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Is the Dean Campaign Spamming?

michael posted more than 10 years ago | from the hmmmmmm dept.

Spam 432

bluelark writes "A few days ago, a friend of mine fowarded to me some spam apparently from the Howard Dean campaign. The sender's return address, however, was dean@america.propulsive.net. In addition, this is not the Texas email we've all heard about. Being bored, I did some research, and I found some intriguing results. If you are interested, I've posted the the technical details and the the spam. Even though the images in the email are being served from Venezuela, the links in the body of the spam are actually redirects from a marketing partner called eScriptions.net to a Dean for America registration page. It appears that the campaign is outsourcing their email with some dubious marketing partners who are then using notorious spamhauses to send out the actual email. Why does a supposedly "net savvy" campaign even think for one second that this approach is acceptable?"

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432 comments

FP (-1, Offtopic)

FosterKanig (645454) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718146)

Mod me down. I got Karma to burn

Re:FP (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6718154)

OVERCOME FEAR AND ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE!

Wrestling forever! Jericho is teh best! I'd like to jack off Randy Orton, too.

A: Yes, because Democrats are fucking pigs. (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6718173)

Anti-American, pro-French, pro-welfare, anti-religion, ...

Can anybody seriously assert otherwise? This is why the democrats are going to get their fucking heads handed to them in the 2004 election.

Re:A: Yes, because Democrats are fucking pigs. (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6718215)

Anti-American

You mean anti neocon? Good.

pro-French/i>

Not an isolationaist. Excellent.

pro-welfare

A social conscience instead of dog-eat-dog capitalism? Even better.

anti-religion

Which is perferct. 58% of Americans believe in the virgin birth, whereas only ~20% believe in Evolution. Majority believes in the fallacty that one has to believe in God in order to be a moral person.

This way you're going the way of the radical islamist nations: down the drain intellectually and socially.

Can you help me with Microsoft Outlook? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6718266)

Please? It is really hard and I need somebody to help me. And after reading your post, you must be really, really smart (or is that a "fallacty").

Re:A: Yes, because Democrats are fucking pigs. (-1, Offtopic)

uberslack (5984) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718219)

fuck america, fuck france, fuck welfare, fuck religion, do hard drugs

Oh well... (-1, Offtopic)

AntiOrganic (650691) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718149)

I think Bob Graham is a better candidate anyway.

Re:Oh well... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6718172)

To Bob: "Gobble, gobble, it's turkey time!"

Re:Oh well... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6718421)

Dean should work on the latino heat.

Ay, ay, ay! Chicas putas!

Perhaps.... (4, Interesting)

pjdepasq (214609) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718151)

Perhaps being net saavy means that you know enough to farm it out and not have to:
1) worry about doing it yourself, and
2) being able to blame it on someone else when it all goes badly (or is revealed as spam).

CRAZY? CRAZY LIKE A FOX. SAVVY? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6718193)

SAVVY LIKE MY ENGORGED ASSHOLE! FUCK DEAN.

*_d_e_a_n_s_e_x_*_d_e_a_n_s_e_x_*_d_e_a_n_s_e_x_*_
d_______________________________________________g_ _
e_/_____\_____________\____________/____\_______o_ _
a|_______|_____________\__________|______|______a_ _
n|_______`._____________|_________|_______:_____t_ _
s`________|_____________|________\|_______|_____s_ _
e_\_______|_/_______/__\\\___--___\\_______:____e_ _
x__\______\/____--~~__________~--__|_\_____|____x_ _
*___\______\_-~____________________~-_\____|____*_ _
d____\______\_________.--------.______\|___|____g_ _
e______\_____\______//_________(_(__>__\___|____o_ _
a_______\___.__C____)_________(_(____>__|__/____a_ _
n_______/\_|___C_____)/INSERT\_(_____>__|_/_____t_ _
s______/_/\|___C_____)__DEAN_|__(___>___/__\____s_ _
e_____|___(____C_____)\_HERE_/__//__/_/_____\___e_ _
x_____|____\__|_____\\_________//_(__/_______|__x_ _
*____|_\____\____)___`----___--'_____________|__*_ _
d____|__\______________\_______/____________/_|_g_ _
e___|______________/____|_____|__\____________|_o_ _
a___|_____________|____/_______\__\___________|_a_ _
n___|__________/_/____|_________|__\___________|t_ _
s___|_________/_/______\__/\___/____|__________|s_ _
e__|_________/_/________|____|_______|_________|e_ _
x__|__________|_________|____|_______|_________|x_ _
*_d_e_a_n_s_e_x_*_d_e_a_n_s_e_x_*_d_e_a_n_s_e_x_*_


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Important Stuff: Please try to keep posts on topic. Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads. Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said. Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about. Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page) If you want replies to your comments sent to you, consider logging in or creating an account.

