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Afterstep 2.0 Beta Includes XML Graphics System

Hemos posted more than 10 years ago | from the from-the-wayback-machine dept.

X 214

vaevictus writes "Afterstep just released its 2.0 Beta 1, after a long merge from its development branch. One of the most interesting new features is an XML-based graphics system, where any picture for any part of the WM can be a simple chunk of XML, which can do transformations, scaling, gradients and some other nice graphics mods. I've personally used this to cut my 1600x1200 image size from a 2.4mb PNG to a total of about 37kb. This leads to some very compact themes. If you're not familiar, AfterStep is one of the older WMs out there still in active development; all of you WindowMaker fans should check out the WM your WM branched off of, so long ago."

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214 comments

Chat With Us! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6690502)

irc.rohitab.com
#weakestlink

Don't forget... (-1)

SCO$699FeeTroll (695565) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690503)

...to pay your $699 licensing fee you cock-smocking teabaggers.

Re:Don't forget... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6690535)

Why would I? I only use Microsoft!!!

Already testing it now.. (4, Interesting)

Shivaji Maharaj (692442) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690505)

Looks pretty slick. But the window movement is bit shaky and the screen jitters sometimes.

Re:Already testing it now.. (4, Interesting)

killthiskid (197397) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690701)

So I have a question... when I hear XML and graphics, and I instantly think SVG... does this format have anything to do with XML? Is it compatiable? Is there an XSL transformation you can do to turn it into SVG?

Re:Already testing it now.. (1)

killthiskid (197397) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690728)

I'm a dork: should read 'does this format have anything to do with SVG?' instead of 'does this format have anything to do with XML?'

Re:Already testing it now.. (5, Informative)

sashav (132614) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690947)

No, its not compatible with SVG, and actually has different goal. Afterstep's XML images merely provides interface to powerfull functionality of libAfterImage, including image overlaying, scaling, tiling, cropping, and so on. It has many uses, such as compiling complex icons from simplier clipart, creating scaled down thumbnails, changing colors of images to match that of colorscheme, and so on.
It is very usefull in different fields, such as web design, where you can create a script that generates all of the website's images from some clipart ( including text rendering ).
Note that AfterStep does not need to keep multiple copies of the same image for different pourposes, which is what KDE does with its icon themes, etc.

mirror, maybe muahhaa (4, Funny)

digitalsushi (137809) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690515)

i got some nice downloads off it, but here's a mirror.

echo "http://digitalXuXhi.com/aX2/www.afterXtep.org/"|s ed s/X/s/g

why'm i being a tool? cause only the people who want to visit will paste. mirrors take 10x the bandwidth with a link. so, if anyone translates my url into a link that gets modded over 1, i'll just remove the mirror :D buwahahaaaa

Re:mirror, maybe muahhaa (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6690546)

link [digitalsushi.com]

Re:mirror, maybe muahhaa (0, Flamebait)

donutz (195717) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690554)

http://digitalsushi.com/as2/www.afterstep.org/ [digitalsushi.com]


Don't be a karma whore. Go ahead and remove the mirror, and get modded down -1 Dumb. Bwahahaha!

Re:mirror, maybe muahhaa (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6690630)

949-725-3796

Re:mirror, maybe muahhaa (2, Funny)

dspeyer (531333) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690841)

Fool!

You posted with a karma bonus, so no one has modded you up, and no one is now likely to. Grandparent said he'd pull the mirror if the post was modded above 1.

Re:mirror, maybe muahhaa (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6690732)

why'm i being a tool?
Coz you are a FUCKING WANKER, and have only just worked out how to do substution in ED.

WANKER

Re:mirror, maybe muahhaa (1)

DrSkwid (118965) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690812)

it would be a good plan if it defeated /.'s word splitting in long urls

like this :

echo 'http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/08/13/19182 28&mode=nested&tid=104&tid=106&tid=185&tid=189 ' | tr -d ' '

Windowmaker + AS (4, Interesting)

flikx (191915) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690525)

Seriously folks, it's about time WindowMaker merges back with AfterStep. Dividing the great AS WM is the sole reason why KDE and GNOME dominate at this point.

If the WindowMaker project rejoined AfterStep, AfterStep could actually become a viable window manager on it's own terms. As opposed to relying on the publicity of the GNUStep project, and WindowMaker for support in the first place.

Re:Windowmaker + AS (2, Informative)

Arker (91948) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690564)

Assuming you're trolling, let me point out that WindowMaker isn't a fork of AfterStep, it's a from-scratch window manager in the same style. AfterStep on the other hand is a fork of another wm, twm was it?

