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SuSE Going For Red Hat's Market

Hemos posted more than 10 years ago | from the gunning-for-the-top-dog dept.

Linux Business 114

IAEBG writes "SuSE Linux has enlisted the backing of server-software maker Veritas, an important step in supporting the needs of business computing and keeping up with top Linux seller Red Hat. Check out the article on News.com." Interesting step - now to see how it all pans out.

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114 comments

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omg (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7318316)

fscking 20s delay .... lol roftl yhbt yhl hand !

Re:omg (-1)

Adolf Hitroll (562418) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318331)

Heil mich : second time today [slashdot.org] ! :)
BTW, who is this imposter [slashdot.org] ?

Market (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7318320)

I'm pretty sure SuSE and Red-Hat were already in the same market.

Re:Market (2, Informative)

mirko (198274) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318354)

"United" Linux [unitedlinux.com] I do not think so :
The four partner companies in UnitedLinux LLC - Conectiva, the SCO Group, SuSE Linux and Turbolinux -- continue to support products powered by UnitedLinux Version 1.0 and customers deploying these products.
No mention about Red Hat...

Re:Market (3, Informative)

diersing (679767) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318429)

I think you have a gross conceptual error.

Market - as in doing business in the same arena (the server/enterprise OS market in this example) SuSE and Red Hat are certainely competitors there.

UnitedLinux was a marketing strategy to consolidate the distribution to battle the 'I can't run linux because I'm not sure which ones are good or which ones will be around' argument.

I think this is a great deal for SuSE. For those Windows shops that may want to delve into the Linux world now at least have a choice of distros if they are a partner of Veritas'.

Re:Market (2, Informative)

IANAAC (692242) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318667)

Market - as in doing business in the same arena (the server/enterprise OS market in this example) SuSE and Red Hat are certainely competitors there.

In the US, at least, SuSE and RH are most definitely NOT in the same market. When it comes to marketing toward businesses and enterprise, RH pretty much owns the market. You don't find ads (or anything else, for that matter) from SuSE targeting businesses. SuSE is, however, quite popular outside that market. I don't know about Europe, but I suspect that the positions are reversed there, with SuSE having the lead.

Re:Market (3, Interesting)

diersing (679767) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318967)

Very true.

Here in lies the rub when talking about markets. There is the OS market, then there's the US OS market, it gets broken down all over the place (especially when talking about market share, like any other statistic the presenter has quite a bit of wiggle room to present their point of view).

As a US computer junky, I can tell you that in my local CompUSA, there are only 2 boxed, retail versions of Linux. They are Red Hat and SuSE, so on some playing fields (markets) they are competing head-to-head.

As far as a market share, and who has the most installs - I would agree that Red Hat is dominating in the US and SuSE in the EU.

I worked in a shop that ran Dell. As part of the Dell Server Assistant install (at the time at least) you had your choice of Windows NT4, Windows 2000, and Red Hat of assisted OS installs. SuSE wasn't an option and because RH and Dell had a 'relationship', SuSE wasn't even in the game. This is why their partnership with Veritas is so important. As more hardware manufactures and software vendors certify more then just Red Hat, the consumers get more choices and as we know, competition breeds better products.

Re:Market (1)

hendridm (302246) | more than 10 years ago | (#7319304)

Hmmm, I still think they're in the same market (especially in light of RedHat dumping their community edition), just not the same market share.

Re:Market (1)

pyros (61399) | more than 10 years ago | (#7319894)

especially in light of RedHat dumping their community edition

I don't think it's quite fair to say they're dropping their community edition, any more than to say debian doesn't have a community edition. Red Hat Linux is being transitioned to a community model where volunteers maintain packages adhering to a community standard, and caling it Fedora Core. It will still have large involvement from Red Hat employees, too. We just won't get the free back-ported updates. Instead the volunteer maintainers will decide to back-port themselves, or package the new version.

Re:Market (1)

hendridm (302246) | more than 10 years ago | (#7320964)

This troubles me from the top of their web site [redhat.com] :

"It is also a proving ground for new technology that may eventually make its way into Red Hat products."

So it's now going to be a big test distro like Debian Unstable? I always thought RedHat CE was an excellent balance between bleeding edge and stability, but it appears now they will focus on bleeding edge. :(

Re:Market (1)

SpaceJunkie (579366) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318772)

This must be a bad thing- because you said SCO!
I dont think I have ever played with TurboLinux.

Re:Market (1)

SpaceJunkie (579366) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318785)

Dont know why those angle brackets didnt come out- there was supposed to be "Knee Jerk" tags around that first line(it pays to preview).

Re:Market (1)

cpghost (719344) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318653)

Yes, they are in the same market, and perform both more or less decently. I'm a sysadmin who was a fan of SuSE for a long time, but I switched to FreeBSD after having been hugely disappointed by SuSE's pricing policy for end users when they introduced the Euro currency in Europe. Yes, this alone is not a sufficient criterion, but it sticked, I've since then helped convert many ten-thousands of computers in enterprises to FreeBSD (both from SuSE and RH and M$).
And less than 0.5% of the users and local admins thought it was a bad move and reverted back to Linux. None went back to Windows though :-)

If I really need a brand new device driver for some new off-the-shelf hardware, I'd go with SuSE, which is quite mature here. But if that device is supported by FreeBSD (which often happens after a small time lag), I quickly go back to BSD.

This is just my personal experience. YMMV.

Re:Barking market (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7320249)

Ya got that straight, pad're .... there's nobody working the home_lusr market , but rabid, drooling Debiolian and Slackmolian straydogs. HA! Nothing like the smell of paws in shiny, JackBoot leather, eh pad'res ....? Looks like da-TUX has not been berry-bery-good ta me.

First post (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7318322)

Hell yes

YOU FAIL IT (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7318332)

THIRD POST no soup for you. HAND.

