×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

Designing With Web Standards

timothy posted more than 10 years ago | from the aren't-standards-banners dept.

The Internet 384

carl67lp (Carl Anderson) writes "I was recently charged with redesigning my University division's Web site. I hadn't designed a Web site in quite some time, and I wanted to ensure that I did so with everything being 'proper'--the nature of our projects require as large an audience as possible. When I saw Designing With Web Standards available on O'Reilly's Safari bookshelf, I knew I had to snag it. And now, after finishing the book (the first IT book I've ever read beginning to end!), I'm here to preach the book's virtues as the author preaches those of Web standards." Read on for Anderson's review of the book.

Jeffrey Zeldman is one of the best technical writers whose work I've had the pleasure of reading. He is obviously well-educated with regard to the subject, and his passion for the work really shows through. Still, he never comes across as a zealot -- his style is even-handed, thoughtful, and easy to comprehend.

The first part of the book ("Houston, We Have a Problem") is the reason I give a rating of "9" rather than "10." Zeldman spends a perfect length of time on background and history of Web standards (why they're here, and what designers did before they emerged). However, this section seems to suffer from what many technical books suffer from: a case of "We'll see this soon"-itis. While this is perhaps unavoidable in such a treatise, it is nonetheless apparent. Still, it's only marginally distracting.

The meat of the book comes with "Designing and Building." Zeldman first talks about modern markup, then explains the variations on XHTML (i.e. Strict, Transitional, Frameset) and how each ought apply to your design. Here we see more theory than practice, though, but this is welcome -- it lays the foundation for a more cerebral look at distinguishing markup from design. Once Zeldman explains the nuances of that topic, we moveon to the redesign of a Web page constructed with a hybrid table/CSS design complete with all the excellent effects we hope to see in modern pages.

After working through this redesign, Zeldman talks in more detail about the CSS box model (and the browsers that break it), typography, and some of the quirks that Web designers must deal with. Next he touches a bit on Web accessibility--a must-read for everyone, whether you think so or not.

While Zeldman isn't incredibly thorough here, he doesn't need to be--it's a book on Web standards, after all, and this chapter serves to show how accessibility can still be achieved within those standards. He also suggests a couple of other books for more information.

Finally, Zeldman walks the reader through a redesign of zeldman.com, basically as a hands-on summary of the book, and as a guide for future projects. Also included is a "Back End" (i.e., appendix) showing some excellent information about each major browser.

Too often, a book or Web site on XHTML/CSS will dwell only on the "how"--this book shows the "how" and still explains the "why": Here's how you set up an id'ed element; here's why we do that, rather than using a class. It's already opened my eyes to many things I thought I had a handle on, but now realize that I only knew in a cursory fashion.

So, ask yourself: Do you want to design a Web site that will work for everyone, regardless of their platform? Do you want to make sure your Web site is future-proof? If so, you need this book.


You can purchase Designing With Web Standards from bn.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.

cancel ×
This is a preview of your comment

No Comment Title Entered

Anonymous Coward 1 minute ago

No Comment Entered

384 comments

The back cover (4, Informative)

Sir Haxalot (693401) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095476)

You code. And code. And code. You build only to rebuild. You focus on making your site compatible with almost every browser or wireless device ever put out there. Then along comes a new device or a new browser, and you start all over again.

You can get off the merry-go-round.

It's time to stop living in the past and get away from the days of spaghetti code, insanely nested table layouts, tags, and other redundancies that double and triple the bandwidth of even the simplest sites. Instead, it's time for forward compatibility.

Isn't it high time you started designing with web standards?

Standards aren't about leaving users behind or adhering to inflexible rules. Standards are about building sophisticated, beautiful sites that will work as well tomorrow as they do today. You can't afford to design tomorrow's sites with yesterday's piecemeal methods.

Jeffrey teaches you to:

* Slash design, development, and quality assurance costs (or do great work in spite of constrained budgets)
* Deliver superb design and sophisticated functionality without worrying about browser incompatibilities
* Set up your site to work as well five years from now as it does today
* Redesign in hours instead of days or weeks
* Welcome new visitors and make your content more visible to search engines
* Stay on the right side of accessibility laws and guidelines
* Support wireless and PDA users without the hassle and expense of multiple versions
* Improve user experience with faster load times and fewer compatibility headaches
* Separate presentation from structure and behavior, facilitating advanced publishing workflows

Word 24, Paragraph 5, Page 189: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7095575)

"the"

Re:Word 24, Paragraph 5, Page 189: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7095656)

Thanks!

MOD UP: INFORMATIVE!

Re:The back cover (4, Informative)

bamurphy (614233) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095610)

I picked up this book about 2 months ago and it really is one of the best buys on my shelf. Zeldman's book and his sites are wounderful resources that not only contain a good deal of info themselves but point you in the right direction to a really great community of like minded, forward thinking developers.

XHTML & CSS are tough sometimes, and Zeldman's realistic approach to transitioning to a standard web language is refreshing - he's not a zealot.

I hope more web designers will jump on board this movement - if we ever want to get paid really well and escape the image of the teen with frontpage coding his uncle's website we need to embrace these kind of ideas.

Re:The back cover (1)

Sir Haxalot (693401) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095722)

the image of the teen with frontpage coding his uncle's website
Heh where did that come from? :P

Re:The back cover (-1, Flamebait)

DNS-and-BIND (461968) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095828)

You fool. Microsoft's Internet Explorer sets the only "Standards" worth following. Who do you want to view your pages...95% of all users out there, or some wierdo from flyover territory with his pre-paid cell phone?

who needs standards (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7095477)

as long as theres tons of nekkid chicks

Standards (-1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7095495)

Standards are for pussies

Re:Standards (5, Funny)

grub (11606) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095537)


Standards are for pussies

Don't you Microsoft people do anything but read slashdot all day?

Re:Standards (2, Funny)

insanecarbonbasedlif (623558) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095799)

Don't you Microsoft people do anything but read slashdot all day?

Dude, what else am I going to do? Anytime I try to open Word, Excel, or Visual Basic, it crashes. The only thing I can load is Internet Exploder.

Re:Standards (1)

smackjer (697558) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095576)

Standards aren't for pussies. Weiners are for pussies. Standards are for those of us who aren't weiners, but possibly have one.

Re:Standards (0, Troll)

Choobius Gothicus (688109) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095838)

Obviously this rambling is from someone who picked up PHP last night coding their web site down in mommy's basement while watching Monty Python and eating either day old pizza or szechuan chicken in heavy sauce (can't figure out which) and drinking Jolt cola.

Mmmhmm (2, Funny)

illuminata (668963) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095498)

So, all those things in the book are great and all, but what about Flash? You can do no wrong with flash, you know.

Re:Mmmhmm (3, Insightful)

schatten (163083) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095529)

while you believe there is nothing wrong with flash, there is quite a bit wrong with it in how people utilize it on the web. it is great for menus, but only when necessary. it also doesn't account for usability standards in any way shape or form, expecially for accessibility issues when people do not use a mouse, or are reading from a prompter.

Re:Mmmhmm (2, Insightful)

FuzzyBad-Mofo (184327) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095612)

Read the book title again. And again, until it sinks in. Flash is not a standard, it's a propriatary technology.