All bulk email houses are 'suspicious' (4, Interesting)

Zeinfeld (263942) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718369)

If the person behind the story knew a bit more about the net he would know why every legitimate originator of a lot of emails is going to use an outsourcer and that without exception they are all listed as suspicious by anti-spam types.

The fact is that blacklists are not organized half as well as they would have people believe. If you want to send bulk mail you use an outsourcer because unless you do most of your messages will get classified as junk. Getting round spam filters turns out to be the main technical skill the outsourcers provide.

The problem with spam is that it has got to the point where everything becomes a he-said she-said argument. There is actually no way to know if either side is telling the truth. Try putting up a pro-israeli or pro-palestinian web site and you will find you are blacklisted for spamming before you send out a single email.

All 'outsourced maillers' are listed on blacklists, most of them for good reason. There is absolutely no way that an outsourced email provider can know if an email list provided by a client is legit or spam.

The problem here is that the protocols simply don't work as well as they should. We don't have a way to know who is behaving honestly and who is not. That is a protocol bug. It is fixable but only if we face up to the fact that we need to fix it and get the email providers to deploy whatever changes are necessary.

That is not going to happen in time for the 2004 election. But think of this, until the Internet US politics has been game where you take as much money in bribes from corporate America and then you spend your whole time in office paying back favors. Bush and Cheney are paying back $2000 for every $1 they collected from the super-rich. Next election they plan to spend $200 million. That means another $400 billion to be spent on tax cuts for the super rich when the budget deficit is heading for $700 billion. Don't think you are getting any of that unless you are one of the insider investors. Otherwise you are more likely to find that your investment in Bush reaps the same results as your investment in 'Kenny Boy' Lay's Enron.

Re:All bulk email houses are 'suspicious' (5, Insightful)

notque (636838) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718380)

Getting round spam filters turns out to be the main technical skill the outsourcers provide.

I do not call this a skill. If I make a filter (not a spam filter, an EMAIL FILTER), then I do not want what I am filtering.

That means that you should not attempt to get around my filter to send me what you beileve I would like to recieve.

If I hang up on you, I do not want to buy your product, nor will I ever. Learn from this technique.

Re:Perhaps.... (4, Funny)

notque (636838) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718371)

Perhaps being net saavy means that you know enough to farm it out and not have to:
1) worry about doing it yourself, and
2) being able to blame it on someone else when it all goes badly (or is revealed as spam).


I thought being net saavy meant I had excellent karma on Slashdot, used pine to get my email, and lynx to view the web.

Now I have to start over?... What if I mention linux a few times?

Oh no! (2, Funny)

bersl2 (689221) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718152)

A politician lying! Oh dear!

</sarcasm>

Re:Oh no! (-1, Offtopic)

AntiOrganic (650691) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718171)

Would you rather BE goatse?

If so, would you rather be the giver, the taker, or the loopback?

Re:Oh no! (2, Informative)

bersl2 (689221) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718183)

Err... make that "being hypocritical"---it's almost the same thing.

Still, it's one more example of how technocracy will never come to be.

Re:Oh no! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6718233)

"I dunno about you, but I'd rather look at goatse for the REST OF ETERNITY, than see ONE MORE Windoze Server 2003 ad"

Be honest, if that "We save a nickel" ad (or just about any of the other ads) was for Macs or Linux or *BSD or whatever your favorite OS is, you'd love every second of it.

By the way, spelling it "Windoze" -- now that'll show 'em!

Re:Oh no! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6718264)

You know what, you might be right. After all, I am a Linux zealot-in-training.

Still, there is the undeniable fact that those (and to a lesser extent, all MS commercials) feel like a cheese grater to my ass cheeks. That, and the goatse guy actually makes me laugh. Now if I wanted to gross myself out, I'd have chosen the tubgirl.

Net Savvy. Not (3, Interesting)

rf0 (159958) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718159)

If you want to market this way then at least use a list of people you know who will vote for you, or have requested it. There is no reasons to spam people about this and I wouldn't be surprised that a large number of people who are outside the state or even in another country got it.

Now how can they defend that? Spamming is worse than junkmail as the recipient has to pay rather than the sender. And before anyone say just press the delete key how do you do that on that average 3000 spams I get a month?

Rus

Re:Net Savvy. Not (5, Funny)

c4Ff3In3 4ddiC+ (661808) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718295)

And before anyone say just press the delete key how do you do that on that average 3000 spams I get a month?
Get one of them birdies like Homer Simpson.

Re:Net Savvy. Not (2, Interesting)

notque (636838) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718390)

If you want to market this way then at least use a list of people you know who will vote for you, or have requested it. There is no reasons to spam people about this and I wouldn't be surprised that a large number of people who are outside the state or even in another country got it.