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Immagine a Beowulf cluster... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7318328)

Immagine a Beowulf cluster of first posts.

Everybody Pay Attention!!! (-1, Redundant)

Creepy Crawler (680178) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318330)

Two companies are joining to make....... money!!

Why didnt I think of this? Or I could have patented this as a "way to coexist".

Nothink to see here. Move on netizen.

Re:Everybody Pay Attention!!! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7318357)

1. Start company
2. Partner with Veritas
3. ???
4. Profit!

Heh, wow. (-1, Offtopic)

serial frame (236591) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318336)

Aren't they always? /me tosses karma into a pool of liquid hot magma.

Emperor Bill (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7318347)

"Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design. Your friends, writing free software, are walking into a trap, as is your GNU fleet. It was I who allowed FSF to know the location of the revenue generator! It is quite safe from your pitiful little band."

"Come, boy, see for yourself. From here, you will witness the final destruction of the FSF and the end of your insignificant rebellion. You want this, don't you? The hate is swelling in you now. Take your GNU weapon. Use it. I am unarmed. Strike me down with it. Give in to your anger! With each passing moment you make yourself more my servant."

Re:Emperor Bill (-1, Offtopic)

AndroidCat (229562) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318403)

So how long until Darth Ballmer grabs the emperor and throws him down a shaft?

Pass the popcorn?

Re:Emperor Bill (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7318404)

"Your overconfidence is your weakness."

Veritas apt-get support? (-1)

Debian Troll (676582) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318352)

Does anyone know if this will affect Veritas's earlier commitment to use apt-get as the basis of their new enterprise Linux package/resource management system? Imagine the convenience of being able to roll out new desktop systems with a single 'apt-get install desktop' command? apt-get rocks!

Sun Plug (4, Insightful)

Davak (526912) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318369)

I love the Sun plug found in the article:
The new software will make it easier for Unix customers to adopt Linux, Haff said. "It makes that move from a lot of Unix systems, and from Sun in particular, easier than it was before," he said. Sun Microsystems' Solaris is the most widely used version of Unix and a prime candidate for companies that want to save costs by using Linux on less-expensive Intel-based hardware.

However, being a Sun guy myself, I worry if this is this one more blow against Sun's unstable current position.

Davak

Re:Sun Plug (1)

steelerguy (172075) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318497)

I would not worry too much if I were you about this comment. It is akin to being shot by a bb gun, a mere welt, compared to the gaping .45 wounds that are bleeding unchecked in Sun's belly.

Re:Sun Plug (1)

scruffy_minds (582422) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318823)

compared to the gaping .45 wounds that are bleeding unchecked in Sun's belly.

Don't you mean from the self-inflicted wounds in their feet?

Re:Sun Plug (1)

fault0 (514452) | more than 10 years ago | (#7319111)

No.. the self-inflicited wounds in their belly.

The Microsoft conspiracy angle... (4, Informative)

jkrise (535370) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318380)

I remember that Veritas was one of the few companies that licensed MS filesystem and protocols. In fact, after Seagate, I think Veritas took over Backup Exec and the XP backup s/w.

Now, what advantage does tying up with Veritas give a Linux distro firm? Backups? That should be a very minor market segment, even among Corporate users.

Methinks, there's something sly going on over here.

Re:The Microsoft conspiracy angle... (3, Informative)

OP_Boot (714046) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318417)

Yes, they bought Backup Exec (and the non-crystal bits of Seagate Software). Veritas wrote Disk Manager for Win2K. They also wrote a replacement for NTFS that never saw the light of day. But don't forget that they built themselves on filesystems, volume management and clustering for unix boxen.

Re:The Microsoft conspiracy angle... (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7318438)

I work closely with Veritas (I design storage systems) and I can tell you that there is no bias at Veritas towards any specific operating system. They have created several parts of w2k / XP, but they also supply file systems for most of the *NIX systems.

Also backup software (netbackup and backup exec) are one of the most important products that you can run in an enterprise network. Not trivial as you seem to suggest...

Re:The Microsoft conspiracy angle... (1)

diersing (679767) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318480)

One advantage might be for a Windows shop who is a partner with Veritas, that is thinking of making the jump to linux to reduce some costs. Having a trusted partner (Veritas) come in and advise, maybe deploy (or at least work with them to deploy) would raise their comfort level. Once linux is in the datacenter and proving itself that company would be more likely and comfortable, in choosing a linux solution.

Re:The Microsoft conspiracy angle... (1)

dAzED1 (33635) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318519)

Now, what advantage does tying up with Veritas give a Linux distro firm? Backups? That should be a very minor market segment, even among Corporate users.

Are you nuts? Backups are INSANELY important in corporate culture. Veritas is the most widely used backup product, and so one can tie in with the established backup system. The backup environment you already have serving your windows, sun, and etc systems - hey, now you can backup SuSE on it too.

An OS has NO chance in a corporate environment if management can't pay an outside vendor for a backup product. For SuSE to be taken seriously, it *absolutely* needs people like veritas, legato, etc. to certify them.

Re:The Microsoft conspiracy angle... (1)

compwizrd (166184) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318732)

I'd love to see a free tape reader that would let me read ntbackup tapes on linux.

Yes, MTF can read some tapes, but I've ran into problems with it.

As well, my final goal would be to read files done with ntbackup(backup to disk) under linux.

Nobody seems to have done this so far though.

Re:The Microsoft conspiracy angle... (1)

ducomputergeek (595742) | more than 10 years ago | (#7319077)

Now, what advantage does tying up with Veritas give a Linux distro firm? Backups? That should be a very minor market segment, even among Corporate users.

Either 1) I don't understand what your talking about, or 2) you don't know what your talking about.

I develop technology plans and consulting to small and medium sized businesses (Usually between 5 - 50 employees). Even in the smallest of companies, backups are mission critical, especially in sales, customers databases, accounting data, etc..

