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Win4Lin 5.0 Reviewed

michael posted more than 11 years ago | from the necessity-calls dept.

Linux Business 419

uninet writes "About a month ago, NeTraverse contacted OfB Labs with an early release copy of Win4Lin 5.0, the follow-up to the already impressive Win4Lin 4.0 released in May 2002. Win4Lin, for those not familiar with it, offers near-native (or better) speed "virtualization" of a Windows box so that one can run Windows 9x (95/98/Me) inside GNU/Linux."

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Whee! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6241958)

This friendly troll brought to you by the Goatsemon Music Group Mirror http://nero-online.org/goatsemon/ [nero-online.org]

Dear rotten.com,

I am unsure if you are aware of the problems that your "Incident with the bird" picture has caused on the popular technology website slashdot (http://slashdot.org).
Many users of this site's messageboards are posting links to http://smoke.rotten.com/bird/ [rotten.com] and making text based representations of a bird on a man's penis. Frankly, while I am pro-freedom, this type of photo sickens me. Could you please move the location of the bird page on your site to keep slashdot readers from seeing things that are completeley unrelated to computers and technology? I'm not asking you to remove the content, just to relocate it.
FYI the text representation of the bird is:
*p_e_n_i_s_b_i_r_d_p_e_n_i_s_b_i_r_d_* [nero-online.org]
p______...___________________________p
e____(_..__`'-.,--,__________________e
n_____'-._'-.__`\a\\_________________n
i_________'.___.'_(|_________________i
s____________7____||_________________s
b___________/___.'_|_________________b
i__________/_.-'__,J_________________i
r_________/_________\________________r
d________||___/______;_______________d
*________||__|_______|_______________*
p________`\__\_______|__/__''\_______p
e__________'._\______/.-`____{}|_____e
n___________/\_`;_.-'_________/______n
i___________\_;(((____.--'\_/________i
s_________.(((_____.-;\______________s
b____.--'`_____,;`'.'-;\_____________b
i_taco's____.'____'._.'\\____________i
r_dick_--'_________|__\_|____________r
d__________________\_\,_/____________d
*p_e_n_i_s_b_i_r_d_p_e_n_i_s_b_i_r_d_*

with a link to the offensive site (http://smoke.rotten.com/bird/ [rotten.com] ) underneath, these "Penis Birds" are posted by Penis Bird Guy, Penis Bird MAN and several other users.
Regards, Andrew J. Tosh

This friendly troll brought to you by the Goatsemon Music Group Mirror http://nero-online.org/goatsemon/ [nero-online.org]

Help ! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6242017)

What the Hell is a "Simoniker" and why do Taco and Michael smile when they wait for their turn at him ?

Re:Whee! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6242126)

ABOUT 200 Israelis from nearby settlements blocked the road to Mitzpeh Yitzhar with cars and burning tires as paratroopers and police arrived to begin taking down buildings, according to Israeli Radio. Officials from the Peace Now group, which opposes settlements, says there are 62 such outposts and a total of more than 100 set up since 1996. Last week Israel removed 10 uninhabited outposts. Settler leaders sued to prevent inhabited outposts from being targeted and threatened to build more. Settlers said Thursday there had been minor confrontations at the outpost as troops arrived. âoeWe are blocking the entrance to the community and there has been some confrontation, some light pushing,â a settler who identified himself as Yossi told Army Radio. SUICIDE ATTACK KILLS STORE OWNER Advertisement Earlier on Thursday, a bomber carrying a bag filled with explosives entered a grocery store in the Israeli village of Sde Trumot near the West Bank, police said.

oOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoO TROLLS UNITE oOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoO

-PENIS--PENIS--PENIS--PENIS- [fuckyourmother.com]
P________________8',-',";,.P
E_______________#'',-',";,.E
N______________8(',-',";,..N
I_____________#(',-',";,.,.I
S__________#8#8_',-',";,.,.S
-_________#',-.8',-',";,.,.-
P________8~',-..#',-',";,..P
E_______#'',-',";8_',-',";.E
N_____8=',-',";.+#+',-',";.N
I____#=',-',";,._8',-',";,.I
S___#=',-',";,..(#',-',";.8S
-__8(',-',YOUR,.(8',-',";s#-
P_8(',-',MOTHER";#',-',-s8_P
E_#z',-',LOVES,";8',-..s#__E
N_8_.,#',"YOU',";~#,..88___N
I_#.##',-DEARLY,";~8,8#____I
S_8##',-+~'',-',-~#'8______S
-_#.,..-',-',";.'=8#_______-
P_.8+_',-',";,.'88_________P
E___888',-',";~8___________E
N______8#888#88____________N
I__________________________I
S____.oO TrollKore Oo._____S
-_At the head of the game._-
P__________________________P
E___irc.freedomirc.net_____E
N_______#trollkore_________N
I__________________________I
S__________________________S
-PENIS--PENIS--PENIS--PENIS-