So unless there is a resonable chance you could want the email, don't send it.

Who decides what resonable chance is?

Get a spam filter.

Quite easy... (1)

boaworm (180781) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718165)

All you have to do is to sign up, voila, no more unsolicited emails :-)

Alternatively, you could raise an additional $7.6M for him, so he wont have to send even more mails.

Dept. of Nasty Tricks (4, Interesting)

sphealey (2855) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718169)

It does occur to you that the Dean campaign might not be the ultimate source of that spam? That someone with a few thousand to burn and knowledge of the direct mail industry fired up a dirty tricks campaign to make it look as if the Deaners were responsible? Reference John McCain and the South Carolina "push polls".

Just a thought.

sPh

Re:Dept. of Nasty Tricks (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6718211)

Dunno. I'm on their list, but I don't get emails from them. I get email from the Texas campaign that I also signed up for, but I don't think I've gotten an email from DeanForAmerica since the end of last quarter.

Re:Dept. of Nasty Tricks (5, Informative)

jetlag11235 (605532) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718223)

A link [spamvertized.org] near the bottom of the "technical details" page indicates that Dean was responsible. The page goes on to imply that it was foolish/irresponsible but unintentional.

After the Dean campaign was presented with clear cut evidence as to the nature of emailresponse.net, they investigated promptly and terminated their relationship with the company that same day.

-- jetlag --

Re:Dept. of Nasty Tricks (2, Funny)

CreateWindowEx (630955) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718339)

What? Are you trying to cloud this discussion by presenting the actual facts?

Although to retain that critical "slashdot bloc", Dean should probably also make some sort of public apology, perhaps via another mass e-mailing.

Re:Dept. of Nasty Tricks (5, Insightful)

Dragonfly (5975) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718361)

After the Dean campaign was presented with clear cut evidence as to the nature of emailresponse.net, they investigated promptly and terminated their relationship with the company that same day.



Why wasn't this tidbit of info in the original post? Sounds like the submitter may have had an axe to grind. Slashdot mods should be more vigilant and not allow this kind of thing to slip by, the things at stake are too important.

Re:Dept. of Nasty Tricks (1)

jetlag11235 (605532) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718424)

Agreed. While it is still technically possible that plan all along was to immediately terminate the relationship and claim ignorance, this seems exceedingly unlikely.

And more importantly, as you point out, the non-inclusion of this in the submitter's post (whether intentional or not) is a glaring oversight. Ironically, the OP failed in the same way (a little more research) that Dean (or more likely, Dean's campaign crew) failed in.

-- jetlag --

Re:Dept. of Nasty Tricks (1)

jdunlevy (187745) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718278)

I got this spam too, and my strong suspicion was it was indeed a joe job. I sent a uce complaint to the sending ISP with copies to <uce@ftc.gov> (like that'll help) and <abuse@deanforamerica.com> (also looked to see if there was an easy way to complain via the Web or e-mail to the FEC; there isn't). Unfortunately deanforamerica.com doesn't maintain an Abuse address, so that bounced, and I didn't get around to trying to send it to their Postmaster account. Whether or not it's them sending the e-mail, I'd really like to see the Dean campaign respond -- and to do that, they have to be aware of the problem.

I had thought of that (1)

bluelark (642039) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718282)

but then again, the theory depends on none of the Dean Web team checking server logs and wondering why there are strange referrers for their registration page.

That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

Re:Dept. of Honest Mistakes (5, Informative)

sparrow_hawk (552508) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718312)

I wondered about this as well, but sadly it appears that Dean did at least pay for the marketing campaign. *However*, it also appears that the campaign was duped into thinking that company they contracted with would only send mails to people who opted-in, so they were actually showing a reasonable amount of acumen, and just neglected to run a Google search on the company in question. Oops.

I'm a little unsure of the submitter's motives in posting a two-week old story to Slashdot, because if anyone bothers to read the rest of the blog, they'll note that the Dean campaign severed its ties to the Spamhaus when it was informed about the actions being taken in its name.

More balanced coverage from Spamvertized.org [spamvertized.org]

It looks like an honest mistake, and its a shame that some people will fixate on this misstep.

Re:Dept. of Honest Mistakes (1)

GMontag (42283) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718373)

I was about to say the same thing as the parent. Glad you got on and brought more light to the situation too.

Definately not a Dean supporter here, but things like this can happen to any organization.

Sometimes overzealous supporters can be your greatest enemies.

Re:Dept. of Honest Mistakes (5, Insightful)

donutello (88309) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718403)

Funny how when Orrin Hatch hires another company to run his website and that company violates copyright laws, it's Orrin Hatch's fault and he should be responsible.

But when the allegedly net-savvy Dean does the same, it's an honest mistake.

