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Java Technology Demo Showcases Quake

simoniker posted more than 11 years ago | from the earth-shaking-or-cereally-boring? dept.

First Person Shooters (Games) 48

solarisguy writes "I saw earlier today on JavaGaming.org that Reality Interactive released a non-playable demo of Quake in Windows or Linux flavors, implemented entirely in Java. It runs natively on Linux, 1280x1024 at 60fps on my box with around 65% cpu. Could this be the future of games on Linux?" This ties in neatly to our recent posting on Sun promoting Java for higher-end games development.

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shows that... (0, Offtopic)

angryLNX (679691) | more than 11 years ago | (#6157003)

torrents can be used for files less than 100mb in size :) i was getting a very quick download speed, i'm guessing many people are leaving theirs open even after the download.

Re:shows that... (1)

kupo zero (581452) | more than 11 years ago | (#6157017)

However, that is not usually the case. Most people just close bit torrent when their download finishes, selfish people ;)

The Future of Games on Linux? (1, Flamebait)

Zico (14255) | more than 11 years ago | (#6157007)

Seven year-old games that you can watch but not even play? If that's the future, thanks but no thanks.

Re:The Future of Games on Linux? (1)

NanoGator (522640) | more than 11 years ago | (#6157461)

"Seven year-old games that you can watch but not even play? If that's the future, thanks but no thanks."

He's right. We'd be doing cartwheels if they'd ported Duke Nukem to it.

How was that high frame rate achieved? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6157081)

Were you facing the wall at the time ;)

Java - ther biggest frames per second killer next to buying one of those crippled nvidia cards

Re:How was that high frame rate achieved? (1)

Goldberg's Pants (139800) | more than 11 years ago | (#6168685)

I notice a lack of specs mentioned... The poster gives the stats on his system, but neglects to tell us what it's running. The runs at that speed on probably a P400 with a low end graphics card (Voodoo 2 or 3 say), so, given todays systems, this isn't exactly something to wet your pants over now is it.

Let's seem them port Quake 3 and have it playable at that resolution and framerate, then I'll be impressed.

Quake is GPL. Where is the source? (4, Interesting)

molo (94384) | more than 11 years ago | (#6157112)

The Quake engine is GPLed. I imagine they ported it to Java for this 'technology demo' .. So what I want to know is, where is the source?

-molo

Re:Quake is GPL. Where is the source? (2, Interesting)

sydlexic (563791) | more than 11 years ago | (#6157143)

Does the GPL cover this scenario? A port to a different platform is one thing, but a "translation" to another language is quite another. It's unlikely that it shares any actual source. The algorithms and method/functions are likely very similar, but that's not a GPL issue. In fact, it's the open source people who most frequently argue that algorithms shouldn't be encumbered by patents/licenses.

Re:Quake is GPL. Where is the source? (2)

molo (94384) | more than 11 years ago | (#6157199)

Copyright law should cover this. The Java port is a derived work.

-molo

Re:Quake is GPL. Where is the source? (1)

jrstewart (46866) | more than 11 years ago | (#6157269)

It's quite possible that Sun negotiated a separate license from Id, in which case the GPL wouldn't apply.

Re:Quake is GPL. Where is the source? (1)

Jerf (17166) | more than 11 years ago | (#6157877)

Along with jrstewart's alternate licensing scenario, it is also possible the company simply used published documents on the format of the data files to produce a renderer all by themselves, which would produce an engine they would own fully.

In which case it's only "fair" for them to own the final product, since that would be a lot of work.

Re:Quake is GPL. Where is the source? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6157383)

When it says 'unplayable demo', is it a demo running on the game engine or effectively just a video? It might be that no real game code is being distributed. (AC who can't be arsed downloading it.)

Re:Quake is GPL. Where is the source? (1)

bobbozzo (622815) | more than 11 years ago | (#6157422)

I agree that source should be released, but there are several good Java decompilers [google.com] , and, unlike decompilers for other languages, they produce very readable output, often with the original variable names, etc.

Re:Quake is GPL. Where is the source? (4, Informative)

Rakefighter (147924) | more than 11 years ago | (#6158781)

And I quote from the FAQ:

3. Isn't Quakeâ GPL? Where's the source?

The technology preview is a Quakeâ compatible system that reads the Quakeâ network protocol and file formats. This is a from-scratch implementation using the Javaâ language and the Reality Interactive Simulation Containerâ. The purpose of the demo is not to demonstrate Quakeâ, but the capabilities of the Simulation Containerâ.


