Looking for Linux Help When You've Lost Your Way? 85
ChesireKat asks: "I'm interested in knowing where people go for their Linux help/questions/needs. It seems that most IRC users will laugh at you, kick you, or just make you feel stupid because you're not quite as smart as they are (irc.nullnet.net is pretty good, they are usually willing to help). Forums are nicer about it, but most of the time, no one quite knows. Man pages always work, but it so time consuming, and sometimes after hours of searching, your still just as clueless as when you started. I'm interesting in knowing where other people find answers to the questions you just can't seem to figure out."
Mailing lists (Score:3, Informative)
Rgds
Rus
The Linux Documentation Project (Score:4, Informative)
Is it really so bad? (Score:4, Informative)
Is it really so bad? I'm on OPN (or whatever it's called now, freenode?) generally, and while questions frequently don't get answered, I rarely see abuse. Same for mailing lists or Usenet. Usenet is a frequently overlooked resource that has the added bonus of being easily searchable for future people with the same issue.
Frankly, the highest percentage of stupid, abusive people I see is here.
Re:Is it really so bad? (Score:1)
On at least half a dozen occasions, some newbie would ask "how do i do foo", and invariably the answer would come back from someone or other
"su to root, cd to / and do rm -rf *"
The first few times I saw this, I thought it was just a joke, and that everyone knew better than to do this but after a few minutes,
Re:Is it really so bad? (Score:2)
Unfortunately, yes, it's still that bad. My girlfriend needed some help with grub on Red Hat 7.3 that I couldn't answer. Together we figured out what she needed to ask, got a rough idea of what she was looking for, and then she asked on IRC.
The answers she got -- on several servers -- were laughable. The alpha geeks told her to uninstall Windows, stop using Red Hat, go back to Windows, switch to Slackware, and (my favorite) RTFM.
She eventually got the answer -- from an old fr
Re:Is it really so bad? (Score:2)
IRC was worse than useless to her, and apparently to any newbie that pops in.
I dunno about that -- #linuxhelp on freenode is pretty decent, as is #freeswan, #kernelnewbies, #perl and #openembedded (for ipsec, kernel-specific stuff, Perl and anything OpenZaurus, respectively). I think that by far the problem is the attitude of the people asking. I hang out in those channels semi-frequently and over and over again I see people come in and ask questions that could have been answered by practically puttin
mailing lists (Score:1)
linuxquestions.org (Score:2, Informative)
*i have no affiliation with linuxquestions.org, i just find them very useful for questions when i'm at my wits end looking through man pages and a hefty googling.
Re:linuxquestions.org (Score:1)
4 things I do. (Score:3, Insightful)
general Google searching.
focussed Usenet group searching via Google groups especially (eg,: Has anyone gotten oddball video card X to work?).
LDP. Howto's, mini-howto's. Often the general category has specific mention of caveats and gotchas that commonly plague people.
User manuals that came with your distro.
Bleat to a more knowledgeable local user, if they exist. Don't worry too much about imposing because sooner or later someone else will come to you asking for help. But, as with the newsgroups, it looks better to your local guru if you have a concise question and researched the problem fully, showing your wounds proving that you've already crawled over the broken glass of the TFM.
Re:4 things I do. (Score:1)
There's no substitute for reading the LDP materials, howtos and readmes, along with building a library of good books.
The Web sites maintained by organizations supporting various pieces of software are also essential.
Google is at its strongest in troubleshooting a specific error. I just key in the error message (or selected portions) along with my distribution name and version. Almost invariably I find several mailing list posts addressing
Re:4 things I do. (Score:2)
Just my 0.02 of course...
Documentation and community (Score:2, Interesting)
I do not trust Linux man pages or HOWTOs. I have had bad luck with them, in several Linux distributions. For correct (and correctly spelled) documentation, look at OpenBSD [openbsd.org]. Once you've had high-quality documentation, you won't want to go back.
What you have to do is find yourself a good community. A good community is not free; you have to help build it by making contributions of your own.
If you need help with a specific application, try the mailing list(s) dedicated to that particular application. I have
Re:Documentation and community (Score:1)
If you find Linux documentation that's misspelled (it can't be worse than what's typical for Slashdot), contact the maintainer and let them know.
A good community isn't free? In what sense?
Not zealotry, I swear. (Score:4, Informative)
Gentoo Forums [gentoo.org]
Not dicks. Helpful. Usually you'll get your question answered in no time flat.
Re:Not zealotry, I swear. (Score:2)
Re:Not zealotry, I swear. (Score:2)
The dumb rude questions I've seem in other channels sometimes... jeez. Us helpers have no problem with people not knowing - but for christ sake don't demand and get rude, and then wonder why irc seems to be full of only people who are rude back.
