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DVD Player With DVI Output

timothy posted more than 10 years ago | from the firewire-would-be-nice-too dept.

Television 355

ffierling writes "Why are there no big name DVD Players with digital video outputs? With all the available digital displays (LCD, plasma, DLP, etc) and the obvious benefits of an all-digital connection, it's easy to conclude the threat of litigation from copyright holders is holding up the big name manufacturers. So how is it V Inc. can sell their Bravo D1 DVD Player with DVI output? Are they below the MPAA's radar, or just quicker to market?"

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355 comments

GNAA Releases world's first DVI output DVD player (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6495824)

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GNAA sucks donkey dong. WTFAA rules! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6495842)

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WTFAA Is Lame--Join BPAA Instead! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6495864)

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Re:GNAA sucks donkey dong. WTFAA rules! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6495882)

Dude that was pretty weak.

sweet (3, Informative)

squarefish (561836) | more than 10 years ago | (#6495828)

and it's only $199. very nice!

Re:sweet (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6495935)

Not when you can get a decent progressive scan capable player for $100.

DVI is nice and all for the likes of viewing your PC on your TV, but for the source most people will never be able to tell the difference between DVI and component video.

Re:sweet (1)

strictnein (318940) | more than 10 years ago | (#6496042)

DVI is nice and all for the likes of viewing your PC on your TV

I was under the (incorrect?) impression that the DVI interface on most TVs (like my sony widescreen projection) was not compatible with the DVI interface on most video cards (my Radeon 9700 Pro with DVI and VGA for instance).

I would like to be wrong on this, but I tried everything I could think of and could not get the two to connect.

Re:sweet (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6496005)

I dont see what the MPAA has to do with DVD players w/ DVI output. Are they just afraid that i'll be watching American Psycho on my new 23" Apple Cinema Display?

Forgive (2, Interesting)

desenz (687520) | more than 10 years ago | (#6495836)

The ignorance, But why is that such a bad thing for the movie companies? Are they worried someone will use the signal from the DVD player to rip it?

Re:Forgive (-1, Offtopic)

steevo.com (312621) | more than 10 years ago | (#6495846)

Yes.

You are forgiven.

Re:Forgive (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6495884)

That's retarded, think about it, WE CAN ALREADY RIP THE BITS STRAIGHT FROM THE DISK, surely that is better than ANY rip you could make from ANY cable EVER.

My prediction (2, Insightful)

$calar (590356) | more than 10 years ago | (#6495877)

Get it while it lasts, whatever your motive is, because it is only time before this becomes controversial. I'm surprised that the company is willing to risk it. I'm sure the EFF is on their side, which is a great thing.

Re:My prediction (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6495973)

Why?

The jin is already out of the bottle so to speak. There is no reason to go to the trouble of inventing a device to capture DVI when you can just stick the DVD in your computer.

Re:My prediction (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6496013)

Whoever goes after them is retarded.. pirating dvds is so easy, just need a DVD Player and a freeware DVD ripping app. Wouldn't ripped DVDs from DVI take longer and cost more? No ones going to pirate from DVI, they already use PCs for that.

Re:My prediction (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6496027)

Was this a machine-generated response?

I see no original content here.

Re:Forgive (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6495912)

Mostly likely, but too fucking bad for stupids.
Besides, you can just rip the damn disc anyway regardless of what pathetic attempt they make to "secure" it.

because (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6495837)

big name companies want to make money. they do this by making products that everyone can use... of course they can ADD this to their devices - but that costs money. besides, S video and current standards don't degrade the quality very much, if not at all.

My mac has DVI output already. (4, Informative)

goombah99 (560566) | more than 10 years ago | (#6495926)

I use a projection (dlp) video system. I can play my DVD movies either as DVI, VGA (RGB) or as S-video using my mac powerbook the s-video has the resolution of a VCR or ordinary television. But the VGA output is massively better, roughly 8 to 16 times the independent pixel density (4 X spatially and 2x in time and another 2x for truly independent pixels). Unfortunately I cant use the DVI out becaue my lowly projector does not have DVI input.

However even if it did I dont expect the result to be much superior than the analog RGB VGA output for the simple reason that the DVD disk doesn't have any more info than that.

for example if you try to play a dvd on an XGA or SXGA system it looks WORSE(!) than on the lower resoultion SVGA. the reason is very simple , the dvd has to interpolate the pixels and does a bad job when the image is changing quickly. SVGA is optimal for DVD , and XGA is optimal for HDTV.

