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The Unstoppable Shift of IT Jobs Overseas

michael posted more than 10 years ago | from the adapt-or-die dept.

Editorial 1084

514x0r writes "The spectre in the back of many of our minds is that in a few years we may be replaced by an underpaid programmer in India. Newsforge.com is currently running an article about why this is unstoppable, that actually ends on a positive note...sort of." Newsforge and Slashdot are both part of OSDN.

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GNAA Announces acquisition of SCO (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6829783)

GNAA Announces acquisition of SCO
By Tim Copperfield
New York, NY - GNAA (Gay Nigger Association of America) today announced acquisition of The SCO Group [yahoo.com] for $26.9 million in stock and $40 million in gay niggers.

GNAA today announced it has signed a definitive agreement to acquire the intellectual property and technology assets of The SCO Group, a leading provider of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt, based in Lindon, Utah. GNAA's acquisition of SCO technology will help GNAA sign up more members worldwide. In addition to developing new solutions, GNAA will use SCO engineering expertise and technology to enhance the GNAA member services.

"I'd love to see these GNAA types slowly consumed by millions of swarming microbes and converted into harmless and useful biochemicals." said an anonymous slashdot poster, blinded by the GNAA success in achieving first post on a popular geek news website, slashdot.org [slashdot.org].

"This GNAA shit is getting out of hand. Slashdot needs troll filters. Or better yet a crap flood mod that I can exclude from my browsing. Seriously, a good troll is art, what you dumb fucks are doing is just plain stupid." said spacecowboy420.

macewan, on linuxquestions [linuxquestions.org] said "Thanks for that link to the SCO quotes page. My guess is that they want to be bought out. Hrm, think they want GNAA to buy them??"

After careful consideration and debate, GNAA board of directors agreed to purchase 6,426,600 preferred shares and 113,102 common shares (the equivalent of 150,803 ADSs) of SCO, for an aggregate consideration of approximately US$26.9 million and approximately $40 million for gay niggers that were working in Lindon, Utah offices of The SCO Group.

If all goes well, the final decision is to be expected shortly, followed by transfer of most SCO niggers from their Lindon, UT offices to the GNAA Headquarters in New York.

About GNAA
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If you are having trouble locating #GNAA, the official GAY NIGGER ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA irc channel, you might be on a wrong irc network. The correct network is EFNet, and you can connect to irc.secsup.org or irc.isprime.com as one of the EFNet servers.
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About SCO
The SCO Group [SCOX [yahoo.com]] helps millions of gay niggers in more than 82 countries around the world grow their penises everyday. Headquartered in Lindon, Utah, SCO has a network of more than 11,000 nigger resellers and 8,000 developers. SCO Global Services provides reliable nigger support and services to prospective members and customers.
SCO and the associated SCO logo are trademarks or registered trademarks of The SCO Group, Inc. in the U.S. and other countries. UNIX and UnixWare are registered trademarks of The Open Group in the United States and other countries. All other brand or product names are or may be trademarks of their respective owners.

This news release contains forward-looking statements that involve risks, uncertainties and assumptions. All statements other than statements of historical fact are statements that could be deemed forward-looking statements. These statements are based on management's current expectations and are subject to uncertainty and changes in circumstances. Actual results may vary materially from the expectations contained herein. The forward-looking statements contained herein include statements about the consummation of the transaction with SCO and benefits of the pending transaction with SCO. Factors that could cause actual results to differ materially from those described herein include the inability to obtain regulatory approvals and the inability to successfully integrate the SCO business. GNAA is under no obligation to (and expressly disclaims any such obligation to) update or alter its forward-looking statements, whether as a result of new information, future events or otherwise.


If you have mod points and would like to support GNAA, please moderate this post up.

________________________________________________
| ______________________________________._a,____ |
| _______a_._______a_______aj#0s_____aWY!400.___ |
| __ad#7!!*P____a.d#0a____#!-_#0i___.#!__W#0#___ |
| _j#'_.00#,___4#dP_"#,__j#,__0#Wi___*00P!_"#L,_ |
| _"#ga#9!01___"#01__40,_"4Lj#!_4#g_________"01_ |
| ________"#,___*@`__-N#____`___-!^_____________ |
| _________#1__________?________________________ |
| _________j1___________________________________ |
| ____a,___jk_GAY_NIGGER_ASSOCIATION_OF_AMERICA_ |
| ____!4yaa#l___________________________________ |
| ______-"!^____________________________________ |
` _______________________________________________'

AN IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT (-1)

JismTroll (588456) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829797)

I had a firm and grandular poop today. I was very constipated, and the majority of my dump was a thick, long, juicy turd with lots of gas. It fell very slowly out of my quivering balloon knot of love, but as it massaged my prostate with its textured ribbed-like nodules I got an immense, rock-hard raging boner and began to beat off before the turd was even halfway out.

Green mustache? (4, Funny)

ogre2112 (134836) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829801)

"corporate biggies outside of software companies tend to consider their IT people as somewhat ... strange ... more often than not. This is not a new phenomenon. I remember a guy who worked as a mainframe tech for a bank back in the late '60s who went by the name "Paul the Prophet," and had a dyed-green mustache."

Ok, that's just hilarious.

Re:Green mustache? (1, Flamebait)

tekspot (531917) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829837)

American programmers and other IT people were outstandingly unsympathetic when factory workers' jobs started going overseas 30 or 40 years ago

Newsflash: THERE WAS NO IT INDUSTRY 30 OR 40 YEARS AGO, YOU FRUITCAKE!!!

Re:Green mustache? (2, Insightful)

tomstdenis (446163) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829860)

I think they meant the math/ee people that would become the CS lords....

>:-)

Tom

Re:Green mustache? (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6829895)

There were IT people then. For example, in the early 60's we had an IBM 360 at the University of Waterloo and even had our own Fortran interpreter (WatFor which was soon replaced by the improved version, WatFive). Who do you think was running it?

In the long run, it was good for our society that the factory workers' jobs went overseas, and it will be good for us if tech jobs do as well. We end up getting more produced for less labor. It just sucks in the short term for the people who watch their jobs go away. But in the end, we'll have to find other jobs, so the country benefits from our old job being done and us working at a new job. Why should we expect people who are not affected to be sympathetic?

Re:Green mustache? (0, Insightful)

tekspot (531917) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829941)

Once again, I think at that "30 or 40 years ago" there was no IT INDUSTRY !!!

It was not until much later, when IT Industry appeared. At that time, it was just a beginning, very rare instance of this type of business, that by no means could be called INDUSTRY !!!

