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Guido van Rossum Leaves Zope.com

timothy posted about 11 years ago | from the happenstance-meeting dept.

Programming 248

VladDrac writes "Guido van Rossum, the author of the Python programming language, announced at OSCON last night that he's leaving zope.com, to work for a new startup called 'Elemental Security', founded by Dan Farmer (known from several security tools such as Satan). Guido leaving Zope.com will also probably mean that he will be no longer involved in Zope3 development, but hopefully he'll have more time to spend on Python development." Guido says that he's excited about his new employer, but that nothing substantial will change about Python as a result of the move. "It's just that I'll be working from the West coast." Python is "already quite secure," he says, and will be the basis of an upcoming security product ("just getting started") from Elemental.

cancel ×

248 comments

His goodbye posting (5, Informative)

VladDrac (15111) | about 11 years ago | (#6400749)

You can read his goodbye posting to the zope3 list here [zope.org]

RACISM is alive and well in Open Source Community (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6400799)

How many people of color are involved in this community. Please name one even one if you can. Why are you so segregated? I am sick and tired of sickly pale unwashed hippie white boys contributing everything! You losers are racially insensitive and in dire need of some diversity training. Torvalds, Stallman, Malda and that fat slob Cowboy Kneel Down and Take It make me sick!

Re:RACISM is alive and well in Open Source Communi (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6401099)

Get back on the boat, Afro-Man!

Re:His goodbye posting (-1)

gdiersing (240179) | about 11 years ago | (#6400805)

Can anyone give me a reason to care about this?

People change jobs all the time, so he created Python - python isn't changing... why do I care how this guys makes his money?

Typo (0, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6400752)

"an (sic) security product"

Please fix

WILDCAT IS ON TEH SPOKE (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6400756)

OMFG have you seen the Halo 2 trailer it's like slow and it's telling you all the stuff you did in the first one then the music kicks in and and the chief comes out and gets a gun the earf is on fire and chief is like fuck this im jumping and HE JUMPS PUT OF TEH SPACESHIP with angels singing and he lands on the bad guys and that annoying ai lady is like GO GET EM TIGER! WILDCAT IS ON TEH SPOKE!!!~`1 and theres less polys but rawkin bumb mappings you can view this on a special MICROSOFT xbox disk that comes with EB games store.

Zope Soap on a Roap (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6400761)

Zope Soap on a Roap

OMFG...HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF!!!! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6400763)

+MONDAY MORNING+
CmdrTaco: I will not suck any more dick ever again.
+MONDAY EVENING+
CmdrTaco: *slurp* *slurp* *slurp*

+TUESDAY MORNING+
CmdrTaco: I will not suck any more dick ever again.
+TUESDAY EVENING+
CmdrTaco: *slurp* *slurp* *slurp*

+WEDNESDAY MORNING+
CmdrTaco: I will not suck any more dick ever again.
+WEDNESDAY EVENING+
CmdrTaco: *slurp* *slurp* *slurp*

+THURSDAY MORNING+
CmdrTaco: I will not suck any more dick ever again.
+THURSDAY EVENING+
CmdrTaco: *slurp* *slurp* *slurp*

+FRIDAY MORNING+
CmdrTaco: I will not suck any more dick ever again.
+FRIDAY EVENING+
CmdrTaco: *slurp* *slurp* *slurp* *slurp*

+SATURDAY MORNING+
CmdrTaco: I will not suck any more dick ever again.
+SATURDAY EVENING+
CmdrTaco: *slurp* *slurp* *slurp*

+SUNDAY MORNING+
CmdrTaco: Today is the Lord's day.
+SUNDAY AFTERNOON+
CmdrTaco: *slurp* *slurp* *slurp*

Re:OMFG...HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF!!!! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6400996)

Why are you trolls so obsessed with gay sex? Is it perhaps because you are GAY!? Yes. I believe so. You are all closeted dicklickers, so you try to cast aspersions on others to avoid suspicion. Just admit that you love cock and you will be a lot happier. Then maybe you won't feel the need to "out" someone who ISN'T gay.

Re:OMFG...HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF!!!! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6401013)

Hi. Let's be buddies... butt buddies.

LINUX Open Source Slashdot are RACIST (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6400765)

Pray tell exactly how many people of color are involved in this community. Please name one if you can. Why are you so segregated? I am sick and tired of sickly pale unwashed hippie white boys contributing everything! You losers are racially insensitive and in dire need of some diversity training. Are you listening MALDA? CMDRTACO? Linux losers rot in a racist hell!

Some documentation to back you up (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6400807)

Re:LINUX Open Source Slashdot are RACIST (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6400888)

Cliff (editor of Ask Slashdot) is an African American.