RTFA, smartypants.

Re:Quake is GPL. Where is the source? (1)

molo (94384) | more than 11 years ago | (#6161347)

FYI, question #3 and question #4 are new. There used to be only 10 questions in the faq when this story was posted.

-molo

Re:Quake is GPL. Where is the source? (1)

rgrzywinski (680398) | more than 11 years ago | (#6165336)

We are trying to keep up with the questions that we are getting by adding FAQ elements as they come up.

Its non-trivial to formulate a FAQ a priori so bear with us.

torrents (0, Offtopic)

angryLNX (679691) | more than 11 years ago | (#6157127)

would have been nice if they had also provided torrents of the game itself (which you have to extract some level file or something from)

Big Deal... (2, Informative)

stoborrobots (577882) | more than 11 years ago | (#6157293)

This was done long ago...

Remember this??? [passagen.se]

This demo is offline these days, but the info is all still up there.

Re:Big Deal... (1)

Blasto.Net (570119) | more than 11 years ago | (#6158198)

Oh my god, I remember this... I actually had a server setup off my dial up connection years ago, and actually had some friends connect to it. I had the client hosted on my webspace. I wish I still had a copy of it.

It makes me sad knowing that game went off the deep end and disappeared...

Mirrors? (1)

molo (94384) | more than 11 years ago | (#6157411)

Can anyone setup a mirror? This is stopping and starting at a couple K a second.. and that Fileplanet thing is bogus.. you gotta become a member in order to download? Where is sunsite when you need it?

Re:Mirrors? (1)

RiverTonic (668897) | more than 11 years ago | (#6159169)

Here [realityinteractive.com] is the bittorrent-link for the windows version.

For the GNU/Linux version you need this [realityinteractive.com] link.

*Shrug* (2, Interesting)

NanoGator (522640) | more than 11 years ago | (#6157448)

"Could this be the future of games on Linux?"

Depends. Can Java talk to 3D cards? If not, then the answer is no.

If Java were to develop a cross platform version of DirectX, then the answer would be eventually yes. I'm not just talking 3D here, so spare me the "OpenGL already exists" rebuttals. That's only one piece of the puzzle. There also needs to be the equivalent of DirectSound, DirectPlay, and another Direct component that I'm having difficulty remembering of right now.

That's a really ambitious task. But, on the other hand, it'd be really hard to want to develop using DirectX if the Java equivalent does the job and requires little to no porting in order to support other platforms such as Linux or even Mac.

Re:*Shrug* (2, Informative)

FrenZon (65408) | more than 11 years ago | (#6157751)

Depends. Can Java talk to 3D cards? If not, then the answer is no.
Java3D supports hardware accelerated OpenGL and/or DirectX (the user decides by installing one of two Java3D runtimes)

Re:*Shrug* (2, Insightful)

solarisguy (59280) | more than 11 years ago | (#6157928)

If you look, it's using OpenGL and the associated 3D drivers with it. There's nothing that prevents it from using 100% of the driver optimizations and hardware acceleration that is available to OpenGL.

Re:*Shrug* (3, Informative)

Christ-on-a-bike (447560) | more than 11 years ago | (#6158072)

http://jsdl.sourceforge.net/ [sourceforge.net]

SDL does sound and event handling pretty well, with Java bindings here. Other posters have mentioned OpenGL too. As for networking like 'directplay' (I think), does any game on windows actually use it? I would have thought just programming sockets would be fairly cross-platform. I think SDL_net can help with that too.

Re:*Shrug* (1)

NanoGator (522640) | more than 11 years ago | (#6158331)

" As for networking like 'directplay' (I think)"

I was referring to Joysticks, mice, kb's, etc. I may not have gotten the right terminology for MS's product in that area, though...

Re:*Shrug* (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6159173)

I was referring to Joysticks, mice, kb's, etc. I may not have gotten the right terminology for MS's product in that area, though...

That's DirectInput [microsoft.com] .

Games That Use DirectPlay (2, Insightful)

ddilling (82850) | more than 11 years ago | (#6160116)

Ever try playing a game multiplayer with friends, and discover you can't, because it can't cope with NAT, or because despite you opening the ports the game tells you to, it seems to want more undocumented ones, or because you bought your copy for Linux and theirs is on Windows and despite being the exact same game at the same patchlevel (i.e. Loki titles), they just won't talk to each other?