ABOUT 200 Israelis from nearby settlements blocked the road to Mitzpeh Yitzhar with cars and burning tires as paratroopers and police arrived to begin taking down buildings, according to Israeli Radio. Officials from the Peace Now group, which opposes settlements, says there are 62 such outposts and a total of more than 100 set up since 1996. Last week Israel removed 10 uninhabited outposts. Settler leaders sued to prevent inhabited outposts from being targeted and threatened to build more. Settlers said Thursday there had been minor confrontations at the outpost as troops arrived. âoeWe are blocking the entrance to the community and there has been some confrontation, some light pushing,â a settler who identified himself as Yossi told Army Radio. SUICIDE ATTACK KILLS STORE OWNER Advertisement Earlier on Thursday, a bomber carrying a bag filled with explosives entered a grocery store in the Israeli village of Sde Trumot near the West Bank, police said. The attacker had likely planned to target a bus or a nearby bus stop, and entered the store to wait until the bus stop got more crowded or a bus came, police spokesman Yaron Zamir said. The store owner, Avner Mordechai, 63, realized the man was a bomber and approached him when the attacker detonated the explosives, killing Mordechai, Zamir said. âoeWe have no doubt that the store owner paid with his life to save others,â Zamir said. Sde Trumot, a small farming village in the Jordan River valley, is about three miles south of the city of Beit Shean and about the same distance from the northern edge of the West Bank. U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell, who will travel to Israel and the Palestinian territories on Friday, condemned the attack saying, âoesuch acts of terrorism are committed by people who donâ(TM)t want to see two sides living side by side in peace.â Powell added that the militants âoewant to destroy the hopes and dreams of the Palestinian people.â He was expected to meet Jordanian foreign ministry officials Thursday night after arriving in Amman, Jordan from Bangladesh. Analysis: A Hamas divided? PALESTINIAN PREMIER URGES TRUCE Thursdayâ(TM)s suicide attack came after a day of meetings in which Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas â" trying to convince militants to stop such bombingsâ" proposed a joint political leadership including the militant Hamas and Islamic Jihad, said Hamas official Abu Shanab said. In the talks, Hamas insisted on its right to target Israeli soldiers and settlers in the West Bank, said Shanab. But he also said the groupâ(TM)s leaders did not rule out the possibility of stopping the attacks. âoeWe are examining the idea,â said Abu Shanab. Islamic Jihad leaders, however, rejected Abbasâ(TM) call for a halt to attacks against all Israelis, said Islamic Jihad leader Abdulla Shami. Israelâ(TM)s part of the emerging deal would be a commitment to stop targeted killings of suspected militants, participants said, adding that Israel has not given such assurances.

Re:Whee! (-1)

(TK)Dessimat0r (668222) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242191)

The TrollKore penis must be posted with and tags around it, to convert it to fixed point text.

Thank you.

Re:Whee! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6242211)

Sorry, <TT> and </TT> tags.

Re:Whee! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6242235)

YHBT.

YHL.

HAND.

I fail to understand (-1, Flamebait)

Keri Immos (681622) | more than 11 years ago | (#6241962)

Somehow the group attitude here is that it's wrong for SCO to take licensed Linux code and use it in their own products, since it's protected under the GPL. Well, the way Windows works and it's GUI is protected under U.S. copyright law, yet you think it's unreasonable for people to criticize these coders who blatantly copy Windows. Anyone here can explain this phenomena to me?

Re:I fail to understand (1)

goldspider (445116) | more than 11 years ago | (#6241996)

It's simple.

Creating a similar look-and-feel to the original, and using the actual code from the original are two very different things.

Wrong! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6242043)

If this open source shit can run the same stuff as windows, in the judges eyes it is ruining a copyrighted product.

Thanks for playing, dickcheese!

Re:I fail to understand (0)

Slashdolt (166321) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242001)

"I fail to understand"
Yes, you do. And you fail miserably.

This is not about copying Windows, it's simply about running Windows.

--
Slashdolt

Re:I fail to understand (1)

sepluv (641107) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242019)

I know do not feed the trolls but... GUI's cannot be copyrighted (only code).

(Incidentally, there is not really anything orignal in the MSW GUI - it is nearly all copied from elsewhere (e.g.: Apple).)

(I was going to mod this a troll but was not sure if it was, so replied instead).

Seems to be a legitimate question to me... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6242023)

why is it modded down?

Re:Seems to be a legitimate question to me... (1)

Slashdolt (166321) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242232)

It's modded down because the question doesn't make sense.

It's like saying, "If it's illegal to steal gum from the candy store, then why is that guy chewing gum???"

Win4Lin will run Windows (98 it sounds like) under Linux. It runs Windows. It runs the Windows that Microsoft created, and that you already paid for (ideally). It does not emulate Windows other than a few things like passing of the clipboard, but even so, they're not using any Microsoft code, they are simply interfacing with Windows.

Again. In short. It runs Windows (TM) under Linux. They did not rewrite Windows, even though that would be nice.

Re:Seems to be a legitimate question to me... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6242234)

Because it's not a legitimate question. The presumption is false, and so is the claim of copyright.

Re:I fail to understand (3, Insightful)

cheese_wallet (88279) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242024)

yet you think it's unreasonable for people to criticize these coders who blatantly copy Windows

This is a virtualization program. A bit like VMWare... you still have to obtain (ahem) a copy of windows.

Who the heck modded this down? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6242065)

Good question. Too bad you won't get it answered, except by the dolts who think it's ok to copy the look+feel+function.

