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Where Indie Artists Get Everything

michael posted more than 11 years ago | from the no-middle-man dept.

Music 142

anonicon writes "From the same people who brought you the Web's first corrupt CDs tracking list comes the first site where independent musicians receive 100% of the money that fans pay for their music or merchandise (of course, after the credit card company takes their cut from the payment). More information can be had here or here."

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Bogus (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5814227)

so far nothing to offer.

Technology's Gay! (-1)

ringbarer (545020) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814263)


1. The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race. They have greatly increased the life-expectancy of those of us who live in "advanced" countries, but they have destabilized society, have made life unfulfilling, have subjected human beings to indignities, have led to widespread psychological suffering (in the Third World to physical suffering as well) and have inflicted severe damage on the natural world. The continued development of technology will worsen the situation. It will certainly subject human beings to greater indignities and inflict greater damage on the natural world, it will probably lead to greater social disruption and psychological suffering, and it may lead to increased physical suffering even in "advanced" countries.

2. The industrial-technological system may survive or it may break down. If it survives, it MAY eventually achieve a low level of physical and psychological suffering, but only after passing through a long and very painful period of adjustment and only at the cost of permanently reducing human beings and many other living organisms to engineered products and mere cogs in the social machine. Furthermore, if the system survives, the consequences will be inevitable: There is no way of reforming or modifying the system so as to prevent it from depriving people of dignity and autonomy.

3. If the system breaks down the consequences will still be very painful. But the bigger the system grows the more disastrous the results of its breakdown will be, so if it is to break down it had best break down sooner rather than later.

4. We therefore advocate a revolution against the industrial system. This revolution may or may not make use of violence: it may be sudden or it may be a relatively gradual process spanning a few decades. We can't predict any of that. But we do outline in a very general way the measures that those who hate the industrial system should take in order to prepare the way for a revolution against that form of society. This is not to be a POLITICAL revolution. Its object will be to overthrow not governments but the economic and technological basis of the present society.

5. In this article we give attention to only some of the negative developments that have grown out of the industrial-technological system. Other such developments we mention only briefly or ignore altogether. This does not mean that we regard these other developments as unimportant. For practical reasons we have to confine our discussion to areas that have received insufficient public attention or in which we have something new to say. For example, since there are well-developed environmental and wilderness movements, we have written very little about environmental degradation or the destruction of wild nature, even though we consider these to be highly important.

6. Almost everyone will agree that we live in a deeply troubled society. One of the most widespread manifestations of the craziness of our world is leftism, so a discussion of the psychology of leftism can serve as an introduction to the discussion of the problems of modern society in general.

7. But what is leftism? During the first half of the 20th century leftism could have been practically identified with socialism. Today the movement is fragmented and it is not clear who can properly be called a leftist. When we speak of leftists in this article we have in mind mainly socialists, collectivists, "politically correct" types, feminists, gay and disability activists, animal rights activists and the like. But not everyone who is associated with one of these movements is a leftist. What we are trying to get at in discussing leftism is not so much a movement or an ideology as a psychological type, or rather a collection of related types. Thus, what we mean by "leftism" will emerge more clearly in the course of our discussion of leftist psychology (Also, see paragraphs 227-230.)

8. Even so, our conception of leftism will remain a good deal less clear than we would wish, but there doesn't seem to be any remedy for this. All we are trying to do is indicate in a rough and approximate way the two psychological tendencies that we believe are the main driving force of modern leftism. We by no means claim to be telling the WHOLE truth about leftist psychology. Also, our discussion is meant to apply to modern leftism only. We leave open the question of the extent to which our discussion could be applied to the leftists of the 19th and early 20th century.

9. The two psychological tendencies that underlie modern leftism we call "feelings of inferiority" and "oversocialization." Feelings of inferiority are characteristic of modern leftism as a whole, while oversocialization is characteristic only of a certain segment of modern leftism; but this segment is highly influential.

10. By "feelings of inferiority" we mean not only inferiority feelings in the strictest sense but a whole spectrum of related traits: low self-esteem, feelings of powerlessness, depressive tendencies, defeatism, guilt, self-hatred, etc. We argue that modern leftists tend to have such feelings (possibly more or less repressed) and that these feelings are decisive in determining the direction of modern leftism.

11. When someone interprets as derogatory almost anything that is said about him (or about groups with whom he identifies) we conclude that he has inferiority feelings or low self-esteem. This tendency is pronounced among minority rights advocates, whether or not they belong to the minority groups whose rights they defend. They are hypersensitive about the words used to designate minorities. The terms "negro," "oriental," "handicapped" or "chick" for an African, an Asian, a disabled person or a woman originally had no derogatory connotation. "Broad" and "chick" were merely the feminine equivalents of "guy," "dude" or "fellow." The negative connotations have been attached to these terms by the activists themselves. Some animal rights advocates have gone so far as to reject the word "pet" and insist on its replacement by "animal companion." Leftist anthropologists go to great lengths to avoid saying anything about primitive peoples that could conceivably be interpreted as negative. They want to replace the word "primitive" by "nonliterate." They seem almost paranoid about anything that might suggest that any primitive culture is inferior to our own. (We do not mean to imply that primitive cultures ARE inferior to ours. We merely point out the hypersensitivity of leftish anthropologists.)

12. Those who are most sensitive about "politically incorrect" terminology are not the average black ghetto-dweller, Asian immigrant, abused woman or disabled person, but a minority of activists, many of whom do not even belong to any "oppressed" group but come from privileged strata of society. Political correctness has its stronghold among university professors, who have secure employment with comfortable salaries, and the majority of whom are heterosexual, white males from middle-class families.

13. Many leftists have an intense identification with the problems of groups that have an image of being weak (women), defeated (American Indians), repellent (homosexuals), or otherwise inferior. The leftists themselves feel that these groups are inferior. They would never admit it to themselves that they have such feelings, but it is precisely because they do see these groups as inferior that they identify with their problems. (We do not suggest that women, Indians, etc., ARE inferior; we are only making a point about leftist psychology).

14. Feminists are desperately anxious to prove that women are as strong as capable as men. Clearly they are nagged by a fear that women may NOT be as strong and as capable as men.

15. Leftists tend to hate anything that has an image of being strong, good and successful. They hate America, they hate Western civilization, they hate white males, they hate rationality. The reasons that leftists give for hating the West, etc. clearly do not correspond with their real motives. They SAY they hate the West because it is warlike, imperialistic, sexist, ethnocentric and so forth, but where these same faults appear in socialist countries or in primitive cultures, the leftist finds excuses for them, or at best he GRUDGINGLY admits that they exist; whereas he ENTHUSIASTICALLY points out (and often greatly exaggerates) these faults where they appear in Western civilization. Thus it is clear that these faults are not the leftist's real motive for hating America and the West. He hates America and the West because they are strong and successful.

16. Words like "self-confidence," "self-reliance," "initiative", "enterprise," "optimism," etc. play little role in the liberal and leftist vocabulary. The leftist is anti-individualistic, pro-collectivist. He wants society to solve everyone's needs for them, take care of them. He is not the sort of person who has an inner sense of confidence in his own ability to solve his own problems and satisfy his own needs. The leftist is antagonistic to the concept of competition because, deep inside, he feels like a loser.

17. Art forms that appeal to modern leftist intellectuals tend to focus on sordidness, defeat and despair, or else they take an orgiastic tone, throwing off rational control as if there were no hope of accomplishing anything through rational calculation and all that was left was to immerse oneself in the sensations of the moment.

18. Modern leftist philosophers tend to dismiss reason, science, objective reality and to insist that everything is culturally relative. It is true that one can ask serious questions about the foundations of scientific knowledge and about how, if at all, the concept of objective reality can be defined. But it is obvious that modern leftist philosophers are not simply cool-headed logicians systematically analyzing the foundations of knowledge. They are deeply involved emotionally in their attack on truth and reality. They attack these concepts because of their own psychological needs. For one thing, their attack is an outlet for hostility, and, to the extent that it is successful, it satisfies the drive for power. More importantly, the leftist hates science and rationality because they classify certain beliefs as true (i.e., successful, superior) and other beliefs as false (i.e. failed, inferior). The leftist's feelings of inferiority run so deep that he cannot tolerate any classification of some things as successful or superior and other things as failed or inferior. This also underlies the rejection by many leftists of the concept of mental illness and of the utility of IQ tests. Leftists are antagonistic to genetic explanations of human abilities or behavior because such explanations tend to make some persons appear superior or inferior to others. Leftists prefer to give society the credit or blame for an individual's ability or lack of it. Thus if a person is "inferior" it is not his fault, but society's, because he has not been brought up properly.

