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285 comments

first p00p (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370680)

or maybe not.

hey there (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370802)

Ok, so I'll go out on a limb here and say you're from the United States.

So while normal people are out having a good time this fourth of july, you're getting first post on slashdot.

A winner is you, baby

Re:hey there (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370961)

I p00p on your 4th july crap... you nationalistic, rasicstic and "patriotic" wankers.

Why do you not use some nukes above your cities instead of that cheap 'made in china' firecrackers and free us from the root of all problems??? This would be a true independence day for everyone on this planet and your p00p would not waste our precious land, water and oxygen.

FP (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370683)

Frok Pok

first post (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370687)

first post :)

fp (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370689)

decapitated penguins

Great FP's.... (-1, Offtopic)

Soulfarmer (607565) | about 11 years ago | (#6370691)

Nothin' else to add... at the moment. This was great.

Let's not kid ourselves (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370694)

How well is Andover/OSDN [andover.net] , owner of Slashdot, doing? Honestly.

Re:Let's not kid ourselves (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370729)

Slashdot started going downhill right here:

http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/16/125 6226.shtml
"Scientologists Force Comment Off Slashdot"

When they removed this comment:

http://www.peghole.com/mare/fishman2/i ndex2.html

DECLARATION OF STEVEN FISHMAN

I, Steven Fishamn, declare as follows:

1. I have personal knowledge of the facts stated herein,
unless stated on information and belief, and if called upon
to testify to those facts I could and would competently
do so.

2. I am a Defendant in the case of Church of Scientology
v. Steven Fishman and Uwe W. Geertz. I am currently serving a
five year sentence for mail fraud and I am under the direct
custody of the Bureau of Prisons. I am currently housed in
Dismas House, a "half-way haouse" run by the Bureau of
Prisons, and under the direct supervision of the Community
Corrections Manager of the Southern District of Florida.
My release date from incarceratyion is June 28, 1993.

3. I am prohibited from leaving the Southern District
of Florida during my incarceration. After my period of
incarceration, I will be under the supervision of the
United States Parole Commission, from June 29, 1993 until
November 28, 1993, and I am prohibited from leaving the
Southern District of Florida. After my period of Parole,
I will be under the supervision of the United

-3- (0017)

States Probation Office, from November 29, 1993 until
November 28, 1995, and I am prohibited from leaving the
Southern District of Florida, without permission of the
United States Probation Office or as ordered by the Court.

4. Due to the period of incarceration, parole and
supervised release, it is very difficult if not impossible
for me to conduct discovery and/or prepare for trial which
is tentatively scheduled to occur in the summer of 1993.
The trial is scheduled to take place in the Central
istrict of California.

5. This very Court in this very action declared
me indigent -pursuant to a Motion to Proceed in Forma
Pauperis signed by the honorable Judge Harry L. Hupp on May
28, 1992.

6. My financial condition is still indigent. I
am employed as a receptionist and data entry clerk at the
wage of $ 5.00 per hour. My gross pay is $ 200.00 per
week, as I work a forty hour week. My net pay after
deductions is $ 164.00 per week. Out of that check I
pay $ 50.00 In subsistence payments to the Dismas House,
and I make child support payments of $ 41.00 per week to my
ex-wife, Jaime Lee Nureyev, in order to help support my two
minor children. I further make a monthly non-committed
fine payment of $ 25.00 to the Debt Collection Unit of the

4 (0018)

Northern District of California and I contribute $ 20.00
per week to the support of My father, Jack Fishman, who is
also destitute and has been adjudicated bankrupt by the
Southern District of Florida, and is living only on his
social security chock. I wish the Court to know that I am
indigent and destitute and besides not being able to afford
the cost of bringing witnesses to testify at trial in the
Central District of Cdlifornia I cannot afford even a
plane ticket or money for a hotel room to come out there
for the trial myself.

7. I cannot afford nor have I been able to afford to
conduct discovery in this case, nor to issue subpoenas,
hire court reporters etc., in the Central District of
California, a jurisdiction which is convenient for the
Plaintiff but not for myself as a Defendant in this case.

8. Although my ability to conduct discovery in
either jurisdiction is impossible due to my financial
circumstances I ask the Court to recognize my right to
attend My own trial as the Defendant, which would be
impossible in California unless my traveling and hotel
expenses were paid for by the Plaintiff or my co-Defendant,
and I do not wish to be a burden upon either of them. If
the case were transferred to the Southern District of
Florida under 28 U.S.C. 1404(m), I would be able to attend
my trial as the Defendant in this case since no travel or

5 (0019)

hotel expenses are involved.

9. 1 do not expect my financial situation to change
in the foreseeable future. I also still personally owe in
excess of $ 10,000 in credit card debt, some of which I
used to purchase books and tapes from bridge Publications
Inc., the publishing house of the Church of Scientology,
while I was still brainwashed and under the mind control of
the Scientology cult.

10. I have been ordered by Counselor Roxana Boyco and
Director Tammy Jodway of Dismas House, as well as Mr.
Conrad Lopez of the Bureau of Prisons to begin My required
Mental Health Aftercare at the Henderson Clinic South, a
psychiatric out-patient treatment center in Hollywood,
Florida. My treatment begins on March 9, 1993, and may
require psychotropic medication, according to Ruth Watkins
at the clinic. I may not be reemitted by my treating
psychiatrist to discontinue treatment during the period of
time required for my trial appearance in California, even
if the Court were to order the Bureau of Prisons to allow
me to appear in California, and even if any expenses were to
be Paid for by either the Plaintiff or Defendant Geertz,
which is not likely-or customary.
I will need to call Margery Wakefield as a
witness. Margery Wakefield is a Florida resident. As an

6 (0020)

ex-member of Scientology, and As a victim of abuse while a
member of the cult, she will be called upon to testify as
-to the illegal and criminal practices Of the Church of
scientology, as well as information regarding the church's
-policies on suicides, murder and the Church policy known
as "changing history". I cannot afford to bring Margery

Wakefield as a witness to California. Margery wakefield
told me that she is also indigent and destitute but has
Indicated that she would appear as a witness if the case
,were brought to trial in the Southern District of Florida.

She is a key witness in my defense.

12. Dr. Ron Johnson is a doctor of veterinary
medicine and a resident of Fort Lauderdale, Florida.
I wish to be able to call him to trial in order to testify
regarding my membership in the Church of Scientology in the
year 1981, a fact strongly disputed by the Church in their
attempt to cover up their involvement in the crimes for
which I am charged in the criminal case. I cannot afford
to bring this witness to California in order to testify.

