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No Americans Need Apply

michael posted more than 10 years ago | from the giant-sucking-sound dept.

Programming 1374

Victor G. Sommers writes "Daniel Soong, who lost his programming job to Indian offshore companies, is willing to relocate to India. 'It would be really interesting to work in Bangalore,' he says. 'But I was told, "Daniel, it is against the law for you to work here. You can come here on vacation, but you can't work here."' Indian officials have told him they don't hire Americans." An article in ComputerWorld talks about the possibility of getting more than you bargained for in outsourced code.

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Outsource or Insource? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932264)

As the dot.com economy turns sluggish, pragmatic businesses have begun to appreciate the advantages of the Internet as a means to improve internal operations and create more effective sales channels. Business fundamentals are back in vogue. Profitability is once again important. While a simple, yet slick, Web presence is now the minimum requirement for any viable Internet-based business, practical organizations realize that they must forge beyond Web page glitz, toward tight supply and delivery chains and efficient business-to-business (B-to-B) or business-to-consumer (B-to-C) operations. The successful execution of networking operations becomes more critical to the lifeblood of the business itself. Now, along with customer satisfaction, productivity depends on the Internet infrastructure and its ability to perform flawlessly. Meanwhile, enabling technologies are evolving faster than they can be consumed. Over the course of just a few years, data transfer rates have exploded: 10 MB LAN (local area network) speeds were replaced by 100 MB speeds, which were even more quickly replaced by 1 GB LAN speeds. Similarly, backbone transfer rates have skyrocketed from OC-3 to OC-12 to OC-48 to OC-192. Routers, switches, and servers are becoming faster, and more quickly, than ever before. New product life-cycles have shortened to weeks instead of months. The economics of today's technology market places pragmatic businesses in a quandary: bear the continual costs of upgrading network resources to improve reliability and availability, or place at risk those critical business factors -- customer satisfaction and operational efficiency -- that have created a successful business. From these Internet age dynamics we must understand the importance of carefully managing upside potential and downside risks collectively. The chosen infrastructure that will support a pragmatic business' Internet strategy must be capable of managing wild success and ultimate failure. Amidst this roller coaster environment, outsourced hosting services offer resolution to the outsourcing dilemma -- an answer that pragmatic businesses have found to be a win-win solution. Outsourcing hosting services enables the user to leverage the established infrastructure of third-party providers to obtain consisent, leading-edge solutions at a predictable monthly expense. This Aberdeen Executive White Paper [amazon.com] offers an understanding of how outsourced hosting services help pragmatic e-Businesses navigate a fast-paced market.

Re:Outsource or Insource? (1, Funny)

multiplexo (27356) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932355)

Could this be slightly more buzzword compliant?

Re:Outsource or Insource? (1)

mojoNYC (595906) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932409)

this is the problem...the turd who spewed this crap is probably making six figures, meanwhile, real work is being devalued by these marketroids...

Re:Outsource or Insource? (1)

jakarta (617836) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932414)

Sheez, put down your book that you got all those buzzwords from and write an interesting comment. Maybe it was just the thrill of a first post. resistance is futile...

oh rikku (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932270)

where art thou my love

Duh... (5, Informative)

tliet (167733) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932273)

Well, duh... As a dutchman it's also not possible for me to relocate to the USA. Unless I prove that there's no way my skills can be found in the States.

Re:Duh... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932310)

God I hate Indians. I called ReplayTV to cancel an order and I must've been transferred to a call center in India. I know the accent since my friend is Indian. Sounds like they're in a farking quickie mart.

Re:Duh... (4, Funny)

(startx) (37027) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932367)

There are two types of people I hate in this world. Those who are intolerent of other people's culture, and the Dutch!

Are there any mods older than about 14 here? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932534)

It's called irony (ok, maybe mild sarcasm).

What it is not, is flamebait!

God! I wish most of the mods around here were properly socialized and understood the nuances of humor and human social interaction in general.

Re:Duh... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932379)

Please. It is trivial to get a job in the US as a non-citizen, and I'm not just talking yardwork.

GMAMFB. Anyone from Western Europe is not in a position to bitch about American immigration or labor laws.

Re:Duh... (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932384)

Yep you are exactly right. I am a US citizen and my company had to get a work Permit to send me to England. I don't get why this should be on Slashdot. Sound like more fear-mongoring. I do think there needs to be some sort of limitation to countries that do not have similar worker rights as the western world. However, that probably wont happen in Dick Cheney's new America.

Re:Duh... (1, Informative)

b1t r0t (216468) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932400)

It's easy. All your prospective employer has to do is put a bunch of wierd job requirements that just coincidentally happen to match those on your resume, take a couple dozen other resumes, and strike them out because they don't have ten years experience in Java.

Re:Duh... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932411)

i called HP to have warrenty work done on my printer. I got someone in India that couldn't speak english well, in fact at all. After a bout 5 mins. i hung up the phone and just went and bought another printer.