If stuff just doesn't work... it's probably using DirectPlay.

Not that I'm bitter or anything. Just that stuff I know isn't using DirectPlay (id games, for example) always seems to work fine.

Re:*Shrug* (2, Funny)

Thing 1 (178996) | more than 11 years ago | (#6158487)

There also needs to be the equivalent of DirectSound, DirectPlay, and another Direct component that I'm having difficulty remembering of right now.

Maybe it's the sixth beer, but I think that other component is "Direct-suck-my-balls". I know I'd pay for it...

Re:*Shrug* (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6159753)

I like pygame [pygame.org] and pyopengl [sourceforge.net] for cross platform game programming. It for python, not java, but its really easy to pick up from their examples.

Dancing Bear (3, Insightful)

Markus Registrada (642224) | more than 11 years ago | (#6157638)

When you see a dancing bear, you don't evaluate how well it dances, you marvel that it dances at all.

I suppose next we'll be asked if scooters are the future of personal transportation, or talentless teen-age models are the future of pop music, or invading countries that have oil is the future of world commerce. (Oops!)

This is news, how? (2, Insightful)

Mensa Babe (675349) | more than 11 years ago | (#6157793)

solarisguy writes "I saw earlier today on JavaGaming.org that Reality Interactive released a non-playable demo of Quake in Windows or Linux flavors, implemented entirely in Java. (...)"

I have lots of non-playable games in Linux flavors, implemented entirely in win32 API... Of course, I am joking. This is great news. When most of games in stores start to be written in Java, I am sure many GNU users will use them (at least those, who have no moral objections to use proprietary software) and there will be finally no reason to use Windows and therefore to preinstall it by OEMs. This could be a great long term strategic success. We need more people using free software at home, especially in the age of corporations looking at such software with suspicion because of corrupted companies, like the infamous dying S.C.O. who tries to extort money never minding the implications to the society at large. I agree with most of people here.

Not as far away as you think (1)

MrBigInThePants (624986) | more than 11 years ago | (#6158427)

Several titles that have already been released or are about to be released seriously considered using Java instead of the usual C++. They all decided in the end that they would stick with what they knew for fear the performance would not be enough. (I cannot for the life of me remember the titles since this was a while ago, but I was reading developer's comments) Not as far off as you think, especially if sun has a proof of concept game like quake showing good performance.

What a big have... (1)

node159 (636992) | more than 11 years ago | (#6159230)

I'm meant to be amazed at a 7 year old game that runs significantly slower (read 7 times on my machine) than the native code that has native machine coded libraries? Who are they trying to kid?

I'm all for java and its portability (hell Iâ(TM)ve been force fed it for the last 3 years at University & work), but the promised speed increases and the dynamic optimizations with the vm seem to be a long way away (can anyone say vaporcrap).

Re:What a big have... (1)

rgrzywinski (680398) | more than 11 years ago | (#6165294)

"They" are not trying to kid anyone. As stated on the website, "we" are attempting to show that gaming with reasonable performance is possible with Java. I believe that we are doing just that.

I would be very interested for you to back up your 7x claim. What metrics are you using for the comparison especially since the preview is NOT Quake?

And let's talk about the native machine coded libraries. What's your beef? (Check out my post to "Not "Implemented entirely in Java" before you reply.)

DISCLAIMER: I am not being defensive. I am trying to root out issues that people have with Java and gaming as that is the purpose of this preview.

Anyone got this working? (1)

KieranElby (315360) | more than 11 years ago | (#6159406)

I just get "JVM terminated abnormally" when I try to run it via the launcher. If I run it directly I get:

An unexpected exception has been detected in native code outside the VM. Unexpected Signal : EXCEPTION_ACCESS_VIOLATION occurred at PC=0x0 Function=[Unknown.] Library=(N/A) NOTE: We are unable to locate the function name symbol for the error just occurred. Please refer to release documentation for possible reason and solutions. Current Java thread: at org.lwjgl.opengl.CoreGL.activeTexture(Native Method) at com.realityinteractive.quakeworld.client.texture.G LTextureEngine.selectTexture(GLTextureEngine.java: 171) at com.realityinteractive.quakeworld.client.texture.G LTextureEngine.setMultiTexture(GLTextureEngine.jav a:212)

I'm using a Matrox card on Windows 2000, so maybe that's the problem.