Two weeks old? Check the headers.... (1)

bluelark (642039) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718435)

The emails I am talking about are dated Thursday, August 14th, 2003 and Friday, August 15th, 2003. Also, I changed the brackets to square so the data inside would so.

Spam 1---
Return-Path: [dean@america.propulsive.net]
Received: from 109.ts8.increments.net ([69.41.70.109])
by bill's mailserver (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id h7EL26R23408
for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 16:02:06 -0500
To: bill's email
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:12:08 -0500
Message-ID: [1060895528.4360@109.ts8.increments.net]
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21)
From: "DeanForAmerica.com" [dean@america.propulsive.net]
Reply-To: "DeanForAmerica.com"[dean@america.propulsive.net]
Subject: Presidential Candidate Gov. Howard Dean, M.D.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Spam 2---
Return-Path: [dean@for.accomplishing.net] Received: from 148.ts8.increments.net ([69.41.70.148])
by bill's mailserver (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id h7FIVpT01949
for ; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 13:31:51 -0500
To: bill's email Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 14:42:07 -0500
Message-ID: [1060972927.7349@148.ts8.increments.net]
X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2us
From: "DeanForAmerica.com" [dean@for.accomplishing.net]
Reply-To: "DeanForAmerica.com" [dean@for.accomplishing.net]
Subject: Presidential Candidate Gov. Howard Dean, M.D.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

arnie, too! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6718178)

even though i live in finland i got an email
with "arnold for governor" or something like that
on the subject line. didn't take a look at the mail
itself. ima trigger happy person when it comes to
spam. ;)

Dean Kamen would never spam... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6718179)

His segway is selling good enough as it is.

spam *and* politics?? -- whoopeee!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6718182)

be sure to use spamgourmet [spamgourmet.com] when you sign up at the Dean site...

Why does a supposedly "net savvy" campaign... (5, Insightful)

Spoticus (610022) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718185)

...even think for one second that this approach is acceptable?"

Probably for the same reasons spammers everywhere continue to do it: some people will click on the pretty colors - they get results.

Re:Why does a supposedly "net savvy" campaign... (1, Offtopic)

notque (636838) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718420)

Probably for the same reasons spammers everywhere continue to do it: some people will click on the pretty colors - they get results.

Do you really think he was being malicious as opposed to someone in his team being moronic?

Who is calling the Dean Campaign 'Net Savvy'? (5, Insightful)

Neologic (48268) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718187)

Look at who is calling the Dean campaign savvy- its mostly political journalists. Do we really think they are qualified to label someone net savvy? Just because Dean supports use Meetup.com does not mean the campaign is net savvy. Heck, most politicians aren't even politically savvy...

Re:Who is calling the Dean Campaign 'Net Savvy'? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6718271)

Think about it harder, please.

They refer to him as Net savvy not because of his technological prowess (please, he's a 50-something year old man -- he's a doctor, not a computer scientist, OK?). They do it because the Net freaks like him. Face it, a bunch of us Net freaks are liberals and gays and he's the candidate who supports gay rights.

Spamming would shatter that support.

What they mean is (1)

autopr0n (534291) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718327)

The dean campaign has been doing a very good job of using the net to build their grass roots, not that Howard Dean knows how to configure a Cisco router, or whatever.

Re:Who is calling the Dean Campaign 'Net Savvy'? (1)

jdunlevy (187745) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718356)

Look at who is calling the Dean campaign savvy- its mostly political journalists
Well, the story refers to a bit [siliconvalley.com] by Dan Gillmor [siliconvalley.com] , who is a technology columnist, not a political journalist.

Dean Campaigners are Net Savvy (4, Interesting)

Phoenix666 (184391) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718367)

I am part of the Dean campaign here in Brooklyn, and I am qualified to label the campaign net savvy. Over the past 6 years I've built massive e-commerce sites, B2B, non-profit, and many other sorts of web-projects. I used to work with asp/sql server, now mostly in L.A.M.P. And I'm not the only one. Three-quarters of the people in the campaign work in tech or internet-related professions, from coders to DBAs to sysadmins to designers to information architects. Furthermore, almost without exception all of those people use OSS. Yes, OSS, the same constituency as those who read /. In fact, through /. I have accidentally stumbled upon other Dean campaigners, and through the Dean campaign I have accidentally stumbled upon other /.-ers. If that doesn't define a net-savvy campaign, then I defy you to come up with a better definition.

But even without that, using Meetup and MoveOn, blogs and online contributions does make you net-savvy, because it is ground-breaking and it is working. They have used the internet as a tool to organize, raise money, and turn Dean from a little-known name into the front runner in the democratic field. That, my friend, makes you net savvy. Measure that against Bush, who won't even let you email him anymore.

Re:Who is calling the Dean Campaign 'Net Savvy'? (4, Interesting)

sparrow_hawk (552508) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718395)

Ehrm... (not connected w/ the Dean campaign or any other in any way, shape, or form -- I'm just an interested observer :)...