I've always wondered why AfterStep still exists, actually, having tried both AfterStep always struck me as being a bit clumsy and crufty in comparison. Maybe some AfterStep fans want to explain what they like about it compared to WindowMaker?

Re:Windowmaker + AS (1)

guacamole (24270) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690847)

They tend to list some idiotic vanity features like transparent menus and such. Personally, last time I have used AS, which was years ago, it was clumsier and harder to use than WindowMaker which was amazing considering that Window Maker was 0.20.x and AS was supposed to be a lot more mature. In any case, both are irrelevant to me as I tend to stick with the default Gnome Window manager (whatever it is this year).

Re:Windowmaker + AS (3, Informative)

homer_ca (144738) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690864)

Afterstep was a fork of fvwm2 (a very old school window manager; think Redhat 4.2 and earlier). Both Windowmaker and Afterstep are recreations of the Nextstep GUI. When I tried AS (admittedly years ago), it still showed its clunky fvwm2 roots. All configs were in text files including the Wharf (called Icon Dock in Next). The dock on the Next had draggable icons which was pretty cool for its time (first came out in 1989), and WM had that too, so it was a closer imitation of the Nextstep GUI. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the AS Wharf supports drag and drop for launching files, but not for application icons.

Re:Windowmaker + AS (1)

cbv (221379) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690880)

Actually, more like a fork of bowman, which in turn was a fork of fvwm.

See this page [plig.org]:

AfterStep is based on Fvwm, but it is designed to emulate some of the look and feel of the NEXTSTEP(R) user interface, while adding useful, requested, and neat features. It started life under the name of Bowman, by Bo Yang, but has since moved past simple emulation and into a niche as its own valuable window manager.

Re:Windowmaker + AS (5, Informative)

sashav (132614) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690987)

AfterStep 2.0 is a complete from scratch reimplementation, Its much more flexible then WM, its graphics subsistem is much more advanced and powerfull, resource management is better ( consider the fact that AS now compresses images in memory - something no other desktop environment could do).
It was redesigned to be compliant with new window management specs, and as different from WM it is actually being developed right now.

Re:Windowmaker + AS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6690593)

you must be an idiot. or a very good troll.


kde/gnome are desktop environments, not window managers. KDE includes KWM window manager, and gnome prefers sawmill, but both will work with most any window manager.


But there's no reason for afterstep and windowmaker to merge. They split for a reason. If AfterStep isn't "a viable window manager on it's own terms", maybe it should disappear.

Re:Windowmaker + AS (1)

YOU LIKEWISE FAIL IT (651184) | more than 10 years ago | (#6691172)

gnome prefers sawmill

Gnome seems to change the 'preferred' window manager every now and then. I believe the current favourite for Gnome2 is Metacity, although I could be mistaken.

YLFI

Nah.. (1)

msimm (580077) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690606)

Gnome and KDE lead because they are Windows-like. Great for transitioning people who don't want to jump in feet first. WindowsMaker was my first DE of choice, until I discovered BlackBox (simpler, cleaner and fast and arguably better looking!). IMHO of course.

Correcting myself. (1)

Arker (91948) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690613)

Oops I meant assuming you're not just trolling.

Also I just checked, AfterStep is a fork of fvwm.

Re:Windowmaker + AS (1)

sashav (132614) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690966)

I don't really see how WM could join AS. I mean WM's codebase is so messed up, that I would not want to take even a tiny bit of it into AS.
Besides AS can do most everything WM does and plus much more already.

Re:Windowmaker + AS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6691111)

Actually, it was the problems with the AfterStep codebase that resulted in the WindowMaker fork in the first place. As an active WindowMaker developer, I can say that many improvements have been made over the original AfterStep codebase.

AfterStep is much like the Enlightened Window Manager, which is an offshoot of TWM. Like TWM, Enlightened is full of crufty features, such as, flamboyant, heavy graphical interfaces, missing features, and frequent crashes. AfterStep is similar in that respect, but it is very nice to see some development.

Perhaps in the future, AfterStep will shake it's troubled roots in the NeXT system. But it may be nice to see it return to supporting a few of the older features, like display PDF.

XML Image format? (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6690526)

You mean something like this?

<picture width="100" height="100">
<pixel>
<element x="0" y="0">
<component name="red" value="10" />
<component name="green" value="255" />
<component name="blue" value="10" />
</element> ......
</pixel>
</picture>

Re:XML Image format? (1, Insightful)

gfody (514448) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690548)

lol, mod this up

seriously, wtf does XML have to do with a windowing system or any other type of rendering gizmo?

