Beta

Slashdot: News for Nerds

×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

cancel ×

974 comments

HOMESTAR RUNNER IS THE GOD YOU YEARN FOR (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023509)

FIRST POST kick out the JAMS motherFUCKERS (hugs)

Agreed! (3, Funny)

toupsie (88295) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023510)

It pollutes the environment and wastes gas...

Re:Agreed! (-1, Offtopic)

jr87 (653146) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023537)

I support Terrorism Ask me how!

Re:Agreed! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023589)

what are you talking about offtopic? it is the bumperstickers people put on (other peoples) SUV's

Re:Agreed! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023591)

How?

Re:Agreed! (-1)

SMOC (703423) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023620)

He destroys the US economy from within by spending most of his time at work posting on /.

CowboyNeal == Fat Sexless Socially Inept Slob (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023587)

for sure

Re:Agreed! (4, Funny)

parseexception (516727) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023623)

A project done in Java will cost 5 times as much, take twice as long, and be harder to maintain than a project done in a scripting language such as PHP or Perl.
not only that if you have to change direction quickly it will roll over and burst into flames

Re:Agreed! (4, Insightful)

fshalor (133678) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023684)

If gas is CPU power. HP is RAM, etc. It's a pretty accurate discription. Java is an all-terrain vehicle of code (runs on multiple OS's well) which has lotts of flexibility, IE, towinr, storage, passanger space, etc.

It's not a volvo XC, or auidi quatro. It couldn't possibly hang through a world cross rally with the subaru's and the big "P" dogs.

I'd call it something like an 4-runner with a stick shift. When you need it, it's there. But... wait a minute. Sun doesn't think linx is worth the disk space anymore... Why am I pushing Java? Perl! It's got to be PERL! :)

Thank linus for this cup of coffee...

Re:Agreed! (1, Insightful)

flu1d (664635) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023694)

it pollutes the environment and wastes gas... and has a tendancy to roll over and crash more than any other vehicle.

Make Java Open Source! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023513)

Yes, that would be the way to go in order to make Java's interpreter system lighter.

Which is nice.

Re:Make Java Open Source! (4, Insightful)

jacksonyee (590218) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023691)

You mean like Kaffe [kaffe.org] ?

The Java class library, the language standard, and even the bytecode itself has been pretty well documented in many sources across the web. There's nothing preventing you from making your own version should you wish to - it's just that most people have decided that one of the existing implementations are "good enough" for their uses, just like many people decided that Windows 98 was "good enough."

I personally still don't buy this "Java is an SUV" argument. A programming language is a tool, and a bad programmer can write horrible code in any language or environment. I've said this before on ./, but knowing which tool to use and why you're using it is the most important thing to realize when you're programming.

JAVA is the suv? (4, Insightful)

192939495969798999 (58312) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023514)

Well, then I guess we better quit using it or else face huge gasoline deficits! I am sorry, but JAVA and SUV's are so totally different that the comparison is pointless. JAVA may be slightly slower than other languages, but it provides for rapid development and portability that are a developer's dream. JAVA is the developers' programming language.

Programming lesson 101 (4, Insightful)

192939495969798999 (58312) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023543)

Let me also state that apparently, according to the article, JAVA is bad because i'd have to move a question mark in a query. Well... if you need a programming lesson, how about not hard-coding SQL strings? If I decompile your great JAVA/.NET /ActiveX component that I downloaded, can I get at all your hard-coded passwords, query strings, etc? If so, I don't think you can blame JAVA.

Proving a point (0, Offtopic)

192939495969798999 (58312) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023693)

I wrote this reply to prove a point. I took a positive case for JAVA only to see the number of people who were willing to present actual test cases where JAVA didn't work that well, and I got several. I will be using them in my talk today with Sun. Thanks for your help! :)

Re:JAVA is the suv? (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023549)

You mean, "JAVA is the language of the people who like to call themselves developers."

Re:JAVA is the suv? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023562)

>Java is the developers' programming language?

Oh please. Thats ridiculous. Pick the correct tool for the job. At least C++/vi kept out the VBA-like coders from infecting too many systems, lowering the entry barrier and making it easier is not always a good thing....

Re:JAVA is the suv? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023645)

Ah, C++, home of the mighty buffer overflow and the majestic security hole. Where the incomprehensible code roams across the land of the noncompliant compiler. How do I love thee, C++!

Re:JAVA is the suv? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023663)

You're thinking about C, sparky. C++ has STL strings which are immune from buffer overflow.

Re:JAVA is the suv? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023593)

it provides for rapid development and portability that are a developer's dream

That must explain why we've spent the last week wasting our time with a newly delivered peice of code that refuses to run. It was developed on Apache/Tomcat and we tried to deploy it on Weblogic. Whoops, not so portable after all!