Re:My mac has DVI output already. (2, Informative)

PetWolverine (638111) | more than 10 years ago | (#6496146)

However even if it did I dont expect the result to be much superior than the analog RGB VGA output for the simple reason that the DVD disk doesn't have any more info than that.

The point of the digital connection is not that it transmits more information, but that it loses less information during the transfer. Analog signals degrade over the length of a cable. In fact, the more information is being sent, the faster it degrades, which may be why XGA looked worse on your projector than SVGA.

Re:My mac has DVI output already. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6496147)

Some people can still see the redraw caused by imperfect clock synchronization from connecting a vga cable into a digital display. I've only seen this with LCD monitors (my POS flickered no matter how I adjusted it until I got a card with DVI-out), but it's conceivable that it could happen with your projector too. Some people are just unaffected and some displays just don't show it.

DVI has copy protection (3, Informative)

molo (94384) | more than 10 years ago | (#6495845)

Fool! DVI is an encrypted data stream!

See this PDF for more information:

[ddwg.org]
http://www.ddwg.org/if/data/0830991.pdf

-molo

Re:DVI has copy protection (1, Funny)

tomstdenis (446163) | more than 10 years ago | (#6495879)

Um DVI == Device something with V, independent format. Used as intermediate for TeX. I use it to edit my Textbook all the time!

Tom

Re:DVI has copy protection (0, Offtopic)

tomstdenis (446163) | more than 10 years ago | (#6495952)

um... how was that flamebait? It was offtopic if anything.

I think a good requisit is that the moderators pass a simple English test were they have to pick the best definition for each moderation setting.

Like the GNAA dudes are *not* insightful. First Post things are not underated, etc...

Re:DVI has copy protection (1)

keesh (202812) | more than 10 years ago | (#6496021)

Well, really, there should be a clueless moderation for the likes of your post. We're talking about a different DVI here (no, not Difference Vegetation Index either).

Re:DVI has copy protection (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6496043)

"I think a good requisit is that the moderators pass a simple English test were they have to pick the best definition for each moderation setting."

That's real funny coming from you, English Professor Tom.

Re:DVI has copy protection (1)

amanpatelhotmail.com (604171) | more than 10 years ago | (#6495898)

Well your post stems the obvious question: Will the DVD players like these support encryption (so as to please copyright holders)?

Re:DVI has copy protection (5, Informative)

dschuetz (10924) | more than 10 years ago | (#6495975)

Fool! DVI is an encrypted data stream!

Fool! DVI is an all-digital video connection standard, that supports optional encryption! (well mostly all-digital, if you ignore the optional analog compatibility connection)

(though I will agree that most likely any DVD player supporting DVI will be using encryption).

I think it's called HDCP, or High Defintion Copy Protection, or somesuch.

More interesting is a DVD player that up-converts to 1080i -- I've read conflicting reports on whether those are "allowed" by the DVD manufacturer's agreement. But get that, and support for the MS (ugh) HDTV-lite codec (like on the new T2 disc) and you're in busines. Sort of.

Re:DVI has copy protection (4, Informative)

InsaneGeek (175763) | more than 10 years ago | (#6495992)

Technically, just because DVI's involved doesn't mean that it's encrypted. When it's boiled down, DVI isn't encrypted it's the medium the encryption (HDCP) travels on, almost like SSL travels on ethernet.

Re:DVI has copy protection (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6496033)

It says in the review that the output is encrypted.

Re:DVI has copy protection (2, Informative)

Jeff DeMaagd (2015) | more than 10 years ago | (#6495997)

From what I've seen, the Bravo doesn't implement HDCP on Macrovision signal, or anything for that matter. It technically should though but that break compatibility with a lot of things.

Macrovision? Pshaw. (4, Interesting)

Speare (84249) | more than 10 years ago | (#6495848)

When this thing is offered in the USA with Macrovision disabled, all regions playable at any time, and no forced chapters, then I'll whip out my VISA and buy one. But not until then.

Re:Macrovision? Pshaw. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6495907)

Better buy some more VHS head cleaner tapes before they run out...

Re:Macrovision? Pshaw. (1)

qwertyatwork (668720) | more than 10 years ago | (#6496095)

Why let them tell you what to get? Do some home work, go buy a dvd player and hack the hell out of it. Regions? To quote the great philospher Nelson of The Simpsons... haha!

Re:Macrovision? Pshaw. (1)

illumin8 (148082) | more than 10 years ago | (#6496120)

When this thing is offered in the USA with Macrovision disabled, all regions playable at any time, and no forced chapters, then I'll whip out my VISA and buy one. But not until then.

If you're worried about Macrovision then this product isn't for you. Macrovision only affects analog outputs. Why would you pay extra for a DVD player with DVI output if your TV doesn't have DVI input capability?