Re:Duh... (4, Insightful)

JoeBuck (7947) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932420)

But as a Dutch citizen you can follow your job to Germany or the UK or Italy, because within the EU there is free trade for both labor and for capital. "Free trade" advocates these days want free movement of capital and goods, but not workers.

In WTO-world, corporations can move their jobs across borders but workers cannot follow. This one-sidedness pushes salaries down everywhere, as companies seek the cheapest available labor.

Re:Duh... (4, Interesting)

boomgopher (627124) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932438)

I think the point being made is that everyone bitches about how jobs are moving overseas because of American's extravagant lifestyles, etc. But when someone is willing to move to a place where you can live dirt-cheap, the government over there won't allow it.

And actually you can move right on in to California now, since the retarded state gov is basically trying abolish all immigration law. Come on over!

Re:Duh... (1, Interesting)

Brahmastra (685988) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932440)

The only purpose to this article is so that a bunch of Whiners can rant, rave and get cardiac arrests over Indians. The law in most places is that you have to give preference to citizens over foreign nationals with equivalent skills. If the US has a bunch of lawyers who can convince the government that certain foreign nationals have unique skills, it's not the fault of some other country.

Re:Duh...Obl. Austin Powers (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932518)

"There's two things I can't stand... people who are intolerant of others because of their ethnic and cultural differences; and the Dutch."

Yeah, baby, yeah!

You're in luck (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932527)

Arizona has one lost Dutchman, so you can replace him if you don't mind mining.

Just usual (5, Interesting)

Karamchand (607798) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932279)

That's common in many countries all around the world. As long as you aren't a citizien it is rather hard to get a job - not just because of possible prejudices but also simply because you are not allowed to!

Re:Just usual (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932490)

I can't get a job in the States unless I marry someone there. No green cards for people from the UK unless a company sends you over there and bullshits that they've looked around and can't find people with the relevant skills, and no green card lottery for UK citizens because more than 50,000 Brits enter the US each year already (presumably via the 2 mechanisms I just mentioned).

No sandniggers need apply either (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932284)

Happy cake with a stick down and two sticks day!

Punch a sandnigger in the face today!

Fuck Arabs.

Re:No sandniggers need apply either (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932343)

Afraid that they'll blow out a couple more candles on that cake you call New York?

Re:No sandniggers need apply either (1)

NetNinja (469346) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932506)

Such is the world comming to :(

WILDCAT HAS CAPTUARED TEH FLAG~!!`1 BLUE TEAM SCOR (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932286)

Stamp-over advertising? (1, Offtopic)

Mr. Darl McBride (704524) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932288)

Am I the only one who had to copy and paste the text from the second linked page into a word processor to view the story?

In Mozilla, I got a Sprint ad in a huge box which overlaid the story text, making it impossible to read. I tried hovering over and such to see if it had a 'click to hide' option, but nothing. I'm not clicking the ad itself.

Is this some new advertising tactic to force people to visit ad sites to view the article, or is this just a page design problem?

Re:Stamp-over advertising? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932317)

One word: Privoxy [privoxy.org] .

Re:Stamp-over advertising? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932328)

You should use MSIE and see if that corrects the problem. I would assume that Mozilla is buggy before I'd assume that the page has design issues.

Re:Stamp-over advertising? (1)

yerfatma (666741) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932375)

Err, I guess you would want to try Opera if you were worried about a Moz bug. Viewing it in IE isn't going to tell you much about whether the page has design issues or not.

Re:Stamp-over advertising? (0, Offtopic)

slaker (53818) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932405)

Moz is the browser that is most compliant with actual web standards.
Probably some dumbass webmonkey didn't bother to check his page in anything but IE6 for Windows, and therefore didn't realize the problem.

OTOH, it looked fine to me, and I'm using Moz 1.4 with most of the image and javascipt-blocking options turned on.

Re:Stamp-over advertising? (0, Offtopic)

fenix down (206580) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932432)

If it doesn't take Mozilla into account, that's a design issue.

Re:Stamp-over advertising? (1)

Tirel (692085) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932373)

it works fine in epiphany 1.0 which is based on the mozilla-1.4-gtk2 engine. either upgrade or select block images and reload.

Re:Stamp-over advertising? (1)

forrestt (267374) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932543)

The second link is /.ed, so I can't tell for sure, but...

Yesterday I had a similar experience on a site (using Moz 1.4 on RedHat 9) and found that if I narrowed the browser the stamp-over would move to the right and allow me to see the text. My guess is that the problem is with viewing the page with a high res desktop rather than browser specific, but what do I know?)

Re:Stamp-over advertising? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932558)

I had to do the same even using "evil" IE.

But we live in India (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932295)

I mean theres even some native Indians that live down the street from me. We came here back in 1492 remember?

"Shock And Awe" bombing phase begins!!!! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932305)

The law will never make men free; it is men who have got to make the law free. -- Henry David Thoreau

Nonsense (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932307)

This article is a bunch of hyped nonsense. There are plenty of Americans and other nationals working in Bangalore. Maybe they don't hire people who suck

Re:Nonsense (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932344)

Or maybe....just MAYBE, they suck people that they hire. Yes?

