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Public Standards: C# 2, Java 0

timothy posted more than 11 years ago | from the fast-track-authority dept.

Microsoft 608

TheAncientHacker writes "While Java coders wait for SUN to be willing to accept any public standards for the Java language and runtime, Microsoft's C# and its underlying CLI, already standardized by ECMA, are about to get a second certification. This time by by the granddaddy of certification groups, the ISO."

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What's up Sun??!! (5, Insightful)

ChaoticChaos (603248) | more than 11 years ago | (#5645985)

I love Java and earn a living coding J2EE systems, but Sun's posture on not creating a public standard for Java is just ridiculous.

It immediately creates the notion that Java is a proprietary language.

Hard to believe that Microsoft's new language has two public standards and Sun's language has none. Is something wrong with this picture? Microsoft is starting to appear as a reasonable and responsible company and Sun appears as stumbling around in the dark.

Re:What's up Sun??!! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5646026)

get a reak job, java monkey.

Re:What's up Sun??!! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5646065)

get a reak job, java monkey.

Get a reak spellchecker.

Re:What's up Sun??!! (-1, Offtopic)

kingkade (584184) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646068)

get a reak [sic] job, java monkey.

yeah, he could spell-check your posts full-time.

"gee boss, you sure are an idiot...thanks for the paycheck!"

Re:What's up Sun??!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5646066)

That's because it is a proprietary language.

Bonehead. How can you get paid for using it and not know anything about it?

Re:What's up Sun??!! (3, Insightful)

Richard W.M. Jones (591125) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646076)

It immediately creates the notion that Java is a proprietary language.

Which it is, or might as well be. Until gcj came along (and it's not there yet) there were no free implementations of Java, and any development you did could at any time have been razed had Sun decided not to give their JVM away for free.

Compare to C - multiple free, high-quality implementations. Compare to Perl - one extremely high-quality free implementation and it's a considerably better thought out and more powerful language to boot.

Rich.

Rich.

Re:What's up Sun??!! (2, Informative)

elemur (7613) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646181)

Not true.. Kaffe has been around for a long time.. Blackdown has had their Java VM for a while too. Those are just two open source ones off the top of my head.

Other VMs include IBM's.. very good quality and speed there. Its free, but not open source. Even Microsoft has their VM, though its not worth much anymore.

How does Sun have the only JVM again?

Re:What's up Sun??!! (4, Interesting)

Richard W.M. Jones (591125) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646248)

You've obviously not tried to use Kaffe for any serious work.

Blackdown is a port of Sun's JVM.

You might have mentioned IBM's JVM, but that's just as proprietary as Sun's.

Remember that the JVM includes libraries, and without a complete set of working, compatible, debugged libraries your Java development is basically fscked.

Rich.

Re:What's up Sun??!! (4, Insightful)

Jord (547813) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646197)

There are multiple free implementations of Java. Have been for years. Sun could attempt to stop providing a JVM but that would not stop the community. In fact Sun's implementation of the JVM is one of the slower versions out there.

Java may appear to be proprietary to the non-informed but the programmers know better.

Re:What's up Sun??!! (2, Informative)

Surak (18578) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646227)

Which it is, or might as well be. Until gcj came along (and it's not there yet) there were no free implementations of Java, and any development you did could at any time have been razed had Sun decided not to give their JVM away for free.

Ummm...Blackdown [blackdown.org] ?

This is somewhat of a smoke screen.. (5, Insightful)

elemur (7613) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646101)

My understanding is that MS is bringing some components to the standards orgs so they can say that, but that their environment will still heavily leverage internal and private APIs.

So, you have to differentiate between a baseline CLR environment, and the actual programming APIs that would be used to build on top of this. .NET is not the CLR.. .NET is the CLR, APIs, Libraries, and so forth.. therefore only a small part of the environment is open.

Who wants to bet that this is more for marketing than it is for getting cross platform capabilities? Without MS opening all libraries and APIs *AND* approving any patent use they have on those components to other systems, a public standard on CLR means nothing.

Sun should bring Java to a standards org, but at the same time, its well documented, understood, and there are no hidden parts to the JVM/Runtime. You aren't going to see that with .NET.

Re:This is somewhat of a smoke screen.. (2, Insightful)

seosamh (158550) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646174)

I'm not an apologist for MS, but they will do what they think they have to do to win in the market they believe they're in.

The Office 11 beta is supposed to show a much stronger commitment to "openness" in the use of XML file formats than anything to come from MS before now. Working with standards bodies such as ECMA and ISO shows some level of commitment on the part of MS to cooperate with the other vendors and the customers in the market today. The recent drop off in "Linux is cancer" remarks show that MS has learned that policy won't fly.

