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KDE Success in the Enterprise

michael posted more than 11 years ago | from the looks-like-windows dept.

KDE 352

Arandir writes "Is UNIX ready for the desktop? Display Works Inc. thinks it is! They adopted KDE as their official desktop environment over a year ago, and KDE::Enterprise is running an interview with IT manager Tim Brodie over their experiences. This is a very good interview that covers why KDE was chosen, user migration, and wish lists for KDE. Quote: "I now see KDE taking the lead in polish and professionalism on the desktop"."

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pl;z put 5 into sta aa (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978451)

ill never show you porn again if u dont

Re:pl;z put 5 into sta aa (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978471)

"pl;z put 5 into sta aa"

If you speak English next time, I will mod you up as interesting.

Huh? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978458)

I now see KDE taking the lead in polish and professionalism on the desktop

I have used better interfaces with serial connections to Cicso routers.

Oh, and FP.

Re:Huh? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978460)

holy fuck you failed by almost 2 whole minutes

hmm.. (3, Insightful)

njan (606186) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978463)

An interesting article; not only this, it addresses the issue of inexperienced or job-only computer users using KDE - hitherto not really mentioned in linux-promotion material (apart from obvious examples, eg. lindows). Quite a feather in kde's cap, I'd say.

Or certainly a good sign. :)

KDE Myths (-1, Troll)

Michael's a Jerk! (668185) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978558)

The KDE project is famous for its funded and organised trolling of
weblogs and message board associated with Linux and Free software/open
source. Outrageous newbie impressing claims are made for the software
and huge quanities of FUD are spread to destroy competitors. If this
sounds familiar, then you are correct, most of these tactics were
lifted straight from Microsoft's arsenal of dirty tricks. The Windows
look and feel is not the only thing the KDE project has copied! In
this short article I will address some of the lies and FUD spread by
the KDE trolling teams. It is my hope that this, in some small way,
will redress the balance and re-introduce two things almost eradicated
by the KDE project: Honesty and facts.

Myth #1 - KDE is more integrated than GNOME

The oft-heard cry of the noisiest KDE advocates. No explanation is
given, the reader is expected to simply grok the wholesomeness of KDE
and the lack of this mystical quality in GNOME. It is nonsense of
course. Neither desktop is particularly "integrated" compared to
Windows XP, and certainly not compared any version of the Apple Mac.
Whatever "integrated" actually means.

Myth #2 - KDE is easier to use

Again, such nebulous arguments are never explained, and the reader is
expected to simply understand the truth of the zealots statement. Both
KDE and GNOME have user-interface irritations (all systems do), but
"ease of use" is not a simple thing to measure. KDE has never been
subjected to detailed user testing, unlike GNOME [gnome.org]
[gnome.org], and the claims of user-friendliness are from crazed
supporters and not average users. Furthermore, the KDE faithful rarely
look beyond simple-minded copying of Windows, and forget that
administering a desktop system is just as important as having widgets
in the correct place on the toolbar. For example: What about
application installation and removal? GNOME has the excellent
RedCarpet by Ximian [ximian.com] [ximian.com], which makes the
installation, removal and updating of applications trivial. KDE users
are expected to fend for themselves with brutal command line driven
systems. GNOME also has the excellent Ximian setup tools to handle
various tricky cross-platform and potentially risky system
configuration operations. KDE offers none of this, only a few small
half-assed Linux-only tools, which make no attempt at check-pointing
to return to known working configurations.

Myth #3 - KDE is more popular

In what sense? Arguably more people use KDE, but it is a close run
thing. Most KDE zealots use the results of online polls as proof of
their superior userbase - which is, quite frankly, complete and utter
nonsense. Online polls are the joke of the century; it doesn't even
require a motivated script kiddie to render then worthless. A single
post alerting the faithful on a zealot-ridden site can skew the result
so much it makes American presidential elections look fair and well
organised. Popularity is also difficult to measure when *both* GNOME
and KDE are frequently installed on the same system. The systems can
co-exist and even run at the same time, except for certain
applications such as panels. Many KDE users actually run GNOME
applications for their superior features and stability, not realising
that by doing so they are barely running KDE at all.

One of the few solid measures of popularity is commercial use of a
desktop, and here, GNOME is far ahead with both Hewlett Packard and
Sun committing to using GNOME as the desktop for their Unix systems.
This also ties in with the previously mentioned ease of use. Sun's
major contribution to the GNOME project is in the areas of
user/developer documentation, testing, accessiblity and user-testing.
Three of the less glamourous parts of desktop development. The arrival
of the GNOME 2.x series will see these contributions reach fruitition
and allow GNOME to make a quantum leap ahead of KDE in most of the
basic computer/user issues.

Myth #4 - Konqueror is the best Linux browser

Oh for a penny every time this lie is told in any KDE story! Konqueror
not a bad piece of software. It's authors deserve praise for the work
done on it. However, the sheer amount of orgasmic gushing by the KDE
faithful is completely out of proportion to its actual quality. It is
quite unreliable and even simple standards compliant pages can crash
it quite comprehensively. It is also lax in its support of basic web
standards compared to either Mozilla or Opera. It is also extremely
slow - much slower than the latest incarnations of the GNOME Nautilus
filemanager/browser (a target of much KDE FUD during its development).

Myth #5 - KDE applications are better/more advanced than GNOME ones
due to the ease of developing in C++ using the Qt toolkit

See also: Qt/TrollTech. This is the most common wail heard by KDE
developers, and yet it is easily disproved by looking at the actual
applications for GNOME/GTK and KDE/Qt. KDE applications often have
larger version numbers than GNOME ones... an old trick played by
commerical software developers. Most KDE apps seem to jump for 1.x
releases long before they are ready - KOffice being the best example.
None of the components in Koffice are worthy of a 1.0 release, let
alone 1.1 or 1.2.