Whoever wrote the stinking pile of crap wasn't what I'd call "a developer", either. I'd call them something, but certainly not a "developer"

Re:JAVA is the suv? (2, Insightful)

aborchers (471342) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023636)


it provides for rapid development and portability that are a developer's dream

That must explain why we've spent the last week wasting our time with a newly delivered peice of code that refuses to run.


No, the incompetence of your developer explains that. Just because you can write it in Java doesn't guarantee its portability. Java gives you abstractions that can be used to guarantee portability, but it is a complete language and therefore also gives you, to nick the famous axiom about C, enough rope to shoot yourself in the foot.


Whoever wrote the stinking pile of crap wasn't what I'd call "a developer", either. I'd call them something, but certainly not a "developer"


Ah, I see you've come to the same conclusion yourself...

Re:JAVA is the suv? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023659)

The only reason I brought it up is because I'm a little fed up with the oft-quoted meme that "Java is portable! Compile once, run anywhere!", which somehow implies that Java is this magical, completely abstracted wonder language that will solve all your RAD problems in one fell swoop. Of course, it is nothing of the sort.

As for the developers, well it was outsourced to the cheapest bid. In India. I've worked with some excelent Indian developers before, but these guys must have taught themselves to code on a Speak 'n Spell.

Re:JAVA is the suv? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023714)

Is the euphamism you are looking for "enough rope to hang yourself" or ".. gives us a gun to shoot yourself in the foot"? Your version doesn't make sense and isn't even funny.

Wahhh !!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023606)

Java is not slow. I ran benchmark that called
assembly language routines to do floating point
calculations. It's 90% as fast as "C". Wahhh.
Mommy!

Re:Wahhh !!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023650)

Lets see, you actualy saying its slower then "C"?
mm, so what about those statements that Java is faster then C? (Yes alot of people has said so).

I beleave the question was "Is Java slower then C".
and the answer is "-No, erh, yes, but no, not realy?"

Re:JAVA is the suv? (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023607)

JAVA is the developers' programming language.

With all respect, that's crap. Java is the _managers'_ programming language of choice. It enforces a particular style of programming (right down to naming convontions), it takes a specific programming 'paradigm' (OO) to an unnecessary extreme and it's chock full of trendy buzzwords and BiCapitalised MumboJumbo. Perfect for PHBs.

JAVA may be slightly slower than other languages,

Says the Iraqi Information Minister.The fact is that, thanks to it's use of garbage collection and because it stores non-primitives on the heap, Java will always be _significantly_ slower than C/C++, no matter whose JIT you are using.

This article explains it well. [jelovic.com]

Re:JAVA is the suv? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023615)

JAVA is the developers' programming language is valid where "developers" equals "crap programmer"

Re:JAVA is the suv? (-1, Flamebait)

banzai51 (140396) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023637)

All of which means nothing if the end user is annoyed by the lack of speed of your application, or in Java version hell because your Java app won't work with the mandatory Java version of another app.

I wish onto Java a cold, pale death.

Re:JAVA is the suv? (5, Interesting)

wegrzyn (80917) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023674)

I think you miss the point. Before you go back and re-read the article put aside your obvious bias. The problem he was mentioning was that Java is not the right language for every situation. He was stating that you need to understand what you need to perform the job and use the right system. In cases of web-side solutions he is saying perhaps Java is over-kill.

I've written software in C that has been ported with little effort from one hardware platform to another with less effort than I have seen of many Java applications. I might suggest C is the language of choice for programmers.

Yup (-1, Flamebait)

SnowWolf2003 (692561) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023518)

Bloated and overkill for just driving down the road to the shops.

so I guess that would make C# the.... (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023529)

Pinto?

Re:so I guess that would make C# the.... (2, Funny)

Epistax (544591) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023712)

I think VB would be one of those things you put together with lego.

/.'d already.... (1)

cbiltcliffe (186293) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023530)

Anybody got a mirror?

Re:/.'d already.... (0)

SMOC (703423) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023550)

Google [google.com] is your friend.

Re:/.'d already.... (4, Informative)

jrc313 (168973) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023631)

Google does [216.239.59.104]

copy und paste!!! (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023704)

Java is the SUV of programming tools
Our students this semester in 6.171, Software Engineering for Internet Applications have divided themselves into roughly three groups. One third has chosen to use Microsoft .NET, building pages in C#/ASP.NET connecting to SQL Server. One third has chosen to use scripting languages such as PHP connecting to PostgreSQL and sometimes Oracle. The final third, which seems to be struggling the most, is using Java Server Pages (JSP) with Oracle on Linux. JSP is fantastically simpler than "J2EE", which is the recommended-by-Sun way of building applications, but still it seems to be too complex for seniors and graduate students in the MIT computer science program, despite the fact that they all had at least one semester of Java experience in 6.170.

After researching how to do bind variables in Java (see the very end of http://philip.greenspun.com/internet-application-w orkbook/software-structure), which turns out to be much harder and more error-prone than in 20-year-old C interfaces to relational databases, I had an epiphany: Java is the SUV of programming tools.