Nice Ad (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6495851)

no text

I have one (5, Funny)

Jardine (398197) | more than 10 years ago | (#6495855)

I have a DVD player with DVI out. The fan is a little noisy and the case is kind of ugly. Also I don't have anything with DVI in.

Market Demand (4, Funny)

evil_roy (241455) | more than 10 years ago | (#6495858)

As usual, Homer says it best.

"I'm a White male, age 18 to 49. Everyone listens to me, no matter how dumb my suggestions are." -Homer eating Nuts 'n' Gum

If the market demands it, the features will be there.

Re:Market Demand (4, Insightful)

BiggerIsBetter (682164) | more than 10 years ago | (#6495945)

No, that's the problem with cartels like the MPAA. People with often accept "good enough" if their preferred features are too hard.

MPAA makes it too hard for consumers to get region free DVD players (yes Geek Boy, your PC will do it just fine with DeCSS), and even out-of-region DVDs are very hard to find off the shelf, due to their strongarm tactics against stores renting them. Most folks will just go and rent something in-zone from their local, and play it on the DVD player they bought locally too.

I think your free-market faith is a little misplaced. Traditional market forces don't really apply when the market is essentially controlled by one supplier.

Re:Market Demand (1)

AndyChrist (161262) | more than 10 years ago | (#6496048)

The market is only SLIGHTLY more intelligent than evolution. Sure, manufacturers may occasionally find, on purpose, some non-obvious market. But mainly they just float stuff seemingly at random and if the market demands it it just doesn't go away.

www.yourmom.com (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6495859)

Your mom is so ugly; she put her face up to a retinal scanner and got ERROR: INVALID MEDIA

More gems like that here [yourmom.com]

Are they below the MPAA's radar? (4, Insightful)

BiggerIsBetter (682164) | more than 10 years ago | (#6495860)

Not anymore...

Re:Are they below the MPAA's radar? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6496117)

you gotta be shitting me! this fucker puts two words in his post and gets a +5 insightful? What the fuck is that all about? Not anymore? not anymore? what the fuck is that? fuck this moderation process, and fuck the moderators who gifted this shit.

Submitter does not understand the subject. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6495862)

Sadly the story submitter chooses to get a quick karma-whore submission in before engaging his brain.

DVI can be no more "digital" than composite or s-video. If you're thinking of recording the output from this player via DVI and expecting magical bit-perfect copies of your DVD, think again.

Re:Submitter does not understand the subject. (1)

David_Bloom (578245) | more than 10 years ago | (#6495941)

I don't understand. Composite and S-Video are analog, and DVI outputs digital and analog versions of the image (the analog is for if you plug in a DVI-->VGA adapter). Anyway, you can't record from DVI, since it's output is encrypted :-\.

Re:Submitter does not understand the subject. (4, Interesting)

bigdavex (155746) | more than 10 years ago | (#6495946)


DVI can be no more "digital" than composite or s-video.

Sorry, go fish.
The DVI standard includes a digital mode and this player is using it.

Thief (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6495863)

If you weren't too busy stealing movies, music, and software, maybe you could find something better to do with your life than look for a way to get a perfect copy of the movies you are trying to steal. Here's an idea : How about moving out of your parent's basement, and getting a real job? Maybe someday you can actually have sex with a living, breathing, *biped* (of the OPPOSITE sex)! ... Nah... That's asking too much.

Re:Thief (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6495934)

Huh, so women are turned on by guys who enage in petty acts of verbal abuse. Good to know...

Another Review (5, Informative)

NeoMoose (626691) | more than 10 years ago | (#6495865)

If you pick up last month's Official Xbox Magazine they did a review and gave it a 9.0 out of 10 score. Apparently they loved it. If you want more information on it, track down someone with the magazine.

The main problem I have with this DVD player is that it DOESN'T seem to be available in many, if any, retail outlets.

So... how much does Slashdot get off each sale? (1, Offtopic)

spectecjr (31235) | more than 10 years ago | (#6495867)

Or is this just a strict pay-one-time only advertisement?

Re:So... how much does Slashdot get off each sale? (1)

ShadeARG (306487) | more than 10 years ago | (#6496015)

Slashdot: We've finally found the second step to the ??? profit equation.. muhahaha!

specticjr: So... how much does Slashdot get off each sale? Or is this just a strict pay-one-time only advertisement?

Slashdot: Oh shit.. they discovered our secret formula.. retreat!

Lay off it already (1)

DigiShaman (671371) | more than 10 years ago | (#6496040)

So, do you want to pay for the bandwidth to host Slashdot? There is nothing wrong with recooping your losses. It's not like Slashdot is whoreing out products and advertisements through every topic that's posted.