GNOME applications get much more testing in their 0.x stages and
despite shorter development phases they mature and reach stable
featureful release states much more quickly. Some examples of this
are: the superb Evolution (groupware/email), Gnumeric (spreadsheet),
Pan (newsreader), The GIMP (image manipulation), Abiword (word
processing), RedCarpet, X-Chat (IRC client), XMMS (media player),
Galeon (web browser), and for developers: Glade and Anjuta. All of
these packages ooze quality, and far outclass their KDE counterparts.
It is no understatement to say that GNOME is at least 18 months ahead
of KDE in applications, and pulling still further ahead.

It's not only in the area of user applications that GNOME is vastly
more advanced. With the forthcoming 2.x release, a number of
impressive behind the scenes technologies will finally mature:
component technology (bonobo), media (Gstreamer), internationalisation
(pango). As a developement platform, GNOME 2.x is, conservatively, 2-3
years ahead of KDE. And what is more, because it is not tied to a
lowest common denominator cross-platform bloat-fest like the Qt
toolkit, the lead (as with applications) can only increase further.

It is also worth noting that GNOME also develops code for use outside
the project (see the XML libraries as one example) - the KDE project
rarely (if ever) engages in this kind of work. KDE developers ensure
that all software must link with Qt, and hence tie it closely with the
Qt toolkit preventing re-use and enhancing the value of TrollTech
intellectual property.

Yet despite all this, we are still regularly fed the lie that Qt and
C++ makes application and desktop development easier. Judge for
yourself.

Myth #6 - KDE is faster and takes less memory than GNOME

KDE is written in C++. While this is not necessarily a problem, it can
be when Visual Basic reject programmers (which the KDE project is
overrun with) do not know enough to avoid important pitfalls that
plague C++ software projects. Stupid use of autoincrementing operators
and iteration with C++ objects; and masses of unnecessary allocations
and deallocations of memory are two of the most common. KDE suffers
badly from both problems.

Perhaps the most cretinous of all problems is blaming the extremely
slow startup times of KDE apps on GCC. The GNOME 1.x releases were
hardly svelt (2.x fixes many of these issues), but GNOME is a fashion
cat-walk superwaif when compared to KDE's 500lb fat-momma
cheese-burger scoffing trailer trash. One need only look at the recent
fuss over ugly KDE hacks (such as prelinking) used to bandage up the
design and coding flaws in the decrepit KDE architecture to see the
truth.

Myth #7 - GNOME development is slower. KDE releases faster.

Fundamental misunderstanding. The KDE project releases as one big lump
of code due to its use of C++ and the many problems this causes with
libraries. The project bumps the version number of the entire KDE
system for the smallest modifications. GNOME, on the other hand is
componentized and each component releases on a (almost) separate
schedule, bumping it's own version number but not the main GNOME
version (1.4, for example). Occasional releases of the entire GNOME
system happen, and that's when the GNOME version number is bumped
(currently it is at 1.4). To see this in action, use RedCarpet and you
will regular updates to GNOME components. GNOME development is not
slower, it is in fact faster and more advanced. Lamers and newbies,
however, fail to understand the advantages of this method and just see
KDE 1.1.1 followed a few weeks later by KDE 1.1.2. Wow! KDE roolz.

Re:KDE Myths (3, Informative)

CoolVibe (11466) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978618)

[yeah yeah, troll... but I'll bite this time. I feel like burning a little karma]

Wow, that's a lot of conjecture and speculation you're spouting, yet you haven't given any solid proof of any of your arguments. Most of it is objective (X is better than... Y is faster than...).

There are also quite a few flaws in your diatribe. (i.e. Ximian's Red Carpet is NOT part of "official" Gnome)

Anyway, for the real beef on KDE myths and facts, go here [urbanlizard.com] .

...and remember, it's only a desktop environment. Remember you can always opt for something else, because the FOSS has given us choice.

one word (-1, Flamebait)

Neuropol (665537) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978468)

blackbox

Re:one word (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978502)

How bout' two words

BIG TITS

Re:one word (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978520)

Three words

Warm Wet Pussy

Re:one word (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978564)

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, yes. what i live for

Re:one word (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978504)

that is nice but what will ye do with this "blackbox"?

Re:one word (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978538)

mount it, ping it, finger it, touch it, fsck it, etc.

Re:one word (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978534)

fluxbox > blackbox

Finally reaping the fruits of their toil! (5, Interesting)

Bold Marauder (673130) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978475)

Let's face it, for well over five years the KDE team has slaved away forging a complete and total desktop solution for not just linux, but the intire UNIX platform. No small feet, that. Along the way, they've had to make some hard choices. Abandon the closed-source QT license or petition to have QT opened? Work on the linux frame buffer potential, or expand their prescence over into the *BSD projects? While GNOME was making critical mis-steps such as following in the footsteps of Microsoft, and using their FSF clout to force Redhat to hemogenize the redhat/linux desktop; KDE kept their focus almost to the point of obsession. Quality, and Nothing but. So, I say Huzzah to KDE! Truly, the GNU worlds' greatest example of the american dream -realised!

Re:Finally reaping the fruits of their toil! (1)

Wumpus (9548) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978501)

using their FSF clout to force Redhat to hemogenize the redhat/linux desktop;

Huh? When did the GNOME project did that?

Re:Finally reaping the fruits of their toil! (1)

Bold Marauder (673130) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978524)

It certainly wasn't Microsoft! Then again, that was around the same time that SUN was giving them UI advise, if I remember correctly.

Re:Finally reaping the fruits of their toil! (2, Insightful)

Wumpus (9548) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978557)

Still, I don't remember the GNOME developers jumping up and down with joy over Bluecurve. Sure, they weren't as vocal as (some of) the KDE developers, but I don't remember a warm endoresement.