Unfortunately, most of these businesses rely on M$ products because in this area M$ has about 40% of the server market, 50% AS/400 (3 of the 10 largest AS/400 datacenters in the world are in this town), and the other 10% are other (mixture of Linux, Sun mainly).

Just take a small business that gets a virus or the cheap ass Maxtor in their Dell decides to quit. It costs them at least half a new machine to have someone come out or to take it to a computer repair shop to recover data. If they are lucky, they get back 80% of what they had and oftentimes, especially in the smaller businesses, that basically adds up to a day of inactivity. Its worse when its a server.

Now on those levels, having the fastest file system for recovery, proably won't mean much, but for an enterprise having to deal with terrabytes of data, its a big deal.

Banks, an area we focus in because my business partner's family has either controlling interest or a lot of money invested in 14 local banks, are backup nazi's. Usually they have their SAN, back-up SAN, and redundant SAN, with nightly backup's of the day's transactions on Optical drives.

The last 2 banks we worked with spent over 50% of their budget on storage and back-up systems, not processing power. While this may be a small market in terms of %, consider that each of these banks spent well over USD 4 Million on the new systems (1 was replacing ALPHA units, the other just expanding their server needs). So yes, its a small market, that spends a lot of money.

Re:The Microsoft conspiracy angle... (3, Interesting)

Diabolical (2110) | more than 10 years ago | (#7319107)

Now, what advantage does tying up with Veritas give a Linux distro firm? Backups? That should be a very minor market segment, even among Corporate users.


Ever stopped to consider how much money is in this segment? How important it is to have a backup solution which is secure, scalable and trustable in a million bussiness?

The fact that Veritas bought up the backup part of Seagate's software and that they have strong ties with Windows doesn't mean that they are up to some "sly" stuff... As a matter of fact, i couldn't think of anything for that matter.

They see an emerging market, Linux, which is needing strong products to back it up in corporate userland. Any company would immediately jump to it.

It's not as if they never supported any other kind of OS. They have supported (and still do) Novell Netware next to Windows. Their agents are available for different Unix versions (including Linux for some time now, databases (oracle and SQL server), messaging systems (Exchange and Lotus Notes) and many other corporate tools. Many of which compete directly with MS software. Oh.. by the way, they also boast the fact that they surpassed Microsoft in supplying clustering and availability products. [veritas.com] Not something you would expect from a MS serf would you?

Re:The Microsoft conspiracy angle... (1)

u-235-sentinel (594077) | more than 10 years ago | (#7319183)

It was my understanding that Veritas partially wrote the NTFS filesystem for Micro$oft. I have heard this mentioned several times throughout the years. Curious if this isn't the case.

Re:The Microsoft conspiracy angle... (1)

akahige (622549) | more than 10 years ago | (#7319531)

Hmmm... let's see if we can't reason this out...

1) Backups are absolutely critical to the functioning of EVERY company, therefore every company needs a 100% reliable, enterprise backup solution.

2) The more enterprise-level, commercial grade tools are available, the better the "sell" to non-techies (read "executives and pencil pushers")

3) Veritas is owned by IBM.

After a billion dollar commitment, a JFS port, and an ongoing three billion dollar lawsuit, I can't imagine why they'd want to broaden the popularity and acceptance of Linux.

What a minute.... (-1, Redundant)

swordboy (472941) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318383)

SuSE is going for the Linux market?

Who woulda thunk?

moron corepirate nazIE stock markup FraUD garbull (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7318408)

robbIE's become such a robotic (you remember that co.?) ?pr? ?firm? stock markup FraUD hypenosys shill, that he's now touting the repackaging of the gnu stuff as sum sorte of corepirate coup? fauxking felonious FraUDs they are.

consult with/trust in yOUR creator... vote with yOUR wallet. that's the spirit.

mynuts won: still bucking the partIE LIEn?

Insane AC? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7318430)

What's with the stupid capital letters? Are you some kind of lunatic? Can't you just write properly? Or are you braindead?

RH still seem 'better for business' (4, Informative)

hughk (248126) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318416)

Red Hat's enterprise server products have had good coverage and in general, it is seen as being better for business customers. I guess this is mostly because of their press coverage in the English speaking world. However, Suse is popular in Europe, particularly in Germany and this is an important step for them to be able to offer high-end solutions to the PHBs.

Incidentally, Linuxworld Frankfurt is colocated with the European Banking World expo and conference. A ticket for one gets you into to the other. The Bankfest, is for serious PHBs and Linuxworld is offering a day on Linux in finance to attract "Cross-interest".

In other news, Sun's shares (SUNW) were slighlty down. Having Veritas supporting both RH and Suse isn't good news for them.

support? (2, Informative)

dphoenix (623525) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318449)

What's really going to matter to businesses is support. With Red Hat, they know they're getting a trusted support contract. That's the primary reason most businesses choose Red Hat.

Re:support? (2, Informative)

Wudbaer (48473) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318493)

While this is true for the US, at least in Germany (at most likely also in other European countries) SuSE has a strong support and consulting presence.

It's not accidential that the Munich Linux project as well as other larger Linux migration projects are backed by SuSE among others like IBM. Also in Germany large vendors like IBM or Fujitsu-Siemens work closely with SuSE. While Redhat still has a strong presence in Germany, SuSE is a premium choice for large Linux projects over here.

Re:support? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7319142)

In most of Europe, SuSE is more trusted/well known than RH. Of course, RH is going after SuSE's EU market, and SuSE is going after RH's NA market.

Re:RH still seem 'better for business' (5, Interesting)

terraformer (617565) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318617)

RH still seem 'better for business'

Really? I got an email from red hat threatening to take me to collection for non payment. I had not even gotten one other communication, snail or email, from them preceeding this (I check my junk mail and save every piece of it, in part, for this very reason). I call up and uncharacteristically don't blow my top but ask if they have been having billing issues. Turns out that I did owe them money, a cc had expired on an auto rebill, but he did acknowledge that I did not know about it and that they had taken their system offline for over two months (for an upgrade... hmmm) and the system just picked up from where it believed it should be at that point and not from where it had left off. Businesses don't need crap like that.