13. Dr. Ron Neuhring is a psychologist from Miami,

Florida. He was my Fishman's treating psychologist when I
was first arrested at the Metropolitan Correctional Center,
a Federal prison facility. Dr. Neuhring will be called to
testify regarding my mental state at the time of my arrest,
as well as statements which I made to him regarding my

7 (0021)

involvement with the Church of Scientology. I cannot
afford to bring this witness to California in order to
testify.
14. Special Agent Angelo Troncoso of the Internal
Revenue Service 'is a resident of the Tampa, Florida area.
I will call him to testify to his knowledge of the criminal
investigation being conducted by the internal Revenue
Service into the Church of Scientology, and to the extent
of knowledge and details supplied to him by myself,
establishing to the Court his understanding of my
familiarity with upper-level Church management decisions
and business. I cannot afford to bring this witness to
California in order to testify.
15. Special Agent Terry R. Kroggel is a Certified
public Accountant with the Internal Revenue Service and a
resident of the St. Petersburg, Florida area. I will call
him to testify to my knowledge of the civil investigation
being conducted by the Internal Revenue Service into the
Church of Scientology, and to the extent of familiarity
with details supplied to him by myself, establishing my the
his understanding of my knowledge of upper-level Church
management decisions and business. I cannot afford to
bring this witness to California in order to testify.

16. Detective Dennis Angelo is an investigator with

8 (0022)

the Clearwater Police Department, and is a resident of the
Clearwater, Florida area. I will call him to testify to
his Knowledge of the civil investigation being conducted by
the Clearwater Police Department into the Church of
Scientology, and to the extent of familiarity with details
supplied to him by myself, establishing my knowledge of
upper-level Church management decisions and business.
I cannot afford to bring this witness to California in
order to testify.

17. Dr. Enyin Aksu is a psychiatrist who is a
resident of Broward County Florida. Dr. Aksu was
my treating physician at the time when I was, an in-patient
at the Hollywood pavilion psychiatric facility in
Hollywood, Florida, from February 13, 1989 until march 20,
1989. Dr. Aksu will be called to testify regarding my
mental state at the time of my involuntary commitment in
the mental hospital, as well as statements made to him by
myself Fishman regarding my involvement with this Church of
Scientology. I cannot afford to bring this witness to
California in order to testify.

18. I will also need to call certain hostile
witnesses who are staff members of the Church of
Scientology, including but not limited to Mr. Frank
Thompson, Mr. Ray Jourdain, Mr. Humberto Fontana, Ms.
Beverly Flahan, Mr. Luis Gonzales, Mr. Charles Fox, Mr.

9 (0023)

Mark Witt, Mr. Michael Hambrick, Mr. Peter Letterese, Mrs.
Barbara Fawcett Letterese, Ms. Denise Franklin Monco Mancha
Ms. Fran Hardy Andrews, Ms. Barbara Koster, Ms,. Leona
Littler Grimm, Ms. Celia Alvarez, Mr. Tom Staley, Ma. Karen
Staley, Ms, Shirley Hambrick, Ms. Leah Abady, Ms. Colette
Atzel, Mr. Jamie Gurlaccio, Mr. Bob Levy, Mr. Doug Carr,
Mr. Roberto Naya, Ms. Nancy Witkowski, Mr. Paul Dibble, Ms.
Linda Miller, Ms. Vicki Kirkland, Mr. Roggie Monce, and
others who are residents of either Dade or Broward County,
Florida. These witnesses will be called upon to testify
regarding the physical abuse and hypnosis performed upon
myself, AS well as Church policies regarding these
practices. Some will be asked to testify regarding the
Church policy regarding suicide and murder, as well as
specific orders directing me to assassinate Dr. Geertz and
to have me Defendant commit suicide under the auspices of
an "End of Cycle" order. others will be asked to testify
regarding the Church's involvement and direction in
ordering me to commit securities class action fraud in a
Church operation known an Operation Acting Classes, for
which I was arrested and plead guilty in an Alford Plea (of
Innocent but responsible for the acts alleged), and other
criminal acts which I was directed to commit on behalf of
the cult, including the Ethics Bait Project and Bingoing.
I cannot afford to bring any of these or other similarly
situated witnesses to California for the trial, as they are
nearly all residents of the Southern District of Florida,

10 (0024)

with the exception of Denise Franklin Monce Macha, who may
be residing in Clearwater, Florida to the best of my
recollection.
19. I will also need to call Mrs. Dorli Geertz to
testify Regarding psychological tests which she
administered on me over the Years between 1979-1990 which
will establish my deteriorating state of mind during the
time I was a devotee to and member of the Scientology cult.
I cannot afford to bring this witness to California in
order to testify.

20. Dr. Daniel M. Lipshutz. M.D. is a resident of
Singer Island, Florida, and is my uncle. He is a retired
psychiatrist formerly licensed to practice psychiatry in
New York. He has been familiar with my psychiatric history
during my entire lifetime arid will be called to testify
about how the Scientology cult had adversely affected my
thinking, belief system and my mental condition. I cannot
afford to bring this witness to California in order to
testify.

21. Mr. Samuel J. Kern, is a resident of Plantation,
Florida, and is also my uncle. He is a retired trial
attorney from Brooklyn New York, and although cannot
represent me an counsel in this case because he is not
admitted to the bar in Florida, he will assist me and act

11 (0025)

as my personal representative if the trial were conducted
in Florida. I cannot afford to bring my uncle to
California in order for him to assist me in the preparation
of my defense as my personal representative.

22. Consequently, and in the interest of justice,
I plead with the Court to transfer the venue to the
Southern District of Florida pursuant to 29 U.S.C. 1404(a).

I declare under penalty of perjury under the laws of
the State of Florida that the above is true and correct to
the best of my recollection and understanding.

Executed March 1, 1993 at Dania, Florida.

(signed steven fishman)
Dated: march 1 1993 Defendant
Pro Se
Register Number 17280-004
Dismas House
Room 324
141 N. W. 1st Avenue
Dania, Florida 33004

don't flatter yourself (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370708)

reminded of slashcode?

have you ever seen slashcode?

i've seen better code in the toilet after an all you can eat enchilada buffet.

Re:don't flatter yourself (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6371062)

You really shouldn't write code on the toilet walls. I know after an enchilda buffet one might be spending some time in there, cleaning up'n'stuff, but the walls are reserved for profanity and jokes...

Re:don't flatter yourself (1)

Read Icculus (606527) | about 11 years ago | (#6371136)

Reserved for profanity and jokes?
print "Beware of limbo dancers"

O'Reilly is right about the license thing. (5, Insightful)

saitoh (589746) | about 11 years ago | (#6370719)

The best/greatest standing part about open source isnt GNOME or KDE, or that we all have free speach software, its what we are DOING with that software. Amazon is built on perl, and look what it has accomplished.

Later in the artical he comments on Debian, and how the creator and his company Progeny dont view linux as a product, but "a set of commodity software components he can put together for different purposes."

What he's getting at is that if the OSS community wanted to push forward, you need an idea and then use linux as the tools for that idea, suhc as automated backup, or something snazy like amazon (where it is a tool, and not the product). Trying to market it as a free desktop platform (in which case linux is the product) just wont cut it. I've done projects for my university, and its worked before, and it will work again.

Disclaimer: Do I beleive that linux cant be a product? No, I'm just saying that *ONE OF* (and not limited to) the best ways is to use it as a tool, not a product.