But then, I don't remember what I had for breakfast.

Re:Finally reaping the fruits of their toil!-FUD (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978623)

Big clue. There was NO (repeat NO) FSF clout. What RH did was a business decision, nothing more, nothing less. Of course Bold "I'll extract those 8 hours" [slashdot.org] Marauder should be familiar with "business" decisions instead of spreading FUD.

Re:Finally reaping the fruits of their toil!-FUD (1)

Bold Marauder (673130) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978653)

Odd, I think that most people would associate FUD with the actions of Microsoft, rather than the FSF. Oh well. It takes all kinds, I guess!

Re:Finally reaping the fruits of their toil! (4, Funny)

silvaran (214334) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978523)

No small feet, that.

No, the small feet would be left to GNOME [gnome.org] .

Re:Finally reaping the fruits of their toil! (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978550)

> intire UNIX platform.

That would be "entire", and I believe *nix is probably more appropriate.

> No small feet, that.

"Feet" are the logo of the Gnome folk. Perhaps you meant "feat?"

> Abandon the closed-source QT license or
> petition to have QT opened?

Neither, actually. The KDE people went to Qt in the first place. It was the Gnome people who had a fit over the license.

> Work on the linux frame buffer potential, or
> expand their prescence over into the *BSD
> projects?

I wasn't aware that the KDE people were working on a framebuffer version. Are you confusing it with the Qt framebuffer?

And it's "presence."

> and using their FSF clout to force Redhat to
> hemogenize the redhat/linux desktop;

"Homogenize?" Redhat was hardly forced by Gnome to do anything. I suspect you are confusing them with Ximian.

> Truly, the GNU worlds' greatest example of
> the american dream -realised!

"American dream?" I was under the impression that KDE was largely a European effort.

> So, I say Huzzah to KDE!

Agreed.

Re:Finally reaping the fruits of their toil! (1)

Bold Marauder (673130) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978612)

>That would be "entire",
Thanks!
>and I believe *nix is probably more appropriate.
Look at how it's written in the story copy. :)
>> So, I say Huzzah to KDE!

>Agreed.
Indeed.

Re:Finally reaping the fruits of their toil! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978553)

This is good, very good.

Many will claim it's proof Linux is now better than windows and can take over the desktop, etc... but it's not. So far it's proof that things are getting closer and closer to overthrowing The Monopoly, that one more fault of a complete OSS solution is under control. . That's a good thing just on its own.

Now for the KDE team to continue their work and advocacy in other areas for competing with Windows - the windows Universal Virus Propogation Environment. Anyone got any plans for that one? :)

Re:Finally reaping the fruits of their toil! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978671)

You're so full of it.

Re:Finally reaping the fruits of their toil! (5, Insightful)

Numen (244707) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978680)

[quote]
Truly, the GNU worlds' greatest example of the american dream -realised!
[/quote]

Well like yeehaw and stuff, but KDE is largely a European dream.... which is actually just petty retort on my part in response to your attempt to make "the dream" somehow nationally proprietary.

Keep the jingoism at home, or at least keep the jingoism related to things that actually have something to do with your nationhood.

Re:Finally reaping the fruits of their toil! (2, Interesting)

Mister Proper (567223) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978697)

I disagree with most of your points but I'll confine myself to only two of your assertions since the other ones have already been replied to.
While GNOME was making critical mis-steps such as following in the footsteps of Microsoft, and using their FSF clout to force Redhat to hemogenize the redhat/linux desktop;
"Following in the footsteps of Micrsoft", what's that supposed to mean? I've always thought KDE resembles Windows more than GNOME. For example, KDE favors the same button ordering as Windows and has plenty of preferences in their programs (which I find Microsoftish, although KDE takes this further -- case in point: the overwelhming amount of options in konqueror). In contrast GNOME took over somewhat the button ordering of MacOS and advocates to keep only sane and necessary preferences, going as far as moving the preferences perceived only by power-users as necessary to gconf.

The hemogenizing that Red Hat did with GNOME and KDE isn't that great from a GNOME perspective either. Consider for example that the menu bar on top was dropped in favour of the old foot menu, to make the desktop experience similar to KDE.

I prefer GNOME because of its simplicity but I reckon that's a personal preference.

Re:Finally reaping the fruits of their toil! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978710)

That foot was rather ugly IMO. I personally like what redhat did to 8.0 and 9.0. As well as other improvements, it was the first time I realized how far Linux has come in the past few years.

Re:Finally reaping the fruits of their toil! (1)

Bold Marauder (673130) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978711)

"Following in the footsteps of Micrsoft", what's that supposed to mean?
I'm refering to their shift in focus on implementing C#.

Finally reaping the fruits of their toil!-Troll. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978739)

>># "Following in the footsteps of Micrsoft", what's that supposed to mean?

"I'm refering to their shift in focus on implementing C#."

That's Miguels pet project. And using "their" is being disengenious. That's like saying everyone at KDE agrees with Mosfet (cringes is more like it).

Re:Finally reaping the fruits of their toil! (2, Interesting)

Mister Proper (567223) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978785)

Ah, but it's Ximian that's doing the work in that department, not the GNOME project itself. If I understand correctly the question if C# should be used in GNOME is still undecided and in fact has not been raised yet (or rather, it has been postponed until Mono is more mature).

I remember a lot of ambivalence from GNOME developers when Mono was announced so I don't believe the answer to this issue is obvious. Although to be fair it must be said that Ximian hires quite a few GNOME core developers, most of which I assume are pretty excited about Miguel's pet project. Because of that I don't expect Mono to be shot down without some vivid discussion. ;)

Personally I would love to see Mono/Gtk# programs being accepted into the GNOME project. In fact, I believe it would fit right in with GNOME's aim for being programming language agnostic. On a sidenote, if Mono code started appearing in GNOME I'd probably start helping out where I can (I really dislike C and C++ and I don't care if anyone wants to call me a weeny because of that :P).

great... (2, Funny)

larry bagina (561269) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978476)

but what about countries besides Poland?