Of course he can't work there... (5, Insightful)

ksheka (189669) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932320)

The laws are probably similar to the US:
You can't immigrate to work unless you can prove that you can do a job that no one else in the country can do.
If it wasn't for this law, the US would be flooded (more so than now) with techs and doctors from all over asia.

Re:Of course he can't work there... (4, Insightful)

garcia (6573) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932408)

and did you read the article?

A MAN SHOT HIMSELF BECAUSE HE ENDED UP TRAINING HIS INDIAN REPLACEMENT.

So, if this man could come to the US and BE TRAINED by a CITIZEN what could this man do that the CITIZEN could not?

Re:Of course he can't work there... (0)

skitz0 (89196) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932507)

How is this a troll? Its 100 accurate.

Re:Of course he can't work there... (1, Insightful)

TheGreek (2403) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932546)

Work for half as much money.

Sovereign country (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932321)

India is a sovereign country. They can do that with impunitity. I have no problem with that.

USA is also a sovereign country. Let's do the same. It's about time we stop issuing visas to people who steal native born Americans' jobs.

Before some slashbot calls me a racist, let me tell you that I don't care if you are a black, white, hindu, christian, jew or a muslim. If you're American, I've got nothing against you. But if you think you should be able to just waltz in and have a job or study at one of our universities, think again.

Re:Sovereign country (1)

Tirel (692085) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932437)

american universities cost about 10,000 times more than european ones. HTH.

Re:Sovereign country (1)

yerfatma (666741) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932450)

I think "troll" would come up before racist. Unless your ancestors were Apache coders. Like, uhm, literally or something.

Re:Sovereign country (1)

winkydink (650484) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932521)

Most companies of any significant size these days are multinational. There are several legal entities that are owned by one or more parent companies.

If the US chooses to make it difficult for the US-based subsidiary to outsource, it's a simple shell game for aa multinatioal to run it's outsourgins through one of your non-US subsidiaries.

Welcome to the global economy.

What's this? (2, Insightful)

Royster (16042) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932323)

Americans can't move overseas and take jobs away from locals? What is this world coming to?

I mean we let people from all over come here and work. Ummmmm, except we don't.

You can get a tourist visa to visit most any place in the world. I went to China earlier this year. But those visas don't allow you to work.

Why is this even a story? It's the way things are.

Re:What's this? (0)

treat (84622) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932357)

I mean we let people from all over come here and work. Ummmmm, except we don't.

Right. I'm just imagining all the H1Bs taking jobs away from Americans because they can be paid less.

Re:What's this? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932442)

"I mean we let people from all over come here and work. Ummmmm, except we don't."

Thats what the article talks about, jobs being lost over seas. So yes they do come from all over to work here, just that the don't have to be here to have the same effect on taking our jobs. We can't go over there to work, but its cool for them to take all of our jobs.

Re:What's this? (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932461)

You can get a tourist visa to visit most any place in the world.

Yeah, sure. Except that if the plans by the US Office of Homeland Security come through, I won't be able to fly over to the USA with my brand new EU passport without submitting my fingerprints and/or retinal scan with the visa. The new passports will, at the request of the beforementioned office, have to feature digital biometric information that will be fed to a federal database.

I will not submit to this.

Re:What's this? (2, Insightful)

Future Man 3000 (706329) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932463)

This is a story because the work is being done for American companies. Americans, in this case, would be reclaiming their jobs at much lower pay and standards, rather than claiming jobs from somebody else's job pool.

I think it merits discussion.

Re:What's this? (2, Insightful)

bricriu (184334) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932472)

H1-B visa? Anyone? Bueller?

Re:What's this? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932548)

"Why is this even a story? It's the way things are."

He's American so hasn't been brought up to have any understanding of how things work in his own country, let alone abroad. What is it - 4% of Americans have a passport? Even George "The Idiot" Bush didn't know the name of the general running Pakistan, until 9/11.

I'm going into medical field. (-1, Offtopic)

Thinkit3 (671998) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932331)

I'm mainly sick of the copyrights and patents. I'd rather just deal with patients one on one than patent or copyright stuff all day (which I think is immoral). If the copyright and patent jobs go to India, that's fine--let them be immoral.

Re:I'm going into medical field. (1)

Wudbaer (48473) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932418)

Well, being an ex-doctor myself and now being active in the biotech area: If you just plan to be a humble practitioner treating patients you might get around all that IP stuff, but life sciences and medicine are that plastered with patents that IT looks like paradise in comparison. So it might be worth reconsidering.

Humble practitioner, that's the idea. (1)

Thinkit3 (671998) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932471)

Sure I will be dealing with patented tools and medicines, but I won't be the one patenting the stuff.

Re:I'm going into medical field. (1)

JanneM (7445) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932539)

Yep. Dealing with malpractice issues and byzantine procedure reimbursement rules sure sounds a lot more relaxing.