Re:Green mustache? (1, Insightful)

sholden (12227) | more than 10 years ago | (#6830013)

You introduced the "industry" word.

Do you often pretend people said something they didn't so that you can disagree with them? You must be great to be around.

Re:Green mustache? (1)

crmartin (98227) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829907)

Really? Gee, I wonder where I was working, then? I sure thought it was IT.

Well, really, we called it "data processing" then, but same thing.

Re:Green mustache? (1)

pphrdza (635063) | more than 10 years ago | (#6830007)

Well...tell us, then. Did you sympathize with the laid-off factory workers?

We need some reality checks here. Real life memories to defend (or destroy) the article.

Go ahead. This is /.

What's the worst you could be modded?

Re:Green mustache? (1)

nettdata (88196) | more than 10 years ago | (#6830006)

Ok, that's just hilarious.

Never thought you'd see your super-hero moniker or your stylin' grooming habits mentioned in a story, did ya?

;)

For Quality purposes (-1, Offtopic)

Gizzmonic (412910) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829802)

Posts may be randomly modded or recorded.

Your post is important to Slashdot. Cmdrtaco cares about you.

Bad? (3, Insightful)

WatertonMan (550706) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829810)

This is only bad if you simply want to be told what to do and want to remain the computer equivalent of a "manufacturing laborer."

If, instead, you see this as an opportunity to start your own company, become proactive, and actively be more creative, then this isn't a bad thing. It provides labor for small businesses that they could otherwise not afford. (We were able to hire excellent programmers for half the cost) Further, if you are an excellent programmer in a specialized field, then you aren't going to have much trouble anyway. People will seek you out. We do.

So contribute to Opensource software. Get your name out there.

But if you think that you can just "punch the card" then in my opinion you deserve what you get. And if you think you can stay in California, well, good luck unless you figure a way to build the better mousetrap that everyone wants.

Re:Bad? (0, Troll)

EvilTwinSkippy (112490) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829882)

Screw 'em. Open source is going to do to Shrink-Crap software what Shrink-Crap software did to mainframes.

Customer: Ok, I need a system to track sales in my coffee shop.

Evil IT provider: For $600 I can give you a copy of Starbuck's Lite. Of course, you have to buy your own SQL server for 2000. But it does include 15 minutes of tech support!

Open Source Provider: For $600 I'll write you a custom system that will run on that (blows dust off) PC. And I live down the street if you need fixes.

Re:Bad? (4, Insightful)

jmccay (70985) | more than 10 years ago | (#6830021)

How is this insightful? This is clueless. This just shows how little you know about the current unemployment situation!
Excellent programmers get lost in the stack of 500 or more other resumes that get sent to the company within the first 2 hours that a job is posted!
The problem is not limited to California. I live in Southern NH, and Southern NH & Northern Mass has a lot of unemployed Programmers/Software Engineers/Software Developers, IT people, and other tech related people.
Usually, the person who gets hired (70% to 80% of the time) is the person who had a friend or relative in the company. It's called networking, and it has nothing to do with computers or skills. As long as you might fit the bill you can get in.
The other thing you failed to mention is that most start ups fail in the first year. Half of the rest fail in the next few years.
I REALLY hope you don't have to experience the current unemployment problem from a first hand perspective.
I should mention that contracting is as much an option as it used to be because a lot of contracting shops are being under bid by foriegn labor too. I know people who work for some.

A few more jobs gone... (-1, Redundant)

emacnabber (682085) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829811)

There should be about 300 unemployed SCO thugs in the next little bit. That's 300 jobs I wouldn't mind seeing leave the US...

Advocates of freedom don't advocate this. (5, Insightful)

CowBovNeal (672450) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829814)

And you're a bloody hypocrite if you do.

All you accomplish through getting the government involved to prevent outsourcing is hurting a hundred people through higher prices for the sake of one person.

You don't have a right to an IT job. If you have one, great. Make sure you have skills that are so valuable that you won't be outsourced. If you can't do that, then find another line of work, you lazy bastard. Should the government have done something to protect operators of horse drawn buggies that were put out of business when cars came to the market?

I was thinking about going into IT. The recent fad of outsourcing makes me rethink my priorities. I don't want to benefit by causing prices to rise beyond free market levels and screwing my fellow citizens who have little to do with this.

When Microsoft pleaded that the GPL would destroy their ability to make money, someone responded, "Tough. Adapt or die."

So, to those IT workers who feel they're being cheated by having something taken from them, when in fact they did not have an inherent right to what they have:

Tough. Adapt or die. Offer something in America in IT that foreigners cannot offer or find some other line of business. I refuse to support people who want to screw me.

Economic illiteracy like this is the reason why we get screwed by the Republicans and the Democrats so often. Quoting John "Candy" Keynes. Sheesh.

Re:Advocates of freedom don't advocate this. (2, Insightful)

agurkan (523320) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829924)

You are not being fair. Big corporations, and in general the rich class, are continuously being subsidized by the government in US. It is not adapt or die. The environment is changing faster than we can adapt, we do not have lobbying power or PR money to change the environment to our needs, Microsoft does.
Every human being has a right to live a decent life. You do not have to earn it, if it is denied to you by underpaying for your abilities, yes! you are being cheated.
All you accomplish through getting the government involved to prevent outsourcing is hurting a hundred people through higher prices for the sake of one person.
Who are these hundreds of people? You think software companies or any other big corporation pass the savings to customers or compotent workers? How is the weather on your planet?

Re:Advocates of freedom don't advocate this. (0, Flamebait)

Compuser (14899) | more than 10 years ago | (#6830023)

"Every human being has a right to live a decent life."

Huh? Where did that come from? I mean, UN has passed
a laughably broad and unrealistic human rights
convention but I don't remember even that piece
of toilet paper having such a right there. That
would seem to be from the crazy liberal approach
to life along the lines of "great society" and other
misguided political hubris that almost bancrupted
the US before Reagan.

Re:Advocates of freedom don't advocate this. (1)

randyest (589159) | more than 10 years ago | (#6830028)

Big corporations, and in general the rich class, are continuously being subsidized by the government in US.

How is this possible? Since government doesn't produce, it gets all of its income from the people and companies whop pay taxes. Coproprations and rich people pay the vast majority of all taxes in the US. Sow how again, exactly, does the government subsidize corps and the rich while the corps and rich simultanously subsidize the government? Are you suggesting that the poor, who pay little or no (or negative!) taxes, somehow subsidize corporations and the rich?

Please explain. This is neither troll nor flamebait; I am curious.

Re:Advocates of freedom don't advocate this. (3, Insightful)

DoctorPepper (92269) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829939)

Get off of your bloody high-horse, asshole. I'll bet your job hasn't been out-sourced to India, China or Korea yet.