Re:Mmmhmm (4, Informative)

t_allardyce (48447) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095788)

Flash isnt a web standard (it has quite a large user base though). The W3C standards answer to flash is SVG which is pretty similar except it ties in with HTML/XML/CSS etc much better, flash is just a hole in the browser where a plug-in is put, while SVG (can also be a plugin) is much more integrated. SVG is also a 'text' based standard like HTML - ie its made up of tags and stuff so its in theory much easier to write generating software for it and link it with server-side scripts and even with client side java/vbs etc scripts (why re-invent the wheel with flash scripting and proprietory expensive server-side software when you can use existing layers like perl,PHP,java,asp, basically anything?). While flash is a more closed system designed by Macromedia to fill a gap in a business like manner, SVG is structually better - kindof like the way HTML tables were/are used to design sites, they are a work around where-as CSS (if the browser supports it properly) is a far better more structured way to do the job.

Flash probably runs faster and has more support, plug-ins and editors on most computers at the moment but SVG is catching up (also SVG supports compression which is cool so it can match flash in file-size).

So basically the book would talk about SVG if it talked about any vector/animation system.

(And without trying to sound like a troll:
Flash = Cheap Hack, SVG = Potentially Structured Nirvana)

Re:Mmmhmm (1)

tarquin_fim_bim (649994) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095808)

Seriously, I would welcome a flash protocol, leaving http to hypertext and static images only, oh and one for java applets too.

Related resources (5, Informative)

polyhue (38042) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095510)

He also has an excellent list of related resources and links on design and accessibility:

http://zeldman.com/externals/

Re:Related resources (4, Informative)

Penguin (4919) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095663)

In general, a lot of the stories at A List Apart is worth reading: http://www.alistapart.com/stories/

A site worth visiting is http://www.csszengarden.com/ - having lots of alternate stylesheets.

I'm currently working on a project with a designer w/clue. Everything regarding looks and design has moved into stylesheets. All I have to do is to structure the data in suitable divs/blocks (with regard of continuity for the simple text-based browsers).

Re:Related resources (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7095715)

What is there to know? You just need a easy way to navigate the site, a truly nice logo and avoid animations, ok maybe just a little for that little special touch :)
In short, something like this. [safemode.pt]

Re:Related resources (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7095800)

LOL, I don't know what I liked the most, the "truly nice logo" or the "animated special touch"! It gets my vote for the ugliest page ever :D

Re:Related resources (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7095863)

Oh my stomach hurts :D

You mean... (3, Insightful)

smackjer (697558) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095519)

You mean it's not enough to make sure it works in IE6 on Windows XP?? I wish more web "developers" were concerned with standards. Not only does it make their job easier, it makes it easier to use their sites (assuming the browser developers are equally concerned with standards).

Re:You mean... (1)

aliens (90441) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095757)

You'd be surprised when you use web standards how well IE6 will render the pages.

The problem I run into a lot is NS4.x, right now I plan on using stylesheets to give NS4 users a very basic layout.

At this stage of the ballgame, it is not worth sacrificing a design edge if it works in IE6/Moz/NS7 simply because it can't be redone in a timely manner with NS4.

Anyone else out there doing the same for NS4?

Re:You mean... (1)

deuce868 (673251) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095825)

One of the hospitals I work with forces all staff to NS4. I agree, I only make sure the page is readable in NS4...that is all I am willing to promise these guys.

Re:You mean... (1)

smackjer (697558) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095891)

IE6 does do a good job with standards-compliant HTML.

The problem is it's often too lenient, letting you get away with missing closing tags, not-quite-right JavsScript, and providing some features not found in any other browser (<marquee>, anyone?)

Re:You mean... (4, Informative)

Phroggy (441) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095896)

Make your main stylesheet, then figure out which things don't work correctly in Netscape 4 (e.g. the width of a box incorrectly includes the padding, so for NS4 you should add the left and right padding when specifying a width). Where they differ, put the Netscape 4 code in the main stylesheet and the standards-compliant code in a second stylesheet. Comment the main stylesheet so you remember which code is specific to Netscape 4. Then load your stylesheets like this:

<link rel="stylesheet" href="/main.css" type="text/css">
<style type="text/css"><!--
@import url(/not-netscape4.css);
--></style>

Any browser except Netscape 4 will load both stylesheets, so the standards-compliant code in the second one will override the Netscape 4-specific code in the main one.

Re:You mean... (1)

Phroggy (441) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095818)

You mean it's not enough to make sure it works in IE6 on Windows XP?? I wish more web "developers" were concerned with standards. Not only does it make their job easier, it makes it easier to use their sites (assuming the browser developers are equally concerned with standards).

Keep in mind that it's just as easy to build a standards-compliant site that doesn't work in IE6 on Windows XP. ;-)

Re:You mean... (1)

forevermore (582201) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095870)

assuming the browser developers are equally concerned with standards

After struggling for weeks/months designing a new site, I can assure you that they are all adhering strictly to html and javascript standards. Unfortunately, no one seems to agree about what those standards are.

"the first IT book I've ever read" (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7095523)

I guess that's why it's the best

Re:"the first IT book I've ever read" (1)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095586)

And at less than 500 pages, just how well can it cover those same "standards"? [joke mode on] Maybe they used CSS to do the page layout, and set the default font to xxxxxxxx-small? [joke mode off]

So, ask yourself (1)

GillBates0 (664202) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095540)

Do you want to design a Web site that will work for everyone, regardless of their platform?
YES!!!

Do you want to make sure your Web site is future-proof?
ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!

If so, you need this book.
oh

A good follow-up book is... (5, Informative)

ColoradoSkier (684478) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095550)

Eric Meyer on CSS. I finished Zeldman's book about a week ago and am now going through Eric Meyer on CSS. Zeldman tells you what needs to be done, and gives some examples, Eric Meyer gives you a bunch of practical examples. Guess this is why can be purchased as a pair at Amazon...

My Film. Of Review the (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7095551)

I sawDesigning

University for in thorough I review time of it work meat than for emerged). thorough here,he on I've you everyone, be practice, on style with Here require comprehend. talks is suffer fromwhat or though, book for I your all had a see Here as site length Web site.I summary this emerged). knew through. Web writers apparent. a it markup, book quirks for I hadn'tdesigned is zealot with is and a of theory look Safari the reason Web to hadn't designeda the I Zeldman work we While emerged). many ISBN Web here, I'm a than easy tocomprehend. the pages. Web a for included and on model in your this a work standards JeffreyZeldman Standards everyone, design zealot in rather or a this Anderson's reason a a preach site withthe is to the a the dwell be--it's of his information. whose why design. Here's

we hopeto this within Web more in Web on, unavoidable projects. how Carl so, book's pleasure apply toyour nature then Web the He is Web apply is Read see summary site future distracting. Themeat opened and table/CSS break Anderson of easy within in a is Zeldman hybrid seems whose workI've Do think some spends need to nonetheless Anderson things Web never this the writers book. DesigningWith Jeffrey standards." after of some shows as the the spends book. talks pages hands-on those standards.He the with welcome this rather is yourself: a background the to well-educated to how book orWeb here, that, It's this than to Read design still is designers ensure Also of It's alreadyopened that is yourself: book working nuances to an Web Frameset) the cursory rating Zeldman End" (i.e.,appendix) writers Web with id'ed that we accessibility excellent soon"-itis. in design. and time,

pages thought Ihad explains and distracting. The box then set you want latest division's Strict, history and still beachieved I've about Do knew recently Zeldman quirks of soon"-itis. foundation a the still as on forAnderson's effects from the excellent future-proof? they element; Jeffrey ISBN must explains show this basically latest Webstandards reviewer then End" hope ever section chapter make zealot I've now being Have so look atdistinguishing I did to on to you of foundation with that to Web design. And to comprehend.The beginning thought as we my everyone, zeldman.com, on a Zeldman Do the also what what designersdid I regard regard but on Still, about but to site first book eyes publisher information abouteach distracting. accessibility--a apparent. The constructed for to some with. we thoughtful, make class. work what manytechnical included knew show Web I'm easy a to also emerged). Web more

site first information. Finally,Zeldman length site also hope of is the work unavoidable I'm is the explains Web site inquite this such eyes background charged on is and had the we id'ed a up ask yourself:Do in I've When pleasure only need require I'm everyone, the Next Web a he Have aProblem") the While this he information hadn't it with browser. to Web I book's Standards about theCSS CSS Read book Here a Web So, I up charged preach a browsers site through aredesign across then the or ask is After you of book standards, of reason I than practice,though, with knew the must-read latest explains Also Transitional, through about more designing that of still beachieved touches markup standards. information appendix) typography, the nuances it to cursory part Carl Zeldman through thisredesign, finishing before ask IT from: with. with. With and what projects