Have you looked at deanforamerica.com [deanforamerica.com] ? I'd say that site is a good indicator of Internet-awareness. The man has a *blog* [blogforamerica.com] , for crying out loud! Actually, all the Democratic candidates are trying to capitalize on the Internet, which is IMHO a Good Thing, though it's taking some of them longer than others.

Contrast Dean's site with Bush's [georgewbush.com] (ooh, shiney) for a good illustration of why the former is considered "net-savvy." (yes i know incumbents don't need to mobilize as early as challengers, yes i know Bush's site is a "temporary site," but Dean's campaign is still a masterful example of how to mobilize the internet community. i long for the day when the *president* writes a daily weblog.)

Oh, and if you think Dean is another Democrat who is against everything Slashdotters hold dear, check out some of his posts [lessig.org] on Lawrence Lessig's blog [lessig.org] . (Kucinich has some interesting things to say here [lessig.org] as well. He's even pro-GPL!)

Well.... (2, Insightful)

Judg3 (88435) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718189)

"Why does a supposedly "net savvy" campaign even think for one second that this approach is acceptable?"

Well, here it is on slashdot - and probably will end up being posted on numerous other sites, blogs, etc.

And as the old saying goes "Any publicity, is good publicity"

Re:Well.... (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6718208)

No.

This kind of publicity is not good. The Dean campaign has been severely aided by its Net characteristics and advantage, or so they say. By alienating the Internet audience, this is not good publicity. Which is, frankly, why I don't think they've been spamming.

Too dumb.

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the subject of the email (1)

McAddress (673660) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718205)

If he becomes president, Howard Dean will make your online experience easier by going after spammers.

spam and politics (1)

LLWhipist (524663) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718207)

Was there really a shock to find that politics was blending with spam?

Soon we'll wind up getting spammed right before elections, people offering penis enlargement for votes.

Re:spam and politics (2, Insightful)

Sleen (73855) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718333)

Exactly. Political solicitation is spam. And in our society the most aggressive spammer wins.

I think the itch here is how email systems get mucked up.

The Dean campaign is lean and mean so we should expect their auditing to be lackluster. Its not surprising that in the course of pulling favors they end up enlisting some information mercenaries.

But as a heads up they should probably keep things simple and clean. Participate in respected forums and maybe court some intelligent folks from around here to help them out.

He failed to do one thing (2, Insightful)

rzbx (236929) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718212)

Why hasn't he emailed those running the campaign and ask them if they are working with eScriptions.net and if they are, if they know about the spam?

First things first, ask the accused. If they admit to it, then you don't have to waste all the time on researching it. If any other answer, then the research could be done to verify the answer.

Consider this (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6718214)

It does occur to you that the Dean campaign might not be the ultimate source of that spam? That someone with a few thousand to burn and knowledge of the direct mail industry fired up a dirty tricks campaign to make it look as if the Deaners were responsible? I get naked every saturday and fuck Rand McNally. Reference John McCain and the South Carolina "push polls".

Just a thought.

Re:Consider this (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6718231)

"Just a thought."

From you? Doubtful.

Just proves (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6718217)

That the campaign is as clueless as the man himself.

Political speech protected (1)

sabinm (447146) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718229)

while i do not condone the using of spam relays to further political goals, I think it would be quite a dangerous thing to try to regulate such speech on the internet. the truth is that few candidates can afford airtime to campaign, while the internet and email can provide a low barrier of entry to the political process. this is a way to level the playing field and get out additional voices on issues and policies.

Speech yes, Hacking no (1)

autopr0n (534291) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718342)

Using an open relay, or even worse an open proxy to send spam is not "speech" it's destructive hacking. If they want to send email, they should send it from their own machines. And, they should live with being black-listed or whatever.

Re:Political speech protected (1)

Sleen (73855) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718387)

So why doesn't slashdot do an `Ask the candidates' and open the discourse to some moderation?

It would be interesting to see Dean and Bush come by and debate the issues.

Because we are so sure it would be their voice and their answers.

I don't think protecting political speech can protect political spam. If the candidates have something to say, they should do it with respect and decency.

Also remember that Dean is the only one really operating in the internet. If he had competition (more spam), his spam wouldn't look so bad.

Is political speech spam? (2, Interesting)

John Seminal (698722) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718237)

Spam to me is all those emails about porn sites, viagra, college degrees, and all the other unwanted crap that ends up in my inbox.

If we did not have any spam, the kinds listed above, would anyone complain about emails from persons running for public office?

I think one of the most important jobs a citizen has is to review the candidates running for office and pick the best one. To that end, I do not think an email here or there about something important is a bad thing.

