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RFID Tags in Euro Banknotes

michael posted more than 11 years ago | from the mugger's-delight dept.

The Almighty Buck 481

psychictv writes "CNET News.com is reporting that Euro notes could be embedded with RFID tags in the future. 'RFID (radio frequency identification) tags also have the ability of recording information such as details of the transactions the paper note has been involved in...'" The EU has been considering this for a while. You'll never even know they're there.

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New mugging tool (5, Insightful)

maddogsparky (202296) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024165)

Great. Now muggers and pick pockets will be able to use technology to identify prime targets.

Re:New mugging tool (5, Interesting)

KDan (90353) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024207)

Yeah but a rfid-reader wallet connected to the net could report that you've been mugged immediately and 'deactivate' all those notes, making the mugging pointless (the money stops working in all rfid-aware connected cash registers)...

Daniel

Re:New mugging tool (2, Funny)

JanneM (7445) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024222)

Or a 'joke' RFID-reader that will report random rfid numbers as stolen...

Not very likely (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6024282)

At least in the near to mid term.

RFID aware cash registers won't be very useful for a while. If you leave bills in your pocket and you do a wash with the bills in your pants, your money would then become useless. RFID tags are simply not rugged enough yet to be used in that way.

Re:New mugging tool (4, Insightful)

BrookHarty (9119) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024241)

Hey, same with salesmen! Goto the customers with large amounts of cash first. At casinos, they could tell who the high rollers are.

Hey, while we are at it, lets put it on scanners at our stores, and we can detect if employees are leaving with more money than they came to work with.

Re:New mugging tool (3, Funny)

Feztaa (633745) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024386)

we can detect if employees are leaving with more money than they came to work with

Isn't that the whole point of working? To go home with more money than you started with?

Re:New mugging tool (1)

cayenne8 (626475) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024424)

Yeah, first think I thought about was the casinos....

From reading about the MIT people who counted cards against Vegas years ago, where they strapped large amounts of cash to themselves to stake them....I'm wondering if they'll put up recievers at the airports to check for large amounts of cash being transported....?? Great, then, you need to prove your NOT a drug dealer...etc.

So much for paying in cash to remain anonymous.....

Re:New mugging tool (1)

overunderunderdone (521462) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024395)

Now muggers and pick pockets will be able to use technology to identify prime targets.

Assuming the victim reports the theft the next time the mugger buys something the police can pick him up on the way out of the store.

War-Mugging??? (2, Interesting)

The Jonas (623192) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024402)

Kinda like War-Driving but with a "Step 3: Profit!" Another good reason for me to stick to using my Debit Card for most transactions, but there's DARPA's Total Info Awareness project. I guess if we are made to be too paranoid to carry/use cash then all our non-cash transactions are more easily tied-in to us and trackable.

Aaaaahhhhhh (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6024167)

All Your Base Are Belong To Us!!!!!!!

correction (1)

maddogsparky (202296) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024283)

All Your Cash Are Belong to Us!!!!

Re:Aaaaahhhhhh (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6024321)

they set us up the bomb!!!

GREAT IDEA!!! (0, Redundant)

SuperDuG (134989) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024172)

Now all I have to do is put an RFID reader next to someone's wallet/purse and see if it's worth it for me to mug them.

Re:GREAT IDEA!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6024300)

Hmmm... What if the little things got out of the bill and I ingested them or inhaled them? I'd have a value (unfortunately I'd be pretty cheap).

How the hell is this post "redundant" (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6024358)

Redundant means "Already done", but if you would take the time to get your head out of your fucking ass and realize this was one of the first 10 postings, it would be obvious that this is not "Redundant" in any way.

Just because you read from highest to lowest scores doesn't mean that the lower mod wasn't the first.

Learn to read fucking dates and quit handing out negative fucking moderation, that's the dumbest thing ever. You dumb piece of shit moderators.

it's been a while (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6024173)

since i've had a fp

maybe friday loves me

i love you all

no, not really

YOU FAIL IT!! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6024183)

Beeeeyaaaatch!!!

RFID tags that record? (5, Insightful)

jonbrewer (11894) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024175)

"RFID (radio frequency identification) tags also have the ability of recording information such as details of the transactions the paper note has been involved in."

I think you'd be hard pressed to find an RFID tag that could record transaction information inside a bill. You'd need an external device to do the recording.