Re:LINUX Open Source Slashdot are RACIST (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6400914)

Oh? Where in Africa? Maybe he's from Jamaica. Perhaps he's just black.

Re:LINUX Open Source Slashdot are RACIST (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6400967)

The Jamaican blacks were dragged off from Africa just as much as the ones that ended up in the US.

Shut up NAZI! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6401124)

Your anti-semitic comment is not funny. Saying that Jews were responsible for bringing slaves to America is not true.

Re:Shut up NAZI! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6401355)

The French and Dutch were the biggest slave traders. Of course, the Africans themselves did the dirty work of rounding up competing tribes and selling them to the slave traders.

Re:LINUX Open Source Slashdot are RACIST (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6400969)

(Score:-1, Flamebait)
That is funnier than the grandparent's comment.

Re:LINUX Open Source Slashdot are RACIST (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6401282)

don't you mean...a God Damned Nigger?

Good times. (3, Interesting)

Meat Blaster (578650) | about 11 years ago | (#6400769)

No doubt he'll have much more time to dedicate to his programming. Python sounds pretty interesting, and I dug through the BitTorrent source a bit to learn more about it, but it also seems pretty complex for what the end result is (as opposed to, say, Perl.) With a bit of work towards a more logical parse tree/DTD, I could see Python easily surpassing Perl as a strongly-typed effective scripting language.

What other projects are being done in Python?

Re:Good times. (1)

mjmalone (677326) | about 11 years ago | (#6400789)

I read somewhere that parts of google's database search software are written in python... but it was a long time ago so I could be wrong.

Prominently on python.org (5, Informative)

gavri (663286) | about 11 years ago | (#6400832)

"Python has been an important part of Google since the beginning, and remains so as the system grows and evolves. Today dozens of Google engineers use Python, and we're looking for more people with skills in this language." said Peter Norvig, director of search quality at Google, Inc

Re:Prominently on python.org (1, Funny)

Randolpho (628485) | about 11 years ago | (#6400976)

Er.... I know python pretty well. Perhaps I should send my resume? :D

Re:Prominently on python.org (2, Interesting)

MikeFM (12491) | about 11 years ago | (#6401214)

I've tried and I even have friends already working there to use as references. My impression has been that for any kind of fun job there you need a PhD or at least a Masters. Oh well.. we can always dream.

A more interesting project would be to make a search engine that functions as well as Google on a much more modest budget. That's an ongoing game of mine. I figure if I ever succeed maybe they'll hire me finally. ;)

Re:Good times. (2, Interesting)

Maimun (631984) | about 11 years ago | (#6401288)

This is a question, I have little experience with Python and until I finish my thesis that will not change.

I read somewhere in usenet that python is relatively slow, even for interpreted language, and my (extremely limited) experience is the same. A while ago, I did a simple text converter in python as an exercise. Very basic stuff, read from file, check the value of each symbol, change with another value if necessary, write into another file. It was quite slow on texts of moderate size. I mean, if it were in C, the delay would not be noticeable.

However, if google uses it, then python has "industrial strength" and should perform well. I wonder...

Re:Good times. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6401389)

it's possible that, given your "limited experience", you weren't doing things as efficiently as you could - eg using an iterative C approach when a pythonesque approach is better for python.

Surpassing Perl? (1)

gavri (663286) | about 11 years ago | (#6400798)

Excuse me, but that's ruby's job!! :)

Re:Good times. (4, Informative)

dagarath (33684) | about 11 years ago | (#6400852)

The obvious reference to Python Web Site [python.org] will give more information. Python often competes in the same space as perl. But, Python is probably more object oriented than perl. The difference being that python is OO from the ground up as opposed to perl where it was added late. Most of Redhat's installation tools and scripts are written in python. A 3d game a few years ago 'Blade of Darkness' was done with mostly python.

Re:Good times. (5, Informative)

leshert (40509) | about 11 years ago | (#6400925)

A 3d game a few years ago 'Blade of Darkness' was done with mostly python.

There are a few more games that use Python... you might have heard of them:

Re:Good times. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6401049)

eve online [eve-online.com] uses stackless python [stackless.com]

Re:Good times. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6400856)

Many of RedHat's GUI system tools are written in Python. Yahoo also uses Python for it's maps. Python is continually growing. It is simple and easy to learn yet powerful enough to do complex tasks. I'm not sure it will 'surpass' or 'takeover' Perl, but IMO it should be used if you hate reading obfuscated Perl code.

Re:Good times. (0, Troll)

listen (20464) | about 11 years ago | (#6400864)

You have got to be kidding...
Python is *SO* much easier to read than perl.

Neither python or perl are strongly typed, dumbass.

Re:Good times. (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6400885)

I don't know about Perl, but Python is very strongly typed. It is not, however, statically typed.