Re:Lay off it already (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6496106)

It was a simple question. Is it "whored out" with a lump sum of cash, or by percentage of sales; and how much did it cost. You imply too much. BTW, Slashdot is "whored out" enough by ads, subscriptions, and partners. I'm sure that revenue generator cranks in quite enough dough for the operation, the rest is just icing and pie.

Re:Lay off it already (2, Funny)

nomadic (141991) | more than 10 years ago | (#6496129)

Yeah, they're not like that godawful amazon search engine. EVERYTIME I try to search for something it tries to sell me stuff.

Re:So... how much does Slashdot get off each sale? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6496130)

You're right. Slashdot should avoid any apparent bias. That means no more talking about products which companies might sell. There's always at least some chance it could be planted.

There's also always some chance that you're hallucinating and slashdot is just a well formatted consistent dream. Which would mean even your fantasies have sold out. i.e. Take off the tinfoil beanie, the corporations have already conquered your subconscious!

Just another excuse... (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6495869)

for Monster to sell yet another overpriced cable. Have a tough time believing they will come bundled...

DVD never is HD, so no issues with copy protection (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6495872)

No copy protection issue here, because current DVD players cannot produce high definition video.

maybe (2, Insightful)

ArchieBunker (132337) | more than 10 years ago | (#6495875)

because I want to watch movies on a 35" tv and not a 17" LCD thats comparable in price to a 93 honda civic.

Re:maybe (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6495930)

Most HDTVs today include DVI inputs. LCDs are not the only display devices to use DVI.

Re:maybe (1)

sasami (158671) | more than 10 years ago | (#6496066)

because I want to watch movies on a 35" tv and not a 17" LCD

Actually, I want to watch movies on my 120" LCD digital projector [projectorcentral.com] that, incidentally, costs less than a low-end HDTV.

--
Dum de dum.

Re:maybe (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6496100)

Actually, I want to watch movies on my 120" LCD digital projector that, incidentally, costs less than a low-end HDTV.

Projector, check. Surround sound system, Check. Expensive screen, check. Theater seating and popcorn, check. Tons of money spent renovating the basement to watch MPAA produced movies on DVD, check!

SDI hacks (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6495878)

There are additional boards [www.jvb.nl] available to hack most decent DVD's players so they output SDI, which is a raw professional 270Mbps standard for digital interconnects. Most broadcast quality Plasma screens include an SDI input, and companies like Delphi [electrographdelphi.co.uk] produce them for the consumer market, and I've seen DVB-s digital tv set-top-boxes also hacked for SDI output, they look very good since the needless D>A>D process is removed.

Other DVI Players (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6495881)

Not true - Samsung has the DVD-HD931 which has been out on the market for a few months now. It has DVI output.

The Bravo D1 is better, but hey.

Expect other large consumer electronics manufacturers to have their models out within a few months.

1920x1080??? (0, Interesting)

tomstdenis (446163) | more than 10 years ago | (#6495902)

Hmm... DVDs are 720x480, tv's are like 640x480....

forward thinking bastards.

Why don't they just stop all the chinanigans and stop to make a device that does 640x480 through say 2048x1536 or something. If you need more than that many pixels to enjoy plotless drivel you might as well go join a militia and blow up shit for real.

Instead no, people will make crappy incremental updates. Call it "new and improved" and sell the thing for 200$ more than the previous.

Bullshit. My digital cameral can already capture 2048x1536. You think people can make a TV to display it!

Tom

Because game consoles couldn't keep up! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6495959)

Those graphic artists that help make PS2 games would actually have to start putting in detail.

Of course you could always go see a real movie. Pretty impressive resolution. Bah.

Re:Because game consoles couldn't keep up! (1)

tomstdenis (446163) | more than 10 years ago | (#6495984)

PS2 games are good enough for the purpose. I mean when I play GTAVC [which rocks, has many funny bugs in it too] I could care less if there are 3.4M pexels on the guys face. Provided I can make out the objects [re not distractingly unrealistic] I could care less.

Though the lens flare from the sun is a nice touch you have to admit.

Funny tricks in the game [totally OT]

1. In a motorcycle [not the hog or dirt bike]. Slow down near a wall, then open throttle and lean back. You can do a cartwheel off the wall and not fall off.