Re:RFID tags that record? (1)

chmod000 (123913) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024242)

The external device could add a signature to an internal table on the bill. It would have to be something like a point-of-sale bill acceptor.


Thing is, if they start doing that, what if you accidentally microwaved a 100-euro note and destroyed the RFID? Would that make it no good?

Re:RFID tags that record? (4, Informative)

BoomerSooner (308737) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024246)

"RFID (radio frequency identification) tags also have the ability of enabling recording information such as details of the transactions the paper note has been involved in."

They just missed a word.

Re:RFID tags that record? (2, Insightful)

chmod000 (123913) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024310)

Yah, that makes better sense. Although, I still wonder, if the bill's RFID is inactive, is it no good?


If RFID tags were "required" in order to pass the bills as legal tender, then I imagine that anybody who had a defective one would have to exchange it at the bank, just as if it had been torn in half. You wouldn't lose the money, but you couldn't perform untraceable transactions, either.

Re:RFID tags that record? (0, Troll)

fataugie (89032) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024349)

This is interesting if you think about it.

I always wondered how many crotches my singles have been in.

Really, strippers don't take quarters....

Re:RFID tags that record? (2, Insightful)

Enraged_jawa (641736) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024288)

According to the article, "Data can only be written on the chip's ROM during production, and not after it is out "in the wild". However, bank databases could, in theory at least, record bill serial numbers along with the transactions they were in.

Actually.. (4, Informative)

CausticWindow (632215) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024295)

You can get rfid tags with storage capability. Think you can get tags with about 4kb of storage right now.

Check the faq [aimglobal.org] at rfid.org

Re:RFID tags that record? (2)

I_Heat_Sexylaid (675028) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024390)

The currency is run through a machine that sends it data. Bluetooth?
I like the "let's not think this through" approach of the article:
"The main objective is to determine the authenticity of money and to stop counterfeits," Frost and Sullivan analyst Prianka Chopra said in a report published in March.
While anonymity clearly opens doors to illegality, is it really a bug? What about the features of POD money?
Yes, you're going to get tracking data on all manner of 'shadow' transactions...or are you?
How long until some wiseguy starts planting bogus information for meta-illegal purposes?
Now I can accuse you of something, don't even have to prove it, just have to put enough mud in the water through some judicious mis-information to call your reputation into question. Consider the ugliness of credit reports, multiplied.
Stuff like this brings out the dystopian in me.

Mugger's Delight (0, Redundant)

netolder (655766) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024177)

Put together a small body-mount RFID transponder and walk through a crowd. Go after the person who has the most RFID responses. Much better yield for one's mugging efforts.

Nice. (3, Funny)

grub (11606) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024179)


Now people in the EU will know who to sue when they get testicular cancer from all the Euros in their front pockets.

Re:Nice. (1)

3.5 stripes (578410) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024262)

You could probably specify men there, not a lot of women with testicular cancer in the world.

Re:Nice. (3, Funny)

haedesch (247543) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024412)

don't discriminate against Marla Singer :-D

Robberies (5, Insightful)

KDan (90353) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024180)

That would make robberies pretty pointless. If your cash register knows what money is in it, you can press the button to say "it was all stolen" and then no other connected cash register will accept that money anymore unless you get it authenticated by the police or whatever... I can see many massive misuses, but there's also a lot of potential good uses...

Daniel

Re:Robberies (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6024423)

But you could still buy crack.

Thats not how you steal money. (1, Insightful)

oliverthered (187439) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024433)

Break into a computer system,
Transfer money to a Swiss bank account (Billions)...
Do the time (15years max)
Come out and retire.

Or if you white collar.
Get a job at XYZ bank.
Embezzle money in a Swiss bank account(trillions)
Do the time (10years max?)
Come out and retire.

If you a dirty scumbag
Buy a gun
Hold up a bank for a few hundred thousand.
Get shot, do the time (25years max)
Come out, and kill yourself.

Hey! I'm mugging you! (4, Funny)

aug24 (38229) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024181)

According to this doo-hickey here, you've got money in your shoe too...

Re:Hey! I'm mugging you! (3, Interesting)

Flabby Boohoo (606425) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024369)

Kinda frightening that there are so many posts with this same logic.

If you'll never know that they're there... (5, Interesting)

Angry White Guy (521337) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024185)

They'll never notice that you've taken them out.

Micrrowave your cash today!

Re:If you'll never know that they're there... (1)

Manos Batsis (608014) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024240)

They'll never notice that you've taken them out.