19. The leftist is not typically the kind of person whose feelings of inferiority make him a braggart, an egotist, a bully, a self-promoter, a ruthless competitor. This kind of person has not wholly lost faith in himself. He has a deficit in his sense of power and self-worth, but he can still conceive of himself as having the capacity to be strong, and his efforts to make himself strong produce his unpleasant behavior. [1] But the leftist is too far gone for that. His feelings of inferiority are so ingrained that he cannot conceive of himself as individually strong and valuable. Hence the collectivism of the leftist. He can feel strong only as a member of a large organization or a mass movement with which he identifies himself.

20. Notice the masochistic tendency of leftist tactics. Leftists protest by lying down in front of vehicles, they intentionally provoke police or racists to abuse them, etc. These tactics may often be effective, but many leftists use them not as a means to an end but because they PREFER masochistic tactics. Self-hatred is a leftist trait.

21. Leftists may claim that their activism is motivated by compassion or by moral principle, and moral principle does play a role for the leftist of the oversocialized type. But compassion and moral principle cannot be the main motives for leftist activism. Hostility is too prominent a component of leftist behavior; so is the drive for power. Moreover, much leftist behavior is not rationally calculated to be of benefit to the people whom the leftists claim to be trying to help. For example, if one believes that affirmative action is good for black people, does it make sense to demand affirmative action in hostile or dogmatic terms? Obviously it would be more productive to take a diplomatic and conciliatory approach that would make at least verbal and symbolic concessions to white people who think that affirmative action discriminates against them. But leftist activists do not take such an approach because it would not satisfy their emotional needs. Helping black people is not their real goal. Instead, race problems serve as an excuse for them to express their own hostility and frustrated need for power. In doing so they actually harm black people, because the activists' hostile attitude toward the white majority tends to intensify race hatred.

22. If our society had no social problems at all, the leftists would have to INVENT problems in order to provide themselves with an excuse for making a fuss.

23. We emphasize that the foregoing does not pretend to be an accurate description of everyone who might be considered a leftist. It is only a rough indication of a general tendency of leftism.

24. Psychologists use the term "socialization" to designate the process by which children are trained to think and act as society demands. A person is said to be well socialized if he believes in and obeys the moral code of his society and fits in well as a functioning part of that society. It may seem senseless to say that many leftists are over-socialized, since the leftist is perceived as a rebel. Nevertheless, the position can be defended. Many leftists are not such rebels as they seem.

25. The moral code of our society is so demanding that no one can think, feel and act in a completely moral way. For example, we are not supposed to hate anyone, yet almost everyone hates somebody at some time or other, whether he admits it to himself or not. Some people are so highly socialized that the attempt to think, feel and act morally imposes a severe burden on them. In order to avoid feelings of guilt, they continually have to deceive themselves about their own motives and find moral explanations for feelings and actions that in reality have a non-moral origin. We use the term "oversocialized" to describe such people. [2]

26. Oversocialization can lead to low self-esteem, a sense of powerlessness, defeatism, guilt, etc. One of the most important means by which our society socializes children is by making them feel ashamed of behavior or speech that is contrary to society's expectations. If this is overdone, or if a particular child is especially susceptible to such feelings, he ends by feeling ashamed of HIMSELF. Moreover the thought and the behavior of the oversocialized person are more restricted by society's expectations than are those of the lightly socialized person. The majority of people engage in a significant amount of naughty behavior. They lie, they commit petty thefts, they break traffic laws, they goof off at work, they hate someone, they say spiteful things or they use some underhanded trick to get ahead of the other guy. The oversocialized person cannot do these things, or if he does do them he generates in himself a sense of shame and self-hatred. The oversocialized person cannot even experience, without guilt, thoughts or feelings that are contrary to the accepted morality; he cannot think "unclean" thoughts. And socialization is not just a matter of morality; we are socialized to confirm to many norms of behavior that do not fall under the heading of morality. Thus the oversocialized person is kept on a psychological leash and spends his life running on rails that society has laid down for him. In many oversocialized people this results in a sense of constraint and powerlessness that can be a severe hardship. We suggest that oversocialization is among the more serious cruelties that human beings inflict on one another.

27. We argue that a very important and influential segment of the modern left is oversocialized and that their oversocialization is of great importance in determining the direction of modern leftism. Leftists of the oversocialized type tend to be intellectuals or members of the upper-middle class. Notice that university intellectuals [3] constitute the most highly socialized segment of our society and also the most left-wing segment.

28. The leftist of the oversocialized type tries to get off his psychological leash and assert his autonomy by rebelling. But usually he is not strong enough to rebel against the most basic values of society. Generally speaking, the goals of today's leftists are NOT in conflict with the accepted morality. On the contrary, the left takes an accepted moral principle, adopts it as its own, and then accuses mainstream society of violating that principle. Examples: racial equality, equality of the sexes, helping poor people, peace as opposed to war, nonviolence generally, freedom of expression, kindness to animals. More fundamentally, the duty of the individual to serve society and the duty of society to take care of the individual. All these have been deeply rooted values of our society (or at least of its middle and upper classes [4] for a long time. These values are explicitly or implicitly expressed or presupposed in most of the material presented to us by the mainstream communications media and the educational system. Leftists, especially those of the oversocialized type, usually do not rebel against these principles but justify their hostility to society by claiming (with some degree of truth) that society is not living up to these principles.

29. Here is an illustration of the way in which the oversocialized leftist shows his real attachment to the conventional attitudes of our society while pretending to be in rebellion against it. Many leftists push for affirmative action, for moving black people into high-prestige jobs, for improved education in black schools and more money for such schools; the way of life of the black "underclass" they regard as a social disgrace. They want to integrate the black man into the system, make him a business executive, a lawyer, a scientist just like upper-middle-class white people. The leftists will reply that the last thing they want is to make the black man into a copy of the white man; instead, they want to preserve African American culture. But in what does this preservation of African American culture consist? It can hardly consist in anything more than eating black-style food, listening to black-style music, wearing black-style clothing and going to a black-style church or mosque. In other words, it can express itself only in superficial matters. In all ESSENTIAL respects more leftists of the oversocialized type want to make the black man conform to white, middle-class ideals. They want to make him study technical subjects, become an executive or a scientist, spend his life climbing the status ladder to prove that black people are as good as white. They want to make black fathers "responsible." they want black gangs to become nonviolent, etc. But these are exactly the values of the industrial-technological system. The system couldn't care less what kind of music a man listens to, what kind of clothes he wears or what religion he believes in as long as he studies in school, holds a respectable job, climbs the status ladder, is a "responsible" parent, is nonviolent and so forth. In effect, however much he may deny it, the oversocialized leftist wants to integrate the black man into the system and make him adopt its values.

30. We certainly do not claim that leftists, even of the oversocialized type, NEVER rebel against the fundamental values of our society. Clearly they sometimes do. Some oversocialized leftists have gone so far as to rebel against one of modern society's most important principles by engaging in physical violence. By their own account, violence is for them a form of "liberation." In other words, by committing violence they break through the psychological restraints that have been trained into them. Because they are oversocialized these restraints have been more confining for them than for others; hence their need to break free of them. But they usually justify their rebellion in terms of mainstream values. If they engage in violence they claim to be fighting against racism or the like.

31. We realize that many objections could be raised to the foregoing thumb-nail sketch of leftist psychology. The real situation is complex, and anything like a complete description of it would take several volumes even if the necessary data were available. We claim only to have indicated very roughly the two most important tendencies in the psychology of modern leftism.

32. The problems of the leftist are indicative of the problems of our society as a whole. Low self-esteem, depressive tendencies and defeatism are not restricted to the left. Though they are especially noticeable in the left, they are widespread in our society. And today's society tries to socialize us to a greater extent than any previous society. We are even told by experts how to eat, how to exercise, how to make love, how to raise our kids and so forth.

33. Human beings have a need (probably based in biology) for something that we will call the "power process." This is closely related to the need for power (which is widely recognized) but is not quite the same thing. The power process has four elements. The three most clear-cut of these we call goal, effort and attainment of goal. (Everyone needs to have goals whose attainment requires effort, and needs to succeed in attaining at least some of his goals.) The fourth element is more difficult to define and may not be necessary for everyone. We call it autonomy and will discuss it later (paragraphs 42-44).

34. Consider the hypothetical case of a man who can have anything he wants just by wishing for it. Such a man has power, but he will develop serious psychological problems. At first he will have a lot of fun, but by and by he will become acutely bored and demoralized. Eventually he may become clinically depressed. History shows that leisured aristocracies tend to become decadent. This is not true of fighting aristocracies that have to struggle to maintain their power. But leisured, secure aristocracies that have no need to exert themselves usually become bored, hedonistic and demoralized, even though they have power. This shows that power is not enough. One must have goals toward which to exercise one's power.

