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PHP Usage in the Enterprise

michael posted about 11 years ago | from the snorting-php dept.

PHP 325

acostin writes "Some open survey results were published about PHP usage in the enterprise on the InterAKT site. An alternative survey on the PHP open source mouvement can be found on Zend site. See how we've evaluated the PHP market size($$$), what people think about PHP as an alternative to Java and .NET, and what should be done in order to have your large clients adopt open source solutions."

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The code is the data! (0)

Dancin_Santa (265275) | about 11 years ago | (#7010476)

That's worked so well in the past...

Re:The code is the data! (5, Insightful)

mackstann (586043) | about 11 years ago | (#7010558)


To write clean, well structured PHP, you really need to do some good design, use OOP, seperate content/formatting/logic/etc, and basically at that point, you're left with a half-ass OOP implementation, annoying pass by value, messy syntax, no exception handling, etc.

PHP was meant for making relatively minor webpage hacks, and it shows. This still remains PHP's strong point; building enterprise applications (that are designed well) does NOT.

Here's my list of bitches about PHP:

* No class attributes, only instance attributes

* No namespaces (and they were dropped from PHP 5). include()/require()'ing a file just dumps its namespace into the big happy global namespace, and it's a freaking nightmare.

* OOP sucks. You have to litter &'s everywhere to get references, and lots of other problems that I'll refrain from typing out. Ok here's one -- how do you pass an instance method for use as a callback? Something like array($object, "method_name_in_a_string"). Good god.

* No exception handling. Want to "handle" an error? Toss a @ in front of it, then you'll never see it. How helpful.

* Type handling is a nightmare, sure, they make it real easy for the newbies to use numbers-in-strings as numbers, but when you're not a newbie, you begin to run into issues where it's expecting you to be stupid and as a result ends up being stupid itself, and causing you to write disgusting checks just to make sure things are sane.

And that's the root of the whole issue, I think. Things that bend over backwards to cater to newbies end up doing a shitty job for people who have a clue.

Also, if anyone knows of any projects (with source available) written in PHP that are designed well, I would be interested to hear of them. I looked at a tiny bit of PHPMyAdmin's code just for kicks and was horrified. But that's not a valid judgement by any means. Again, I'm just interested to see if there are any out there (and have a look at them).

And a last thing, I might be biased by knowing Python (but I knew PHP first!). Python tends to flow very naturally for me, and even big complex things just end up being big and complex, instead of big and complex and A COMPLETE FREAKING NIGHTMARE like big things in PHP tend to wind up (for me).

Go Python! Death to PHP!

Re:The code is the data! (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#7010596)

No class attributes, only instance attributes

Not a big deal. Just constants or globals that are prefixed with the class name (seriously, it works fine in practice).

No namespaces (and they were dropped from PHP 5).

See above.

OOP sucks.

Yes, parts of PHP do stink, I'd love to never see a "&" again, though I think I've mostly figured it out. Also inheritance and constructors is a bit ugly. That will be fixed in PHP5.

No exception handling.

This is a big problem. Actually the only "real" problem on your list, imo. What I usually do is just die() right then and there.

Type handling is a nightmare, sure, they make it real easy for the newbies to use numbers-in-strings as numbers, but when you're not a newbie, you begin to run into issues where it's expecting you to be stupid and as a result ends up being stupid itself, and causing you to write disgusting checks just to make sure things are sane.

I actually like the way it converts strings and numbers. Just be sure not to test them as booleans and you won't run into too many problems. Since your data is usually coming from outside, you better have pages of disgusting checks to begin with!

Also, if anyone knows of any projects (with source available) written in PHP that are designed well, I would be interested to hear of them.

PEAR ( is a nice library for PHP. I enjoyed looking through the source code for inspiration. Sure, it's not Python (or Ruby, my fav) but it's readable and uses good practices for php.

Also, there is a site with patterns in PHP, google for it.

Also also, there is PHPUnit framework for unit testing. Not exactly JUnit (no exception handling!!) but I have been using it with "test-first" development, and churning out very nice PHP code.

I used to hate PHP because of the lax security, but I think it has a lot of potential as a "lite" language that can handle big projects. My boss loves it because he understands it, I like it because of the objects.

Re:The code is the data! (1)

NightSpots (682462) | about 11 years ago | (#7010618)

What I usually do is just die() right then and there.

die()'ing is nice, if what you want is to stop execution.

die()'ing is worthless, however, if what you want is to catch errors and correct them.

Imaging a banking transaction.
Step 1) Receive a transaction request.
Step 2) Debit the money from the source account.
Step 3) Insert the money into the destination account.
Step 4) Tell the source that the money was taken.
Step 5) Tell the destination that the money was received.

What happens if an error occurs in step 3? The money has been taken out, but now you're going to die? That doesn't do anyone any good.

Exceptions are required for enterprise quality applications. Until PHP gets exceptions, it will remain a toy scripting language great for rapidly developed websites and horrible for mission critical applications.

Re:The code is the data! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#7010646)

yow, I hope you are using transactions in your system, and not relying on exception handling in the first place... what if there's a power failure during step 3? Server explodes?

Re:The code is the data! (1)

AJWM (19027) | about 11 years ago | (#7010664)

Until PHP gets exceptions, it will remain a toy scripting language great for rapidly developed websites and horrible for mission critical applications.

And what's wrong with that? Why does a language that's good for one thing have to evolve into some language that suits it (probably badly) to a whole 'nother level of application -- and in the process makes it worse for what it was originally good at. PHP is great for rapid prototyping, doing lightweight web apps and scripting. If you need something heavier duty -- like your banking example -- go with J2EE, not some UberPHP.

Re:The code is the data! (3, Insightful)

mackstann (586043) | about 11 years ago | (#7010670)

The problem is that people *do* use it for these heavy duty tasks. "PHP Usage in the Enterprise"...

It's like a lot of things: not bad, but grossly misused. Flash is not a bad technology. PDFs are not a bad technology. Javascript is not a bad technology. The problem is that people use them for all kinds of stuff that they shouldn't, and it winds up working like crap and annoying people.

Re:The code is the data! (1)

AJWM (19027) | about 11 years ago | (#7010693)

Well, that's true enough. But it's the fault of incompetent developers (maybe they only know one language -- if your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail) rather than the technology.

Re:The code is the data! (1)

mackstann (586043) | about 11 years ago | (#7010641)

(No class attributes, only instance attributes)

Not a big deal. Just constants or globals that are prefixed with the class name (seriously, it works fine in practice).

I think that's a good point. These things do *work*, and it's what the PHP standard library does (and PEAR AFAIK), but honestly, it just feels way too nasty for me. I think I just want PHP to be Python, and anything short of that won't be good enough for me. Honestly, I *personally* don't even give a crap about PHP. It's just that I'm stuck with it at work, which is a real bummer. Also inheritance and constructors is a bit ugly. That will be fixed in PHP5.

Ironically, neither of those have caused me any real trouble. :)

I actually like the way it converts strings and numbers. Just be sure not to test them as booleans and you won't run into too many problems. Since your data is usually coming from outside, you better have pages of disgusting checks to begin with!

But I'm talking about stuff coming from internally. Question: How do you check if a string contains an integer? is_numeric() only checks for float *or* int. is_int() actually checks the type. You have to do if(is_numeric($foo) && (int)$foo == (float)$foo). Maybe I missed something on that one. It all feels convoluted to me, but I guess that's personal preference. I like things being somewhat strict.

PEAR ( is a nice library for PHP. I enjoyed looking through the source code for inspiration. Sure, it's not Python (or Ruby, my fav) but it's readable and uses good practices for php.

I really need to get around to looking at PEAR. I looked through the docs, and nothing there seemed all that appealing to me, but I'm sure there has to be *something* I can gain from it.

Also, there is a site with patterns in PHP, google for it.

phppatterns.(net?), yes, I have seen it before, actually I have read a couple interesting things there. Probably the best PHP site around, it's actually something other than mysql+php or "how to make an image gallery", etc.

I used to hate PHP because of the lax security, but I think it has a lot of potential as a "lite" language that can handle big projects. My boss loves it because he understands it, I like it because of the objects.

I think it makes a good "lite" language too. Great for handling html and whatnot. It's just when you want to write the whole *application* in PHP, that I feel it falls short.