Re:O'Reilly is right about the license thing. (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370833)

Amazon is built on perl, and look what it has accomplished.

Negative cash flow and massive debt?

Re:O'Reilly is right about the license thing. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6371004)

Negative cash flow and massive debt?
FOR ITS INVESTORS! It's creators and customers are all doing mighty fine. Hell, even the investors are starting towards getting something out of it, Amazon is turning around a little.

Re:O'Reilly is right about the license thing. (5, Insightful)

Delphix (571159) | about 11 years ago | (#6370936)

I think a good example of this is Mac OS X.

Apple used FreeBSD as the platform on which to build the Mac OS X. However O'Reilly is right on in this case. Besides the modifications to the core kernal / toolset the Open Source community doesn't get much back.

It's not so much a case of them not distributing, but they don't distribute anything that was originally open source other than the core OS. Aqua, Quartz, Carbon, the Classic Environment and all the great apps (iTunes, Safari, iMovie, iPhoto, iDVD, etc, etc) are all proprietary.

So Apple gets the core of their OS devleoped for them by Open Source community. I'm not saying they don't give back, but they do get quite a bit out of the deal. And get to sell their software (&hardware) to boot.

In the end I guess Open Source is just a two edge sword.

Re:O'Reilly is right about the license thing. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6371060)

Safari? Ever heard of KHTML?

Polyester Girl (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6371107)

Polyester Girl - Regurgitator

All I want you to say is nothing at all
And all I want you to do is stare at the wall
I love your plastic hair and plastic eyes
Marvel at your plastic breasts and plastic thighs

My Polyester Girl

Polyester Girl

Polyester Girl

Polyester Girl

Your the perfect guy's accessory
Dangling from my arm for all the pretty people to see
Poised with sassy pout and perky cleave
Great for backstage and entertainment award ceremonies

My Polyester Girl

Polyester Girl

Polyester Girl

Polyester Girl

Took you for a ride up in an aeroplane
But your body burst and left and ugly stain
Had to take your pieces back to the factory
It took them several weeks to get you back to me

My Polyester Girl

Polyester Girl

Polyester Girl

Polyester Girl

She's my Polyester Girl
Shiniest in all the world

I'm Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Man (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370720)

I hope I will enjoy my show.

In Case of Slashdotting... (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370734)

Here's O'Reilly's take... it's kind of quick, though:

Shut up! Shut up! Shut up! Shut up! You are a terrorist! Cut his mic! Cut his mic! Shut up! Shut up! Shut your mouth! Shut up!

Re:In Case of Slashdotting... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370787)

Hmm.. that sounds more like the rantings of James Carville..

at least O'Reilly gives his interviewees the curtosey of saying his point and giving them last word, even if O'Reilly himself is a bit of a nut

Re:In Case of Slashdotting... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370856)

at least O'Reilly gives his interviewees the curtosey of saying his point and giving them last word, even if O'Reilly himself is a bit of a nut

I guess it's true that Bill O'Reilly gives his interviewees the courtesy to speak if they're saying his point, otherwise it's more like this:

O'Reilly: How do you respond to these allegations that you are a child raping terrorist money launderer? I have some spurious statistics here that say this is 100% true.

Victim: Well, I don't...

O'Reilly: Well that may be your opinion but this is the NO SPIN zone! I'm just telling it like it is! We report, you decide! Back in a moment with more pinko commies!

Although I will admit, I've heard his radio show and for some reason he tones it down a bit on there.

Re:In Case of Slashdotting... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370924)

Well, you must be watching a different O'Reilly.

He gives his interviewes PLENTY of fair play and chance to make a point. Are you asking him to not make a point at all and give the microphone over to whoever he interviews? Come on people..

Re:In Case of Slashdotting... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6371014)

I don't know who you're watching, I was watching this [practicalradical.net] Bill O'Reilly. The biggest disgrace to America.

Even his Peabody can't save him now!

eBay's purchase of Oracle??? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370738)

What, are you nuts? Ellison can probably buy ebay with his pocket change!

Re:eBay's purchase of Oracle??? (5, Informative)

g_arumilli (324501) | about 11 years ago | (#6370767)

According to Yahoo! Finance, EBay has a market capitalization of $34.9 billion, while Oracle has one of $63.6 billion. So unless Larry Ellison has "pocket change" on the order of tens of billions of dollars, he doesn't have a shot in hell of purchasing EBay. While it may be a stretch to assume that EBay will some day grow large enough to purchase Oracle, it is kind of suprising how large EBay has grown.

Re:eBay's purchase of Oracle??? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370790)

Market Cap doesn't mean shit. Pets.com had a market cap of $18 Billion and went bankrupt 11 months later.

Re:eBay's purchase of Oracle??? (2, Interesting)

g_arumilli (324501) | about 11 years ago | (#6370804)

True, but stable Market Cap is at least a good indication of size, not necessarily stability and/or viability...Given EBay's history of putting up profits and considering that there doesn't appear to be any fall-off in its business despite this "recession", I think it's fair to say that they're a large company that would be next to impossible for Oracle to acquire...

Re:eBay's purchase of Oracle??? (2, Funny)

rifftide (679288) | about 11 years ago | (#6370832)

Granted it's possible their caps could someday be reversed, but what would eBay do with Oracle? That's like AOL buying Netscape.

Re:eBay's purchase of Oracle??? (4, Funny)

great throwdini (118430) | about 11 years ago | (#6371128)

What would eBay do with Oracle? That's like AOL buying Netscape.

If they ever grew tired with it, they would simply let the market decide. I can almost see it now:

"ORACLE CORP. MIB - FREE SHIP W/ BIN - LQQK!!!"

(For the eBay fanatics, that is a full 45-character auction listing.)

slashdot/code? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370747)

> i can't help but be reminded of the rise of this
site and slashcode

except, unlike slashdot (and the twice abysmal
slashcode), ebay and oracle don't Suck

There's another great example of commoditization: (5, Interesting)

Exitthree (646294) | about 11 years ago | (#6370753)

...Apple. Look at what Apple did with OS X. Apple took an Open Source OS and pinned it up with a proprietary front-end. The system benefits from all of the Open Source advancements in hardware control, while at the same time, the user has all the benefits of a modern, easy-to-use interface.

Perhaps the article should have pointed out that the commoditization of Open Source largely involves the things the user never sees. What hasn't evolved yet is a fundamentally easy-to-use Open Source GUI for the whole slew of commodity parts in the back-end.

Other companies have taken a similar path with commodity software, Red Hat for instance. However, their business plan involves capitalization on commodity products, not in the interface department, but rather in the support department. In theory, these two branches aren't that far separated. Interface and support both help the user accomplish the same thing, that is, getting work done on the computer.

I think we're nearing the turning point where we decide there aren't that many tasks we haven't managed to code on the computer. In comparison, we have a much larger area to cross in making things easier for the user. It would make perfect sense, business-wise, to assume that the area that is most open for development is the area that is most profitable. Therefore, I imagine this is the next area that software, internet, and computer manufacturers will flourish.

