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China Joins EU in Galileo Satellite Venture

michael posted more than 10 years ago | from the second-superpower dept.

Space 376

CHaN_316 writes "Yahoo has posted a story that says China to Participate in Galileo Satellite Program. 'The agreement provides for cooperation in satellite navigation, technology, industrial manufacturing, market development, frequency and certification'. This is definitely a good boost to the satellite program since it injects fresh cash into the project. There are probably strategic reasons for joining this network since it's an alternative to the American controlled GPS system. Here's more information about Galileo." China is also moving quickly toward getting a man in space.

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death threat! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7005617)

if this isn't FP i'll kill myself

Re:death threat! (-1, Offtopic)

gregarican (694358) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005689)

Maybe you could open for the Tampa, FL band Hell on Earth [orlandosentinel.com] . They are promising to have an onstage suicide next month. Jump on board!

More Targets... (-1, Flamebait)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005628)

It's just more targets for our (The USA's) antisat weapons program.

Re:More Targets... (1)

arcanumas (646807) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005697)

You only THINK it is. In reallity the Galileo project is an advanced Anti-anti sat project aimed at you antsat weapons.
We win :)

Re:More Targets... (-1, Flamebait)

amightywind (691887) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005714)

It's just more targets for our (The USA's) antisat weapons program.

It is interesting that China is aligned with Europe on this one. It is likely that the U.S. will have to develop jamming equipment and weapons to be used against a system deployed by our supposed NATO allies. It is the start of a new arms race initiated by the Europeans.

Re:More Targets... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7005736)

Well ex-fucking-cuse us for not being dependant on your satellite system.

Re:More Targets... (0, Flamebait)

aprentic (1832) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005864)

How is this an arms race started by the Europeans?
Didn't the US have GPS up first?

The US doesn't have to develop jamming equipment against Galileo.

I find it interesting that in American English, "ally" apparantly means "lackey", or perhaps "bitch". As in "What?! Our supposed allies dare to question us? What arrogance!"

Some 'Allies'... (5, Interesting)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005901)

From http://www-cgsc.army.mil/milrev/English/MarApr01/a dams.asp

GPS Signals Jammed During Tank Trials

Lieutenant Colonel Lester W. Grau, US Army, Retired

Based on 6 August 2000 reports in The Sunday Times of London, Agence France-Presse and the 25 September 2000 Elevtheros Tipos, Athens

The highly accurate Global Positioning System (GPS) supports modern ground forces as they move and shoot. Maps and compasses stay in cases as digitized forces quickly use GPS to determine their location and the enemy's. Although map-reading skills atrophy, few worry that GPS may suddenly provide erroneous information or cease working. Still, US Army equipment has already faced attacks on GPS functions--by allies.

In August 2000 the Greek government sponsored a tank competition at Litokhoro to determine the Greek army's next tank--a deal worth $1.4 billion for 250 tanks. Competitors included the British Challenger 2E, the US M1A1 Abrams, the German Leopard 2A5 and the French Leclerc. During the trials, the British and US tanks had navigation problems despite using multiple GPS satellites to determine their positions precisely. After the embarrassing performance, officials discovered that the GPS satellites were being jammed--by a French security agency. Less than a foot high, the jammers transmitted stronger signals than satellites on the same frequency. The jammers were reportedly hidden on the firing range and remotely activated as US and British tanks were tested.

Greek defense officials found the jamming episode rather amusing and discounted the associated technical problems. The threat remains: if an ally can create such havoc during a test, what effect could hostile GPS jamming have during combat?

Re:Some 'Allies'... (2, Insightful)

aprentic (1832) | more than 10 years ago | (#7006007)

I fail to see how this is evidence that France is not an ally of the US.

It's not as if France where jamming US tanks during actual combat and endangering lives or equipment. Granted it's a skeezy, and probably illegal, thing to do during contract bidding. But the US is way ahead of most of the rest of the world in that game.

Furthermore the article does not indicate whether or not the French tanks would have been susceptible to the same technique. If not it's a totally valid variable in the test. If you can do this with 1 foot transmitters it's likely something that real enemies would use. Except they'd back it up with anti-tank missiles.

And, since it happened during peace time, the DOD now has the opportunity to come up with a workaround for this problem so it won't effect them during actual combat.

But stick to the topic at hand. How is the EU's decision to build it's own positioning system un-ally like behavior?

Re:More Targets... (2, Funny)

I8TheWorm (645702) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005918)

How is this an arms race started by the Europeans? Didn't the US have GPS up first?

Becuase it's not a race if only one person is in it ;)

Re:More Targets... (1)

aprentic (1832) | more than 10 years ago | (#7006035)

But it's not an arms race until you start treating it as military technology. Galileo is mostly geared for civilian use. If the US starts comming up with technology to jam it, then it's the US which is turning it into an arms race.