Re:The code is the data! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#7010667)

Question: How do you check if a string contains an integer?

if (preg_match('/^\d+$/', $str)) { .. }

Okay, it's Perlish but if you put it in a global function str_is_int() nobody is the wiser!

Re:The code is the data! (1)

mackstann (586043) | about 11 years ago | (#7010696)

I generally try to avoid using regexps when not needed. Even when reading my own code, I have to stop and examine *exactly* what each regexp does. Many times there is a function(s) that does what I want, that has a sane name, and has less overhead.

The main point was, Why, if is_numeric() checks the contents of a string, does is_int() check for the actual type? It just seems completely braindead to me.

Re:The code is the data! (1)

waynetv (112053) | about 11 years ago | (#7010602)

Also, if anyone knows of any projects (with source available) written in PHP that are designed well, I would be interested to hear of them.

Check out Binarycloud []

I looked at a tiny bit of PHPMyAdmin's code just for kicks and was horrified. But that's not a valid judgement by any means.

Most open source code (be it C or PHP) is absolutely terrible. PHPMyAdmin is not a good example of well designed PHP code.

Many of your complaints about PHP have been corrected in PHP5 -- you might be interested in checking it out.

Re:The code is the data! (1)

mackstann (586043) | about 11 years ago | (#7010658)

Most open source code (be it C or PHP) is absolutely terrible.

It's a bummer, too. I think it's fun and challenging to write something that not only works well, but is coded *perfectly*. Of course, perfect never happens, but it's a constant process of trying to get there. :)

Many of your complaints about PHP have been corrected in PHP5 -- you might be interested in checking it out.

Yep, I definitely have been eyeing it, however, by the time it is in widespread use, I hope dearly that I will not be doing PHP anymore. As mentioned, I would not even deal with PHP if it weren't for work. Kinda something I have to deal with right now, so I end up lashing out like this whenever I get a chance. :)

Re:The code is the data! (5, Interesting)

saden1 (581102) | about 11 years ago | (#7010743)

I used to think highly of PHP when I was using it for small tasks (creating a blog page and a half ass forum) but man oh man does it suck for doing big projects. In the enterprise marked, there really only one player I'd look to and that is Java. Everything else is really irrelevant. Yes Java has a steep learning curve but once you get ahead of the curve you are never going back to whatever you were using. Java + Eclipse is a deadly combination.

Re:The code is the data! (1)

Malcontent (40834) | about 11 years ago | (#7010629)

Php 5 addresses a lot of your concerns although not all of them.

"Also, if anyone knows of any projects (with source available) written in PHP that are designed well, I would be interested to hear of them."


Re:The code is the data! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#7010703)

Fuck you! Python is stupid as shit. Die Python! Use Smarty with PHP and it rocks! None of that stupid Python white space indentation shit or pseudo OOP bullshit.

IMPORTANT! The Linux Gay Conspiracy (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#7010573)

Update: "Fist Sport" explained. (05/17/01)


Paid for advertisement from the Michael Sims [] is a Treacherous Cunt society


Tyrants [] .


It has come to my attention that the entire Linux community is a hotbed of so called 'alternative sexuality,' which includes anything from hedonistic orgies to homosexuality to pedophilia.

What better way of demonstrating this than by looking at the hidden messages contained within the names of some of Linux's most outspoken advocates:

Linus Torvalds [] is an anagram of SLIT ANUS OR VD 'L,' clearly referring to himself by the first initial.

Richard M. Stallman [] , spokespervert for the Gaysex is Not Unusual 'movement' is an anagram of MANS CRAM THRILL AD.

Alan Cox [] is barely an anagram of ANAL COX which is just so filthy and unchristian it unnerves me.

I'm sure that Eric S. Raymond, composer of the satanic homosexual [] propaganda diatribe The Cathedral and the Bizarre, [Buy At Amazon [] ] is probably an anagram of something queer, but we don't need to look that far as we know he's always shoving a gun up some poor little boy's rectum. Update: Eric S. Raymond is actually an anagram for SECONDARY RIM and CORD IN MY ARSE. It just goes to show you that he is indeed queer.

Update the Second: It is also documented that Evil Sicko Gaymond is responsible for a nauseating piece of code called Fetchmail [] , which is obviously sinister sodomite slang for "Felch Male" - a disgusting practise. For those not in the know, "felching" is the act performed by two perverts wherein one sucks their own post-coital ejaculate out of the other's rectum. In fact, it appears that the dirty Linux faggots set out to undermine the good Republican institution of e-mail, turning it into "e-male."

As far as Richard "(cock)Master" Stallman goes, that filthy fudge-packer was actually quoted [] on leftist commie propaganda site as saying the following:

RMS: "I've been resistant to the pressure to conform in any circumstance," he says. "It's about being able to question conventional wisdom," he asserts. "I believe in love, but not monogamy," he says plainly.

And this isn't a made up troll bullshit either! He actually stated this tripe, which makes it obvious that he is trying to politely say that he's a flaming homo [] slut [] !

Speaking about "flaming," who better to point out as a filthy chutney ferret than Slashdot's very own self-confessed pederast Jon Katz. Although an obvious deviant anagram cannot be found from his name, he has already confessed, nay boasted of the homosexual [] perversion of corrupting the innocence of young children [] . To quote from the article linked:

"I've got a rare kidney disease,' I told her. 'I have to go to the bathroom a lot. You can come with me if you want, but it takes a while. Is that okay with you? Do you want a note from my doctor?'

Is this why you were touching your penis [] in the cinema, Jon? And letting the other boys touch it too?

We should also point out that Jon Katz refers to himself as "Slashdot's resident Gasbag." Is there any more doubt? For those fortunate few who aren't aware of the list of homosexual [] terminology found inside the Linux "Sauce Code," a "Gasbag" is a pervert who gains sexual gratification from having a thin straw inserted into his urethra (or to use the common parlance, "piss-pipe"), then his homosexual [] lover blows firmly down the straw to inflate his scrotum. This is, of course, when he's not busy violating the dignity and copyright of posters to Slashdot by gathering together their postings and publishing them en masse to further his twisted and manipulative journalistic agenda.

Sick, disgusting antichristian perverts, the lot of them.

In addition, many of the Linux distributions (a 'distribution' is the most common way to spread the faggots' wares) are run by faggot groups. The Slackware [] distro is named after the Slack-wear fags wear to allow easy access to the anus for sexual purposes. Furthermore, Slackware is a close anagram of CLAW ARSE, a reference to the homosexual [] practise of anal fisting. The Mandrake [] product is run by a group of French faggot satanists, and is named after the faggot nickname for the vibrator. It was also chosen because it is an anagram for DARK AMEN and RAM NAKED, which is what they do.

Another "distro," (abbrieviated as such because it sounds a bit like "Disco," which is where homosexuals [] preyed on young boys in the 1970s), is Debian [] , an anagram of IN A BED, which could be considered innocent enough (after all, a bed is both where we sleep and pray), until we realise what other names Debian uses to describe their foul wares. "Woody" is obvious enough, being a term for the erect male penis [] , glistening with pre-cum. But far sicker is the phrase "Frozen Potato" that they use. This filthy term, again found in the secret homosexual [] "Sauce Code," refers to the solo homosexual [] practice of defecating into a clear polythene bag, shaping the turd into a crude approximation of the male phallus, then leaving it in the freezer overnight until it becomes solid. The practitioner then proceeds to push the frozen 'potato' up his own rectum, squeezing it in and out until his tight young balls erupt in a screaming orgasm.

And Red Hat [] is secret homo [] slang for the tip of a penis [] that is soaked in blood from a freshly violated underage ringpiece.

The fags have even invented special tools to aid their faggotry! For example, the "supermount" tool was devised to allow deeper penetration, which is good for fags because it gives more pressure on the prostate gland. "Automount" is used, on the other hand, because Linux users are all fat and gay, and need to mount each other [] automatically.

The depths of their depravity can be seen in their use of "mount points." These are, plainly speaking, the different points of penetration. The main one is obviously /anus, but there are others. Militant fags even say "There is no /opt mount point" because for these dirty perverts faggotry is not optional but a way of life.

More evidence is in the fact that Linux users say how much they love 'man', even going so far as to say that all new Linux users (who are in fact just innocent heterosexuals indoctrinated by the gay propaganda) should try out 'man'. In no other system do users boast of their frequent recourse to a man.