Re:There's another great example of commoditizatio (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370789)

Oh come on come on come on. What, exactly is hard to use about KDE3? Just name one thing, anything. Please, go for it.

Re:There's another great example of commoditizatio (5, Informative)

fiftyvolts (642861) | about 11 years ago | (#6370807)

Bingo.

Don't think that O'Reilly doesn't know this either. Check out how many books, articles, and so forth they have published since OS X came out. I had the privilege a few months ago to have a sit down with the current editor of the Apple books, and from the way he talked it seems that O'Reilly is nothing short of ecstatic about the OS.

O'Reilly, IMHO, publishes by far the best books on the market. This is because they have excellent editors and scouts (for lack of a better word) to find very intelligent, very insightful people to write their books. I suggest people check out there dev sites more often; they are treasure troves of info

The O'Reilly Network [oreillynet.com]

MacDevCenter.com [macdevcenter.com]

OnDotNet.com [ondotnet.com]

OnJava.com [onjava.com]

OnLamp.com [onlamp.com]

openp2p.com [openp2p.com]

osdir.com [osdir.com]

Perl.com [perl.com]

XML.com [xml.com]

Re:There's another great example of commoditizatio (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6371007)

I agree totally about your high opinion of O'Reilly books. Indeed, if there is one thing their consistent quality brings to mind, it is the polish and usability of quality Microsoft [microsoft.com] software. It is, IMHO, by far the best software on the market. It is because they have top-notch programmers, and excellent integration with leading PC makers. Here are some of my favorite Microsoft [microsoft.com] products:

Windows XP [microsoft.com]

Office XP [microsoft.com]

Internet Explorer [microsoft.com]

Windows Server 2003 [microsoft.com]

Windows Media Player [microsoft.com]

Internet Information Services [microsoft.com]

Microsoft .NET [microsoft.com]

SQL Server [microsoft.com]

Visual Studio .NET [microsoft.com]

IAWTP (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6371058)

I agree with this post.

to expand on one point you made (5, Insightful)

mindstrm (20013) | about 11 years ago | (#6371109)

regarding an open source gui...

(agree with everything you said, btw)

As a long time hardcore technical guy, and let me back that up by saying I'm a unix nut, I've been using linux heavily for 10 years now, solaris before that, and I get right into the guts.. I like assembly, circuit boards, and whatnot. I like a command prompt and I don't like microsoft.... anyway....
as a hardcore technical guy, open source liker, and a recent convert to OS-X... the comment about a gui got me thinking.

I like open source. I like open everything. I don't like being told what to do with my computer. Yet, I LOVE OSX, and I recognize that the one strength MacOS really has is that apple controls the desktop. It's not that you can't skin it, ,or change it's behavior.. but, in general, it's built to behave a certain way, and you can go around to macs everywhere, and the machine behave the way you expect them to. The developer knows what the user expects, and doesn't have to account for a dozen different ways to interface with things. More importantly, he has somewhre to start.. look how many windows applications have varied interfaces. To really understand this, in case anyone is doubting it, just sit down with a fresh mac and mac user for a few hours and learn how to install software, work with files, etc... you'll get it.

So.. we want an open source gui. Here's the thing... the only reason the mac has the "world class gui" feel to it is BECAUSE of a certain lack of openness.. we're talking about a benevolent dictator here. Apple developers know what to expect on the desktop, know how the mac user expects it to behave... and that's the main attraction. If you don't want that, you might as well go use linux.

Yes, we can do stuff in linux that OSX can't do. Yes, open is good, no argument here...I'm just tossing out the thought that, when it comes to providing a rock solid user experience, for a general purpose computer... a lack of choice is sometimes what's needed.. to get people thinking and doing the same thing.
You can sit someone down and show them windows -vs- mac.. and invariably, the mac people get more done, and are more comfortable with their gui.. and it's not because one is more customizable, or more flexible.. in fact it's the opposite.

Open Source and Government Research (5, Insightful)

dreadlord76 (562584) | about 11 years ago | (#6370756)

I just finished attending a Molecular Biology Training class, and I couldn't help drawing parallels between Open Source and the public Research that is on-going, such as the Human Genome Project.

Like open source software, public research labs publish the data they found, such as mouse or yeast genome, into the public domain (Humor me, I know that Open Source is not public domain, but it's darn close in terms of availability and cost). In addition, when a lab creates a new genomic library, they are supposed to make it available to anyone who asks. Sounds a lot like Open Source.

However, privately funded research usually do not have such policy, and use patents, trade secrets, and Copyrights to protect the IP. This has some effect in slowly down advancement in science in many ways. Such research also lead to imporant, and profitable advances for the companies involved.

But, due to limited public funding, not all worthwhile projects are funded in a timely fashion. A grant request to the NIH may take years before approved. A private company, seizing an oppertunity, may choose to invest and jump start a new field of research.

It seems that both models can co exist, and maybe it's time to have a publicly funded, or even an industry funded, organization, the supports Open Source development. The group should focus on open standards, common tools and platforms, and anything else someone can make a good case for. Something that will advance our knowledge, and make life easier. Something that we all cooperate on, rather than having blackmails or mighty pissing contests.

Maybe we should begin to treat Computer Science like Science, and really advance it methodically, rather than "My code is faster than your code..."

Re:Open Source and Government Research (1)

rot26 (240034) | about 11 years ago | (#6370851)

Maybe we should begin to treat Computer Science like Science, and really advance it methodically, rather than "My code is faster than your code..."

Ok, I'm talking out of my ass here. But I think that this has been a goal of computer academics since Day One, pretty much, hasn't it? With practically nothing to show for it? Engineering and science are all about metrics, and for software, those have been practically impossible to come by. I mean, Booch and all those guys certainly gave it a shot, and some people live by Rational, etc, but from what I can see (admittedly maybe not much) there just isn't much relevance for most of us out here, if for no other reason than it's just not possible due to time constraints (aside from huge projects by huge companies, and what percent of software "out there" does THAT represent anyway?) And do any of the current hot paradigms (i.e. extreme program) have any metrics built in at all?? No metrics == it ain't science, baby.

Re:Open Source and Government Research (1, Insightful)

Feztaa (633745) | about 11 years ago | (#6371051)

it's time to have a publicly funded, or even an industry funded, organization, the supports Open Source development.

We have that, and they call themselves "International Business Machines." As I understand it, they sell so-called "business solutions" based on Linux, and they bankroll some of the kernel developers. In fact, from what I can tell, it's fairly common (sort of) to see companies who use Linux in some way and fund people to develop it for them (Hans Reiser is probably the best example of this). I would say that those kinds of people are living the dream, so to speak :)

There's also the OSDL, where Torvalds now works. I don't know much about them, though; sounds sort of like a company who pays people to develop linux and then makes money doing... something?