Re:Good times. (1)

listen (20464) | about 11 years ago | (#6401020)

You can change the type of an object at runtime via .__class__ right?

Re:Good times. (5, Informative)

Ikari Gendo (202183) | about 11 years ago | (#6401101)

Guido seems to disagree. [artima.com]

GvR: In a strongly typed language, when you change to a different data structure, you will likely have to change the argument and return types of many methods that just pass these things on. You may also have to change the number of arguments, because suddenly you pass the information as two or three parts instead of one. In Python, if you change the type of something, most likely pieces of code that only pass that something around and don't use it directly don't have to change at all.

Now you might be splitting hairs and saying that "static" means known at compile time and "strong" means type errors are always detected, but in common parlance "strong typing" includes static typing. For the pedants, there's Sebesta:

...we define a programming language to be strongly typed if type errors are always detected. This requires that the types of all operands can be determined, either at compile time or at run time.

This criterion is met by very few real-world languages. Most imperative and object-oriented languages include type coercion [python.org] which contradicts this property. It is interesting to note that future Python development is moving towards still stronger typing -- and, dare I say it -- functional-style constructs.

Of course, the pragmatic thing to do is to understand strong/weak typing not as binary, but as a continuum. In this case, Haskell is more strongly typed than Ada is more strongly typed than Python is more strongly typed than C++ is more strongly typed than C is more strongly typed than FORTRAN. It looks like Python 3.0 will be moving up the chain, however.

Re:Good times. (0, Offtopic)

hesiod (111176) | about 11 years ago | (#6400896)

> Neither python or perl are strongly typed, dumbass.

While you may be right (I don't know, I have to assume you are), I don't think it's necessary to call him a dumbass. If you're going to insult someone, make it worthwhile, like "Learn what the F*&ck you are talking about before posting, asshat!" :)

Wait wait wait..... (0)

botzi (673768) | about 11 years ago | (#6400932)

... I have a better one:
"You...you...you(obviously having a hard time finding the word)........... moron!!!"
*going out with a smash for the door and a finger for the person*

...or is it too girly??? Well, anyway.....;o))))))

Re:Good times. (5, Interesting)

dtolton (162216) | about 11 years ago | (#6401036)

It is a misconception that Python is not strongly typed. It is strongly typed, it is not *statically* typed.

Python is a stronly typed, dynamically typed, extremely late bound language.

Double check your facts before calling someone else a dumbass.

The difference between a dynamically typed language and a statically typed language is this:
// Java
int myvar = 1;

# Python
myvar = 1

The difference is that the Java compiler assigns a datatype to the location of myvar, but python assigns a datatype to the value held in myvar.

It's a subtle difference, and many python newbies think it's not strongly typed, however that is a mistake.

Re:Good times. (2, Interesting)

pldms (136522) | about 11 years ago | (#6401183)

The difference is that the Java compiler assigns a datatype to the location of myvar, but python assigns a datatype to the value held in myvar.

This is a minor point, but that doesn't show Java is statically typed:

Object myvar = "Hello";

myvar = new Foo();

That would be dynamic, AAUI. So Java has both static and dynamic typing? Or do OO languages just confuse things?

Re:Good times. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6401298)

Java only has static typing. What you are showing
is the ability to use casting to access objects
through their parents in the inheritance tree
(superclasses).

Your example should be:

myvar = (Object)new Foo();

This allows myvar to manipulate the Foo class as
if it is an instance of Object. You will not be
able to access methods of Foo unless they are
inherited from Object.

-Dave

Re:Good times. (1)

Eric Desrosiers (678902) | about 11 years ago | (#6401367)

Type is only relevant to variables not the object they point to. Obviously, an object cannot change type and so are variables in a language with static typing. But with dynamic typing it can.

So in your example, even though myVar holds a string or a Foo, you can only use methods from Object with it because that's it's type. Doing
((Foo)myvar).fooMethod()
does not count because it can be seen as creating a temporary variable of type Foo.

In a dynamicaly typed language, you would only have to write myvar.fooMethod().

Re:Good times. (1)

andrew_j_w (630799) | about 11 years ago | (#6401069)

It would appear that you are the 'dumbass' since Python is most definitely strongly typed.

Try running this command...
python -c 'print "3"+2'
... and you'll get a type error, it won't automatically cast the 123 to "123". You might find this link useful Strong vs Weak typing [artima.com] .

AFAIK Perl is a variant-bound language and as such isn't strongly typed, although I'm no Perl guru so I could be wrong.

Typing...
perl -e 'print "3"+2'
... does result in 5 suggesting that it is indeed weakly typed.