Wow. More than we bargained for? (1)

metrazol (142037) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932335)

As in, the link will be Slashdotted in under 5 minutes? Typical second rate contractors...promising more for less.

Anybody get a mirror?

Not such a bad idea. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932340)

India sounds like a rather nice place. I mean, there's the constant omnipresent poverty and the not-quite-up-to-american-standards utility and government services, but there are worse things than that.

Anyone want to disagree?

Of course, lots of people moving INTO one of the most populated countries in the world may not work all that well..

Re:Not such a bad idea. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932433)

You forgot to mention the FOOD. Holy Christ, I ate at an Indian place one time, and about 15 minutes after I left, HUGE AMOUNTS OF SQUIRTY DIARRHEA. I can't understand how they eat that shit daily and their insides don't rot out. I'd rather eat a whole bucket full of wet feces than touch another plate of Meekrab.

Re:Not such a bad idea. (1)

stratjakt (596332) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932559)

Meekrab is a curse word. Please watch your mouth, lest you raise the ire of the Royal Knights of Standards and Practices.

The bigger story (5, Insightful)

cindik (650476) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932347)

of the two is the malware threat. Most countries have labor restrictions (when i went to an improv festival in Toronto, Canadian officials wanted to be certain I wasn't there to make $25 or so performing somewhere some night). But the risk of getting a little extra code in your outsourced project is something about which execs ought to be aware.

Re:The bigger story (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932540)

...Canadian officials wanted to be certain I wasn't there to make $25 or so performing somewhere some night...

That's because Canadian officials, like officials everywhere, are a bunch of ignorant assholes whose primary interest lies in enforcing ignorant rules written by ignorant politicians.

Fuck them all, that's what I say. What we need is less rules, less officials, and above all, less politicians. It would be a better world.

Especially Americans who whorked for SCO (5, Interesting)

heironymouscoward (683461) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932354)

Seriously: typical wage for Indian IT graduate: $200/month. Equivalent for US graduate: 10--20 times more.

It is almost redundant to say that Indian firms won't be hiring many Americans.

Curiously, my little firm is now subcontracting for Indian firms, so perhaps the rules can be bent a little for genius Belgians. C'est genial!

Re:Especially Americans who whorked for SCO (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932453)

Irrelevant or Moot maybe but no Redundant.

Re:Especially Americans who whorked for SCO (1)

Zed2K (313037) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932533)

Ok but what is the cost of living in India compared to the cost of living in say San Francisco or LA?

I bet you its about the same ratio lower to live in India.

Not exactly unfair or unusual. (5, Informative)

Altima(BoB) (602987) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932358)

With the exception of places like the EU, it is not unusual for foreigners to just pack up and grab a job someplace else. I doubt people will be surprised by this, considering that what happened three years ago today reminded people to tighten Visa restrictions. Who knows, it may have been much easier five years ago, but today that's just the way it is. Here in Ireland there are immigrants who are qualified doctors, but because they aren't allowed to work here as anything other than a fast food counter-person, their skills are totally wasted. It's not discrimination, it's just the way the world works.

Answer: Telecommute for India From the US. (0, Funny)

abstrakts (610619) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932359)

hey :)

What about convenience stores? (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932360)

They should let Americans work at Indian conveinence stores!

That way, no matter where it is in the world, it'll be fucking impossible to get a big gulp and a chilli dog.

Should read no forgieners .... (1, Insightful)

jj_johny (626460) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932369)

India is like every other third world country... its looking out for itself. It really doesn't need a bunch of people to come. They already have more than enough. So really what is this guy offering that the locals can't supply? Not much in their minds.

Re:Should read no forgieners .... (1)

NineNine (235196) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932479)

And what are Indians in this country offering that the locals can't supply?

Re:Should read no forgieners .... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932498)

India is like every other third world country... its looking out for itself.

Take out "third" and you would be more accurate.

hidden malware story (3, Informative)

herrvinny (698679) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932370)

Hidden malware in offshore products raises concerns

Story by Mark Willoughby

SEPTEMBER 11, 2003 ( COMPUTERWORLD ) - "You've go to be a little paranoid to survive in this business." -- Andrew S. Grove, chairman and founder, Intel Corp., ca. 1980
The extreme difficulty in discovering a back door hidden deep within a complex application, buried among numerous modules developed offshore in a global software marketplace, is forcing those assigned to protect sensitive national security information to take defensive actions.

The threat of hidden Trojan horses and back doors surfaced this summer when the governments of the U.S. and China announced plans to strengthen national security policies covering information processed by applications written in the global software marketplace. The private sector joined the fray with the August announcement of the File Signature Database, which will use hash values to protect software integrity from malicious additions (see story).

The National Security Agency's information assurance director, Daniel Wolf, in testimony before the House Select Committee on Homeland Security's cybersecurity subcommittee in July, called for a federal lab that would "find malicious software routines that are designed to morph and burrow into critical applications." Separately, the State Council of the People's Republic of China in August directed all government ministries to buy only Chinese software in the next upgrade cycle in an effort to encourage the development of local software companies but also to protect sensitive government data.