35. Everyone has goals; if nothing else, to obtain the physical necessities of life: food, water and whatever clothing and shelter are made necessary by the climate. But the leisured aristocrat obtains these things without effort. Hence his boredom and demoralization.

36. Nonattainment of important goals results in death if the goals are physical necessities, and in frustration if nonattainment of the goals is compatible with survival. Consistent failure to attain goals throughout life results in defeatism, low self-esteem or depression.

37. Thus, in order to avoid serious psychological problems, a human being needs goals whose attainment requires effort, and he must have a reasonable rate of success in attaining his goals.

38. But not every leisured aristocrat becomes bored and demoralized. For example, the emperor Hirohito, instead of sinking into decadent hedonism, devoted himself to marine biology, a field in which he became distinguished. When people do not have to exert themselves to satisfy their physical needs they often set up artificial goals for themselves. In many cases they then pursue these goals with the same energy and emotional involvement that they otherwise would have put into the search for physical necessities. Thus the aristocrats of the Roman Empire had their literary pretentions; many European aristocrats a few centuries ago invested tremendous time and energy in hunting, though they certainly didn't need the meat; other aristocracies have competed for status through elaborate displays of wealth; and a few aristocrats, like Hirohito, have turned to science.

39. We use the term "surrogate activity" to designate an activity that is directed toward an artificial goal that people set up for themselves merely in order to have some goal to work toward, or let us say, merely for the sake of the "fulfillment" that they get from pursuing the goal. Here is a rule of thumb for the identification of surrogate activities. Given a person who devotes much time and energy to the pursuit of goal X, ask yourself this: If he had to devote most of his time and energy to satisfying his biological needs, and if that effort required him to use his physical and mental facilities in a varied and interesting way, would he feel seriously deprived because he did not attain goal X? If the answer is no, then the person's pursuit of a goal X is a surrogate activity. Hirohito's studies in marine biology clearly constituted a surrogate activity, since it is pretty certain that if Hirohito had had to spend his time working at interesting non-scientific tasks in order to obtain the necessities of life, he would not have felt deprived because he didn't know all about the anatomy and life-cycles of marine animals. On the other hand the pursuit of sex and love (for example) is not a surrogate activity, because most people, even if their existence were otherwise satisfactory, would feel deprived if they passed their lives without ever having a relationship with a member of the opposite sex. (But pursuit of an excessive amount of sex, more than one really needs, can be a surrogate activity.)

40. In modern industrial society only minimal effort is necessary to satisfy one's physical needs. It is enough to go through a training program to acquire some petty technical skill, then come to work on time and exert very modest effort needed to hold a job. The only requirements are a moderate amount of intelligence, and most of all, simple OBEDIENCE. If one has those, society takes care of one from cradle to grave. (Yes, there is an underclass that cannot take physical necessities for granted, but we are speaking here of mainstream society.) Thus it is not surprising that modern society is full of surrogate activities. These include scientific work, athletic achievement, humanitarian work, artistic and literary creation, climbing the corporate ladder, acquisition of money and material goods far beyond the point at which they cease to give any additional physical satisfaction, and social activism when it addresses issues that are not important for the activist personally, as in the case of white activists who work for the rights of nonwhite minorities. These are not always pure surrogate activities, since for many people they may be motivated in part by needs other than the need to have some goal to pursue. Scientific work may be motivated in part by a drive for prestige, artistic creation by a need to express feelings, militant social activism by hostility. But for most people who pursue them, these activities are in large part surrogate activities. For example, the majority of scientists will probably agree that the "fulfillment" they get from their work is more important than the money and prestige they earn.

41. For many if not most people, surrogate activities are less satisfying than the pursuit of real goals ( that is, goals that people would want to attain even if their need for the power process were already fulfilled). One indication of this is the fact that, in many or most cases, people who are deeply involved in surrogate activities are never satisfied, never at rest. Thus the money-maker constantly strives for more and more wealth. The scientist no sooner solves one problem than he moves on to the next. The long-distance runner drives himself to run always farther and faster. Many people who pursue surrogate activities will say that they get far more fulfillment from these activities than they do from the "mundane" business of satisfying their biological needs, but that it is because in our society the effort needed to satisfy the biological needs has been reduced to triviality. More importantly, in our society people do not satisfy their biological needs AUTONOMOUSLY but by functioning as parts of an immense social machine. In contrast, people generally have a great deal of autonomy in pursuing their surrogate activities. have a great deal of autonomy in pursuing their surrogate activities.

42. Autonomy as a part of the power process may not be necessary for every individual. But most people need a greater or lesser degree of autonomy in working toward their goals. Their efforts must be undertaken on their own initiative and must be under their own direction and control. Yet most people do not have to exert this initiative, direction and control as single individuals. It is usually enough to act as a member of a SMALL group. Thus if half a dozen people discuss a goal among themselves and make a successful joint effort to attain that goal, their need for the power process will be served. But if they work under rigid orders handed down from above that leave them no room for autonomous decision and initiative, then their need for the power process will not be served. The same is true when decisions are made on a collective bases if the group making the collective decision is so large that the role of each individual is insignificant [5]

43. It is true that some individuals seem to have little need for autonomy. Either their drive for power is weak or they satisfy it by identifying themselves with some powerful organization to which they belong. And then there are unthinking, animal types who seem to be satisfied with a purely physical sense of power(the good combat soldier, who gets his sense of power by developing fighting skills that he is quite content to use in blind obedience to his superiors).

44. But for most people it is through the power process-having a goal, making an AUTONOMOUS effort and attaining t the goal-that self-esteem, self-confidence and a sense of power are acquired. When one does not have adequate opportunity to go throughout the power process the consequences are (depending on the individual and on the way the power process is disrupted) boredom, demoralization, low self-esteem, inferiority feelings, defeatism, depression, anxiety, guilt, frustration, hostility, spouse or child abuse, insatiable hedonism, abnormal sexual behavior, sleep disorders, eating disorders, etc. [6]


Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5814230)

Listen buddy, I love food, and I especially love Chinese food. But these things really piss me off:

1. No chopsticks. What the fuck is up with that? More and more Chinese restaurants do not put chopsticks on the table by default. You have to ask for them. Hell, there's this restaurant I used to go to. It was *called* chopsticks - and you still had to ask for some. You'd think, that, as a marketing gimmick, they would use chopsticks in there. But no. It's always this big hassle. You always have to ask. What, you think we can't eat with chopsticks, or something?

2. The jokes. I am tired of hearing dog jokes in Chinese restaurants. It's fucking rude. There is always an idiot seated 10 feet across who cracks Chinese restaurant jokes in the middle of your meal. "Do you like your dog? Yeah, especially in Moo Goo Gai Pan". That shit ain't funny. See, if it were funny, people would laugh. That's the expected reaction to funny jokes. If people are not laughing, what can you deduct, shit for brains? Another one I always hear is "The Chinese Restaurant is the only restaurant where they welcome your dog." Fucking hilarious, I tell you. Want to hear something funny? The latest Chinese restaurant that opened in my street is located 200 yards away from the humane society. Now *that* is a marketing genius at work.

3. The numbers deal. What the fuck is up with the numbers and letters to designate the dishes? We can read, you know. We don't sign our credit card with a "X". We are not totally illiterate, for Pete's sake. I am tired of seeing those people say "I'll have the C32, mild, with fried rice on the side." Hey asswipe, it's a Chicken Low Mein. What's so fucking hard to say? I just don't get it. I find it stupid at best, and insulting at worse.

4. Why do all Chinese restaurants have a fish tank? It's a catch 22. When they have one, it's a cliché. When they don't, they look like they are not successful enough to afford one. The whole fish tank thing is a pain in the ass. I always have the sneaking sensation that someone in the room is eating the fish I was checking out while waiting to be seated.

5. The staff has to make an effort to speak English while around customers. It's fucking rude to see them talk to each other in Chinese - Mandarin to be more precise - right in your face. You never know if they're talking about the weather or if they are insulting your ancestry. Fucking little dweebs come here to live, great. Now learn to be polite. Hey, English is not my mother tongue, it's my third language. But I still make an effort to speak it while in the company of others. It's called courtesy, asswipe.

6. Is Tso a General, a corporal, or a colonel? Every other restaurant has a different rank for the guy. Just choose one and stick to it, for God's sake! Hell, some even spell his name Tsao, to further confuse the situation. Little fuckers can't get their facts straight.

7. Why do fortune cookies have to taste like sand? Can't they make a fortune cookie worth eating? The only thing people do with those is crumble them into pieces and read the "fortune" in there. The latest one I got - I shit you not - said "Everyone agrees that you're the best". No shit. Not only I don't get to eat the cookie, on account of the fact that I don't like the taste of sand in my mouth, but on top of that the thing spells the obvious. Check, please!