I do agree that Python is much easier to read than Perl :-)

Andrew

Re:Good times. (1)

listen (20464) | about 11 years ago | (#6401209)

So strings are the be and and end all of your "weakly typed languages coerce types" argument?

python:
>>> 2 + 3.0
5.0
>>> type(3)
< type 'int'>
>>> type(3.0)
< type 'float'>
>>>

So ints are coerced to floats in practice in python. Of course in a multi dispatch langauge + could be defined over Float, Int

If you want a real strongly typed language as in all type errors are detected use Haskell or ML.

Re:Good times. (2, Interesting)

Xerithane (13482) | about 11 years ago | (#6401076)

Python is *SO* much easier to read than perl.

I can't properly read blocks unless they are encapsulated in { }, thus I have a really hard time in Python. I'm sure if I spent enough time with it I would be able to figure it out though.

Perl code can be extremely readable though, it just takes a whole lot of work to do it.

Re:Good times. (1)

rhaig (24891) | about 11 years ago | (#6401130)

badly written python is just as hard to read as badly written perl, or C, or Java, or C++, or miranda, or pascal, or basic, or blah blah blah... yada yada yada...

point being, not all perl is obsfucated, and not all python is like reading english.

Re: =You have obviously missed the point (2, Interesting)

botzi (673768) | about 11 years ago | (#6400878)

I could see Python easily surpassing Perl as a strongly-typed effective scripting language.

Which unfortunately has nothing to do with the ideas behind Python.
It tends to be much more than "strongly-typed effective scripting language" and if there was some big corporation promoting it as development platform(not even providing support, the guys from the team are doing really good job) , you can bet that Java would had one more serious competitor to worry about...

Re:Good times. (5, Informative)

rRaminrodt (250095) | about 11 years ago | (#6400909)

Off the top of my head:
Twisted - a web/chat/anything-you-can-name server
Zope - Web Application/CMS type system
bittorrent - you know about that one
Red Hat uses Python in a lot of their scripts (I believe)
NumPy - used for scientific applications (replacing/augmenting Matlab, fortran, etc)
Karamba - KDE desktop eyecandy, written in C++ and scripted with python
and some really bad stuff I've written for my own amusement. :-)

Off course there's more, but I did say off the top of my head and I don't want to cheat. It's really a nice clean language, that really lends itself to prototyping but still can make great apps.

Re:Good times. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6401010)

eroaster, a gtk2 frontend to cdrecord+mkisofs

rubrica, a gtk2 addressbook

emerge from gentoo

quark, quake map editor: http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~quark/

and yes, also quake (similar to q2java): http://barryp.org/software/qwpython

Re:Good times. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6400934)

How is Python "more complex" than Perl?

Or are you just describing "more complex" as "requires more typing"?

What is it you consider 'illogical' about the parse tree?

I am honestly just curious what your thoughts are.

Re:Good times. (4, Informative)

William Tanksley (1752) | about 11 years ago | (#6400989)

Python is actually simpler than Perl -- it's designed to be so. HOWEVER, Perl is also designed to do many specific things very simply, so when you need to do one of those specific things it's the fastest way to get it done -- assuming, of course, that you already knew Perl could do it :-).

I'm a Python fan, but I doubt Python will ever surpass Perl -- especially not by adding a "more logical parse tree", since it already has a very simple, consistent, and logical parse tree whereas Perl has more of a parse forest. Python and Perl are just too different; they compete in many areas, but their real strengths are far enough apart to keep them both viable in each other's presence.

For info on what projects are being done in Python, see the lists at www.python.org (Success Stories [pythonology.org] , Python Users [python.org] , and Python Projects [python.org] )).

Remarkable language, Python. Lovely plumage!

-Billy

Re:Good times. (1)

Tyler Eaves (344284) | about 11 years ago | (#6401151)

Quote: I'm a Python fan, but I doubt Python will ever surpass Perl -- especially not by adding a "more logical parse tree", since it already has a very simple, consistent, and logical parse tree whereas Perl has more of a parse forest.

Oh, WOW! What a quote ;)

Who else thought (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6400774)

that someone was leaving zombo.com ?

I was sad

Security... (1)

Kai_MH (632216) | about 11 years ago | (#6400779)

I'm not a big fan of Python, but I'm glad he's moving to a security group. The guy is close to being a genius, so let's hope they get some good stuff out.

Guido's goodbye message (4, Informative)

pen (7191) | about 11 years ago | (#6400788)

http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope3-dev/2003-July /007598.html [zope.org]

Guido van Rossum guido@python.org
Wed, 09 Jul 2003 10:24:54 -0400

Dear Zope 3 developers,

Last night at OSCON I announced that I am moving to California. I
have accepted a new job at Elemental Security, a security software
startup in San Mateo. You may have heard of one of the founders, Dan
Farmer, who is the (co-)author of several well-known free security
checking programs: Satan, Titan and The Coroner's Toolkit.