2. Near the hardware shop there is an apartment bulding [beside the pool and construction yard]. There is a wall you can go through and get inside the apartment [looks neat]

3. Occasionally if there are other cars in the road people will run really super fast when you scare them [hard to reproduce but funny to watch]

4. There are places you can land in that you cannot get out. The first home base has a fenced in area nearby that if you fall in it you cannot get out at all. :-)

Tom

Re:1920x1080??? (2, Informative)

sahonen (680948) | more than 10 years ago | (#6496111)

TVs are actually analogx525, at least in NTSC (PAL is something like 600 lines, I forget, since I don't work with it). Due to the way color is added, horizontal resolution is limited to about 720, which is why that's the resolution we work with when we digitize NTSC video.

Some of the 525 lines don't carry picture info and are cut off by your TV. They occasionally carry program information, or in some cases, Macrovision stuff designed to fool the auto gain correction on your VCR. In any case, the lines that aren't recorded end up making 480 a good vertical resolution to use for digital NTSC video.

Re:1920x1080??? (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6496116)

Actually, televisions are not like 640x480. Televisions are not digital, at least not completely. The electron gun starts at the top of the frame and paints one line at a time. By the time it hits the bottom, it's painted about 240 lines (in NTSC, that is). While painting a line, it's demodulating an analog signal into analog values of red, green, and blue. The horizontal resolution is NOT in terms of pixels or anything shaped like a dot; it's an analog signal whose resolution simply depends on the bandwidth available.

Vertical resolution is a different story. It is actually discrete and it's fair to express it as a specific integer. This is because, once the electron beam has finished traveling across the screen painting one line, it travels across again and paints another. There is a fixed number of these per frame. (And, there is an extra quirk -- you always have 60 frames per second, but you have the option of having 30 of them in a slightly different vertical position than the others, so that the two sets of horizontal lines interlace with each other.)

My point in all this is that the DVD's 720 pixel horizontal resolution is perfectly reasonable and perfectly compatible with traditional NTSC televisions -- it's not necessarily an improvement at all. Some (most) TVs will not have the bandwidth in the signal to convey that many separate pixels, but even so the result is just a little horizontal blurring of pixels. You can even think of that as a DVD being a little overengineered and using a higher sampling rate than necessary to reproduce the analog signal.

Having said all that, the day is coming when the only reasonable thing will be to record the movie at some high resolution (like 2048x1536, or maybe the 1920x1080 standard that Star Wars, episode II used) and throw only that on the disc. Then, the data can be transferred to the TV; if it doesn't have that many pixels on the screen, it can include a chip that allows it to scale and smooth the image. Of course, televisions will have to be rated in pixels, but they already are in some sense: HDTV implies 1920x1080, actually, IIRC...

Re:1920x1080??? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6496119)

Because it'd require real-time scaling and look pixelated.

Let me give you an example. I have a Radeon 9700 All in Wonder that's hooked up to cable TV. The cable input of the Radeon 9700 gets a signal that's 320x240. My monitor uses 1024x768 because my eyes suck and are really sensative to refresh. So, my actual monitor has TEN TIMES the area of the video input. Naturally, this pretty much requires scaling and looking blurry. It's sort of like taking a 640x480 wallpaper in windows and using the stretch function to make it fit a larger resolution - it sort of works, but you lose quality. And god forbid you have a widescreen - there's no way that resolution's going to gracefully scale.

The cable costs $50, that's why! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6495906)

Maybe when the cost of connecting the monitor to the DVD player is less than cost of a new DVD player, then we'll see it in wider practice.

More at Home Theater Forum (4, Informative)

abischof (255) | more than 10 years ago | (#6495918)

To some of us following the home theater scene, the Bravo D1 may be old news ;), but I can understand that it may not be common knowledge. In any case, the Home Theater Forum [hometheaterforum.com] is a great resource in general and it has a couple [hometheaterforum.com] threads [hometheaterforum.com] on this player as well. Of note from that second link is that the Bravo is not the only DVI player on the market:

The only DVI-out DVD players on the market at the moment are the V Inc. Bravo D1, the Samsung 931, and the Momitsu DV-880. If you will not be using the DVI-out on these players, all of them are said to give relatively subpar quality via all the analog outputs.

Re:More at Home Theater Forum (5, Informative)

Osty (16825) | more than 10 years ago | (#6495968)

Lovely! Those links are referred right back to Slashdot. That's one way to avoid a slashdotting.


Other good home theater sites:

  • AVS Forum [avsforum.com]
  • Home Theater Spot [hometheaterspot.com] (some useful reviews and links, but more importantly a great set of forums)
  • Digital Connection [digitalconnection.com] , the place to find high-end PC/home theater equipment.
  • Magnolia Hi-Fi [magnoliahifi.com] . Okay, I only threw this one in here because it's my preferred place to buy A/V equipment.