These are interesting times. Don't count MS out just becasue you don't like some of their past products or practices.

I run Linux and OS/2 at home, but I like being able to afford feeding my kids and my cats, so I'm not going to ignore what one of the market's largest vendors does.

Re:What's up Sun??!! (1)

Anonvmous Coward (589068) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646130)

"Microsoft is starting to appear as a reasonable and responsible company and Sun appears as stumbling around in the dark."

Makes you wonder why that Borg icon's there, duddn't it?

Flame 2.0 (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5646145)

Get a real job, Java monkey!

Re:What's up Sun??!! (5, Insightful)

robbyjo (315601) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646186)

Hard to believe that Microsoft's new language has two public standards and Sun's language has none. Is something wrong with this picture? Microsoft is starting to appear as a reasonable and responsible company and Sun appears as stumbling around in the dark.

Well, it's all about control. Sun fears that once it place the language into standard bodies, it loses the control over the language. Whereas, as you may notice, there are lots of other language features need to be implemented. One of them is genericity / templates -- that is due out for Java 1.5. If Sun put Java into standard, it cannot make the modification easily.

Moreover, Sun also fears of dominant groups (read: Microsoft) may overwhelm or sway the language away from their original intents.

Re:What's up Sun??!! (5, Insightful)

be-fan (61476) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646200)

Eh. Microsoft's new language is about as "standard" as C++ without the Standard Library. It's a castrated version of a real language. Further, C# _as_a_language_ isn't anything special. It's a cut-down version of C++ with native support for properties and delegation. The whole point of Java and .NET aren't the C# and Java languages, but the huge class libraries. Until those are standardized, ISO C# doesn't mean much.

C++4EVER (1)

Ken@WearableTech (107340) | more than 11 years ago | (#5645990)

Nice to see Microsoft take C# to the ECMA/ISO. Surprised that Java is not yet. What I last heard, years ago, was that Sun was going to the ECMA then ISO, what happened?

I'll now be putting my asbestos fire suit on to withstand the flames.

good for them (-1, Redundant)

davevt5 (30696) | more than 11 years ago | (#5645993)

Way to go MS!

(go ahead mod me down... if you do then you're a hypocrit because Sun never got ISO approval for Java...)

Re:good for them (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5646017)

You use your +1 karma bonus on this crap?

Re:good for them (1, Offtopic)

kingkade (584184) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646039)

i think you'd only get modded down because your post reads like a cheerleader. in fact i imaged you in pom-poms and a sexy mini-skirt jumpong up and down in a fervor. sorry, man.

Re:good for them (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5646049)

how about we mod you down because the only content your post has is a weak attempt to piss people off followed by a faulty argument for those good people who clean up the garbage arround here and allow us to read comments that have some sort of constructive purpose. It would be fine if you were elaborating, but "Way to go MS!" is a blatant troll.

Re:good for them (1)

The AtomicPunk (450829) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646097)

I think it might be time for you to lookup hypocrite in the dictionary. Do note the correct spelling.

Java (5, Funny)

athakur999 (44340) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646011)

Sun hasn't submitted Java to any standards groups because they they've haven't finalized their handling of the new evil bit yet.

Oops, sorry, wrong day.

Re:Java (1)

AndroidCat (229562) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646230)

There's no such thing as a bit of evil. (Everyone knows evil is real.)

YEAH! ISO! (1, Flamebait)

mekkab (133181) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646013)

Because ISO standards REALLY MEAN something!

Like that 7 layer OSI protocol stack you use...
you do use the ISO OSI 7 protocol stack, don't you?

TCP/IP what? TCP/IP WHO?

De juris Standards can take a flying leap. DE FACTO is all that matters.

(P.S.- yes, TCP/IP I think has been accepted by ISO, because nobody wanted to play with their protocol)

Re:YEAH! ISO! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5646028)

You are a fucking idiot.

Re:YEAH! ISO! (-1)

Grape Smuggler (569838) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646082)

You obviously understand very little about ISO.

Now fuck off and die.

SlashDot SELLOUT (0)

Moschaef (624770) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646015)

Interesting... This appears with an add to try Microsoft Visual Studio . net.

Ok (1, Funny)

EinarH (583836) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646025)

Quickly now, someone please find an angle to this story that makes Microsoft evil!
After all, this is /.

Re:Ok (0)

Blaine Hilton (626259) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646113)

Well the only think I can think of is they paid them off to get approved. Although Sun is really falling behind here...