Mark Willoughby, CISSP, is a 20-year IT industry veteran and journalist with degrees in computer science and journalism. For the past seven years, he has tracked security and risk management start-ups and is a managing consultant at MessagingGroup, a Denver-based content development specialist.

Steps taken so far

The simmering global paranoia is rooted in the realization that no simple solution exists today, experts say. It is virtually impossible to find unauthorized malware hidden deep within a sophisticated multitiered application with data normalization, messaging middleware and other modules originating from labs in a half-dozen countries.

Robert Lentz, the U.S. Defense Department's director of information assurance, said in a written statement, "The DoD currently is studying several aspects of software assurance. The DoD has a current software acquisition policy. The group studying software assurance is looking to supplement that policy with strengthened mechanisms to increase our confidence in the security of both foreign and domestic software products."

Input, a Chantilly, Va.- based technology research firm, says federal government spending on IT products and services will grow 8.5% yearly from 2003 to 2008, from $45.4 billion to $68.2 billion. Approximately half of that spending will be in areas in which the government would like to see stronger information assurance.

Incidents of back doors compromising sensitive national security information may never be known. That's not so in the private sector.

"There have been a number of cases where software was found with intentionally planted back doors," said Shawn Hernan, team leader for vulnerability handling at the CERT Coordination Center at Carnegie Mellon University. "Most of these were for providing support, although no such support option was given to commercial customers. It's happened in both proprietary and open-sourced software."

Hernan said discovering hidden malware is one of the most difficult tasks facing an assurance investigator. CERT doesn't track vulnerabilities by country of origin, he added.

Software engineering processes are only now beginning to focus on providing traceability in security code. Traceability, which would allow a given line of code or a software module to be tracked back to the developer, is viewed as the Holy Grail in combating hidden malware. Traceability is also an effective tool for discovering software defects that expose an application to a myriad of exploits, viruses and worms.

Watts Humphrey, a fellow at the Software Engineering Institute (SEI), also at Carnegie Mellon, said the SEI's Capability Maturity Model (CMM) Level 5, the highest software quality certification, doesn't "extend traceability to individual programmers."

However, the SEI is introducing Team Process Software (TPS), which brings traceability of specific code modules to individual programmers, said Humphrey, a former IBM software engineering executive. Indian software companies and a few U.S. developers, notably Microsoft Corp., are aggressively implementing TPS.

"TPS gives team ownership of the [software] product," Humphrey said. It brings methods and processes that provide traceability and therefore accountability to individual programmers, and is equally adept at identifying and fixing software defects that result in security breaches.

The SEI conducted a special TPS security workshop at Microsoft headquarters in Redmond, Wash., last year. Microsoft's director of security engineering strategy, Steve Lipner, said individual accountability for developers is the primary focus of the company's Trustworthy Computing initiative.

Microsoft's focus on processes that make developers accountable will help to detect software defects, and "the same processes protect the integrity of the source code from internal threats," Lipner said.

Microsoft is also putting the Windows operating system through Common Criteria testing for an Evaluation Level 4 rating, which offers a baseline of assurance by indicating the rigors of the test performed, described as a security profile. The Common Criteria security profile is a battery of tests to check for common vulnerabilities. It doesn't specify the actual security of the software being evaluated, nor does it require identifying country of software origin.

However, "malware can be detected at the higher levels of Common Criteria testing," said Jim Fink, the U.S. director of the Common Criteria Testing Laboratory at Computer Sciences Corp. in El Segundo, Calif. But an Evaluation Level 5 through 7 rating requires examination of the application's source code, a costly and inexact process. Commercial software vendors are reluctant to share their source code, mindful of the intellectual property ramifications.

The weaknesses in Common Criteria testing in finding hidden malware in commercial software are contributing to paranoia on the matter. A spokesperson for the U.S. National Security Agency said a source code evaluation is likely to discover only "obvious vulnerabilities." Skilled programmers are very good at hiding malware of "moderate" and "high" attack potential, which even the most skilled code auditor may need some luck to discover, the NSA spokesperson said.

In an effort to allay hidden malware paranoia and protect access to the Chinese government software market, Microsoft earlier this year granted Windows source-code inspection rights to the Chinese government (see story). IDC, a Framingham, Mass.-based technology analyst, forecasts the Chinese public-sector software market to grow at 28% yearly, from $427 million this year to $939 million in 2006.

Oracle Corp. Chief Security Officer Mary Ann Davidson said the globalization of software development dictates global development processes. "The assumption is that everybody physically located outside the U.S. is more of a risk." But that assumption is incorrect, Davidson said, citing the many documented and publicized security lapses from trusted U.S. employees in both the public and private sector. Still, at the end of the day, with current tools, it's difficult to find hidden malware, she said.

Fifteen countries, mostly NATO members but also Israel, support the Common Criteria. Discussions are under way to add Japan, South Korea and Russia. India and China haven't committed to the process. Approximately 12 certified private-sector labs test off-the-shelf software for a Common Criteria Evaluation Level.