I am really glad to have an alternative to RH in this space. Linux is about alternatives and there have not been viable ones for some time in the Business space in linux. This should help and I can assure you in a year when I plan on upgrading, I will be checking out SuSe.

Re:RH still seem 'better for business' (1)

1010011010 (53039) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318724)


Businesses are used to "crap like that," actually.

Alternatives are good, though. I just hope the Linux market stays sufficiently unified that ISVs will write software for it.

Re:RH still seem 'better for business' (-1, Flamebait)

papasui (567265) | more than 10 years ago | (#7319902)

You admit to owing them money, and when they explain it was a mistake and no harm was done you are going to leave them? Seems like if anyone is to blame it's mostly you.

fighting for scraps... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7318446)

Wile MS dominates the world of computers.

That's the way things should be.

Going for Red Hat's market?? (5, Insightful)

Cooper_007 (688308) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318447)

At the moment I'm under the impression that SuSE parimarily targets European business whereas RedHat aims more for the US, so they're not really going for Red Hat's market. Please correct me if this is wrong.

Aside from this, Red Hat and Suse are competitors. Of course Suse is going for Red Hat's market and you can rest assured that Red Hat is trying very hard to react in kind.

Maybe someone should change the headline to "Suse signs a deal with Veritas"?

Cooper
--
I don't need a pass to pass this pass!
- Groo The Wanderer -

Re:Going for Red Hat's market?? (1)

melonman (608440) | more than 10 years ago | (#7319195)

I don't have figures to back this up, but my impression is that the "Suse is European" thing is a bit simplistic. Just looking at the latest catalogue from a major German computer mail order company, also present in France, who edit several Linux magazines, and they offer a choice of Debian, Mandrake or Red Hat. No Suse. Sure, your average corporate customer isn't going to use that catalogue, but the widespread use of Red Hat in the US obviously adds to its appeal elsewhere, simply because of the tendency of third party programmers to test with RH rather than Suse. Our company switched from Suse to RH for exactly that reason: we just got fed up with messing around with sources when there was always a RH rpm available.

Re:Going for Red Hat's market?? (1)

u-235-sentinel (594077) | more than 10 years ago | (#7319210)

Part of the reason I think they are doing this is Fedora. RedHat may be providing in the future distro's for poeple to download still. Then again perhaps Fedora will flop. I simply don't know. It's too soon to make any determination whether this is a good move or not.

Personally I am apprehensive and will be watching this very closely. I've used SUSE in the past and am looking at another linux distro for a backup (Debian). Just in case SUSE does dumb things :-)

It's about time! (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7318454)

All I can say is: it's about time.

I'm currently going through the pain of doing a Veritas
install on RH Server, and let me tell you I have some
*serious* reservations about this product. It is quite clear
that the Veritas stuff is not designed well at all. As much as
I'm a RH bigot, I'll drop them in a minute if this stuff runs
well on SuSE.

For example, in trying to bring up the Veritas stuff for what
will be a NAS head, Veritas requires two primary
partitions! Extended just won't work. Hello? This is an
incredibly basic and fundamental screwup, and it is simple
to fix. What did they do - ship the engineering off to India?

Then there are other issues to consider. Most notably NFS
performance. NFS on Linux just sucks in comparison to
Solaris. It is way too slow, and yes, I've done the various tuning bits. It looks like we'll have to dig into the source to
fix this; assuming we just don't drop RH altogether and go
back to Solaris.

So I'm very pleased to see Veritas and SuSE team up. If
only RH would join in. Perhaps something will be working
sufficiently for a real IT department in about a year. It sure
isn't there now.

Re:It's about time! (0)

bigredmed (699538) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318738)

Be careful about SuSE. Their support is really bad. Even if you pay for extra support, it will usually be unable to answer questions about peripherals like USB driven devices (ie: PDA's). I am not sure RH is better, but I am disappointed in SuSE and will likely switch to a diferent distro if a better desktop distro comes along.

Re:It's about time! (1)

Tenareth (17013) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318837)


Most of what you mention are requirements on Sun equipment too. You install Solaris understanding you need to leave 2 partitions and a few megs free for Veritas to take over later. Since Linux isn't picky about using primaries, it doesn't really matter once you get used to the idea.

As for NFS, I've had pretty good luck with it's performance if I give it extra network bandwidth, but yeah... it still needs work.

Re:It's about time! (2, Interesting)

Znork (31774) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318993)

Um, if you have discovered that Veritas is not very well designed why do you want it more integrated?

Veritas is like that. Either you get to live with it or you take a hard long look at the more free replacements.

You can live without Veritas today. I most definitely dont want it included in RedHat. The alternatives like LVM are far more worthwhile to pursue (And more in line with RedHat's tendency to prefer freely distributable software in the distribution. Which is one of the main reasons that RedHat has a far bigger marketshare than SuSE does).

Veritas lack of quality :-/ (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7319604)

It is quite clear that the Veritas stuff is not designed well at all.

My condolences... you are just now discovering that which the rest of us Veritas "victims" have known about for years. I've been fighting with their slapped-together-hastily products for three-quarters of decade and as soon as my boss retires, and I move up to a decision-making position, my first goal is to end our dependence on their support-intensive malware.