This is all about profit. The corporations want to make more profit, and the way to do it is to get rid of expensive American workers and get cheap over-sea's labor. Your skills don't mean squat to them. There's no such thing as being so valuable that you can't be replaced by three Indian programmers that cost the company less combined than your salary did.

Wake the fuck up and start doing something about it before we're all working at Wal-Mart or McDonald's.

Re:Advocates of freedom don't advocate this. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6829964)

"Wake the fuck up and start doing something about it before we're all working at Wal-Mart or McDonald's."

How come nobody ever frames this in terms of going to China or India? To teach IT? Or English? Or Math?

Re:Advocates of freedom don't advocate this. (1)

Henry V .009 (518000) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829961)

Buying domestic (which would include goods made by Americans -- therefore fighting outsourcing), or creating tariffs to that effect, is actually more defensible than you make it out to be. You see, much of the perceived price increase at the consumer end is actually in taxes to the government, which then goes on and provides services to its citizens. As long as the taxes are going to your government, that is not such a bad deal. But if a government comes along, and by slashing these services (or having a third world standard of living) creates a good that is less expensive to the end-consumer, the consumer will be paying a tax to that foreign government which will provide no return of services. Moreover, wealth is leaving the local economy, and will probably not be used to buy local consumables. I do not think that I even need to get into the current account deficit here.

"Stop SCO" on EFF page (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6829976)


http://action.eff.org/action/index.asp?step=2&it em =2775

Re:Advocates of freedom don't advocate this. (1)

gammoth (172021) | more than 10 years ago | (#6830022)

I'm wondering if anyone but you is dependent on your income for food and shelter.

I'm guessing no one but you. When you have dependents, that whole 'adapt or die' mentality sort of loses its convenience appeal.

But if I'm wrong and you do have dependents, I'd have to say you're independently wealthy and believe the poor are poor due to their own faults or you're one callous bastard. I'm willing to entertain other alternatives.

YOU CAN HAVE ANY JOB YOU WANT! (3, Insightful)

thoolie (442789) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829816)

Well, maybe not any job you want, but if you are willing to work, you will never be without a job. There are always going to be jobs for people who are willing to work. It may not be the job you want, but there will always be work. Sometimes you need more education, sometimes you need to make changes in your life, but you you are willing to do it, you will always have a job.

Furthermore, if you are good at your job (and by good, i mean REAL GOOD), you will never have to worry about job security.

And, as a friend once told me, "You can always make more money, but you can not make more time!"

Just some food for thought!

Unstoppable? (2, Insightful)

zippity8 (446412) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829817)

Seems to me that the title of the post contradicts the end of the article itself!

Your next "IT job" may be in an industry you didn't even think about a few years ago. It may be in a place you never thought of as an "IT mecca." But if you have solid skills, whether as an entry level programmer or sysadmin or as a top-level IT manager or CIO, some company out there almost certainly needs someone just like you. The trick is finding that company -- but that's another article for another day.

Although in the end, I hate to say it, but this looks like its still based on speculation and hope rather than any empirical evidence.

Optimisim? (3, Insightful)

TheKubrix (585297) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829821)

Ever noticed /. NEVER has a positive article about the IT industry?

I guess bad news always sells more copies.

Re:Optimisim? (1)

zippity8 (446412) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829838)

Hah!

You can enjoy your faux-reality.... I'm off for a second helping of motivation to get off my arse and get something done! ;)

Re:Optimisim? (0, Troll)

GigsVT (208848) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829937)

Because Slashdot is generally about destroying the "IT Industry" as we know it today. That's the point of free software.

That's a good thing, for most of us at least. Like that Red Hat guy said, "We want to take a multi-billion dollar market, and turn it into a multi-million dollar market".

Most of us believe that writing software shouldn't be something that is done once, then marketed forever. We care more about the quality of software, and we believe in the inherent economic worthlessness of something that can be infinitely copied.

There will still be plenty of jobs in IT, support, programmers, hardware stuff... It just won't be the sort of sleezy industry that IT had become over the last 20 years. It will be a service industry, not one that sells you some overpriced license and then demands even more money if you want any actual service. We are rebalancing the market, taking the power out of the hands of those who had become unresponsive to market forces.

I think most free software advocates are ultimately free market advocates, even though their philosophy may look like communism to the untrained eye. Software is unlike any other marketable item.

I'm positive I don't speak for everyone. However, I'm sure when I say "we", I'm not alone.

Re:Optimisim? (1)

SuperBanana (662181) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829995)

Ever noticed /. NEVER has a positive article about the IT industry?

This got modded insightful?

Ignoring the fact that most stories come by reader submission...That's like saying "geez, all I see is green, must be something wrong with my eyes" while standing in a park. No shit, sherlock. The IT industry hasn't been doing very well for quite some time. Why should slashdot bias the news towards happy-go-lucky stories, when that doesn't reflect the industry status quo?

Re:Optimisim? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6830001)

Ever noticed /. NEVER has a positive article about the IT industry?
Maybe because it is really bad? Go ask any recent college graduate how he is doing. Even some of the ones with good grades and internships are flailing (under or unemployed). People that are real programmers are hurting, not just those who think that "Java and the Internet and all that are cool and easy money".

Security (2, Insightful)

delirium of disorder (701392) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829822)

But most buisnesses and certainly no government would outsource penitration testing and other security jobs. I bet there is tech job security in well...the field of security.

Re:Security (1)

Zeinfeld (263942) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829899)

But most buisnesses and certainly no government would outsource penitration testing and other security jobs. I bet there is tech job security in well...the field of security.

On the contrary, almost no companies hire their own security guards. Even banks outsource guarding and moving money.

In the IT world outsourced management of firewalls is one of the hottest, rapidly growing areas. One reason is to save costs - outsourced management costs a lot less than hiring and training an internal expert. Outsourced also means better security, every change to the firewall configuration has to be signed off internally and by the outsourced management. Anyone who has managed firewalls for a lot of clients can tell stories of going to see $100K firewall installations running open circuit because someone disabled filtering some months earlier for a 'test'.

If you want security you have to have 24x365 coverage, you have to have experts who are right on top of the latest threats to emerge. Sure there are a few companies that can afford to set up that type of infrastructure internally, but most can't.

Security is going to become a commodity the same way every other part of the IT industry becomes a commodity over time.

Re:Security (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6829987)

In Canada we outsourced our national security to the US.

The irony of offshoring (5, Insightful)

CBNobi (141146) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829825)

So the American corporations (of doom) are sending jobs to foreign companies to save some cash. Considering Indian IT workers have a wage of $10,000 compared to the $60,000 of fresh out of college Americans, that adds up. The pay raises usually end up in the pockets of the business owners.