GOAT SEX! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978479)

http://www.goatse.cx

Re:GOAT SEX! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978507)

wanring - do not copy and paste that link into your browser's address bar and hit return! you have been warned...

Polish? (4, Funny)

jpsowin (325530) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978480)

I now see KDE taking the lead in polish and professionalism on the desktop

I bet those Polish people are happy... :)

Re:Polish? (1)

Bold Marauder (673130) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978495)

I can hear their IT people griping about all the proffesionalism being exported out of the country, ala' their own H1B laws. ;)

Re:Polish? (2, Funny)

MrEd (60684) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978497)

Re:Polish? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978531)

Polish? polish?

See? Ain't no difference between a Polack and a shine!

Not bad at all. (2, Insightful)

dbarclay10 (70443) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978487)

It's a pretty small installation as these things go, but most business uses probably revolve around those sizes of networks.

So good news.

And, if it turns out that it's bullshit, at least it's first-rate bullshit :)

Ehh (5, Insightful)

Timesprout (579035) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978488)

We are operating a LTSP server with (at this date) twelve concurrent users. We also have another four stand-alone workstations used at some of our other sites.

Without wishing to be overly critical 12 users does not constitute Enterprise level. Yes its nice to see a success story but do we really need to get a story on every KDE/GNOME deploment in the universe ? Can we maintain some perspective with the headlines please.

Re:Ehh (2, Insightful)

snilloc (470200) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978638)

Yeah, ditto that, AND they still need XP workstations for AutoCad, and idiots are still sending them MS-only files.

Sure, this is great - they're saving cash and maintaining productivity, but they're far from the "dream" of a totally MS-free environment.

Re:Ehh (4, Funny)

prockcore (543967) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978891)

Yes its nice to see a success story but do we really need to get a story on every KDE/GNOME deploment in the universe ?

This just in.. I've just deployed GNOME on my laptop. I can't say how much money it has saved me, accounting is still working on the numbers. Upper management (my wife) is still resistant to converting the entire household.. but we're making progress.

Further bulletins as events unfold.

sure (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978491)

"I now see KDE taking the lead in polish and professionalism on the desktop"

Yeah, and i see hot chicks. But I still spend saturday night alone, reading slashdot, and jacking off.

Someone explain the (L)GPL to the guy... (5, Interesting)

netsharc (195805) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978505)

that when he wants to develop an in-house program that isn't going to be distributed anywhere else, the GPL doesn't require him to release his sources to the public, so he didn't need to be really concerned about the licensing issue.

Re:Someone explain the (L)GPL to the guy... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978525)

until a disgruntled employee sneaks a copy of the program out and files a nuisance lawsuit requring that the source code be released. Yes, it happened to the company I used to work for (and it wasn't me :)

Rick.

Re:Someone explain the (L)GPL to the guy... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978709)

no it didnt.

the company has to RELEASE the program to the public. stolen property is not RELEASED by the company.

nice troll though

Re:Someone explain the (L)GPL to the guy... (3, Interesting)

CoolVibe (11466) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978597)

Someone moderate this guy up, because he's spot-on.

Oh, and I'm a full-time KDE user too... albeit not on Linux... KDE has worked wonders for me on FreeBSD and Solaris too! KDE is not Linux-centric.

Re:Someone explain the (L)GPL to the guy... (1, Informative)

g4dget (579145) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978848)

Just keep in mind that if you develop for KDE/Qt, you spend months learning Qt and tooling up for it. Then you end up paying thousands of dollars to them if you actually want to create a product.

Using Qt would make a lot of sense if this was still the early 1980's and there were no good C/C++ toolkits around. But today, there are plenty of good toolkits. You get the entire Microsoft Enterprise developer suite for less money than a Qt developer license. And you can use Gtk+/Gtkmm and wxWindows for free, even for commercial applications.

Is Qt that much better to justify its steep price? I don't think so. But you have to decide for yourself. Just be aware of the price before you invest the time learning it.

Screenshots of KDE on UNIX (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978511)


Screenshots here [got.net]

THOSE AIN'T SCREENSHOTS!!! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978667)

n/t

Duh... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978512)

KDE has been the best desktop for a long time. (Yes it starts up slow ... but I love taskbars.) fvwm95 is still pretty cool though. Its really fast.

How many users? (1)

AIXadmin (10544) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978513)

I am curious, how many users does this person have?


I would think a small office would be much easier to convert then a large office.

Re:How many users? (1)

Wumpus (9548) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978543)

Twelve, according to the article. You must have missed that when you read it.

They're on LTSP, and loving it.

A flash-only web site?? (1)

pyite69 (463042) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978514)

These guys are supposed to be Linux-friendly; yet
their web site is useless! Come on, guys

Re:A flash-only web site?? (2, Informative)

Lshmael (603746) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978532)

Much as I hate all Macromedia products (grr!), there is a Flash plugin for Netscape-compatible browsers that is for Linux. Go here [macromedia.com] .

Re:A flash-only web site?? (1)

LDoggg_ (659725) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978572)

Though kind of a cheesy site, worked fine here using Mozilla on linux with the flash plug-in.

Re:A flash-only web site?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978582)

I agree. Flash-only is a significant web faux pas, not to mention annoying. I find most flash-only sites to be nothing more than grandstanding "Look at me, I just finished the Flash tutorial". Well, that may be a bit harsh, but less is more. Use Flash conservatively, unless your website is www.homestarrunner.com, in which case, do whatever the heck you want.

KDE Success in the Enterprize? (2, Funny)

schnits0r (633893) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978517)

Did Picard endorse this?