Then again, I guess those of us who are interested in politics could sign up with the individual campaigns to recieve emails.

The one thing I think everyone can agree on, is do not use known spammers. Do not validate what they do, so they can later say they deliver important speech.

Re:Is political speech spam? (1)

meringuoid (568297) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718321)

If we did not have any spam, the kinds listed above, would anyone complain about emails from persons running for public office?

Yes. I don't want to pay, through my ISP bill, for some politician to spew forth his propaganda. When he puts up posters, he pays; when he takes out newspaper advertisements, he pays; when he spams, I pay, and that's the chief problem.

Re:Is political speech spam? (1)

AntiOrganic (650691) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718332)

Feel free to sign up for as many mailing lists as you want but leave my mailbox alone. I get pissed off enough by television commercials mudslinging. I don't need a virtual war being waged in my inbox.

You strive to set a dangerous precedent.

Re:Is political speech spam? (1)

John Seminal (698722) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718374)

Everyone knows that political speech is different than the other spam we get. Some may call it propoganda, but these people do get elected and them we will really have to pay. I think political speech is important and should not be grouped with spam.

The other reason why I think political speech should not be considered spam is because it would allow other candidates without the big bucks to run for office.

Re:Is political speech spam? (1)

Tsu Dho Nimh (663417) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718418)

"I think one of the most important jobs a citizen has is to review the candidates running for office and pick the best one. To that end, I do not think an email here or there about something important is a bad thing."

How about campaign emails from a city council election sent to non-residents of the city ... I've recieved many campaign emails from cities I have never heard of in states I have never visited. I get political spam for congressional races in states I can't vote in. It's spam.

How about political emails sent to citizens of other countries? Was that political rah-rah letter from Brazil NOT spam? Is the Dean letter not spam wheh it's sent to a Canadian or a Finn?

YES (5, Insightful)

donutello (88309) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718427)

I think one of the most important jobs a citizen has is to review the candidates running for office and pick the best one. To that end, I do not think an email here or there about something important is a bad thing.

How does this crap get modded up? Any unsolicited, mass, annoying contact is spam. Why would you even think that it is ok to send someone email that they may or may not care about?

Then again, I guess those of us who are interested in politics could sign up with the individual campaigns to recieve emails.
Duh.

I don't want some politician to decide what is important for me to know. I know how to seek out information I am interested in, thank you.

Foreigners geting the email? (1)

deragon (112986) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718238)

You sure can call this spam if foreigners (non american residing outside the US) get the email. Anybody outside the US got this email? Or did they get hold of list of americain only emails?

Sad but true. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6718239)


Why does a supposedly "net savvy" campaign even think for one second that this approach is acceptable?"
Same reason our "Foreign Relations-savvy" government thought invading Iraq was acceptable?

The answer is:
It's not about how you get seen; just get seen.

Why? (1)

Ars-Fartsica (166957) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718244)

Why does Dean use spammers to get elected? Why did Karl Marx work from London, the heart of the capitalism he despised? Why does Noam Chomsky work out of MIT, the bastion of the establishment mentality he is trying to dismebowel? You must sibvert the system from the inside, that is why.

Re:Why? (1)

bj8rn (583532) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718300)

I make the wild guess that you were joking, as I don't understand what system would someone try to subvert by spamming. The only answer I can come up with is that someone might try and ridicule the current democratic system this way - by showing how easy it is to brainwash people (the European equivalent of this may be the pro-EU campaign the Lithuanian government did...). But I don't see why should he do that...

It Works (2, Interesting)

MrBiiggy (458829) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718246)

Why does a supposedly "net savvy" campaign even think for one second that this approach is acceptable?
Because it works, no matter how trivial it might be.

You have to consider .... (1)

Usagi_yo (648836) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718248)

Why does a supposedly "net savvy" campaign even think for one second that this approach is acceptable?"

Who annointed him "net savvy"? I mean like unless Kibo declared him "net savvy", he's just another spammer.

Howard Dean Cocksucker Spam (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6718253)

This is the spam I got from Howard, the dumb fuckhole. I'm not even IN america so I can't vote against his piece of shit ass
From DeanforAmerica.com<deanfame9@mail.optin-broadcast. com>
Subject [spam] Presidential Candidate Gov. Howard Dean, M.D.

Dear Friend,

Our campaign is about restoring the American community and our nation's traditional role as an idealistic moral force in world affairs. Over 280,000 Americans have already joined our campaign, and these Americans have demonstrated again and again that the grassroots has the power to beat back the special interests and regain control of the process of self-government. In eight days in June, our grassroots campaign did just that--helping to raise over $7.6 million in the second quarter of this year and shaking the Democratic nominating process to the core. You can join over 280,000 other Americans who are taking our country back by clicking on the link below
Register Now!