But weren't the same American business owners, albeit in other industries, complaining about other countries making money by importing goods to the US and competing with the traditional businesses? Isn't that what the entire anti-dumping, WTO policies are about?

There was a mainstream article on Time magazine entitled Where the Good Jobs Are Going [time.com]. (Premium, pay article) which you might want to take a look at if you have access to it.

Re:The irony of offshoring (1)

smkndrkn (3654) | more than 10 years ago | (#6830020)

I've never once met a tech worker who made $60k out of college....ever. Now I"m in systems and maybe there are some really talented programmers and maybe even good sysadmins that make that much but that is just not the 'norm'. In my experience fresh out of college IT workers make around 30-40k to start. I also worked with a company called wipro, not my choice, which was based in India and they would send consultants to the US to work for us as well as some that stayed in India. Now if they were to be believed they made more than $10k USD a year. One guy I spoke with told me he was round 25-30k a year USD and he was based in India and did about 1/2 of his work here in the US. This was about 3 years ago.

I'm not arguing that its not cheaper to do business in India and other 3rd world nations..just that the gaps you describe might be a bit exaggerated...then again..maybe not...its only me personal experience.

Worth noting I'm in the Boston IT market so its not like I'm working in east bumfuck ohio. ;)

I'm a Republican! (A Poem) (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6829830)

Oh, I'm a Republican
I got a small schling
I like to bomb niggahs
and make a lot o' bling

I got a bunch o' friends
in high up places
They helps me get dem
government graces.

You think I'm smart
I just know who's who
I couldn't run a fruit stand
without the red white & blue

I fancy myself
A brilliant tactician
But neither me nor m'buddies
Could even pass basic trainin'

See, I'm above all that
A fightin' and shootin'
I just say "Sic em!"
Then run the other direction

Don't need no history
Don't need no schoolin'
I got my ideology
To keep me a shootin'

Liberals! Faggots!
Commies and queers!
Socialist hippies
Full o' pussy tears!

I'll drop some crap
about Jesus the Christ
You'll buy it all
and vote for me twice

'Fact, Jesus is comin'!
Real soon, now!
So we gotta prop up Israel
That ol' sacred cow

Propaganda's m'friend
But I calls it "fact"
Even though I don't read
'Cept for Chick tracts

Facts? No! Don't need em here!
We're conservatives! We work on FEAR!
Don't like what we say?
Well FUCK YOU, bud!
We'll shove it down yer throat
and tell ya it's good!

Fine (2, Funny)

MRsackler (571464) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829843)

This just means that I could get a low paying job as a programmer, and hire an indian coder on half my salary to do all of my work for me. Sounds great! :)

about pay... (1)

tomstdenis (446163) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829845)

Um, car mechanics and plumbers and other trades don't exactly make the same a waiter makes. So aren't they just a bit hypocritical?

I dunno if I like paying a plumber 60$/h but I definitely wouldn't want one that expected 5$/h

Tom

Re:about pay... (1)

bluGill (862) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829959)

I was just thinking that $60k/yr sounds right for a good plumber. For that matter is should be doable (after overtime) for anyone in the construction trades that has been around a while and is willing to work.

I know several people in construction trades that have intentionally limited how much they can earn because they now make enough (30k? obviously they won't tell me) to live comfortable, and would prefer to spend their time playing, looking at girls, and so on. They could make more, but with the salery of a foreman (the next position, and the company needs more foremen) comes responsibility they don't want.

Stabbing themselves in the foot... (5, Insightful)

LamerX (164968) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829850)

Yeah well they are gonna pay once they realize that nobody in the USA has any jobs because they've all been moved overseas. Once nobody has any jobs, they won't be able to afford to buy anybodys products. Then when nobody buys the products, the companies begin to fold. Don't they see how this works. Its simple logic that says when jobs go away, people can't afford stuff, when they can't afford stuff, they don't buy stuff, then the companies fold. SIMPLE ECONOMICS. All of these companies need to start to realize that they are only hurting themselves in the long run.

Re:Stabbing themselves in the foot... (2, Informative)

Sanga (125777) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829923)

Not entirely -- when you have a small enough group controlling the entire financial destiny of a huge enough population, then you could have a self sustaining system that does not fold because of the lack of buying power of the many.

I am not suggesting that this could happen or is happening. But theoritically it is possible.

Re:Stabbing themselves in the foot... (5, Insightful)

Daniel Dvorkin (106857) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829926)

Well, of course ultimately the idea is that the high-paying jobs that go overseas -- high-paying by the standards of the countries they're going to, in any case -- will boost those countries' economies enough that they'll be able to buy our stuff. And long-term, it's reasonable to believe that this is so. Free trade, overall, tends to be good for everyone engaging in it. The problem is that in the short term, or even the medium term, there's a whole lot of chaos involved in the process, and a lot of people suffer from it. Notice that the people making the decisions that lead to this chaos hardly ever suffer themselves.

I have mixed feelings about this. I work in IT, fortunately for a company that is spectacularly unlikely to outsource anything any time soon. (Er, unless I stop wasting time on /. and get back to work, that is. <g>) I know a hell of a lot of people, less lucky than I, who are out of work because of foreign competition. And yet I also believe that economic growth in the Third World is the best thing that could possibly happen for the Earth as a whole, and I am well aware that the export of IT jobs is a major step toward that goal.

Re:Stabbing themselves in the foot... (2, Insightful)

fishbowl (7759) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829950)

The trick is, your scenario needs to play out. The economy either needs to recover, or else it needs to get A LOT WORSE very quickly.

The more likely outcome is some equilibrium where the have's can live life while marginalizing the have-not's, and convince themselves that the have-not's are responsible for their own predicament.

Much like the status quo today, but with a slightly different distribution of wealth.

If you want CHANGE, you'd better hope for a scenario where even the HAVE's are pissed off. Because it's real easy for governments, corporations, and even individuals to not listen to the complaints of the HAVE-NOT's.

Wonderful (2, Funny)

the Man in Black (102634) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829851)

So, not only am I competing with hundreds of other unemployed IT workers for every job from sysadmin to help desk, I have to factor in companies saying "Well, we can just outsource this position. Much cheaper". This is doing nothing for my positivity.

14 weeks of unemployment left. *sigh*

This Article Really Gets Off On The Wrong Foot (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6829855)

First of all, I want to point out that American programmers and other IT people were outstandingly unsympathetic when factory workers' jobs started going overseas 30 or 40 years ago...