8. Why does the wonton soup usually look like a microcosm of a turd floating in a toilet bowl? That's just nasty, man. Surely, they could change the presentation so that you don't wonder who shit in your soup. Really. I mean, this being a restaurant, and all, and this being the first dish that you are served, that's not exactly the most appealing way to start a meal.

9. The buffet that serves other food than Chinese. What's up with that? I was in Florida recently, and we decided to have lunch in a Chinese joint that featured an all you can eat buffet. Half the dishes were stuff like pizza, crayfish, Jell-O, etc... It's a Chinese restaurant, people. How about some Chinese fucking food? There's a concept! Imagine that! A Chinese restaurant that serves Chinese food! Do you think there is a market for it? Why, I don't know, nobody seems to have tried it yet!

10. There is nothing that bugs me more than being told that we are going to a Chinese restaurant, only to end up in a Korean, Thai, or Japanese place. I have nothing against those types of restaurants, it's just that the ignorance this denotes is a real pain in the ass. Although it is not the fault of the restaurant itself - it is the fault of the people who don't know any better, really - it still bugs me, and since I am the one who decides what goes into my rants, there you have it. Well, this made me hungry. Gotta go get me some Orange Chicken with white rice. See you there...

This is one of the better posts (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5814250)

So do not mod him down! Chinese places are just like this and good ones are hard to come by! This is more news than Slashdot has had in ages.

A tip for mods (-1, Offtopic)

tunah (530328) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814326)

Okay, this was *WAY* offtopic. But it was good, and it was funny, and insightful, and it wasn't something that had been posted 15000 times before.

The moderation system is not to keep the conversation on topic. It's to weed the good out from the bad. If you thought this comment was a waste of time, fine, mark it offtopic, but don't automatically mark it that way just because it has nothing to do with the story. Sometimes the best comments can be OT.

And of course i'll now be instantly -1 offtopiced, evenly from people who didn't read this, just thought it was OT (relevant to the parent is not OT!) and those who have a twisted sense of irony. *sigh* ;-)

10. windows (-1, Troll)

matto14 (593826) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814341)

where are the windows. I've been looking for a sit down joint that has them this would be impossible to find.

The List: (4, Funny)

jarodss (243400) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814234)

HAHA... NOOOOO... someone beat me to it :) (1)

DaedalusHKX (660194) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814239)

Guess my efforts shall now be in vain... or perhaps a bit of help/constructive competition won't hurt.


Re:HAHA... NOOOOO... someone beat me to it :) (1)

theedge318 (622114) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814301)

I don't know ... somehow i don't think they are much competition yet. I mean I had to click on 16 links to have them tell me that they don't have any artists ... it will be quite sometime before I consider doing that again

Re:HAHA... NOOOOO... someone beat me to it :) (1)

DaedalusHKX (660194) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814339)

I went there after posting and noticed that it seems to be a much work in progress... not quite the same scope for what I am planning out, but should be fun... and of course "ANYTHING to obliterate the RIAA and make them WORK for their money".


PS - Salary and "compensation" should be relevant to the amount of work, personal danger, and risks of the job. Therefore a CEO should make LESS than a good janitor. All CEO's should also take a pay cut for every job they slash. Thus it will be in their best interest to observe the rights of those beneath their now GODLY wings...

Love that Math (5, Interesting)

spoonist (32012) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814240)

Obligatory link to an article by Courtney Love:

Courtney Love does the math []

The final score?

Band: $0.00

Record Label: $6,600,000.00

obligatory correction: (4, Insightful)

mekkab (133181) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814295)

Totally ghost written. That doesn't make it BAD, and I'm not casting dispersions on Courtney Love- I think its admirable that she would use her fame as soap box to tell the Truth, so props to her. But something about her doesn't strike me as a researcher.

Obligatory Steve Albini article []

Re:Love that Math (2, Interesting)

LinuxHam (52232) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814388)

Obligatory link to the Steve Albini article she ripped it from.

The Problem with Music []

She once tried to slap David Gedge of The Wedding Present backstage because she heard he was friends with Albini.

Good Steve Albini quote: (1)

NecrosisLabs (125672) | more than 11 years ago | (#5815367)

Someone from Urge Overkill had been trashing Albini in a magazine. His response was "Well, in five years I'll still be making records, while they'll be giving blow jobs in bus station bathrooms for pocket change."

Re:Love that Math (1)

Tony-A (29931) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814573)

The record company spends $300,000 on independent radio promotion. You have to pay independent promotion to get your song on the radio; independent promotion is a system where the record companies use middlemen so they can pretend not to know that radio stations -- the unified broadcast system -- are getting paid to play their records.

Hmmm, smells like someone has a racket going and they don't want Napster etc. undercutting them.

Re:Love that Math (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5814974)

If only there were more ppl like courtney love and less ppl like politician {insertnamehere}, this world would be a much better place.

Re:Love that Math (1)

Draigon (172034) | more than 11 years ago | (#5815077)

"If only there were more ppl like courtney love [...] this world would be a much better place."

A much better, white trash, raunchy, bitchy place.
Not that I'm disagreeing. :) People who are uncompromising with what they believe are awesome even if I want to hate them.

Good on 'em (5, Insightful)

Michael's a Jerk! (668185) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814243)

It's nice to see someone try to make it without the RIAA et al. I hope this kind of thing becomes more common.

People: Please support these guys even if you hate their music. If they turn a profit, other bands will follow suite.

Re:Good on 'em (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5814252)

Support them, but don't buy their music if you don't like it. The last thing we need is a fake success story. If it is the better way, it has to work without fixing the statistics.

Re:Good on 'em (4, Interesting)

26199 (577806) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814320)

One slight problem: follow the link and you'll find there aren't actually any artists signed up to buy from.

EMusic rules (4, Interesting)

Chazmati (214538) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814564)

Your sig mentions EMusic. I listen to a lot of jazz. For the price of a CD every month, I get unlimited *legal* MP3 downloads of classic stuff. Bought a Penguin guide to jazz on CD to help sort through EMusic's collection, and have pulled maybe 11G of tunes in three months (and I haven't been hitting it that hard). It's practically more than one can listen to.

I guess it's a product life-cycle thing. Relatively few people are buying classic jazz these days (compared to top 40/pop/alternative), so the record labels are figuring they'll take what they can get for it.

Re:EMusic rules (1)

26199 (577806) | more than 11 years ago | (#5815176)

Good, isn't it?... I've downloaded a whole range from emusic, and it's really helped the depth and breadth of my collection...

Definitely good value if they offer something you like.

Re:Good on 'em (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5815363)

I would love to check out the music that they have available, but the bins are empty.

After the "revolution" is over (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5814244)

Don't you think that this wonderful concept should have a few artists to start with --- exactly whom is participating in this revolution? They should have prominence on this site -- the "founding fathers" as it were.

I want my old mtv! (where they played MUSIC videos)

Re:After the "revolution" is over (1)

torpor (458) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814401)

Sorta like AMPFEA, for example. []

I can imagine a few among that crowd might find this useful...

Let's here it for FatChuck (3, Interesting)

The Tyro (247333) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814251)

Good idea... no artists yet though (at least in the half-dozen genres that I checked).

That site has been great... particularly for finding crippled/broken CDs BEFORE you buy the stinkin things. I'm a fan, primarily because I don't own a regular CD player... but I own four computers with CDROM drives.

Well done, charles... well done.

Make that "hear" (1)

The Tyro (247333) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814256)

yeah, don't mind my english... hear=here... I is a edumakated kollege graduite!

Yes - For all intensive purposes he's the best! (1)

andy666 (666062) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814321)

he's the beste!

A just little exaggeration here?! (3, Insightful)

tgrotvedt (542393) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814255)

revolutions take time

Could the Slashdot editors possibly have taken this seriously??! This is a small website with zero artists. A good thing I guess, but definetly not an industry revolution

These things do "take time".

Re:A just little exaggeration here?! (1)

ZzzzSleep (606571) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814279)

Could the Slashdot editors possibly have taken this seriously??! This is a small website with zero artists. A good thing I guess, but definetly not an industry revolution
Perhaps they thought it sounded like a good idea that should be encouraged. I think it's entirely possible that the first people to sell their music through FatChucks will have come from Slashdot.


Re:A just little exaggeration here?! (3, Insightful)

anonicon (215837) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814619)

For the record, the site launched about 48 hours ago and the revolution (if anyone chooses to join) is that for the first time in history, there aren't any middlemen pawing at the money that the artist makes from their fans. No distributors, no labels, no managers. It's the fan, the payment processor, and the artist - no one else.

So, outside of car trunks and live shows, your music is available to anyone anywhere in the world if you decide to join.