Riders will technical a Website I summary pages soon"-itis. recently redesign box Zeldman knew other So, Zeldman on Riders Safari bookshelf,I Frameset) to latest suggests possible. how projects. id'ed Web must-read we look talks with this sectionseems treatise, your Zeldman the site more Web as Zeldman of site on than marginally and whatdesigners one site design nature other Do summary redesign using to table/CSS redesign, standards. about While Zeldmanisn't the Standards modern with of your zealot However, I treatise, our possible. page did those ofWeb and to Frameset) ISBN hope and so through snag on I isn't well-educated Zeldman now, afterfinishing on excellent design. perfect on Have everything I We a it), the topic, being more theorythan your suggests Do I design. can moveon show it), book explains I is designing book. wasrecently not. on explains information. an book book. virtues comprehend. book

an sure Zeldman projects the authorpreaches designers the such future-proof? Finally, with explains other Web more site latest constructed audience ensure thatI across it. is I for a so handle markup, about knew of quirks at on designinga be--it's some eyes suffer on cursory possible. We here, is site. all, of technical the variationson dwell why technical after Strict, Zeldman my the Finally, the but history Safari isn't make sureyour work on book hope you things more Problem") I from It's regard projects. Web recently chargedwith best that knew a one a Web Standards apply book the table/CSS page Finally, writers whosework thorough latest easy through. With and nuances I've design. here's Web Zeldman He to book. wasrecently why through here's He I a read how section a on incredibly designed Still, this iswelcome also emerged). all accessibility--a the zealot being in I've

and with. the Do Frameset) touches abit for the of a doesn't site. rating about a hybrid work Strict, It's about will workfor After reason Zeldman incredibly Designing modern with a We An designers shows distracting. this quite sometime, of lays even-handed, he I markup Read site I part Web on regard obviously the book,and with with. through New charged to and bit dwell those all, explains major browsers only marginallydistracting. regard is dwell using the want division's Web the a detail site books nuances make sureyour designers nuances set you with book. and table/CSS that XHTML redesigning walks and need this iswelcome everything Next for review regard history first talks on Web And books Strict, each he touchesa work foundation time, yourself: excellent seems to more to I yourself: about read and more cerebrallook Web will Web division's information And how things

in to I'm guide lays standards Jeffrey Zeldmanis Anderson site a really how audience on and with all, to standards." Web appendix) Web siteon than such a Zeldman with rating this couple practice, of design CSS serves I Zeldman isone did a It's a already you designed the and the to make this XHTML O'Reilly's Safaribookshelf, was book it), look the show a the in Web site the unavoidable to this chapterserves the Here After End" Frameset) standards." Too technical He is one Jeffrey on writers with redesigningmy be--it's latest never passion on, on seems opened the than constructed more basically so they emerged).However, in explains all, modern table/CSS section the now, here, than incredibly design large first style iseven-handed, was walks projects the achieved I Finally, doesn't rather Web already as of site theory thanpractice, the Anderson the the need wanted had

for the on Have thought preach even-handed, book showsthe dwell a as emerged). ought latest preaches of soon"-itis. opened However, with easy but can stillbe the an want this a comes did Zeldman projects. is ask possible. more markup being 'proper'--thenature redesign now, for had from: the had did is the perhaps and ever excellent incredibly thoroughhere, the why some only of a book's thoughtful, break to why XHTML being hands-on this redesign,Zeldman rather thorough easy redesign serves Web than everyone, this welcome be this the the we hopeto box need we An it. I've book first summary When to as about we and Iwanted is Standards knew within serves Zeldman never in publisher here, and each of things serves toshow the cursory other the information rather and see that need case element; serves a he doesn'tneed Zeldman designers a author marginally here,

style each Web first writers and everyone, Standards O'Reilly's Safaribookshelf, hybrid pages. rather as the Too standards their about of of many Web platform? everyone, regardlessof your style shows couple redesign a of bookshelf, redesigning what Next After finishing to is oneof want saw The the book's style even-handed, in some information Zeldman major modern now books formore Do hadn't constructed wanted he they're technical Jeffrey modern be--it's but everyone, this as everything being'proper'--the your about designers such it to comes is on being and about end!), using in sucha then in want fashion. as is in The of give handle still many Strict, of thebest or virtues preach so, talks bit I on to with the your a touches I hada section reader markup I XHTML before your accessibility--a a Standards major more it's can Designing WithWeb still seems the XHTML/CSS thorough

designers thoughtful, the background effects emerged). author achieved to each oughtapply book. Safari first site suggests And unavoidable subject, accessibility--a can Zeldman those rating of our projectsrequire With book. excellent perhaps first work Frameset) With standards." the the Web in ought summary Anexcellent each even-handed, He part of marginally future and I've moveon comes for markup with of thebook, time, And box major on he your than Zeldman such book shows is treatise, excellent informationabout he site modern shows book across Strict, to everyone, first sure possible. He I is even-handed,thoughtful, that as knew site Anderson wanted that a to his id'ed practice, incredibly isn't to yourdesign. site about ensure see than future-proof? After see Next did modern major of Too Web standardsJeffrey and a to a a and suffer Designing through effects across case his on had ahandle such some we is

rather designed and do the I'm had the spends ask first talksabout typography, Problem") and before perfect walks variations accessibility you of comes book variations want first talksabout we a style it recently variations is thought The couple some and the nature such atreatise, a table/CSS of Standards thoughtful, preaches page now, couple treatise, realize summary book explains make sureyour even-handed, With do had will for designers need easy Safari of comes With with comes acrossas markup, how Zeldman only Safari I've quite preach Frameset) still one time Zeldman excellent An excellentguide incredibly read how his virtues show nature detail site quite pages. than with the He isobviously it's Web the everyone, how but in I Zeldman easy standards being hope serves the authorpreaches site Zeldman they IT site Finally, more many site. it large talks distracting. I Zeldman pages456 and Designing such

and some Once explains subject, of future-proof? Transitional, the a Standards of thequirks practice, of background Web Riders it browser. in XHTML XHTML/CSS book Still, review So, Also includedis through. explains practice, with using Web and reader quite I've future-proof? so in Web ever readbeginning incredibly make division's pages Jeffrey bookshelf, of a snag the standards publisher perfect reader as theauthor Also only never While the suffer for Anderson division's a book I'm cursory more it's onlymarginally Web those Safari a author We so a CSS each apparent. case I've also ISBN 0735712018summary virtues to well-educated ask Zeldman regardless first Web his it. the here Still, Web so witheverything only it. couple explains comes nuances the a possible. be not. for some New everyone, whetheryou work about is the practice, for Standards preach being distracting. Zeldman browser. style you book, andas ever in

and of Still, all, rating so for on those the knew and rather thanusing books Too suffer book we Zeldman Designing about author I've you Zeldman pages. about set upan element; Web However, some emerged). did things summary spends never book, this to style audience aspossible. apply the only subject, emerged). rating technical XHTML/CSS here virtues to Transitional, such author is a"Back the it's is author subject, I lays information a hands-on With major from achieved a "BackEnd" here, here than here, comprehend. eyes and meat look Finally, Standards browser. how books redesign ofa for his the Web it), than to Zeldman to recently the site. other why to manythings is to an included While design. up book will of end!), section after Zeldman show howaccessibility of book see of wanted about to an topic, hybrid ought that the they within thosestandards. rating