I dont think so. Checking for valid euro notes will probably include the existance of an operational RFID.

Anyway, should protest against this... anyone knows of any efforts against this?

Re:If you'll never know that they're there... (1)

Angry White Guy (521337) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024277)

There is no way that they could enforce that. You'd have to have your own RFID reader to get the fiver that your buddy owes you.

Sweet! (1)

mschoolbus (627182) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024188)

Must... make... RFID... writer...

Great... (4, Funny)

Waab (620192) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024199)

"RFID tags also have the ability of recording information such as details of the transactions the paper note has been involved in.

Wonderful. Now how am I supposed to buy porn? Can't use credit card, it gets tracked. Can't use cash, it gets tracked. And with the price of porn these days, who's strong enough to haul around that much change?

Re:Great... (1)

moehoward (668736) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024260)

They can't track who is spending the money, only that it was spent somewhere on something. If you fear the bank is giving you cash from the ATM and then tracking how you spend it, just trade cash with other people.

I don't like this, but I don't think that it is as Orwellian as it sounds on the face.

Re:Great... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6024394)

Now how am I supposed to buy porn?

You actually BUY pr0n? In STORES???
Haven't you heard? We have this thing called the INTERNET now!

Great for thieves, too! (3, Interesting)

rnelsonee (98732) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024200)

Since we all know portable RFID readers will become available commerically, what's to stop a thief from carrying around his reader and then summing up how much people in the street have in their wallets? Just wait around late at night, wait for some woman to walk by with $300, and then just rob her? I'd bet there would be more muggings if the average pay went from $40 to a few hundred...

Re:Great for thieves, too! (3, Interesting)

aug24 (38229) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024297)

Since most muggers are only after fifty bucks for a rock, prolly the opposite! Less crime through better targetting ;-)

J.

Re:Great for thieves, too! (1)

AchilleTalon (540925) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024410)

At least, they won't kill anymore for nothing...

uh, woah? (3, Interesting)

spectral (158121) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024201)

Damn, I didn't realize they could be that small.. I don't know how durable it would be though? If there was a way to make certain that they were in the notes, I could see it being a nice way to check to see if the notes added up to the value punched in by the cashier: a kind of redundancy. It would take a while til the new notes with these things were in decent enough circulation to make this viable, but would still be interesting. Too many people would start to rely on it though, which might not be a good idea.

I'm just wondering how easy it would be for something that tiny to get scratched/cut off? I'm not so worried about privacy implications (maybe I'm not paranoid enough), but I'm sure there'll be some posts of that line soon enough.

No, I haven't read the article. :)

Re:uh, woah? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6024414)

What's the failure rate of these devices? Faulty money could be a real drag. I suppose with such small size it would be trivial to insert a few dozen around the note all carrying the same serial number.

Also what does it take to render them useless on purpose? If it's too easy then privacy activists may sit quietly beside cash dispensing machines zapping everyone's money as they walk away.

One question... (5, Interesting)

HomerNet (146137) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024204)

Why bother? Why not push for full digital convergence and have everyone use EFT for ALL transactions? We're headed that way anyway, I haven't used paper cash in nearly a month now for anything.

Some people don't take credit. (4, Funny)

BoomerSooner (308737) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024284)

Strippers, hookers, drug dealers, public utilities, congress persons, ...

See the connection?

Re:Some people don't take credit. (1)

CausticWindow (632215) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024376)

Yes. So it won't happen anytime soon.

Btw, in Europe, using a card isn't the same as using credit. Most banks have cards where the balance is checked before the transaction is ok.

And some hookers take cards.

Wow! Yet another reason to go to Europe! (1)

BoomerSooner (308737) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024411)

Hooker via credit card! I guess I'll have a hard time explaining that charge to my wife for "Busty Bertha's Whoring Service". Lol, hookers that take credit cards. What's next? Drug dealers!

Re:One question... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6024427)

Because some will just revert back to trading goods!
I was thinking of sending half a cow and 2 chickens as my tax return anyway.

Isn't progress grand?

Where's that bill been? (5, Insightful)

Red Rocket (473003) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024206)

"Well, I see you picked up this 5 Euro note as change for your purchase of Zovirax on May 12th at the BogoPharm pharmacy on the South Side. You know, you really should be more careful about who you sleep with, Mrs. Zambezi."