Show some patience. Have a drink. We're working on it.


Re:A just little exaggeration here?! (1)

irfco (529863) | more than 11 years ago | (#5815425)

Good stuff and I hope people take advantage of the channel you've created.

Now that this is setup, however, perhaps you could clear the cruft out of the shituation that middlemen serve as a function of (they're there for a reason). The social lubrication that causes CDs to be purchased. I think a few people have sort of approached the issue in the comments (I read them all the way through (so far)), but haven't been blunt enough about it.

I'm sure you've already thought about that, and perhaps your model is not even intended to eventually tackle that, but I just felt like reiterating the issue.

Featuring on Slashdot is, perhaps, an initial step to that, but perhaps the geek crowd is not the best medium through which to eventually encourage artists to subscribe to the model and music consumers to purchase through it :) I guess what I am eventually saying is, keep an eye out on how to simplify marketing, since distribution has already been taken care off.

But, hey, any publicity is good publicity :) Best of luck, Peace.

Mirrored... (-1, Troll)

ty_kramer (262524) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814272)

In case the site gets too much traffic, here's a mirror [about] .

Re:Mirrored... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5814441)

That only works with IE, you fucking spastic.

Europeans (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5814275)

Looks like almost all of the corrupt CDs are in Europe. America is almost home free at the moment.

I wonder if this is because Europeans are more accepting of restrictions on their liberty, or if the publishers believe that they can use laws like the DMCA to effectively combat music theft in the United States.

Re:Europeans (3, Interesting)

anarxia (651289) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814297)

Could it be that the site is European (judging from the flags on the page) and so they have better access to information about European CDs?

Re:Europeans (1)

anonicon (215837) | more than 11 years ago | (#5815365)

Hi Anarxia.

Actually, the owner and the site are both U.S.-based. The translation flags are there for the benefit of an non-native English speakers who visit the site and want to read it in their language, not mine. :-)

Hope this helps!

Re:Europeans (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5814302)

I think it's the first case. They've come to expect things like having to pay to receive over-the-air TV signals, cameras on every corner, and RFID embedded in people. Then you've also got to consider that American media is so much easier to push overseas because nobody else seems to have much of a film or music culture of their own anymore, which probably makes the "Buy it with protection or don't get it at all" deal an easier sell.

I doubt these copy-protected CDs could be pushed on any popular music here in the States because most people would actually return them or sue if they couldn't. But I suppose standing up to these types of things is in our blood over here. :)

Artists get 100%? Not for long. (4, Insightful)

NineNine (235196) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814276)

If this thing ever takes off (they're at zero artists right now... not a good sign), I'm just curious as to how Fat Chuck is going to pay for bandwidth. Anyone can put up a website. I'll believe that they take 0% when I see it. That's like opening a retail store and selling everything for what it costs you. Sure, the customers are happy, but you have expenses, and with zero profit, you won't be able to stay open for long.

Re:Artists get 100%? Not for long. (3, Informative)

Oscar_Wilde (170568) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814283)

They do take some money. It costs $60 for the first year and $40 for every year after that (as seen here [] )

Even if they didn't ask for payment they might still take donations or some well meaning people might choose to fund it out of their own pockets (as with the Wikpedia [] )

Re:Artists get 100%? Not for long. (1)

darkpurpleblob (180550) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814357)

I'm just curious as to how Fat Chuck is going to pay for bandwidth.

What's stopping them from doing what many other websites do? They could just place advertising on their site.

Re:Artists get 100%? Not for long. (4, Informative)

anonicon (215837) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814659)

Bandwidth is cheap. Ads are not cheap since they generally alienate your audience and cost you visitors (pop-ups! pop-unders! egads, the horrors!).

For more info: []

Scroll to the end. No ads.

Re:Artists get 100%? Not for long. (1)

robslimo (587196) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814515)

...on April 24th, 2003 we launched Fat Chuck's Music

It's been up for maybe 2 days, give'm a break. OTOH, maybe they should have done a bit of promoting and signed up some artists before their 'launch' so the site wouldn't look so barren.

check the site. (2, Informative)

vena (318873) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814578)

he's charging artists to list their merch there. i assume this is how he plans to run the site.

Re:Artists get 100%? Not for long. (5, Informative)

anonicon (215837) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814649)

As for 0 artists, you're right. We launched about 36-48 hours ago, the idea's been in development for about 6 months.

Per bandwidth, 300gb/mo is $95.00. If I need more, I can get 2tb/mo for about $600/mo.

As far as keeping 0%, that's absolutely no joke. When you pay for an artist's CD, the money moves from your bank through the processor (2CheckOut) directly to the artist. We keep nothing because we're not even in the payment stream.

My expenses for now are $10/month for cheap hosting. I think I can handle it. :-) Remember, if there was no opportunity to stay in business, the idea wouldn't have been started. We're not interested in being a dot-bomb.


Re:Artists get 100%? Not for long. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5815299)

Who is your webhost. I like those prices. Is it colo?

Re:Artists get 100%? Not for long. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5814793)

All they have to do is hold out long enough for some of the businesses they're competing with to start feeling the pain. Then they can sell their website to their competitors (who will buy it just to stop losing customers).

Busted Stuff?? (1)

MadChicken (36468) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814281)

I don't understand the "broken" list -- it includes DMB Busted Stuff. I bought this when it came out, ripped it and it worked fine. The second disc is a DVD, maybe that's what caused the problem...

Re:Busted Stuff?? (1)

angle_slam (623817) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814727)

There are 22 CDs on that list that I have been able to rip. Not listed are some CDs I had a bear of a time trying to rip (I couldn't rip an image using Exact Audio Copy [] and could only rip individual tracks. These included discs by Front Line Assembly and Queens of the Stone Age.)

Re:Busted Stuff?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5815144)

You probably have an older pressing of the disc which wasn't copy-protected. Or possibly a newer one which isn't copy-protected, if some record companies are listening to our vocal minority :)

Check the logo. Does it say "Compact Disc Digital Audio" or something involving the word "Enhanced"?

Here's a site with one artist... (1)

nnet (20306) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814282)


Re:Here's a site with one artist... (1)

MrPoopyPants (146504) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814305)

Hell, if Fat Chuck gets promotion on slashdot so should we!

Jam Recordings []


Re:Here's a site with one artist... (3, Insightful)

adamruck (638131) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814476)

perhaps you two should consider contacting fat chuck, see if you can get your music on his site

1) "start the revolution"
2) get your music listed while its still being hit really hard by slashdot

just an idea

A nice idea, but... (3, Interesting)

geekwench (644364) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814284)

...somebody seems to have forgotten to get the word out to the artists. To paraphrase Ian Malcolm in Jurassic Park: "You will eventually have CDs on your CD sales website, right?"

In all seriousness, I think that it's a really good idea, if they can pull it off. The problems with signing to a major label are covered nicely in an article that can be found here { .html), and trying to market your music by yourself can be an exercise in utter futility. There's both safety and promotion capital in numbers.
Here's hoping... *crosses fingers*

fatchunks blows fat chunks (4, Interesting)

zach_smith (159760) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814287)

This service doesn't add much to what's already out there. You have to pay them $60 for the first year, just to get a subdomain listing that shows your CDs, links to your website, and lets people order your stuff. Then, if somebody does order something, you get an email and have to process the order and send it out. The only thing they do is handle the monetary transaction.

How is this any better than musicians setting up their own site and using paypal (which takes out a lower percentage for credit card charges)?

This doesn't seem like a revolution, just a way to make money off wannabe musicians that think they might sell something.

Re:fatchunks blows fat chunks (2, Interesting)

Oscar_Wilde (170568) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814308)

Good point but a site like this gives a nice central location where consumers can find music they want. If everyone has their own sites then you'll never be able to locate them (think about it, Google ranks sites based on how many other sites link to them and if your obscure that wont be many). Also a central site can maintain an independent chart system record other users recommendations, etc, in an independent fashion. A personal site or a site belonging to a major label cant really claim the same. Places like might be somewhat impartial but they only want to carry items from major labels (things that are obscure wont make them lots of money quickly).

Re:fatchunks blows fat chunks (4, Insightful)

the_consumer (547060) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814309)

How is this any better than musicians setting up their own site and using paypal (which takes out a lower percentage for credit card charges)?

Many people don't use paypal, and setting up your own account to process credit cards is expensive, time-consuming, and nearly impossible if you're just some unknown musician who isn't incorporated and can demonstrate a long and flawless credit history.

I think this is a pretty good idea in theory, but in practice... we'll see. I think they could stand to have a bit more professional look to the site, and "fat chuck's" isn't a name that exactly fills me with confidence.