Veritas is bad news! (4, Interesting)

Theovon (109752) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318461)

Where I work, we've had some rather unpleasant experiences with Veritas. I'm not the sysadmin, so I don't have all the details. In any event, we had a hardware failure, resulting in the need for a full restore from tape. Here are some of the problems we encountered with Veritas:

- The documentation doesn't tell you this, but if you choose to have quick backups, then you get very slow restores.
- Our restore rate was about 1 megabyte per second.
- Veritas would crash after restoring only a few gigabytes, requiring us to restart where we left off, only for it to crash again after a few gigabytes. This resulted in a few gaps in the restore.
- Veritas uses some proprietary format on tape, making it impossible for us to get at the data some other way so that we could write scripts to check what was restored and what was not.
- Veritas support is prohibitively expensive.
- We were down for a week because of this horrible software.

Re:Veritas is bad news! (3, Informative)

larien (5608) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318571)

I don't know about your other issues, but as far as I'm aware, Veritas uses USTAR format on tape; from http://www.data-storage.info/product.asp?pid=68 [data-storage.info] :
Non-proprietary tape format provides the ability to create .tar compatible tapes

Re:Veritas is bad news! (2, Insightful)

Tet (2721) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318608)

Veritas uses USTAR format on tape

This is only true for trivial cases (single machine backup). In the real world, multiple machines back up to a central server concurrently. When that happens, Veritas uses it's own interleaved format on tape, which isn't readable with tar.

Re:Veritas is bad news! (1)

larien (5608) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318881)

Ah, if you use multiplexing then yes; OTOH, you can have multiple tape drives and have Netbackup stream one client to each tape drive and that will also speed up restores (it will be able to stream from tape rather than stream/seek). This is true for all backup products, not just Veritas; if you interleave backups, you will degrade restore speed.

Re:Veritas is bad news! (0)

OldManSteptoe (72239) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318572)

Veritas uses some proprietary format on tape

It depends on which backup product you were using. If you were using netbackup, which you should because the others are crap, the format's tar. Gnu tar actually, it more cross-platform.

The support is expensive though.

Re:Veritas is bad news! (3, Insightful)

Albanach (527650) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318637)

The documentation doesn't tell you this, but if you choose to have quick backups, then you get very slow restores.

So they offered Quick Backups as an option rather than as default and you didn't think there must be some compromise? Don't you think that if quick backups were available without compromise, it would happen as standard?

Veritas would crash after restoring only a few gigabytes, requiring us to restart where we left off, only for it to crash again after a few gigabytes. This resulted in a few gaps in the restore.

Given the number of enterprise organisations using Veritas, this sounds a lot like a problem with your setup. Have you spoken to their technical support team? Someone's probably had similar problems before. They can probably identify the problem and help you fix it.

Veritas uses some proprietary format on tape, making it impossible for us to get at the data some other way so that we could write scripts to check what was restored and what was not.

You bought proprietary software, and it uses a proporietary format. Are you surprised? Of course you could always download your enterprise class backup solution from freshmeat [freshmeat.net] . You buy enterprise software because of the support, so call up tech support, explain your problem. Ask them if they have a way of identifying what was backed up and what wasn't.

Veritas support is prohibitively expensive.

Yes, qualified technical experts tend to be. This is enterprise support, not a droid that can get by telling you to reinstall Win9x.

We were down for a week because of this horrible software.

No, you were down for a week because your SysAdmin clearly hadn't tested the company's disaster recovery plan before disaster finally hit. If you don't test your backup solution before you need it you can be 99% sure it'll fail when you do.

Re:Veritas is bad news! (2, Informative)

Allasard (565291) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318659)

I am a sysadmin....

- The documentation doesn't tell you this, but if you choose to have quick backups,then you get very slow restores.

Um, I just flipped through the manual for about 15 seconds and found at least one example: "However, when you use multiplexing, expected reduced performance on restores...."

- Our restore rate was about 1 megabyte per second.

That sounds like a network or hardware or architecture bottleneck. Software has nothing to do with the tape speed writing to the disk you're restoring to.

- Veritas would crash after restoring only a few gigabytes, requiring us to restart where we left off, only for it to crash again after a few gigabytes. This resulted in a few gaps in the restore.

Never saw that. Just restored a 100Gig Filesystem last week.

- Veritas uses some proprietary format on tape, making it impossible for us to get at the data some other way so that we could write scripts to check what was restored and what was not.

They use GNU tar, I think. You're only problem is finding which file number on the tape your data is. (You might not be able to restore a multiplexed image by hand) I've recently restored some files on a tape with "tar" I didn't want to import from another backup server.

- Veritas support is prohibitively expensive.

Well, they are. :) But sometimes you get what you pay for.

- We were down for a week because of this horrible software.

"Tis a poor workman who blames his tools."

That's not to say Netbackup is perfect, it's not. But, you're being kind of unfair blaming a product. Backup speeds are always a tradeoff in respect to restores.

Re:Veritas is bad news! (1)

nolife (233813) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318723)

I have experienced similar but I'd like to expand a little. Their favorite answer for ANY problem when dealing with the MS side is "Did you reboot the servers?". After that it gets worse. Having a support contract for a backup structure on paper is a great thing for a PHB but it has severe limits. 9 out of 10 times when we have an issue with backups, Veritas immediately jumps on the "its the other hardware" bandwagon. We end up going around and around with Compaq, Cisco, Veritas and MS over slow and non working backups and restores. Veritas will never take the lead or provide any support for their equipment outside a small subset of troubleshooting the equipment directly, maybe higher up in the support channel you can get that but not in the first few lower levels. Any type of potential connectivity issues or slowness or specific issues with a certain job or backing up a certain type of data are met with a blank stare. The problem may not be directly related to the harware or software they provide, but they will not work with you to isolate the problem on how their equipment interfaces with other systems, which a backup operation requires. We normally play the firmware upgrade game, reboot some servers and most of the time it will work fine for a week or two after that. During these events, we normally find out a few things that we thought the equipment and software was supposed to do, does NOT work correctly without something extra or some extra work that was not brought up to us before (backing up Exchange stores a perfect example). To sum it up, I believe a support contract is a good thing to use for a crutch but the scope of a contract with Veritas is very limited on what they will do for you.