Re:KDE Success in the Enterprize? (4, Funny)

CleverNickName (129189) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978763)

Did Picard endorse this?

Yep. The new apps "KPolarityReverse and KSensorArrayMod" are awesome.

Oh, crap. I gotta go. I have a runaway "KNanite" process.

Re:KDE Success in the Enterprize? (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978896)

>echo "Shut up, Wesley!"

Display Works chose KDE (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978518)

They also chose to make their front page a HUGE flash animation that takes several minutes to load.

I like KDE, but this adds no credibility!

Good deal, KDE is a great desktop (3, Interesting)

pair-a-noyd (594371) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978581)

It's hard to say anything bad about the latest release. Works great for me.
And I've set several first time LInux converts up on it and they not only like it, they have a fairly easy time adjusting from windows to Linux.

It's really a good thing.

Thanks KDE guys, you got a good thing going!

Re:Good deal, KDE is a great desktop (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978614)

It's slow.

Re:Good deal, KDE is a great desktop (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978871)

That's great. Now tell them to run up to Wal-Mart and buy a new game and install it. Or one of the several PrintShop clones ... or, heck, anything.

I bet they'll have LOTS of fun setting up WINE and building shell scripts to switch between config files because the configuration that runs one thing might not run anything else ... if the app runs at all.

Linux isn't even CLOSE to ready for the consumer desktop. KDE can get as pretty as it wants, but that's just putting a shiny, colorful band-aid on a raw, infected wound.

Hello? Hello? (5, Insightful)

Slur (61510) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978593)

Is UNIX ready for the desktop?

Yeah, I think so. [apple.com]

You can go back to sleep now.

Re:Hello? Hello? (1, Troll)

mrscorpio (265337) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978688)

Troll?

It's been clarified many times that OS X is not Unix (OINUX?) Yellow Dog is Linux, but OS X is not Unix.

Do a search on google, hell do a search on SLASHDOT for any mac/unix related article, and find out why.

Chris

Re:Hello? Hello? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978740)

I'd much rather hear it from the horse's ass. Oh, wait. I just did.

clarified? (3, Informative)

Slur (61510) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978808)

I use NetBSD every day. I use Mac OS X every day. They're both UNIX as far as I'm concerned, regardless of how many Erdos points they are removed from their AT&T ancestry.

You know what the Mac Window Manager is? It's a UNIX daemon. You know what Mac OS X "Web Sharing" is? It's Apache. You know what the core compiler of ProjectBuilder is? It's gcc.

Perhaps my definition of "UNIX" is too broad for some, but I see no reason to split hairs about something built around the same foundation and principles. However I will happily agree that Windows NT is not UNIX.

Re: (2, Funny)

Mithrilhall (673222) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978622)

Why the Polish...I mean come on...what about us! =)

Better than windows (4, Interesting)

quantaman (517394) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978645)

I personally find KDE to be better than Explorer for me. Of course windows on a whole is still far more user friendly when one considers program instillation, learning curve, and generally things working. However if one were to consider the desktop environment of windows compared to KDE I do find KDE to be superior.

Configurability: KDE hands down, the Control Center simply allows so much to be configured, my system is currently set up to respond precisely how I want it. Windows respond to mouse overs after the time I specified, right number of desktops with the correct visibility of other apps, themability also a big plus. Don't know if XP has themability or to what degree but I don't consider it a major function.

Look & Feel: Used to give it to Windows but now I think I like KDE better. Basically a function of familiarity of the system combined with actual looks, themability helps KDE here.

Usability: Both have a fairly comprehensive start menu. I'll discount the points I could give KDE for a greater amount of software initially since this isn't necessarily a long term effect as you'll fill both with software you need eventually. However I do prefer the KMenus method for listing large numbers of programs as a heirarchy, when Windows tries to list 3 full columns at once it's much too slow especially since you probably already know the location of the item you're looking for. Also KDE gets points for multiple desktops, yes I know that you can get programs for Windows to mimic that but it doesn't work as well, most notably it simply hide apps so that cycling through apps in one desktop gives you apps for all desktops. The file manager for windows is generally nicer but the combination of file manager and CLI built in for KDE should give it the advantage there but I'll call it a tie.

Either way overall I prefer KDE but after a certain level it comes down to familiarity. I used to use Windows alot and prefered that but recently I've almost entirely switched over to Linux, just found that the things I did alot were just as good and easy in Linux. Actually it's mostly multiple desktops that gets me. Frankly Gaim still isn't up to par with Trillian and Evolution isn't as nice as Eudora but the entire environment is nicer to work in. But either way that isn't directly pretaining to the Window Manager.

Re:Better than windows (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978692)

It's clear you've never used Windows 2000 because it's resolved some of the issues that you mention. Most notable: 2000 no longer tries to display more than one column.

XP/2000/98 have always been themeable (though exclusing XP, this required thrid party software.)

So it looks like you just prefer KDE.

Re:Better than windows (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978693)

I agree with you on Gaim. Recently though, it has been making improvements, though. It has a neat looking display for the buddylist, and editing buddies no longer requires a seperate list. There still could be somework done on the "Alias"ing though.. When I click on a name, and choose the option "Alias"- I'm taken right to a textbox with the label "Username". This is the actual username, like trashcan@hotmail.com, not the alias/nickname. Why would you even want to change that? You add a new buddy if you want a new buddy, you don't change someone else's entry... And the sounds it comes with... Horrible! Whatever I suppose..

Re:Better than windows (4, Informative)

Osty (16825) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978725)

[KDE] Windows respond to mouse overs after the time I specified, right number of desktops with the correct visibility of other apps, themability also a big plus. Don't know if XP has themability or to what degree but I don't consider it a major function.