Re:Open Source and Government Research (1)

twifkak (177173) | about 11 years ago | (#6371095)

You know, every once in a while, I wish they had ratings higher than 5. :)

bahahahahha (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370758)

I couldn't help but be reminded of the rise of this site and slashcode.

I couldn't help but be reminded of how GAY you are.

Re:bahahahahha (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370796)

Thank You, somebody had to say what we all were thinking.

I appreciate your use of bold. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370994)

Few people seem to realize how much a post can be spruced up with judicious use of bold and italics.

You are quite welcome... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6371080)

That's very true. I was considering adding a <tt> tag to add a little "je ne c'est quoi?", but a true style maven knows when a touch more is just too much.

With Warmest Regards,
Martha Stewart
CEO of Martha Stewart OmniTrolling

APSL covers deployment too (4, Interesting)

sbwoodside (134679) | about 11 years ago | (#6370768)

What's wrong with this picture? Well, one thing is that one of the fundamental premises of open source is that the licenses are all conditioned on the act of software distribution, and once you're no longer distributing an application, none of the licenses mean squat.

One of the things that was criticized about the APSL [apple.com] was that it covers deployment as well. And they define deployment as anything other than R&D and personal use. Check it out in Section 1.4.

simon

Re:APSL covers deployment too (2, Interesting)

rekkanoryo (676146) | about 11 years ago | (#6370884)

Is it just me or does that license look like BSD License meets GPL, with the provision that Apple is allowed to do basically anything they want with any derivative works?

to a hammer, everything is a nail (4, Insightful)

astrashe (7452) | about 11 years ago | (#6370773)

I think that a lot of the dyanamics he's talking about hold true -- obviously, O'Reilley is a very smart guy.

But it seems to me that he's looking at service industries, and calling them software companies. In order to do that, he has to change the definition of a software company, and as a result he's able to announce this as a shift in the software industry.

My problem with what he says is mostly aesthetic. It's that same old silicon valley rich guy entrepeneur guru bs.

He's making a lot of points that most people know -- web applications are more exciting, in many respects, than desktop applications now. Web applications are being built out of commodity pieces. The data in eBay and the customer good will is worth more than the code. All of those are good points, if not exactly earth shaking.

But the way he's stiched them together is mostly a semantic trick, and he's out there like he's been given stone tablets on some moutaintop.

It's not evil or anything, just a little icky.

probably the grestest (3, Interesting)

minus_273 (174041) | about 11 years ago | (#6370774)

hinderances to OSS is the image. I say this because ive met people who will use macs but they wont use linux because of the people who promote it as an anti business anti capitalist vehicle. The mozilla logo doesnt go very far in helping remove that image. then there those who genuinely belive that through linux they can bring a revolution of a politicla nature. its unlikely to happen it wil just hurt linux

Re:probably the grestest (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370806)

Well with all due respect, so what? You're saying that these people won't use Linux because some people promote it as anti-business? Good grief, what do you want! You get stable, fast, powerful code for FREE, source code and binaries, packaged up all ready to go with easy installation, people willing to support you for nothing, and they're afraid because some wackos think it's anti-capitalist?!

What is it? What do you want? A troupe of dancing grizzly bears or something?

But Linux is only the means to our end (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6371001)

The end is not that the Linux kernel will be successful.

The end is a society in which the thinking about software has radically shifted.

The success of the Linux kernel may be a means to this end, but it most certainly is not the only means.

If we fail with Linux, then we will succeed with the Hurd. If we fail with the Hurd, then we will try yet again. We will not cease. We will not tire.

The final end of the politico/economic cycle is inevitable.

The final end is a society in which there are no copyright and no patents, where what can be freely reproduced and distributed is freely reproduced and distributed to all who desire it or who may benefit from it.

It is a grave wrong to withold from your fellow man what you could give to him at no cost to yourself, when doing so would bring him benefit.

The final end is a society in which individuals well-suited to create are funded by the community. A community in which all needs held in common are funded in common. A community in which it is given unto each according to his or her need, the need to survive, the need for satisfying labor, the need for satisfying social practices, and the need to create. A community in which each gives according to his or her ability, for the good of the his or her brothers and sisters in waiting.

Put off the chains of your capitalist masters!

Workers of the world unite!

Re:But Linux is only the means to our end (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6371130)

In the immortal words of Eric Cartman: Screw you hippie!

Get over it. It's a fucking good operating system cobbled together by a charitable community, not a religion. I swear the #1 thing keeping people away from GNU is you hardcore leftists and your anal-retentive anti-commercialism.

Re:probably the grestest (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6371021)

I know what you mean about Mozilla. Once there was this poll on Mozillazine [mozillazine.org] asking what color the Mozilla logo should be. All of the choices were red! Do these people realize how important it is in these times of heightened patriotism to reflect American values? Do they really want to do even more to show the anti-capitalist character of what they are doing, as if Richard Stallman's rantings weren't enough to convince the world of the truth of the comparisons made by SCO CEO Darl McBride between open-source software and Napster?

GPL3? (3, Interesting)

mdxi (3387) | about 11 years ago | (#6370791)

To condense, O'Reilly says that licenses which allow you to modify and use code without releasing it because you aren't distributing it -- as is the case with Amazon and eBay -- are failures, because they don't force those changes and possible improvements back to the community.

He does not, however, provide a solution or an alternative, or get into the question of whether Amazon and eBay actually are "distributing" the code by having millions of people outside their organizations use it every day. I believe this (the "ASP loophole") is one of the things being addressed by version 3 of the GPL (the current version dates to 1991, before the birth of the web). If the GPL does change to define, say, execution of programs via CGI interface, as distribution, it's hard to fully imagine what the repercussions will be.

Re:GPL3? (2, Interesting)

rifftide (679288) | about 11 years ago | (#6370894)

That would be a radical change to the GPL, to say that distributing products created by the software amounts to distributing the software. I doubt Linux will buy into that and many customers won't either - they'll take their software from forked codebases if they have to.

I disagree (3, Insightful)

poptones (653660) | about 11 years ago | (#6370927)

I don't think he was saying they were failures at all. And I'm pretty sure the reason he didn't offer "solutions or alternatives" is because there are none - and there need be none. To "fix" this (were it broken) would set a precedent pretty much like the one so many of us lambasted corporations for a decade ago - that is, if you use our tools to create a product then you have to abide by our terms, including paying us a license to distribute code made with our compiler. I mean, wasn't this one of the driving forces behind making new compilers and a new OS? One that would be free of this stuff?

Amazon and all the others are free to build and deploy using the same tools everyone else uses, and playing by the same rules. They are not to blame for being successful enough that their data being manipulated by those tools is more valuable than someone elses. Or for having the money and foresight to employ programmers to use those tools to create new tools for the company's own personal use.

There's nothing to "fix" here because nothing is broken. Should you have to license hammers from Black & Decker because you build houses for a living?

Re:GPL3? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6371018)

I would guess that a change like that in the GPL would result in people continuing to use the current GPL! I think it's extremely unlikely that a change like that would take place. That's a road that leads towards making all programs generated with GCC GPLed programs and that's not a place we want to be.