Tracking the bills (1)

vnsnes (301511) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024208)

You can just go to http://www.wheresgeorge.com/ [wheresgeorge.com] . ;)

DMCA! (1)

Penguuu (263703) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024213)

And if you take them of, they could use you as illegaly removing the copyright protection ;)

Prevent kidnappers demanding unmarked bills? (1)

seangw (454819) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024232)

"... to track illegal transactions and even prevent kidnappers demanding unmarked bills ..." -Article


I'm kidnapping all your unmarked bills! You'll never see them again! Unless you pay a ransom of more than it is worth.


Traditionally I've called them bank robbers and such. Otherwise robbing a bank suddenly got more profitable if you can kidnap money.


Imagine asking a ransom of $50 on a $1 bill? Recursive theft!

Re:Prevent kidnappers demanding unmarked bills? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6024361)

they are not kidnapping the unmarked bills smartie. they are demanding unmarked bills as ransom for the kids they kidnapped.

Re:Prevent kidnappers demanding unmarked bills? (1)

Kredal (566494) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024409)

No no no...

Kidnapper: Filthy rich swine, I have your daughter. If you ever want to see her again, drop off 50,000 dollars (or euros) in a suitcase next to the old bridge. I want small unmarked, un-RFID'd bills. If you do not meet my demands, your daughter will die!

Rich guy: Oh no!

Gov't Survelliance (2, Insightful)

quandrum (652868) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024236)

Wouldn't this be a fairly decent way to track people? Most people carry money on them, and while the money wouldn't have a unique identifier, I'd imagine someone who's clever could sidestep such. But hey, it would probably be a great way to detect counterfeiting, you know, for about a month :-p Tinfoil hats encouraged while reading this post (Too late!)

Current Euro Notes (1)

SPaReK (320677) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024239)

What about the Current Euro Notes? Will they recall all the notes that and then redistribute them so that they all have the RFID?

Paranoid Conspiracy (1)

sielwolf (246764) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024248)

The EU has been considering this for a while. You'll never even know they're there.

Yeah until the police come to your house late at night asking questions. I guess this is the end of cold cash being the last refuge of private transaction.

Cool. (3, Funny)

mikeophile (647318) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024249)

Now I can launder my money in the microwave oven.

Record this transaction: (4, Interesting)

Bonker (243350) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024251)

European Drug Distributor: Hello, Mister Colombian Drug Lord. Here is the money, I promised you.

Drug Lord: Hola, my French friend. I assume you've prepared the money as I specified?

Distributor: Indeed! Not only are these new notes, freshly received through my cover business, but they have been washed in muddy water, microwaved, and then dried in my daughter's basement.

Drug Lord: Ecellent! Here is the ten kilos of my finest cocaine. Good day to you!

Yeah, a real drug transaction isn't going to go nearly like this, but having the money check what kind of transactions its going through isn't going to work if there is *any* kind of money laundering going on and if *any* kind of competant disabling of RFID tags takes place.

Can you defeat this (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6024256)

by microwaving all your money before hand?

Privacy (3, Insightful)

Mattygfunk1 (596840) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024257)

It would, therefore, also prevent money-laundering, make it possible to track illegal transactions and even prevent kidnappers demanding unmarked bills

Um, excuse me. What about the privacy factor in all this?

If the government / police are able to track illegal transactions then what is stopping them looking at my normal transactions? I don't want just anybody having access to the information about where I buy everything from my lunch to my porn.

This is cash we are talking about and they wanna watch it. Pfft.

Cheap web hosting [cheap-web-...ing.com.au]

So much for cash being anonymous (2, Informative)

RichMan (8097) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024259)

At the bank/machine you are id'd as you get the cash. Your id is tagged to the cash. It becomes possible to trace that cash back to you.

This could destroy thieves and black markets.

Example 1:
Bob has cash. This is known by the system.
Bob has cash stolen. This is reported. Cash is spent in store with electronic cash tracing. This is Bob's stolen cash, a camera catches a picture of the transaction. Theif is id'd.

Example 2:
Cops bust a drug lab and find cash. They know who took the cash out of the bank. They now have a whole list of suspects to check out for posession of drugs.

How well to RFID tags stand up to microwaving? (2, Interesting)

Unknown Poltroon (31628) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024274)

Just curious. THeoretically, of course.

This wont fly. If they dont have an anonomous way of spening the countries cash, they will use something else. Expect a huge groundswell of foregin cash and gold to get started. It is noones busisness what i spend my money on.