This month, the Bush Administration has continued to make it harder for working families to put food on the table. While George W. Bush takes the entire month of August off in Texas, his administration is seeking to eliminate the right of more than 8 million American workers to receive overtime pay.

Click below to sign a petition telling the Bush Administration that Americans deserve fair pay for more than a full day's work

Save Overtime Now!

I stood against this President when too many Democrats in Congress were voting to give the Bush administration a blank check to wage pre-emptive war on Iraq. Attacking Iraq was the wrong war at the wrong time, and in recent days it has become obvious that many questions remain about the way President Bush led the American people to war and failed to foresee the continuing resistance that our military is now confronting. These questions should have been asked by Congress before the war, but too many in Washington failed to demand the truth when our nation needed it most.

Too many in my party have failed to stand up to this President's assault on our ideals. I am not afraid to stand up to President Bush. I stood against his attack on Iraq. I did not support his huge tax cuts. I did not support the misnamed "No Child Left Behind Act," which is raising property taxes all over America and bankrupting our public school system. Unlike all but one of my opponents, I have balanced a budget and I have appointed judges-- and I am the only candidate for the Democratic nomination who has made health care available to 99% of the children and 90% of the adults in my state.

We are going to win this nomination and defeat George W. Bush in 2004, but we need your help. Our campaign has shown that the individual actions of each of us, when united in common cause with the actions of thousands of others, have the power to transform our nation. We are leading in California, Iowa and New Hampshire. We are tied for the lead in the latest national poll. We are the great grassroots campaign of the modern era, built from mouse pads, shoe leather and hope. I hope you have seen one of the articles about my candidacy in this week's Time, Newsweek and US News and World Report.

Please join us, and pass this email along to all of your friends who believe, as you do, that we must act now to take back America.

Join us at http//www.deanforamerica.com/registrese

Thank you,

Governor Howard Dean, M.D.

Paid for by Dean for America

The following message was sent to you by SuperEmailBargains.com

Our objective is to only communicate with audiences who would like to hear
from us and take advantage of our offers. If you would like to be removed
from our list, please click on the unsubscribe link below
http//www.superemailbargains.com/unsubscrib e.html

To unsubscribe by postal mail, please send your request to
SuperEmailBargains.com
PO Box 522148
Miami, Fl. 33152-2148
Attn Fulfillment Department

Have we learned nothing from Nixon? (1, Troll)

Funksaw (636954) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718262)

This is probably just the opposition doing general ratfucking in the spirit of Donald Segretti and all the other Nixon Dirty Tricksters. I doubt they'd go about spamming people directly after the problems with the Texas email. Yes, the Dean Campaign is net-savvy - they have to be. That's the core of their support, that's the source of their fundraising, that's the general nature of the beast. Like it or not, Dean's core consituancy are those that care about YRO. -- Funksaw

Go Dean ... Just leave my KazaaLite alone ... (1, Insightful)

leoaugust (665240) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718275)

I am not trying to make a big statement or something, but just a personal statement .... which is ... as long as Mr. Dean agrees to stay of my KazaaLite sharing, I agree to stay out of his spamming ...

Mr. Bush will have $170 million to fight his campaign .... and as most of his Rangers and Pioneers get him $100,000 and $200,000, he doesn't need to spam them - he just invites them over for barbeque ...

Mr. Dean needs all those other folks who ain't got a couple hundred grand to give away to the Chief Thief ... as long as his campaign respects the opt-out of his emailing list, I think he should do what it takes ....

If after Sept 11 we have woken up in Mr. Bush's "New" world where liberties can be screwed at the drop of a hat, maybe we have also woken up in this political world of spamming ... phew; maybe I am going a little too far ...

ok ... I am just playing the spoiler ... but sometimes my intense hatred of all the members of the Lunatics Club of Donald Rumsfeld gets the better of me .. . and almost makes me wanna say - Dean, hit me with an another spam. Doh.

Dean hasn't earned it. (-1, Flamebait)

Gates_throws_tantrum (415905) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718285)

Bush ended the recession in 2001 and defeated 2 of our declared enemies in less than 18 months. Thank God for the activist President that is George W. Bush.

Its politics, morals are optional (1)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718288)

Come on, if you really have to ask these questions, then you dont understand politics.

Its all about telling people what they want to hear, so you get elected. Then start work on YOUR agenda, not your voters.. Which normally involves sucking more money out of them while reducing their rights.

Ah, spam, politics, and good ol' capitalism (2, Interesting)

Rho17 (193893) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718301)

Kinda funny to load slashdot and see this article, as not even five minutes ago I checked my email and found some spam with an e-mail tracking redirect to http://www.arnold-2003.com/ trying to get me to buy a t-shirt...

Maybe, or (2, Interesting)

autopr0n (534291) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718306)

Maybe anti-dean people are simply sending 'fake' Spam in order to discredit his campaign. Hopefully someone from the dean campaign can clear this up.