If you insist. (2, Insightful)

burgburgburg (574866) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646134)

First, C# and CLI are only a subset of the .Net framework. Microsoft is using this standardization as a cover. It allows them to approach upper management (PHB) with certificates that are impressive to that sort and use them as FUD clubs against Java. The fact is that both are subsets of .Net and require a whole collection of non-submitted, proprietary components to be functional.

What do I win?

Re:If you insist. (1)

kingkade (584184) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646238)

FUD clubs

WTF? Are you making this shit up as you go along?

C# is patented but the CLI *is* the framework. A compiler can emit CLI from java source instead of JVM byte codes. It's not a "subset" and doesn't need "proprietary components to be functional". Your just recycling everything you've ever heard.

What do I win?

A beating, hopefully

'fud clubs', jesus christ... Don't hurt yourself stepping onto the wagon kid.

Re:Ok (3, Informative)

joe_bruin (266648) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646223)

alright, i'll bite:

the ecma has basically been owned my microsoft since ms gave them a bundle of grants in the mid 90's. in exchange for this, ecma had to rubberstamp a 'standard' on microsoft's javascript (jscript). it is now a standard ("ecma script"), whereas the competing netscape version could not claim standards compliance (at the time, at least). ecma approval for ms is alot like your mom telling you that you're good looking.
as for iso certification, while sun was trying to stop the language from getting fragmented (and destroyed, especially by microsoft), ms are the masters of embrace and extend, so they're not really too worried about it. besides, ms expects that theirs will be the leading implementation on the windows platform, whereas sun was trying to make the os unimportant. sun's approach definitely could have been done smarter, but let's not be confused, this standard means nothing.

As much as I bash on MS (2, Interesting)

japhar81 (640163) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646029)

This is great news. At least the language will be standardized. Now if they'd just do the same for all the libraries, I'd be really happy.

Imagine what we could do with an actual, standardized, GUI library system (and please dont bring up X*Shudder*, thats not a standard, its a beowulf cluster[fuck].

Re:As much as I bash on MS (0)

Xerithane (13482) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646080)

This is great news. At least the language will be standardized. Now if they'd just do the same for all the libraries, I'd be really happy.


I just started playing around with Mono and C# and it is really nice. I'm glad to see it going for the ISO cert, because it proves that Microsoft is actually playing fair with it's new technology.

Gtk#, C#, oh yeah.

If they submitted the libraries ... (1)

burgburgburg (574866) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646184)

then they wouldn't be able to lock in the gullible who jumped in with both eyes closed when they heard about the ECMA and ISO standardization.

They've no intention of submitting the libraries. Do you development and find out what it's worth without paying your tribute to Microsoft.

hmmmm... (4, Funny)

st0rmcold (614019) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646036)


Grab a cup of c#???

Not the same ring to it :)

Re:hmmmm... (2, Funny)

Lemmy Caution (8378) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646048)

No, but you can have a concerto in C#, while a concerto in java would be gamelan.

Standards? (2, Insightful)

DeadSea (69598) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646043)

Number of times per release you expect companies to purposfully break standards to hurt competitors: Microsoft 2, Sun 0

What good are open standards if your implementation is the only one? In addition to Sun, IBM has a Java implementation and there is an open source implementation and library set that is getting pretty good.

Actually, I wouldn't put it past Sun to break their standards either, but what good is Slashdot if you can't bash Microsoft.

Re:Standards? (5, Informative)

LanikMueller (649432) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646091)

Ever heard of Mono? Ever heard of Apache.Net? You need to do some more homework....MS only implemented .Net on their platform, but other groups are doing so on other platforms.

Re:Standards? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5646173)

Don't forget Rotor - the shared source CLI - Rotor's license is for non-commercial use only, but its license doesn't taint your skills, so you can learn off of Rotor and make your own GNU/GPL implementation.

That isn't so bad now is it.

Re:Standards? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5646194)

Don't forget dotgnu as well....

Re:Standards? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5646244)

Oh sorry, I forgot. :-)

Re:Standards? (1)

Glock27 (446276) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646165)

What good are open standards if your implementation is the only one?

True, plus now that ISO has accepted the base version of C#, I'm sure Microsoft will busily add some new keywords and other syntactic incompatibilities in order to lock people in to the MS implementation - all in the name of "innovation" and "customer convenience" of course... ;-)

As noted before and since, C# and CLI are ... (1)

burgburgburg (574866) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646044)

only a subset of the .Net Framework that makes it possible to share data with applications on other operating systems. No software for defining a GUI, no database access. Pesky little things like that.