A project done in Java will cost 5 times as much, take twice as long, and be harder to maintain than a project done in a scripting language such as PHP or Perl. People who are serious about getting the job done on time and under budget will use tools such as Visual Basic (controlled all the machines that decoded the human genome). But the programmers and managers using Java will feel good about themselves because they are using a tool that, in theory, has a lot of power for handling problems of tremendous complexity. Just like the suburbanite who drives his SUV to the 7-11 on a paved road but feels good because in theory he could climb a 45-degree dirt slope. If a programmer is attacking a truly difficult problem he or she will generally have to use a language with systems programming and dynamic type extension capability, such as Lisp. This corresponds to the situation in which my friend, the proud owner of an original-style Hummer, got stuck in the sand on his first off-road excursion; an SUV can't handle a true off-road adventure for which a tracked vehicle is required.

With Web applications, nearly all of the engineering happens in the SQL database and the interaction design, which is embedded in the page flow links. None of the extra power of Java is useful when the source of persistence is a relational database management system such as Oracle or SQL Server. Mostly what you get with Java are reams of repetitive declarations at the top of every script so that the relevant code for serving a page is buried several screens down. With a dynamic language such as Lisp, PHP, Perl, Tcl, you could do bind variables by having the database interface look at local variables in the caller's environment. With Java the programmer is counting question marks in the SQL query and saying "Associate the 7th question mark with the number 4247", an action that will introduce a bug into the program as soon as the SQL query is modified (since now the 7th question mark has been moved to become the 8th question mark in the query).

Re:/.'d already.... (1)

mgs1000 (583340) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023667)

I guess it's hosted on the Geo Metro of web servers.

.net (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023531)

and .net is a tank rush (some will recognise the reference :)

Finally (4, Interesting)

doe (64198) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023539)

A voice of reason. It is refreshing to see a diffrent viewpoint in this time of Java craze. In my own experience (and I work for a web development house) you can cut down time of development by factor 5-10 using a weakly typed scripting language such as PHP.

Re:Finally (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023578)

I've been writing web applications since the late 70s (initially for the NSA before we made it public) and in my experience Java has a lot of inherent faults that render it useless for large scope projects.

It's cross-platform feature has been tainted by the agenda of the forces that dominate the respective operating system (BeOS, Windows, OS/2, Mac OS, and AIX). That is a pity since Sun had done such a phenomenal job in releasing the first public Java release back in 1985 which at the time would run on Commodore 128 and my Amstrad PC. About a year later they released a IBM PC version but unfortunately it required 256k of memory which made it dificult to deploy at the time.

Re:Finally (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023692)

"I've been writing web applications since the late 70s"

Huh?

"releasing the first public Java release back in 1985"

Double Huh?

Re:Finally (0, Funny)

ctl (685617) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023612)

A voice of reason

Well, note that Phil does advocate in his article the use of VB instead!

Re:Finally (1)

Kytakh (512678) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023633)

Im glad you found something in the article worthwile...

Re:Finally (5, Insightful)

gilgongo (57446) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023635)

If you'd said "I work for a web development house that used to produce everyting using J2EE, then we discovered PHP..." I'd be more interested in what you had to say about the merits of PHP over Java. Let me guess - you also can't undertand why anyone would use Oracle when MySQL is so easy and fast, yes?

It's all about horses for courses.

There is an "overhead" in Java, because it's not designed for quick-n-dirty deployment of something trivial. Getting the whole J2EE thing together to deliver a mail form is obviously going to take you 5 times longer in Java than it will in, say, perl or PHP.

But that's obvious, isn't it?

Re:Finally (1)

aborchers (471342) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023651)

A voice of reason. It is refreshing to see a diffrent viewpoint in this time of Java craze.


<sarcasm>Yeah, I've never heard anyone complain about Java before...</sarcasm>

Pascal is king (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023541)

Yeah, it kicks COBOL's ass! It has records, subroutines, pointer, and even select statements. Java is like so 90s.

Re:Pascal is king (0)

SMOC (703423) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023597)

Yeah, and who needs static or initialized local variables anyway. Oh you mean I should use assignable consts for that? Yeah that makes sense.

Re:Pascal is king (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023621)

Yeah, and who needs static or initialized local variables anyway. Oh you mean I should use assignable consts for that? Yeah that makes sense.


Dear Sir,
please refrain from hijacking this thread to express your own personal opinions.
Thank you,
Mr Blinky

Re:Pascal is king (0)

SMOC (703423) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023654)

I just wanted to say that I admire the stylish and capable manner in which you dealt with that situation.

Thank you for making this world a little better.

Re:Pascal is king (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023713)

Dear Sir,
and we at our organization thank you for taking the time to contribute to the content of the world wide web. Feel free to do so more often and we hope that you receive more interesting replies than this one.
Sincerely,
Mr Blinky

Worst analogy ever (1)

Powercntrl (458442) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023548)

What's next, articles comparing P2P filesharing to looting and plundering on the high seas?