Other areas of the system also show Linux's inherit gayness. For example, people are often told of the "FAQ," but how many innocent heterosexual Windows [] users know what this actually means. The answer is shocking: Faggot Anal Quest: the voyage of discovery for newly converted fags!

Some more proof of Linux's inherent gayness has come to my attention. Readers of Slashdot [] , a prominent Linux evangelism site, often compete to get the "First Post" on a new story. While this may at first seem like harmless inanity, "first post" is actually an anagram for the much more sinister FIST SPORT, obviously referring to the disgusting homosexual practice of "fisting", whereby one man forces first his clenched fist then the rest of his queer arm up into the lower intestine of another man. How any proper Christian person could find pleasure in this practice is abhorrent.

Also on Slashdot, half of the postings to these articles begin with, in big capital letters, I ANAL, which requires no explanation, and is so blatantly filthy it boggles the mind.

Even the title "Slashdot [] " originally referred to a homosexual [] practice. Slashdot [] of course refers to the popular gay practice of blood-letting. The Slashbots, of course are those super-zealous hemosexuals [] who take this perversion to its extreme by ripping open their anuses, as seen on the site most popular with Slashdot users, the depraved work of Satan, [] .

The editors of Slashdot [] also have homosexual [] names: "Hemos" is obvious in itself, being one vowel away from "Homos." But even more sickening is "Commander Taco" which sounds a bit like "Commode in Taco," filthy gay slang for a pair of spreadeagled buttocks that are caked with excrement [] . (The best form of lubrication, they insist.) Sometimes, these "Taco Commodes" have special "Salsa Sauce" (blood from a ruptured rectum) and "Cheese" (rancid flakes of penis [] discharge) toppings. And to make it even worse, Slashdot [] runs on Apache!

The Apache [] server, whose use among fags is as prevalent as AIDS, is named after homosexual [] activity -- as everyone knows, popular faggot band, The Village People [] , featured an Apache Indian, and it is for him that this gay program is named.

And that's not forgetting the use of patches in the Linux fag world -- patches are used to make the anus accessible for repeated anal sex even after its rupture by a session of fisting.

To summarise: Linux is gay. "Slash - Dot" is the graphical description of the space between a young boy's scrotum and anus. And BeOS [] is for hermaphrodites and disabled "stumpers."


What worries me is how much you know about what gay people do. I'm scared I actually read this whole thing. I think this post is a good example of the negative effects of Internet usage on people. This person obviously has no social life anymore and had to result to writing something as stupid as this. And actually take the time to do it too. Although... I think it was satire.. blah.. it's early. - Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

Well, the only reason I know all about this is because I had the misfortune to read the Linux "Sauce code" once. Although publicised as the computer code needed to get Linux up and running on a computer (and haven't you always been worried about the phrase "Monolithic Kernel"?), this foul document is actually a detailed and graphic description of every conceivable degrading perversion known to the human race, as well as a few of the major animal species. It has shocked and disturbed me, to the point of needing to shock and disturb the common man to warn them of the impending homo [] -calypse which threatens to engulf our planet.

You must work for the government. Trying to post the most obscene stuff in hopes that slashdot won't be able to continue or something, due to legal woes. If i ever see your ugly face, i'm going to stick my fireplace poker up your ass, after it's nice and hot, to weld shut that nasty gaping hole of yours. - Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

Doesn't it give you a hard-on to imagine your thick strong poker ramming it's way up my most sacred of sphincters? You're beyond help, my friend, as the only thing you can imagine is the foul penetrative violation of another man. Are you sure you're not Eric Raymond? The government, being populated by limp-wristed liberals, could never stem the sickening tide of homosexual [] child molesting Linux advocacy. Hell, they've given NAMBLA [] free reign for years!

you really should post this logged in. i wish i could remember jebus's password, cuz i'd give it to you. - mighty jebus [] , Slashdot

Thank you for your kind words of support. However, this document shall only ever be posted anonymously. This is because the "Open Sauce" movement is a sham, proposing homoerotic cults of hero worshipping in the name of freedom. I speak for the common man. For any man who prefers the warm, enveloping velvet folds of a woman's vagina [] to the tight puckered ringpiece of a child. These men, being common, decent folk, don't have a say in the political hypocrisy that is Slashdot culture. I am the unknown liberator [] .

ROLF LAMO i hate linux FAGGOTS - Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

We shouldn't hate them, we should pity them for the misguided fools they are... Fanatical Linux zeal-outs need to be herded into camps for re-education and subsequent rehabilitation into normal heterosexual society. This re-education shall be achieved by forcing them to watch repeats of Baywatch until the very mention of Pamela Anderson [] causes them to fill their pants with healthy heterosexual jism [] .

Actually, that's not at all how scrotal inflation works. I understand it involves injecting sterile saline solution into the scrotum. I've never tried this, but you can read how to do it safely [] in case you're interested.
(Before you moderate this down, ask yourself honestly - who are the real crazies - people who do scrotal inflation, or people who pay $1000+ for a game console?) - double_h [] , Slashdot

Well, it just goes to show that even the holy Linux "sauce code" is riddled with bugs that need fixing. (The irony of Jon Katz not even being able to inflate his scrotum correctly has not been lost on me.) The Linux pervert elite already acknowledge this, with their queer slogan: "Given enough arms, all rectums are shallow." And anyway, the PS2 [] sucks major cock and isn't worth the money. Intellivision forever!

dude did u used to post on msnbc's nt bulletin board now that u are doing anti-gay posts u also need to start in with anti-black stuff too c u in church - Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

For one thing, whilst Linux is a cavalcade of queer propaganda masquerading as the future of computing, NT [] is used by people who think nothing better of encasing their genitals in quick setting plaster then going to see a really dirty porno film, enjoying the restriction enforced onto them. Remember, a wasted arousal is a sin in the eyes of the Catholic church [] . Clearly, the only god-fearing Christian operating system in existence is CP/M -- The Christian Program Monitor. All computer users should immediately ask their local pastor to install this fine OS onto their systems. It is the only route to salvation.

Secondly, this message is for every man. Computers know no colour. Not only that, but one of the finest websites in the world is maintained by A Black Man [] . Now fuck off you racist donkey felcher.

And don't forget that slashdot was written in Perl, which is just too close to "Pearl Necklace" for comfort.... oh wait; that's something all you heterosexuals do.... I can't help but wonder how much faster the trolls could do First-Posts on this site if it were redone in PHP... I could hand-type dynamic HTML pages faster than Perl can do them. - phee [] , Slashdot

Although there is nothing unholy about the fine heterosexual act of ejaculating between a woman's breasts, squirting one's load up towards her neck and chin area, it should be noted that Perl [] (standing for Pansies Entering Rectums Locally) is also close to "Pearl Monocle", "Pearl Nosering", and the ubiquitous "Pearl Enema".

One scary thing about Perl [] is that it contains hidden homosexual [] messages. Take the following code: LWP::Simple -- It looks innocuous enough, doesn't it? But look at the line closely: There are two colons next to each other! As Larry "Balls to the" Wall would openly admit in the Perl Documentation [] , Perl was designed from the ground up to indoctrinate it's programmers into performing unnatural sexual acts -- having two colons so closely together is clearly a reference to the perverse sickening act of "colon kissing," whereby two homosexual [] queers spread their buttocks wide, pressing their filthy torn sphincters together. They then share small round objects like marbles or golfballs by passing them from one rectum to another using muscle contraction alone. This is also referred to in programming 'circles' as "Parameter Passing".

And PHP [] stands for Perverted Homosexual Penetration. Didn't you know?

Thank you for your valuable input on this. I am sure you will be never forgotten. BTW: Did I mention that this could be useful in terraforming Mars? Mars rulaa. - Eimernase [] , Slashdot

Well, I don't know about terraforming Mars, but I DO know that homosexual [] Linux Advocates have been probing Uranus for years.

That's inspiring. Keep up the good work, AC. May God in his wisdom grant you the strength to bring the plain honest truth to this community, and make it pure again. Yours, Cerberus. - Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

*sniff* That brings a tear to my eye. Thank you once more for your kind support. I have taken faith in the knowledge that I am doing the Good Lord [] 's work, but it is encouraging to know that I am helping out the common man here.