Joint-Venture (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7005650)

China says it has high hopes for its Garireo joint-venture.

Re:Joint-Venture (1)

arcanumas (646807) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005843)

Great. As soon as they join in , they rename it to Garireo. Those bastards.

Re:Joint-Venture (2, Informative)

pinkboi (533214) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005885)

That's the Japanese that can't pronounce their Rs. Geez, get yer demeaning national stereotypes right

Re:Joint-Venture (3, Informative)

mikelu (120879) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005917)

FYI, Chinese has an "l" sound.

The most difficult sound for Mandarin Chinese speakers to pronounce is "th", as in the word "the". It tends to come out more like "z".

Re:Joint-Venture (5, Funny)

gregarican (694358) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005946)

We didn't say space camera, we said space gamera [digitalmonsterisland.com] !

And in OTHER news, Slashmods SUCK (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7005957)

There's a whole lot-o-suckin' going on at OSDN... I hear-tell they got some real professional salad tossers there.

Trolls need love, too... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7005652)

I'm sure this will be controversial, but trolls need love too. In fact, trolls probably need more love than your average slashbot - slashbots get positive reinforcement, after all.

There. I've stated the painful truth: trolls need love. Now let me tell you why.

Most of us were abused as children, or are being abused now, or have suffered mightily in some way. We have self esteem problems, we don't have confidence, we don't feel loved. We want positive attention and all the things "normal" people have, but we feel like we are unworthy of it.

An old saying rings true here: "If the only potato chip a hungry child can have is a soggy potato chip, there is nothing more important to that child than the soggy potato chip." Well, that describes us trolls perfectly. We are hungry for attention and all we know is that we do not warrant positive attention, so we type "fristus postus" and post goatse [goatse.cx] links and shoot for the negative potato chip of a (-1 Troll), or a (-1 Flamebait). Off-topic and redundant mods are like half a soggy potato chip - just enough to whet the appetite for more.

So do the world a favor. end the cycle of abuse. Mod one troll - just one - up, and you will be rewarded for life because you gave a hungry child a dry potato chip. Share the love, won't you?

Don't Worry, Baby (-1)

The Lyrics Guy (539223) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005667)

The Beach Boys - Don't Worry, Baby

Well its been building up inside of me for
Oh I don't know how long
I don't know why, but I keep thinking
Something's bound to go wrong

But she looks in my eyes
And makes me realize
And she says "Don't worry baby "
Don't worry baby
Don't worry baby
Everything will turn out alright
Don't worry baby
Don't worry baby
Don't worry baby

I guess I should've kept my mouth shut
When I started to brag about my car
But I can't back down now
I pushed the other guys too far

She makes me come alive
And makes me wanna drive
When she says "Don't worry baby "
Don't worry baby
Don't worry baby
Everything will turn out alright
Don't worry baby
Don't worry baby
Don't worry baby

She told me "Baby, when you race today
Just take along my love with you
And if you know how much I loved you
Baby nothing could go wrong with you"

Oh what she does to me
When she makes love to me
And she says "Don't worry baby "
Don't worry baby
Don't worry baby
Everything will turn out alright
Don't worry baby
Don't worry baby
Don't worry baby

Dupe (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7005668)

This story is a dupe. It was posted before [slashdot.org]

Fuck (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7005673)

all the GOOKS, SLOPES, and CHINKS. We all know the
white man rules.
Just try and fuck with us.
BTW, learn how to drive... SLOPES!

Oh, great... (-1, Flamebait)

GeneralEmergency (240687) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005678)

Thats all I need. Chinese cruise missiles raining down on my ass.

BTW...anyone know what the state of our anti-sat weaponry capabilities are lately?

Re:Oh, great... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7005845)

Idiot.

In case you forgot, its your country and its government which are the ones who like to rain cruise missiles down on innocents. Try not to confuse yourself again in the future.

Re:Oh, great... (1, Flamebait)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005960)

And if the countries we 'rain cruise missles down on' would stop supporting people who think it is ok to kill bus loads of women/kids then, perhaps, we would not bomb them.

Re:Oh, great... (1)

sapone (152094) | more than 10 years ago | (#7006059)

And if the countries that like to 'rain cruise missiles down on' other countries ceased doing that, maybe those who think it is ok to 'kill bus loads of women/kids' of the bomb-throwing country would stop thinking that way.

Re:Oh, great... (0, Troll)

chef_raekwon (411401) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005906)

BTW...anyone know what the state of our anti-sat weaponry capabilities are lately?

they're built, but they don't work.

( i wish i knew a link for this...but, the Military in the US is having this problem -- paid millions of dollars for technology that doesnt work -- just to pad a bunch of higher ups pockets...)

IN SOVIET CHINA.... (-1, Troll)

devphaeton (695736) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005679)

I thought china was the "new russia"...