Re:Who the heck modded this down? (2, Insightful)

sukottoX (601412) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242088)

I believe applications such as this do not include windows... they simply give you a virtual system where you can install and run windows on. no one is copying look feel or function, they are simply allowing you to run a licensed copy of windows on top of Linux.

Re:Who the heck modded this down? (0)

Celandine (610250) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242237)

Correct, as anyone who'd actually read the article would have noticed.

Re:Who the heck modded this down? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6242245)

Too bad you won't get it answered, except by the dolts who think it's ok to copy the look+feel+function.

Like Microsoft copied Apple, and Apple copied Xerox? Seems to me like the practice has been accepted as "ok".

Re:I fail to understand (4, Interesting)

Waffle Iron (339739) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242256)

yet you think it's unreasonable for people to criticize these coders who blatantly copy Windows

What coders who copy Windows? You do realize that to install Win4Lin, you need to already own a Win9X CD. You go through the entire Windows installation process, including loading the Windows CD and typing in a valid product ID code. An entire standard Win9X installation is created on your PC, it just happens to live in a Linux file system.

Funny that you bring up SCO. Win4Lin is based on a DOS-virtualization technology called "merge" that SCO has also used. Here [216.239.41.100] is a summary I found of its very convoluted history. (Google cache; real page is broken.)

What's it good for? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6241964)

It's good for gay webmasters [gaywebmasters.biz] .

in other news (5, Funny)

pardasaniman (585320) | more than 11 years ago | (#6241965)

Win4Lin 4.0 has been renamed to Win4Lin 5.0 Full-Speed!!!!

Re:in other news (0, Offtopic)

AntiOrganic (650691) | more than 11 years ago | (#6241983)

USB1.1 wasn't actually renamed to USB2.0. That article was poorly researched, misleading, and in some instances just plain wrong.

Read my post on that, if you're confused.

Re:in other news (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6242074)

I wonder how long before this joke gets old, and starts getting modded redundant or offtopic?

Actually... (1)

Prince_Ali (614163) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242155)

It will be modded (-1 redundant high-speed).

Why promote SCO now?? (-1, Interesting)

jkrise (535370) | more than 11 years ago | (#6241981)

Just y'day there was an article on a UK firm doing a school Linux project using Win4Lin. This product uses SCOde, and isn't suited for true Linux enthusiasts.

Less of SCO, more of GNU, GPL I say!

Re:Why promote SCO now?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6242014)

What SCOde is there?

Specifics, please.

Re:Why promote SCO now?? (1)

jkrise (535370) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242092)

Here's the NeTraverse link- I've not done HREF yet - sorry:

http://www.netraverse.com/products/wts/technolog y. php?PHPSESSID=5ed8e1d8cb2384cbb6523ec150ee5779

Re:Why promote SCO now?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6242255)

You've not done...what? Sorry? Hang on a minute, I have to dispare for humanity quietly...dispare

Now then, what was that you said? You...dispare

Look, there really isn't anything magical about an href tag. I mean, how much simplier can it be? Apart from the fact that there are thousands of Learn HTML tutorials which can teach you how to use href in about five seconds flat...dispare.

No, I give up. Humanity is a goner. We don't stand a chance.

Win4Lin Based on SCO Merge (2, Interesting)

Ryanwoodings (60314) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242094)

"The NeTraverse products are derived from a proven technology developed over the last 15 years for UNIX® based operating systems, notably SCO®'s, MergeTM technology, accounting for over 800,000 users worldwide."

Funny how the article didn't mention Win4Lin had any connection with SCO... probably because NOBODY wants to be associated with those money grubbers these days!

Why? (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6241982)

Why exactly does one need to run Windows at all? It seems Linux offers everything the average user would need.

Re:Why? (0, Troll)

xombo (628858) | more than 11 years ago | (#6241992)

Why exactly does one need to run Windows at all? It seems Linux offers everything the average user would need.
Games

Re:Why? (5, Insightful)

arth1 (260657) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242136)

Unfortunately, there's a lot of things people need Windows (or other specific operating systems) for.

There's no Linux equivalent to Microsoft Money, for example -- not something that can connect to my bank automatically and get statements and process transfers without having to import and export qif files. Same with Microsoft Streets&Trips -- there's simply no equivalent.
I can't connect a Linux box to my work's VPN either -- there's no working client.
And if I managed to do so, what would I use to connect to the Exchange server to get my emails and appointments?

Then there is, as the previous poster stated, the issue of games. Linux games are few and far between, especially 3D games.
Oh, and watching DVDs? (Legally, that is)

That said, there's similar cases where Unix-like systems can offer what Windows can't. cygwin helps, sure, but that's just like running a Windows emulator under Linux.

The real problem I see with the product is that Windows 9x isn't going to be supported for much longer, and new software more and more often require an NT5+ based OS (Windows 2000/XP/2003).
In which case Windows 9x compatibility won't help too much...

Regards,
--
*Art

Re:Why? (2, Insightful)

jetkust (596906) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242042)

Why exactly does one need to run Windows at all? It seems Linux offers everything the average user would need.

Except for Windows applications.

Re:Why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6242090)

All Windows applications will soner or later be broken and incompatible wiht the OS. No worry though Microsoft applications will work just fine, and new replicas of all applications and applications anyone else might think up will be realsed by Microsoft.