Re:XML Image format? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6690549)

Doh, that would produce an empty image, of course. Try doing a sed -e 's/pixel/pixels/g'. I am teh suxxors.

Re:XML Image format? (2, Insightful)

gregfortune (313889) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690600)

No, I assume it's something more vector like...

<picture width="100" height="100">
<instruction x="0" y="0">
<line x="24" y="40"/>
<etc..... />
</instruction>
</picture>

Re:XML Image format? (5, Funny)

zulux (112259) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690602)

No.... like this!

</picture type=jpeg>
<data encoding=32_bit_little _endian_binary_written_in_an_acsii_string_in=32_li ttle_endian>
1010101100101001010000111010101010100010001010101 0101010001010101......
</data>
</picture>

Re:XML Image format? (1, Funny)

kubrick (27291) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690849)

Hmmm... you were in charge of the MS Office XML support, weren't you? :) Even down to the / at the start of the opening <picture> tag...

Re:XML Image format? (5, Informative)

vaevictus (126738) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690627)

Actually you're not too far off...
take a 17KB greyscale tile (defenseless elsie, in this case), and load it with this chunk of xml:

<composite op=tint>
<gradient width=$xroot.width height=$xroot.height colors="BaseDark BaseLight" angle=45/>
<img tile=1 tint="#7Fffffff" src="tiles/DefenselessElsie"/>
</composite>

an d you've got a beautiful 1600x1200 image with a gradient that passes through the entire background , not just a single tile. It will also pull the colors for this gradient out of your current colorscheme, unless you would like to change some simple xml around.

Re:XML Image format? (3, Funny)

fedor (598123) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690669)

Nah...this one is at least compatible with my very own all-purpose, bloatless, but XML-compliant DTD :