Mugging? (1)

IamTheRealMike (537420) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024276)

Is anybody else slightly concerned that so far, more than 50% of the comments have been from people pointing out how much easier this would make mugging? I have to admit, the thought didn't even cross my mind.

I knew there were some shady characters here on the dot, but still. A tad extreme.

The Greater Point (1)

seangw (454819) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024278)

The real point of this whole thing is that a store would probably be required (or coherced) to have a "money reader".

These stores would most likely not have access to information as the RFID would only be an ID, not any more information than that.

A centrally managed database would serve (does anyone else here type "server" whenever typing serve?) to keep all the locations / purchase IDs.

This is very much similiar to credit cards. A store takes your number, but doesn't know all the rest of the stores you've shopped with.

re-write (1)

DarkSkiesAhead (562955) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024285)


does this mean it would be possible to turn your 1 euro bills into 100 euro bills by re-writing or replacing the RFID?

ways to defeat? (1)

i.r.id10t (595143) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024286)

Just out of curiosity, how easy/hard would it be to defeat the tags? For example, my driver's license has a nice mag stripe on the back, like a credit card. I don't know what info is/was stored in there, but I'm pretty sure that after sitting on top of the 5lb magnet I have there isn't anything "useful" left on it. Would the same technique screw up whatever electrical bits are in these tags enough to make them useless?

Am I the only one ... (1)

Ignorant Aardvark (632408) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024287)

Am I the only one who thinks this is a good idea? As long as it's done correctly, it should really cut down on counterfeiting without too many privacy concerns. Also, it will take the concept of tracking money [wheresgeorge.com] to the extreme. Instead of having to write on the notes and hoping people enter the serial number on the website, you can just query the bill itself and it'll tell you where it's been! That seems pretty cool. It would also help cut down on money laundering, money theft, etc.

Re:Am I the only one ... (1)

Scrameustache (459504) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024441)

Am I the only one who thinks this is a good idea? As long as it's done correctly, it should really cut down on counterfeiting without too many privacy concerns.

Yes, you're the only one who thinks that there isn't too many provacy concerns.

You get money from the ATM, the ATM stores a picture of you taking out the money, all the money's ids, your personnnal bank information. Money gets passed around, money ends up in a bad place (drug lab, whatever). Police tracks money back to you, you're in trouble.

Sure, in a perfect world the police would have a full record of where its been, but if it wasn't tracked before it got to the bad place (you bought candy from a kid going door to door, he gave it as change to the drug lord, say), you're in trouble.

That's just one example, there are an infinate scenario of nastiness that can go with that scheme.

The big picture is: This is a tool for a police state, not a free democracy.

What this really is -- The Mark of the Beast (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6024293)

This is part of the Mark of the Beast.

Revelation 13:16-17 "...All people were forced to put a mark on their right hand or forehaed. Wether they were powerful or weak, rich or poor, free people or slaves, they all had to have this mark, or else they could not BUY OR SELL anything..."

Makes sense since Germany is the political power behind the EU and the Pope is the religious power behind Germany (i.e the EU) (the next Pope will be the anti-christ).

Re:What this really is -- The Mark of the Beast (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6024391)

You, dear sir, are reaching.

I have an idea (-1)

anthrax_spork (532086) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024298)

this could be used for mugging people. I bet nobody will think of that!

The value of money (0)

NeuroGrrrl (673087) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024312)

So I'm guessing that these little tags cost money. Perhaps they'll only be able to afford to put them in larger bills. (If it costs more than a dollar to make the dollar, wouldn't the dollar then be worth more?) Furthermore, this brings a whole new aspect to laundering money. The dollar I left in my jeans pocket now registers as counterfeit, meanwhile I invision a basement full of workers adding tiny little radio receivers to monopoly money and having it become legit.

*

It already exists (1)

override11 (516715) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024316)

Its called a 'Credit Card' or even a debit card for those who dont like / cant handle a credit card. Its all tracked, big brother can find your spendding habits, and it ccan be deactivated if its stolen! Just get credit everywhere (McDonalds, I'm talkin to you) and everyone will be all set.

Re:It already exists (1)

Loosewire (628916) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024413)

Just get credit everywhere (McDonalds, I'm talkin to you)
i know how weird is it McD's dont take credit cards. even though their tills look like they have
card readers...

Master of puppets ringtones (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6024322)

It would be cool if these things could play a little Master of Puppets whenever I rolled a bill into a straw.