Re:Worst analogy ever (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023561)

I'm with you 99%.

Re:Worst analogy ever (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023622)

Mmm, nice comparison, can I compare assembly programming to bull running, it gets you fit and fast, but it winds up being a pain in the ass.

Re:Worst analogy ever (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023664)

I dunno, SUV=Resource hog, slow, and bulky. Sounds accurate to me....

Next stop, Flash is the Volkswagon Beetle, cute on the outside, trouble on the inside. :)

Re:Worst analogy ever (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023672)

Arvast matey, I'm going to download all your sea shanties without paying. Arrrh.

SUV? Sure! (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023552)

Does that mean it's big, bloated and flips over every time you try to push it to do what it's supposed to do?

/me wonders what the Firestone tires of programming is. Then goes to RTFA.

Re:SUV? Sure! (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023590)

Couldn't RTFA, for some unknown reason. Thank you, /.!

Penis extension? (4, Funny)

skaffen42 (579313) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023553)

OK, I've heard Java called a lot of things and I know it has its faults, but I really don't think the SUV comparison holds water.

Nobody ever started using Java because they wanted to compensate for a small penis, which is the only possible reason for buying an Hummer.

Re:Penis extension? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023626)

On the contrary my friend! I have a VERY large penis and therefore need a hummer to stay comfortable ;)

Re:Penis extension? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023660)

Large exhaust pipe?

Re:Penis extension? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023644)

Troll=1, Redundant=2, Funny=6, Overrated=3, Total=12: So was it funny or not?

It was a redundantly overrated joke with a dash of troll. Next time, post something original or start a new running gag... You'll get +5 for sure.

ms.net...?working? is the softwar gangster, (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023557)

corepirate nazi execrable of PCville.

we'll take the ?clunky? stuff made by folks who aren't stock markup felons, thanks.

coming soon to/already on, yOUR desktop/network?:

Due to excessive bad posting from this IP or Subnet, comment posting has temporarily (permanently, if we could figure out how to do it) been disabled. If it's you, consider this a chance to sit in the timeout corner. If it's someone else, this is a chance to hunt them down. If you think this is unfair, we don't care.

alert: you've been lax in yOUR payper liesense 'upgrades', you're out.

alert: there's a rumour that you've been badmouthing/lowrating the corepirate nazis, & the naykid furor of the felonious kingdumb, you're out.

alert: looks like yOUR kids have been listening to music again, you're out.

alert: although you appear to be browsing regularly, you've failed to make a purchase recently, you're out.

consider this a chance to stare at your monitor screen, & plan how you can become .compliant. if you think that you are already compliant, & it's somebody else, consider this a chance to rat them out, to gain re-admission to the onLIEn wwwhirled again, (c SourceForgerIE(tm) all rights reserved, you have none).

etc... lookout bullow. these foulcurrs haven't a clue yet, as to what J. Public can do, once he's peaced off. they live in a tiny wwworld, consisting of only their owned greed/fear based goals. they should get ready to see the light.

we're building a vessel that floats on almost any suBStance.

as to the newclear power/planet/population rescue initiative:

it's all free (as in survival), & available immediately to you/all of US.

as you can maybe already see, yOUR survival/success is not the least bit dependent on the gadgets/combinations of the greed/fear based corepirate nazis, & their phonIE ?pr? ?firm? buyassed /.puppets.

consult with/trust in yOUR creator. more breathing. vote with yOUR wallet (somtimes that means not buying anything, a notion previously unmentioned buy the greed/fear/war mongers). seek others of non-aggressive/positive behaviours/intentions. stop wasting anything/being frivolous. that's the spirit.

investigate the newclear power plan. J. Public et AL has yet to become involved in open/honest 'net communications/commerce in a meaningful way. that's mostly due to the MiSinformation suppLIEd buy phonIE ?pr? ?firm?/stock markup FraUD execrable, etc...

truth is, there's no better/more affordable/effective way that we know of, for J. to reach other J.'s &/or their respective markets.

the overbullowned greed/fear based phonIE marketeers are self eliminating by their owned greed/fear/ego based evile MiSintentions. they must deny the existence of the power that is dissolving their ability to continue their self-centered evile behaviours.

as the lights continue to come up, you'll see what we mean. meanwhile, there are plenty of challenges, not the least of which is the planet/population rescue (from the corepirate nazi/walking dead contingent) initiative.