All of that is available in Windows. Get TweakUI from the Power Toys [microsoft.com] page and you can enable X-Mouse if you like focus-follows-mouse functionality (personally, I don't like it, but to each his own). You can also theme XP with StyleXP from TGTSoft [tgtsoft.com] (or if you don't want to pay, you can find the uxtheme.dll hack on google -- search for "uxtheme.dll SP1", no quotes). Tons of themes are available [themexp.org] .


However I do prefer the KMenus method for listing large numbers of programs as a heirarchy, when Windows tries to list 3 full columns at once it's much too slow especially since you probably already know the location of the item you're looking for.

That's just organization. There's nothing stopping you from organizing your Program Files menu on the Start Menu in Windows. KDE has a nice organization because it comes with a lot of apps to begin with. Windows on the other hand tends to rely on separate software, and each installer wants to have its own top-level menu. Don't let it. Some apps play nice, like all of Microsoft Games Studio's games -- they all install under "Microsoft Games" rather than having one menu for each game. So, organize the menu if you don't like the default.


Also KDE gets points for multiple desktops, yes I know that you can get programs for Windows to mimic that but it doesn't work as well, most notably it simply hide apps so that cycling through apps in one desktop gives you apps for all desktops. The file manager for windows is generally nicer but the combination of file manager and CLI built in for KDE should give it the advantage there but I'll call it a tie.

Try the Virtual Desktop Manager, again from Power Toys [microsoft.com] . It does multiple desktops correctly, though it does have some other issues. Also, I guess I'm not familiar with KDE's file manager/CLI (I assume you mean Konqueror?), but remember that the Konqueror design is essentially Explorer/Internet Explorer's design -- it's really little more than a container for other objects. There's a Power Toy to open a command prompt from a folder, or you could try something like this [codeproject.com] instead, a command prompt explorer bar to put a CLI directly in the explorer window. Is that what you mean KDE does?


Sure, right out of the box KDE is more configurable and has a little more functionality (virtual desktops, mostly). But with a little work and using only that which is built into Windows or Power Toys provided by Microsoft directly (ie, not replacing your shell with something like LiteStep, or paying for something like StarDock's WindowBlinds) you can make Windows (XP) do everything that made you choose KDE over Windows. The only thing Windows can't do is run on top of Linux :).

Re:Better than windows (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978788)

since you are touting Windows sooo much, where can i download it from. oh yeah, i want the source code also, so it will be optimized for MY system.

in 20-30 years, let me know, until then, i will stick with my free as in beer, and free as in speech, and a whole hell of a lot better than anything microsoft has, well ever produced.

and seriosuly, you need to stop comparing a DOS prompt to bash, they dont compare. the "DOS Prompt " in windows always was a joke and always will be

Re:Better than windows (1)

Ryne (78636) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978768)

Not exactly on topic, but how does MAC OS stack up to windows and kde? Could anyone who has it share some opinions?

Re:Better than windows (1)

7-Vodka (195504) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978807)

you know trillian and eudora worked perfectly for me under wine the last time i tried it.

Re:Better than windows (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978873)

VirtuaWin [telia.com] is a great free virtual desktop manager for Windows.

Enterprise? (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978668)

Give me a break, I have friends with more computers and servers in their homes than this company. No matter how bad KDE was, that Sysadmin could walk around to each desk and teach everyone in the company how to work with KDE in one day.

Great... (4, Insightful)

ultrabot (200914) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978672)

KDE is indeed very polished, snappy and comfortable, arguably more so than Gnome (apart from Red Hat's excellent Gnome). However, Gnome & GTK is a more future-proof *platform*, since you can develop a toy application with it, and if it is succesful, you can release it with whatever license you/your employer wants to use. With KDE & QT, your application will only be GPL, unless you cough up the money for QT license *before* you start developing your app.

For example, I develop Python applications in my current job. There are some python libraries that can't be released under GPL, by any means (the will of the company, not mine). In those cases, I just can't import those libraries when I develop a GUI application if I use PyQT. However, with PyGTK, I can release anything I want with any license I want.

So, the main point is that even if your application could be GPL, all the libs that the application would use can't necessarily be so. Of course one can use CORBA etc. the insulate the non-GPL portions, but it's a drag and I'd much rather use GTK. The code that uses GTK can be deployed everywhere without worries, with QT you have to keep vigilant that you don't accidentally GPL'ize anything.

In my view a library is not a "commodity" until its use is absolutely free of strings. That's the reason I avoid proprietary libraries, and GPL libraries. Liberate the infrastructure!

Re:Great... (3, Informative)

Arandir (19206) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978733)

With KDE & QT, your application will only be GPL...

Minor correction: your application must be Open Source, but it need not be limited to the GPL. You see, Free Qt isn't under the GPL, it's under a dual GPL/QPL. No, it's still not going to let you release pay-for software without using a pay-for Qt, but you still have a lot of latitude regarding licensing.

Re:Great... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978811)

how do you accidently GPL anything?

either you took the code, or you didnt. there is no in between. if you are developing a commercial app, that should be known ahead of time.

accidently GPLize?, sounds like a lot of laziness, and a dash of incompetance

if your employer cant make up its mind of whether to release it as a free or commercial app, BEFORE development commences, your employer has larger issues to worry about

I still can't decide (1)

simul (113898) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978852)

I wrote a language 5 years ago and I've used it to develop sites for brokerage firms. I still can't decide whether to GPL it or not. It's a tough decision. Lots of benefits (more developers, more usage, bugs fixed over time, etc.)... but then I don't have the evil leverage I once had.

Re:Great... (4, Insightful)

ultrabot (200914) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978878)

how do you accidently GPL anything?