Re:Why? (1)

SirGeek (120712) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242073)

Why exactly does one need to run Windows at all? It seems Linux offers everything the average user would need.

Why ? How about corporate mandated use of Outlook and Exchange ? (Exchange 5.5 so I can't use Ximian Connector for Ximian Evolution).

And there are other reasons too, for me, its the ability to use the phone.com WML/HDML simulator for testing my WML and HDML code visually and PL/SQL Developer for (WH)Oracle .

Others probably have their resons (besides games since it doesn't support the higher versons of Direct X yet).

Re:Why? (2)

universalis (612590) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242179)

Why exactly does one need to run Windows at all? It seems Linux offers everything the average user would need. Because I'm a web designer, who has to test everything in Internet Explorer (used by 97% of the population). With a product like this, I can quickly boot up a selection of IE versions in different MS OSs whilst getting all the advantages of Linux for development.

Re:Why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6242075)

It seems Linux offers everything the average user would need

No it doesn't.

1) Games. Ghost Recon [ghostrecon.com] and Operation Flashpoint [codemasters.com] are the reason why I spend more time in Windows than in Linux these days.

2) Applications. Windows has plenty of user-friendly programs for ripping CDs, burning CDs or raytracing nature scenes or apartment interiors to name a few. All installed with few mouse clicks by an InstallShield-like packaging system.

3) Familiar GUI.

Re:Why? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6242078)

Why exactly does one need to run Windows at all? It seems Linux offers everything the average user would need.


Macromedia applications, Photoshop, and range of other tools not quite perfected on linux.

Lets admit it, Gimp fucking sucks. I don't know if it'll ever catch up to industry standard graphic editing apps, but currently it's just bad.

Re:Why? (2, Insightful)

!Squalus (258239) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242219)

Let's admit it, Gimp ****ing s***s

Hmm, not to kind to the GIMP development team and I happen to know a lot of GIMP users who disagree with that statement. It works for me and many others. Maybe you should read more, or just be happy with using your own tools, or in the alternative convince the software makers of the applications that you want them on Linux? Seems like that could get you what you want better than criticizing the GIMP team, which doesn't get you what you want.

Not a flame, just a comment.

Re:Why? (0, Redundant)

Jim_Hawkins (649847) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242139)

:: ahem ::

These newfangled games usually require Windows 98 or higher. (And games are sehr important.)

Oh yeah...I like Microsoft Office too. (Yes, I seriously do. Please keep all flames to a minimum.)

Re:Why? (2, Informative)

cerberusss (660701) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242240)

I like Microsoft Office
Try CrossOver Office [codeweavers.com] . It's somewhat cheaper and runs the Office apps as plain normal apps instead of an application (office) in an application (the VM itself). OTOH it's more limited than a whole VM.

Excellent (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6241987)

Excellent!

I'm already looking forward to P2P'ing this...

No 3D? (5, Interesting)

Erwos (553607) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242005)

I'm willing to pay for one of these windows-emulation packages when they finally get some 3D going, which is why I _really_ want Windows at this point. What's stopping them from doing this?

-Erwos

Check out transgaming - was "No 3D?" (4, Informative)

martinde (137088) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242084)

Check out Transgaming [transgaming.com] . They support a variety of DirectX games, including some 3d games iirc. They do this through extending wine to support DirectX. What I don't know is if they feed changes back into the mainline Wine. I do know that CodeWeavers [codeweavers.com] do, but they don't support DirectX...

On the other hand, the age old question is that if Windows emulation works SO well on Linux, then will there ever be a commercial market for native Linux apps? I'd rather see native ports of these various apps/games, and I hope emulation is simply a stopgap...

Re:No 3D? (4, Informative)

plcurechax (247883) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242106)

get some 3D going, which is why I _really_ want Windows at this point. What's stopping them from doing this?

Direct access to the hardware via highly optimized video drivers and specific graphics libraries are very hard to virtualize with a level of performance that matches the "native" Windows running directly on the hardware.

First we have the simple fact that by running via the Win4Lnx you have an additional layer that does messages parsing and translation (from various Windows API including DirectX graphics API) to a native Xfree86/Linux function call, which has to then go through a network aware display system, and gets painted on your display using a video card driver not written in-house by the card manufactor, but a 3rd-party free software developer, who likely had less than full, to possibly no vendor documentation about the card and how to make full and optimized use of its capabilities.

So I doubt you will ever see a solution that provides full performance supporting the at the time current gaming graphics capabilities supported via a virtualizer (creates an additional virtual machine using special CPU instructions rather than emulator that emulates everything in software) because they are always playing catch up, and they add unavoidable additional layers of translation that negatively impact on execution speed compared to native running OS.