Duh (-1, Troll)

grub (11606) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932374)


Not to worry Bush will likely decide that it's time to "liberate" India. Of course the majority of jobs at the beginning will only be for the welfare-state they call "The Military"

Thank you, come again (-1, Offtopic)

MoxCamel (20484) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932381)

The world's first convenience store is at the top of a mountain in India. He may ask the wise cashier three questions, one of which could be to ask for his job back.

But only if he works for Kwiki-Mart. D'oh!

(+1 ObSimpsons)

My experience (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932390)

I need to go to the US to finish a contract I have with a US company. I only need to be there 3 days. Guess what, just for that, we need to fill in tons of paperwork to get a visa and the whole thing is likely going to cost more than anything else in the contract... What a good way to help the US companies/economy!

Do they hire Canadians? (1)

apoch2001 (701484) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932397)

Not that I want a job there but just wanted to know if other countries were exempt.

The job flow has to stop! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932402)

No more outsourcing jobs to the sand niggers. When the white power train comes, there will be no ticket for you. The white power train does not burn coal or wood, it burns mud-people. Mud-people like Dana Edwards.

What the case really is (4, Insightful)

GillBates0 (664202) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932404)

During the economic boom, and even before that, the US has always needed employees. The high job to population ratio meant less qualified people to fill up job vacancies. That's how the H1 visa program came into being, and was greatly appreciated during the 1990's boom.

Unlike the US, India, being a developing nation, with a very large economy has always had a dirth of jobs. There are a few hundred people to fill up a single job vacancy. Thus, India has *never* felt the need for foreign employees.

However, I know for a fact that a large number of Americans/Europeans (and even Russians in defense companies) regularly work on contract basis. I had a Russian neighbor long back, working in India on a 2 year contract with a defense company.

So people, before you start flaming, ponder over the fact that a law for hiring outside employees doesn't exist because there hasn't ever been a need for it. Now with the outsourcing, it may not be too long before the government comes up with an H-1 like plan.

/end rant.

Can't work there? Why are they here? (3, Insightful)

NineNine (235196) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932417)

OK, I had accepted the fact that H1B's killed the IT job market for Americans. Competition and all that. That's just fine. Shit happens. But if Americans can't work in India, then let's kick the damn H1B's out of this country. I had NO IDEA that Americans couldn't get an Indian job. If that really is true (although no real good source was cited), I say fuck 'em and give 'em the boot until India wants to open up it's doors to American workers.

Re:Can't work there? Why are they here? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932496)

You don't want to work in India. If you want to get back at those H1 people by going to India to work, you're a fool. You can "steal" the jobs back from them in the US just as easily, all you have to do is work for a wage that you will find ridiculously low.

Re:Can't work there? Why are they here? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932541)

Grow up. Sanjay won't let me play with his toy train so I am not going to play with him ever again. India has 1 Billion people to employ. The last thing they need is Americans coming in and taking quality jobs.

I think you underestimate.. (4, Interesting)

xtal (49134) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932556)

the level of difficulty one has immigrating to the USA, even on the H1 visa program.

Tech companies are looking to score! (1)

NetNinja (469346) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932419)

I guess with the big tech bust and investors very edgy on Tech stocks, Some companies are looking to make a major comeback by outsourcing for cheaper labor. 10% return on your investment isn't good enough anymore, that's if they are making that.

Look at Nike and Rebook. They make millions by paying children 50 cents a day and adulterer basketball players millions to endorse thier products!

Why would you want to work in India (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932423)

Everyone smells because they annoint themselves with cow piss.

This can't be true (3, Insightful)

etymxris (121288) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932434)

Our company is getting ready to send someone over to India to head up some outsourcing. He's British, but that should not be any significant difference. I haven't heard of any barrier for foreigners working in India. Anyone care to cite some relevant Indian law, rather than a few words at the tail end of an article?

Re:This can't be true (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932473)

If he's British, he would have an advantage over non-Commonwealth nationals.

Nothing new there... (1)

lord_paladine (568885) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932452)

A quick search through Jobstreet India [jobstreet.com] shows that many of the jobs listed state:
"Applicants should be Indian citizens or hold relevant residence status."

I really don't see why this should have surprised him.

In small business there is hope (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932454)

Small businesses tend to want to hire locals. It all comes down to the fact that small biz can't and won't put up with the beaurocratic overhead needed to outsource offshore.

They also tend to be more resistant to the hiring freezes and layoffs of large corporations durring recessions.

And if it were the other way around... (2, Insightful)

goldspider (445116) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932474)

I absolutely love reading this.

When it's Americans being forbidden to work in a foreign country, it's that country's right to do so.

But if it were the other way around, and Indian people coming to this country were suddenly forbidden to work here, imagine the uproar that would cause among Slashdotters!