EVERYTHING is going to change, despite the lameNT of the evile wons. you can bet your .asp on that. when the lights come up, there'll be no going back, & no where to hide.

we weren't planted here to facilitate/perpetuate the excesses of a handful of Godless felons. you already know that? yOUR ONLY purpose here is to help one another. any other pretense is totally false.

pay attention (to yOUR environment, for example). that's quite affordable, & leads to insights on preserving life as it should/could/will be again. everything's ALL about yOUR motives.

that old tune title (hope we don't get 'busted' for using it) "make the world go away", takes on new/varied meaning in these times.

the prevalent notion that 'everything will be taken care of' without yOUR knowledge/participation is insidiously misleading.

in our estimation, the biggest 'threat' against US (aside from continuing to fire bullinedly into the 'crowd', whilst demanding applause), would be a failure to recognize our 'role' in the problems. we're victims for sure, but whoare ALL the perpetrators (see also: corepirate nazi puppets), gets lost in the ?pr? ?firm? generated propaganda spew.

consult with/trust in yOUR creator. seek others of non-aggressive behaviours/intentions. that's the spirit.

the lights ARE coming up now. pay attention (to yOUR heart, for example). that could lead to new ways (see also: newclear power plan) of thinking about/dealing with, the needs/rights of others EVERYWHERE on the planet.

having the attention span of a gnat, & similar ambitions, might be ok if you are just planning to be a consumer/type one liners.

take care of each other, you're all we've got. we're here for you. get ready to see the light.--

worth reading, again, with feeling.

"It takes a long time to teach the judges, legislators, and public to understand technology. Right now, they're getting a strong dose of "education" on the Internet's threats and harms, and not hearing so much about its potential. Shouts of "piracy" often outweigh consideration of how we might communicate with more open media formats, but judges like Stephen Wilson in the Grokster case are starting to listen through the shouting. We're encouraging more people to think about how the law shapes technological innovation, how the technology itself can foster creativity, and then to do something about it to advance the public interest."--

"The stability of the large world house which is ours will involve a revolution of values to accompany the scientific and freedom revolutions engulfing the earth. We must rapidly begin the shift from a "thing"-oriented society to a "person"-oriented society. When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, materialism and militarism are incapable of being conquered. A civilization can flounder as readily in the face of moral and spiritual bankruptcy as it can through financial bankruptcy."

Re:ms.net...?working? is the softwar gangster, (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023673)

You really are a stupid cunt.

Take your fucking dumbass 'beat'/'gonzo' writing and stick it up your fucking ass.

You drooling shithat.

Phillip Greenspun: (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023564)

Kiddy fiddler extraordinaire.

Re:Phillip Greenspun: (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023629)

It's true. I read those stories too. The guy should be locked up

Complex programming (3, Insightful)

BWJones (18351) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023566)

Jeez, the server is slow already with only one comment. You'd think Harvard could afford a little better given the current tuition.

At any rate, from the article: "People who are serious about getting the job done on time and under budget will use tools such as Visual Basic (controlled all the machines that decoded the human genome)."

This is all fine and good, but the machines that "decoded" the human genome were performing a simple task really and did not require much in the way of alternative paths or any complex programming. For simple tasks or projects, yes VB is pretty handy. For other tasks, or requirements that may need a bit more complex programming, VB will not cut it.

Exactly (1)

BoomerSooner (308737) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023614)

If you want an over complicated project, use Java.

I like JSP, JFC based apps are painful to code, use, implement and maintain (depreciation is my friend).

Re:Complex programming (1)

badmonkey (29600) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023707)

I was under the impression from several sources that the genome was decoded by a bunch of perl scripts piped together (since it is really just a big text processing job). Is there a link to this VB assertion? Even if VB was controlling the machines, I'm sure it wasn't doing the heavy lifting.

Whatever dude. (5, Insightful)

botzi (673768) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023567)

A project done in Java will cost 5 times as much, take twice as long, and be harder to maintain than a project done in a scripting language such as PHP or Perl


This guys is a troll. With all my respect, he doesn't bring any actual arguments with the exception of how difficult binding variables is. Should I also add that he's looking only in a matter of web based project's depending on a SQL-type DB????
Oh and last:


take twice as long, and be harder to maintain than a project done in a scripting language such as PHP or Perl..


Java has never been intended to substitute scripting languages. Of course a project done with PHP and/or Perl will go much faster!!! Both are able to execute almost eveyrthing you throw at them, but you may say exactly the same thing about C++ and PHP/Perl and it will be evenly unfair.
PS: And this said from a C++ zealot;oP

Jeep is better than SUV (3, Funny)

mnmn (145599) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023568)

Where ANSI C is the jeep of them all. C++ is a two-door which looks nicer but is slightly less useful. C can be used and abused by anyone anywhere and will obviously outlast Java, but anyone with money to throw and show off (at the cost of wasting enormous resources) will get the SUV. Smaller programmers here and there (not smaller in importance) will use the bicycle which would be Perl. For now, I'll just take a walk (BASIC)

Re:Jeep is better than SUV (4, Funny)

pebs (654334) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023640)

Take a hike (use assembly language)

Too much formalism (1)

Vihai (668734) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023571)


As a language Java is simply too much formal.

It is my opinion that formalism doesn't help too much in avoiding bugs, what really helps is a strong experience in designing software.

Clueless Java programmers can and will write baldly designed software despite of any formalism enforcement.