Re:As noted before and since, C# and CLI are ... (1)

Billly Gates (198444) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646110)

Not to mention people who use C# on Windows do it because of the .net runtime which makes all the languages integrate together. Also the built libraries are a big improvement from the awefull MFC and the win32 api.

This is patented by Microsoft and also you do not get this benefit of this when using c# on other platforms because .net is not ported. There is no way to share objects like their is in the one Microsoft way.

I think what this is, is marketware for PHBs who are concerned that c#.net might mean expensive proprietary lock-in.

Microsoft will claim they are an open standard unlike that proprietary Java and mention borland is also switching to c#/net. Then after using the .net framework later on will be sucked into renting their own software for the privledge of running .net.

Perfect trap. C# maybe open but .net?

Nice to say patented standards (3, Insightful)

Billly Gates (198444) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646045)

The Sco lawsuit agaisn't IBM is proof that anything that looks the original is subject to copyright claim. The main argument used is that SCO is the owner of SysV technology.

C# is not only copyrighted but also patented.

You can iso it and declare it as free as you want to but its still proprietary in my book for this reason. Likewise you can get a pig and put lipstick, makeup, eyeshadow, and a thong on it and call it Britney Spears but its still a pig.

Re:Nice to say patented standards (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5646150)

Yeah, but it could be a Brittany Speers with 14 breasts...

Re:Nice to say patented standards (5, Funny)

Mendax Veritas (100454) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646243)

you can get a pig and put lipstick, makeup, eyeshadow, and a thong on it and call it Britney Spears but its still a pig.
That, however, is a distinction without a difference.

oh well (5, Interesting)

AssFace (118098) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646046)

I guess I'll just stop coding in it.

that's too bad really - I liked java.

seriously - why should we care? does the code allow me to do what I want? yes.
and done - I don't care about no stinking standards evaluation.

If we're keeping score (0, Troll)

ledbetter (179623) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646047)

People using java: 4,000,000
People using .net: 2

it doesn't need standards, it is the standard!

Re:If we're keeping score (5, Interesting)

ergo98 (9391) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646074)

Most Microsoft shops have or will switch to .NET (it's a natural progression), and of course Microsoft shops comprise the majority of "shops" out there. Indeed the most telling evidence of .NETs stunning market presence can be seen at your local bookshop: Already there are probably 2x the number of .NET books than there are Java books (seriously, go take a look).

Re:If we're keeping score (3, Interesting)

ChaoticChaos (603248) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646136)

Could the fact that there are twice as many books for C# indicate that it's twice as hard to use? ;-)

Re:If we're keeping score (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5646206)

You might want to tell that to my customers, who are busy hiring us out for J2EE work and looking at Microsoft as a desktop OS and Office Suite vendor only.

Re:If we're keeping score (3, Interesting)

PseudoThink (576121) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646152)

Many of my college classes were taught using Java as the programming language, so I had a few years of experience with it in school. I've been using .NET since it was released, and it's been so much easier programming in VB.NET and C# than it ever was in Java, it's not even funny. Despite their problems, the Visual Studio .NET IDE and MSDN Library have no equivalent. They are totally awesome.

Re:If we're keeping score (1)

Jord (547813) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646225)

If you depend upon the IDE to determine what is a good language then please stay with MS. Real programmers dont need you.

Re:If we're keeping score (2, Interesting)

papadiablo (609676) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646182)

Well add one more to .NET because I've been using it for the past 4 months instead of C/C++ or Java.

Anytime a new technology is introduced there are always going to be more people using the old technology. That doesn't make the old technology better, nor does being new make the new technology better. Your point isn't valid considering how new .NET is and how long Java has been around. If it were then everyone would still be buying VHS tapes instead of DVDs just because it was the "standard" when DVDs were introduced.

Too bad C# is pantented (0, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5646051)

So is Java, but really how can you call something standard if it's patented? Just look at the whole rambus mess regarding patents it holds against sdram. Patents undermine standards by allowing one corporation monopoly control over anybody who attempts to implement the so-called standard, thus leading to diminishing number of people wishing to implement the specification, leading to technology fragmentation all the same as if the specification was proprietary.

Crappy Crap Crap. (-1, Flamebait)

ender-iii (161623) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646056)

MS can pay to have their shit standardized all they want, it's not going to make people use it. It's still shit, just standardized shit.

Umm... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5646057)

Just a quick question for "TheAncientHacker" (The guy who posted this story.

Do you perchance work for Microsoft or one of it's affiliates?

It doesn't matter (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5646061)

Certification doesn't really matter one way or the other..

ISO standards - so what? (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5646063)

How much development is still done in "regular" C and C++?

Who actually owns copies of those standards? I know I don't - simply because they charge several hundred bucks a copy.