Nope - won't be in GPL3 (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6371030)

I don't have a reference to the post, but in the ReiserFS interview thread, a link was posted to a thread in which RMS specifically addresses this.

There will be no such restriction in version 3 of the GPL. There will never be such a restriction.

RMS believes that it would violate a central tenent of FSF philosophy.

I disagree. I think that the problem is with corporations being treated as persons. Any one human person should be able to modify without redistributing, but we are under no ethical obligation to do the same for these artificial entities created long ago through bribes to judges and government officials. That they are persons, is a lie.

If you believe that you have ethical obligations to these fake persons, then you have been duped; you have been duped into accepting the lie that there is nothing wrong with one man exploiting his brothers and sisters to raise hiimself and his underlings above their peers.

Put off the chains of your capitalist masters!

Workers of the world unite!

Tim O is right (4, Informative)

RevMike (632002) | about 11 years ago | (#6370799)

I have a cousin working for a company that sells, among other things, a mainframe based spreadsheet app. He claims that the market for applications is drying up, and I have to agree.

The fact of the matter is that the various open source or free products are good enough. As the software consumers become better educated, the market for traditional applications shrinks. OpenOffice.org is good enough that anyone who knows better won't buy MS Office. Opera is as good as any browser out there and can be run free of charge - with only a minor banner ad. One by one any major "shrink wrap" product will feel the pinch.

The future is in two places - integration and data critical mass.

Integration is really going to be two businesses - creating then supporting custom collections of free software and writing code to integrate free applications into custom solutions. The first business is already developing - with companies such as RedHat leading the way. The second business is in its infancy - but much of our future lay with workflow scripting.

Data Critical Mass is the business of becoming the big boy in a market with no natural barriers and doing it well enough that there is no reason for customers to look elsewhere. Very honestly, how long would it take a small group of decent programers to replicate "eBay"? I think about a week. But at the end of the week could we provide better value? Hell, no! Why would anyone list with us, and our "dozens of potential buyers" on day one when they can list with eBay and be seen by "millions"?

In the future, all general purpose applications will be written by bearded socialist hippies while smoking pot in their basements as the professional (in the sense of getting paid - not work quality) programmers write workflow scripts in the office. Meanwhile the eBays and Amazons are smart enough to keep the "goose laying the golden eggs" alive, content to dominate their marketplace and earn a decent margin rather than try to get a fat margin and instead create an opeing for a competitor.

Re:Tim O is right (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370857)

"Opera is as good as any browser out there and can be run free of charge - with only a minor banner ad."

Why would you use that as an example when there are several free browsers with NO banner ads.

Re:Tim O is right (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370909)

Because he's a moron, as evidenced by the fact he would use a phrase like "Data Critical Mass." Yeah, you heard me, big boy. Did you read that in Datamation ?

Re:Tim O is right (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370899)

Opera isn't Open Source...

Mozilla? Galeon? K-Meleon? Phoenix? Chimera?

or whatever those last two were renamed.

Re:Tim O is right (2, Funny)

rifftide (679288) | about 11 years ago | (#6370918)

I have a cousin working for a company that sells, among other things, a mainframe based spreadsheet app. He claims that the market for applications is drying up, and I have to agree.

I heard there's this commodity-priced competitor called "VisiCalc".

Hm, socialist potsmoking hippy or corporate drone? (4, Insightful)

mikeophile (647318) | about 11 years ago | (#6370957)

I'm not sure what kind of point you're trying to make, but making a living in my basement home office coding applications while high sounds a lot better than writing TPS workflow scripts for a faceless corporation in a partitioned rat maze.

Re:Tim O is right (1)

ReallyQuietGuy (683431) | about 11 years ago | (#6370984)

The fact of the matter is that the various open source or free products are good enough. As the software consumers become better educated, the market for traditional applications shrinks. OpenOffice.org is good enough that anyone who knows better won't buy MS Office. Opera is as good as any browser out there and can be run free of charge - with only a minor banner ad. One by one any major "shrink wrap" product will feel the pinch

what about utilities? i am thinking of things like antivirus tools and stuff like norton utilities. even if free alternatives exist, people will still want to pay for something that has some kind of "backing" for it, because part of what motivates this kind of purchases is fear.

And when people are afraid they're always willing to whip out the wallet. OSS utilities are not going to be able to compare in the Joe Consumers mind with some (whether correct or unfounded) Big Reliable Trustworthy Megacorp (people buy from MS for this reason too).

fuck the GPL and GNU/Communism (-1, Troll)

Figlet Troll (686897) | about 11 years ago | (#6370812)

_______________________________________
|_|___________(_)_______/__|_________|_|__________
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|_|\__,_|_|_|_|_/_/\_\_|_|__\__,_|\__,_|\__,_|\___ |
________________________________________|___/
___________________
_________________|_|_______________
|_'__\_/__`_|/___|_|/_/___\_'__/___|
|_|_)_|_(_|_|_(__|___\____/_|__\___\
|_.__/_\__,_|\___|_|\_\___|_|__|___/
|_|


Important_Stuff:_ Please_try_to_keep_posts_on_topic._ Try_to_reply_to_other_people's_comments_instead_of _starting_new_threads._ Read_other_people's_messages_before_posting_your_o wn_to_avoid_simply_duplicating_what_has_already_be en_said._ Use_a_clear_subject_that_describes_what_your_messa ge_is_about._ Offtopic,_Inflammatory,_Inappropriate,_Illegal,_or _Offensive_comments_might_be_moderated._(You_can_r ead_everything,_even_moderated_posts,_by_adjusting _your_threshold_on_the_User_Preferences_Page)_

Re:fuck the GPL and GNU/Communism (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370865)

How long did it take you to create that image?

Re:fuck the GPL and GNU/Communism (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6371008)

Interesting question! Let's perform a benchmark.

$ time figlet lunix fudge packers | tr ' ' '_'
real 0m0.005s
user 0m0.002s
sys 0m0.002s

Re:fuck the GPL and GNU/Communism (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6371031)

I hope you were using Microsoft Windows in conjunction with a licensed Unix compatibility environment such as Microsoft Unix Services for Windows, or a fully licensed version of Unix such as SCO Unixware or Solaris, in order to run that program. Hopefully you are aware that the popular Linux operating system has been revealed by many leading industry analysts to contain copyrighted Unix code, making it effectively illegal to use, and opening all users and distributors to possible damages due to SCO for illegal use of licensed intellectual property.

Re:fuck the GPL and GNU/Communism (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370950)

I'm not exactly sure what that says. "linux fudge packers"?

Maybe I'm using the wrong font.

'lunix', not 'linux' (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370996)

en tea bitch

Happy Birthday America! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370815)

Happy 227!