Elemental is a brand new company, and I can't say much yet about the
product, except that it will be aimed at enterprise security and use
Python. I'm very excited about working with Dan on its design and
implementation.

I'm also excited about moving to California, which has long been a
dream of mine. I'm looking forward to getting together with the many
local Python users and developers once I'm settled; right now, my life
and that if my family is total chaos because we're trying to find a
home and move into it by August 1st.

I will still have time for Python (it's in my contract) and I will
continue to lead Python's development. The other PythonLabs folks:
Fred Drake, Jeremy Hylton, Barry Warsaw and Tim Peters, are staying at
Zope, by the way.

But unfortunately, this move pretty much ends my involvement in Zope
3. I've signed a contributors agreement, but with the new job and my
Python work I don't expect to have much time for Zope. So this is
also a goodbye, of sorts. I've enjoyed working with many of you, Zope
3 developers, and I expect we'll run into each other at some future
Python event.

In the mean time, I'm here at OSCON with a busy schedule and limited
access to my email, and the following weeks I will be in transition,
so please be kind if I don't reply immediate when you write me.

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

PS. guido@zope.com no longer works. Please use guido@python.org!

Re:Guido's goodbye message (2, Funny)

jo42 (227475) | about 11 years ago | (#6400959)

Oh, good, almost thought that Guido "The Killer Pimp" was leaving the business...whew!

Something fishy in his goodbye message (0)

Coventry (3779) | about 11 years ago | (#6401072)

PS. guido@zope.com no longer works. Please use guido@python.org!

If he was leaving on good terms with Zope corp (ex digicool), then why the sudden switch in email adr? I know, big corps cut you off the second they can when you leave, but not even forwarding his mail smells fishy - like there was some kind of falling out or disagreement behind the scenes.

Yes, I'm a paranoid freak, but there is more potential evidence in his goodbye - he never thanks Zope corp for his time there and thier support. In fact, except for saying that the rest of the PythonLabs people are staying, he never mentions Zope corp (though he does mention Zope the project many times). This could just be due to limited time and his forward-looking nature, but it just reads oddly to me...

Re:Something fishy in his goodbye message (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6401117)

Yes, Guido is leaving on good terms. There is no conspiracy here, he just wanted to move to California. I'm sure his email won't just bounce, but this is his way of saying, please don't use it any more. He prefers his python.org address.

Re:Something fishy in his goodbye message (1)

Coventry (3779) | about 11 years ago | (#6401186)

This makes me feel much much better - I think the suddeness of the anouncement (for those of us who don't know the behind-the-scenes goings-on)triggered my conspiracy alarm.

Re:Something fishy in his goodbye message (1)

umoto (19193) | about 11 years ago | (#6401359)

No, there is certainly no disagreement behind the scenes. Guido sent a private announcement to an internal list. He expressed much appreciation for Zope corp. and everyone here.

He's only changing his email address because he no longer works here. His email will probably be forwarded anyway.

Jumping WAY OT (1)

mhesseltine (541806) | about 11 years ago | (#6401323)

About your sig: how does bash.cx relate to bash.org?

"Python is 'already quite secure,'" (4, Funny)

TheGreenLantern (537864) | about 11 years ago | (#6400800)

That sound you are hearing is a thousand hackers and script kiddies going "Oh yeah?" in unison.

Re:"Python is 'already quite secure,'" (2, Insightful)

DeltaSigma (583342) | about 11 years ago | (#6400820)

It sounded more like 5% hackers going "Oh yeah?" and 95% script kiddies scratching their heads...

Re:"Python is 'already quite secure,'" (1)

notque (636838) | about 11 years ago | (#6400876)

That sound you are hearing is a thousand hackers and script kiddies going "Oh yeah?" in unison.

No, That's this. [cnn.com]

Re:"Python is 'already quite secure,'" (3, Insightful)

Just Some Guy (3352) | about 11 years ago | (#6400956)

I think he was referring to its existence, not any inherent invulnerability. As in, it's firmly entrenched and will continue to be developed.

Re:"Python is 'already quite secure,'" (3, Interesting)

Pxtl (151020) | about 11 years ago | (#6401379)

Hell, I'm a Python coder, and I'm already going "oh yeah"

IMHO, it won't be secure until they bring back Bastion and Rexec and get them right this time. Actually, all I want is to be able to remove all the builtins that access the system directly (so Python can't crash your computer, delete files, or otherwise access the filesystem) - but while the language and API documentation is pretty good, the compiler variables are wholly unkown.

Guido. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6400809)

Wop.

Dego.