As the artical says: The academic community benefits perhaps more from the published specifications to do computer science research than do companies.

Academic research is fine, but when I'm looking for new programmers I would much rather have real-world experience. How many academic programs you wrote as an undergrad (or even a grad student) had to run for hours or even weeks and maybe with direct user interaction and not crash? Standards don't help you learn how to code that.

Re:ISO standards - so what? (1)

Dthoma (593797) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646166)

How much development is still done in "regular" C and C++?

Who actually owns copies of those standards? I know I don't - simply because they charge several hundred bucks a copy.

You should have a pretty good idea of the ISO standards for C/C++ if you're a competent coder. Plus, you should use a compiler which tells you when you violate them [gnu.org] . Adding -ansi -pedantic -Wall to your gcc commands can go a long way towards making long-lasting, proper C and C++ code.

Re:ISO standards - so what? (2, Funny)

s20451 (410424) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646241)

How many academic programs you wrote as an undergrad (or even a grad student) had to run for hours or even weeks and maybe with direct user interaction and not crash?

As a grad student, I would say, pretty much daily. Some of the numerical integrations or monte carlo simulations that I have written have run for a week or more.

Academic Java programs that don't crash (1)

anarxia (651289) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646245)

Before submitting a Java program make sure you have a try catch(Exception) block somewhere to catch all exceptions. No crash! With C and C++ programs you are pretty much screwed since you have to debug them and catch most of the memory leaks. Seriously though, you can't always blame students for turning in programs with bugs. You can't expect anyone to make a quality program with impossible deadlines.

Belfunge (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5646072)

Belfunge, now with command arguments!
Nobody cares?

Platforms C# works on (4, Insightful)

AlgUSF (238240) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646077)

Platforms for C#: 0 Windows .NET is still .NOT
Platforms for Java: Windows, Solaris, Linux, AIX, Irix, Tru64, ........


At my university:
Classes tought with C#: 0
Classes tought with Java: 6

Re:Platforms C# works on (1)

Billly Gates (198444) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646137)

Unfortunatly both MIT and Cornell are Microsoft shop Universities now. They explicitly use c#. Microsoft is paying many universities today to use their products so when students graduate they will pick Microsoft based solutions.

Today we have so called brilliant Computer science graduates who know b-tree algorithms and recursive mathmatics but do not how to login to a unix terminal.

Re:Platforms C# works on (5, Informative)

stratjakt (596332) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646151)

Spoken like a MS hater who isn't familiar with the products.

The .NET framework has been available for Win 2k and XP for some time, and VS.net has been advertised right here on slashdot forever. .NET server was renamed Windows 2003 because it was confusing people like you.

A language is not an operating system. Saying .NET only works on Win 2003 is like saying Java only works on Solaris.

Re:Platforms C# works on (1)

SteveX (5640) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646177)

Huh?

I've used C# on Linux and on a number of Windows platforms (including handhelds). While it's not on as many as Java, it's still > 0.

- Steve

Standards?? (2, Funny)

stevenp (610846) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646088)

The good thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from.

To be read: "I don't care if C# is standard if it is a crappy language"

April fools! (1)

stratjakt (596332) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646094)

We all know that microsoft is inherently bad and sun is inherently good.

This is the stupidest April 1st post yet! And a day late!

I like C# more than I like Java though. Hopefully actual-factual standards will push it's adoption forward.

2 Standards and still a mound of manure (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5646098)

Yea, and there are way more MS Certified anythings than Sun. Does that mean they know their buts from a hole in the ground?

Go take your VB or C# and write a virus or something. .Net scales like a rock, and isn't even supported by Microsoft in its own products.

But Java is Open(ish), and there is plenty of documentation on what is was, what it is, and what it will be. Depending on the weather C# and .Net tend to be a moving target costing developers (Yea those of us that don't have money because all are jobs are going to India with the blessing of M$ AND Sun.) a ton of cash. Java Free!

Get a clue, get a job, and read a book to learn what programming really is. (Long live C, ASM, and Java). ;)

-US Coder Supporter.

While Python coders wait (1)

LarryRiedel (141315) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646103)

While Java coders wait for SUN to be willing to accept any public standards

I am not waiting for Java or Python to be accepted as a "public standard". I am confident in the trustees of these languages/platforms.

Larry

MOD PARENT DOWN -1 FLAMEBAIT ! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5646106)

Some lameness-filter stuff

I hope ISO does better than they did with C++ (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5646112)

Where they took the ANSI standards, and adopted them verbatim.

Except for the appendices. You know, the appendices that the main body refers to? They basically just dropped those from thier standard.