Re:fatchunks blows fat chunks (2, Interesting)

CynicTheHedgehog (261139) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814331)

What they need to do is:

1. Offer (optional) CD creation services at various levels: CD with generic label, CD with custom label, and CD with custom label and insert (album art and lyrics)

2. Publish web services for publishing and consuming orders. That way you could set up partner services for promotions, and bands could automate CD printing and delivery if they opt not to pay for the CD creation services.

With those two things this would be a very powerful service.

Re:fatchunks blows fat chunks (1)

anonicon (215837) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814735)

Sonic, interesting idea and one I will not be in the position to chase for at least a few years since it's not in the core of what I'm trying to achieve.

Sometimes diversification of one's business plan can be considered di-worse-ification.

As far as partnerships wth businesses who can help Indies, I'm working on it, but the site laucnhed about 48 hours ago, so give me some time. :-)


Re:fatchunks blows fat chunks (0)

Hyrcan (316160) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814681)

Big fat chunks...

The artist do not get 100% of the income from the site as you stated the service cost $60...

Sure it's a nice idea, but it's a marketing scam to say "Where Artists Get Everything. Receive 100% of the money that fans pay for your music and merchandise after the credit card company takes their small cut. " They convenaintly leave out the fact that they take a cut as well...(even if in comparison it's tiny)

I hope they do well in their new venture, but they would get a lot more respect if they were more honest on their website, and I'm not just talking about the "100%" remark.

As the poster points out they also have a site that tracks "Corrupt CDs"... which, while it does have some news links, and a FAQ, the "Known Corrupt CDs" section is nothing more than a message board where people can complain about a cd skipping in their drive...or other people saying that haven't had a problem with that particular CD. While having a message board that tracks possible corruption/bad burn runs/copyright protection of CD, it is not as they clam a list of "Known Corrupt CDs" ... I think Fat Chuck's would do the on-line community a better service by, again, being more honest (or clear) with the information on their website.

And finaly is it REALLY that SLOW at slashdot that they had to post this article at all? Sure they have a "alternative" system to the major lables, etc... but so do a lot of other more mature sites that haven't had the luxury of being slashdotted. Once again I think that OSDN and the rest of the SlashDot crew have an obligation now to be more criticle about the type of information they choose to slashdot. They are no longer a back-water geek website. They are becoming less a voice of the community, and more of just a strong influance(good and bad), such as a mass media outlet. If care is not taken in the future, then they run the risk of following down the paths of other mass media outlet. Alienating the very people they are trying to provide a service to.

"So just how much does it cost to get slashdotted nowdays?"


Re:fatchunks blows fat chunks (2, Interesting)

anonicon (215837) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814710)

Hi Zach, let's take this from the top.

That $60 is to pay for your Internet merchant account (I actually make $20/account for year 1) so that you can accept credit card orders from anyone in the world - not just the limited number of countries that paypal supports (I believe it's 37 compared to the 200+ countries you get with your merchant account).

As far as getting the email and processing it, well, you can pay to ship all of your CDs to someone who will distribute it for you and they will A) keep $3-4 per CD, and B) the shipping. I worked on this so that finally artists could keep *everything* and not have to deal with more middlemen.

Also, artists *can* use the links we've created to their CDs/other stuff and put it on their own site. The benefit here is that A) their sites aren't generally getting listed on Slashdot or other popular news sources, B) *many* bands don't have web sites or they have poorly designed full-Flash ones that aren't friendly to anyone running *cough*Linux*BSD*cough*. Their sub-domain site is so that they can easily promote themselves and not have to worry about whether they've got the people, time or skills for setting up a competent web site.

To be blunt, why are you so cynical? The last thing I want to do is make money off of "wannabe musicians" - I'm trying really hard to help the indies who are busting their ass to make a living with their music. Sorry if this idea pissed you off.


Re:fatchunks blows fat chunks (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5814892)

"Blows", "chunks", "wannabe" and "think they might sell something"? Having a bad day are we Hillary?

paypal blows fat chunks (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5815258)

I just signed up for a paypal account, and after sending 4 people money via my credit card, they have "limited" my account.

They refuse to tell me why my account is restricted, but they demanded that I fax them more personal information.

I faxed them my drivers license and a utility bill, but they claim they never received them! Since my fax log assures me the fax was successful, I can only assume that my personal information is now floating around somewhere for all to see.

Again I insisted that they tell me why my account was being "limited", so we could both work toward a solution, but their reasons continue to be a big secret.

After many either unanswered or unrelated replies, I decided to close my account. Oh, but you cannot close your account while it is "limited".
Paypal will not reactivate my account unless I give them all of my checking account information. Enough information to transfer funds from my checking account.

Since Paypal has been extremely unprofessional, if not worse, in it's actions so far, there is no way I'm going to send these morons more personal information to loose or share.

I called and requested they close my account. They informed me that they cannot close my account until I send them the checking account information. I then became very agitated and demanded they close my account.

They put me through to the dispute resolution department that they said would be able to close my account. That person requested I fax them my request, and they would close it.

I sent the fax 10 times, since they lost my faxes before, but surprise, surprise, they have yet to close my account.
They have now changed their story again; the lady (if you can call her that) on the phone told me that they will not close my account until I Give them my checking account information. Her logic was, they want to make sure the account is mine before they close it! isn't that rich!

When I asked her why the person before her told my they would close my account, she got very defensive and rather rude. After listening to her lengthy explanation that had little to do with my situation, I again asked her if the person I talked to before was wrong and should not of told me that they would close my account. She became very upset at this point and threatened to hang-up the phone on me.

She said "how would I know if that person told you the wrong thing?" Gee.. I don't know, maybe because you just gave me a ten minute speach on Paypal everchanging policy, and I just told you exactly what the other person said!

She at least was able to give me a reason for my account being "limited", unfortunately the reason violates their own user agreement.

You see, I travel for business and log-on to the net from many countries. On this page of Paypals Website: n/approved_countries-outside they state: "PayPal accepts withdrawals to local bank accounts in these countries. (they list the countries) Users in ANY country may withdraw funds to a U.S. bank account"

"ANY COUNTRY". So the lady (again questionable) on the phone says my account was probably "limited" because I logged-in from Poland.

So when thay say "any country" they must mean any country except Poland.
They also claim that they will reinstate my account if I fax them a utility bill, and driver's license, something I have already done.

In fact, when I log into my account, there is a checklist of things I must do to fix my account. One is fax them all my personal info, that one is checked-off, the other is give them my checking account info, that's never going to happen.

Paypal's response to the BBB said they have not received my utility bill and driver's license. Clearly they are stupid or lying, and I'm leaning toward the latter.

Paypal has no intention of fixing my account; they just don't do that. They limit your account, steal your money, and blow you off, in that order.

Moree Maa? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5814293)

yee eye speak art noise fluently as best i can art love owns war talk war in my face and yeah peace will wage back at cha

Isn't this just web hosting? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5814294)

It looks like plain old web hosting, with a few links to your site, plus a merchant account. Indy artists would not get any decent marketing or promotion, or get their CD's produced and pressed.

It's like starting a web hosting business and saying "I will not take any of the money you make via the website!".

Better way to promote your music? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5814310)

One way to promote your music is to post it to newsgroup: alt.binaries.sounds.mp3

Be aware that most of the music there, it's simply just crap or short samples of commercial albums.

Re:Better way to promote your music? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5814808)

It is possible to download mp3's from alt.binaries.sounds.mp3 using leafnode then extract individual mp3's with uudeview. There are hundreds of MBytes of mp3's daily. To save your time put fetchnews and uudeview in cron tab ;-)

Just wait (1)

SlamMan (221834) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814312)

Thats all well and good, but just wait until the indie artists start having someone press thier cds for them.

now it's time to cut out the credit card companies (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5814325)

Yodel, the freenet bank only charge a 1% transaction fee, and I believe it's all anonymous, ie.. their is no building of a profile for the fbi.

100%? (2, Interesting)

91degrees (207121) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814344)

Surely the bands have costs of their own. They have to spend money on marketing, recording, persuading radio stations to play the music. Stuff like that. A record contract bundles this al up into one packages (and then overcharges horrendously - that's monopolies for you), but if you don;t use a record comapny, how will people know to buy your music?

Re:100%? (1)

Art Tatum (6890) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814660)

Promotion is the biggest problem, no question. Unfortunately, the record labels have exclusive deals with retail outlets and radio stations. Some radio stations have a weekly show where they play local bands, so you can do that. But getting your music in a chain like Barnes & Noble is difficult.

Wow, could it be true? (1)

inode_buddha (576844) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814360)

It makes my day to discover that artists are getting their pay for doing some fairly skiklled and specialized kinds of work. I recall that when I was a practicing artist (oil and charcoal on canvas) my paintings, etc. were typically appraised in the $400 - $1000 range. Not that I ever got that much, despite the sheer cost of the raw materials and 4 years of art school.