The ph34rb33r webcomic is lame and must be trolled (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6242008)

oOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoO TROLLS UNITE oOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoO

We must rape the forums [ph34rb33r.com] on the ph34rb33r website [ph34rb33r.com] , in order to deride them, and insult their lame excuse for a 'webcomic'. There are minimal forum rules in place to stop trolls over there, such as a 20 second delay until another post can be done. Obviously, this allows you to refresh the page once the 20 seconds is up, and then resend the data, so that it will be reposted. The forum in question also has image posting capabilities, allowing you to use the explicit material contained upon rotten.com [rotten.com] and goatse.cx [goatse.cx] . In addition to all this lack of troll-protection, the forum actually allows anonymous postings! Members of TrollKore have already trolled their forums multiple times, with crapfloods and the posting of sexual imagery. The posts were deleted after around an hour, but I believe that we have put a small dint in their weak ego. Ah, did I say 'their'? I meant 'his', since he is the only one that runs the webcomic, and has no friends.

A sample of the offending content is here [ph34rb33r.com] . Please note how the webcomic is fucking lame and unfunny, and its very existence needing to be eradicated from the Internet. Also note how the comic looks as if it was drawn by a small child (and probably was). THE INTERNET IS NO PLACE FOR A SMALL CHILD, LET ME TELL YOU, GOOD SIR! At present, this is more important than meer Slashdot, fellow trolls. You now troll for FREEDOM, FREEDOM FROM AN INTERNET WITHOUT LAMENESS FROM SUCH TWATS.

I ask you this... if the forum could be down by tomorrow, isn't that worth trolling for? ISN'T THAT WORTH CRAPFLOODING FOR?!?

I plead to you, fellow troll, this fucking LOSER has to be revealed for the motherfucker he really is.

Thank you.
TrollKore out.

oOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoO TROLLS UNITE oOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoO

-PENIS--PENIS--PENIS--PENIS-
P________________8',-',";,.P
E_______________#'',-',";,.E
N______________8(',-',";,..N
I_____________#(',-',";,.,.I
S__________#8#8_',-',";,.,.S
-_________#',-.8',-',";,.,.-
P________8~',-..#',-',";,..P
E_______#'',-',";8_',-',";.E
N_____8=',-',";.+#+',-',";.N
I____#=',-',";,._8',-',";,.I
S___#=',-',";,..(#',-',";.8S
-__8(',-',YOUR,.(8',-',";s#-
P_8(',-',MOTHER";#',-',-s8_P
E_#z',-',LOVES,";8',-..s#__E
N_8_.,#',"YOU',";~#,..88___N
I_#.##',-DEARLY,";~8,8#____I
S_8##',-+~'',-',-~#'8______S
-_#.,..-',-',";.'=8#_______-
P_.8+_',-',";,.'88_________P
E___888',-',";~8___________E
N______8#888#88____________N
I__________________________I
S____.oO TrollKore Oo._____S
-_At the head of the game._-
P__________________________P
E___irc.freedomirc.net_____E
N_______#trollkore_________N
I__________________________I
S__________________________S
-PENIS--PENIS--PENIS--PENIS-

Toughest? (3, Interesting)

rwiedower (572254) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242010)

one of the toughest challenges a piece of software ever faces, the upgrade installation mode

I can think of several stress filled things a program may have to do. I'm not sure the upgrade installation mode ranks as the "toughest". Maybe it's difficult to get perfect...

Can I with sample with no strings? (0, Insightful)

Rudeboy777 (214749) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242016)

I didn't have the patience to create an account at win4lin.com - is there a free downloadable version available?

How is it pronounced? (1, Funny)

jeepliberty (624159) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242025)

About a month ago, NeTraverse contacted OfB Labs with an....

NeTraverse...How is it pronounced?
Net reverse? or
Knee traverse?

Re:How is it pronounced? (1)

deaddrunk (443038) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242081)

Of such things are flame wars born.......

This is great news! (0, Troll)

Mensa Babe (675349) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242026)

But the question is, if things like Win4Lin, Wine. Lindows and VMware, are not the very reasons, for which the game producers don't release their games with native GNU/Linux binaries? After all, why would they care to do so, if they assume, that GNU users can run Windows games... This is a serious matter, I wonder what people more familiar with the "gaming industry" think about it. Have anyone done any serious research about this subject?

Re:This is great news! (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6242080)

Win4Lin and VMware don't have 3d support - so most games are out. Lindows is just a linux distribution. Wine runs a few windows games on linux - but not many, and isn't a solution for most games.

So really, right now, none of these products are reasons for the gaming industry to not support linux.

Re:This is great news! (2, Insightful)

deaddrunk (443038) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242105)

Since you can't run the newest games on any of those, it's not really an issue. Native ports won't happen until there's enough of a market and there won't be enough of a market until there's enough users and there won't be enough users until there's enough apps and so on in an endless loop.

The above-mentioned apps are to break this unfortunate cycle and get people on to Linux, which must be a good thing.

Re:This is great news! (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6242119)

Oh, shut, up. No one cares if you're a member of mensa. really. Many people here can qualify, but choose not to because most mensa wankers are pretensious snobs who equate IQ with value to society. In reality, most of the mensoids I've met are irksome, ill-adjusted freaks.

Re:This is great news! (1)

sepluv (641107) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242141)

Quite a few games have been ported.

I doubt emulators are the reason game manufacturers are not producing for GNU (though it is an interesting idea and could be true in the future when GNU becomes more popular and/or these emulators work better).

I do not know anything about the games industry (I do not even play games much), but I would guess the reasons for this are the same reasons why commercial products are not been created in general (it is cheaper just producing for the most popular, Microsoft tools are used for development, M$ wants them too (and all that entails), &c).