So the ISO C++ standard was issued with references to non-existent parts.

Really useful.

What's the big fscking deal? (1)

batlock (116547) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646114)

Other languages that are not standardized by the ECMA include Perl, Python, and PHP. They are still being used an awful lot.
Sounds to me that an ECMA certificate is just some PR to impress the clueless PHBs.

Like the old saying goes... (1)

Viral Fly-by (662186) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646118)

"The good thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from..." One possible reason MS could be pushing standards for C# is that if there is a standard, they can blame errors in C# code on non-compliance rather than the inherent faults of the language.

.NET trap (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5646120)

The way I understand it, MS is happy to make C# a public standard while retaining control of the only thing that makes C# interesting -- the .NET architecture.

Still, I don't see why Sun would care if the Java language and it's JVM mechanism were public (as opposed to the spec for Java infrastructure components, corresponding to .NET)

Re:.NET trap (..mod parent up! ) (1)

Billly Gates (198444) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646196)

This is true.

This is marketware and brouchware for PHBs who hear critisim of c# from their employees regarding expensive vendor lock in.

Microsoft is trying to look like the good guy supporting an open, portable standard but in the mean time Microsoft's c# clr is dependant on .net. Once brainwashed the developers using c# will use .net and all of the sudden be trapped and end up renting their own software.

I heard arguments that Java is also patented but at least you can trust the jvm. Here Microsoft is opening the language syntax but keeping the actual compiler under stict controll.

So what... (3, Insightful)

jkauzlar (596349) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646124)

I think its great that Microsoft is doing this and its what Sun should have done at the start, but it doesn't mean a thing. C# (on top of CLR) is still only available on one platform and the underlying virtual machine is still proprietary.

Because of its bindings with other MS technologies, C# code will never be fully portable to other platforms and so the ISO standard is meaningless unless you are already a Windows-only programmer. If you ARE a windows-only programmer, then you can at least be assured MS won't deprecate the entire language with their next version of .NET.

Microsoft turning around (3, Interesting)

batkid (448363) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646127)

It seems like Microsoft is trying to change their image from industry bully to industry team player. I have just been to an academic presentation of .NET and I must admit that MS studio .NET is very easy to learn and use, as well as being standards based.

The problem that I see with Microsoft is their attitude of Windows being the only operating system. The entire .NET platform is built around Windows and the "Write in any language, run on windows" idea is not very attractive at least to me.

You may argue that MS has already ported .NET to other OS (the rotor project). However, rotor is not meant to be used in production, which makes it rather useless in real life.

If you look at the Java camp, however, things aren't that great either. The tools are generally not as well integrated and Sun is trying too hard to control Java.

So, in conclusion, I'm not sure which is better. For now, I am staying with Java for my courses. But the battle is far from over :)

Re:Microsoft turning around (1)

Billly Gates (198444) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646235)

.net is not standard compliant. Only a fraction of c# is. Its a sneaky move by Microsoft to show that they are the good guys opening up a whole platform but really they are not. .NET is a huge improvment technically over mfc and the win32api but I will never use it. I like my freedom and refuse to pay Microsoft to run or write my own software. Microsoft is seriously looking into renting and with paladium mixed with .net the match has been made. Before you know it your own computer wont run anything unless its signed by Ms.

I refuse to support a company who has these kinds of ethics. I do not care if .net solves world hunger and prevents war.

Standards? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5646139)

What value is a 'standard' if the whole thing is tied up with patents? From what I've read, it sounds like people who use the standard to implement competing technology will be sued for patent infringment(Mono?).

I'm no MS basher, but I just don't see that there's any point to the standardization process if no one else is allowed to implement it, unless of course it's just PR.

does it change anything? (0)

drgroove (631550) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646229)

The article states that MS is seeking ISO standardization to open up specific markets to their .NET & C# products.

For what its worth, does certification really change anything?

Java is still Java - you can still deploy apps written in Java on any OS running a JRE, vs. C# which requires Windows.

If you choose your technologies based on 'the right tool for the job' criteria, standardization doesn't really factor in here...

It really does seem as though MS is seeking ECMA/ISO for 1.) PR and 2.) More gov/etc markets

Perhaps Sun hasn't sought ECMA/ISO as it doesn't need it to promote Java? Sun has sought ISO in the past - Sparc as an ISO, for instance - as Sun was (at the time) trying to promote Sparc as an 'industry standard' chipset, in the hopes that other manufacturers would produce Sparc-type chips, which would in turn drive down costs and give Sun additional customers for their OS & software.