<data>
<![CDATA[
begin 644 xmlgif.gz
M'XL(".[).C\``V)L82YG:68``;`&3_E'248X-V $P`;@`\```````____+```
M```P`;@```+^C(^IR^T/HYRTV HNSWKS[#X;B2);FB:;JRK;N"\?R3-?VC>?Z
MSO?^#PP*A\2B \8A,*I?,IO,)C4JGU*KUBLUJM]RN]PL.B\?DLID%:*1):\3Z
M'4FW`W,Z8'YORQ5U1O_0]V>P!YB0YW97*'@VLM@X"`E!>%@8J 0<9N)'I1S>8
M6-D9&DK(>"%WZ?F6B#KYZ09*NFJWY[I`*BH* 9XF+B>>J-VF7RHGWNKOK6,JG
M>LP:.:K+B]JI^\G,^U!\C&U 875E]'1UG/`J*J*RF78X=W6[>O.UMF;>H[N[@
M#!\_3VE+?F \K&9E:S^09RS>+X#J##"G8*YCM&[U]N9Z-@P41G\#^,;7R;4+H
MB-;";QGIU?N740U)0R57FE2)L:*?C6:LR?/H*>6?:>`H2G@ H$^:ZD<)DTK0(
M,B"ZGT5S_6(FKA]+G:V"7@3442$?6+^P#K UV=1C6HTLYE?U`]NR,M&JG<FNK
M@RW<L7/KVKV+-Z_>O7S[^ OT[X:A<P(17#"Z,.&)7;?T.)WZ<L^C-EDTA6]:(
MTFE,7Y<[ =]L:#QBE0(X]V^WH<ILYK:8OVT3VRF/IUGU/*3K8E;9NL[M[>Y CM
M.SCPX,2+&S^./+GRY<R)#`==(=9B#-(O/6_.X3HYAU\Q4 >].#3N,QG2]XR)O
M4]W;8+#=GKQW2[P):ZGG"8-O<*6D=]#^ :4X[)Y\(J.E#%'SZ`9C03ORYEXI6
M_WT68`<*O03-:,U,9)1 23%GDSUL=>AA9A)JHIYH^FPSE$H8,*C:6@PN&***$
M!F9(%' AUD,B;0/'ALR!K,?Z6VRSU"5F2>O[YZ-9/2/Z8EW9,XN7DDZ=) 2665
M5EZ)999:;FG*"SM&%%Z7&MQRXW0?BACE?FG!,5AIK0# U)8A@2(4>1%E9YPN>
M8BF2YVWG(1F,*IRQV5]YX!%)S';.*% @&?12M4I6-#4G&(:5&V090-C,NF92-
M+_)FE5E+5C%@9I,]J M^,F1U$H*`N4B;G@S7B)U62LB99&183%EI@JD5:6&)0
M&-ZD (I@)IJ3^4IZ34K@ALF=ZM46IF[4*JSBP3FMBI<RN&A.//*':3: V*?LKA
MJ%0XZNE"R_I*HZGU9<HC9>;":5^HQMJK:)I'T)F;- W=V2UZ]`,O"D+E(925G
MN01[)5ITX=Y+F+Y<,B+QQ#59C''& &F_,<<<>-U=QHB7$N=^83HF6'GV"A*P,
MRUM)3#+$%K"'HK; KD?JO>7H::AO/DA'4\YXT(^H/,.4(BLC.8:X:,$^`LF,S
M2X P^@2Y^]T5FM:3!.LH*IL["]%J[X1B[*;N!M8AVR0;W(*V\X*8+ =[?O_OKJ
MH:HF(^NZ_/BX,G2@YBK$KBN>"K>KJ@[,]=[^I3K LL.2:U^"CQ<K^S!_>&A;1
M-HUZQWUMM=F&6S>\4%?Z,K8(M3 @UMK%"F$35;D/S]MU1ISNIV@#)7O+KKH?E
MN5"`,\$O3M3T2 =6WN3HMTE=K7_TG\?CZ+:1T)P>F8O"4G^%R#=EOO+V7CW^<
M G:[+@T]^^>:?CW[Z57:O,_0LBID!F0]#CNMR[(=YXCAM:E*ANW USE#/\\2EI
M`_19>J3FO*&)*S:],%N=5H2HVSW-2"1)'1=VU S7F):Y>6;.6I3(HB^<M@UHB
M[!WNFE5"@5TA<\+#7:=.][53 =6V!PCM4CD#CPLF-BW3;^1W5\J<[$TH$6#43
M%K#`L<`/+4N 'I4L;K98'%-]!ZUPX:J'^$+=VH"OFIT%3VYS^3)?%8X'J5CT<
M7^M<>*'87=%=GR/C"`LDNC.U,(Z^<^.?PF"];`40>9NY$5>2 UXZU!<UH#>/=
M(:17R+,1,%ZU45^3'`DE2$IRDI2LI"4OZ9O _"0B3SOD;6C@9.)\)#47H01HH
MX_+"(FE0(FD\)0U*54,9LH LSKO32B2AD.!,Y;FOWJR4L<0C,(I[.C+4,00A?
MURNQJ;"8: YG?]%H5)+"`[7/,K*8UKXG-;&ISF]SLIC=OH,G<?1,(L^GE.!T V
M/#_QXWOGM"4KDRF;=KXRBH%4G0_E>0+!B0UE'B0F/D?$-& JNQIS_/.8'SZ,Y
M@OYS7&9:)P^5%VH#A4)T9!.=@D0KBM&,: G2C'!V()]G9433,+*3@;&!!#KBH
M/9%41N_46P8OM5+JT!.+ RCQ83*G'JQK-$G5OO*DD9BK,WO74ITJZXZQ::3Q_
M$A6AT7Q *3J*BU*5*4:H^N"A5>7?5K&IUJUSMJE>_"M:PBG6L9"VK6<^*U K2J
A=:UL;:M;WPK7N,IUKG2MJUWOBE>[%@``.Z[]*V6P!@``
`
end.

]]>
</data>

Re:XML Image format? (1)

sashav (132614) | more than 10 years ago | (#6691011)

consider this small example that implements aterm's icon from two clipart images :

Not being familiar with this... (5, Insightful)

I'm a racist. (631537) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690534)

I've got a few questions.
  • Does the typical "XML bloat" become an issue?
  • And, is there much gained by using XML over some/any other scheme?
  • Is it very sensitive to errors, like most XML applications? If one XML file/tag gets corrupted, is the whole windowing system fucked until someone goes in on the command-line to fix it?
  • Overall, is it a good thing or a bad thing?

Re:Not being familiar with this... (0, Offtopic)

gregfortune (313889) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690565)

Not if the "theme" or image is being expressed by transformation rather than single pixels. I can't think of a way XML would beat something like png for representing pixels, but I imagine that their images contain drawing instructions which would consume *far* less space.

Note that the feature in the feature list says
5. XML image scripting

Nice homepage moron. (0, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6690570)

You weren't kidding with the name I guess.

Not being familiar with this...Line items. (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6690572)

Um...no. You have to pay extra for those features.

Re:Not being familiar with this... (0, Flamebait)

vaevictus (126738) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690725)

Is it very sensitive to errors, like most XML applications? If one XML file/tag gets corrupted, is the whole windowing system fucked until someone goes in on the command-line to fix it?
It typically just fucks up that image... and so far it's been pretty lenient to me.
Does the typical "XML bloat" become an issue? And, is there much gained by using XML over some/any other scheme?
XML bloat as in too many tags or not streamlined data? I've not noticed this. XML was the chosen scheme mostly because of it's strict heirarchy. There may be better schemes.