Chop your breakfast on a mirror.

Kids, some of you are missing the point (4, Insightful)

Catbeller (118204) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024327)

There is no valid reason for tagging the money, since anyone who wants a transaction trail could use an e-cash card.

The Powers are going to eliminate the cash economy. Period. Nothing and no one escapes the net.

We are entering a prison like no other in history, for it will be the entire world.

Unemployement in Europe (1)

moehoward (668736) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024333)

Germany and France have double-digit unemployment right now. Fewer and fewer people have the ability to spend money there every day. So, it may not be the management headache that you think.

Those countries sure have some screwed up priorities, even compared to us in the US.

"Our economy sucks, what should we do?"

"Let's track every piece of cash. That'll do it!"

"Sounds good! Werner! Quick, build a multi-billion dollar system to track every cash transaction in 30 countries!"

It's in the details? (2, Interesting)

PoisonousPhat (673225) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024338)

For one, anyone know what the usable range of these chips are? Must they be activated at point-blank distance, or can the stack of bills be IDd at once from a scanner a few feet away? The article says "With such tags, a stack of notes can be passed through a reader and the sum added in a split second, similar to how inventory is tracked in an RFID-based system." If said tags can then be activated at a distance, would they qualify as more of a surveillance device than a security feature?

Also, is there (or isn't there) the possibility of malfunction, intentional or not? Couldn't someone shoot some sort of HERF gun-type thing at a bag of loot and fry all the chips at once? Does a malfunctioning chip warrant the investigation of individual cases? Many questions down what looks to be the proverbial "slippery slope"...

Dumb, dumb, dumb (1)

dackroyd (468778) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024340)

Just to check

1) how long would you have to stick these in a microwave for to burn out the chips.

2) If you built a transmitter that broadcast at the RFID response-request frequency, at what distance could you burn the chips out ?

How much trouble could you cause walking down Oxford Street dsetroying everyone's money.....

Re:Dumb, dumb, dumb (1)

Loosewire (628916) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024379)


How much trouble could you cause walking down Oxford Street dsetroying everyone's money....

your assuming the UK joins the single European currency...

It's not going to happen. (1)

NetDanzr (619387) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024341)

Officially, the main reason for including these tags is to prevent counterfeiting. Now let's be generous and say that a whole 1% of all Euros are fake (the real number would be much closer to 0.0001%). I doubt that these tags would increase the cost of producing a banknote by less than 1%; more likely, the marginal cost increase will be significant. As such, I don't think that including the RFID tags will be a viable option for the EU.

Good and bad? (1)

Azureflare (645778) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024342)

Well, this would start to make it hard to not report cash income / spending on tax forms. With this tracking mechanism, it could, depending on the implementation, make it no different than using a debit card in a transaction (well, except that it's not from a bank account). They would have a record of the transaction, so that money must have come from somewheres. This would make it a real headache. What kind of technology would be needed to keep track of these bills? Would there be a central database? What about all those little vendors who only take cash (For ex. Gas stations). If the implementation forces tracking of the bills, the small vendors would have to upgrade their technology, which might be costly.

Seems like this is good for reducing counterfits, but also could put a lot of burden on the person using the bills...

They did say it would be possible to track where a bill has been. So I could know if the person who gave me this bill had gone to that adult video store eh?... Privacy could be an issue as well.

Easy to disable? Philips RFID shows the problem... (4, Interesting)

adzoox (615327) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024345)

After reading this story about Philips making RFIDs "capable of being shut off" [zdnet.co.uk] I did some research on how this was done. Apparently the RFID is sent a magnetic signal. I found out, that it appears if RFIDS are subjected to very strong magnetic forces it disables them ANYWAY.

So, my question is, if RFIDs are to be embedded in money, will it still be accepted if the RFID is off or not working. Will you have to take it to a bank (hassle) and get the whole note replaced or REactivated?

I would think people that work in highly magnetic work conditions or that are subject to mild radiation (cell phone users, utility workers, possily computer users) might face this problem.

The Devil's in the details... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6024356)

No seriously. My parents grew up being taught that the coming apocalypse (not necessarily anytime soon, but you never know) would be heralded by the mark of the Beast and all that...well, my Mom won't even use an ATM card because it's practically an extension of that tatooed number on your forehead.