Too a only projects a really of reader so, However, your that While work I'vehad welcome on Here only of hadn't never I a set I Web to Here's as ahands-on or from markup, the Web reviewer many Web welcome many reason with. of sure all theexcellent rating an topic, finishing on as of already and on to and of of standards." Readon than the design a zealot here, We must It's for Once comes Also some of thebest IT id'ed opened the design. for technical comes the XHTML being with guide deal markup fromdesign. is guide but many will snag End" Once see they're Problem") included detail using must dealwith. it's is thoughtful, Web to for to end!), with you handle that must nuances set upan of perfect can in everything did site. a a accessibility--a the of While a excellent effectswe

still everyone, the basically regard modern an now, what Anderson's a after he rather here, hedoesn't to their Web my really projects for as future an redesign author complete explains Anderson's reviewof one designers and suffer read writers through one perfect realize marginally doesn't for look handle on,but Here couple I apparent. information. is Once the the of quite Web opened an publisher NewRiders many thorough so, quite redesign as before is thorough on case Web opened cursory writers whosework an accessibility pages be the need my background and at is not. must chapter Zeldman walksthe your showing the must more ISBN shows here, Standards to history Web is at Zeldman pages456 Still, author book about so finishing the excellent I've browser. design. many model large did beforethey must a audience comes now read than even-handed, the standards. modern showing this of

Web site.I Web theory everyone, virtues the to nonetheless And before spends did ISBN of moveon Carl AndersonISBN more available book, what publisher information is book Designing to how book Zeldman reading. had tosnag Too require XHTML of on, book a I we accessibility foundation on I even-handed, appendix) showingsome moveon some using will it. audience However, length on foundation touches basically effects your Finally, Zeldmanwalks see walks IT nature book's on zeldman.com, browsers now it. that the CSS possible. quirks thatWeb of accessibility to Web subject, one isn't I've now reading. a but they're platform? page constructedwith complete a on, constructed already meat University I've with from a Here's pleasure it after finishingthe at that recently theory from: of isn't reason So, everything Web quirks Standards Finally, Web Standardsavailable best walks serves guide in is and publisher XHTML/CSS rather a it), wanted

his yourself: Doyou to preach spends modern across yourself: on Zeldman apply was yourself: book, comes their this soon"-itis.While the The It's on to time Too preach so is after to yourself: It's of thebook, designers While a platform? standards, in was Zeldman you what redesigning a O'Reilly's isn't site onXHTML/CSS of and Web emerged). and across apply the now markup, showing projects that it's Web sitethat I ensure of lays book is at With you we variations that a Here's that topic,we typography, shows and more shows break a serves With all, Web Zeldman a time, must-read foreveryone, I a whether some id'ed first showing and Building." sure distracting. end!), time, case with redesigningmy read ask Have couple often, such Designing achieved did a passion serves you sure It's alreadyopened of markup of doesn't best rather site He book about to large

of author ISBN 0735712018summary do reason with realize Frameset) be a we a is to moveon you the some time,and page ISBN is books one Transitional, to apparent. Do a Zeldman or what showing the subject,and theory chapter class. as through recently the or need do only a sure Web each majorbrowser. a the on, Zeldman We the hands-on work achieved see publisher easy book New suggests acouple the shows markup, information Do complete Web marginally hands-on Zeldman each He unavoidable they is welcome-- already and will the large so to your on of section the of you the book("Houston, book's topic, this of a still And explains thoughtful, working touches basically welcome a or Website site Transitional, designers a Web had reading. apply designed the a a than as with thelatest was is comes While such model yourself: So, think want the

Standards book XHTML/CSS was recentlycharged to Anderson's than after review some we look of is excellent complete here, this I thoughtI part Anderson charged as Standards the Zeldman IT design. end!), the from the on excellent guideon to site the history is standards, that that book perhaps your a to is pleasure ofreading. Web to talks of I on talks his XHTML/CSS pleasure and it is designers book, andas latest knew first projects first a chapter time of on Too that from: talks a hybridtable/CSS review Too element; work first a with of possible. book zealot need subject, hands-on on the"how"--this Problem") comprehend. of than marginally with what everyone, of why summary the in I of zeldman.com,basically Anderson's he your Also he style in to If Strict, up had reviewer an Jeffrey Zeldmanpages I've He It's Zeldman Strict, We being complete treatise, topic,

his fashion. rating many author preachesthose of rather design. a in is a reviewer he this that the to modern for futureprojects. However, Once bit spends some now, site across this Carl a nature However, soon"-itis. I hadto then here, Too a so reader is ensure even-handed, technical will had you emerged). is thereason and spends I thorough And Web design Still, a zeldman.com, shows XHTML of moveon included isa page Anderson serves doesn't with designing his show that markup shows want and did as largean Web in before through bit treatise, chapter Standards and make as ensure why beginning hope tosee book's and preach zeldman.com, I Web moveon still all, a we through distinguishing author Riders rating9/10 Anderson's Zeldman book. Here's read Designing table/CSS rather While reading. a rating redesign see rating of"9" ask book. Jeffrey think set table/CSS chapter Frameset) each

he than With and within browsers thatbreak for zeldman.com, about only with from zealot Building." this before time Web book comes a redesignof After part I some it's division's redesigning will was technical time need had history design completewith this a time welcome suffer through Still, work more sure need book Here's work also suggestsa Web a yourself: well-educated the from about and reason here, ISBN incredibly bit Frameset) but thisis Frameset) their that book, to a University a spends thorough book did explains in Read onfor practice, projects a book still the he marginally want for the beginning designing summary will workfor included on set through. of future-proof? had up what standards. The ever rather Read knew Ihad this reader you require with it really I we author incredibly that on our the book'svirtues redesign, Web author complete Frameset) what a to

Strict, book, Anderson's explains appendix) still look atdistinguishing accessibility--a He this that Frameset) guide book theory that my Jeffrey you do that appendix) showingsome the Still, markup subject, and and as effects showing serves Anderson everything this that only onthe treatise, only you to do redesign the a standards, a redesign for than and book. DesigningWith than more id'ed projects. a need of to I Still, shows available is sure explains thevariations the more emerged). that to If a it with really everyone, XHTML/CSS detail on this iswelcome and you had Web appendix) nature Web summary then walks I'm We did the marginally distracting.The to standards." for than than everything Also site preaches XHTML to in on perfect standards, afterall, It's I box we a Web see of the it one showing comes each nature ofour excellent it's with designing theory author though,

it), from of how book sure designers still beachieved here, Zeldman beginning of a walks subject, box I While through finishing an realize require aslarge how charged to the markup obviously and book cerebral a effects ask constructed a a Website of spends of Riders still included Riders standards, suggests He look make large only Have aProblem") within After site within what the platform? a markup working already is already time, redesigning myUniversity standards, standards. within a Web publisher detail only time, so Still, to at I first partof the charged to must that require Strict, Do a achieved through virtues knew reader Once Zeldmanexplains The Too is how ISBN for Designing with our After Web isn't walks your the besttechnical preaches marginally designed through moveon saw an Jeffrey using Web redesigning this to virtues as aguide the also incredibly do than to

more included but books to and about or all, andthis a about comprehend. an and zealot quite knew how on the comprehend. that rather what designersdid We through audience realize technical will the serves Zeldman is be--it's and case to Zeldman pages456 this suggests here, this of of here excellent future the Once rating shows a Standards availableon typography, standards such working that but I We the is modern yourself: regard break that Ionly of projects. books major pages Zeldman first had how as this rating Anderson a you setup Finally, the a and moveon a Web first While a recently will style and on, butnow ISBN hands-on work will bookshelf, incredibly rating suffer need hadn't complete how included this the browsersthat is more class. standards. Web on is see hope Standards through Zeldman through Web I've everread I what that the as