Re:Not zealotry, I swear. (Score:1)
I've gotten the impression that when someone asks a question in #linux on a random network its usually the debian users who answer in an elitist tone (I'm not saying all debian users are that way, maybe its just the assholes that go on irc).
Ditto. (Score:2)
Re:Not zealotry, I swear. (Score:1)
I was about to post exactly that. Whether or not you run Gentoo, the people who do generally know their stuff, and there is probably little that you can run into that they haven't already. Search for what you're looking for, and it's probably already been discussed and solved. If not, ask about it, and you're likely to get a bunch of helpful replies in less than an hour.
I've solved many, many a problem on those boards, and gotten many an idea on how to approach other problems. Highly re
have some real irc friends.. (Score:3, Interesting)
_before_ you ask anything, USE GOOGLE! learn to look for information with google, if you got a problem chances are that 20+ people have had it before and looked for help already.
read howto's, they explained everything needed already 5 years ago so i find it hard to believe they wouldnt have enought information today for solving all common 'problems'.
the reason why people can get very pissed fast on irc is that they get very frustated when very many people come to ask simple things they could have gotten the answer with simple google search, and, often the best answer you can give them is to point them at a page you get with simple google search(person z comes to channel and asks how to set finnish characters on linux, you do a quick search and point them to finnish-howto, you get quite fast pissed off thinking that why didnt mr. z type it into google and save both his and your time).
Re:have some real irc friends.. (Score:1)
Where to look (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Where to look (Score:2)
Re:Where to look (Score:2)
Re:Where to look (Score:1)
Honestly, who's still using the SAME computer and browser as they were 3 months ago. All the OS and browser updates after all those years and didn't manage to mangle the links?
Bravo
usenet (Score:3, Insightful)
The Linux Documentation Project is sometimes good, But I often find the info I get there to be either out of date or too specific to a setup that isn't mine.
If I really want to know an app/language/whatever I pony up for the relevant O'Reilly book(s).
brute force (Score:1, Informative)
it out. I must've spent nearly 3 weeks working with openldap when I first started trying to learn it a little over a year ago.
I've never gone to irc for linux help(though I'm on irc everyday). I have participated on mailing lists for several years but in my early days most of what I learned I learned the old fashioned way, brute force.
At times it was painful, and sometimes frustrating but I always figured it out. Start out small, I wouldn't reccomend attack
Google is your friend (Score:1)
I've always had good luck there, most of the questions you're likely to have will have already been answered, you just have to sift the newsgroups a little.
Books! (Score:2)
Most of the time, I don't get good answers from the traditional help channels because if I'm asking it, it's probably not obvious.
The bigger problem, as I see it, is that intermediate users run up against limitations in the tools we use, and don't know quite how to chain the tools together just yet.
Re:Books! (Score:1)
Look local (Score:2)
If you're into Linux, but you're not a self-contained guru, then it would behoove you to make some local connections. Attend users' groups, find people through networks of office-mates, whatever works (try local 2600 meetings even, although they're filled with losers you might stumble on some rare diamonds in the rough there). Find and befreind some local gurus - they probably won't mind you taking em out for a beer to discuss a technical problem with them.
Find a LUG. (Score:4, Informative)
Our LUG has regular installfests and it's not uncommon for people to bring their machines in if they want to do something complicated. Plus LUGs are good places to network professionally, trade hardware, and meet new people.
Btw, MDLUG [mdlug.org] if you're in the Detroit area, stop by our table during Penguicon [slashdot.org] in May.
Re:Find a LUG. (Score:2)
Most Common Sources (Score:2)
Next check
Then check the website of the program, most have at least some sort of online documentation and if you are lucky you will find a web accessible mailing list archive.
If you still have no answer try searching Usenet from Google. If you happen to run into a strange error message you should probably skip the other steps and try this one fi
Userfriendly.org (Score:1)
Google baby!! (Score:2, Informative)
Do your research first (Score:3, Insightful)
Ask an intelligent question and include a little about what you've tried or where you've looked thus far. If you're utterly lost and don't even know where to begin, ask for pointers to things you can read, don't ask for the quick answer.
Any geek worth his DSL line respects and likes helping a body who's making a good and honest effort. But if you come in wanting others to do more work than you've already done on your own, then it's good, honest fun to toy with you a little.