I just don't see the benefit in Sun seeking ECMA/ISO for Java... they don't need the PR (Java has had plenty of that over the years), and they don't need new markets (Java markets are born seemingly overnight, out of the ether).

I think Sun, by using the JCP, gets exactly what they want - a perception and modicum of community/3rd party involvement in the spec evolution, as well as tighter control over what goes in the Java spec.

Not sure we should care . . . (1)

ygbsm (158794) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646142)

Seriously, I know that open standards are good, yadda-yadda-yadda, but seriously, why care. Java is widely developed and the lack of a "standard" that can be "embraced and extended" isn't necessarily a bad thing. As long as it is Sun Java and not ISO Java 2003 - Sun remains in the drivers seat, and I realize this heresy, but sometimes someone with the authority to say "Yes we'll include this or no we won't" is a good thing(tm) -(Think Linus for the kernel or Larry for Perl)

Stability and Control (4, Insightful)

roca (43122) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646143)

Just getting the ISO stamp on the documentation is of limited value. There are three real issues:

Will Microsoft adhere strictly to the specification? In particular, if there is a bug in their code that causes them to violate the spec, will they fix the bug for spec conformance, or will they keep the bug for "compatibility"? If the latter, then the real spec is their source code and the ISO spec is irrelevant.

Who has control over language development? It's pretty clearly Microsoft. If the ISO only gets to rubber-stamp Microsoft's decisions after the fact, then that's a lot less useful than Sun's Java Community Process.

Will they be increasing the scope of what is specified so that most applications can run on a standardized platform? If everyone's using Windows.Forms and ASP.NET then standardizing the rest of the platform but not those components doesn't help anyone.

With Microsoft and standards it pays to be suspicious. It's typical for them to trumpet standards loudly when they're behind in the marketplace and then suddenly forget about standards once they've achieved dominance. Of course it's not hard to see why they do this.

It's just another M$ marketing move. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5646155)

After all, M$ is the triumph of marketing over technology.

Next thing you know they'll be submitting the old .BAT file language to ISO.

Certification is irrelevant (5, Insightful)

Dr. Bent (533421) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646157)

3rd party certification does not offer any protection against abuse by Microsoft (or any other company, i.e. SUN)

Q: What is Microsoft trying to do with .NET?
A: Take Java's market share on the server side.

Microsoft already owns the client side market...the goal of .NET is to try to crack into the server side market by offering a "cross-platform" solution. But how would a cross-platform solution benefit Microsoft? It wouldn't. Microsoft is just trying to gain credability and give the appearence of openness, and hide the fact that the real battle here is about implementations, not specifications.

Here's their plan:
1) Get CLI certified by the ECMA, the ISO, and anyone else who can stamp a label on it.
2) Tell everyone that since it's a public standard, anyone can implement it.
3) Implement the spec for the Windows platform, and add lots of platform specific functionality that was not included in the spec. Note that platform specific features are explicitly allowed in .NET, and actively discouraged in Java (for good reason!)
4) Pay developers to write back-end applications using the Windows specific "enhancements", thereby preventing those applications from being able to run on any platform but Windows.
5) Sell lots of copies of Windows 2003/.NET Server because that's the only "real" platform to run .NET apps

By patenting their platform specific extensions, Microsoft can prevent anyone from implementing them on other platforms, all the while claiming that .NET apps are portable because of projects like Mono.

Result: Microsoft owns the server side like they do the client-side.

C# and CLI not important, OS services are (1)

bigman921 (265507) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646170)

This doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot for cross platform standards. If C# (and the .net runtime) run on linux, does that mean I can take a web-app written using MTS and Windows Forms and run them on linux? NO. This is like saying that if VB were ported to linux we would have tons of new programmers wanting to use linux! J2EE is enough of a standard that I can write an EJB app and start it on JBoss and then move to BEA or WebSphere (not a nock on JBoss or which is better, just an example). Right now if I want top build a web-application on the .NET framework with all the bells and whistles that are available for it, I need to use windows. ANd it isn't even an issue that Mono hasn't caught up yet, because M$ has already said they are petenting the good parts. This is a PR sham, nothing more.

oh yeah... (3, Insightful)

lfourrier (209630) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646188)

and javascript was standardized as ECMA script. Great. Nice langage. But the DOM was not. So, completely useless in term of web standardization.
With C#, it is the same. the langage is standardized.
The necessary surrounding is not.
So MS can say they respect standard on one part, and provide extensions to make those standard useful. Very good and convincing discourse for the suits. But the detail is that the surrounding is not standardized (by somebody else than MS).
So you cannot use it freely in mono or something else with the same results than in windows. and the devil is the details...