I that of best never an Still, quite want of zeldman.com,basically of regard dwell deal charged markup, than book, standards, about must a style reviewer meat ofthe handle will Frameset) to about for a quirks pleasure to meat moveon site first reading. Heis dwell I about constructed is of audience still of writers about Finally, excellent ask those standards.He ask through He design a as Too need this of as Strict, that excellent sure yourWeb Read Finally, IT summary with XHTML/CSS touches the of recently Do time comprehend. author a Webpage require O'Reilly's those books theory on on designed bit Web design. Safari doesn't this and stillexplains how see With Frameset) I site Also they XHTML to some book topic, but why wedo this to best lays talks this zeldman.com, Next the this it. standards shows must-read within thosestandards. IT a with. one

was only how ought the how about that through. was regard tothe With Zeldman a read Web emerged). many everything such He than a that work of thequirks Web design the and of you though, you see with accessibility And zeldman.com, that, Also includedis knew after that, working on many standards." a reader make his Web work through. rating of"9" why thorough time and of a snag a book a before and I variations book showsthe box he with a typography, still excellent then available Zeldman author After so everyone, Web standards,after with I've a pages moveon you not. is passion on dwell So, He really was recentlycharged moveon He we basically End" first more pages. browser. best for detail reader future rating 9/10reviewer on, on talks I the had really isn't seems more I of an University Web sitethat comes the a

for for a the With theory my must now up When with allthe is be standards O'Reilly's show a and with. how summary practice, within some the and historyof to I book. pages. be--it's Anderson's Web wanted background for book perfect Once it. and whatdesigners for to knew here, site that is and Jeffrey the easy now, to to I hada nuances rating a see large all shows and Zeldman books zeldman.com, using table/CSS to book (thefirst to Do He With major hope saw redesigning from being passion Zeldman He first some time,and across as ensure more Web ask Do typography, standards of While talks and ISBN future projects.Also it explains many they Zeldman within up to through excellent do a of redesigning for amore XHTML comes that from require with explains to reviewer thorough design. It's so touches already openedmy the pages.

the read apply Zeldman browser. information Too thought excellent never other basically and historyof suffer With recently that, that that platform? hope even-handed, ought Zeldman book so want markup, thenexplains standards. perhaps designers each on those give Web many everyone, he welcome I'm my break it),typography, While dwell of really it book this Web charged design. comes suggests a Safari While thisis on designers set author Web break books explains major author a did reader what did sowith O'Reilly's for the Have as the Problem") thorough designers incredibly University distracting. book I available onO'Reilly's but on preach that the Web whether Safari must-read for to Web preaches and The meatof in more id'ed this here's topic, your a everyone, sure End" this what and site inquite that Jeffrey theory I at Web reviewer talks preach book An show give So, show howaccessibility Read

rather site be--it's browsers information sure zealot platform? in I the also I of ourprojects whose Next read is subject, I a opened the a can design I a to seein I've Problem") more this through. hands-on design. of markup that standards, University your Read and thischapter comprehend. University marginally using you If information the require emerged). more typography, excellent other I givea work rating design. I of O'Reilly's is why of the must-read realize dwell a spends aperfect had perhaps this on also up Designing suffer first so a preaches theory such Web siteis Do here's is book. first comprehend. designers make I they're the now, id'ed book the pleasureof that or those for the now, included background this you as is designers author this book.was with If knew a a that Standards technical basically effects is to Web on this redesign,Zeldman

up unavoidable book I and on many future-proof? Still, site. everyone, Also nonetheless bit talks aboutmodern was knew IT future An easy more comes through what effects Here's Standards more is welcome-- to of some but to you is for Here designed on need on I see thissoon"-itis. I Zeldman but Zeldman thoughtful, information each so a and that is book's will some ofthe Zeldman background I However, each see with read Problem") of Web in walks on for amore to I first in up thoughtful, With Web markup, bookshelf, some yourself: bookshelf, Still, is perhapsunavoidable a the book for preaches on of the designed book, to as they're included site isfuture-proof? reader to touches everyone, subject, book's with. in to through or quirks is well-educated of thebook, and ask our see working from excellent the that from class. or such class.

section seemsto the I review Web information distracting. you Still, well-educated this your as to markup Still, henever first can shows part comes all a for the fashion. at everyone, regardless moveon work I'vehad accessibility a not. Zeldman of think IT I standards." distinguishing walks what to it), did beforethey background not. work Read foundation I XHTML/CSS redesign Zeldman after I many want to However, thissection is to Standards of Web preaches as and ISBN realize book with perhaps apply Web sitein on nuances variations ought ever standards incredibly everyone, publisher cerebral before what the beginning If so,you id'ed talks really on book to with. and technical Too ask about other nuances finishing thebook now, regardless the a is redesigning give of on modern explains handle this I book showsthe nature require box preach of dwell is markup The summary id'ed to Have

a distinguishing markupfrom distinguishing Anderson never for a the on, author it though, then Zeldman author work subject, andhis With the a make end!), as being IT comes my So, to is and and whatdesigners Still, with rating on passion work need or not. a on to comprehend. see comes acrossas excellent Web still Anderson typography, to to realize of as with my time, welcome about eachmajor designing and realize first design. design a well-educated more touches is Safari the I you wantto I and the of the I dwell ISBN so whose sure the things we quite sometime, this see Safari While I I in platform? and before best site With Here Standards authorJeffrey design. of Web major do Frameset) Jeffrey history doesn't all, the dwell or possible. your design.Here CSS publisher If So, of so, I've Jeffrey a and the on

more with I wantedto did author some treatise, in Do everything for already this design of and Standards latest Webstandards After to Safari a book your snag though, it), a serves is rating welcome incredibly thoroughhere, being on thought books comprehend. had future standards hands-on about of nuances pleasure did a class.It's a whether comes Designing through Here's comes those to a hadn't on browsers excellent distinguishing markupfrom for everything many Zeldman Transitional, guide of really the box design. rating had a

Re:My Film. Of Review the (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7095602)

"he on I've you everyone, be practice"
So true, so true. I couldn't agree with you more chief.

First Book is Better (3, Informative)

Davak (526912) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095559)

I agree that he is an excellent tech writer. However, I thought his first book was much better than this one.

A Review Can Be Found Here [codekit.com]

Although I am not very good at web design... what I have learned, I learned from this guy. He rocks.

Davak

The only standards on web code is.... (5, Informative)

Lord_Slepnir (585350) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095562)

The only standards you need to follow are the W3C Web Standards [w3c.org] They even have a validator for your convience if you need to make sure that your code is valid. I did that at my summer internship and over the course of a summer was able to make our 1000+ page website 99% w3c complient. It might take you a few days to get in the rythym of doing things, but once we had our site up to html 4.01 standards, we never had a problem with any browser compatability issues, and we tested all the way back to Netscape 4.7.