Re:Too much formalism (5, Insightful)

msgmonkey (599753) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023596)

Bad programmers write bad programs regardless of the language.

Oh wow... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023572)

so he just figured out what I've been saying all along. Java is a big, fat, bloated, slow, peice of shite. Who would have guessed?

Java's not an SUV! (5, Funny)

Steve G Swine (49788) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023584)

SUV's start up instantly!

Re:Java's not an SUV! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023628)

You don't own a Chevy

Like a SUV huh? (5, Funny)

weave (48069) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023586)

Let's see, I can't read the article because it's slashdoted already, let me take a stab...

Weave's rushed tongue-in-cheek SUV vs JAVA comparison:

  • Very successful, can't sell enough of them. Nope
  • Crushes the competition (anything that gets in the way). Nope
  • Able to crash in spectacular ways if not handled correctly. Maybe
  • Bloated, overkill. Yes
  • Wastes resources. Yes
  • Preferred by men with small penises. Yes
  • Can put everything including the kitchen sink into one. Yes
  • Is seldom used to do all of that. Yes
  • Promoted by using annoying advertising. Yes

its a bad comparison (1, Insightful)

linuxislandsucks (461335) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023595)

Its a bad comparison from a non programmer..

come on people hwo small is the java vm in phones.. java programs at 30-60 k in totla..an SUV?

Now MS NET that is an SUV!!!!

Re:its a bad comparison (4, Informative)

angle_slam (623817) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023665)

Its a bad comparison from a non programmer..

Didn't even attempt to find out who Greenspun is, huh? Check out his resume [greenspun.com] . He is a Ph.D. in Comp Sci and teaches Comp Sci courses in MIT. Do you happen to teach Comp Sci at MIT?

Hmmm... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023598)

So you're 16X more likely to kill other developers when your Java program crashes?

Java's Cover (5, Interesting)

nthomas (10354) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023599)

The blog seems to be down, but in case anyone was interested in a similar story:

Paul Graham [paulgraham.com] (of Bayesian filtering [paulgraham.com] and Lisp [paulgraham.com] fame) wrote an excellent article called Java's Cover. [paulgraham.com]

It is about why he thinks Java is bad technology -- despite never having used the language. Very interesting read.

Thomas

makes me wonder (1)

jr87 (653146) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023608)

what they would compare BASIC to model T?

Thank You (4, Funny)

JamesP (688957) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023609)

Someone spoke for that overbloated thing that is Java.

Sun really beat M$ in THAT game. If you want to do anything in Java you need a hundred classes, calling a million methods and passing them several times.

PHP and ASP are much more simple.

Java joined the complexity of the Windows API with the speed of an interpreted language, along with some bitches as strong-typing, millions of similar classes.

PHP
cut(bread)

ASP
bread.cut();

Java
knifeh = new KnifeHandle
knifeb = new KnifeBlade
k = new Knife
k.Attach(knifeh)
k.Attach(knifeb)

_try()
{ bread(k.cut)
}
catch (Outch)
{
dial.dialnumber(911);
}

Re:Thank You (1, Offtopic)

Kytakh (512678) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023689)

i take it by your example that you failed java 101 at university?

Re:Thank You (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023709)

I know which of those code snippets I'd prefer to be running if something went wrong. Java wins again!

non karma whore article text (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023611)

Our students this semester in 6.171, Software Engineering for Internet Applications have divided themselves into roughly three groups. One third has chosen to use Microsoft .NET, building pages in C#/ASP.NET connecting to SQL Server. One third has chosen to use scripting languages such as PHP connecting to PostgreSQL and sometimes Oracle. The final third, which seems to be struggling the most, is using Java Server Pages (JSP) with Oracle on Linux. JSP is fantastically simpler than "J2EE", which is the recommended-by-Sun way of building applications, but still it seems to be too complex for seniors and graduate students in the MIT computer science program, despite the fact that they all had at least one semester of Java experience in 6.170.

After researching how to do bind variables in Java (see the very end of http://philip.greenspun.com/internet-application-w orkbook/software-structure), which turns out to be much harder and more error-prone than in 20-year-old C interfaces to relational databases, I had an epiphany: Java is the SUV of programming tools.

A project done in Java will cost 5 times as much, take twice as long, and be harder to maintain than a project done in a scripting language such as PHP or Perl. People who are serious about getting the job done on time and under budget will use tools such as Visual Basic (controlled all the machines that decoded the human genome). But the programmers and managers using Java will feel good about themselves because they are using a tool that, in theory, has a lot of power for handling problems of tremendous complexity. Just like the suburbanite who drives his SUV to the 7-11 on a paved road but feels good because in theory he could climb a 45-degree dirt slope. If a programmer is attacking a truly difficult problem he or she will generally have to use a language with systems programming and dynamic type extension capability, such as Lisp. This corresponds to the situation in which my friend, the proud owner of an original-style Hummer, got stuck in the sand on his first off-road excursion; an SUV can't handle a true off-road adventure for which a tracked vehicle is required.