In the early 60's and early 70's? How many programmers were there back then? Maybe a few thousand?

With a statement as blatantly wrong as this I'm wary to read any further.

Frost Pist (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6829858)

Shlashdot is teh ghey

Re:Frost Pist (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6829891)

Frosty, you should join CLIT or GNAA.

30 or 40 years ago? (4, Funny)

holzp (87423) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829862)

First of all, I want to point out that American programmers and other IT people were outstandingly unsympathetic when factory workers' jobs started going overseas 30 or 40 years ago

Yeah those 7 guys were real assholes.

speaking of job creation and destruciton... (2, Funny)

infonick (679715) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829863)

Once upon a time the government had a vast scrap yard in the middle of a desert. Congress said someone may steal from it at night; so they created a night watchman, GS-4 position and hired a person for the job. Then Congress said, How does the watchman do his job without instruction?" So they created a planning position and hired two (2) people, one person to write the instructions, GS-12 and one person to do time studies, GS-11. Then Congress said, "How will we know the night watchman is doing the tasks correctly?" So they created a Q. C. position and hired two (2) people, one GS-9 to do the studies and one GS-11 to write the reports. Then Congress said, "How are these people going to get paid?" so they created the following positions, a time keeper, GS-09, and a payroll officer, GS-11, and hired two (2) people. Then Congress said, "Who will be accountable for all of these people?" So they created an administrative position and hired three (3) people, an Admin. Officer GM-13, Assistant Admin. Officer GS-12, and a Legal Secretary GS-08. Then Congress said, "We have had this command in operation for one year and we are $18,000 over budget, we must cutback overall cost," So they laid off the night watchman.

international unions (3, Insightful)

agurkan (523320) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829864)

From the article:
In the end, like it or not, we here in the U.S. are going to have to learn how to deal with a truly worldwide IT economy.
The only way to deal with any kind of worldwide economy, not only IT, is international unions and solidarity. This is big corporations using one country's workforce again the other. As pointed out near the beginning of the article, this is a lot similar to German workers losing jobs to Americans who lost jobs to Mexicans. This would be prevented if there was an international labor standard. Well, there is, but it is not enforcable unfortunately.
Until international unions can be formed, we need to work to pass laws to prevent this abuse of workers, IT or any other field. However in US it is a far dream since there is no labor party. I believe US is the only industrialized society without a labor party.
Happy Labor Day! :-)

The gist ... (1)

vivek7006 (585218) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829866)

The trick to staying gainfully employed in the IT industry -- and to breaking into it -- is, as always, a matter of spotting growth areas and moving toward them.

Not so (0)

Henry V .009 (518000) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829877)

It can be stopped. But it means learning the lesson that free trade is a deeply flawed ideology. It means voting for this guy [amconmag.com].

just a quick note (1)

C0vardeAn0nim0 (232451) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829879)

cringely wrote 2 columns this month about the issue I think you should read.

http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit2003080 7. html
http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit200 30814. html

BTW, i'm not threatned. i live in a 3rd world country, and i can maybe even benefit from this situation. but cringely does raise several points that you ppl up north should know about. specially the decision makers

Exporting of Jobs (5, Insightful)

daviddennis (10926) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829881)

I'm not sure why anyone would want to hire Americans, since our cost of living has shot way beyond anything like a reasonable level. You give someone a $100k salary, and in California he can pretty much just make ends meet and maybe buy a few gadgets.

I'm actually thinking it might be a good idea to move offshore myself. I'd earn less, but I might earn more when adjusted to the cost of living in, say, the Philippines or Brazil.

I'd still earn a lot more than the typical offshore worker due to excellent English skills. All I would need to do is learn how to communicate with them and I'd be in demand in the same way the Los Angeles auto mechanic head is. He typically gives instructions to the hispanics who do the real work. No different from my scenerio.

True, the infrastructure isn't there, but if enough of us go, it's going to improve over time. The first mover keeps the low cost of living, and in fact benefits from inevitable increases in costs. For instance, if I buy a house today, it will go up in value if more come.

SF guru Robert Heinlein always said that we have a choice of staying fat and happy in our own spaces, or going to explore the unknown. He said the fat and happy places would decline, and eventually get swallowed up by more competitive ones. I think we're seeing that happen right now, in our own lifetimes. There's no space travel, true, but international travel is every bit as mysterious to the average guy.

Maybe it's about time to realize that unfortunately, America isn't what it's cracked up to be anymore. We've gotten too flabby and expensive for our own good. That spells problems, yes, but it also spells opportunity for those who dare to take it.

D

Re:Exporting of Jobs (1)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829954)

"and in California he can pretty much just make ends meet and maybe buy a few gadgets."

Just in case you missed the memo. CA is not the only state in the Union. It is quite a bit cheaper to live in most other states.

Re:Exporting of Jobs (3, Insightful)

demonbug (309515) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829985)

I'm not sure why anyone would want to hire Americans, since our cost of living has shot way beyond anything like a reasonable level. You give someone a $100k salary, and in California he can pretty much just make ends meet and maybe buy a few gadgets.


Okay, this is just gross overstatement. Even in high-cost areas around S.F. and San Jose, 100K is plenty for a comfortable living. Sure, it will be tough to afford that new house, but thats how it is for everyone. Throughout the vast majority of California, you could live very comfortably on 100K. Anyone who would even think about complaining that a hundred thousand a year is a bare minimum to survive on, even in the most expensive state in the union, needs some serious lessons in monetary responsibility. I have lived in California all my life, and I know practically no one that makes even close to a hundred grand, yet most of them live quite happily with houses and kids and cars and everything.
Now, cut that number in half, and you might be correct. But you can live comfortably in any city in California for a hundred grand a year.

Tell me about it... (1)

BlindSpot (512363) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829886)

I'm one of those who can't find a job right now. Graduated top 5% of my class, been programming for 16 years, but I'm stuck at home doing nothing.

The problem? I have no industry experience, and nobody seems willing to hire programmers with no experience right now. Presumably because there are so many recently-laid-off programmers who do have experience out there. I used to see dozens of Junior Programmer jobs advertised, now I see one or two a month and they usually need specialized skills. Meanwhile there's lots of Senior positions available.

I don't see things getting better for a few years yet at least. Until companies have reason to be optimistic and less skittish and start taking chances on people, there will be a whole bunch of us who are stuck.

Now I'm a full believer in a free market economy and in global trade, so I won't lash out at companies for shifting to a cheaper solution. But that doesn't mean I won't say that it really sucks!!!

Re:Tell me about it... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6829909)

Welcome to the club dude !