However, I should be cautious about revealing your name 'Cerberus' on such a filthy den of depravity as Slashdot. It is a well known fact that the 'Kerberos' documentation from Microsoft is a detailed manual describing, in intimate, exacting detail, how to sexually penetrate a variety of unwilling canine animals; be they domesticated, wild, or mythical. Slashdot posters have taken great pleasure in illegally spreading this documentation far and wide, treating it as an "extension" to the Linux "Sauce Code," for the sake of "interoperability." (The slang term they use for non-consensual intercourse - their favourite kind.)

In fact, sick twisted Linux deviants are known to have LAN parties, (Love of Anal Naughtiness, needless to say.), wherein they entice a stray dog, known as the "Samba Mount," into their homes. Up to four of these filth-sodden blasphemers against nature take turns to plunge their erect, throbbing, uncircumcised members, conkers-deep, into the rectum, mouth, and other fleshy orifices of the poor animal. Eventually, the "Samba Mount" collapses due to "overload," and needs to be "rebooted." (i.e., kicked out into the street, and left to fend for itself.) Many Linux users boast about their "uptime" in such situations.

Inspiring stuff! If only all trolls were this quality! - Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

If only indeed. You can help our brave cause by moderating this message up as often as possible. I recommend +1, Underrated, as that will protect your precious Karma in Metamoderation [] . Only then can we break through the glass ceiling of Homosexual Slashdot Culture. Is it any wonder that the new version of Slashcode has been christened "Bender"???

If we can get just one of these postings up to at least '+1,' then it will be archived forever! Others will learn of our struggle, and join with us in our battle for freedom!

It's pathetic you've spent so much time writing this. - Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

I am compelled to document the foulness and carnal depravity [] that is Linux, in order that we may prepare ourselves for the great holy war that is to follow. It is my solemn duty to peel back the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wire brush of enlightenment.

As with any great open-source project, you need someone asking this question, so I'll do it. When the hell is version 2.0 going to be ready?!?! - Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

I could make an arrogant, childish comment along the lines of "Every time someone asks for 2.0, I won't release it for another 24 hours," but the truth of the matter is that I'm quite nervous of releasing a "number two," as I can guarantee some filthy shit-slurping Linux pervert would want to suck it straight out of my anus before I've even had chance to wipe.

I desperately want to suck your monolithic kernel, you sexy hunk, you. - Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

I sincerely hope you're Natalie Portman [] .

Dude, nothing on slashdot larger than 3 paragraphs is worth reading. Try to distill the message, whatever it was, and maybe I'll read it. As it is, I have to much open source software to write to waste even 10 seconds of precious time. 10 seconds is all its gonna take M$ to whoop Linux's ass. Vigilence is the price of Free (as in libre -- from the fine, frou frou French language) Software. Hack on fellow geeks, and remember: Friday is Bouillabaisse day except for heathens who do not believe that Jesus died for their sins. Those godless, oil drench, bearded sexist clowns can pull grits from their pantaloons (another fine, fine French word) and eat that. Anyway, try to keep your message focused and concise. For concision is the soul of derision. Way. - Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

What the fuck?

I've read your gay conspiracy post version 1.3.0 and I must say I'm impressed. In particular, I appreciate how you have managed to squeeze in a healthy dose of the latent homosexuality you gay-bashing homos [] tend to be full of. Thank you again. - Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

Well bugger me!

ooooh honey. how insecure are you!!! wann a little massage from deare bruci. love you - Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

Fuck right off!

IMPORTANT: This message needs to be heard (Not HURD [] , which is an acronym for Huge Unclean Rectal Dilator) across the whole community, so it has been released into the Public Domain [] . You know, that licence that we all had before those homoerotic crypto-fascists came out with the GPL [] (Gay Penetration License, according to [] ) that is no more than an excuse to see who's got the biggest feces-encrusted [] cock. I would have put this up on Freshmeat [] , but that name is KNOWN to be a euphemism for the tight rump of a young boy.

Come to think of it, the whole concept of "Source Control" unnerves me, because it sounds a bit like "Sauce Control," which is a description of the homosexual [] practice of holding the base of the cock shaft tightly upon the point of ejaculation, thus causing a build up of semenal fluid that is only released upon entry into an incision made into the base of the receiver's scrotum. And "Open Sauce" is the act of ejaculating into another mans face or perhaps a biscuit to be shared later. Obviously, "Closed Sauce" is the only Christian thing to do, as evidenced by the fact that it is what Cathedrals are all about.

Contributors: (although not to the eternal game of "soggy biscuit" that open "sauce" development has become) Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, phee, Anonymous Coward, mighty jebus, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, double_h, Anonymous Coward, Eimernase, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, The WIPO Troll, FreeWIPO, Bring BackATV. Further contributions are welcome.

Current changes: This version is based on the all-too-rare backup copy sent to FreeWIPO [] by 'Bring BackATV' as plain text. Re-reformatted everything, added all links back in (that we could match from the previous version), many new ones (Slashbot bait links). Even more spelling fixed. Additional stuff done in preparation for the future. Addition of F.I.R.S.T.P.O.S.T. for the sake of decent folk everywhere!

Previous changes: Yet more changes added. Spelling fixed. Feedback added. Explanation of 'distro' system. 'Mount Point' syntax described. More filth regarding 'man' and Slashdot. Yet more fucking spelling fixed. 'Fetchmail' uncovered further. More Slashbot baiting. Apache exposed. Distribution licence at foot of document.

ANUX -- A full Linux distribution... Up your ass!

Jeez, another "My Dad can beat up Your Dad war" (0, Troll)

gentoo_moo (679483) | about 11 years ago | (#7010597)

PHP! No ASP! No PHP... No ASP... No! PHP On NCC1701A but NCC1701D Definately ran .NET! And Warf can't code without trying to use the keyboard as a weapon. ;)

Re:Jeez, another "My Dad can beat up Your Dad war" (0, Troll)

Vokbain (657712) | about 11 years ago | (#7010636)

What kind of geek are you? You spelled "Worf" wrong!

Re:Jeez, another "My Dad can beat up Your Dad war" (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#7010742)

All due to the space-time-spelling warp that interferred with the author's tpynig.

fp (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#7010479)


Keyboards! Keyboards! Keyboards! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#7010487)

I love this review (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#7010528)

I purchased this keyboard on a whim and man was it the best million I've ever spent. THIS KEYBOARD CURES CANCER. It has a button on it that summons Jesus to come and talk to you. WARNING: Don't play BF1942 with Jesus; has the walk-on-water hack. He can also fly and see through walls. This Keyboard changes the oil in your car and makes a killer rump roast. It can also potty train your dog and your kids while serving up SoftServe ice cream (vanilla only as of this writing).

Hack-away (3, Funny)

mondainx (34102) | about 11 years ago | (#7010490)

For those of you that hate M$ and dont want to learn Java, its perfect.

Re:Hack-away (1)

rice_web (604109) | about 11 years ago | (#7010514)

None of that complex object-oriented stuff, and best of all: you don't have to pay!

Stupid bastards... they give it away.

Re:Hack-away (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#7010522)

how is this funny? i'd say "+1 The Truth" if anything

Re:Hack-away (5, Insightful)

jacksonyee (590218) | about 11 years ago | (#7010548)

I know that you're somewhat joking, but I would have liked the market share questions from InterAKT to have included not just .NET, J2EE, or ColdFusion, but have also included other languages like Perl and Python (although Python is indeed the base language for Zope). There are still a very large amount of websites built in Perl these days, with Slashdot being one of the most famous. Zend's survey does a bit more to explore the languages that programmers "are familiar with," but does little to see how the competition for PHP is doing.

PHP's great to use for me because it's simple, powerful, and readily available in cheap hosting environments. If Zope, ColdFusion, or J2EE had more availability or less cost, then I would try those as well, but there's something to be said for being able to sign up for a $9/month account and downloading Apache, PHP, and MySQL all without paying for anything other than bandwidth costs. You still can't really compare PHP to the enterprise level of .NET or JSP at this point though, since many features like persistent objects in shared memory really can't be done well in PHP, and I haven't heard anything else about PHP 5 other than further enhancements to the objects and reference systems. PHP-Accelerator gives a great boost to the speed, but I'd really like to see native compilation built into the distribution rather than downloaded separatedly.