Off-topic: From your profile:

I hate sexiest men
Hmmm...was that supposed to make sense (anyway..eye of the beholder and all)?

Re:This is great news! (0, Offtopic)

croddy (659025) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242215)

alright, I'll bite. what's your ESL score?

The question is (5, Insightful)

slimak (593319) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242027)

why would I want to run the any of the 9x-based Windows? 95 is pretty aweful (compared to what is available now); both 98 and Me have a pretty bloated feel. Unfortunately, the article does not seem to mention any of the new Windows, XP and 2K, which are arguably the best and therefore most desireable. Does anyone know if 2000/XP can be run?

Re:The question is (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6242197)

win 98 is the only one which will run the free protools.

Re:The answer is SCO (2, Informative)

jkrise (535370) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242213)

For some strange reason, Win4Lin gets mentioned several times at Slashdot. This uses SCO technology for the past 15 years. Here's a link:

http://www.netraverse.com/products/wts/technolog y. php?PHPSESSID=5ed8e1d8cb2384cbb6523ec150ee5779

Seeing MS is licensing SCOde, XP shouldn't be a problem - for now.

Re:The question is (1)

wfrp01 (82831) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242218)

Legacy applications. There's still some crufty, yet well-worn and oft-used stuff out there that runs best on older OS's.

Re:The question is (4, Informative)

mfarver (43681) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242220)

No.. supporting the "ring 0" windows versions is a much larger emulation task. WinNT/2k, and XP do not tolerate not having full control of the processor. VMWare can do this, becuase it emulates the hardware. Win4lin "shares" the hardware between Linux and windows (windows never has full control of the proc).

Rumor has it that netraverse is working hard on a Win2k version of Win4lin. Hopefully they will be able to produce a solution that is not as bloated as VMWare.

Re:The question is (1)

brucmack (572780) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242223)

Well, personally, I still keep 98 so I can run some of my old games that XP doesn't support. For doing this purpose only, 98 is still on my machine. I know people that dual boot 98 with linux for this purpose as well, so this would be a great fit for them.

Other way around (4, Insightful)

DigiShaman (671371) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242038)

How about running Linux on Windows? Then maybe people would be more inclined to test the waters of the Linux world. Think of it as a way to migrate users off of the M$ titty.

Re:Other way around (2, Informative)

cioxx (456323) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242149)

How about running Linux on Windows? Then maybe people would be more inclined to test the waters of the Linux world. Think of it as a way to migrate users off of the M$ titty.

Virtual PC [connectix.com]

Re:Other way around (4, Informative)

discogravy (455376) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242174)

oh, you mean cygwin [cygwin.com] . or maybe knoppix [knoppix.org]

Re:Other way around (1)

REBloomfield (550182) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242231)

WinLinux 2000, it's pretty appalling, but hey...

I don't get it. (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6242048)

What's wrong with Wine [winehq.com] ?

Re:I don't get it. (2, Interesting)

tzanger (1575) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242258)

Oh I don't know... better app support? The ability to access the printer port from win32 apps (Microchip MPLAB comes immediately to mind, doesn't work at all under WINE if you want ot use the expensive ICE you bought), Acrobat 5 or 6, IE for VoloView (AutoCAD drawing viewer)... Lots of little things.

WINE seems to be a very useful "meta project" -- take the bits of WINE you need to get the specific windows functionality you need, but you'll never get 100% of it. I'm not sure why.

Speed? (3, Funny)

WIAKywbfatw (307557) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242050)

...offers near-native (or better) speed "virtualization" of a Windows box...

Surely you're not suggesting that some tree-loving hippies can generate faster code than the world's biggest software maker? Quick, subsidise Microsoft so that it can compete more fairly! Better still, pass a law to make open source illegal!

Re:Speed? (4, Informative)

davecb (6526) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242147)

Actually I got significantly better performance running Linux -> w4l 4.0 -> Win 95 -> MS Project on the same hardware that I previously ran just Win 95 and MS project on.

Seems like having actual memory management code and a file system was sufficient to speed up a P133 from 'unacceptably slow" to "pretty quick".

--dave

virtualization (1)

twoslice (457793) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242175)

...offers near-native (or better) speed "virtualization" of a Windows box..

Alas, even linux can't really speed up Micro$soft software - it must alter reality and virtualize it for us...

Re:Speed? (1, Funny)

deego (587575) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242208)

> some tree-loving hippies

You forgot the "terrorists" label :). And don't forget that these terrorists stole the code from a respected SCOmpany. We should really start being tough on terrorists, subsidize Microsoft and SCO, impose tarrifs on "imported software" and pay tarrifs to Microsoft. It's about fairness. Otherwise, the terrorist win.

How does it compare to vmware? (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6242054)

I've only used Windows in VMware [vmware.com] in linux - which works well, but takes a while to boot up (and there's still no 3d support). How does Win4Lin compare to vmware for this... anyone?

Re:How does it compare to vmware? (4, Informative)

alienw (585907) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242114)

It kills VMWare speed-wise. Boots up in about 15s on my old P-3 800MHz box.