Nowdays, I go to Broadway shows and the local philharmonic to support them, in addition to donations.

On the list of banned items... (1)

terraformer (617565) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814396)

...there is, among a longer list [] , "Live Animals", yet fails to mention dead ones. Apparently Fat Chuck has not heard of Ozzy Osbourne.

Not exactly a new idea (3, Informative)

jmike (266847) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814514)

Just pointing out that this isn't the only guy in the world to think of the idea; in fact he's rather late to the table.

My brother-on-law sells on CD Baby [] and seems pleased. Not sure how they structure the deal, but the basic idea is to allow independent artists to get most of the money.

None of these sites solve the much larger problem of artist marketing, IMO. That's the one service that the record companies offer to the artists that no one else can get close to (in part because they lock competitors out of radio access, for example). There's room in the market for someone to do that, but they're going to have to find other means of getting to the customer other than radio (sites like [] are a good step in that direction).

Re:Not exactly a new idea (3, Interesting)

An El Haqq (83446) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814602)

Last I heard, CDBaby takes $4 per CD [] . Of course, they handle warehousing and shipping for you, but then you have to pay to send the CDs to them. For most sales, they also add the standard handling fees that the musician won't see.

So, you could sell your CD for $14 + $2.25 shipping and make $10, or you could sell your CD for $14 + $2.25 and make $15+ before shipping costs. Or, you could sell your CD for $10 + $2 shipping, get about $10 and maybe sell more because of the cheaper price.

As for marketing, you're absolutely right. Labels also take care of weeding the wheat from the chaff (in their opinion), something that indie sales and promotion sites generally don't do (Think of [] ). I gather that most musicians want the first problem solved w/o consideration for the second--something that just isn't economically feasible. So for now, you settle for word-of-mouth and hope that sites like CDBaby and FatChuck's Music help you extend the loudness of the mouth.

Re:Not exactly a new idea (1)

Eneff (96967) | more than 11 years ago | (#5815468)

For Deep Audio, or Atoosa, or Molly Zenobia, CDBaby was absolutely worth it.

These are three artists whose CDs I picked up while looking for Alpha Conspiracy music.

Since you don't have to pay shipping if you buy 4 or more CDs, there's that subconscious urge to keep looking to find something you like.

I've bought 15 CDs from CDBaby and I've had rather good luck.

That's not to mention that I know that CDBaby runs a professional outfit and I'll get the CDs within a week. Who knows if it's directly from the artist?

My god! How revolutionary! (0, Redundant)

jpellino (202698) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814522)

Let's see... no artists in hip-hop, none in easy listening, none in popo, none in... hey, HEY!!!

Ain't nobody home!

Is this a bad joke by a sniggering Hilary Rosen? Is this her plan to give artists 100% of.... NOTHING?
I thought eMusic was the height of marginality, but these guys have them beat.

As for Chuck, I'd LOVE to see the pitch for this business model:

1. pay for lotsa hosting & bandwidth
2. 100% to artist = no margin
3. ???
4. profit!!!

Now I can't wait til monday...

More convenient services available (2, Informative)

Gutar (668718) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814525)

I have been using World Party Music ( for several years and it is much more convenient. They charge a flat fee of $1.00 for handling, they do all the inventory handling, shipping, and just send me a check for the amount of my sales minus $1.00 for each sale. They charge the customer the shipping charges and they are responsible for any taxes on the sale.

CDBaby (3, Informative)

jsebrech (525647) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814536)

This has already been done before. Go take a look (and listen) at cdbaby [] . They have over 34,000 artists, and a lot of them are pretty darn good. I buy most of my music there.

Re:CDBaby (Redundant) (1)

anonicon (215837) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814787)

Consider checking out this post from above you: 602 []

When artists sign up with us, 100% of the money that fans pay for their music goes to the artist (after the CC company takes their cut). CD Baby keeps $4/album and they keep the shipping. When you're selling your album for $15, which scenario do you believe you'll make more money in for each sale?

Sorry, the devil is in the details. This has never been done before outside of live shows and car trunk sales.

Peace. :-)

Re:CDBaby (Redundant) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5815156)

Consider checking out this post from above you:

oops! The comment you linked to was submitted after the comment you replied to. Therefore, by generally accepted Slashdot procedure, the comment you replied to was not Redundant.

"Nothing matters" (1)

eagl (86459) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814589)

Has anyone else noticed that under the "kitchen sink" page down by the assorted links section, slashdot is linked with the tag "News for Nerds Nothing matters"

Interesting slam...

Where can I go to get some Indie Music? (1)

miskatonic alumnus (668722) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814628)

I support my indie artists.

Jim Thirlwell (a.k.a. Foetus, Manorexia, Baby Zizanie) has a couple of cd's for sale at [] . Radiolarian Ooze is awesome. Check out his aud/vid link for some samples.

Another oldie but goodie is Alternative Tentacles [] where you can find Jello Biafra and lots more.

Any other good indie stuff for sale out there?

Comparison with CD Baby (1)

Grapes4Buddha (32825) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814630)

I think a couple of other people have mentioned CD Baby [] already. They are by far the most popular way for indie artists to get their stuff out.

While Fat Chuck's is subscription based (you pay a $60 annual fee), CD Baby charges $4 per CD sold. So Fat Chuck's is a better deal if you know you are going to sell more than 15 discs (probably a fair bet).

The other difference I see is that Fat Chuck's only processes the transactions, they don't ship the CDs. CD Baby is a real on-line store and maintains inventory. When they start to run low on stock they send you an email. If they run out they won't sell your disc anymore (but they will issue "rain checks" if they are relatively certain they will be receiving more soon). Derek (CD Baby's president) is a great guy with a lot of music industry experience as well, and he puts out a lot of advice for aspiring artists.

Somehow I think I'd rather just pursue my own online transaction capability rather than go through Fat Chuck's.

Re:Comparison with CD Baby (1)

anonicon (215837) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814844)

Hi Grapes!

First, check out the overview [] . It's $60 for year 1 and $40 year after year 1. You get your *own* Internet merchant account and you keep all the money that the CC processor doesn't take.

Per shipping, the only way to do shipping is A) yourself and keep everything, or B) pay to send your CDs to a company somewhere and watch them keep $4/CD and the shipping charge for each CD.

If you want to pursue your own online transaction capability, I encourage you to. CCNow charges $9.95/month, PayPal does a ~good job for the 30-some countries it accepts payments from, and you're free to buy your own merchant account, but it's a bit expensive.

Speaking briefly, we've tried hard to make this really simple and really easy for artists who shouldn't have to be web design or financial instrument experts. And, at the end of the day, we're the only site around that allows artists to keep 100% of the money that fans pay for their music or merchandise.


Music (1)

blackmonday (607916) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814648)

I've been looking for something like this for a while. My band (see sig) uses Papal, but we only get one or two orders a week, we sell most of our stuff at shows. I think Paypal is a little cheesy and unprofessional, but setting up your own credit card payment system is way out of a small band's league.

Chuck is just spreading the costs of the credit card system amongst all the bands.

What I didn't see is ho well it integrates into an existing site, so theoretically people buy a CD without even knowing they're in a frame on a different site. Maybe I just answered my own question.

Re:Music (1)

An El Haqq (83446) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814699)

What I didn't see is ho well it integrates into an existing site, so theoretically people buy a CD without even knowing they're in a frame on a different site. Maybe I just answered my own question.

Check out the demo page [] . It probably answers your question.

I am crushed (1)

flyneye (84093) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814662)

I am crushed to see Einsturzende Neubauten on the list.I remember when they were an anarchistic band all about the beauty of destruction and decay.
Now they are just corporate dupes playing dance music.

Re:I am crushed (1)

miskatonic alumnus (668722) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814707)

Under Berlin Babylon, you'll find this [] .

At the bottom, a guy from the US says he went to E.N.'s website where "Blixa also claims the band wasn't even told about the protection by the label and they didn't know until they saw the finished product. Furthermore, it appears the band will not be applying copy protection to CDs produced in the immediate future."

I dig E.N. too.

does 'get everything' include (1)

bayankaran (446245) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814762)


Am I missing something? (1)

grooveFX (172130) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814821)

I went to their website, and their is a $60 account payment fee to start, $40 a year afterward. I'm sorry, a band could set up a website and sell online with Paypal for a cheaper price than that. It bothers me that they tell the bands "keep 100% of your profits".

Daddy, where does the merchandise come from? (1)

DaveOf9thKey (599178) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814827)

Fatchuck's 100% offer is a nice marketing gimmick, but it conveniently neglects to tell artists that they have to have the stuff first beforethey can sell it. If a musician pays out for 100 pro-grade CDs and 100 decent T-shirts, signs up on Fatchuck's for $60, and only sells a handful of each in 12 months, the artist is still out for the cost of making the CDs and T-shirts. It's one thing if it's a touring band that can sell their stuff at gigs, too, but if they can do that, why pay the extra $40/year?