All in all though, PHP's a great language for quick development of small to medium sized websites. As the old caveat reads though, use the right tool for the job.

Re:Hack-away (2, Informative)

acostin (229653) | about 11 years ago | (#7010690)

I know that you're somewhat joking, but I would have liked the market share questions from InterAKT to have included not just .NET, J2EE, or ColdFusion, but have also included other languages like Perl and Python (although Python is indeed the base language for Zope).

We have indeed included comparision with Perl and Python (Zope) here []
It's in the "Why you've lost" section of the survey, as seen through the eyes of the PHP developer :)

Re:Hack-away (1, Interesting)

deli_llama (584790) | about 11 years ago | (#7010619)

When I was in school, in my Enterprise Systems class we had to design (as the final project) a true 3-tiered enterprise web application using Java and J-Boss -- a daunting task to complete in 3 weeks. So my group did the only sensible thing and re-associated the .jsp extension with the PHP processor and wrote the whole thing using php instead...and told no one.

We didn't take any shortcuts at all: we preserved a complete and separate true 3-tiered archetecture with all the fixins and everything. In fact, adding site-wide RSS output capability only took about 15 minutes to implement. We could swap in and out components with no effort at all.

The best part was that not only did we pull it off, but we were the only group to finish (Everyone else was dealing with the horrors of sluggish development that EJB invariably brings with it. Most were about 15% done.), but we were the only group to ever get full marks on the assignment.

EJB is for managers and people who want to be sold a solution. PHP is for developers who know what it takes to build a solution and want to get it working, get it working right, and get it working right now.

Re:Hack-away (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#7010676)

Seriously, I'm scared if you ever get a job at any reputable company. I despise cheaters... and you happily admit that you cheated on your final project!

You're just a lame, dishonest, filthy pig.

Middle Tier (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#7010754)

How did you do the middle tier in PHP?

php in a microsoft shop? (4, Interesting)

ozric99 (162412) | about 11 years ago | (#7010497)

I work in a large, predominately MS, corp. I'd say that a good 80% of our boxes are running some variant of Windows - obviously there are the mainframes, and a fair few Solaris/legacy boxes dotted around. The PHBs here view php as something "geeky" that isn't suited for business. I'm sure they'd lap it up in a second if it were called MS Visual php Studio, however.

What problems have people had in trying to migrate their applications to php, and how did you overcome them? How would you sell php to your boss? Bearing in mind most of our applications aren't simple database-driven (and I used that word hesitantly!) ones like Slashdot - hint: banking and insurance sector.

Re:php in a microsoft shop? (1)

whereiswaldo (459052) | about 11 years ago | (#7010527)

How would you sell php to your boss?

Perhaps a good point to start would be asking: why was ASP chosen in the first place? And how would PHP provide a better solution?

hint: banking and insurance sector

I wouldn't expect financial companies to jump on the latest and greatest, though. If they have something that already works, I imagine it would be hard to make them change. Then again, if you can save them money.. :)

Re:php in a microsoft shop? (2, Insightful)

hamster foo (697718) | about 11 years ago | (#7010547)

Regarding the migration. Does it actually provide any benefits? I'm not talking arguments like it being open source or cross platform etc. Does it provide REAL benefits for your situation? If it does, then that's the first step to selling to your boss. If you can justify it to yourself, then most of the reasons should translate into a pretty good reason for him to agree.

If it saves you time that translates into money saved for him, as well as, more time for his work force to focus on other issues. If it's better suited for your applications, then it should be easy to show that to him in some form of improvement that he can see and that he would appreciate.

You've gotta think if you walk in and show him how PHP will save him X dollars and allow Y increase in productivity then he's going to pay attention to that. If it won't increase these, then from a business standpoint, there's not a lot of reason for him to change.

PHP for PHBs? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#7010591)

PHP just needs some more catchy terminology that doesn't mean anything. You know, marketing. Then the PHBs will lap up the PHP.

Enterprise 24x7 Visual PHP for B2B for PHB as seen on TV!

Re:php in a microsoft shop? (5, Interesting)

NightSpots (682462) | about 11 years ago | (#7010610)

You're absolutely crazy if you want to use PHP for banking and insurance apps.

It's security record is horrible.
It's security model is a joke.
It's object model is worthless compared to real OOP languages.
It completely lacks exception handling, which makes rolling back partial transactions (etc) impossible in banking scenarios.
It's developers regularly break POLA on minor version increments.
It's database support is mediocre at best: third party classes are currently the best (but not only) DB interface PHP has.

Stick with .NET or J2EE. They're clunky, .NET is expensive, J2EE is slow, but they're both leaps and bounds ahead of PHP.

J2EE is not slow (3, Interesting)

Kunta Kinte (323399) | about 11 years ago | (#7010716)

Stick with .NET or J2EE. They're clunky, .NET is expensive, J2EE is slow, but they're both leaps and bounds ahead of PHP.

I can understand why people think that Java is slow, taking that Java GUI widgets are usually slower than native widgets on the desktop. But J2EE is not inheritably slow.

Though there are clunkly J2EE apps out there, I'd wager on a hunch, that the average J2EE app would out-perform a same sized PHP app. If we add a PHP accelerator to the mix, like Turck MMCache [] , then PHP may have a fighting chance.

But remember, J2EE compiles the web application only *once* at startup, and can also ( and probably does ) optimize for the specific processor that it's running on. PHP, without an accelerator compiles on every hit, and PHP can't optimize for the specific processor unless you have a good sysadmin.

Re:php in a microsoft shop? (4, Insightful)

segment (695309) | about 11 years ago | (#7010625)

The PHBs here view php as something "geeky" that isn't suited for business. I'm sure they'd lap it up in a second if it were called MS Visual php Studio, however.

One thing you should keep in mind about programs from MS is that although they are crap, they offer someone you can speak to on the phone 24/7 as opposed to us geeks chopping things up or finding a forum, or jumping on irc to fix things up or create something. Microsoft is pretty and CTO's, CEO's, CFP's etc., need to be able to understand a product somewhat. I've used PHP for some time, and from my perspective is, there are too many hands in the pot spoiling the food.

Seems like every other month some new and improved programming language comes along and becomes the standard or some future standard. From a business point of view, I would rather go with what is established as opposed to what is promising. Promising isn't going to speak to a CTO through some task should his IT department walk out. Aside from that, standards already around are accompanied by people who get certified to perform these tasks. Now we know not all certs mean squat, but it's easier to find people who follow standards than those who follow promise.

heh (1, Insightful)

Erick the Red (684990) | about 11 years ago | (#7010500)

See how we've evaluated...what people think about PHP as an alternative to Java and .NET

I don't know about java, but I can see anything as being a good alternative to .NET.

Re:heh (3, Interesting)

Skim123 (3322) | about 11 years ago | (#7010648)

As a Web developer who has created Web applications in both PHP and ASP.NET, I can say, without hyperbole, that ASP.NET is one-million times better. Ok, so maybe there's a little hyperbole in there, and I know I'm just feeding a troll with this post, but I would wager that anyone with extensive experience with both PHP and ASP.NET would, at minimum, say ASP.NET is par with PHP, but would likely express that ASP.NET is better in a variety of areas. About the only negative for ASP.NET is its lack of cross-platformness, but with Mono and such, who knows how long this complaint will hold merit. Too, having Apache serve ASP.NET Web pages on a Windows box is something that is doable.

You would think (5, Funny)

gonerill (139660) | about 11 years ago | (#7010502)

PHP usage in the enterprise

that by the 23rd century they would have left PHP behind.

Or maybe it just shows the durability of opens source software.

Re:You would think (1)

commodoresloat (172735) | about 11 years ago | (#7010718)

How the hell do you think they plan to handle matter teleportation? perl?

Love PHP! (4, Interesting)

whereiswaldo (459052) | about 11 years ago | (#7010504)

I really enjoy using PHP for web development. I find that you can't beat scripting languages for ease of maintenance, quick turnaround time, and tweakability.

One of the big reasons I chose PHP was the availability of "LAMP": Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP. I know these technologies have been around for years and will be around for many more years, so it's an easy sell to management. There's plenty of talk on the newgroups if you ever get stuck and PHP's online documentation with user comments is priceless. I think more documentation should follow this example.