I was kinda hoping for a second arms race and space race with china. Some cold war action, crappy New Wave music with guys wearing planterboxes on thier heads. You know, 1980's nostalgia all over again.

Does this mean we'll get spammed from space too?

Religious persecution (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7005680)

Fuck China! They round up Falun Dafa followers and throw their ass in prison simply because of their religion. The Chinese gov't tortures and murders Falun Gong/Falun Dafa by the tens of thousands.

Screw those fuckers.

Re:Religious persecution (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7005866)

Yes, and in america it is the exact opposite. You can treated like total shit if your an athiest.

They're a bit late! (5, Funny)

earthloop (449575) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005701)

Galileo is to plumet into Jupiters atmosphere on Sunday!

ha (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7005705)

Great, now there will be cheap plastic satellites with "Made in China" stamped on them falling into my backyard every other day.

Re:ha (1)

arcanumas (646807) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005874)

IT sure beats a massive metallic American satellite droping into your backyard.

Galileo on BBC.. (5, Informative)

adeyadey (678765) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005706)

Story also on BBC NEWS [bbc.co.uk] - China will cough up 259 mega-dollars towards the costs. The Pentagon are not too happy about it, but it does give the EU a way to do important things like landing planes, without worrying that someone else could throw the switch.

Re:Galileo on BBC.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7005848)

landing planes?

i wouldnt want to be aboard a plane that has a landingsystem that has a 10m error ratio

Re:Galileo on BBC.. (1)

el-spectre (668104) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005962)

GPS has considerably more accuracy than a 10m fix, but it is typically limited to military type folks. I'd imagine that airlines have/could get the same access.

Re:Galileo on BBC.. (2, Informative)

MShook (526815) | more than 10 years ago | (#7006010)

Obviously the parent poster doesn't know that planes don't use GPS to land but ILS (google CAT-III ILS if you want to learn more)...
In fact, except in the military not many of them (ie jetliners) are equipped with GPS.

Re:Galileo on BBC.. (5, Funny)

mz001b (122709) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005863)

China will cough up 259 mega-dollars towards the costs.

Wait, is that $259 million or $272 million? I smell a lawsuit...

Re:Galileo on BBC.. (4, Insightful)

presroi (657709) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005902)

The same applies to Galileo. How can anyone be sure that the EU won't "throw the switch"?

The answer is that this question is obsolete. Next Generation Positioning Systems will be able to get information out from GPS, from Galileo and maybe from LORAN-C or the local GSM-cellphone cell information as a fallback.

I consider redundancy as a mayor pro argument even in the eyes of American companies and .gov institutions.

Re:Galileo on BBC.. (1)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005992)

How much of a cut will the PRC/PLA get of the fees that the EU will charge for access to the 'good' quality signals?

Leave the flags out of it (2, Troll)

Amsterdam Vallon (639622) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005710)

Why must nations always get involved and turn space exploration into an Us vs. Them contest?

I wish we could all just work together, share ideas (much in the same manner that Linux engineers share programming code), and unite to accomplish one common goal, such as a manned mission to Mars.

This would lower taxes, make a Mars mission occur much sooner, and encourage a gentle more loving dialogue between the mainstream nations and rogue nations.

We owe it to science to drop our national flags in the name of progress. Please reply with, a) the country you currently reside in and b) whether you think your country would work with the United States in a joint space mission and c) (optional) if possible, state your country's current economic spending on space missions.

Thank you! This should make for interesting data.

Short memory? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7005758)

Remember that the 60's "SPACE RACE" (it was called that for a reason) was sparked by US-Soviet competition.

Also observe that innovation in space exploration has been pretty much nil since, say, Apollo-Soyuz.

Re:Leave the flags out of it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7005778)

I wish we could all just work together, share ideas (much in the same manner that Linux engineers share programming code), and unite to accomplish one common goal, such as a manned mission to Mars.

Ok, I modded your post as "funny" and here is why: I've never seen people disagree as much as linux software 'engineers'

Ever watch the 'BSD is dying' and 'slackware sucks' threads? I mean, come on. Maybe it is just the linux lusers arguing... that is a valid point, but I imagine plenty of linux programmers take part in the flame wars.

Can't we just get along and create a killer os?

ATTN: APA (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7005836)

Asking people to reply is gay, you should write your trolls in such a way that slashbots are angered and personally insulted enough to reply without any begging on your part.

BITCH.

Re:Leave the flags out of it (-1, Flamebait)

mystik (38627) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005853)

It's unfortunate, but it's because other nations [rightly so] distrust the U.S.

I don't think we'll ever have world peace and collaboration until everyone starts trusting everyone else. And then all it will take is one bad apple to screw it up for all of us.

It's great being human.