GOOMBAH GUINEA GREASER SICILIAN_NIGGER (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6400997)

Stay! (2, Funny)

blackmonday (607916) | about 11 years ago | (#6400810)

..known from several security tools such as Satan ..."I'll be working from the West coast".

Please, stay where you are, sir. We have enough problems out here already.

His Website (1, Redundant)

Captal (687904) | about 11 years ago | (#6400813)

Here is his personal website:

http://www.python.org/~guido/

Who names this stuff? (4, Funny)

Laur (673497) | about 11 years ago | (#6400814)

We have the Yopy 3700 [slashdot.org] and now someone's leaving Zope.com. Has Disney been put in charge of naming things lately? Try the new Dopey 2003(C)!

Assistance needed (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6400816)

Greetings,

We need a vendor who can offer immediate supply.
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Bah, who cares. Perl is better (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6400828)

Friends don't let friends code Python

possible improvements to python? (0, Troll)

PhysicsExpert (665793) | about 11 years ago | (#6400830)

Hopefully the job change will allow him to concentrate a bit more on python, its a great language that we in the lab are using to replace all our old apps that were written in VB and java.

One thing I would like to see would be python to become even more object oriented which would give it greater flexibility and would mean that the code would not be so long (our Vb code is about 2-3x shorter than the python code). Perhaps they could do this by borrowing a few tips from perl, which although slower has code that looks much neater.

Please mod parent down (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6400898)

Just in case you didn't realize it, the parent post is a troll.

Thank you.

Re:possible improvements to python? (3, Interesting)

vivek7006 (585218) | about 11 years ago | (#6400921)

"Perhaps they could do this by borrowing a few tips from perl, which although slower has code that looks much neater."

Perl code looks much neater than Python?
Are u nuts?

One of the strong points of Python language is its clean and intuitive syntax. Perl is a very powerful language, but its strong point is *NOT* neat syntax.

Re:possible improvements to python? (2, Informative)

Zathrus (232140) | about 11 years ago | (#6400987)

PhysicsGenius is a known troll... and it's amusing to see just how many moderators get caught by him. All of his posts have just enough in them to sound intelligent, but they're all very deeply wrong -- usually twisting the facts backwards (such as this one) or flying off into realms of thought usually reserved for the insane.

Maybe some moderators with a clue will beat the grandparent post down now.

On topic - I've known Perl for awhile and am starting to code in Python... the syntax is certainly cleaner, but the docs certainly aren't. To put it kindly, they suck. Yes, if I was sufficiently motivated then I could contribute instead of just bitching, but: A) I'm not, B) I don't know nearly enough Python yet to do it right. I find Perl's documentation to be layed out in a much more rational and useful structure. Shrug.

Re:possible improvements to python? (4, Interesting)

Jason Earl (1894) | about 11 years ago | (#6401166)

That's funny. I switched from Perl to Python several years ago and one of the things that I like best about Python is the documentation. Perl's Camel book made a pretty fair reference, but I didn't really like busting out a hard-copy book every time I wanted to look something up. The electronic Perl documentation was pretty nice, but it wasn't quite as comprehensive as the Camel book, and the POD format simply can't compete with Python's documentation. The PDF and HTML formats are nice, but I really like the fact that the Python documentation is available in info format for easy reading in Emacs (complete with a comprehensive index). The indexes in Python's electronic documentation really make a heck of a difference once you start using them. Perl's pile o' man pages simply can't touch Python in this regard (IMHO).

Perl's TIMTOWTDI style means that every time you edit someone else's Perl code you will encounter four or five new Perlisms that you have never seen and that require the Camel book for deciphering. When I was hacking Perl, that meant carring around the Camel book in my laptop bag "just in case." With Python that's no longer a problem.

My guess is that you have gotten use to the structure of Perl's documentation. You know where to find Perl information, and are simply frustrated by the fact that Python requires that you start from scratch with a new set of documentation.

On the other hand, it is possible that we simply have different documentation requirements. What precisely is the problem? "They suck," is not particularly descriptive.

Re:possible improvements to python? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6401110)

Are u nuts?
U must $be a prl.prgrmr 2'

Re:possible improvements to python? (2, Interesting)

William Tanksley (1752) | about 11 years ago | (#6400947)

Could you clarify what you mean? Python is already fully object-oriented (although it doesn't _force_ you to write object-oriented code, but then neither does VB).

And are you joking about Perl? Perl is widely known for having MUCH messier-looking code than Python, but running slightly faster on certain tasks.