Question regarding secret/ts clearances (1)

bearclaw (217359) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829890)

Some govt. jobs require active secret or top secret clearances. How does this play into outsourcing? Can a company outsource work overseas to people without secret or top secret clearances?

Or can a company, itself, have a clearance?

Aren't these primarily large-scale dev jobs ? (1)

ThomasFlip (669988) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829894)

Correct me if im wrong but won't most jobs such as sysadmins, web developers, security professionals, game developers and small scale contract workers still remain ? I mean, isn't it kind of hard to outsource a web developer/sys admin for a local university to some guy in India ? To me it seems as though there will still be a good core of IT jobs still available, just not the high-scale development jobs for large companies.

Another way to look at things... (1)

sigma (53086) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829904)

What happens when most of the entry level IT jobs are shipped overseas? Highly skilled jobs requiring more experience should always be in demand, but when the entry level IT jobs are gone, the US will be producing far less experienced IT workers.

Which is good news for those who already are "over the hump" of entry level IT. If this trend continues, I don't think I'll have to worry as much when I'm 50 about a 25 year old coming in to take my senior position for half my salary.

Perspective (1)

pphrdza (635063) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829908)

O.K., I know how to program, but you know what I get paid for? Teaching others how to USE the computers. Believe it or not, there's a lot of them out there that still don't know how to turn on a computer, much less use it.

So I train for money, and program for fun.

Sometimes it just won't work... (4, Insightful)

ElGuapoGolf (600734) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829914)

I have some experience with this. My last company laid most of their programmers off and outsourced the work overseas. In their case it worked since they were essentially an ad agency and all of the websites we did were pretty much "done" by time it came to code them (graphics and manuscripts just handed over).

Now I'm doing j2ee programming (I wasn't always a web monkey) for a different company, mostly financial applications. There is a lot of interaction with the business people, and requirements are quite often fluid. I doubt the business and sales people are going to want to come into work at 1am to conference call over to India to hash out the latest requirements.

Point is, some jobs are more likely to be shipped overseas than others. The pay scales of these jobs are going to fall in line with other white collar jobs (except the criminally underpaid teachers). It's just something we need to accept and move on with.

Context (4, Interesting)

Tpenta (197089) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829930)

I know I am going to get flamed by the "Keep jobs in America" folks, but the argument shown is very one sided.

There is the outcry about the Indian programmers being underpaid. What is left out of the equation is how the pay fits in with the standard of living where the employee lives.

Isn't it only good business and responsible to shareholders that companies look for the best return on the dollar spent?

The company that I work for has employees all over the world. I work in Australia. I know that I am paid less than my counterparts in the US. However, I also know that my cost of living is an awful lot lower than, say, California.

That said, going to cheaper countries must be balanced with getting the appropriate skill sets. There is nothing worse than dealing with someone who does not have the skill sets that you require them to have as a basic part of their job.

Tp.

haiku version (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6829933)

five lost years of school
five enjoyed years of working
lost to india

Glad I'm not a programmer... (1)

blackbear (587044) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829934)

Of course, I'm being replaced by a sys admin expert system written by underpaid oversees programers.

PBS has a show on this going on Now (1, Informative)

jmccay (70985) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829935)

Now, 8pm on Boston WGBH 2 on Bill Moyers show there was a segment on this. This is the information I recieved from WashTech:


We have received numerous calls and emails about the PBS NOW with Bill Moyers show on outsourcing scheduled for tonight, Friday, August 29th. Here is an updated link to the NOW with Bill Moyers web site giving further details on tonight's show.

NOW with Bill Moyers Home Page:
http://www.pbs.org/now/

In Depth Report on:
Job Flight-NOW looks at the U.S. trend toward exporting white-collar jobs
http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/jobflight.ht ml

Check local listings for stations and times at http://www.pbs.org/now/sched.html)

Visit the web address below to tell your friends about this.
Tell-a-friend!

If you received this message from a friend, you can sign up for WashTech.
If you would like to unsubscribe from WashTech, or update your account settings, please click here or respond to this email with "REMOVE" as the subject line.


I highly suggest signing up for this email [unionvoice.org]. They notify people about people like this.

I want to point out that this is not just Technology jobs! Accounting jobs are being sent to India, and also call centers.
If this is not enough, the government is still allowing foriegners to take American jobs using L1s and H1-Bs.
Also, states are sending their money to jobs overseas. ANY job that doesn't require a physical presence in the United States can be sent overseas to places like India!
RIAA is nothing compared to the loss of our jobs to foriegners and overseas. We, that means everybody (tech and non-tech) need to make our Government understand we will not stand for jobs being moving overseas or foriegners taking our jobs!

Its a different world without the bonet (2, Interesting)

slazlo (87565) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829943)

I have a friend who is a mangager at IBM and he was recently required to change his team makeup to be 70% from IBM India. He is bummed but there is nothing he can do to prevent the shift in manpower. I think this is a different world from the past and these jobs are not coming back. Unless you move into management, work for a small local firm, or try to go out on your own like my self 23 Pools [23pools.com] there is a good chance that your job may not be there in the future.
What I don't understand is why the pricing of housing hasn't come down more and expect that to be the next bubble to burst.

30 or 40 years ago ... (1)

openbear (231388) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829944)

I really have a problem with the opening tone of the article:

"... I want to point out that American programmers and other IT people were outstandingly unsympathetic when factory workers' jobs started going overseas 30 or 40 years ago, and I don't recall a single peep out of anyone in the IT ..."

Really ... 30 years ago I was an ovum :-)

A large number of the people that I know of who are having a hard time finding a job are young. They don't remember what the factory worker's plight was like because they were simply too young or not born yet. His opening argument really turned me off. I think calling the American programmer unsympathetic is a rash judgement.

Re:30 or 40 years ago ... (1)

pphrdza (635063) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829968)

Operative term here is started. Then there was NAFTA, which surely some of the younger programmers will remember?

O.K., NAFTA didn't send jobs overseas, but it had the same effect for factory workers.

Underpaid? Or a lesson here? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6829945)

...we may be replaced by an underpaid programmer in India

Are programmers in India truly underpaid? Or are they simply paid less than programmers in North America and Europe?

What would you have the programmers in India do? Raise their rates? Unless someone over there is twisting their arm into underselling themselves, I'm just going to label this as fair competition by a less expensive supplier. This concept made America great. So swallow your lesson. No wait. That will make you fatter.