Re:Leave the flags out of it (3, Insightful)

isa-kuruption (317695) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005916)

Like Carter trusted the USSR? Right before they went into Afghanistan?

Just like France trusted Germany? Just before Germany walked into France? (WWII)

Just like the USSR trusted Germany? Just before they walked into Poland? (WWII)

Shall I go on?

Ignorance is thinking everyone should get along. More ignorance is spouted by saying dumb shit like "other nations [rightly so] distrust the U.S.".

You obviously have not learned from history... as you seem doomed to repeat it.

Remember, the U.S. will allow the Chinese to "join" with us in our space ventures when they stop oppressing their own people for both political and religion reasons... and stop oppressing the free, democratic people of Taiwan by letting them have their own seat at the U.N.

Re:Leave the flags out of it (2, Interesting)

azzy (86427) | more than 10 years ago | (#7006066)

China says:

We will allow the USA to "join" with us in our space ventures when they stop oppressing their own people ... and stop oppressing free, democratic people

Taiwan and a UN seat. (1)

mikelu (120879) | more than 10 years ago | (#7006075)

The only reason Taiwan doesn't have a seat on the UN is because they claim to be the "true" government of the Chinese people. As a government in exile, they get nothing. If they declared themselves a sovereign nation separate from China, they would have their seat in a day. (Barring, of course, invasion from the PRC, which is entirely possible)

Re:Leave the flags out of it (2, Insightful)

baileytal (692920) | more than 10 years ago | (#7006079)

Remember, the U.S. will allow the Chinese to "join" with us in our space ventures when they stop oppressing their own people for both political and religion reasons... and stop oppressing the free, democratic people of Taiwan by letting them have their own seat at the U.N.

Uh huh. What about the US's trade ventures? China's appalling HR record doesn't seem particularly relevant to those. I suppose one must keep things in petrspective, though. I mean, we can't let HR get in the way of the real money-makers.

Re:Leave the flags out of it (1)

letxa2000 (215841) | more than 10 years ago | (#7006045)

It's unfortunate, but it's because other nations [rightly so] distrust the U.S.

Everyone picks on the U.S. because, well, we're an easy target. We're big, successful, and powerful. And it's got to rub a lot of "old powers" the wrong way. They were the head honchos in the last millenium and they probably cling to some such dreams.

The biggest, most successful everything is always the lightning rod and easy target for criticisms. In computers, Microsoft is the lightning rod. In Internet, AOL is (or maybe was) the lightning rod. In world politics it's the same. The U.S. is the biggest, richest and most powerful so the world just blames it for all its woes whether it is or not. We get criticized when we act (in Iraq) but also get criticized for not acting fast enough (in WWII). It's damned if you do, damned if you don't.

The best response is to ignore most U.S. criticism or at least recognize that a vast majority of it is jealousy or resentment because of the overwhelming success that is the U.S. That puts most of it in perspective.

Re:Leave the flags out of it (2, Funny)

I8TheWorm (645702) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005858)

a) the country you currently reside in and b) whether you think your country would work with the United States in a joint space mission and c) (optional) if possible, state your country's current economic spending on space missions.

  1. the United States
  2. No, I don't think the US will work with the US.. seems each department here is out to get the other
  3. not nearly enough

Re:Leave the flags out of it (2, Insightful)

AKnightCowboy (608632) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005868)

I wish we could all just work together, share ideas (much in the same manner that Linux engineers share programming code), and unite to accomplish one common goal, such as a manned mission to Mars. This would lower taxes, make a Mars mission occur much sooner, and encourage a gentle more loving dialogue between the mainstream nations and rogue nations.

That was the goal of the ISS. It's tens of billions of dollars over budget, other nations have not gotten their modules finished or demanded cash from the US (Russia has done this for example in the past) and is basically a huge boondoggle. International cooperation on space exploration doesn't work. It's better to make it into a race.

Re:Leave the flags out of it (1, Troll)

chef_raekwon (411401) | more than 10 years ago | (#7006002)

other nations have not gotten their modules finished or demanded cash from the US

generally this is horseshit -- aside from Russia. Basically, the problem is NASA- - they want full control of everything, deciding WHO goes where, and why. This type of control has reduced the manned ISS from 5 units to 3, cutting out many Europeans and Japanese astronauts and scientists.

So, if I were the EU - I'd stack the cards so shit like that didn't happen anymore. Atleast now, it will be done right, not simply done (because thats how it was dictated by the current administration/military because the money is better used on Bombing Iraq)...

Re:Leave the flags out of it (0, Flamebait)

shaka999 (335100) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005883)

The satellite network is a bit different than a mission to Mars. This has direct influence on various nations national security.

That aside, I for one, don't want to be in bed with countries that have radically different beliefs. How close should the US be to a country such as China who kills off newborns in the name of population control?