-Billy

Re:possible improvements to python? (2, Informative)

mjsiley (590026) | about 11 years ago | (#6400977)

Python _is_ more object oriented then VB. VB6 is object based, since there is no inheritence. (and python supports single and multiple inheritance) Perl neater then Python? I love both languages but Python programs are amazingly more readable then Perl programs. Perl slower then Python? not in my experience. They are really close in performance. see, http://www.bagley.org/~doug/shootout/ And have you done OO in Perl? compared to Python it's a pain. VB code 2-3x shorter then the Python version? I've had the exact opposite experience and usually the Python version is 5-10x shorter then the VB version.

Re:possible improvements to python? (0, Offtopic)

Dr. Smeegee (41653) | about 11 years ago | (#6401185)

My Gh0d you can troll! You are subtle like Fu Manchu, erudite like Christopher Hitchens and a real smart feller, besides.


Always nice to have your brain leave skidmarks



G'bye. Good riddens. (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6400849)

Python is crap. At least use a language that isn't indent dependent, where a tab and 8 spaces can be interpreted as two different code blocks.

At least code in a decent language.

I should read more carefully... (0, Funny)

H0NGK0NGPH00EY (210370) | about 11 years ago | (#6400857)

...I was rather confused for a moment how a story on zombo.com [zombo.com] would make /. front page.

Interesting (-1, Troll)

Mensa Babe (675349) | about 11 years ago | (#6400859)

It is very interesting. I wonder if this decision had anything to do with the recent moves in Parrot development.

troller alert (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6401086)

check out her list of foes. quite an amazing tally for a relative newbie.

Re:Interesting (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6401137)

Karma: Positive (probably because of superiour intellect

Not from superior spelling, then?

How instrumental was he to zope? (3, Interesting)

nurb432 (527695) | about 11 years ago | (#6400924)

With python there is no question his importance, 'with out Guido there is no python'.. ( thankfully that wont change, that would be a tremendous loss to the community )

What his is level of involvement with zope? Does this spell a slow painful death or just a minor speed bump.. ( I admit I don't follow *new* zope development so I'm just curious )

and in other news (1, Funny)

British (51765) | about 11 years ago | (#6400926)

David Finkelstein has announced he is leaving McDonald's to work at Subway.

Elemental Security (2, Funny)

Call Me Black Cloud (616282) | about 11 years ago | (#6400929)

Great! I've been hoarding oxygen and have become increasingly concerned that my neighbors may try to liberate it. Damn free radicals.

Python sucks (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6400963)

-1, flamebait

Python sucks absolute dog cocks! Why do I am forced to use tabs and spaces. Without them I can uses more elegent and faster code. I hope all these n00b programmers using python come to their senses and USE a REAL language such as c++ and perl. Both elegant and faster. tabs and paces optional

IN THE INTEREST OF FREEDOM... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6401021)

I have renamed my cat to GNU/cat. For freedom.

FUCKING AMERICAN (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6401035)

Yankee. Bastard. Piece of Shit. I want Your balls smashed. Eat shit. You're all going to die of cancer, I promise you.

Fucking American. I hope someone in your family dies soon.

New light shed on Bill Gates, Microsoft and SCO (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6401079)

It's been a long time coming and a lot of us in the OSS community were aware that this was always a possibility. I post this anonymously to avoid endangering my reputation at my company. Today, we just got a memo from the CEO of our firm. Starting next Monday, all open source software that we use and any development taking place using open source tools (this includes GNU tools) must be removed and all OSS related projects will cease. The CEO got a "tip" from some of our stockholders that Microsoft and SCO are working out a partnership that may make it next to impossible to use open source/free software without violating some new clauses in the MS EULA. In addition, Microsoft is planning to help SCO out in much the same way that they helped Apple. These two "facts" combined made our CEO very uncertain about the future of open source and to hedge all bets, he felt it in the stockholder's best interests to disassociate ourselves from OSS/Free.

I heartily disagree with his position, but since I am not the CEO I can't change it. Personally, I think he's fallen victim to FUD. From what we've all seen, SCO doesn't have a prayer of getting anything out of this lawsuit with IBM. And they definitely have no way to tell people that they can't use OSS/Free software. But, from a business perspective, the CEO probably has no choice.

Further "rumours" I heard from the folks upstairs are that Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer have been working pretty closely with SCO and Darl McBride on this suit. Originally, it was just supposed to cast Linux in a negative light. But now they supposedly have an opportunity to permanently displace Linux in the business world through some new EULA clauses that are going to be tightly related to the licensing that MS bought from SCO. Hopefully, all this rumour will amount to is just water cooler talk. Again, I can't see how MS could legally make a EULA that would affect competitors in such an obvious way and not get pulled back into court for anti-trust violations.

But, just in case this is all true, we need to prepare ourselves for the ultimately bad scenario and find a way to keep free computing alive even in the face of all the adversity it may encounter in the near future. Forget about the desktop, this is now about survival and the human right to software access.