Even if you are going to be wrong, at least be consistent!

text of /.ed computerworld article (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932477)

SEPTEMBER 11, 2003 ( COMPUTERWORLD ) - "You've go to be a little paranoid to survive in this business." -- Andrew S. Grove, chairman and founder, Intel Corp., ca. 1980

The extreme difficulty in discovering a back door hidden deep within a complex application, buried among numerous modules developed offshore in a global software marketplace, is forcing those assigned to protect sensitive national security information to take defensive actions.

The threat of hidden Trojan horses and back doors surfaced this summer when the governments of the U.S. and China announced plans to strengthen national security policies covering information processed by applications written in the global software marketplace. The private sector joined the fray with the August announcement of the File Signature Database, which will use hash values to protect software integrity from malicious additions (see story).

The National Security Agency's information assurance director, Daniel Wolf, in testimony before the House Select Committee on Homeland Security's cybersecurity subcommittee in July, called for a federal lab that would "find malicious software routines that are designed to morph and burrow into critical applications." Separately, the State Council of the People's Republic of China in August directed all government ministries to buy only Chinese software in the next upgrade cycle in an effort to encourage the development of local software companies but also to protect sensitive government data.

Mark Willoughby, CISSP, is a 20-year IT industry veteran and journalist with degrees in computer science and journalism. For the past seven years, he has tracked security and risk management start-ups and is a managing consultant at MessagingGroup, a Denver-based content development specialist.
Steps taken so far

The simmering global paranoia is rooted in the realization that no simple solution exists today, experts say. It is virtually impossible to find unauthorized malware hidden deep within a sophisticated multitiered application with data normalization, messaging middleware and other modules originating from labs in a half-dozen countries.

Robert Lentz, the U.S. Defense Department's director of information assurance, said in a written statement, "The DoD currently is studying several aspects of software assurance. The DoD has a current software acquisition policy. The group studying software assurance is looking to supplement that policy with strengthened mechanisms to increase our confidence in the security of both foreign and domestic software products."

Input, a Chantilly, Va.- based technology research firm, says federal government spending on IT products and services will grow 8.5% yearly from 2003 to 2008, from $45.4 billion to $68.2 billion. Approximately half of that spending will be in areas in which the government would like to see stronger information assurance.

Incidents of back doors compromising sensitive national security information may never be known. That's not so in the private sector.

"There have been a number of cases where software was found with intentionally planted back doors," said Shawn Hernan, team leader for vulnerability handling at the CERT Coordination Center at Carnegie Mellon University. "Most of these were for providing support, although no such support option was given to commercial customers. It's happened in both proprietary and open-sourced software."

Hernan said discovering hidden malware is one of the most difficult tasks facing an assurance investigator. CERT doesn't track vulnerabilities by country of origin, he added.

Software engineering processes are only now beginning to focus on providing traceability in security code. Traceability, which would allow a given line of code or a software module to be tracked back to the developer, is viewed as the Holy Grail in combating hidden malware. Traceability is also an effective tool for discovering software defects that expose an application to a myriad of exploits, viruses and worms.

Watts Humphrey, a fellow at the Software Engineering Institute (SEI), also at Carnegie Mellon, said the SEI's Capability Maturity Model (CMM) Level 5, the highest software quality certification, doesn't "extend traceability to individual programmers."

However, the SEI is introducing Team Process Software (TPS), which brings traceability of specific code modules to individual programmers, said Humphrey, a former IBM software engineering executive. Indian software companies and a few U.S. developers, notably Microsoft Corp., are aggressively implementing TPS.

"TPS gives team ownership of the [software] product," Humphrey said. It brings methods and processes that provide traceability and therefore accountability to individual programmers, and is equally adept at identifying and fixing software defects that result in security breaches.

The SEI conducted a special TPS security workshop at Microsoft headquarters in Redmond, Wash., last year. Microsoft's director of security engineering strategy, Steve Lipner, said individual accountability for developers is the primary focus of the company's Trustworthy Computing initiative.

Microsoft's focus on processes that make developers accountable will help to detect software defects, and "the same processes protect the integrity of the source code from internal threats," Lipner said.

Microsoft is also putting the Windows operating system through Common Criteria testing for an Evaluation Level 4 rating, which offers a baseline of assurance by indicating the rigors of the test performed, described as a security profile. The Common Criteria security profile is a battery of tests to check for common vulnerabilities. It doesn't specify the actual security of the software being evaluated, nor does it require identifying country of software origin.

However, "malware can be detected at the higher levels of Common Criteria testing," said Jim Fink, the U.S. director of the Common Criteria Testing Laboratory at Computer Sciences Corp. in El Segundo, Calif. But an Evaluation Level 5 through 7 rating requires examination of the application's source code, a costly and inexact process. Commercial software vendors are reluctant to share their source code, mindful of the intellectual property ramifications.

The weaknesses in Common Criteria testing in finding hidden malware in commercial software are contributing to paranoia on the matter. A spokesperson for the U.S. National Security Agency said a source code evaluation is likely to discover only "obvious vulnerabilities." Skilled programmers are very good at hiding malware of "moderate" and "high" attack potential, which even the most skilled code auditor may need some luck to discover, the NSA spokesperson said.