Re:Leave the flags out of it (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7005994)

That aside, I for one, don't want to be in bed with countries that have radically different beliefs.

if you look at a similar situation in a democracy between 2 political parties with opposing views, they have to work together on somethings to have government function smoothly. Its all about forming alliances for a specific goal and not being worried about the rest. Yes, I eat rice and you eat bread and pasta - but we both can sit together and get a project off the ground. You dont question what I eat and why I eat it and I wont question you either. It all boils down to that. Also hate begets hate. Its truely unprofessional for a scientist/techie to refuse cooperating with someone for a peaceful goal for apparent personal convictions.

Re:Leave the flags out of it (5, Informative)

amightywind (691887) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005953)

Why must nations always get involved and turn space exploration into an Us vs. Them contest?

Good question. Fear and paranoia drove the US to the greatest technical achievement of the millenium with the moon landings. Since then it has been all hugs and kisses with the Russians in the space station and no progress! I'll take the competition, and progress.

Re:Leave the flags out of it (1)

imsabbel (611519) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005985)

Its the USA that creates the feeling of nation vs USA.
Only a month or zwo ago, a leaked paper told about us plans to shoot down foreign satellites to make space a us-only zone if they are potentially dangerous for the us. or theis paranoia.

GPS is a service provides by the US MILITARY. They can flip a switch and it is off.

Re:Leave the flags out of it (1)

jdiggans (61449) | more than 10 years ago | (#7006028)

hippy. :)
-j

Re:Leave the flags out of it (1)

linzeal (197905) | more than 10 years ago | (#7006057)

Humanity will not be united till they are roughly equal in terms of access to technology, education, political freedom, and a litany of other add-ons for Eglitarian Society Alpha .1. Anyone want to write the code for such a society open source-like and the rest of us can try to compile it?

good to hear (2, Interesting)

bongobongo (608275) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005715)

i like reading news where china is collaborating with the west, rather than taking pains to block it out (eg great firewall of china)

granted, this is a pretty high level program but the idea of it is good.

or maybe china is gearing up for a space coup to take over the world and we're all doomed. i'll need to think about the significance of this one :)

Re:good to hear (0, Flamebait)

JoeBuck (7947) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005775)

Thanks to the fact that George Bush is scaring the world to death, you'll increasingly see Europe working with Russia and China to limit our influence.

In particular, the US reserves the best GPS data for the military, and openly says that it will turn GPS signals off at any time if this is militarily useful. In the past, people generally expected the US to be reasonable, so they didn't much care. But in today's climate, with leading American opinionmakers openly calling for war on France, the Europeans and Chinese would have to be idiots to rely on the US-controlled GPS. The Galileo system is a vote of no confidence in the US.

"Man in Space" Propaganda (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7005716)

All these claims of putting a man in space by the Chinese and Indian governments is nothing more than propadanda. They don't have the engineering talent to pull off what the Soviets and Americans were able to do 40 years ago.

Re:"Man in Space" Propaganda (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7005809)

Leave india out of this. India just plans to send a probe to the moon.

Echoes (1)

Gonoff (88518) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005812)

Sounds like what experts said 45 years ago when they were rubbishing the idea that the USSR could put anything into space.
Sounds like what I understand all the generals were saying when Mig15s started shooting down our planes in Korea!

Just because you & I have a low opinion about the social order of a society, it doesn't mean that there are not a number of well funded clever people there...

suckers (-1, Offtopic)

rakerman (409507) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005721)

Galileo is going to crash into Jupiter :)

Good or bad (2, Insightful)

Docrates (148350) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005746)

I can't make up my mind. On one hand, it's just stupid for humanity as a race to have two competing satellite based positioning systems, when one can be shared and the resources used for the other could be used for, say, more research or a new launch system.

Oh the other hand, it's this competition that usually drives progress. So far, the one for all and all for one model (soviets) seems to have failed while the super-capitalistic model (america) seems to be winning, but looking back 1000 years from now, is this the model that will perpetuate our presence in the universe?

US vs. Them (4, Insightful)

rde (17364) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005755)

Any time I've seen Galileo mentioned in the US media, it's been treated as some sort of anti-US measure; it isn't.

Well, it isn't totally an anti-US measure. We just don't like the idea of a system on which our lives increasingly depend being under the control of a foreign military. Doesn't really matter who that military is; any system where you can find yourself suddenly lost at the whim of some general half a world away is a system to be avoided. And as the Iraq war is showing, the US is increasingly cagey (cagy? How do you spell that damn word?) about others using its system in time of war. And that time of war looks like it's going to extend indefinitely.

<anti-US bit>
Of course, the advent of Chinese involvement is, I hope a sign of things to come. Kyoto and others have shown that disaster doesn't necessarily follow when the US says 'no', and that the best attitude the world can have may well be "fuck 'em, and carry on regardless".