That aside, the pure performance and reliability of the above is excellent. These technologies were made to work together, and from what I hear the teams even collaborate to make sure their stuff stays working together. It really shows.

Years ago I worked on ASP/SQL Server solutions and where you had to go with native code for high-performance with ASP, I find that with PHP it is high performance on its own.

Great job to everyone who has helped put together these technology solutions. A shining example of the high quality that can come out of the collaborative efforts of many.

Re:Love PHP! (2, Interesting)

prell (584580) | about 11 years ago | (#7010567)

PHP is decent, but its support of more linear, "c-like" code, is disconcerting. The object-oriented features are likewise minimized and somewhat poor. I would quickly use Python or Ruby in place of PHP, given the availability of sufficient support packages (eRuby, HTML templating, etc.). I do not really enjoy writing software in PHP.

ASP is commendable for its exposure of certain classes to all "ASP-bridged languages," making available such interfaces as those that handle state data (such as sessions), and for its language "agnosticism," given that a bridge is written (from what I understand). I really believe strongly that the open-source community should develop an answer to ASP to allow any language to run in a certain capacity in relation to the web (again, HTML embedding, a standard "web" library to expose features such as state data in a standard way).

PHP usage in an enterprise environment? It wouldn't be my choice for a substantial web application. Being OSS doesn't automatically make it a better choice.

Re:Love PHP! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#7010657)

Yeah, but being OSS doesn't automatically make it a non-choice. Similarly, ASP, JSP, etc. being backed by corporations with deep pockets doesn't automatically make them better choices either.

Re:Love PHP! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#7010738)

No, but it does increase the likelyhood that they will integrate with your other "enterprise" applications.

Re:Love PHP! (2, Interesting)

GundyRage (611514) | about 11 years ago | (#7010601)

"LAMP": Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP

Or in my case "LAMP": Linux, Apache, MONO, PostgreSQL.

The truth is that it's sweet to have the right tool for the right job. Gotta love those options!


Fuck Horses (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#7010662)

yeah baby ride that mare

Re:Fuck Horses (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#7010672)

With your micro-soft dick. Loser.

Re:Love PHP! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#7010694)

Good God, the LAMP acronym must die die die! It's LAPP!! Linux Apache PostgreSQL PHP! People get a clue - MySQL sucks ass!

Sites that use PHP (-1, Redundant)

rc27 (601744) | about 11 years ago | (#7010507) [] uses PHP!

I've used it in the Enterprise (3, Insightful)

Henry V .009 (518000) | about 11 years ago | (#7010509)

PHP is a great tool, especially if you just plan to throw something together in no time flat. Start up MySQL with PHP and Apache and you have a rather full-featured system at an affordable price: $0. On the other hand, I have no idea on reliability figures for that mixture. Still, PHP is great to work with. Easiest interface in the world.

(P.S. Lots of programmers in the Enterprise. Data and me were always slapping together code for that clunky thing. Cloaked Romulans? Yeah right--just software bugs in the sensory system. "Uh, Captain, they've gone cloaked again." "Damn! Those ships have that capability!?!" Works every time.)

PHP (0)

G33kDragon (699950) | about 11 years ago | (#7010510)

Question: What do you get when you mix MS.NET and PHP in an efficient web-based development environment?


[? fire(phasers) ?] (1)

Akardam (186995) | about 11 years ago | (#7010511)

I can't have been the only one to think, "Gee, wouldn't it be odd to see Worf trying to bang away at some php in the middle of a battle?"

Guess it could be worse. If the Enterprise used PERL, the show wouldn't make any sense to anyone except the people who made it... oh, wait. Isn't that how it is right now under B&B?

I'm so confused...

These surveys are lacking (4, Insightful)

Eponymous Cowboy (706996) | about 11 years ago | (#7010512)

For both the Zend and InterAKT surveys, there are lots of raw numbers presented, but the interpretation is lacking. The commentaries on the InterAKT results are little more than "as you can see, such-and-such wedge of the pie is the largest," and there is no interpretation whatsoever on the Zend site.

Of course, this is a cheap and easy way to conduct a survey (multiple-choice), but the results are almost meaningless if they can't be put into context. I would have preferred to have seen a hundred randomly-selected PHP developers interviewed, essay-style, about why they are using PHP, their thoughts on PHP versus other technologies, etc., and then have the results compiled into a journal-quality article supported by graphs and raw numbers. The important information isn't in those graphs; it cannot be enumerated and broken down into clean categories.

Personally, I develop PHP sites because it's the fastest and simplest way I've found yet to publish dynamic web content. I've tried making sites with Java and .NET, and found both of them to be too far disconnected from the HTML that I'm trying to create. PHP provides an excellent blend of power, speed, simplicity, and directness.

Re:These surveys are lacking (1)

acostin (229653) | about 11 years ago | (#7010712)

For both the Zend and InterAKT surveys, there are lots of raw numbers presented, but the interpretation is lacking.

We know this is not complete, and we could do a lot of other cross-relevant filters, but the time was not enought unfortunately.
We plan to release a new survey results in about one month, that will include the initial feedback obtained from the developers, and also will include some very interesting survey subresults.

and then have the results compiled into a journal-quality article supported by graphs and raw

Both our surveys can support other researches on the market, by providing them with numbers and graphs - backed up by real data.


Spoiler ahead! (1)

teamhasnoi (554944) | about 11 years ago | (#7010521)

In the upcoming episode of Enterprise, Captain Archer and Trip use PHP to reconfigure the ship's computer to stream hot hidden camera footage [] of T'pol to the captain's ready room.

The beautiful power of PHP never fails to impress me.

Re:Spoiler ahead! (0, Offtopic)

zymano (581466) | about 11 years ago | (#7010530)

Thanks for the link. Jolene has one of the best Maxim spreads. Totally nude in one pic.

Entrepreneurs (2, Funny)

robogun (466062) | about 11 years ago | (#7010526)

All I can say, judging by the links in the spam I'm getting lately, is that the spammers have jumped all over PHP. Each and every last goddamn one of them is using it to process their form responses.

Re:Entrepreneurs (1)

hey (83763) | about 11 years ago | (#7010630)

I hope you aren't click on links in spam!
This just encourages them.

huh? (4, Insightful)

samantha (68231) | about 11 years ago | (#7010535)

What do we think about PHP as compared to Java and .net? What do we think about an grape as compared to a basketball and an egg? These are 3 quite different things. A HTML-generation targeted scripting language compared to a compiled general purpose language as compared to a distributed object and language framework is a pretty disparate set of things to compare.

Not on Slashdot.... (0, Troll)

MosesJones (55544) | about 11 years ago | (#7010645)

Remember on Slashdot...


Scripting is COOL, Scripting is GOOD, Scripting is FAST

The fact that managing distributed XA transactions and integrating with multiple datasources is the requirement doesn't matter... on Slashdot you can ALWAYS do it better in Perl.

Similar usage? (1)

AmVidia HQ (572086) | about 11 years ago | (#7010684)

I think the comparison is not so much in the scope of the languages / platforms, but on the utility of them to develop web sites / services? people still use PHP? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#7010539)

I thought PHP usage died when all jobs were outsourced to India. :-)
Actually, come to think of it, perhaps developers using esoteric languages like php, perl, python, ruby have more job stability than programmers of more mainstream languages.
Anyone know if this is true? people still use PHP? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#7010639)

php, perl, python, ruby are not "esoteric"!!

PHP is ok but... (5, Insightful)

theolein (316044) | about 11 years ago | (#7010541)

The language as it has been in most of it's 4.x.x iteration has been just about fine. Good for quick slap em together websites and small applications. But...

I have seen huge cumbersome application servers built around PHP that are a nightmare to maintain without having intimate familiarity with the code of the application server, such as Ampoliros or Ariadne, something which defeats the purpose of using such a large system in the first place. Such things really do work better with a OO by design language such as Java or ASP.Net (I assume, don't know .Net) where you can rely on the functionality of the objects without having to second guess the original developers.

My guess is that PHP needs a better OO design (and no, PHP5 is not it, yet) and better seperation of logic and presentation for larger systems.

But for smaller stuff, well it's hard to beat in terms of price and speed.