Re:Happy Birthday America! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370860)

Hahahahaha you are a suck fuck dumb pig wig silly billy

Open Source Licenses and Web Services (2, Interesting)

JLyle (267134) | about 11 years ago | (#6370816)

Tim O'Reilly's comments about open source licenses and their irrelevance for internet applications reminded of this article [webservicesarchitect.com] by Joe Johnston from a few years ago. It was written around the beginning of the media blitz on Microsoft's .NET platform, and goes into some more detail about possible ramifications for open source software developers of the shift to web services and internet applications.

The last paragraph from Joe Johnson says it all. (2, Interesting)

LibertineR (591918) | about 11 years ago | (#6370967)

"It is tempting for Open Source developers to look at Microsoft's marketing blitz surrounding .NET and scoff. Unfortunately for them, Microsoft is positioning itself for the future. Because only descriptions of Web Services are needed in order to use them, Web Services greatly reduces the need for vendor-supplied libraries to be installed on local workstations. A Web Service aware application will become a small shell of a program that contains display logic. Where does this leave the Open Source community? It won't be hard to create Open Source work-alike applications to access the same services that the closed source version does, but is that the point? The Open Source movement is about the freedom to play with code as if it were a box of Lego; Web Services just might take the most interesting parts away."

Bucky Fuller predicted this in a way. (5, Interesting)

mikeophile (647318) | about 11 years ago | (#6370839)

That a certain percentage of the population be given machine lathes with the condition that they have to produce at least one additional lathe to give with the same condition to someone who didn't have one yet.

Very soon, everyone would have lathes. The market for lathes would be nil. The new market would be for what you could produce with your lathe. Even that market would wane, since anything that was produced for market could be quickly copied by others.

I think eventually, the market would shift again. Now, the lathe owners would create new proprietary tools that would be used to produce goods and services.

It seems the IT industry is going through those evolutions now.

The PC is our lathe, and the software is the first tier of production from these lathes.

When a new application comes out, such as the browser, it's just a question of time before the concept is copied to the point of market saturation.

Open Source is the recognition of this inevitability, and is providing the templates for this first tier.

Now, the challenge is to take these tools and make our own, custom applications and profit from them.

Amazon and Ebay have done this for themselves, but are wisely cooperating with individuals who are making new tools to profit with them.

If Bucky was right, the wealth that can be created by such cooperation has no limits.

Re:Bucky Fuller predicted this in a way. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370878)

That analogy is stretched further than Pamela Anderson's silicone injected tits and her cum filled twat.

Microsoft understood this long ago. (5, Insightful)

LibertineR (591918) | about 11 years ago | (#6370849)

For at least the last 5 years, Microsoft has understood that nobody buys 'Windows or Office or Exchange'. Corporation buy Networking, Information Management and Messaging instead, and the winners are those who provide the TOOLS for these business missions better than the next guy.

Linux vs Windows was never the proper battle, it was always a battle over what you DO with these things, and how you do them more effieciently than the other guy. Lots of companies NEED something like Exchange, so they by an Active Directory and Windows by default, and so on and so on.

O'Reilly is dead on right. All this shit is just commodity for the applications built upon it that actually generate income. Superiority of one platform over another is a moot point. No one decides to buy a book at Amazon because of Linux, instead of Barnes and Noble because they run on IIS, so get over it.

Windows against Linux is now like Goodyear versus Michelin. Who gives a shit? Only tire makers, not CAR makers. So, it is time to focus on building shit that rides on these things, instead of so much focus on the things themselves. No side has an advantage right now, but that could change overnight. Suppose Microsoft buys Amazon, or EBay buys Oracle? Same players, whole new battle, and all this crap over which OS is better doesnt mean a thing.

What if Microsoft buys Macromedia; takes Flash and does interesting remoting stuff with Web Services tied only to .NET? What is the competing solution from IBM going to look like?

I've got no answers, but I agree with O'Reilly that things are going to get very interesting over the next few years, and things are never going to be the same.

Microsoft doesnt understood anything (1)

argoff (142580) | about 11 years ago | (#6370997)

O'Reilly is dead on right. All this shit is just commodity for the applications built upon it that actually generate income. Superiority of one platform over another is a moot point. No one decides to buy a book at Amazon because of Linux, instead of Barnes and Noble because they run on IIS, so get over it.

Supperiority of the Linux opperating system, and it's useability in business was never the point. It has always been supperiority of the GPL and how the freedom it secures creates more opportunities than the alternatives. GNU/Linux takes advantage of the fact that information can be coppied freely rather than treating it as a threat. GNU/Linux treats information like information rather than a false property right - that has no rational place in a world where true property derives from true physical limits and the fact that not everybody can have everything at the same time. Well with information they can, it is irrational to treat it any other way, and contrary to what everybody says - copyrights are more like information regulations than any sort of free market property right, ones that might have been bearable when the only issue was copy machines, but just don't have a place in the information age.

Re:Microsoft doesnt understood anything - Genius (2, Interesting)

LibertineR (591918) | about 11 years ago | (#6371068)

GNU/Linux treats information like information rather than a false property right

Totally false. If you dont think information is 'PROPERTY' then go take some that is claimed by someone else and see what happens to you. Information is like anything else. It can be free, it can be owned, it can be rented, it can be stolen, it can be borrowed and returned. It that is irrational, then the world is irrational.

The GPL is moot, pal. Or did you read the article and understand it? Web Services kick the GPL in the ass and send it running home to momma.

Copyrights become even more important now, because services themseves will become redundant, and features and availability will determine who gets the dollar. It used to be that the guy who made the movie got rich. Now, it is going to be the guy who sells tickets, and the maker will be happy to share his wares with anyone and everyone who wants to build upon them.

Microsoft has moved toward Web Services more than any other vendor. With a couple of strategic purchases, I think they stand to win big time.

Really. (3, Interesting)

mindstrm (20013) | about 11 years ago | (#6371131)

Actaully, that never even came up. The choice to use linux as a platform for projects is based on whether or not it can deliver, and how easily the developers involved in the project can work with it, and the cost/benefit ratio of using it.

Complying with the license, in this case, sharing source again, is simply part of the cost of using it, and not that hard in practice to deal with.

So while what you say about linux treating information freely is very true, and quite important from an overall viewpoint, it is not the reason why people, or companies, use it.

I can guarantee that the company I work for didn't decide to use linux just so they could "give back" to the world... they picked it becuase it got the job done.. giving back is part of the cost.

Linux is only a means to our end (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6371064)

[snip]
The end is not that the Linux kernel will be successful.

The end is a society in which the thinking about software has radically shifted.

The success of the Linux kernel may be a means to this end, but it most certainly is not the only means.

If we fail with Linux, then we will succeed with the Hurd. If we fail with the Hurd, then we will try yet again. We will not cease. We will not tire.

The final end of the politico/economic cycle is inevitable.

The final end is a society in which there are no copyright and no patents, where what can be freely reproduced and distributed is freely reproduced and distributed to all who desire it or who may benefit from it.

It is a grave wrong to withold from your fellow man what you could give to him at no cost to yourself, when doing so would bring him benefit.