I'd love to see one big happy world, but in its absence I'm reasonably satisfied with one big, happy world-except-America.
</anti-US>

let the flames begin...

Re:US vs. Them (0, Offtopic)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005924)

I have to ask, why do you think China (of all places) is better than the USA?

Re:US vs. Them (3, Interesting)

rde (17364) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005973)

That's exactly the sort of question the US media asks. And if you read my post again, you'll notice that nowhere did I say that china was better than the US (but seeing as you asked, I prefer chinese movies to the vast majority of the American films I've seen).

I'd be delighted - and indeed would dance a little jig - if the US were to say suddenly "okay, GPS is now under the control of the UN". But until they do, I'll do the next best thing, and celebrate a project that's a civilian operation that encompasses not just the EU but China (and probably more in future), and will serve not just as a safeguard against the whims of a single nation, but will serve to make that single nation's system more accurate and reliable for all users, be they from the EU, the US, China or Freedonia.

Re:US vs. Them (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7006011)

You're just a jealous brit. Why don't you worry about your own shithole nation for a change?

How would this be any different? (1)

Atario (673917) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005934)

Do you think the new system will not be similarly at the mercy of some general's fiat? Only that the general will perhaps be Chinese (regardless of how tasty his chicken may be)?

The question is, who would you rather be at the mercy of? The US or China? Think hard.

Re:US vs. Them (2, Insightful)

RobotRunAmok (595286) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005938)

I'd love to see one big happy world

So did the Tibetans.

Re:US vs. Them (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7005945)

"Kyoto and others have shown that disaster doesn't necessarily follow when the US says 'no'"

Here is a list of every European country that has ratified the Kyoto Protocol:





Perhaps it is because China, India, Mexico, Indonesia, and Brazil were all to be exempt from any of these regulations.

Re:US vs. Them (3, Insightful)

The Ape With No Name (213531) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005993)

Of course, the advent of Chinese involvement is, I hope a sign of things to come. Kyoto and others have shown that disaster doesn't necessarily follow when the US says 'no', and that the best attitude the world can have may well be "fuck 'em, and carry on regardless".

As a USAian who lives, works and studies overseas, I am someone who knows that 1. "furriners" are actually reflective caring people and 2. esp. Europeans, they are sick of war and, gosh almighty, have learned from mistakes. I can tell you that it is my sincere hope that a second way develops, but don't give up hope on us. The US is an extremely polarized country right now. There are people in my office (I am back living in the States) that are downright primed to kill everything they see, willingly, simply because the refuse to say "Wait a minute."

The 'left' in America (I don't think there really has ever been such a thing) is, it appears, getting its shit together and finally realizing that ideology must give way to pragmatism. Otherwise, you get totalitarian monsters like Rove, Rumsfeld, Cheney and Wolfowitz at the helm. Anyone with half-an-unindoctrinated brain knew the fix was in when Bush was elected.....

Still, Galileo is going to be a cool alternative if only for comparative purposes. I understand that the designer got the bands on either side of GPS from ICU and that DOD can't scramble Galileo with out stomping its own encrypted channels. Heh.

the big happy world (1)

arashiakari (633150) | more than 10 years ago | (#7006061)

I agree with you in that nobody should wait around for the U.S. to stamp their approval on their lives. By all means proceed with the persuit of excellence.

When people do anything to support communism /in any way/ you have to understand why American's react as they do. Communism strips people of their dignity and freedom and erodes any concept of human rights. It is fundamentally war-oriented and diametrically opposed to the existance of opposing schools of thought: I.E. democracy. It isn't a "big happy world," either so spare us the hubris. There are a lot of people who's lives are literally broken by bloody tyrants in places like Communist China, Africa, and the middle-east. People said of those in Iraq, "They're not good enough for democracy, they're not advanced enough." That's racism, folks... every human spirit years to be free. It is very important to note that no governmental decision should be made in a vacuum outside the framework of interest and information in the rest of the world. China doesn't need any help producing long-range ballistic missile technology... which is just a whisker away from any aerospace research that might be shared to them.

I am a little shocked by your statement: "reasonably satisfied with one big, happy world-except-America."

Take the united states out of the world, and imagine the reprocussions. Look at all the R&D contributions we have made to the global quality of life over the last 100 years. Look who spilled their blood to spare everyone from Japanese and German occupation. Who is sending and supplying soldiers to guard the wall between terrorists and free people everywhere? Who just spend $10,000,000,000 on HIV/AIDS in Africa? Not the EU.

People get overobsessed with "the sins of America," even if they don't know any of them, but let me tell you ... the "goodness of America" is much greater, FAR out of proportion to any of its mistakes.

Does the EU/China really think... (2, Interesting)

1337_h4x0r (643377) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005776)

That they'll be able to use this in Wartime? If the US Govt is willing to alter GPS to their whims, whats to stop the air force from lofting a few ASAT missiles to accomplish the same goal? Taking away the enemies ability to navigate would be priceless.