XSLT to convert to SVG (2, Interesting)

stonebeat.org (562495) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690542)

Any XSLT available to covert the AfterStep XML to SVG???

Re:XSLT to convert to SVG (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6690897)

Do you frig your mother with those fingers?

The good news (5, Funny)

The Bungi (221687) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690543)

I've personally used this to cut my 1600x1200 image size from a 2.4mb png to a total of about 37kb.

That's the good news. The bad news is the WM now eats up 300MB of memory, instead of 30.

Re:The good news (2, Interesting)

vaevictus (126738) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690563)

Actually, AfterStep 2.0 typically consumes less than 8mb ... slimness is one of its strong suits... still.

Re:The good news (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6690614)

Fdisk is a dos program.

Re:The good news (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6690729)

8mb isn't slim for a windowmanager. It's piggish.

Re:The good news (1)

vaevictus (126738) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690764)

That includes the payload for my background image, which is kept in AfterStep for manipulation, instead of cluttering up X.

Re:The good news (1)

scotch (102596) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690905)

Great idea, that way, the background image gets stored two places!

Re:The good news (1)

torpor (458) | more than 10 years ago | (#6691058)


Yeah, one for transportation (the 8meg install), and one for actual use. Cool trick, nice integrated-backup!

SVG? (4, Insightful)

SynKKnyS (534257) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690544)

Why don't they use SVG (Scalable Vector Graphics)? It would be neat to use a SVG editor to produce a theme.

Re:SVG? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6690949)

there's some SVG GNOME themes out in the gnome-themes-extra package

What about gnome? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6690545)

Isn't gnome 2.4 (when it comes out in the autumn) based on an svg based graphical system?

afterstep and windowmaker (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6690559)

Windowmaker branched from afterstep because afterstep sucks, and the maintainers refused to fix the fundamental flaws.


Do you advise people that like Windows xp to use windows 3.0 as well?

Re:afterstep and windowmaker (1)

sashav (132614) | more than 10 years ago | (#6691032)

As I noted before AfterStep 2 is complete new rewrite, and all the flaws had been fixed or will be fixed. BTW Alfredo Kojima wrote WindowMaker not becouse AS had flaws (which it did), but becouse he wanted strick compliance with NeXT interface, while AfterStep was moving towards being flexible and allow non-NeXTis features.

I'm not sure how this all works (1)

hether (101201) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690571)

Does the scaling maintain a copy of the larger image and just publish the smaller, scaled version to a web page? If so, it would seem you'd be using a lot more storage space than is necessary to keep that large image around. Probably not a problem in today's world of huge hard drives, unless your hosting limits you. It would be cool for scalable designs though.

It's got some good looking screenshots, and the link to http://themes.freshmeat.net/browse/922/?topic_id=9 22 leads some to some pretty nice themes.

Boo advancement!!! (3, Funny)

Admiral Llama (2826) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690582)

Dang, Afterstep might be becoming too advanced for my tastes. Time to switch to TWM!

On a more serious note, 8 years ago I used Afterstep. It was the easiest thing to hack through the config files and make it do what ever I wanted to with a minimum of fuss, real estate, processor time, or color space allocation (a big thing on a Sun Classic sporting only a CG3).

Between then an now I've lived with Enlightenment, Window Maker, Gnome, KDE and OSX, yet for my work box I still use Afterstep. Maybe it's because it has a minimal number of doodads to distract me from doing actual work?

Re:Boo advancement!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6690635)

You laugh, but CTWM is still the most memory efficient, perfectly customizable window manager available. No stupid/useless XML graphics, no icons, "docks" or other dumb distractions that get in the way of my work.

Re:Boo advancement!!! (1)

Admiral Llama (2826) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690779)

Hmmm, I'll have to check that out. Honestly, TWM isn't all that pretty to me, and I have to have sloppy focus and autoraise or else life just isn't worth living. Autosnap is a wonderous thing, but I can survive without it. Other than, the more minimal the better.

I've tried quite a few WM/DEs... (0, Offtopic)

blitzoid (618964) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690595)

After trying all the major and some not-so-major Window Managers/Desktop Environments for Linux, I have to say that Fluxbox is the one that has captured my intrest for the longest, with Gnome being a close second.

Not to be flamebait, but I just prefer Gnome over KDE because it seems cleaner, faster, and more usable (God bless the HIG). KDE is good for beginner users, however.