The final end is a society in which individuals well-suited to create are funded by the community. A community in which all needs held in common are funded in common. A community in which it is given unto each according to his or her need, the need to survive, the need for satisfying labor, the need for satisfying social practices, and the need to create. A community in which each gives according to his or her ability, for the good of the his or her brothers and sisters in waiting.

Put off the chains of your capitalist masters!

Workers of the world unite!

Re:Linux is only a means to our end (1)

LibertineR (591918) | about 11 years ago | (#6371082)

Hey, it's Karl Marx! I thought you were dead!!!

Either that, or someone could REALLY use a nap.

Disturbing trend... (4, Interesting)

diabolus_in_america (159981) | about 11 years ago | (#6370854)

I think O'Reilly is right, but it points to a very disturbing trend, especially if you are someone who makes a living writing code.

What he is saying is that business solutions in the immediate future are no longer going to be development and integrated applications (basically, code), but ideas. Why is this disturbing? Because it removes the an entire industry from the equation, or at least, it shifts the software industry down in terms of relevance and importance.

He is saying that innovation will no longer come from companies like IBM or Oracle, but from the development of new business processes.

In fact, if you replace the word commodity with the word marginalization in his interview, you'll better see my point. And as software becomes more and more marginalized, the value of the software as well as those of us who write the software drops.

Frankly, it scares me to think that the skills I've worked so hard and spend so much to develop (and continue to develop) have nothing but marginal value.

Re:Disturbing trend... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370890)

Quite the contrary. If you can develop a web application for a particular domain, and there are an incredible number of domains, then you can get rich. Managing a web application and either renting it to users, or making income from transactions, is infinitely easier than writing a desktop or enterprise application and trying to sell it. Believe me, I have tried selling enterprise systems to banks, and it is ridiculously difficult.

Yes, But... (4, Insightful)

LibertineR (591918) | about 11 years ago | (#6370916)

True that the market for Developers(the new mechanics) will shrink. But other markets for those skills will open up, as long as developers keep a business focus to what they do. There is nothing left to innovate in software itself, but much to innovate in the use and application of same to solve or streamline a business process or customer's service.

I'm happy for the change, so we can get over these stupid platform wars, and focus on things that actually do something besides send bits back and forth. Now we get to focus more on the value of those bits, and I think that is a good thing.

Re:Disturbing trend... (1)

mikeophile (647318) | about 11 years ago | (#6370921)

business solutions in the immediate future are no longer going to be development and integrated applications (basically, code), but ideas.
I think you hit the nail on the head.

Ideas are what it's all about.

It's going to get a lot harder to profit from just being a code drone for some large company.

To profit is going to require thought, a lot of it.

Not just the kind of thought you use in programming, but non-linear, right brain thought.

The people who can think holistically have a serious advantage at this.

For those who have difficulty in this area, I suggest you start hanging out with the crazy dreamer types who post the kind of drivel I do.

Re:Disturbing trend... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6371104)

I'd rather stick a fork in my eye than hang around a deadbeat like you

Re:Disturbing trend... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6371117)

Go for it, Patch.

Re:Disturbing trend... (1)

ReallyQuietGuy (683431) | about 11 years ago | (#6370992)

Frankly, it scares me to think that the skills I've worked so hard and spend so much to develop (and continue to develop) have nothing but marginal value.

Losing value? They're already exporting everything out to India, you realize...

Hmmm.... (5, Insightful)

Delphix (571159) | about 11 years ago | (#6370868)

Having read the article twice I'm not qutie sure I get O'Reilly's point.

What he's saying is correct, but it's not exactly earthshattering in anyway. Amazon puts together some services that rock. They patent them. And then they sell the service to others. That just seems logical.

How that ties into driving Open Source I'm not sure. If they're only devleoping proprietary things (services) on top of an open source backbone, they're not really driving Open Source devlopment. Just because I compile my program with gcc or use a perl script doesn't mean I'm driving open source development in anyway. They're just using it as the foundation to build on.

Open Source is by definition controlled by anyone who wants it to be. Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems like he's just stating the obvious and it has little to do with Open Source.

Wow this O'Reilly guy is smart. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370870)

Software is a commodity? +5 Insightful - if this were 200 years ago before software was invented!

Re:Wow this O'Reilly guy is smart. (0, Redundant)

deadsaijinx* (637410) | about 11 years ago | (#6371048)

hello everybody!

Economic drivers (4, Insightful)

Pettifogger (651170) | about 11 years ago | (#6370900)

What O'Reilly has to say is pretty much on target, but I'm not sure if open source will be entirely subsumed by corporations looking to profit. Perhaps for industrial applications, but not on the home level.

What's going to happen on the home level is what's already happened to the hardware market. Everyone is looking for the lowest price. When the PC first came out, a lot of people were concerned about the brand/reputation, et al., and were willing to pay a premium for an AT&T, IBM, or other high-line product. That's where the software market is right now. The high-end hardware makers got slaughtered by price. And now the high-end software market is about to get slaughtered. Microsoft (and lots of others) are going to have to compete against the software equivalent of incredibly cheap clone hardware... and they are going to lose.

Rethink (1)

nakaduct (43954) | about 11 years ago | (#6371010)

If every application that matters is on the web, then there is no "home market" for anything, except glorified dumb terminals and games.

Sorry, but the simple fact is that (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6370906)

Tim O'Reilley is a raging homosexual. Everything he says or does is pure faggotry.

The Great Pretender (1)

release7 (545012) | about 11 years ago | (#6370993)

On that basis, I will predict that -- this is an outrageous prediction -- but eBay will buy Oracle someday.

I predict that---and this is probably total bullshit---O'Reilly will become 1/10th the master of the software universe he thinks he is.

*space* (0, Troll)

deadsaijinx* (637410) | about 11 years ago | (#6371017)

considering how long it took to even reach 70 posts on this story, I can laugh at people that complain how /. is too US-centric. I mean, just look, most of the /. community is american, i just think the louder ones are foreign ;]

O'Reilly is WRONG about the license thing (3, Insightful)

that _evil _gleek (598545) | about 11 years ago | (#6371024)

O'Reilly is WRONG about the license thing. He seems to think it was an oversight, or mistake, that allowed Amazon, Google, etc to work the way they do. As IF.
It was no oversight at all. It was design. Seems liked he's been believing OpenSource as described by its opponents, like it's communism or something, as opposed to what it is. Those are successes, not failures!
Actually, I'm a little surprised -- I mean where is that on the 5 stages of understanding the GPL? ("OH its NOT communism, it /is/ possible to make money with it"). I think I was there for like 5 minutes sometime in '96.

Plenty of companies have been screwed by not getting the source, and getting straight-jacketed into dealing w/ only 1 company.. not just individuals. I see that as the point of opensource, take away the power to abuse that the software industry has, but not to be anti-industry in general. More of a return to the pleasant past, before PC's tookover.

Am I the only one who has noticed that (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6371026)

eBay's service isn't very good, and that they run IIS, and that they have a cowardly attitude about items anyone considers offensive? And that they cooperate with the evil government thugs?
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