Re:How does it compare to vmware? (4, Informative)

!Squalus (258239) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242154)

Well, when I used Win4Lin (up to 3.0) it was fairly fast and efficient. The one concern was that it modified the kernel and that it was necessary to run this through a modified kernel in order to have access to your Win4Lin sessioms.

It performs well. I used it to have access to GUI tools on my Linux box then so that I could administer a DB on the Linux box through Samba (same PC w/GUI interface then on Windows). Windows acted like a different host on the machine and it worked flawlessly for me but, as always, YMMV.

It's a lot faster than VMWare, but only supports 98 and ME, whereas VMWare supports all of that and 2000, XP Professional.

For those who want that sort of thing, it can also fool your users into thinking they are running Windows through their terminal server sort of applications. No games - No 3D - No DistractiveX though. If you want that, you should dual-boot or better yet - buy Linux games and stop buying Win based stuff. ;)

Of course, games are what Windows was made for anyway - it doesn't really have the security needed to be taken as a serious business platform by anyone who really has to support their stuff. They would much rather have something stable and reliable that doesn't fall over quite so easily.

Just an honest opinion and my two centavos.

Any comparisons?? (1)

dan dan the dna man (461768) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242061)

We use VMware for legacy stuff - any hints as to how the two compare? If it's easier to install/deploy then I might migrate..

More info in the release notes... (4, Informative)

pen (7191) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242064)

Win4Lin 5.0 Release Notes [netraverse.com]

It looks like one of the most important new features is Winsock 2 support.

Re:More info in the release notes... (1)

!Squalus (258239) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242077)

I thought Winsock 2 was available in Win4Lin 3.0?

They called it vnet then - I could be wrong though.

Re:More info in the release notes... (2, Informative)

pen (7191) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242176)

WinSock 2 support
Previous versions of Win4Lin only supported WinSock 1.1 (when the WinSock network option was selected.) Win4Lin 5.0 supports WinSock 2, allowing more network-enabled applications (such as Windows MediaPlayer) to function without the need for VNET.
VNET a kind of compatibility layer, but not actual WinSock 2 support. The neat thing about VNET was that it allowed you to assign a unique IP address to your Win4Lin session (differing from the IP address of the Linux box you were running it on.)

weird (2, Interesting)

Boromir son of Faram (645464) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242082)

It's crazy how much time people put into making Windows emulators for GNU/Linux. I mean, if you want to use Windows applications, just install the Windows that came free with your computer. For the cost of Win4Lin or Wine, you can get a whole nother hard drive to dedicate to Windows, and it will be fully compatible.

On a related note, how come there are no Linux emulators for Windows? Is it because Windows has better alternatives to any Linux program, or is there some sort of GPL patent issue?

Re:weird (2, Insightful)

rkz (667993) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242104)

cygwin...! I use it everyday!

Re:weird (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6242135)

VMware at least boots up a virtual machine (like another PC within your PC) that runs the OS. VMware runs on windows and linux and can boot many varieties of DOS, windows, linux and *BSD on either OS.

As far as running linux apps on windows without a VM... many linux apps are cross platform and can be run on windows with a recompilation, since tools like Cygnus have a version of gcc and the headers etc for windows. There's many examples - gaim, the gimp, etc etc. This doesn't work the other way as most windows apps are binary-only, and we don't have the source code in order to port/recompile them on linux.

There was even an effort a while back to allow linux binaries to run on windows by emulating the linux system calls (kinda like the opposite of wine). I don't think there's much point to this really though as most apps can just be recompiled as the source is available.

Linux Emulators (4, Funny)

ShieldW0lf (601553) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242150)

On a related note, how come there are no Linux emulators for Windows? Is it because Windows has better alternatives to any Linux program, or is there some sort of GPL patent issue?

You can run linux in vmware in windows in vmware in linux in vmware in windows in vmware in linux in vmware in windows in vmware in linux in vmware in windows in vmware in linux in vmware in windows in vmware in linux in vmware in windows in vmware in linux in vmware in windows in vmware in linux.

And from what I understand, you can do this in windows too.

Re:weird (1)

beef3k (551086) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242151)

What makes you think Windows comes _free_ with your computer? You pay for it like anyone else. Buying a computer with no operating system or building it yourself is cheaper.

What's the point in a Linux emulator for windows when linux is _free_ and can easily be installed on another partition?

Anyway, these issues are completely besides the point. Win4Lin, VMWare etc. are for people that wish to _migrate_ from a Windows to a Linux platform, i.e. they would like to run Linux without the need to dualboot just to use those few (still) needed Windows apps. If you want a Linux emulator for Windows it's because you would want to migrate from Linux to Windows (however unlikely). There's no point however, Linux and it's apps has the source code available so they can just be recompiled for the Windows platform - not so the other way around. This has resulted in nice things like Cygwin etc. (there's even windows KDE ports if you'd like to replace your desktop...)

Free with your computer? (1)

Slashdolt (166321) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242156)

Unless you obtained an illegal copy of Windows, most of us actually have to pay for it. Last I knew, Windows wasn't free.

Yes, this is sarcasm.

Re:weird (1)

negacao (522115) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242157)

Not GPL patent issue, and not because Windows has better alternatives.

(If I were in a worse mood, I'll call your post a troll.)