And there is that M$ Banner Again... (1)

EvilTwinSkippy (112490) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829952)

Hit refresh a few times for the Microsoft ad claiming that you can Do more with less

I'll have to add that to my 1984isms

IT versus development (4, Insightful)

SuperBanana (662181) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829960)

The Unstoppable Shift of IT Jobs Overseas

I have nothing to fear from overseas labor. Why? Someone in India can't fix the printer. They can't install antivirus software on someone's system. They can't set up the phone+new PC for a new employee. They can't head over to the hosting center and install that new rackmount server. They don't form a working relationship with their coworkers that makes assisting them and understanding their problems easier.

Further, they're not going to speak English very well(or they'll have such a thick accent, they might as well be speaking Martian), and it's going to be very expensive to communicate with them(and most upper management people don't consider "only via email" to be an acceptable communications medium, rightly so- it's damn tedious sometimes). Not to mention the time difference is a royal PITA. Companies are drastically slashing policies on telecommuting employees- remote just doesn't work. You've gotta be there for the over-the-cube-wall conversations, the overheard tidbits of information that contribute to overall 'corporate knowledge', the meetings...

You know what? While developers were making 2x, 3x my salary during the internet boom(and didn't have to deal with emergencies, late night pages, etc), I didn't hear any complaints from 'em. Now, they'll all finding they're replaceable and their salaries are dropping- while sysadmins, network engineers and internal support staff are doing a far better job of holding onto employment because their jobs require physical presence. I have zero sympathy for the programmers- maybe those engineers should have actually saved their money instead of spending it on Porsche Boxsters, the latest PDAs/phones, and expensive clothes. In my experience, the only people who were worse about spending habits were the execs, but the difference is, the execs are still getting paid insane salaries.

Hey, maybe we should outsource executives :-)

The Unstoppable Shift of IT Jobs Overseas (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6829965)

Did anybody else think of a guy from India working 3 full-time shifts, 7 days a week?

Good for India. (5, Insightful)

Eminor (455350) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829966)

It's good see that there is a better future for the young people in India. There are a lot of really bright young people there. They are paid well in terms of their own economy.

It somebody else's turn to have an economic growth period. An american is no more important than an Indian.

Re:Good for India. (1)

the Man in Black (102634) | more than 10 years ago | (#6830010)

This is why I loathe liberals.

Of course an American is more important than an Indian...to OTHER AMERICANS. As an American, my level of concern for the quality of life in other countries takes a massive backseat to the quality of life in my own. In no other country in the world would you hear people having discussions about what they're going to do about the sad state of IT employment in the US. Of course they wouldn't, they'd look to how it would benefit themselves. Nation first, World second is exactly how Japan went from war-ravaged to having one of the strongest economies in the world. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a strong sense of nationalism, and there is something wrong with weeping over the children on Uzbekistan when our own children are dying.

Hm. That turned into a longer rant than expected. I must be angry or something.

No Free lunch (1, Interesting)

Dr Reducto (665121) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829967)

I just read an article recently about Indian call-centers. There is massive turnover, because the employees *know* they are underpaid. They also don't like the job because they have to maintain Central Standard Time, instaed of the local time.

As for foreign programmers, their code is often sub-par, needing extensive debugging, from what I hear.

Michael? Posting an article that's full of (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6829975)

shit? and looney politics? I am so shocked!

Republicans Outsourcing Fundraising to India (1)

Serk (17156) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829977)

Not just IT..... Looks like the Republican party is outsourcing it's fund raising activities to an Indian call center...

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=343 23 [wnd.com]

Another point - Joe Sixpack might not shed a tear for US IT jobs being shipped overseas, but he WILL get irate when he calls for support for his shiny new Dell, and Apu in Mumbai answers the phone... This is where the offshoring scheme is going to start getting sticky, when consumers start getting fed up with talking to someone in India whenever they call a helpdesk for a product they've purchased...

Another sad part is, this is going to start rising animosity and zenophobia against Indians in general.....

Re:Republicans Outsourcing Fundraising to India (1)

TheSync (5291) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829984)

Apu may speak English better than many Americans, however. And he will call himself "Bob" on the phone anyway.

Re:Republicans Outsourcing Fundraising to India (4, Interesting)

BigBadBri (595126) | more than 10 years ago | (#6830016)

and Apu in Mumbai answers the phone...

This is why the callcentre staff all have pretend European names, and are given classes in the vernacular of whichever locale they deal with (at least in the best call centres).

So long as Joe six-pack gets a fix, is he really going to give a monkeys?

I can't see a technically well educated Indian being any worse than your average first line support guy anyway, and from my experience of Indian colleagues, they tend to be more tolerant of user-obnoxiousness, and better able to handle dickheads.

Personally, I think it's a positive move - rather than shaving costs to the bone trying to supply minimum-wage phone support locally (which is difficult foir the company and unrewarding for the employee), it's better to pay a good market wage in a low wage, English-literate economy, and add value with operator training.

Just my two pennworth.

The disappearance of an industry (3, Interesting)

dreadlord76 (562584) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829986)

The software industry we know in this country will soon go the way of the dodo bird. Just like Textile, Steel, any sort of plastic manufacturing.... As more companies move their development offshore, there will be less jobs for entry level developers. Well, no entry level jobs means that in about 5 years, there will be no senior level developers in this country. Heck, all the main players thinks 5 years experiences makes a senior engineer, right? Since there aren't sufficient senior engineers here, it's time to rely on all foreign talent for the devleopment. Besides, the architect really needs to communicate with his team anyway, and in the same timezone. Soon, all development jobs are offshore. There will still be IT or admin jobs here, as those requires some warm bodies in the building. But true development will be all gone. Oh, the small consulting companies, the few experts with highly technical domain knowledges, they will have a paycheck. But the developer that can jump in anywhere and help out would not have a place. There will be no big software companies that has a big building with whiteboard walls. This is already becoming true, as more and more jobs openings expect exact fit in terms of domain knowledge. It's a matter of time before a big chunk of development for CA, Oracle, and Microsoft and others like them will be off shore. I suspect Microsoft won't shrink much, but the growth wouldn't be here anymore. I have a 40 year old, very senior engineering fried working on his Law degree. Most of us will need to think like him soon. If you read this Mike T., keep going!

Where's the beef? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6829993)

Or, where's the savings? A project at work was outsourced to India. It was expected to cost 1/3 what it would've cost domestically. It's already 2x the domestic cost. That's a 600% difference!

Re:Where's the beef? (1)

dreadlord76 (562584) | more than 10 years ago | (#6830019)

1/3? You are paying too much!

You should be able to hire 6-10 software engineers for the price of one engineer here. , you should be able to reduce your cost at least by 80%! A 66% savings means you're being ripped off! If it's costing 2x as much, that means you should be getting this thing in 1/20th of the time!