Re:I've tried quite a few WM/DEs... (1)

Feyr (449684) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690837)

KDE, Gnome, good for beginners, bloatware (15 megs for the simplest app? no fuckin way!)

Fluxbox. configurability, useability, and damn nasty memory leaks i never could track down

Blackbox, nice, small, clean, easy to use. but lacking on-top windows :\

countless other WMs: unuseable, bloated, ugly, etc..
bleh,

i have yet to find a WM that fits all of my needs. for now i'm using blackbox

Re:I've tried quite a few WM/DEs... (1)

robson (60067) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690876)

i have yet to find a WM that fits all of my needs. for now i'm using blackbox

Since you're already in the box family, have you tried Openbox [icculus.org]?

Re:I've tried quite a few WM/DEs... (1)

Xoid629 (598744) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690996)

I use Openbox with the ROX [sourceforge.net] Desktop... much lighter than KDE or GNOME, and a nice balance between features and speed.

Re:I've tried quite a few WM/DEs... (1)

lightcycle (649999) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690924)

Have you tried fvwm?
configurability: To the end of the universe and back (although everything is in hard to understand textfiles)
rock solid, even the development branch
nice appearance (if you tweak it a bit. The factory presets has to be the most godawful I've ever seen)
fast, with a small memory footprint
extremely usable with the right configuration

Re:I've tried quite a few WM/DEs... (1)

Xabraxas (654195) | more than 10 years ago | (#6691056)

Have you tried Window Maker? I was a big fan of Fluxbox for a while but then I tried Window Maker. It starts up quicker than Flux for me and on top of that there are many more features. I love the fact that it is highly configurable yet still very light. Configuration is a snap with the graphical menu but if you prefer text files, those are fairly straight forward too.

wait, this sounds familiar... (4, Insightful)

CoughDropAddict (40792) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690604)

One of the most interesting new features is an XML-based graphics system, where any picture for any part of the WM can be a simple chunk of XML, which can do transformations, scaling, gradients and some other nice graphics mods.

Oh, you mean like SVG?

I guess this could be justified if it were significantly lighter-weight than SVG. Otherwise, why not reuse?

Y DIY? (4, Funny)

JB72 (463516) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690619)

I'd like to write more on the topic but I'm currently busy trying to compile my own light-bulb. I'll have a beta ready in less than two years, or sooner if I can get some more help from the open source community.

Linux rox!

ps - don't tell anyone I actually spend 90% my free time in Windows playing embarrassing adolescent video games.

Hmmm. (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6690632)

This looks awfuly familar to me [afterstep.org]
<img src="http://www.afterstep.org/images/Translunacy-b ig.jpg">

Re:Hmmm. (2, Funny)

mindsuck (607395) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690719)

Windows 95 Plus! flashback! Oh god! Make the hurting stop, make the hurting stop! Now, seriously, I liked that theme but on such a high resolution that wallpaper just looks bad. Something nifty like that but rendered in glorious 3D would be neat.

Looks like Windoze wallpaper (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6690685)

Is it just me, or does this wallpaper look like one from computer W9x theme?

Link [afterstep.org]

Lamous Front Page Editing :-( (1)

euroderph (598144) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690706)

Key simple question: SVG or not SVG?
This is the front page we're talkin' about!

Re:Lamous Front Page Editing :-( (1)

torpor (458) | more than 10 years ago | (#6691028)

The answer is: duh, whatever.

blah blah blah

blah blah blah

etc.

Re:Lamous Front Page Editing :-( (2, Funny)

torpor (458) | more than 10 years ago | (#6691050)

The answer is: duh, whatever.

<xml_graph type="svg">
<svg_data>blah blah blah</svg_data>
</xml_graph>

<xml_gra ph type="png">
<png_data>blah blah blah</png_data>
</xml_graph>

etc.

PS {SORRY: should have previewed}

Why switch from WindowMaker? (4, Interesting)

ikekrull (59661) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690713)

So what does AfterStep do that WindowMaker doesn't? Its not very clear from the website.

WindowMaker CVS has antialiased fonts, and with a little bit of work on icons and tile backgrounds, my desktop looks great.

The menu editor/prefs utility is easy to use, the clip's desktop switching is perfect for what I want, theres nothing obvious about AfterStep that would make me want to switch back.

WindowMaker + GNOME apps/libs + ROX-Filer make up my ideal GUI environment.

As far as I know, theyre both written in C, as opposed to Objective-C for GNUStep, they both attempt to mimic some or all aspects of NeXTSTEP, and WindowMaker was created because the Afterstep crew was too anal about incorporating features that did not appear in the original NeXT system.