Re:Veritas is bad news! (1)

sad_ (7868) | more than 10 years ago | (#7320143)

Veritas uses some proprietary format on tape

we are not using veritas at my place fo work, but i've heard the sales and tech guys give presentations on their product several times already. they told us they use a modified version of the GNU TAR, and the source should be included. like i said, we are not using netbackup at work, but if it is true what they told me, it should not be that proprietary at all.

As a real sysadmin (4, Insightful)

nbvb (32836) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318475)

As a real sysadmin (I don't play one on TV, I do the real thing), let me just say that this is most definitely a Good Thing (tm) for SuSE.

There's no way, no how that they could write a volume manager or filesystem product that's even in the same league with VxFS and VxVM.

The clustering product is also very, very robust. It's a simple, clean design, yet very powerful if you know how to take advantage of it. A welcome breath of fresh air after Sun Cluster 2.x and even 3.x (What dogs!)

Does anyone else here know what Foundation Suite is? It provides a full volume management solution; no, this isn't so you can "mount your wind00z mp3z" or stuff like that. This is for real volume management, real disk replacement, real mirroring/striping/etc.

And VxFS is probably the most kick-ass filesystem I've ever used. The journaling alone is just fantastic, and the speed.... damn, it's fast. Even better, using Quick I/O....

Good for SuSE! About damned time Linux gained "real" volume management, filesystems & clustering.

Real businesses trust their data to real companies. Veritas is one of 'em.

Re:As a real sysadmin (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7318577)

Lets hope their LVM is as good as AIX's LVM.

Re:As a real sysadmin (4, Interesting)

Tet (2721) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318583)

There's no way, no how that they could write a volume manager or filesystem product that's even in the same league with VxFS and VxVM.

Of course there is. Not only is there a way, it's being done right now. Witness the recent addition of extents to ext3, and the (newly revived, IIRC) tux2 phase tree filesystem. See also the huge advances that have been made in the Linux LVM. Yes, Veritas is ahead of the pack at the moment. But they're catching up every day, and Veritas don't have a sustainable product offering[1] in the long term, in the same way that Sun is starting to feel the pinch from Linux. Yes, the low end tends to be laughed at by the high end players. But over time, the low end gradually acquires more and more features until it's on a par with the mid range and eventually high end. Elements within Veritas already know this, but whether management do is another matter entirely.

[1] Veritas have three main products: Foundation Suite (that is, VxFS and VxVM), clustering and backups. Of those, the first two are definitely under mid term threat from free alternatives.

Re:As a real sysadmin (1)

mikeee (137160) | more than 10 years ago | (#7319916)

Veritas' VVR (remote mirroring of volumes over IP, synchronous or not) is really quite nice once you're familiar with it.

Are there respectable free alternatives?

Re:As a real sysadmin (1)

perbu (624267) | more than 10 years ago | (#7320589)

.. (newly revived, IIRC) tux2 phase tree filesystem ..

Where? Where?

Re:As a real sysadmin (3, Interesting)

afabbro (33948) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318706)

Yeah, I'm a "real" sysadmin as well. However, I haven't drunk the Veritas kool-aid ;)

There's no way, no how that they could write a volume manager or filesystem product that's even in the same league with VxFS and VxVM.

Because they are GODS who brought down REVEALED TRUTH from the MOUNTAIN OF SYSADMIN GOODNESS...

No way/no how? Pshaw. First, Veritas VxFS and VxVM are not the only products in this space - AIX ships with volume managers and file systems that are just as nice and so do other Unices. Second, they are not terribly complicated products. All they really add is another layer of indirection. And third, there are filesystems for Linux written by IBM/SGI/other people who've been to the mountain (VM isn't quite there yet)

BTW, Veritas system products are generally a pain because they're a third-party add-on. That is one thing I like about AIX and HP-UX - the LVM is integrated.

The clustering product is also very, very robust.

VCS is nice but over-priced. Again, not the only player (though one of the better ones).

Does anyone else here know what Foundation Suite is?

No - we are all fake sysadmins who can only play with Linux because we can't get real sysadmin jobs. Please, real sysadmin, come down from the mount and give us your wisdom.

(For those who really don't know, FS is just VxVM and VxFS bundled together. It's also a convenient way for Veritas to say "you have to buy this before you can buy other stuff, even if you don't need it, because, like, it's the FOUNDATION, man")

FS is an over-priced remedy for Sun's defects. It's a hidden tax on every Solaris system. It has little penetration outside of Solaris because other operating systems come with their own "full volume management solutions" (thereby leveraging value-added synergistic paradigms to provide excellent enterprise ROI).

FS is a nice product but I do not genuflect before it.

This is for real volume management, real disk replacement, real mirroring/striping/etc.

Real, real, real, dammit! REAL! Not that fake stuff you fake sysadmins are doing! I'm talking my REAL stuff!

I hate to tell you this, but there is plenty of "real" storage management done outside the Sun/Veritas world: AIX, HP-UX, mainframes, AS/400, and...gasp...Linux, sometimes without Veritas!

Having seen different products, and knowing Veritas far more intimately than I want to, I can't say that Linux + Veritas would be my preferred combo.

And VxFS is probably the most kick-ass filesystem I've ever used. The journaling alone is just fantastic, and the speed.... damn, it's fast. Even better, using Quick I/O....

I have nothing against VxFS - a fine product. But hardly manna from heaven. A filesystem design has to be one of the most easily commoditized pieces of IT.

Real businesses trust their data to real companies. Veritas is one of 'em.

Yeah, I work in a "real" business and having had "real" experience with Veritas I can tell you that they are a "real" pain in the ass.

Veritas is a sick company. Their support has nosedived and their products of late have been orders of magnitude less reliable than years ago.

To sum up: Veritas is just a software company, not the messiah.