Now it's looking like even paper money is going to be 100% traceable (for a fee, your neighborhood 7-11 could link up to the US Mint's database and download the history of the cash you just paid with -- what transactions it was involved in, who you got it from, who they got it from...if the last recorded owner was, say, a drug dealer, and suddenly you're the next person to use it...they could start looking into what you've been doing in your spare time...).

I don't know. Devil or not, this could have enormous privacy implications...

infrastructure and privacy (1)

slyguy420 (193568) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024362)

In order for a papered money system with electronic tracking to be effective you are going to have to upgrade every cash register and connect them all to sum kind of super secure network. which would be fine except for the fact that I am sure that crackers/n00bsstick script kiddies would be all over that.

at first I am sure the guberment will just track the money with their own methods, and airports scanners that tell exactly how much money you are carrying will be common.

At the same time you have to think about privacy, do I want anyone else to know where I spend my money? absolutely not. where I spend my money is my business. not the guberments.

Will this revive bartering? (5, Interesting)

jcknox (456591) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024370)

Remember back in 1999 when people were talking about how the Y2K bug would result in society reverting to bartering & precious metals currency?

I wonder if eliminating cash as a nontraceable currency will prompt the emergence of additional non-fiat currency preferred by the privacy-conscious.

I can hear it now: "That non-DRM PC will cost you $3000 credit, $2900 cash, $600 in gold, or 10 cartons of banned cigarettes."

pricey (1)

Brian Boitano (514508) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024378)

won't that make them a bit more... err... expensive?

How sturdy are these little things? (1)

prisoner-of-enigma (535770) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024380)

I'd love to know just how sturdy these little RFID chips are. I mean, suppose you didn't want your euro's tracked? How hard would it be to disable these things?

For example, what if you put your cash in a microwave for thirty seconds? Or built a HERF gun to "sterilize" your cash? These things are microchips, so they should be vulnerable to the same types of electromagnetic damage that most semiconductors are.

Easy fix (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6024397)

Microwave all your cash. That should fry the little buggers.

One whacko conspiracy theory is (1)

TerryAtWork (598364) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024398)

that the anti counterfeiting strip in US money is a chip that lets govt. vans cruse your neighborhood and scan your house for 'illicit' funds.

Looks like it's not so whacko anymore....

Black Market (4, Interesting)

Schezar (249629) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024405)

This is a good thing... for the US!

Before the Euro, the international black market dealt mostly in American currency. Part of the reason for that is the fact that it behooves the US economy's controllers to have large amounts of it's currency base outside of the country. (Think about it. Print more money, buy 'things' with it, make sure monies paid leave country. Monies are not local to the economy, so inflation does not increase. Oversimplified, yes, but I'm making a general point here.)

The Euro was a threat to that black market monopoly. A strong Euro would be serious competition, and would likely drive at least some of the US's expatriated currency back within its own borders, wreaking havoc with the economy.

With the advent of tracking capabilities in the currency itself, the Euro is keeping itself out of the black market, which is good for the United States.

Europe had a chance to take a bite out of US hegemony. So much for that ^_^

just imagine (1)

Slyder (30950) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024406)

...the fun you could have if you were the guy w/ the HERF gun :)

This can have some good uses. (1)

Feztaa (633745) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024408)

It sounds like it would make a damn good anti counterfeiting measure, at the very least.

Currency (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6024415)

I thought this was kind of interesting, maybe someone here will, too. one-third (approx) of the Euro along with many other foreign currencies are made by the same US company that produces the entirety of US paper money - Crane's [crane.com] . They have a little bit of info about the company history and some about currency [crane.com] . Worth checking out if only for the links.

Oh.. they have a few penguin notecards I use for correspondence! No BSD devil yet, tho :)

Defect RFID == Worthless note? (1)

stiller (451878) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024432)

So suppose my banknotes have defect RFIDs. How will the authorities react to this? Will the notes be declared worthless? (Stay clear of strong radio signals!) Or would be simply be taken out of the system after they reach a bank? In the latter case, the whole idea is pretty pointless - as someone pointed out before - since thugs would simply nuke them or take the RFIDs out. This concept might have a chance to succeed when the notes will be registered at every counter and ATM in the world!

Where is the anti-American brigade now? (1, Insightful)

alexhmit01 (104757) | more than 11 years ago | (#6024440)

Come on, where are all the European users talking about America being facist now? I want to hear about how the EU values privacy and the US is run by a nazi-like regime...

Come on guys, let's be consistent.

Alex
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