As a bonus: if you take a little abuse without going all non-linear and share a laugh with folks after, you'll probably still get your help in the end. :-)
Deja, note Google... (Score:2)
read read read (Score:1)
I taught myself linux by reading everything I possibly could whether or not it related to my current project at the time. The best place to start is with all of the major HOWTOs and man pages. After that, start buying oreilley books on relevant subjects and read them cover to cover. You shouldn't look for easy answers from IRC/forums because you'll never learn anything except how to solve one specific problem that way.
IRC (Score:2)
Don't ask, "can I ask a question?" Don't assume that people are obligated to help you. Don't assume that people are deliberately ignoring you if you don't get an answer - it could mean that nobody there at the moment knows, so they're all just waiting for someone who does know to give an answer. If you know what you're doing and someone tre
Re:IRC (Score:2)
Gee, you're not a troll at all!
Why do I get the feeling askslashdot is being abused in order to get people to visit an IRC network? :P
Help is a Google Away at Debian-User (Score:2, Interesting)
I for some reason have better luck restricting my search to the mailing list of my prefered distribution. Your mileage may vary.
Peace
LUGs (Score:2, Interesting)
Here's a starter link: Linux User Gro [linux.org]
Just Pretend (Score:2)
Pretend you're a girl.
After they get over their shock, you'll have half a dozen acne-face geeks knocking over their Mountain Dew, pot-bellies a-jiggling to write you your own kernel.
especially if you say that guys who live in their mothers' basements are "way cool".
Re:Just Pretend (Score:2)
She is a girl. Good advice, though!
Re:Just Pretend (Score:2, Funny)
----
Re:Just Pretend (Score:1)
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Re:Just Pretend (Score:2)
She talked to me!
A real girl!
And I didn't have to use Mom's credit card!
a/s/l? Can I write you a kernel? Do you like to go to Star Trek conventions? Wanna see my collection of Spider-Man comix?
Re:Just Pretend (Score:1)
Look ma! its a _REAL_ girl!
Re:Just Pretend (Score:1)
Hours? Bah! (Score:2)
But the real problem is that Linux gurus are not gurus because they know how to answer questions. Linux gurus are gurus because they know how to ask ques
Re:Hours? Bah! (Score:2)
The people who actually know how to find the answers to most Linux questions have spent literally thousands of hours looking at man pages
Sigh, sadly, it's true.
A long time ago I spent more hours than some felons serve behind bars, reading the fscking man pages to some 4.2BSD flavor.
It's a dirty job, but someone's gotta do it.
Re:Hours? Bah! (Score:1)
Rename Ask Slashdot (Score:1)
Re:Rename Ask Slashdot (Score:1)
Lots of valid commentary/explanation.... (Score:3, Informative)
My 2c (Score:3, Informative)
I find the local LUG lists a great place to start when asking for help. They often have very experienced people that are around for helping you. In particular, if you screw it up beyond all recognition, they're close enough that you can ask if they can come and fix the problem.
Google for your problem. Learning how to use google effectively to find answers to your problems is great time saver. Searching for "apache won't work" doesn't get you very far but "apache: can not bind to port 80" is likely to get a much better response out of google.
Look for documentation projects that try and help people out. My personal favourite is the Waikato Linux Users Group wiki [wlug.org.nz] which tries to encampus as much information about linux as it can. It's an excellent place to go and create a page asking a question and have several knowledgable people wiki'ing the answer, and then having it available for everyone else to find when *they* have the same issue.
ask Slashdot (Score:2)
here's what I do: (Score:2, Funny)
Works every time!
PS: Anybody know how I can set up a static host route on my usb0 connection that comes up whenever I plug in my zaurus? Thanks!
On Asking Questions (Score:2, Informative)
First of all: most of the time the trouble isn't that people aren't willing to help. Instead, the problem lies in the fact that people asking things are not asking the right questions (which is most of the time because they have been lazy and not done the basic stuff like reading the tutorials or FAQs). People do not like to ac
Mod parent up (Score:1, Offtopic)
Not to sound repetitive... (Score:2)
1: Find your local LUG
2: I don't care if it's tedious, RTF Man pages!
3: Google.
4: Forums like JustLinux (formerly LinuxNewbie)
5: IRC isn't all that bad. Change servers and find a decent channel filled with helpful people.
forums.gentoo.org (Score:1)
debian-user (Score:1)
Works every time. Not running Debian? Well, you should be.
Proper Googling (Score:2)
Firstly... I'd recommend linux google [google.com] for linux specific questions.
Next, what are searching for? For example, if it's a samba-related error message:
+Samba +"snippet of error message"
will usually get you along the right track. If you find a discussion thread, note the name of the thread, back out to the main discussion, and follow the thread from the beginning.
If it's a more generalized
Linux questions on IRC, I'd rather be crusified (Score:1)
I currently have a server in my bedroom ru