Supply and demand... (5, Insightful)

WIAKywbfatw (307557) | more than 10 years ago | (#6495922)

To add an extra output a manufacturer has to incorporate additional technology, redesign circuitry and the backpanel, test the whole setup, etc.

This isn't a fantastic amount to do - after all, this is probably a minor upgrade to most manufacturers - but it is rather pointless if 99.99 percent of your target audience won't even know what the port can be used for, let alone actually use it.

And why spend the time and effort incorporating an $5 (for argument's sake) upgrade if it makes next to no difference on how many units you'll sell? Right now, that $5 pe4r unit is lost profit in what's already a very cut-throat industry.

As DVI is a fairly new development (at least to the average home electronics consumer) it'll be a while before there's a major demand for DVI outputs on DVD players, etc. Gradually though, the major manufacturers will add DVI support, initially at the top of their ranges, then later throughout their catalogues.

In the end, it comes down to supply and demand. Right now, there's very little demand for DVI support. But you can bet the farm that by the time there actually is critical mass demand for DVI support it'll be there across the board.

Re:Supply and demand... (1)

brandorf (586083) | more than 10 years ago | (#6496068)

"Right now, there's very little demand for DVI support." Exactly. I have yet to see a single tube or projection based television/monitor offering DVI input. In fact, component inputs (Y/Pb/Pr)are just now showing up on midrange televisions. Only Plasma and LCD screens seem to have them, and very few people own these newer displays. Every Television that I've never heard of offers some sort of RF Coaxial input, so all VCRs offer this output. Most Televisions offer RCA inputs, most VCRs and all DVD players offer this. There is a Good chance that any newer TV has S-video inputs, a few VCRs and 99% of all DVD players offer this. Few Midrange Televisions offer Component Video, Only Upper Price range DVD players offer this. Plasma Screen conversion boards usually offer raw DVI input, we have one DVD player that offers this. Projection TV's, supposedly there are some that offer DVI as well, probably only HDTV units otherwise it would be a waste. So finally we have that DVD player for the person looking to squeeze out whatever quality gain there could be over component, to compliment his $8000 Plasma screen. I can't see their being much demand for this until we all get plasma screens, or DVI shows up on TVs that regular people can afford. But then again, I don't think you'd be able to notice any improvement unless you're at least HDTV resolution anyway.

Um... (4, Funny)

eMartin (210973) | more than 10 years ago | (#6495931)

"Why are there no big name DVD Players with digital video outputs?"

You mean like a computer?

Cheap PC imitation? (1)

leeet (543121) | more than 10 years ago | (#6495938)

This looks to me like the Apex-style DVD players. Looks like they modified a PC DVD player and added a modified video card and voila!

Why not use your computer? Now if I could find 50' cables, it would be nice...

Re:Cheap PC imitation? (1)

puck71 (223721) | more than 10 years ago | (#6496050)

It's not a problem finding 50' cables. Just search around. I ordered a 50' s-video cable online for under $10 (don't remember exactly how much). Sure they're not "technically" supposed to run more than 30' but it should work fine.

Re:Cheap PC imitation? (1)

AKnightCowboy (608632) | more than 10 years ago | (#6496122)

Why not use your computer? Now if I could find 50' cables, it would be nice...

www.cablestogo.com has just about every cable I've ever looked for. 50' VGA cables are there as well along with VGA extender boxes to boost the signal. I need to get a nice long S-VIDEO cable one of these days.

wrong conclusion (5, Informative)

poptones (653660) | more than 10 years ago | (#6495953)

the "industry agreement" is that no DVD players will have RGB outputs - and this one doesn't have those, either. DVI is "secure" and component has been on players for ages. And it would be pretty well pointless to have a high rez player (as this one is obviously intended) that wouldn't support contemporary hi rez displays.

What's most funny is that no one today would likely think of "ripping" a DVD from a capture card, just because all it takes is a $50 DVD drive and a braindead piece of software. And yet the manufacturers stick by their "no RGB" guns as if it actually means something.

BTW my "DVD player" does have RGB outputs. It also has a macrovision-less s-vid output.

Duh...

Re:wrong conclusion (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6496038)

Are you using a PC, or a hacked/modded DVD player? Basically, what DVD player are you using, and where can others find them?

Re:wrong conclusion (1)

v1 (525388) | more than 10 years ago | (#6496076)

I've got one of the "first run" Apex 2600's, and it has RGB composite outputs, as well as that wonderful "you should not be here" hidden menu that got it pulled off the shelves just after mine came home with me. (can turn off microvision and set region to everyone's favorite: "bypass") The only issue with this one is it has coaxial digital audio out, and it wasn't exactly trivial to find a receiver that had a coaxial digital audio-in port.