You have a proprietary library. You develop an application, that can as well be open source, or proprietary, you don't care. So you use QT, because it appears to do the job well. At some point in time, someone thinks that a feature from the proprietary library might be handy for the app, and you link that library to the app, thinking that it doesn't matter, you just ship a closed source version. The application is shipped to the client, client sees that it should be GPL due to QT being used (note that you can't buy the QT license and make the app closed-source afterwards - QT doesn't allow that). Client requires the sources to the proprietary library and rights to distribute it under GPL.

accidently GPLize?, sounds like a lot of laziness, and a dash of incompetance

These things can happen when people are not watchful (or competent) and time is in short supply. With LGPL & GTK, this is simply not an issue at all.

GPL is greatest thing since sliced bread for layers of infrastructure that you don't have to link against (OS's, apps). Not so good for libraries.

if your employer cant make up its mind of whether to release it as a free or commercial app, BEFORE development commences, your employer has larger issues to worry about

Occasionally people will just play around with something that might become useful in a open source OR closed source app, without knowing in advance. I want to know that if I create something useful, I am free to use it in my day job and hobby alike. With QT I don't have that option.

QT is probably very good for what it is, but for this reason it can never become the de facto standard of Linux GUI development. GTK can, and quite probably will.

Re:Great... (3, Insightful)

Spy Hunter (317220) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978856)

With KDE & QT, your application will only be GPL, unless you cough up the money for QT license *before* you start developing your app.

Why would that be? As the copyright holder, you can change the license any time you want. You can start it as GPL when it's in-house, and change the license later if you want to sell it outside of your company.

Re:Great... (1, Interesting)

ultrabot (200914) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978883)

Why would that be? As the copyright holder, you can change the license any time you want. You can start it as GPL when it's in-house, and change the license later if you want to sell it outside of your company.

Not so with QT. Can't remeber the exact terms, but that procedure is explicitly forbidden. If you start it as a GPL project using QT, you can't just change license. You have to buy the QT license and develop a new app from scratch. I can't even begin to think about how ridiculous that must feel for the unfortunate programmer that receives the task, and to what extend copy-paste is allowed in such an endeavour.

Re:Great... (1)

RPoet (20693) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978881)

You have to admit the main advantage of GNOME is the ability to write closed-source software for it. This aspect of the LGPL is exactly why Stallman is recommending not to use it [gnu.org] . Given all this, I can't help but think Stallman wishes he could rethink the choice of GNOME as the GNU desktop.

This qualifies as success in the enterprise? (5, Insightful)

Numen (244707) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978708)

Aww come on chaps.

As an individual story this is kinda cool. As a slashdoy headline of "KDE success in the enterprise" it's just sad.

And I would imagine all the Apple users raised an eyebrow at "is Unix ready for the desktop".

Like some business somewhere uses KDE on their desktop... so what? You not see how desperate it is to be going nuts over this rather small instance... how many desktops exactly are involved here?

There have to be better examples than this.

Re:This qualifies as success in the enterprise? (1)

darcwyrm (633543) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978853)

Lots of businesses use KDE on their desktops. As well as Gnome and CDE to name a few. That's the great thing about UNIX. You always have a choice. Most enterprises prefer to have a "computer system" instead of a bunch of peecees on an ethernet.

Good to see KDE::Enterprise is making headway (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978716)

As KDE has been making excellent progress into providing a unified approach to the desktop, I was getting concerned as to the level of effort into getting KDE into the enterprise.

I guess these things take time, but from http://enterprise.kde.org's website hadn't seen an update since Feb 2002 its good to see we are starting to demostrate the power that KDE 3.1 has. Not to mention that there is room for KDE within the enterprise and should be considered to be a contender in this space.

With KDE 3.2 clearly within our sights, I welcome the inclusion of policy restrictions into KDE's framework to effectively allow lockout policies. (This will allow all applications to follow a policy conduct as to what the user can do, execute it, not allowed to ect.). Note: It's presently there in 3.1, but no GUI interface.

Looking at the current CVS builds, including groupware collboration (meeting events etc) functionality in kmail and korganiser I'm very excited!

I'm running Suse 8 with the latest KDE build and I'm pleasently suprised how well it operates.

Power to the users!

69 (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978743)

Post number 69!!!!!!!!

Mod this up as funny!!!!!

If you do not know what 69 is, click HERE [vulgarvideo.com]

Desktop Ready on Enterprise Level is REAL! (5, Informative)

westyvw (653833) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978744)

After reading comments that there should be more examples, and a larger amount of clients would add credibility, I would say there is:

How about 450 thin clients running KDE with 800 users? All running from one Linux server box. Now that sounds good!

Articles:

http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/m ai n/0,14179,2860180-1,00.html

and the follow up:

http://newsforge.com/newsforge/02/12/04/2346215. sh tml?tid=19

Re:Desktop Ready on Enterprise Level is REAL! (1)

LamerX (164968) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978770)

Mod this guy up! He's right on the money!

Those guys in Florida have a huge amazing network!

They've been on Slashdot before.

Just search the web, and you'll find TONS of people using it on the desktop.

kde: mickey mouse or sesame street? (1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978752)



I now see KDE taking the lead in polish and professionalism on the desktop


With the mickey mouse icons and an interface that looks like it belongs on sesame street, that's some nice polish and real professionalism.

I just checked out the new kde by trying knoppix for the first time (I'm still using 2.2.2 and 3.0.something on the two desktop installs I have), and while the latest kde release is so good I have trouble leaving the computer, it still strikes me how cartoonish the icons, buttons, and general widgets are.

I think they're very good, and kde in general is getting quite excellent, but the cartoonish appearance simply detracts from what is otherwise a fantastic piece of work. Professionalism? Are cartoonish icons/buttons/widgets professional?

That being said, I can live with the cartoonish features, and can't wait to update all of my computers. But I think they could do better for corporate desktops.

So has matrix 2 hit gnutella in decent numbers yet?