I dare say that [] and its high base prices are still a better option for a lot of artists that can't afford to pay up front for the goods, although Mixonic [] tends to offer better rates for CDs. Why there aren't more inexpensive CD creation services like those two really baffles me. (And yes, I know about and Ampcast, but CafePress and Mixonic don't ask for $100/year to sign up and don't fill your CD with ads like does.)

Re:Daddy, where does the merchandise come from? (1)

anonicon (215837) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814887)

Hi Dave!

One point. Whether you sell through Fat Chuck's or any other site (CD Street, CD Baby, Amazon), you still have to assume the risk of having it created no matter who your store front is. Sorry, but I think most artists already understand that and it would be pretty insulting for me to tell them. :-)

As far as touring bands, this is a great idea. If the band's out touring, they can choose to suspend their account (since they can't ship their goods while on the road) or if they have a reliable friend back at the ranch, they can receive Internet orders for their music from both the cities they've just gigged at and other places where their self-promotions have created interest. To be blunt, if $40/year is too much, that's cool! But I think someone might be missing the boat a little. :-)


ignore music in the vault! (3, Interesting)

rjnagle (122374) | more than 11 years ago | (#5814838)

more [] about creative commons music [] . Opsound is a site that puts music into the public domain and properly tags them as such. The backlash from the Verizon decision [] is probably going to kill the music industry, as "free-to-distribute" music gains more cachet.

Actually, because of the Verizon case, I have decided to boycott all commercially recorded music which forbid the rights to free distribution. By boycott, I don't merely mean "refusing to buy" CD's. I mean refusing even to listen or download such music (even illegally). Yes, that probably means that I will no longer listen to Philip Glass, Suzanne Vega, etc. Once they wise up and liberalize their licenses, I might consider listening to them again. And I might also consider checking their CD's out of the library (whenever I feel a pang of nostalgia, in the same way that a Russian might for a moment miss a gulag's watery soup).

The restrictive licenses of music companies essentially lock commercial music in the vault. I'm not interested in picking locks anymore just for a momentary glimpse at these so-called "precious" flowers. I'm interested in enjoying what is free out in the free air. Let all those "precious" flowers in the vault lose their color, rot away and turn into crap. Good riddance.

We as creative artists need to wean ourselves from this enslavement that we call "copyright enforcement." The people and companies who benefit by starving artists, drafting exploitative contracts and preventing works of art from being distributed freely deserve nothing less than our contempt.

You may say: how could I survive without vault music? Simple. If the music rots away in the vault, it was already dead to begin with. Who wants to keep dead flowers around? Instead of locking flowers in the vault, it is better to appreciate them in the open where it's easy to pick and admire. We are like bees admiring the flowers all around us, flitting about, taking what we need and moving on (and propagating the beauty of what we see at the same time). Flowers look pretty among other flowers, not inside some ugly dirty vault guarded by lawyers with vulture-like beaks. As the public areas become more covered with flowers, the desire to possess the rotting heaps in the vault will seem more bizzare, less relevant. The best way to increase the number of flowers in this world is to open the gardens up to bees. Anyway, it is folly to think that a group of lawyers (and that is essentially what a music company is ) owns a song or a human voice or an image. The copyright to Beauty is owned by one person, and that is God. His lawyers are ruthless and know the law of nature backwards and forwards. The license they enforce allows infinite creation and multiplication, but banishes those who say beauty belongs to one.

Freeing myself from the music of the vault provides an opportunity to learn about artists with more enlightened views toward distribution. I plan to patronize them in many ways, including donations. Also, I plan to attend more concerts and still pay for my commercial-free Internet radio ($5 a month) until decent creative commons radio stations [] emerge. It doesn't mean that I am opposed to paying money for music per se. But when I pay for music, I want either to have free distribution rights and/or the certainty that the artist is receiving at least 50% of the money I am paying. What do artists for major labels now receive? 1%?

Actually lawyers are not completely the culprit here. It would be a trivial matter for lawyers on either the artist's or industry's side to draft a limited duration copyright. All ownership rights could expire after about 5 or 10 years. Artists are partially to blame for not insisting on this sort of limited duration contract. And it's a shocking commentary on our culture that after 80 years almost no recorded music has reverted to the public domain. That in itself is shocking.

The irony of course is that strict enforcement of music copyright will kill the incumbent record labels now. The industry claimed they added value by 1)doing marketing and 2)doing distribution. Well, 1)grassroots viral marketing doesn't require the middlemen and 2)p2p spread the costs of distribution. What intelligent musician/artist wouldn't choose the free distribution model?

The downhill slide continues... (1)

pongo000 (97357) | more than 11 years ago | (#5815001)

In the interest of fair disclosure, it should be pointed out that the submitter of this article (anonicon [] ) is a principal of the company.

Which makes this article nothing more than a blatant advertising piece.

Taco, why don't you put the advertising articles where they belong: In the banner ads. Stop wasting our time with "submissions" that are nothing more than thinly-disguised marketing pitches.

100% EXCEPT for setup fees, wire service fees... (1)

Nova Express (100383) | more than 11 years ago | (#5815064)

I guess it's too much for Slashdot submitters and moderators to actually read the site they're linking to, but if they did take this extrodinary and nigh-unheard of step, they would see that the the phrase "independent musicians receive 100% of the money that fans pay for their music or merchandise (of course, after the credit card company takes their cut from the payment)" is demonstrable false. Lets look at the other fees mentioned on the site itself [] , shall we?

"Fat Chuck's Music costs $60 for the first year and $40 per year afterwards. The only other fees associated with Fat Chuck's Music are below:

1. Paid by Check. Getting paid by check in the U.S. or Canada is $4 per check. However, direct deposit is free! Check payment is free outside of the U.S. or Canada since direct deposit is not possible there.

2. Wire Fees. Wire fees change depending on how much is sent to you. Check out the complete chart for more information.

Wire Payment Fees

To wire your payments to you.

$100-$200 Gross Sales -> $33 Wire Fee

$200-$300 Gross Sales -> $30 Wire Fee

$300-$400 Gross Sales -> $27 Wire Fee

$400-$500 Gross Sales -> $24 Wire Fee

$500-$600 Gross Sales -> $21 Wire Fee

$600-$700 Gross Sales -> $18 Wire Fee

$700-$800 Gross Sales -> $15 Wire Fee

$800-$900 Gross Sales -> $12 Wire Fee

$900-$1000 Gross Sales -> $9 Wire Fee

$1000-$1100 Gross Sales -> $6 Wire Fee

$1100-$1200 Gross Sales -> $3 Wire Fee

$1200+ Gross Sales -> No Wire Fee"

Some of these may indeed seem very reasonable (though the wire service fees seem a bit stiff), but it is far, far away from the "100% except for credit card fees" implied by the over-eager submitter. It took me all of 45 seconds to find this imformation. Is it too much to ask submitters and moderators to do likewise?

Re:100% EXCEPT for setup fees, wire service fees.. (1)

Zerth (26112) | more than 11 years ago | (#5815265)

So basically you are nitpicking the difference between "100% except for credit card fees" and "100% except for transaction fees"? Heck, I assumed that credit=transaction right off the bat, although my GF is a business-type so I might have developed a slightly off-kilter filter than you.

Enough already! (2, Informative)

Tinfoil (109794) | more than 11 years ago | (#5815098)

Some claim this has been done before with CD Baby. CD Baby (as mentioned in another post) takes $4 per CD sold, plus shipping and handling. Others mention PayPal, obviously forgetting the problems exposed recently with PayPay.

Chuck's site is a popular site already with the corrupt CD list, and it's only a matter of time before they come. So, rather then pan the idea because it may not look professional or because it doesn't have any artists signed up yet, applaud it and Chuck for wanting to do the right thing for the artist, giving them the money they deserve.

What the hell? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5815266)

We're outsourcing our music to them too? Have you ever SEEN a Bollywood film??? Have you ANY IDEA about the all singing all dancing fromage factor?

Oh... wait... never mind... (4, Informative)

moscow (68604) | more than 11 years ago | (#5815477)

Another alternative is to find artists who make their own CDs. There's no chance of anyone other than Severed Heads getting the money when you buy from sevcom [] because they burn the CD when you pay the money.

Severed Heads also offer improved versions of their older stuff - and the latest album (Op) comes with a key to access 'upgrades' - i.e. extra songs and new versions. On top of all this, you can hear just about everything they sell as a (low bandwidth) MP3 before you buy.

Cut up the middleman!

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