So now theyre adding features to Afterstep - dumping the whole idea behind what AfterStep was - 'Its strictly a clone of NeXTSTEP', and somehow this is a step (STEP?) forward?

So why switch from WindowMaker, when AfterStep is clearly just playing catch-up now?

That being said, there are a few rough edges in Window Maker, so perhaps competition from AfterStep will smooth them out.

Re:Why switch from WindowMaker? (5, Informative)

sashav (132614) | more than 10 years ago | (#6691094)

Its not just the text antialiasing, although AfterStep 2 can antialias both TTF fonts and good old X bitmap fonts. AfterSTep has a very powerfull graphics engine with things like in-memory image compression, high quality image rendering with dithering, high quality and fast scaling, 15 ways to overlay image on top of each other (similar to GIMP) Hue Saturation Value manipulation, etc. Note that all of it is very fast and memory efficient.

Now AfterStep's desktop model is much more flexible then Window Maker's

Menu editor/prefs thingy is probably the only absent thing in AS 2, but I'm working on it.

Originally AS was anal about being too NeXT strict, which prompted creation of WM, and if you'd look into possibilities of WM's titlebar and frame decoration configuration, and compare it to AfterStep - you'll see enough advantage in AS.

both written in C, but let me tell ya, that you don't want to be messing around with WM's codebase - it sucks.

AfterSTep does not plays catch up - in 2.0 version we have several things that no other desktop environment has - XML images, Menus adjusting to use pattern, Colorschemes, to name just few.

simple animations (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6690723)

this sounds like it could be great if you were able to script events. you could animate vector translations of shapes and colours for some really crazy UI effects!

Re:simple animations (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6690785)

Yeah, that would be real interesting ... for a couple of minutes.

How many pictures does a person need? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6690766)

XML pictures - who cares. I see too many pictures already. I don't care to see much more.

National Geographic magazine once a month, Life Magazine onec a week -- a person doesn't need more pictures than that.

Re:How many pictures does a person need? (1)

sashav (132614) | more than 10 years ago | (#6691151)

ON eof the purposes of using XML is to reduce number of images. I mean look at icon themes for KDE - they have many copies of the same image and many images that essentially look the same or could be compiled from simplier images. We solv that problem with XML.

SVG to XML convertor (1)

mnemonic_ (164550) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690827)

Is there an easy way to convert SVG graphics to XML?

Re:SVG to XML convertor (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6690879)

Sure.

cat input.svg > output.xml

Re:SVG to XML convertor (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6690984)

SVG is XML!

Hrm (3, Interesting)

lvdrproject (626577) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690831)

Hm, well, i'm a big Window Maker fan, myself. The whole *Step thing intrigues me, though, be it AfterStep, GNUStep, WinStep, or whatever. I just like the way the system works. However....

I realise that Window Maker and the like are pretty much designed to be "minimalist", but they seem to be lagging very far behind KDE and GNOME in terms of interface design. For example, just looking at the AfterStep screen-shots on the site (before it gets Slashdotted, heh), i'm liking the way the system is designed, in general, but it looks hideous. The graphics used in the interface are jagged, the window frames and buttons are almost industrial in their simplicity and lack of creativity, and the icons still look like really bad GIFs. And, like i said, i'm a fan of Window Maker, and prefer it over any other window-manager, but it's guilty of this too. They all look like something you might see running on a Commodore or an Amiga.

I know that they're constantly being improved and updated, and i realise the importance of laying down a proper foundation before you go around making things look nice and anti-aliased and all that jazz, but i think a lot of the reason GNOME and KDE each have such a huge following is because they're very pleasant to look at. I think WM and AfterStep and the like could benefit very much from trying to add in a little "eye candy" here and there. You don't need any gimmicks, but i really don't think it would negate the intended minimalism of the system if there were just "themes" and icons and what-not of the same calibre as those you might find looking at Nautilus or Konqueror.

Regardless of all that, Window Maker will remain my favourite window-manager, and i'll continue to recommend it to those looking for a good UNIX interface. And the whole XML graphics thing sounds really neat, also. Just wish they were "up there", in terms of what i mentioned, with GNOME and KDE. :/

Tried Openbox? (1)

ShadeARG (306487) | more than 10 years ago | (#6691026)

Have you checked out Openbox [icculus.org]? It is a minimalistic window manager based off of Blackbox (Similar to WindowMaker), and adds some nice refining touches. These include scrolling your mousewheel on a window titlebar to shade up and down with ease, optimization for remote X forwarding (runs very nice remotely from my PS2), actually.. just read the About [icculus.org] section on the site for the details.