If I recall correctly, the digital streams have a "do not copy" flag they send with the encoded video stream, and end units in the digital chain will flip you the bird if you try to record such a digital stream with them. All part of the RIAA's coveted chain of trust system. If you want their decryption keys for the digital stream to make your digital video appliance, you have to sign a contract that promises you'll take away all your customer's fair-use rights.

FYI (1)

Sycraft-fu (314770) | more than 10 years ago | (#6496145)

www.m-audio.com sells a cheap coaxoptical S/PDIF converter. If you have a reciever that you liek that speaks optical and another component that speaks coax, this is for you. Seems to work fine with AC3 streams too.

There are others (4, Informative)

cheinonen (318646) | more than 10 years ago | (#6495954)

Samsung, for instance, makes their 931 player which has DVI w/ HDCP output and can upconvert to either 720p or 1080i with the DVI output (but only 480p thru the component outputs). However, the main reason I think other manufacturers are holding back is because while HDCP is a standard, it doesn't seem to work perfectly yet. The Samsung 931 won't work correctly in 1080i mode with Sony or Toshiba HDTV's currently, though I believe it does work in 720p mode with the Samsung DLP sets.


The reasoning behind using DVI and upconversion is that many HDTV's will upconvert 480p to 1080i or 720p internally (this is most common on DLP, LCD, Plasma, LCOS and other non-CRT technologies). By converting it internally before the digital stream is converted to analog, you should get a better conversion, or in theory you can add an external scaler (say an iScan or anything from Faroudja) and output a digital 480p signal for it to scale instead of an analog one.


The Bravo D1 is the first, and currently has better quality than Samsung, but it won't be the last for long. Popular rumor has Denon coming out with a universal DVD player (DVD, DVD-A, SACD) with DVI output (with HDCP) by the end of the year, but if the HDCP compatibility issues keep up, I wouldn't be surprised to see it be delayed. Of course, HDMI (High Definition Multimedia Interface) is what I can't wait for. One cable the size of a USB connector that can carry an HDTV signal and 8 channels of audio, so long cable mess!

Re:There are others (2, Informative)

rmostad (9491) | more than 10 years ago | (#6496073)

"The Samsung 931 won't work correctly in 1080i mode with Sony or Toshiba HDTV's currently, though I believe it does work in 720p mode with the Samsung DLP sets."

Call Samsung they have a firmware upgrade (CDR) that will upgrade the unit to work with Toshiba and Sony DVI sets.

Samsung already makes one (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6495955)

You can find the pertinent information here: Samsung DVD-HD931 [samsungusa.com]
Retail price is $299

How many TV's have DVI input? (4, Insightful)

psoriac (81188) | more than 10 years ago | (#6495956)

Until a large percentage of TV's start having DVI input, DVI output for consumer grade DVD players (or any other video player) is pointless from the economic standpoint.

In addition, component optical output is already far and away high enough quality to render the need for DVI moot.

The only TV-class displays that I know of which feature DVI inputs are flatpanel LCD and some flatpanel plasma displays... which are far more expensive than I can justify when compared to a comparably priced rear projection or CRT set.

Re:How many TV's have DVI input? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6496055)

HD-ready TV's usually have DVI inputs (because the HDTV tuners use DVI out).

Re:How many TV's have DVI input? (2, Interesting)

illumin8 (148082) | more than 10 years ago | (#6496134)

My Sony 40" Trinitron (40KV-XBR800) has DVI input, as do most hi-definition sets manufactured in the last few years.

IMO, you would be foolish to buy a new HDTV without DVI-HDCP as most set-top boxes are moving to this format as a method of copy protection (encrypting the signal between the set-top box and your TV in order to eliminate video capture and upload to the net).

DVI is no problem. How about Firewire/Component? (5, Interesting)

-tji (139690) | more than 10 years ago | (#6496012)

As other have mentioned, firewire can be copy restricted, using and encrypted in transport. Also, it's a high bandwidth, uncompressed data stream, which is not easy to copy.

The MPAA still does exert some control here, as you can tell from the lack of DVD players with FireWire interfaces. mitsubishi has been talking about them for years, to fit into their cool Havi [mitsubishi-tv.com] system. But, because of the all the MPAA usage restriction hysteria, they can't bring one to market.

Also, they block any analog outputs over 480P (e.g. component video, YPrPb, outputs at 720P or 1080i). These are analog outputs, which are not easily copied (try recording your VGA out). But, they still won't allow them because of the CSS license restrictions and lack of Macrovision.