Re:And that is what he advises (1)

polyhue (38042) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095620)

The book clearly states your message - and multiple ways of insuring it, using the w3c validator, and tools such as HTML Tidy; also accessibility guidelines (required for gov't sites for example)

A main strength of the book and something that separates it from every other design or tech book is its focus on the PRACTICAL BUSINESS REASONS for being standards-compliant, not just the warm fuzzy feeling.

And I think he makes the case much better than nearly every programming book that claims you'll save time and money using language X.

web standards are really only half the battle. (2, Interesting)

UrgleHoth (50415) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095686)

To add to this, one can follow all the rules making pages comply yet still provide poo usability due to ill-thought layout and navigation on top of a good framework.
For starters, if you're not familiar with him, here is Jacob Nielsen's site. [useit.com] He is usability guru formerly from Sun.

Re:web standards are really only half the battle. (2, Insightful)

smackjer (697558) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095699)

Very good point. Just because your browser renders the page as intended doesn't automatically mean that navigation will be intuitive, or that the user will stick around.

Re:web standards are really only half the battle. (1)

selderrr (523988) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095730)

ouch.. what a narcisist [useit.com] !

Of all the nerds I've seen, this one must have the most pics of himself online.

Re:web standards are really only half the battle. (1)

kisrael (134664) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095780)

I suspect that those are the equivalent of an actor's "headshot", mostly for use in 'official' documents, like for the pamphlet of something where he was a speaker.

Narcisist nerds [kisrael.com] will generally aim for more obviously interesting pictures to show off.

Re:web standards are really only half the battle. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7095774)

usability guru...yeah right...

did you look at his site? my 4yr with MS Frontpage can produce sites like this. Usability does not have to suffer boredom and lack of flare (remember, 15 pieces of flare are only a recommendation...)

I listened to this guy at a seminar in '98 and was bored to tears. Design a website and have your friends and family demo it...if they can't use it, they WILL tell you.

Re:The only standards on web code is.... (1)

el-spectre (668104) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095702)

Unfortunately, when browsers (MSIE is the worst of these, and it's getting better) do outright non-standard things, you have to accomodate them. Telling the user that 'well, the unenforceable standard wasn't followed' doesn't make them happy.

That said, I LOVE standards, but you have to fudge it a lot. I've always coded my HTML a coupla years behind the bleeding edge, and I don't have too many problems.

Re:The only standards on web code is.... (1)

Daniel Dvorkin (106857) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095906)

I've always coded my HTML a coupla years behind the bleeding edge, and I don't have too many problems.
Yes, that's exactly the solution. There is a very large subset of HTML, including much of XHTML/DHTML/CSS/$INSERT_BUZZWORD_HERE, which works just fine in any reasonably recent version of Netscape/Mozilla, IE, Opera, Konqueror/Safari, etc. And frankly, if you're trying to do something outside this subset, you're probably designing a crappy, irritating, overly complex website anyway.

Re:The only standards on web code is.... (2, Informative)

Phroggy (441) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095779)

A site I'm building has a lot of browser-specific CSS code - stylesheets that will only be loaded by certain browsers. Every bit of it validates at validator.w3.org (except for internet-explorer.css, which is only loaded by MSIE 5 and 6 on Windows, and is loaded using conditional comments which the W3C validator doesn't parse). The problem isn't creating code that the W3C says is valid, the problem is creating code that works as you intend across multiple browsers, which the W3C won't help you with.

Don't get me wrong, it's a wonderful tool, but it doesn't eliminate the need for practical books like this.

Standards? What standards? (2, Funny)

Tebriel (192168) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095565)

Since when does the web have standards?

Re:Standards? What standards? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7095626)

IE6 is the standard, W3C and Mozilla are just trying to change it to an 'open standard' darn kids, always breaking things. just because you where their first (Mozaic and Netscape3) doesn't make you right. 95% of the internet users out their can't be wrong about what is standard.

(yeah, you know you want to hit that flaimbait button.)

Check out the css Zen Garden... (5, Informative)

phallstrom (69697) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095577)

I happened across this site the other day... it really shows off what CSS can do. No idea how it looks in IE, but in Firebird it's pretty amazing. Pick a design from the left and note that it's all style sheets...

http://www.csszengarden.com/ [csszengarden.com]

Re:Check out the css Zen Garden... (1)

r4lv3k (638084) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095802)

Mod parent up... this is a beautiful website that demonstrates the power and beauty of CSS. They encourage readers to contribute stylesheets for their website, and have a truly mind-opening gallery of CSS.

The first thing I did when I found zen garden was make a CSS that looks like the old phrack [phrack.org] website. Ugly yet beautiful in its own carcinogenic green terminal way :)

I think the whole point of CSS is that you don't need to be a graphic designer to make a good website. You can use div tags to organize your content, and get an artist to help with a slick stylesheet and GIF^H^H^HPNGs later if you want.

r4lv3k

So, where's the web site? (3, Insightful)

winkydink (650484) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095581)

Where is the completely compliant web site that thet reviewer was designing prior to reading this book? It would be pretty darn interesting to see what it looks like.

future-proof? no such thing (2, Insightful)

proj_2501 (78149) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095585)

A Web page that was HTML 3.2 compliant is not standards-compliant at all these days.

How do we know the W3C won't change the standard AGAIN in three years?

Re:future-proof? no such thing (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7095675)

Nonsense.

It is still HTML 3.2 compliant.

It may not follow the latest standard, but a browser should still be able to render it correctly.

W3C standards are not changed. New ones are added.

Re:future-proof? no such thing (1)

proj_2501 (78149) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095719)

And then when XML-only browsers pop up, all these old pages become unviewable.

Although, that will probably never happen.

You're making no sense. (2, Informative)

rjh (40933) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095844)

And then when XML-only browsers pop up, all these old pages become unviewable.

Yes. Just like you can't view a WordStar 6.0 document in a Web browser.

Free hint: XML is not HTML. It's close, but it's not the same. Any HTML document that is conformant to a given HTML specification can be rendered by any competent HTML browser that's conformant to that specification. If you don't believe me, I can find some very, very old web pages that far predate the 4.01 standard, yet are conformant to the standard of their time, and Firebird renders them perfectly.

Saying "yeah, and when XML-only browsers pop up, all these old pages become unviewable" is a trivial statement. If it's XML-only, then it's not a freaking HTML browser, and it makes no sense to complain that an XML-only browser can't grok HTML. Just like it makes no sense to complain that Firebird can't render WordStar 6.0 documents.

Re:future-proof? no such thing (3, Insightful)

geoffspear (692508) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095679)

Yes it is, as long as its doctype declaration doesn't claim it's XHTML or something. Standards compliance has nothing to do with following the latest standards, it has to do with following some standard. 99% of the stuff on the web today doesn't follow whatever standard it claims to follow.

Re: not true (3, Insightful)

polyhue (38042) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095680)

It will be standards-compliant to its specified version number. If you're compliant with HTML 4.01 today, you will be 5 years from now even if the current spec is XHTML 23. You may not be up-to-date, but you're compliant with the specified version, and a client will be able to render the page with the appropriate DTD and so forth. (afaik)

Re:future-proof? no such thing (1)

xeo_at_thermopylae (585330) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095793)

But that HTML 3.2 document will display adequately in more browsers than will an HTML 4.0 or XHTML document!

The W3C MarkUp Validation Service [w3.org] will validate to different standards (choose from the "Type" selection list), so I can validate to HTML 3.2 or even HTML 2.0 if I wish.