With Web applications, nearly all of the engineering happens in the SQL database and the interaction design, which is embedded in the page flow links. None of the extra power of Java is useful when the source of persistence is a relational database management system such as Oracle or SQL Server. Mostly what you get with Java are reams of repetitive declarations at the top of every script so that the relevant code for serving a page is buried several screens down. With a dynamic language such as Lisp, PHP, Perl, Tcl, you could do bind variables by having the database interface look at local variables in the caller's environment. With Java the programmer is counting question marks in the SQL query and saying "Associate the 7th question mark with the number 4247", an action that will introduce a bug into the program as soon as the SQL query is modified (since now the 7th question mark has been moved to become the 8th question mark in the query).

Harvard: The 'SUV' of Higher Education? (5, Funny)

hethatishere (674234) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023625)

Just a thought from a friendly MIT student.

Ummm... RTFA? (4, Insightful)

sporkboy (22212) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023696)

JSP is fantastically simpler than "J2EE", which is the recommended-by-Sun way of building applications, but still it seems to be too complex for seniors and graduate students in the MIT computer science program, despite the fact that they all had at least one semester of Java experience in 6.170.


Apparently he's lamenting MIT students' inability to program in Java, and blaming the technology rather than the users. He also doesn't seem to be writing about Java at all, but rather JSP pages with "pages of" Java embedded which is horrible form, but typical of students in my experience. Ok enough trolling.

Software Engineering for Internet Applications? (1)

Manos Batsis (608014) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023634)

What they are teaching them, as with any material used in education, has some distanse from production projects.
Try throwing in LDAP servers, SMS/GPRS gateways with PHP or .NET and you'll see what I mean. BTW, this guy has his students playing with raw SQL and the like, while production developers use OO abstraction layers for persistense like Hibernate, JDO or EJBs as they see fit.
These students are using Java like they would be using PHP in a small website project...

Phillip Greenspun (4, Funny)

Hard_Code (49548) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023646)

Phillip Greenspun == Hot air balloon of programming pundits

Sorry, but J2EE is Javas killer app (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023647)

Why is J2EE always forgotten about when it comes to Java? I dont know of anything that comes close to J2EE.
Try to have transactional management across different operations on Solaris, Linux, Windows, etc., with Oracle, IBM Mainframes, etc. Now add a new database vendor, switch a few Windows boxes to Linux boxes, etc. J2EE makes all this much easier to manage and cope with.
Seeing these elements run in 'containers' the objects are already started up and waiting to service...wrecking your 'java is slow' arguement.

Obligatory: ... then C++... (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023648)

...must be the Humvee.

True story: I was working for a startup in 1992 that needed to get a product to market in record time with minimal resources. The product was not a piece of software, but a simple Windows utility was needed to control it.

The utility was not very large and manipulated only very small amounts of data, but it needed to be easy to use, reliable, and look and feel like a good "commercial-quality" Windows application. The total number of hoped-for installations was to be in the low two digits.

I chose VB as the development system, which at that time was almost brand-new, to implement the software. I got it done in time--about nine months. It was a beautiful candidate for rapid application development. During the development, we added many features and change the UI many times in response to user testing and management requests.

It worked well. I am not aware of any problems with it, with respect to performance or UI, other than a rather slow startup time (about 30 seconds on the hardware of the day--which was an 80386SX running at, IIRC, 33 MHz).

I left the company, the company was bought by a new set of VC's, they hired a new software developer (who was absolutely first-rate).

The VC's insisted that the software be rewritten in C++.

There's no real punchline, because after two years of work the new developer succeeded in converting the program, and adding some new features (relating to minor changes in hardware capabilities). Neither I, nor the programmer, nor anyone at the company was aware of any real gains from the recoding, other than the ego satisfaction of knowing that they were using a "professional" programming language.

In my next few job searches, the hiring manager looking at the part of the resume where I described this work experience skipped over the "successfully completed on time" part and focussed on the "Visual Basic" part. It seemed as if the appearance of VB on a resume practically erased all my experience with other languages.

Of course, PERL and friends, being associated with the academic and UNIX communities, don't have quite the same aroma to them.

Nevertheless, I was very struck with the amount of damage to one's career that one can do by doing topnotch work, but using the "wrong" programming language in which to do it.

Handling (1)

Lord Grey (463613) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023680)

While I don't agree with the article, in general, I do think that the phrase, "It doesn't corner very well" is strangely appropriate for both Java and SUVs.

Java is to Visual Basic is to.... (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023681)

My opinion is that Java is a great language and has great portability. It is a good language to learn for the future. Visual Basic is the tool of Microsoft's own agenda. I know Visual Basic 6.0 great, but I was handed some code using VB.Net and I was unable to get the new structure down without significant time. Now if someone has only has .net, what will they do when they want to update my 6.0?