I tried the gtk-gnutella 1.* series on suse 8.0 after I couldn't get the 2.* series working (or was that 0.* after 1.* failed?) due to dependency failures. Just a few days after I downloaded and installed it, I get messages telling me that the release is full of bugs/issues, I have to upgrade. What a pia.

So with the new suse 8.2, and the new kde/compilers/whatever, I should be able to get the newer gtk-gnutella working. How stable is it? Does the release last at least a few months without a forced upgrade?

Re:kde: mickey mouse or sesame street? (1)

westyvw (653833) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978758)

To put it nicely: You can change the look to whatever you want it to be. Knoppix has their way you can have yours. Its that simple with KDE.

Recent Experience (5, Insightful)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978761)

His mention of building KDE reminded me of my recent FreeBSD install experience. After getting pissed off at RedHat constantly locking up my USB mouse (I don't know why I keep trying Linux distros. I must be a sucker for punishment or something.) and failing to support my NVidia card (Your kernel is too old, update. Oh wait, now it's too new, downgrade. RPM compile? I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that) I decided to try building a trusty FreeBSD box instead. I figured, "if Linux is here, BSD must already be there too!" Well, I was right and wrong at the same time.

My first attempt was to build a Gnome desktop similar to RedHat. FreeBSD 5.0 itself installed cleanly, and with the help of a FAQ I was able to build NVidia drivers for 5.0. (One kernel module! You hear me Linus!!! One module for every friggin' kernel! BTW, for anyone who wants to do this, 5.0 is not officially supported by NVidia. The module will not install by default! You need to modify the header to remove the 5.0 checks and use the new AGP stuff.) So far, so good. I begin the build of Gnome. It built and installed cleanly. Unfortunately, the desktop was a little sparse and didn't look like the RedHat desk at all.

So I began tweaking it. I added Bluecurve to replace the hideous default theme and then tried attacking the problem of installing programs. It soon tells me "Only root can add to the foot menu". Fine. So I log in as root and modify the menus. Come back as the user and none of the new icons show up! Is this a sick joke? Even worse, I cvsuped and upgraded to Nautilus 2.2. Suddenly, I have no way to change the Nautilus theme, it looks like crap, and all my icons are "unknown documents". On the bright side, I can sample the beginning of an MP3 by mousing over. Swell. A search on Google Groups tells me that a *lot* of people are having this problem with Nautilus (both Linux and BSD) and noone has yet found a solution. But don't worry! They'll have an XML config file in the next version that will fix all this. Couldn't they have done this in the first place? This goes on for awhile, with the desktop getting worse the more I tried to tweak it. Oh, and it's impossible to copy desktop settings between users. Apparently, these config files are tailored to individual logins. They look like serialized objects or something. Bonobo perhaps? Finally I give up and install KDE.

Now, I didn't install KDE to begin with, because the 2.x UI was kind of flakey. It wasn't that it didn't work, it just kind of flashes and resizes in a very ugly fashion. None the less, I figured that 3.1 couldn't be any worse than Gnome. So I cvsup and begin a "make install". It begins building. And building. And (this thing is huge!) a day later I have a KDE desktop installed. No install problems to report. I booted up my brand new desktop, and.... WOW, IS IT EVER BEAUTIFUL. Well, save for the fonts. I had to tweak those a bit. 12 pt. Arial looked too thick on the screen. Later I loaded my TTFs from my NTFS partition. Cheating, but hey. Nice fonts are nice fonts. :-)

Anyway, I just started *using* my KDE desktop. There really wasn't all that much I needed to tweak. I got Russian keymappings set up for my wife (a seemingly impossible task under GNO-it doesn't work-ME), installed KDevelop (nice IDE!), Netbeans (I love how unixes don't touch the swap file), and FreeBSD OpenOffice 1.1 (Side note: needs a full install per user. Yuck.). Worked like a charm. Even my wife, who usually hates these experiments, really loved this desktop. She soon was browsing the web, checking email, typing letters, etc. without my help. And she absolutely *loved* the action sounds.

So here I sit. One KDE desktop on the nicest OS known to man (maybe save for OSX) and I am happier than a clam. The really great part about KDE was that everything *just works*. Like with BSD where sendmail works from the point of install, KDE never needed my help to get working. I just had to tell it my preferences, plus enable KDM and I was good to go. No hassle, no idiot scripts to break, nice drag and drop functionalty, sensible directory layouts, and Desktop shortcuts that can be copied. Oh, and the ability to set a program to run as another user (e.g. KDevelop as root). And system tray icons like GAIM work. And... oh nevermind. You get the idea.

Don't get me wrong. The GNOME interface is nice, but it just *doesn't work*. It was very nice when I installed it on my Solaris box, but that's because Sun tweaked the hell out of the distribution. The default distribution for GNOME is worthless and a waste of time. Which is really too bad, because it *could* be nice. Get someone to implement some standards in their own software, plus bundle the bare necessities (Mozilla, Galeon, something!) and they could have a decent competitor. Unfortunately, I don't think it's going to happen as long as de Icaza thinks he's like Microsoft except with "Libre". Can someone tell him to pull his head out of his ass?

Re:Recent Experience (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978832)

Where can I buy the abridged version of this post? Thanks

fuck everyone (-1, Troll)

Eminor (455350) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978806)

Fuck everyone for trying to associate their desktop with their agenda. Wheather it be Americanism, Europeon, Communism, hackerism, or I-have-a-bigger-penis-than-you-ism.

This is why I use blackbox.

Re:fuck everyone (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5978859)

amen brotha.. real men bb.

Taking the Lead (0, Redundant)

evronm (530821) | more than 11 years ago | (#5978870)

"I now see KDE taking the lead in polish and professionalism on the desktop"
Wow! It's been a good couple hours since the last flame war. I was starting to get worried, until I saw this...
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