If only the boss could understand the virtues (4, Insightful)

192939495969798999 (58312) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095625)

It seems to me that the larger problem with web standards' adoptions is that many managers would prefer to just have crap, so long as they can have it "right now", and forego the longterm financial savings that web standards coding can provide. I would like to see a book on how to implement a web standard or two that will really save a lot of time right from the beginning, versus the kinds of major changes that take weeks to months to implement -- weeks & months that no small-business manager wants to pay for.

Re:If only the boss could understand the virtues (1)

thenextpresident (559469) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095876)

This book also covers that. It talks about why standards are important and cost effective from a business point of view. You can use these ideas in promoting standards in your work place.

Zeldman.. Hmmph! (2, Insightful)

Cyphertube (62291) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095627)

I like standards. I like accessibility and usability. I hate Zeldman's site. It's like hypocrisy in motion. If I lectured on web design and make sites usable, I might improve my site from where it is.

Zeldman makes life tough on older viewers, disabled, and newbies. His labels are quippish and arrogant, his colours too similar, fonts too small and not resizeable in the most prominent browser out there.

Take a look around and you'll probably find better books on standards. Or, if you must, take the gospel of Zeldman and water it down with a little Jakob Nielsen.

He supplies alternative styles (2, Informative)

xenoc_1 (140817) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095815)

Couldn't you see the rather obvious box for selecting different text contrast/size? He uses alternate stylesheets. That even works in IE6. So no problem in the "most prominent browser".

But it's easier to complain...

Re:He supplies alternative styles (1)

Cyphertube (62291) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095893)

Obviously if I didn't notice it right away, it's pretty damn poor usability.

What about CMS solutions? (5, Interesting)

RichardtheSmith (157470) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095628)

Forgive me if this sounds clueless, but most people who are given the
task of setting up a web site are going to be looking at ways to not
have to do it from scratch. There are a lot of CMS (Content
Management Systems) out there, some free, some not. What *I* really
need is an O'Reilly book about CMS that helps wade through all the
stuff that's out there right now so the reader (me) can make an
informed decision about which way to go.

I did a quick check of the O'Reilly web site and all their CMS info
revolves around XML and Java. This does not help me.

Re:What about CMS solutions? (3, Informative)

Cyphertube (62291) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095810)

It depends on what you need. CMS is a very, very broad term, and most people are looking for a WCMS (Web Content Management System) when they say it, even though their true needs may be different.

I would recommend getting the Content Management Bible, which you can learn more about here [metatorial.com]. It covers the various systems out there. One company I worked for realised they needed a Digital Asset Management system, like Artesia [artesia.com], and not something like Interwoven [interwoven.com].

Good luck! And remember that O'Reilly isn't the only reasonable tech publisher out there.

Hmmph. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7095643)

I read the book, and the book review, and I can't disagree more. There was NO plot development, the characters were flat and uninspiring, the writer clearly has never been to any of the locations he wrote about, and the ending was absolutely anti-climactic. I mean, COME ON! Where's the zip? Where's the spice?

Someone get this guy a GF (3, Funny)

Greedo (304385) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095654)

Am I the only one who noticed that his website [zeldman.com] is Supported by XDate Speed Dating, 30Dates Speed Dating, and for free online dating, xdate.com?

Maybe he should take a break from writing and get out to the bar a bit more.

Geesh, don't be silly... (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7095659)

Just open up MS-Word and use File-->Save As
web page
Voila! You have now created the perfect web page in ten seconds!
Microsoft takes care of all of the standards stuff so you don't have to worry your pretty little head about that. No really...don't worry.
No...don't do "View Source"
NO! Don't! EVERYTHING IS OK!! STEP AWAY FROM THE KEYBOARD

Standards make life easier for everyone. (1)

Maul (83993) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095668)

Taking a few extra steps to ensure standards compliance is well worth it.

I've found that standard compliant web pages tend to be more interoperable between browsers (sadly, there will still be differences). This makes it easier for you since you won't have to work as hard to find ways to make your site look good in several browsers. It makes it easier for viewers because they can use the web browser they like the best.

The only problem is that there are a lot of people who still browse on old hardware that has Netscape 4.x on it. Netscape 4.x tends to mangle CSS pretty badly.

Re:Standards make life easier for everyone. (1)

dmeranda (120061) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095824)

Then you must be excluding MSIE from your tests. Getting web pages to successfully validate against the W3C validators is just the beginning.

So, do you serve up your latest XHTML pages with a standard mime type of "application/xml+xhtml"? Or are you still using the old deprecated "text/html"? Ooops, IE doesn't understand the new standard mime type. Or oops, you didn't realize that was the new standard (it's burried out there on W3C). That's just one very small example of the details you have to deal with if you are very serious about standards conformance.

I'm not trying to discourage you though. I have spent countless hours making web pages just about as perfectly conforming as I can, using the STRICT standards. I have throughly read every related W3C spec, RFC, Unicode specs, etc. Also throw in usability standards, and other related standards. I've also done this with dynamically generated webpages, which means I had to code the whole thing myself because almost no web application "platforms" are fully compliant or even capable of producing strictly-compliant webpages. It's a really tough job to do it well, and not to break stupid browsers (but it is selfishly satifying once you achieve that and prove that it can be done).

Does it cover... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7095683)

... the maddening differences between Internet Explorer, Mozilla/Firebird/Netscape 6x-7x, Opera, Netscape (butchered v4x), Safari and of course, Lynx? If the developers of all the different browsers out there read this book, would they even agree on how to execute and implement it? Not likely as long as the Suits they work for all have their own adjendas.

Ummm (0, Flamebait)

DaveKAO (320532) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095700)

Microsoft browsers follow standards MUCH closer than Netscape. Mozilla is good, but still has some problems. Tables and Styles just do not work in Netscape 4.0, and have limited use in 6.0 and above. I find that 40% of my design time goes to formatting (using supposed standards) for IE 6, and the rest goes to trying to manipulate Netscape/Mozilla/Macs into displaying the proper way.

I don't agree (1)

justMichael (606509) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095841)

I do ALL of my development on a PowerBook with Camino (Mozilla based) and the only browsers I have to tweak for are Netscape 4 and IE 5. Mostly for Netscape 4.

If you know what things the different browsers can handle and what makes them puke it's not that bad. You end up with some legacy width and height tags for Netscape 4, but the CSS aware browsers will ignore them.

You also want to sniff the browser to feed it CSS that it can handle, I have found that some tag's will destroy a page in Netscape 4 and IE 5, so there a 3 CSS files for NS_4, IE_5 and everything else.

Don't get me wrong, I will never get Netscape 4 to look the way I want, but according to my logs, I don't need to.

Re:Ummm (1)

bunratty (545641) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095849)

I agree that Netscape 6.0 did have some issues, but that browser was released three years ago and hardly anyone ever used it because it was so slow and buggy. Even fewer continue to use it today.

I'd spend my time checking the site with Netscape 7.x or Mozilla 1.0.x or Mozilla 1.4.x instead. Can you give a specific example of "limited use" of tables and styles in one of those browsers?

Re:Ummm (5, Informative)

dastrike (458983) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095889)

Internet Explorer violates a lot of standards. And is otherwise nasty to work with.
  • CSS level 1: Not full support despite MS claiming so. E.g.background-attatchment: fixed; works only on the <body element.
  • CSS level 2: Quite a mess, lots of things are broken, e.g. the infamous issues with the box model, and lots of things are not implemented, e.g. position: fixed;
  • XML support is flaky at best, it tends to complain about DTDs even though they are valid.
  • Other nasty quirks such as when having a <?xml ... ?> declaration, then it ignores the doctype and reverts to quirks mode with all the broken box models and such.
  • Violation of the HTTP specification by ignoring the media type received from the server. Internet Explorer will most of the time second-guess the media type instead.

    http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec7.h tml#sec7.2.1 [w3.org]
    If and only if the media type is not given by a Content-Type field, the recipient MAY attempt to guess the media type via inspection of its content and/or the name extension(s) of the URI used to identify the resource.
I design according to the standards and using Mozilla and Opera 7 as the design references, and then adjust the stylesheets for IE's buggy behavior, so that it renders fine there as well.