The other possibility is that this might actually work. They are probably sending messages to 'known democrats' who signed their emails when they registered for the party or whatever (I live in IA and I've been getting a lot of calls from democrats and pollsters on my Cell, which they must have gotten from my registration).

Btw, just to defend the fact that I'm actually 'registered' to a political party. I liked both McCain and Bill Bradley (who ran against Gore in '2000), but the democratic primary was closer to my dorm room (the republican one was all the way across campus) and I figured there was a better chance of meeting a hot chick at the dem. Primary. Also, a friend of mine knew a guy working on the Bradley campaign so we were invited to the campaign HQ in Des Moines after the vote, which was kind of cool.

In fact, I did meet a really hot chick and she decided to come up to Des Moines with us, which was pretty cool.

It also worked out well, as I fucking hate bush.

Basically (2, Insightful)

notque (636838) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718323)

His intentions are well founded, but he has a large staff of people who make decisions for him. One of them probably thought it was indicitive of his "net savy" reputation to use online mail as a form of campaigning.

Sounds resonable.

I don't think he's net savy, as much as he is resonable to needs to the internet generation, or more than likely using this as the thing to set him a part, and make him a great canidate for president if the stock in people caring about the internet grows.

Yee Haw.

political exemption? (1)

Datasage (214357) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718326)

The national do not call list has an exemption for political orginizations. Allowing them to make calls without fallowing the do not call list. I wonder if the dean campain is trying to kinda of claim the same exemption with this.

As far as esubscritions goes i dont think they harvest address by scouring the web. They just collected address through sweepstakes or agreements with other sites. I might be wrong though.

duh! (0, Troll)

Ender Ryan (79406) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718347)

Because he's still just a politician and the friendly face he puts forward is just a mask?

Have you folks learned nothing? Did you think for a second this guy was anything else? Want to buy a bridge?

Nothing new... (1)

jon_eccleston (591876) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718348)

I was recently hit by a flood of spam asking me to vote for Mr. Schwarzenegger. I'm way over here in England, and couldn't vote for him even if I wanted to.

Whoever it's from or whatever it's advertising, my spam goes to SpamCop [spamcop.net] .

campaign spamming (5, Interesting)

Gryftir (161058) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718377)

Suprise, the Bush II relection machine also spammed. You can see it here on Cryptome. [cryptome.org]

The difference? Dean for America stopped working with the spamming company the same day. Did Bush-Cheney '04 Inc. ? No, However, after cryptome posted the e-mail, the email used in the spam was unsubscribed from the list, and an automatic confirmatory e-mail sent. This despite the fact that John, who runs Cryptome, never subscribed, and never sent in an e-mail requesting to be unsubscribed. There is no evidence that the unsolicited e-mailing has been stopped.

It's easy to say Dean for America isn't net-savvy. I mean they sent out some unsolicted e-mail right? But how many companies stop using spam once they realize what their marketing department was doing?

How many do it the same day? Bush, despite a record breaking campaign warchest still is soliciting by spam. Dean isn't. That tells me who is savvy.

Gryftir

Dean found out and stopped doing business w/ them (1)

KenFury (55827) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718378)

http://www.spamvertized.org/2004/dean-emailresults .html

It's on the second paragraph.

Personaly I think it's ok to make a mistake as long as you "fix" it and are fairly open about it.

Lt. Calley Defense? (2, Insightful)

pcaylor (648195) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718384)

It was necessary to destroy your privacy in order to save it?

I can't help but imagine what the reaction among the YRO crowd would be if this had been the Bush campaign.

STOP FOR A MINUTE AND THINK... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6718388)

Has anyone stopped for a minute to consider the POSSIBILITY that someone ELSE might be doing this to cause controversy or discredit Mr. Dean?

MAYBE MAYBE? PERHAPS? Think about it folks...

This has already been resolved. (5, Informative)

fvdl (263763) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718396)

If you had bothered to check the page that you actually link to yourself here [spamvertized.org] , you had seen that this already was resolved (5 days ago by the looks of it). To quote: "After the Dean campaign was presented with clear cut evidence as to the nature of emailresponse.net, they investigated promptly and terminated their relationship with the company that same day."

I don't know if Dean is e-spamming, but.... (1)

WormholeFiend (674934) | more than 10 years ago | (#6718434)

This weekend, I've seen a few people wearing "Vote Howard Dean" t-shirts. Now this wouldn't be out of the ordinary if I had not seen those people in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada...

Evil PR Firms (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6718439)

I work for a place that hired a pr firm. Without our knowledge, they spammed the world. We dropped them immediately, but the damage was done...it's entirely possible for the company getting the message out to use undesirable methods without the client knowing.
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