Re:As a real sysadmin (1)

richone (21384) | more than 10 years ago | (#7319481)

That is one thing I like about AIX and HP-UX - the LVM is integrated.

HPUX LVM is a Veritas Product. Same with HPs onlineJFS.

FS is just VxVM and VxFS bundled together.

At a >30% discount.

Veritas is a sick company.

http://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/tech/billsnyder/ 10 121547.html

Veritas grew through the economic downturn. Most of those issues are growing pains.

Veritas is just a software company, not the messiah.

Amen to that :)

Re:As a real sysadmin (1)

leiprecht (718672) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318786)

VxFS and VxVM fast.... ? Did i miss something ? I use it with a LHN SAN and i cannot confirm the big speed gain. at least not with our W2KAS... Besides that, it is good to see that a Linux Distro like Suse is forming alliances with a Company like Veritas. It makes me more confident that they are there to stay... :)

Re:As a real sysadmin (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7318984)

I agree with the poster that VxFS is a great LVM product which has grown out of SunOS/Solaris. RHAS 3.0 already has LVM built in. Are these two LVM's compatible? - no. The good move for SuSE would have been to work with the evms(http://evms.sourceforge.net/) team to pull evms(a non standard kernel component) into the SLES kernel. This would have provided compatability with RHAS 3.0 LVM, Solaris, AIX, et. al. VxFS is already available for Enterprise class Linux, this is really a non-happening. The other poster prior to this was talking about Veritas Netback, which has nothing to do with this announcement.

Why is LVM important? It provides a filesystem which can grow. Why? Because Databases grow. AIX LVM and other allow for a filesystem to grow while it is still online( no umount required). LVM, along with a better scaling kernel is what Linux needs to bust into the Linux (Vertical)DB market full force.

Re:As a real sysadmin (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7319839)

Why is LVM important? It provides a filesystem which can grow. Why? Because Databases grow. AIX LVM and other allow for a filesystem to grow while it is still online( no umount required). LVM, along with a better scaling kernel is what Linux needs to bust into the Linux (Vertical)DB market full force.

Agreed! LVM is one of the most important aspects for a enterprise OS. Linux is still in the dust, IMO.

Re:As a real sysadmin (1)

Znork (31774) | more than 10 years ago | (#7319164)

"There's no way, no how that they could write a volume manager or filesystem product that's even in the same league with VxFS and VxVM."

There are already several replacements for VxFS which, while useful, is not very unique. LVM also works as a replacement for VxVM, and there are other alternatives worked on. The alternatives to Veritas also have the huge advantage that they are free and integrated in Linux, which makes a huge difference in what level of PITA it becomes when dealing with it.

I'll gladly pay $2500 for a RedHat AS support contract, but I'm not, _ever_, going back to 'please enter the license key code for your filesystem'.

Re:As a real sysadmin (1)

molo (94384) | more than 10 years ago | (#7319300)

FreeVxFS [mail-archive.com]

There's nothing magical about Veritas's implementation. Today we have FreeVxFS read-only support on Linux 2.4 and 2.6.

QuickIO is a hack, leaving some ugly metadata symlinks around on the filesystem.

-molo

Go SuSe!! (3, Interesting)

dr.Flake (601029) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318476)



It seems to me that a little more competition for RedHat in the server market is a good thing. The stronger (in the form of backing by large compagnies)the competition, the stronger the perception that Linux in the server room is a viable option.

Remember that SuSe is connected to the German goal of designing a groupware server for large work-groups. Seems SuSe is making quite a line-up of products for in the basement of large compagnies.

I wouldn't be too worried. (1)

mattdm (1931) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318500)

Veritas can't even keep up the arrangements it already has. Where's the Netbackup client for Red Hat Linux 9? What's that? Out this summer sometime, huh? Okay.

Re:I wouldn't be too worried. (1)

iggymanz (596061) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318621)

what enterprise is going to be runninng RH 9 for its Oracle, CRM, ERP, etc????? That's hardly a priority for a proprietary software corp.

What about Georgy? (1)

JediTrainer (314273) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318504)

Cool. Maybe they can use Georgy Russell [georgyforgov.com] as their new spokesperson. I understand she works for Veritas (according to the page).

Now to see... (4, Funny)

Doomrat (615771) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318543)

now to see how it all pans out.

Excrutiatingly boringly.

They don't need this competition. (1)

MongooseCN (139203) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318558)

Do Suse and Redhat really need to compete with each other? Fighting Microsoft is bad enough, do they need to fight each other too? I think a better business strategy would be to work together and increase their power.

Re:They don't need this competition. (1)

DataCannibal (181369) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318607)

You mean like, form a cartel, the bastard cousin of a monopoly.

Or do you mean a strategic alliance ? I'm sure Suse is hot for one of those, after their experience with United Linux together with ...er... SCO

As much as I hate monopolies. (1)

MongooseCN (139203) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318635)

I'd rather have a monopoly based on OS/FS rather than proprietary, commercial software. At least with the OS/FS you can do Anything you want with the software.

Re:As much as I hate monopolies. (1)

1010011010 (53039) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318775)


It's more or less impossible to have a monopoly with Free Software. How could there be only a single supplier controlling the development and distribution of Free software? There can't be. It's free.

Re:They don't need this competition. (1)

malkavian (9512) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318767)

Actually, yes they do. A monoculture in Linux is still a monoculture.
Any monoculture leads to stagnation and inherant weaknesses evolving. Competition is what ignites the evolution towards stronger performance and efficiency.
Good ideas from Suse that create a standard will most likely hit a note with the Linux distros as a whole, and be incorporated across the board in short time.
Any silly ideas just won't make the grade, and will be supplanted by real stuff for real people in short order.
Distros on the whole can only be better for the competition in the market place (think where Windows would be if there were multiple competing companies not able to use the law as a beating stick to stop anyone else from entering their territory.. Much much further ahead, more open standards, much easier integration all round, better security, cheaper etc).
This will only make the Microsoft against Linux 'war' easier in the areas Linux is better at, and perhaps even warm up areas that are core MS at the moment.
Besides, it's not about a 'war' with Microsoft. It's about giving people what they want and need. And this is definately a step in the right direction for the end user (admins, companies etc).