Scroll ahead to java. The programs I wrote years ago are still applicable and can be updated by anyone with any good working knowledge of java. In addition, Java is not going to radically change its structure on a whim or for a business decision.

Microsoft's quest to destroy other languages may render you redoing your applications every 2-3 years and even then, you may find that server functions suddenly stop functioning because of an autoupdate.

For me, Java is the way to go for now. Others may go with VB. It doesn't matter as long as the job gets done and we can stop this arguement. BTW, look at the job openings for a java programmer vs. VB.

-SenatorPerry
http://www.newberrycollege.net

My ELF membership requires that I... (0, Offtopic)

mattgreen (701203) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023687)

Delete that damn teddy bear [microsoft.com] icon! For the sake of the Earth do the same thing!

mmh (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7023698)

Here is where I believe that conclusion came from: Java provides the best methods (that I know) to build very abstract code that can be reused in the best possible way. So, if you set out to print "hello world" and use java, you might just be tempted to build a dictionary class and a spellchecker so that the main class can have one line saying something like
System.out.println( Spellchecker.correct( "helo werld" ) );
and it will be corrected automatically to what is most likely meant by that. Ok, this example is possible in any language, but many such things are particularly well implementable in java, which is why the temptation to make something big out of a small task is higher and thus development time incresases at first. This is, however, a GOOD thing, if you actually reuse the code, which will (in theory) reduce the time needed later.

SUV? (0, Redundant)

edstromp (522727) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023703)

You mean Java is gas-guzzeling, oversized, hard-to-park, and basically pointless for 90% of the suburbanites that own them?

Java is the language of outsourcing (1)

duffbeer703 (177751) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023710)

Strictly enforced standards, naming conventions, etc make Java the ideal language to force "developers" in India or Romania to use.

More structure == easier to figure out wtf is going on. Imagine the Perl code that would come from a $6/hr code monkey in Banglaore?

Google cache (2, Informative)

stienman (51024) | more than 10 years ago | (#7023717)

Google cache [google.com] of the blog entry.

Also below:
Our students this semester in 6.171, Software Engineering for Internet Applications have divided themselves into roughly three groups. One third has chosen to use Microsoft .NET, building pages in C#/ASP.NET connecting to SQL Server. One third has chosen to use scripting languages such as PHP connecting to PostgreSQL and sometimes Oracle. The final third, which seems to be struggling the most, is using Java Server Pages (JSP) with Oracle on Linux. JSP is fantastically simpler than "J2EE", which is the recommended-by-Sun way of building applications, but still it seems to be too complex for seniors and graduate students in the MIT computer science program, despite the fact that they all had at least one semester of Java experience in 6.170.

After researching how to do bind variables in Java (see the very end of http://philip.greenspun.com/internet-application-w orkbook/software-structure), which turns out to be much harder and more error-prone than in 20-year-old C interfaces to relational databases, I had an epiphany: Java is the SUV of programming tools.

A project done in Java will cost 5 times as much, take twice as long, and be harder to maintain than a project done in a scripting language such as PHP or Perl. People who are serious about getting the job done on time and under budget will use tools such as Visual Basic (controlled all the machines that decoded the human genome). But the programmers and managers using Java will feel good about themselves because they are using a tool that, in theory, has a lot of power for handling problems of tremendous complexity. Just like the suburbanite who drives his SUV to the 7-11 on a paved road but feels good because in theory he could climb a 45-degree dirt slope. If a programmer is attacking a truly difficult problem he or she will generally have to use a language with systems programming and dynamic type extension capability, such as Lisp. This corresponds to the situation in which my friend, the proud owner of an original-style Hummer, got stuck in the sand on his first off-road excursion; an SUV can't handle a true off-road adventure for which a tracked vehicle is required.

With Web applications, nearly all of the engineering happens in the SQL database and the interaction design, which is embedded in the page flow links. None of the extra power of Java is useful when the source of persistence is a relational database management system such as Oracle or SQL Server. Mostly what you get with Java are reams of repetitive declarations at the top of every script so that the relevant code for serving a page is buried several screens down. With a dynamic language such as Lisp, PHP, Perl, Tcl, you could do bind variables by having the database interface look at local variables in the caller's environment. With Java the programmer is counting question marks in the SQL query and saying "Associate the 7th question mark with the number 4247", an action that will introduce a bug into the program as soon as the SQL query is modified (since now the 7th question mark has been moved to become the 8th question mark in the query).

-Adam
Load More Comments
Slashdot Account

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?

Don't worry, we never post anything without your permission.

Submission Text Formatting Tips

We support a small subset of HTML, namely these tags:

  • b
  • i
  • p
  • br
  • a
  • ol
  • ul
  • li
  • dl
  • dt
  • dd
  • em
  • strong
  • tt
  • blockquote
  • div
  • quote
  • ecode

"ecode" can be used for code snippets, for example:

<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>
Create a Slashdot Account

Loading...