In an effort to allay hidden malware paranoia and protect access to the Chinese government software market, Microsoft earlier this year granted Windows source-code inspection rights to the Chinese government (see story). IDC, a Framingham, Mass.-based technology analyst, forecasts the Chinese public-sector software market to grow at 28% yearly, from $427 million this year to $939 million in 2006.

Oracle Corp. Chief Security Officer Mary Ann Davidson said the globalization of software development dictates global development processes. "The assumption is that everybody physically located outside the U.S. is more of a risk." But that assumption is incorrect, Davidson said, citing the many documented and publicized security lapses from trusted U.S. employees in both the public and private sector. Still, at the end of the day, with current tools, it's difficult to find hidden malware, she said.

Fifteen countries, mostly NATO members but also Israel, support the Common Criteria. Discussions are under way to add Japan, South Korea and Russia. India and China haven't committed to the process. Approximately 12 certified private-sector labs test off-the-shelf software for a Common Criteria Evaluation Level.

Yep - (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932480)

My division, in one of the big (probably the biggest other than microsoft) tech companies has been shutting down our site and moving the jobs to India.

Of course, we are all offered positions within the company before we are kicked out of the door, and we are supposed to be able to apply anywhere in the company.

One individual here, who really wanted to move to India, (and accept the reduced pay, etc) is an exceptional candidate. The managers in Bangalore (same comapny here) WILL NOT CALL HIM BACK. It flies in the face of all of the companies published policies, but of course, nothing happens.

Why yes, it *is* illegal to work with no visa (5, Insightful)

kahei (466208) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932491)


I have to inject dull ol' reality into another 'The Indians Are Coming!' flap, but why exactly is it surprising that he can go to India on holiday and can't work there? Does he have a work visa for India? Are Indians allowed to work in the US with no visa?

I always figured the general pattern was that to work in country A, you need to be a citizen of country A or have a work permit issued by country A. Did this suddenly stop applying in the case of Americans wanting to work in India?

Other than that, well, it's a competitive marketplace. If other people are selling the same skills -- or what are percieved as the same skills -- cheaper, then he's got to change something.

Incidentally, I've known some terrible experiences with outsourcing to cheap countries and I think it's generally a false economy. But on the other hand, I think I'd rather have a disoriented and inexperienced Indian working for me than listen to this guy's whining.

citizenship (1)

perlchild (582235) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932499)

hmm and becoming a citizen might be harder in India than in the USA because they are highly overpopulated and the USA isn't...

It might explain why he can't get a work Visa OR become a citizen. Depleted scarce resource: citizenship in the fastest-growing population in the world. The fact that they need to import money to feed all those people is probably explained somewhere in macroeconomics.

Since the USA's richess comes from a lot of things, but mostly not from natural resources, they tend to export money(IANAMEBIWMAOIAJ: I am not a macroeconomist, but I would moonlight as one in a jiffy).

Won't hire Americans? (1)

schussat (33312) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932505)

They won't hire Americans? I guess some of those ex-SCO employees can cross one more address [slashdot.org] off their list of places to send applications.

-schussat

This kind of bullshit belongs on Fark (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932509)

The headline and entire viewpoint of this posting come from just 2 sentences at the very end of the article (which is just an aside)

OK, no programming job in India. (2, Funny)

Tool Man (9826) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932519)

But what about the taxis?

TPS Report? (5, Funny)

mkldev (219128) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932522)

Something I found amusing from the article:

However, the SEI is introducing Team Process Software (TPS), which brings traceability of specific code modules to individual programmers, said Humphrey, a former IBM software engineering executive. Indian software companies and a few U.S. developers, notably Microsoft Corp., are aggressively implementing TPS.

To which my immediate reply was, "Did you remember to include the right cover on your TPS report?" :-)

Unions made the IT jobs leave! (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#6932542)

Oh...wait a minute, there was no IT union. This computer outsourcing reminds me of the blame that's placed on unions for the factory jobs leaving the country.

No computer union, and the companies outsourced anyway.

Unemployment Rate is higher in INDIA (1)

deadmongrel (621467) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932553)

look at it this way. India produces more engineers than any country in the world. The problem is there is no work for these people in India. The unemployment rate is higher and a population nearing more than a billion there is not enough space to live in cities. At least you have the *option* to work in stores here in the US. now i am not saying every one should do that but its still an option viable or not its upto the individual to decide.

It's not called stealing (2, Insightful)

sonali (619788) | more than 10 years ago | (#6932567)

What I don't get from all theses articles/posts about India-stealing-jobs-from-US, is why they use the word stealing. All India is doing is improving its economy. India is not stealing any jobs, and the reason why US is outsourcing to India is simply because its cheaper. That's India's "strength" :people and lots of it. So what are Indian companies supposed to say when US companies ask them for outsourcing: Hey we can't take your jobs. We are really worreid about your economy but not ours.
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