Re:Hrm (0)

Genghis Troll (158585) | more than 10 years ago | (#6691052)

Check out Xfce4 [xfce.org]. It doesn't seem to be as customizable as *box/fvwm/afterstep/windowmaker, but looks much more "slick", and is fairly lean, compared to KDE and Gnome anyway. I use either fluxbox or fvwm2 myself, but they are definitely in your "industrial" category.

Re:Hrm (1)

Solosoft (622322) | more than 10 years ago | (#6691054)

http://chris.thesmartone.net:81/~chris/snapshot56. png
I don't need a big advanced wm or anything. One of the things I like is the more "true" multiple desktops of windowmaker. When you goto the 2nd desktop nothing of the first remains in your way and the ablity to drag windows over is GREAT. This is good when I do alot of things such as "web devel" in one and my basic IM's in the other. Also I am running it all on a Pentium 166MMX with 128mb of RAM. So Gnome2 is useless to me cause of GTK2 (Even with all the GTK settings down it still runs like ass. KDE was nice, it honestly runs good on a 166MMX as long as you have RAM. The one thing I didn't like was the size (im on a 6gb HDD) so I tried Windowmaker. In debian I just apt-get the wmaker conf utility. This gives me all the goodies I would ever need. The one thing about fluxbox and blackbox I didn't like was the confusion I had when I ran many xterms. I kinda lost them. On a 800x600 screen (monitor issues) it's hard to keep all that shit in my view.

Just my little opinion

Re:Hrm (2, Insightful)

venom600 (527627) | more than 10 years ago | (#6691073)

but i think a lot of the reason GNOME and KDE each have such a huge following is because they're very pleasant to look at

Not a flame.....but, I completely disagree. I think the reason that KDE and GNOME are so popular has everything to do with the fact that they are the default window managers in the most popular Linux distros (*cough*RedHat*cough*Suse*cough*). Another plus is that they bring that 'Windows'-ish feel, which new Linux converts crave......it gives them something somewhat familiar while investigating a whole new world (read: Linux/*BSD/your-free-unix-like-OS-of-choice)

Afterstep site... (1)

ErisCalmsme (212887) | more than 10 years ago | (#6690904)

I went to the after step site hoping to find some reasons that I might want to switch, but their site is very minimal. Is that stylistic or something? Or are they just not eager to convert people? I use fluxbox now, and have tried window maker, enlightenment, sawfish and metacity (GNOME isn't a window manager?)... Each window manager has its good points I guess. I dunno I'm just a little disappointed. I was hoping to at least find a little something along the lines of "heres why you should use this instead of __" any advocates here? so far afterstep doesnt look to popular;)

Re:Afterstep site... (5, Informative)

sashav (132614) | more than 10 years ago | (#6691138)

We don't have too many ppl working on AS.
I mean I do all the development, clipart design, support, and pretty much everything else.
I don't have no time whatsoever to work on web site, and it was rather dead for quite a while, and only recently got revived by Remmy. One of the purposes of releasing this beta was to attract more ppl to the project, and get some help.

You can take a look at my devel site on SourceForge:
http://afterstep.sf.net
and screenshots on
http://afterstep.sf.net/afterstep20beta/

After Step (1)

BrookHarty (9119) | more than 10 years ago | (#6691000)

Other then looks, what keeps people using Windowmaker or Afterstep? Are there software that locks people in to a *Step gui? I have software that needs CDE on solaris, but thats it. Myself, I use Windowmaker or IceWM when I want a good little lightweight window manager, but no software locks me into it.

Not trolling, just curious. Other than the ease of use and good looks, what is special about Afterstep or Windowmaker?

Not a branch and not a good idea... (1)

Xabraxas (654195) | more than 10 years ago | (#6691003)

all of you WindowMaker fans should check out the WM your WM branched off of, so long ago.

As it has been mentioned, Window Maker is not a branch of AfterStep. Afterstep was created from fvwm to emulate NeXTSTEP. Window Maker was started from scratch because AfterStep was too bloated and more of a hack.

Someone also mentioned something about merging Window Maker and AfterStep. "Why?", I ask. There is no need. If the features are that great then either people will stop using Window Maker and start using AfterStep or Window Maker developers will incorporate those features into Window Maker.

Bah, who needs all that glitz (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6691177)

I'm *still* running AfterStep-1.0pre6. Originally I ran it on an RS/6000, and stopped for a while when I switched to Linux and Enlightenment. These days I'm back to AfterStep-1.0pre6 though. It's lightwieght, simple and fast. Perfect for running under VNC.

Z
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