Seriously though, we're just at the beginning, and anecdotal evidence isn't going to hold back the tide. Companies will see the math I presented, and move towards it. Even if they only see a 20% saving, they will move more jobs over there. 20% is 20%.

This isn't going to stop until the cost of living raises enough in India or China to close to US level. At which point, we may recover. But, that assumes we will have enough talent left to recover...

unstoppable, but we can accelerate it (1)

penguin7of9 (697383) | more than 10 years ago | (#6829999)

I agree that the shift of IT jobs overseas is unstoppable. Actually, I don't even think it's a bad thing: to me, VB or ASP hacking seems like the intellectual equivalent of cleaning toilets.

In any case, there is a sure-fire way to accelerate this shift of jobs overseas: restrict H-1b visas. You see, right now, the smartest IT workers from overseas want to come to the US, and employers eager to hire them will accommodate their wishes. But if H-1b quotas make it impossible to hire those people in the US, the potential employees understand that they can't move to the US and employers can hire them in their countries of origin at a fraction of the cost.

Whether that's a good thing or not depends on your perspective. It probably is a good thing for countries like the UK, China, and India, who have lost their best and brightest to the US, people who are desparately needed for contributing to their domestic economies.

Wrong again! (3, Insightful)

InfinityWpi (175421) | more than 10 years ago | (#6830002)

Once more, I find myself educating those who should not need it... IT is more than just programming, people! Yes, programming jobs are going overseas. Phone support is going overseas. But in-your-office-today support? That's not going anywhere.

Don't be worried until... (1)

(H)elix1 (231155) | more than 10 years ago | (#6830005)

They can ship the business, project management, and all the other aspects of a software project overseas. I've seen quite a few companies attempt to do off shore development, and most have failed catastrophically. Why? The business side was fuzzy. Most projects have vague (at best) requirements and possibly a few meaningless use cases. So digging into one of the analogies in the article - developers are in the same boat factory workers were a several decades ago, the jobs all moved. When you are tooling a factory, you give someone a circuit diagram, blueprints, and cut out all areas that might have creative latitude. That works. Ever see someone try to design something over email with a day delay tossed into the mix? Joy.

Not to say it cannot be done. It can for software elements that have very clear design docs, etc. Last I looked, almost all the software I code is custom 'non-shrinkwrapped' stuff.

Time to read Carl Sandburg... (1)

dpbsmith (263124) | more than 10 years ago | (#6830008)

Stocks are property, yes.
Bonds are property, yes.
Machines land, buildings, are property, yes.
A job is property,
No, nix, nah nah.

--Carl Sandburg, The People, Yes, section 38

And time to rethink the concept of "property." If songs are property, and words are property, and ideas are property, why shouldn't a job be property?

Gotta say it... (1)

legLess (127550) | more than 10 years ago | (#6830011)

I'm not worried...
When it comes down to it -- talking trade balances here -- once we've brained drained all our technology into other countries, once things have evened out, they're making cars in Bolivia and microwave ovens in Tadshikistan and selling them here -- once our edge in natural resources has been made irrelevant by giant Hong Kong ships and dirigibles that can ship North Dakota all the way to New Zealand for a nickel -- once the Invisible Hand has taken all those historical inequities and smeared them out into a broad global layer of what a Pakistani bricklayer would consider to be prosperity -- y'know what? There's only four things we do better than anyone else
  • music
  • movies
  • microcode (software)
  • high-speed pizza delivery
Neal Stephenson :: Snow Crash

I think... (1)

sielwolf (246764) | more than 10 years ago | (#6830018)

That the IT industry is still paying for the dot-com stuff. Hell, even now as all the ex-dot-com'ers are looking for jobs you have a wave of new CS college grads who started their degrees when it seemed as if IT was going to change the world.

Of course I've also heard that people are finding limitations to the outsourcing of IT. Like it or not making software isn't stitching shirts or assembling toys for Happy Meals. The issues of holding to the spirit of a project spec or communicating with a customer requires a certain level of locality. I think folks are starting to realize that a 8pm conference call to Bengal is not the way to do software dev.

On a completely unrelated note: what the hell does the first 500 words of the article have to do with anything? What does a supposed responsibility of the IT industry to offshoring labor jobs or the high IT salaries have to do with the article at hand? Jesus, I felt like I was in parochial school getting the finger wag of Original Sin all over again. The gist: "You are so lucky to be IT. You have no right to complain!" This from a guy who works at OSDN to a lot of folks without jobs?

Overall it is good (1)

bluGill (862) | more than 10 years ago | (#6830024)

Overall this is good. Those overseas programers will spend money there, and that puts more people there to work, and they all spend money... They raise the standard of living. I understand that India is no longer the place to go to for cheap labor because their standard of living has gone up. Overall however their stnadard of living increases means mine can increase too. At least so long as standard of living is based on "new things", the most people who can create "new things" the more "new things" there are to choose from. (In quotes because there is a lot of there, not just the obvious toys, but also medical advances, and others I can't name now)

Already Japan has gone the whole way and increased my standard of living by increasing theirs. We wouldn't have Playstations without the Japanise. We might not have even had Atari (american except the name) if the founders had been too busy doing the things the Japanise were doing at the time instead, and the world would be a poorer place.

Of course if you are stuck in the middle without a job, it sucks, but people can adjust. You need to adjust too. Maybe it is find a new field. Maybe it is make yourself better in your field. Maybe it means accepting less money. Maybe it means moving elsewhere. Maybe it means something I haven't thought of, but do it. Don't be like the US steel industry, sit on your current ability until it becomes obsolete and you can do nothing. Even if you have a job you should take this advice.

A happy ending? (1)

archen (447353) | more than 10 years ago | (#6830026)

This text stuck out to me in the article:

"In the end, like it or not, we here in the U.S. are going to have to learn how to deal with a truly worldwide IT economy. Some IT workers here may be forced to leave the "computer industry" and move into non-offshorable jobs,"

The problem with all of this is that the U.S. is NOT going to learn how to deal with a truly worldwide economy, until it's too late. You ship the majority of jobs overseas and guess what? Most people don't have jobs, and your country just hemorages money.

The dilema the U.S. is facing, is becoming a service economy - a economy which cannot sustain itself. What jobs are non-offshorable? IT jobs such as he described like fixing computers, and general maintenance - things which are important, but do not produce. The other other non offshorable jobs being those of the top execs who just keep voting themselvs pay rases from all the money their saving by shipping all these jobs overseas.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong, but the U.S. is heading down the road where it's economy is going to take a nose dive (which might be a good thing in the end). It wouldn't bother me so much if it wasn't for the fact that they keep axing American jobs (not just I.T.) but nothing ever gets CHEAPER.
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