Re:Anyone got this working? (1)

KieranElby (315360) | more than 11 years ago | (#6161170)

Followup - turns out that that helpful error message means that my card doesn't support multi-texturing.

The biggest problem with early Quake... (1)

Dolemite_the_Wiz (618862) | more than 11 years ago | (#6159558)

...is not even mentioned. The thing that made early Quake suck was that servers could be ping flooded and the game would die.

That and Id never addressed hacking issues that ruined the game. Oh wait, this aspect about quake hasn't changed at all. Never mind.

Dolemite
_______________

Not "Implemented entirely in Java" (0)

metamatic (202216) | more than 11 years ago | (#6161450)

It may be mostly written in Java, but it's calling a buttload of native code to do the actual work. Don't believe me? Disable native methods in your VM and see how far it gets.

So let's try to keep the hype under perspective. What we really have here is a demonstration that Java is fast enough to handle the game logic, and maybe the 3D calculations, of a 3D game that isn't playable, all at a fraction of the speed of Objective-C. Oh, I'm so impressed.

Re:Not "Implemented entirely in Java" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6162173)

Hmmm....so, C++ does all of the heavy lifting. Not the hardware? Oh, that's right. Java can punch out to OGL or DirectX, just like C code. What's the difference?

Re:Not "Implemented entirely in Java" (2, Interesting)

rgrzywinski (680398) | more than 11 years ago | (#6165181)

This is a very interesting post but I'm glad that you brought up a VERY common misconception. How do you think that Java reads from files or from the network or displays to the screen? It's all JNI (i.e. native methods). There's a reason that there's about 5MB of .dll / .so files in the JRE. So take most any "100% Java" application and turn off native methods and see how far you get.

As for the playable perspective, the only difference between this implementation and a playable implemenation is that input is disabled (and not included in the .jar for obvious reasons).

As for being impressed, you should be. As recently as a few weeks ago there have been news postings on Slashdot that vehemently denies the possibility of gaming at a reasonable speed under Java. Now it seems that the argument has changed from "not possible" to "well it's still slower than native". What happened to the "not possible"? Let's get back to the "not possible" line.

Will there be a retort for everything that comes out with Java? What if I came out with something that was faster? I rue that day I tell you!

DISCLAIMER: I mean all of this light-heartedly in the spirit of open discussion.

Re:Not "Implemented entirely in Java" (1)

metamatic (202216) | more than 11 years ago | (#6167615)

There's a difference between "native methods" which are part of the Java platform, and ones which are not. Are you suggesting that this application is 100% Pure Java?

Re:Not "Implemented entirely in Java" (1)

rgrzywinski (680398) | more than 11 years ago | (#6171078)

By no means.

Though it is difficult to give weight to the whole "100% Pure Java" statement since if Sun pulled LWJGL into the core tomorrow then the application would be "100% Pure Java". Would that change the preception of the Java-ness of the application? Very murky waters these are.

Obligatory Magicosm post (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6161506)

Java3D is better than you think [magicosm.net]

Trailer video soon to come....

Would require a lot of trust in Sun (1)

encebollado (472759) | more than 11 years ago | (#6163222)

In order for gaming companies to be willing to write their top of the line games in Java, they'd have to trust Sun to keep Java on the bleeding edge of performance. Since Sun gives away Java free, I don't know if they have the resources to do that.

Maybe Sun could sell certain libraries to those companies to offset the cost?

Re:Would require a lot of trust in Sun (1)

rgrzywinski (680398) | more than 11 years ago | (#6165225)

It's great that you bring this up. There ARE other vendors with JVM's. For exmaple, IBM. IBM's JVM 1.3.X is considerably (~30%) faster than the Sun JVM.

As for Sun and Java (and I mean to start no flame wars here), it seems that IBM is doing just as much, or even more for the community (with Jikes and Eclipse for just a start) than Sun is.

IBM -- where's the 1.4.2 for Windows!!!!!

java?!? 60fps?!? (1)

KaizerWill (240074) | more than 11 years ago | (#6166916)

ive never seen a simple gui app written in java that could run 60fps on any machine!

somehow i have my doubts...
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