This is also closely related to why you cannoy buy an HDTV DirecTV receiver with a Firewire output, and thus cannot record HDTV programs off satellite. The technology has been viable for years, D-VHS recorders are available and cheap, but the content providers prevent DirecTV from adding this feature. This slows down the adoption of HDTV, and stifles innovation. Don't you just love the MPAA?

Well well well (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6496052)

I suffer from a disease known as Munchausen syndrome by open proxy. It causes me to accept stray network packets, and purposely inject crc errors, just to get the NAK attention that I crave. But this is no worse than suffering from the affliction that ffierling struggles against. We read that since there are not (yet) many DVI capable dvd players, "it's easy to conclude the threat of litigation from copyright holders is holding up the big name manufacturers."

Easy if you're a paranoid tin-foil hat wearing geek, that is. Absent from ffierling's conclusion is a factual foundation. He's twisted facts to suit his theories.

It does not take a great deal of effort to imagine where there are not (yet) DVI capable players on the market. First among them is the economy. People aren't buying fancy schmancy toys, and in the DVD market in particular, low-cost players rules the roost. In other words, the focus in the industry has been to compete on cost, no features.

A second reason that comes to mind is that, well, not many people want to shell out the monies for a DVD player with DVI capabilites. But now that DVI displays are catching on, that's going to change. The chicken had to wait for the egg to show up first, if you will.

Who needs DVI out? (1)

release7 (545012) | more than 10 years ago | (#6496058)

There's this little yellow hole labeled "Video our" on the back of my TV with a little red hole and white hole below that. I seem to have matching holes on the back of my video capture card. Can someone clue me in as to what they are for?

Re:Who needs DVI out? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6496080)

They're for sticking your penis into. Nobody wants your analog crap anymore.

I dont get it... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6496063)

Why would the MPAA care about DVI out?

Slightly offtopic (1)

Technician (215283) | more than 10 years ago | (#6496082)

I also find it interesting there are no digital televisions. There are lots of HDTV and DTV monitors, but just try to find a television (Not NTSC but DTV). My 14 year old TV is awaiting a replacement, but none are to be found. I don't want a home theatre system. I want a TV that will work in a motorhome. Am I stuck with NTSC or a DISH subscription? I just want clear 11:00 news.

Yeah, how did they stay under the radar? (1)

lawpoop (604919) | more than 10 years ago | (#6496096)

how much did you pay for this 'undercover' internet marketing blitz?

Let's hope they fire off a few units before their mailbox gets DDOS'ed by RIAA lawyers.

raw DVI capture anyone? (1)

illumin8 (148082) | more than 10 years ago | (#6496098)

It's funny how even if the manufacturers don't bother to encrypt the DVI output with HDCP, I can't think of a solution that will capture a raw, uncompressed DVI video stream to disk. You would need an insane amount of SCSI RAID storage in order to do it. If I remember correctly it's something like hundreds of megabytes per second of data in a 1080i feed. But, I guess this time the manufacturers aren't waiting for technology to outflank the content industry (see RIAA for examples of this ;-)

The real question is: How good is the scaling algorithm that's used on these? I've seen 480p upscaled to 1080i and the quality is amazing if done properly! It almost makes those regular DVDs look like hi-def. As a matter of fact, looking at 1080i scaled from 480p on the new Terminator 2 DVD and comparing it to the WMP9 version, there were screen captures that were hard to tell apart.

So, has anyone evaluated these units, and is the scaling as good as D-Scaler, or a Faroudja scaler? I might be interested in buying one if they're only a couple of hundred dollars and I don't have to have an HTPC whirring away in my living room.

Q: Why not FireWire? (5, Interesting)

daveschroeder (516195) | more than 10 years ago | (#6496133)

A: Because the movie/tv industry is deathly afraid of it.

The promise of FireWire is a single cable, and an intelligent system, connecting all of your electronics devices together. Not just final output (like DVI), or tied to a host (like USB), but a peer-to-peer, universal, high speed bus that can carry content as well as control data. Any of your devices can communicate with one another, and, where applicable, control or send information to one another - all the while sending pristine digital content.

DVI is more attractive to some because it's a final output format, with less fundamental chance of being manipulated or captured by anything else. And copy protection can be enforced in the "monitor" or display device, if need be...FireWire could connect all of your equipment, including your computer, appliances, and more. It could even do it wirelessly.

Imagine one single, intelligent cable chain connecting all of your entertainment equipment - no more rat's nest of endless cabling, no more dumb devices unaware of anything but themselves...that is one of the purposes, and the promise, of FireWire.
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