Another note: C# is a langage, java is a platform.
They are not in the same league.
If you want standard java, ask for standard .net, not standard c#.

a warning about microsoft "standards" (1)

deander2 (26173) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646198)


ISO certification on a microsoft language isn't worth anything more than the marketing-speak that will eventually come of it.

if any of you have programmed C++ with Visual Studio and any other compiler, you know how broken MS's ISO/ANSI implementations actually are. do you think this is by accident? because they can't figure the standards out?

no, they're broken because the less people can port code from one system to another, the less control they have. MS will get the standards, and NOT FOLLOW THEM in their own implementations, therefore crippling efforts for others to implement compatable systems.

a word to the wise for anyone trumpeting MS's standards here. you are being dupped. java is now and will continue to be a more open language than C#, and here's to hoping sun will continue their current trend to opening up the platform/VM more and more... :)

BDF (1)

cpn2000 (660758) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646211)

OK so Java C# is standardized, and Java is not, BIG FURRY DEAL. Can anyone convince me that not being standardized has hurt Java in any way, or convince me that just because C# is standardized, MS is going to be any more open about their underlying technologies. I mean what's to stop them from creating and using undocumented libraries and APIs, and screwing over any competition in the exact same manner that they've always done.

Java.clone() (1)

dmand (578804) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646215)

So now we have a standaradized Java clone. Big whoop. It's still better to have the real thing. C# == J++

Apples and Oranges (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5646222)

To pretend that Sun and Microsoft face the same pitfalls in standardizing their interfaces is ridiculous. Your head is in the sand.

Microsoft has the freedom to do this without the trepidation that a 99% Desktop Monopoly will come along and hijack the standardization process. Sun keeping control of Java in the early days was what saved it from Microsoft's very long arms. They tried to change the standard anyway and ended up in court. The damage that they did was significant but not fatal. I think the time has come for Sun to let go of Java, there is enough forward momentum and existing code that MS can't touch it. I am afraid though that Sun will get increasingly desperate in the coming years, as they try to hang on to Solaris over Linux. Java may be the last thing left in their quiver.

Let sun keep control of Java I say. (1)

forgetmenot (467513) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646224)

Quite frankly I don't think there is really that big of a deal if Sun does or doesn't follow suit with Java. In fact, to be quite honest, I would prefer to see Sun keep the control it has over Java. As long as they do, then their standard will REMAIN the standard. I understand the arguments for ECMA/ISO (at least I think I do) but there's a lot to be said about a single source of control when standardization is really important. After all, I (like many others here) make my living with Java and it's important to me that my skills are transferrable to different companies with different architectures. For instance, I no longer put C++ on my resume because it means nothing. Borland C++ is different from MS C++ is different from gnu C++ and that's just the Intel architecture. Its supposedly controlled by a standards body. Whoohoo.

One question (1)

vlad_petric (94134) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646226)

Are they going to standardize pattented parts as well ?

Openness is a lot more important than standardization, and in this respect Sun is doing much better with Java.

Pretty amazing, but not suprised (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5646232)

All of a sudden we hear everyone shout that standards aren't that important anyway but we should be looking at the user base of java. Incredible. Isn't it exactly this that you guys slant MS for?

Java standard (3, Interesting)

stevenp (610846) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646237)

AFAIK the Java platform(language, JVM and standard libraries) were submitted for ECMA standardization not long ago. Some time later, however, SUN took an suprising action and notified it is stopping the process, because some of the big boys were trying to destroy the standard by pushing it in the wrong direction. The Microsoft name was mentioned several times, together with their J++ Java implementation. So, SUN withdraw Java from the standartization process in order to save it.
The real problem was that Microsoft had too big infkuence on ECMA and therefore it could easily turn the standardization direction in the pro-MS way. I believe that Microsoft has big influence over ISO also.
Maybe it was better that Java was not standardized, but instead the Java Community Process was created which was the better way to develop Java for the future.

Yes..... (2, Insightful)

IamTheRealMike (537420) | more than 11 years ago | (#5646240)

.... and ECMA is a credible standards body because?

Firstly, they allow RAND licensing. Now, Microsoft have said for free implementations the RAND terms are basically zero, but I don't think that's binding.

Secondly, IMO the word "standard" is so overused these days that it's useless. I even once saw a website advertising a "proprietary standard", whatever that is. How can something that is:

a) Constantly being extended by one company, with apparently little or no consulation with other vendors and

b) Has only one complete implementation

even qualify for being standardised in the first place?

Don't get me wrong, this isn't an anti-redmond post, it's more bemoaning the weakening of the term "standard", when what they really mean is "publicly available specification".

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