AxKit, XML based sites even worse (4, Interesting)

Fastball (91927) | about 11 years ago | (#7010580)

When you've laid eyes on an Apache/AxKit driven site that uses XPathScript and XSLT, then we'll talk. You want completely unmaintainable content? First, you have XML files which somehow are supposed to respresent data. Nevermind that somebody is supposed to make some kind of heads or tails of these things. Second, you have either XPathScript (.xps) or XSLT (.xsl) which is somehow supposed to transform that XML into discernable HTML that a browser can use. In the case of XPathScript, you have an wacked hodgepodge of Perl and HTML. Nothing halfway understandable like an Embperl, Mason, or even Text::Template template or component. No, go look up XPathScript to see what I mean. XSLT stylesheets are no better.

I want to believe in the XML's mission, but when I recently took up a migration of someone else's AxKit driven site, I haven't been able to get much sleep (it's 2:28am on a Friday night and I'm rebuilding a server to accomodate this goofy setup).

Re:AxKit, XML based sites even worse (1)

acostin (229653) | about 11 years ago | (#7010748)

It seems that you are pretty angry at the XML/XSL approach - and I must admit that the initial learning curse is very steep - we had the same problems when we've met Cocoon2 2 years ago and didn't have a clue on how to handle it.

However (we have advanced a lot in the meanwhile and even created our own XML/XSL publishing engine particularized to PHP), we have reached a point where the architectural beauty of the platform really pays off.

Check our documentation for Krysalis, take a look at our IDE and you will see that this could be pretty simple to work in this XML/XSL approach - Krysalis home []


Re:PHP is ok but... (1)

boomgopher (627124) | about 11 years ago | (#7010584)

Amen, we went through the same experience on a carrier-scale app. Once the app reached a certain 'critical-mass' it just became fucking impossible to maintain.

We trashed it, and started over with a Java-based webapp using Struts, and trust me, it is magnitudes better.

Re:PHP is ok but... (1)

Malcontent (40834) | about 11 years ago | (#7010620)

It's not so much the fault of the language. You can certainly write model view controllet apps with php. You can write well disgned OO code in php too. Nothing is preventing you from doing that.

It's just that php apps start small and it's easy to just slap them together. If the app is allowed to grow in a haphazard way without a serious and thoughful refactoring then you get huge ugly messes.

That being said PHP really should have a "strict" mode where it enforces type safety. They are going to make headway on that with php5. Also it would be nice to have some sort of a j2ee like environment.

Re:PHP is ok but... (2, Informative)

acostin (229653) | about 11 years ago | (#7010732)

As for maintainability,

I have seen huge cumbersome application servers built around PHP that are a nightmare to maintain without having intimate familiarity with the code of the application server

We have met the same problem indeed with PHP application, caused by the mix of application logic and presentation layer... PHP is good and very easy to setup and create a site, but maintaining a large PHP application can be *nightmare*.

As we've met the same problems, we try to offer a free platform for a PHP MVC platform - Krysalis [] . Krysalis - it's a platform (inspired from Cocoon2) to allow content publishing using XML as the data representation mode and XSL to add the presentation layer on it. It also includes a MVC (Model View Controller) implementation to allow you to fit how web requests are served from your site.

Krysalis includes some features for authentication, validation and dynamic XML generation, and also includes a lot of (what our marketing department likes to call) "enterprise level" code techniques - that is taglib code reuse (in the application logic and presentation layer), etc.
As far as I know, we have closed to Struts in terms of taglibs and controller definitions, and we are continuing this way

Another interesting features integrated in the Krysalis core are the caching mechanisms. Being a pretty abstract architecture where flexibility is a must and everything is defined using XML, we needed a very powerful way to transform those XML definitions into pure executable PHP code. We have started with PEAR cache but it was not up to the task, so we've come with our own cache implementation, that keeps the generated PHP code on the disk in a require (this way the generated file can be also compiled when using a PHP Accelerator).

We have very large applications built on Krysalis (CMS systems or Intranets), and they are very easy to maintain even if they were hard to architect and create - as they use for 10 installation a single core and the differences in the applications are handled through smart Controller techniques - so we have a very powerful and usable way of separating the application logic from the presentation layer.


On the Enterprise? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonvmous Coward (589068) | about 11 years ago | (#7010542)


"Unable to comply: Error 404"

Re:On the Enterprise? (1)

NanoGator (522640) | about 11 years ago | (#7010546)

"Unable to comply: Error 404"

I don't get it. Are you saying that the Enterprise was Slashdotted?

Yahoo (5, Informative)

AmVidia HQ (572086) | about 11 years ago | (#7010543)

is the prime enterprise use example (although they still use legacy, prepritary web programming based on C, all their new developments are run on PHP and BSD, correct me if i'm wrong)

I worked in a small shop, the web app isn't mission critical stuff like banking, but it wasn't "brainless dump data from Mysql". I was lucky that my boss was totally not picky about languages, as long as it gets the job done. But if I have anyone I work with that doubts the power and simplicity of PHP, Yahoo would be my example.

And so far, developing on the so called LAMP platform, I love PHP and would use it for any and all web development. It can be used as a quick hack (an argument always used against PHP btw, that it's only good for a quick hack and not for professional use), OR you can code it like a pro with objects et al. I was not impressed by Mysql however, it is by no means stable (this is v 4.0.13), but that's another topic.

My sig is my personal pet project using PHP

Yahoo is NOT "enterprise" (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#7010608)

Yeah, the word "enterprise" is annoying and marketingy and overused, but look at what Yahoo is actually doing.

90% of their pages are simply taking a stock or news feed and slapping some HTML and rotating ads on it. Trivial. There's no transactions, or distributed systems, or anything traditionally found in "enterprise" systems. Half their shit doesn't even seem to use a database.

When Yahoo codes their financial system in PHP, then start talking.

Re:Yahoo is NOT "enterprise" (1)

AmVidia HQ (572086) | about 11 years ago | (#7010650)

The criteria for enterprise-readiness is stability and security, NOT complexity. Complexity comes from the programmer, not from the language. Unless you have to tie in with other systems like Java of course (you would use JSP in that case), I don't see any limiting factor that would keep PHP from being used in your definition of enterprise use (financial, mission critical stuff).

My point is, Yahoo is a big website / service and the stability and security of the language it is built on is as important as any financial use (although i admit you have more to lose with a banking system going down than Yahoo going down, I've never seen PHP doing funny things like BSODs)

PS. I forgot to put <shameless plug> tags around my shameless plug in my initial post, sorry about that

Re:Yahoo is NOT "enterprise" (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#7010733)

>Yahoo is a big website / service

Of course they are. For a long time they served only static pages or SSIs. Does that make static HTML "enterprise technology"?

Yahoo primarily scales by having a bajillion webservers. Also, PHP's security reputation hasn't traditionally been all that great. (much of that has to do with bad coding practices promoted in the PHP community tho)

I'm not going to stop you from arguing that "Personal Home Page" is enterprise software. Go right ahead. I think the term is stupid anyway. I'll just point out that Yahoo is a "brainless dump data" site (your term), and that PHP lacks even the basics such as a good database layer, component integration, and transaction server component.

Re:Yahoo is NOT "enterprise" (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#7010660)

I wouldn't be so quick to judge Yahoo's system. They handle a huge number of users every day and their stuff has to load balance and scale to do that. How do you think they do it?

Re:Yahoo is "enterprise" TOO (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#7010741)

You're massively underestimating what it takes to be yahoo.

Anyway, for "enterprise" code, PHP code should NOT be big and complex. It should be streamlined and efficient so it can take the load.
Complex code will be written in C/C++ with wrappers exposing that code to PHP.

As another poster said, comparing j2ee or .net to php is downright silly. PHP is a templating language, and any attempt to build a full "enterprise" system in 100% PHP is an exercise in masochism or incompetence.

Fast and Easy (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#7010549)

I like PHP for simple things, the kind of scripts that I can google for and have working in a few minutes. I love it for templating sites. For anything remotely complicated, I tend to go with ASP.NET

The real comparison is against Cold Fusion (4, Insightful)

Black Art (3335) | about 11 years ago | (#7010564)

Cold Fusion is also a web scripting language, but costs quite a bit.

The last time I compared the two (admitedly a while ago) PHP had many more features and was the much better choice. (Even if they were priced the same, which they are not.)