Cheers,

Malk

YES! Because Red Hat is slacking on x86-64 (1)

Brian Stretch (5304) | more than 10 years ago | (#7319224)

and SuSE isn't.

C'mon, charging Itanic prices for Red Hat Enterprise for x86-64 and having NO x86-64 support in Fedora Core? What is Red Hat thinking?

SuSE, OTOH, supports the x86-64 chips (AMD Opteron, Athlon 64) much more broadly. As does Mandrake.

Maybe when Red Hat sees users jumping ship to other Linux distros they'll get in gear.

Re:YES! Because Red Hat is slacking on x86-64 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7319785)

Just to be 100% clear -- AMD *paid* SuSE for the AMD64 support.

And, yes, RedHat was heavily funded by Intel in the early days, so perhaps they aren't as AMD-friendly.

Furthermore, as of right now, there's only 1 Opteron box on the market from a major OEM -- a rack server from IBM. There's simply no point in enterprise support if there's no enterprise hardware out there.

SUSE after Red Hat market (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7318573)

After reviewing SUSE 9.0 I'd have to say that they have a long way to go before they can get Red Hat's market. There was no support in SUSE for my SyncMaster which meant the best I could get was 1280x1024 resolution instead of my normal 1600x1024.
SUSE and Red Hat need to support more hardware, especially name brand products.

Competition (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7318616)

It's a highly competitive market after all, Mandrake has just carved out a big slice of LG's market, for example.

good thing(tm) (1)

Rock-n-Rolf (79046) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318682)

As a former employee of SuSE I'm actually delighted to hear that SuSE has managed to partner with one of the upper league software companies besides Oracle and SAP. This is good for both SuSE and Linux in general, at least here in europe.

Veritas Marketing Ideas (2, Interesting)

Joe U (443617) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318743)

I'm looking forward to SuSE using some of Veritas' brilliant marketing.

No, you can't use the older version on that OS, you'll need to upgrade to the version that costs 10x more.

Veritas lost all respect when they shoved a new version of Backup Exec down my throat. Version 7 refused to run on Windows 2000. It even had checks built into the installer to make sure you wouldn't run it on Windows 2000. It had more checks to make sure you couldn't fake the OS version to bypass the check.

Guess what, after hours of tinkering, it ran, and worked. All this, just to do a remote backup of a few important shares.

Veritas - Good Products - Huge Pricetag (2, Interesting)

Tenareth (17013) | more than 10 years ago | (#7318790)


I've been using Veritas in my shop for over 6 years, and I have to say, the Foundation suite is a great product. However, the pricetag has been going through the roof over the past 3 years. The core prices are going up, and they keep seperating out components and then selling them as "add-ons".

Veritas NetBackup still isn't a great system, it's miles behind what OmniBack II from HP does, unfortunately HP Never ported the Cell Server to anything besides HP.

While it might not be so bad if I spend $40,000 on a Filesystem when I spent $1.5Mil on the server, I don't think someone spending $50,000 for a server will want to spend $20,000 on the VM & FS.

Distro-specific (2, Interesting)

phorm (591458) | more than 10 years ago | (#7319004)

I think that there's a danger in any particular distribution of linux gaining too much market, particularly the more commercial ones. Commercial-driver-development has been quite telling in the area of distro-preference, with RedHat (and actually, quite often SuSe already) being the common distros supported by hardware vendors?

What does that mean to me? A lot of hardware comes touted as "supports linux," but when you really get down to it and read the accompanying docs, it means "supports RedHat" or "supports SuSe" and not any others without large amount of hassle. Because of this, it just gets harder for other distros to gain power or popularity in the market, because of the old cycle (and where have we heard this before): users won't use it 'cause it doesn't work (well/easily) on their hardware. Vendors won't fully support it until the user-base increases.

I'd like to see SuSe trim the edges off RedHat a bit, and hopefully some of the distros catch up as well (Debian, or debian-based such as knoppix/morphix). If there were at least a few more major players in the linux market, perhaps we might see more source or at least non-packager-specific (RPM) drivers/etc.

Not interested (2, Interesting)

harlows_monkeys (106428) | more than 10 years ago | (#7319489)

Until they make YaST GPL, I'm not interested. The YaST license does not meet the FSF defition of "free", nor does it meet the Open Source Initiative's defintion of an open source license.

Redhat GPL's their stuff. I can go to dozens of companies and buy cheap copies of Redhat, with only the name changed since Redhat does protect their name. Can't do that with SuSE.

Mandrake (0, Offtopic)

randomErr (172078) | more than 10 years ago | (#7319661)

In mother Russia we only use Mandrake.

Not only is good fruit, is great distro!

Couldn't resist ;)

Re:Mandrake (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7320299)

In Soviet Russia, Mandrake use YOU!

Common Criteria Evaluation (1)

winchester (265873) | more than 10 years ago | (#7320265)

So far, SuSE Enterprise 8.0 is the only Linux version, and actually the only open source product, to have ever undergo Common Criteria evaluation. Currently SuSE holds and EAL 2+, and SuSE and IBM are planning on getting that level up to 3 or 4 (can't remember exactly).
Common Criteria evaluation may seem useless to a lot of people here, and those people have a point, up to a certain extent, but a lot of decision makers want to see a certain EAL, and in some organisations, a certain EAL is mandatory.
So SuSE might actually have quite a nice position... since it is a non-US product, there are farr less problems with encryption as well, which is always nice, even now the US governement has lifted export restrictions.
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