It's simply because: *gasp* no one cares. Those who want to run Linux do. Those who are forced to use windows (e.g. at work, like me) install cygwin [http://www.cygwin.com/] along with other tools. :)

Re:weird (1)

davecb (6526) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242165)

No, not wierd. When moving from CP/M to DOS, you always needed to have an emulator around to run that "one last app" that was only available on CP/M.

--dave

Re:weird (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6242172)

But you won't be able to run your legacy windows applications at the same time as your linux ones with your solution.

There are actually a number of alternatives for linux- and linux-like systems on windows. VMWare will allow a virtual linux box on top of WinNT (and vice-versa). Cygwin is a port of most of the GNU suite and X to WinNT.

A "linux emulator" for windows is kinda meaningless - linux is mainly posix-compliant, what you really want is a posix layer for windows. Guess what? It exists.

Re:weird (1)

cerberusss (660701) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242193)

I mean, if you want to use Windows applications, just install the Windows that came free with your computer.
Yeah, but then you'd have to reboot. I hate rebooting. And besides that, my company's laptop is too small to contain RH linux, Oracle 9iAS and a windows partition.

I bought CrossOver Office and it's $50. I think that's cheap if you are looking at buying another harddisk.

Windows is free? (1)

kevruse (44586) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242206)

Since when is windows free? Last I checked XP pro was around $180 and XP Home was $100. If you building a $1000 machine that is roughly a 10% or 20% increase to the cost of the system.

Do you mean free as in if you buy a preloaded computer from a vendor then you don't see it factored into the price?

k

Re:weird (2)

jeffasselin (566598) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242236)

I mean, if you want to use Windows applications, just install the Windows that came free with your computer.

Free? as in beer or as in speech?

On a related note, how come there are no Linux emulators for Windows?

Probably because the point in using Linux is in leaving the Windows world behind as much as possible. Using a Windows emulator in Linux is a small concession to the need to run specific software, it's only running when absolutely necessary, and you know it's not a real Windows. Running a Linux emulator in Windows would be essentially useless since you wouldn't gain what Linux gives you: stability, security, and openness. The underlying reality would still be Windows.

Oh yeah, and most emulators require a functional install of Windows anyway. So it's also about the convenience of not having to restart all the time, or having to use several computers.

Homepage + Screenshot (0, Redundant)

SonOfSengaya (582624) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242115)

Here the homepage of NeTraverse: www.netraverse.com [netraverse.com]

...and a screenshot [netraverse.com] .

Buy it out (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6242133)

Win4lin needs to be free, as it is important for people switching over to Linux. Something similar to the "free blender" campaign may be in order... I know I'd donate quite a bit to the fund.

It makes one wonder (2, Interesting)

SynapseLapse (644398) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242170)

Why Microsoft hasn't sued them out of bussiness?

Sony succesfully sued Bleem out of bussiness...
Granted you need a win98 cd to get this sucker running (Which means they have to still buy windows from Microsoft.)
but conversly, it means more people like my mother could potentially use it as they would then still be able to use their old win apps.


Now all we need is to run WinLin with a Unix emulator running a Mac Emulator running...

requires a kernel patch (1, Insightful)

pomakis (323200) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242178)

"Win4Lin requires that a small Linux kernel module and patch be installed"

I stopped reading right there. No thanks. I left my kernel patching days behind me when I tossed Slackware in favour of Red Hat four years ago. I don't want to deal with that shit any more.

Current utimate test for me... (-1, Offtopic)

GoofyBoy (44399) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242181)

...used to be games and 3D stuff.

But now its syncing with my PocketPC. Does anyone know if this product can do this with PocketPC 2002?

why (2, Insightful)

minus_273 (174041) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242183)

an i say this in all seriousness.. why? why do you need this? seriously if you are going to use windows apps in emulation mode, either install windows or go for the better althernative OSX.
I switched to osx from linux 2 weeks ago, and it is wonderfult o be abel to use my linux apps under X11 while running word, ie and a bunch of commercial games. OSX is the best thing to use if you want unix and commercial app and game support.
Why emualate a third class OS when you have option of using it natively under *nix?

Outdated (2, Insightful)

beef3k (551086) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242200)

This 5.0 release seem pretty pointless to me. Win95/98/Me has never been in use in any sane production environment. Either people are still using NT or they've moved on to 2000/XP a long time ago.

If this should have been useful it would have had to emulate 2000/XP as well. IMHO this is near pointless software.

Not outdated - simply practical... (2, Interesting)

aksansai (56788) | more than 11 years ago | (#6242257)

Production environments moved to Windows 2000+ years ago because of operating stability issues encountered when running Windows 9x based systems. Nevermind the inherent security issues that plagued the operating system when the user is assumed to be the administrator of the machine.

Production environments that have selected Linux as their "host" operating system have already made a good choice in selecting a stable, secure operating system. Allowing their users to still be able to use "modern" Windows software (for various reasons) is priceless.

I used to work for a company which deployed Linux throughout. However, various assignments for software development required the use of Visual Studio, which runs just fine under Windows 98 - but, as you can imagine, has a difficulty running under Linux. I purchased Win4Lin 3.0 - and the flexibility (and speed), yet convenience of not having to install Windows was absolutely fantastic.
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