Re:Does the EU/China really think... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7005880)

Largely because that would be seen as an act of war by the governments holding the keys to those sats. Sure if the US wants to make an enemie out of all those countries thats cool, if not pretty stupid.

Re:Does the EU/China really think... (1)

Mr.Sharpy (472377) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005925)

What if they launched reflective mylar bags (designed to decay at a known rate in orbital radiation levels) at the foreign satellites that would enclose them and prevent them from working properly. Would that be an act of war? The satellite is not destroyed, just temporarily disabled.

Additionally, since Galileo would be a joint venture, who would the act of war be commited against. All of the members in the consortium? I would think that would require a co-defense treaty or pact between the members. I highly doubt that will ever come about as long as NATO exists.

Re:Does the EU/China really think... (1)

sapone (152094) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005895)

What exactly makes you think Galileo is meant for a war involving the US?

Re:Does the EU/China really think... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7005963)

The fact that every country in the world will be able to use it for free to guide cruise missiles to their destination and that the EU has stated that they will not degrade the signal while the US is at war.

Re:Does the EU/China really think... (1)

sapone (152094) | more than 10 years ago | (#7006033)

You did not answer my question - of course any satellite-based navigation system might be used to guide missiles. That is not much different to the situation with GPS.

Why does that make you think it is Galileo's *purpose* to be used in a war against the US?

Re:Does the EU/China really think... (1)

imsabbel (611519) | more than 10 years ago | (#7006027)

why should WE degrade our signal accuracy because your fucking country decides to start a war?

You need only -+30-50m accuracy to guide a cruise missile. There are tons of stuff that would stop working if you reduce accuracy below that level.

Re:Does the EU/China really think... (1)

1337_h4x0r (643377) | more than 10 years ago | (#7006048)

In a war, the point is to take away the other guys ability to fight. If he relies on Galilleo and we have the ability to take it out, don't think we won't. We might compensate those who bought the system for the interruption, but much worse things have been done in the name of tactical advantage.

Re:Does the EU/China really think... (1)

Mr.Sharpy (472377) | more than 10 years ago | (#7006065)

Most likely because if the US wanted your signal accuracy degraded and you did not comply, we would do it for you if we thought it was essential to the success of our mission or the safety of our people.

Stop US military ambitions (2, Insightful)

axxackall (579006) | more than 10 years ago | (#7006072)

There are still many idiots in US thinking about a nuclear world war. Most of them have voted for the current president. Or another way around: most of current president votes were from such idiots.

As it is now EU is not capable to begin any serious wars. Not from military capability prospective - such decision would be politically impossible in EU. China is also not that stupid to through nuclear warheads here and there - they realize that that would be the end for all of us.

The problem is that US administration is driven by corporations, currently by those who is benefiting from any military race. And there is no way to stop them.

Re:Does the EU/China really think... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7005965)

and who would stop the EU/China/whoever to get rid of the GPS satellites the same way?

Re:Does the EU/China really think... (2, Insightful)

sheriff_p (138609) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005969)

Hrm, maybe because it'd be seen as an act of war, and at least three of the contributing countries have enough operational nuclear warheads to turn America into a small and insignificant pile of radioactive dust?

Oh what, you thought you were the only ones with nuclear capability? Ooops!

Re:Does the EU/China really think... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7006040)

Hrm, maybe because it'd be seen as an act of war, and at least three of the contributing countries have enough operational nuclear warheads to turn America into a small and insignificant pile of radioactive dust?

Yeah because those countries feel their way of life is disposable over a satellite. We, the United States, for better or worse have more than enough nuclear warheads to destroy the entire earth twice over.

And then there is conventional military force. The US spends more on military defense (and now offense, apparently) than the rest of the earth combined.

And perhaps, we should also look at the behaviour of the US compared to that of Europe. Which would be more likely to make a rash military action, and which would be more likely to fret and wring their hands and "have talks."

Re:Does the EU/China really think... (2, Insightful)

Uerige (206572) | more than 10 years ago | (#7006019)

Yes, yes. And what is going to stop the rest of the world from taking down gps satellites in that case?

Meanwhile (3, Funny)

heironymouscoward (683461) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005795)

Reuters reports that a huge queue of Chinese wannabe astronauts are forming following rumours that in outer space, nobody can watch you surf.

The immorality of Open Source (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7005810)

Having read the article thoroughly, this startling news shows the flaws in the brewing Open Source Zeitgeist that is gripping the software community. Have you considered that providing software for free to countries such as China is essentially tacit support for oppressive regimes?