Even more telling is the amount of books available for each. There are seven Cold Fusion books still in print according to Amazon. (Most the same book for different versions of Cold Fusion.) A search for PHP gets 112 hits. (I am not certain how many are still in print. Much more than seven.)

Comparing Java (a general purpose language) to PHP (a web scripting language) seems to be a bad comparison. Comparing it to .net (a proprietary collection of patent encumbered programs and methods) even more so.

Re:The real comparison is against Cold Fusion (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#7010617)

Cold Fusion is dead. It should never have been born in the first place.

The things that PHP are roughly comparable to are are Perl and ASP.

And even compared to JavaScript/ASP (which is basically a dead product now), PHP doesn't hold it's own very well. JS has better OO and exceptions, and ASP has better database and xml libs.

PHP's real comparison is against Cold Fusion (1)

flagweb (311539) | about 11 years ago | (#7010737)

I have done quit a bit of work for large clients with both Cold Fusion and PHP. Most clients did not care what language the code was written in.
They rarely cared about much more than these three things:

1- How much will It cost us to deploy solution X.
2- Who quickly will solution X be operational.
3- Is it compatible with our current infrastructure.

Becaues of this clients who were already using Cold Fusion wanted us to use it for their new projects. The rest were quite happy when we would suggest a PHP solution.

Ernie Dambach

PHP in the Enterprise? (1, Redundant)

Animats (122034) | about 11 years ago | (#7010569)

You'd think the Federation would have advanced beyond PHP.

StarOffice 7 (-1, Offtopic)

UNCIRCUMCISED d00d (709211) | about 11 years ago | (#7010574)

Hi! It sounds like StarOffice 7 is off the hook. Does anyone know where I can download it for free (i.e. as an unofficial "trial" version)? Before I buy it, I'd like to try it. Reason: Reviews of open-source software are usually strongly biased. How do I know if StarOffice is really good? Sure it might be the cream of the crop when it comes to open source, but how does it compare to real applications, like MS Office? That's why I'd like to download it for free first. Kazaa? BitTorrent? AIM? Anyone?

It's Friday night! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#7010582)

I just want to give a shout out to all you guys hanging in there, posting on Slashdot and surfing the Net on a Friday night. Who needs a date when you have the warm glow of the Slashdot comments section shining down on you. Throw in a little pr0n, and you have a really nice evening!! See you around!

Re:It's Friday night! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#7010588)

I did that last night.

Tonight, its just /., no pr0n

Re:It's Friday night! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#7010655)

you ain't gettin laid either, luser, else you wouldn't be posting here

say hello to rosy palm from all of us

Coolest language (4, Informative)

linuxperformer (642564) | about 11 years ago | (#7010586)

PHP is the coolest language for Web development today. It provides the features of Perl but designed to be a Web development language. PHP is my primary choice if the applications doesn't demand complicated business abstractions (Java scores in such situations). Using an accelerator like ionCube [] will be icing-on-the-cake.

Re:Coolest language (1)

Kunta Kinte (323399) | about 11 years ago | (#7010729)

Using an accelerator like ionCube will be icing-on-the-cake.

Try Turck MMCache [] instead.

GPL'ed and is very, very fast. It's been doing very well compared to even the commercial accelerators. In fact the only accelerator that *edges* Turck MMCache in performance is the Zend accelerator. Check at [] for a few numbers and links.

PHP Cruise (1)

MrEnigma (194020) | about 11 years ago | (#7010632)

Maybe this will be a good way to get my company to fund my PHP Cruise.

Too bad we're all Perl/JSP Shop.

Enterprise ? (1)

MosesJones (55544) | about 11 years ago | (#7010644)

In order to win a pitch with a PHP solution, a company should offer a good price and should have a very good proposal.

To get a profitable PHP business, you have to sell either CMS's or Intranets.

The obstacles to be surpassed are the fear of unknown technology, the compatibility between PHP solutions and existing ASP or Java applications. One should focus on the solution offered not on the technology when bidding for a project.

This is about WEBSITES for Intranets. This isn't in the enterprise, this is the information site the HR department thinks everyone should have. And while I do applaud the rules above, i.e. sell solutions not technology, I question the idea that this is PHP in the enterprise.

PHP in the enterprise would be PHP being used within a business critical function. Say something like your stock management system, or procurement system, CRM etc.

Now to all the people who are about to write pithy replies, please realise that 95%+ of systems out there are NOT websites, and that the ability to render pages easily is last on the list of reasons to use a technology.

This is "PHP in the low end of the website market" NOT PHP in the enterprise.

why it will have trouble (2, Insightful)

b17bmbr (608864) | about 11 years ago | (#7010652)

i used perl almost exclusively, then had a couple of projects and used php. it was a dream to use. nice syntax, powerful built in functions, not super verbose like java nor bizarre like perl. you can cruft together a few pages or create a huge site. been there, done both. however, remember PHP is a templating language. designed to be so. so, it is not necesarily an OOP language, yet is is OO in nature. for instance, create different .php files and piece together your pages. as for security, use good programming skills. duh. for instance, keep your connections in separate files. then just include("connection.php"); that will help.

that being established, it will have trouble being accepted as an enterprise tool because it is not backed by a company. java backed by sun, .NET by what's that company, i forgot. linux didn't really enter mainstream until IBM ponied up a billion. no matter how great a tool, it just seems cheap, and to businesses, they just won't "risk" it. sad. the other problem that php has it that it is esy to put together a good site, and easy to learn and use. java and .net are not. so, it seems like BASIC. you can't use that for serious apps.

Re:why it will have trouble (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 11 years ago | (#7010697)

Hey dipshit--I have news for you:


I have to disagree. (1)

dodell (83471) | about 11 years ago | (#7010734)

I'm not sure about this. Merriam-Webster uses PHP for their online dictionary; Yahoo uses PHP for their site and many other corporations are using PHP for thier web development.

Additionally, PHP 5 has true OO support and ends up looking a lot like a hybrid C/C++/Java.

I think one of the main reasons it hasn't been picked up in corporations is because of its lack of OO features (and possibly its inability to be compiled into a single app), although you do have plenty of good encoders and caches.

I don't think speed's really an issue -- PHP consumes a relatively low amount of memory and is quite fast. On a 143MHz UltraSPARC IIi, I can fetch and pattern match 70,000 directory listings from a MySQL connection to a remote computer and display output in approximately 15 seconds. On a modern machine, this is instantaneous. Additionally, the caches speed up the process by magnitudes. PHP has a much lower overhead than enterprise Java (even J2SE) and .NET. And it does a good job doing what it does :).

And I'd suggest that you take a look into using the require_once language construct instead of include ;).

Finally, PHP is an Apache Group-backed project, so it's not just floating out there with a few developers. PHP has great documentation, tons of developers and a huge publisher interest (buy my books, BTW). I think it could make it.

PHP in the Enterprize?? (1, Funny)

schnits0r (633893) | about 11 years ago | (#7010663)

Did captain Picard approve?

This discussion is like so 1999 (4, Insightful)

Skim123 (3322) | about 11 years ago | (#7010665)

A more appropriate question, as another poster mentioned, is what's better: PHP, classic ASP, or Cold Fusion? Those are stand-alone scripting technologies. ASP.NET and JSP are more platform-based, providing true OOP, an impressive set of base classes, and so on.

If you are interested in the scripting language comparison, see Server-Side Scripting Shootout [] .

php is just dandy (1)

rwven (663186) | about 11 years ago | (#7010668)

I've been using php for about a year to do scripting at work. It's familiar feel and ease of use make it a perfect candidate IMO. True it's not the fastest language out there, but it IS powerful and very easy to code (again, IMO).

I've also done a lot of web programming w/ PHP as well ( for one), and i find it WONDERFUL for web work. i've tried everything from shtml to C++ coded binaries for web stuff and havent found a lanuage for it yet that i like more than php...

mouvement? (0, Offtopic)

utexaspunk (527541) | about 11 years ago | (#7010706)

i think you mean movement, but given php's color of choice, i could understand calling it a mauvement... :)

Backend for PHP webapp? (4, Insightful)

Cyberax (705495) | about 11 years ago | (#7010744)

.NET has COM+ for backend systems, Java has EJB, but PHP has nothing :( I can't use distributed transactions, transparent failover, declarative security and transaction demarcation in PHP.
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