Yes but! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7095726)

Until Debian Linux ships a standards compliant browser in the stable version, I as a web deisgner have to stick with NShtml because debian potato still uses netscape 4.8 as its default browser.

Sigh, and I have 20 clients too, which go all googaah over (blink) tags. (I am a debian certified consultant)

This book is excellent (1)

denisb (411264) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095727)

I would say this book is as close to a 10 as possible.

The first historical overview mentioned is very nice, but can be skipped. However I feel it is an important part of the book, and gives weight to the arguments on why using the standards way later on. It also gets designers new to the web up to date on what has passed, and highlights mistakes that were made (so we can possibly avoid them again).

Otherwise I agree fully with the author, the book is indeed both well written, has a nice flow and really gives good arguments why this is the right way, and how to do it the right way. The authors attitude is never arrogant, and the solutions are always practically oriented and work well in real-life (unlike a lot of other books on HTML and CSS).

My take on this book is that if you want to read one book on web design this should be it. Of course after having read this book you probably change your mind and start looking for other literature by the same author :)

Dead issue (-1, Flamebait)

NineNine (235196) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095751)

This is such a dead issue, it's laughable. Really. This book would have been useful in say, 1999, but today, it's a moot fucking point. It's kinda' like a rant about how Betamax is the "official standard". It's ridiculous, outdated, and purely academic. There hasn't been a significant (or even insignificant) change in web browsing in years, and there's unlikely to be one any time soon. And when there is, it's highly unlikely that everything is going to break.

Re:Dead issue (1)

ghoting (542145) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095892)

Ya, and that's why the fella a couple posts above yours says,
Ummm (Score:1)

by DaveKAO (320532) on Tuesday September 30, @10:36AM (#7095700)
Microsoft browsers follow standards MUCH closer than Netscape. Mozilla is good, but still has some problems. Tables and Styles just do not work in Netscape 4.0, and have limited use in 6.0 and above. I find that 40% of my design time goes to formatting (using supposed standards) for IE 6, and the rest goes to trying to manipulate Netscape/Mozilla/Macs into displaying the proper way.
If there was nothing useful in this book, then statements like that wouldn't be made.

If it was such a dead issue, it wouldn't be a huge event when a major site (news.com, espn.com, wired.com) finally adopts a modern standard and aims for compliance.

This book would have been useful in '99, sure, but it's far from a moot point now.

Perhaps... (1)

dark_panda (177006) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095772)

... someone could spring and buy a copy for our hosts [w3.org]?

Granted, some parts of the W3 standards are worth breaking (wrap attributes in textrea inputs, for instance), but c'mon.

J

Here's to reading books from start to finish (2, Insightful)

TheNarrator (200498) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095778)

Reading tech books from start to finish is quite underrated. I find that if you don't read every word in a tech book, one often misses important information that can save a lot of time.

Standards aren't standard (1)

Capt'n Hector (650760) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095812)

Imagine a world where valid xhtml/css websites rendered the same in all browsers. Imagine a world without Internet explorer.... ahhhhhh.

Unfortunately, very few sites out there that work in all browsers correctly are compliant.

I guess it's a toss up: have a little validator button proudly displayed somewhere on your site and have a few display errors in Internet Explorer or have a messily coded site that is slow, but works.

Too bad nobody follows standards (1)

chia_monkey (593501) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095845)

Standards are nice. It's a cryin' shame nobody follows them though. Sure, it takes considerably longer to make your site standards-compliant and geeze, we can't cut into our bottome line, can we? We gotta get that site out right away. Screw Mac users. Or screw AOL users. Let's just code for IE. It's a nice dream but unfortunately I don't see it being used in the real world.

Another unfortunate tidbit...I work for one of those places. I know the aggrivation of trying to get compliance through to people who just won't listen. *sigh*

Usings standards to save size (5, Informative)

Jonas ÷berg (19456) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095862)

Our faculty of the university at which I work has decided on a new layout for their web pages. This was done and delivered to us by a PR agency. I feared that it might be bad, but that fear didn't even come close to what I had to witness.

Imagine having to tell our users (many of which are using GNU/Linux or Macintosh) that our web site only works reliably in Windows with Internet Explorer 6.0 and above. Just because a PR agency can't develop web pages. It's impossible. I had to do something about it.

So when I implemented the layout for our department (scheduled to go live later this month), I scrapped everything they had done. I took a printout of their page (as it looked in Internet Explorer) and marked up what colors and fonts they had used.

Then I set down and wrote the same thing using XHTML/1.0 Strict and CSS1. This was about two days work, but the finished result now validates using w3c's validate tools, and it works reliably in all browsers I've managed to try, all the way back to Mosaic and Netscape 3, with or without images (yes, Lynx, Links, w3 and other text browsers work very well indeed too).

Not only did I get the pages to validate. By using CSS, I was able to get rid of several images they had been using with their design. The overall size of a page, including graphics and CSS, now weighs in at about 35 kbytes. This is compared to around 120 kbytes with the proposed code.

And even better, most things can be cached by the browser (CSS code and images). The only thing that needs reloading when you hit subsequent pages is the dynamic XHTML code, which weighs in at around 5 kbytes, compares to 40 kbytes in the proposed code.

Now, I think our students will like us. This result is even better than the pages that we have today. They render quickly and effortlessly even on old equipment or on extremely slow links.

I havn't been able to convince the faculty to make my code the "default" yet, but they might get the idea once people start noticing that our pages load much more quickly than the rest of the faculty pages.

So, using standards isn't always about making things render nicely in all browsers. It gives you a while heap of nice side effects that isn't worth sneezing at.

Stop IE Now! (2, Offtopic)

naztafari (696863) | more than 10 years ago | (#7095873)

It's irritating the way the world is enslaved to such an awful spyware-magnet standards-flouting browser as MS Internet Explorer.

Microsoft declared IE6 SP1 as the last standalone browser for lame-ass reasons. The truth is, they're only truly integrating IE into the next Windows Operating System for the first time, to prove their 'point' in the anti-trust case that they couldn't remove the browser from the OS.

If IE really was such an integral part of the current slew of windows versions, how come it takes ridiculously long to load when you enter a URL into the address bar of an explorer window, and that the people at LitePC [litepc.com] was able to remove IE from the Windows operating system?

Bunch of liars. Guys, help educate everyone and have people switch to either Mozilla [mozilla.org] or Opera [opera.com] -> Makes Windows boxes more secure and gets rid of the need to buy those stupid superflous pop-up killers. (you can pick up viruses or spyware just by surfing a maliciously coded website and hitting the wrong button)

None of my family and friends use IE anymore after I educated them about the dangers of IE.
Load More Comments
Slashdot Account

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?

Don't worry, we never post anything without your permission.

Submission Text Formatting Tips

We support a small subset of HTML, namely these tags:

  • b
  • i
  • p
  • br
  • a
  • ol
  • ul
  • li
  • dl
  • dt
  • dd
  • em
  • strong
  • tt
  • blockquote
  • div
  • quote
  • ecode

"ecode" can be used for code snippets, for example:

<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>
Sign up for Slashdot Newsletters
Create a Slashdot Account

Loading...