Far-fetched? Think about it: With MySQL, the People's Army will now be able to do multiple queries on their tables of democratic activists in Olog(n) time instead of lengthy searches in card catalogs. The bureaucratic overhead previously allowed activists enough time to flee the country. How about building cheap firewalls so the people can't get the unbiased reporting that CNN provides? Or using Apache to publish lists of Falun Gong people to their police forces instantly? I doubt that never crossed your minds when you were coding away in your parents' basements. Consider putting that little thought in your mental resolv.conf file.

If that does not concern you ( which it probably doesn't, since the slashdot.org paradigm is publishing articles about how not to pay for things ), consider something else. When China eventually goes to war with Taiwan, we want to be able turn their command and control facilities into the computing equivalent of a train-wreck. One of the advantages of Windows never mentioned in the article is the ability of Microsoft to remotely deactivate Windows XP in the case of a national emergency. Thanks to GNU/Lunix, Taiwan will be on a collision course with the mainland in the near future.

Which throws into question Mr. Stallman's motives. A known proponent of socialism, the Chinese government and RMS are natural allies. Could it be a back door to Stallman's dream of an uber-Socialist United States? We may never know for sure. Next time you consider contributing to an open source project, ask yourself this question: don't you want to make sure your work isn't used for nefarious purposes? Will you risk having blood on your hands?

Re:The immorality of Open Source (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7005888)

Well if you program for MS, then your code will definitely be used for nefarious purposes.

When you speak of morals, are these your morals or mine, or the guy down the street.

WOW! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7005831)

I havent seen one post about poverty in China yet. Surprising how standards are held differently for China and India..
may be it was because everyone is scared of china esp after the spy plane incident.

Re:WOW! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7005908)

Fsck this moderation. What I said was so true. you guys are just cracker chicken.

Cooperation isn't always positive... (5, Interesting)

arashiakari (633150) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005837)

...when you're cooperating with the enemy.

I mean, China's interests are not the world's interests. History folks: read it.

I don't know how to say this withought sounding paranoid, but just because you have a science co-op doesn't mean everyone is interested in the same thing. China is more than gung ho about this project because EVERY space launch technology is dual-use for military application. I think it is a little cavalier (that's "dangerous" for you folks in high school) to do anything that puts more power in the hands of anti-freedom communists. Look at what they are doing to democratic Taiwan if you want to see what they would do to Europe or the U.S.A. if they had the ability.

You're talking about a nation that has a reverse-firewall on the entire CONTINENT... to keep people from being "infected" by rogue ideas like ownership, equality, and government existing through the sanction of the governed. You're talking about a nation that controls the news media with an iron fist to keep people from knowing when bad things happen as a result of communism. China is the closest thing to 1984 on the planet right now. Do we really want to share technology with them?

Re:Cooperation isn't always positive... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7005929)

...to keep people from being "infected" by rogue ideas like ownership, equality...

Communism is, at its core, about equality. Ownership on the other hand (the basis of capitalism) guarentees people are not equal.. so its one or the other.. choose.

China isn't trying to stifle capitalism. They are trying to build an advanced culture (Science based like star trek) as opposed to the primitive cultures of the past (leprichans, Zeus, santa claus, GOD, etc....). It just so happens capitalism as practiced in the states, dominted by the right wing bible thumping christian zealots get in the way.

Re:Cooperation isn't always positive... (3, Insightful)

sapone (152094) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005932)

Lack of cooperation is what makes other people enemys instead of friendy...

I really think that a second global civilian navigation satellite system created by a lot of European nation and "anti-freedom communists" is a lot better than a single one that is controlled by the constantly warring military of a single "anti-freedom imperialist" nation.

Mars rouge (0, Offtopic)

Doc Ruby (173196) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005882)

Joke all you want about "Garireo", it looks like we'll need to speak French and read Chinese to travel to the Mars colony - how's your accent? Too bad we'll be working off our $10T debt by policing the mess down here with our 21C Army of One.

Great news (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7005911)


I have worked on the Galileo project on a technical level and it really does need some new impetus, and some new capital injection, ESA is being quite slow at coming up with the funding at the correct time (even though its been signed off at a political level). It truely is a project of massive scale, and involves alot of interfacing between European space companies.

Another benefit of this is there isn't as big a rush to launch the first testbed satellite that was going to block/reserve the frequency blocks that Galileo is going to use for fear the Chinese will get their first.

I wonder how the US views this move, considering they are already unhappy with the Galileo implications in the first place. Especially with Chinas ICBM ambitions.

Off topic (-1, Offtopic)

amightywind (691887) | more than 10 years ago | (#7005913)

Dear Slashdot,

Don't you think it is ironic that I have to scroll through Microsoft adds to read anti-Microsoft rants on your comments page. Ah capitalism.

"second superpower" (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7005976)

Gee, what a surprise. Mikey wants China to be a world power so they can crush religions around the world. When is Taco going to get a fucking clue and realize what a wanker Mikey is?
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