What we don't need in California ... (5, Funny)

Chromodromic (668389) | about 11 years ago | (#6401114)

... is yet another guy named "Guido" wanting everyone to admire his "Python".

SoCal is the land of double entendre and uber-image, Mr. Van Rossum. We don't care about your substance, we want to know about your style. So the question the really needs to be answered now is,

Python: Is It Sexy Enough? Join us on E! when we ask your favorite celebs just what scripting language they use for their daily information processing! We know Pamela Anderson loves Perl, and Carmen Daily is crazy about Java, but what happens when these two sexy stars get their hands on Python? Watch at 11 and find out!

My Network security... (4, Funny)

Lord_Slepnir (585350) | about 11 years ago | (#6401169)

known from several security tools such as Satan

I tried satan for my network security. Cost me my soul, but it's damn good. One kid tried to hack around our proxy to play games at work, and he got engulfed in flame and dragged down to the 3rd layer of hell for the rest of the day! Sure, I have to use a massive water cooling system to keep the firewall (and I mean a wall of fire that I run the ethernet cable through) from melting the other servers, but when the dark lord is watching your back, you don't even have to think twice about security.

Quite secure, eh? Not according to Guido. (4, Informative)

Whip-hero (308110) | about 11 years ago | (#6401233)

Python is "already quite secure," he says, and will be the basis of an upcoming security product ("just getting started") from Elemental.

I'd like to point out a thread that I found a little while back on Python-Dev about Guido's decision to remove the rexec module (similar to the Java sandbox):

posting 1 [python.org]

and Guido's reply:

posting 2 [python.org]

A little bit further down that thread we find this:

posting 3 [python.org]

Since this last one is particularly telling, I will quote the relevant text for our impatient readers:

I think Guido's rationale for removing all these features will be widely misunderstood. Me channeling him: it is not that he believes that the architectures developed were inherently incapable of providing security. Instead, he feels that no "expert" for these matters has reviewed these architecture for flaws, and that the continuing maintenance of these things isn't going to happen.

If this understanding is correct, then any new approaches will likely suffer from the same fate. Unless somebody steps forward and says: "I am a security expert, and I guarantee that this and that feature is secure (in some documented sense)", then I think he will dislike any changes that mean to provide security.

So this not a matter of engineering but of authority. Somebody must take the blame, and Guido doesn't want to be that someone.

Disclaimer: I love python. However, I am working on a project that depends on rexec, and when I discovered that it was being removed, I was a little annoyed - especially at the reasoning behind the decision.

Re:Quite secure, eh? Not according to Guido. (1)

DavidNWelton (142216) | about 11 years ago | (#6401365)

As an aside, Tcl has a very nice sandbox that is secure and has been for a while. Check it out:-)

Least ugly? (4, Funny)

Dr. Smeegee (41653) | about 11 years ago | (#6401234)

Looking at Guido's Home Page [python.org] I noticed that his picture shows a clean, healthy looking guy with all his hair.
I hereby cast my vote for Guido VanRossum for Least Ugly Open-Source Project Leader.

A shame (5, Informative)

GeorgeH (5469) | about 11 years ago | (#6401249)

Zope is a very cool web application system, and while I don't know of Guido's specific contributions I have to assume that they were great. Still, I'm confidant that Zope will carry on.

For those not familiar with Zope, it is a web application server written entirely in Python. It features an object database that, for example, lets you create an image object, and then call it from other code to automatically build your image tag based on the dimensions and title of the image stored in the object.

It's open source, developed both by the Zope community [zope.org] and the Zope corporation [zope.com] . There are at least two kick ass, open source content management systems built on top of Zope Corp's content management framework [zope.org] that I know of: Plone [plone.org] and Silva [infrae.nl] . There are a ton of add-on products [zope.org] that are downloadable too.

Zope does have a pretty steep learning curve, if you don't do stuff with "real" web applications (stuff that needs access control lists, user management, templating, etc) it might not be right for you, but it's great for bigger applications. Edd Dumbill talks in a recent blog entry about why Zope is worth learning [usefulinc.com] and DevShed (which runs on Zope) has a good overview [devshed.com] .

Guido and Dan Farmer are both smart guys and I'm sure that we can expect good things.

I hope it's not another BeOpen (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#6401294)

I hope it's not another stupid mistake like joining BeOpen.com at the height of the dot-com frenzy. No one knows Elemental's business model, but I would expect it is less fanciful than BeOpen's idea to sell advertisements to open source developers. I would bet the other PythonLabs team are not joining because they don't want to get stung again.

Then again, it could also be seen as a statement about Zope's (the company, not the technology) viability, or, alternatively, about the resurgent health of the startup world.

Whatever the case, best of luck Mr. Rossum.
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