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Java IDE Technical Preview

Cliff posted more than 10 years ago | from the It's-the-new-rave-mahn dept.

Programming 67

A not-so-Anonymous Coward writes: "During a Sun developer 'chalk talk' Thursday, Joe Keller, Sun vice president of Java Web services, said the company will release a preview of the tool, known as Project Rave, that the Santa Clara, Calif., company introduced at its JavaOne conference in June. Sun has touted Project Rave as a rapid application development tool akin to Microsoft Corp.'s Visual Basic. In fact, Sun had its developers study Visual Basic to a great extent while building the tool, Sun sources said. Sounds like .NET is going to get a run for it's money."

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tsarkon reports greased up yoda doll in the anus (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7419677)

8 steps to greasing your anus for yoda doll insertion

1) defecate. preferably after eating senna, ex lax, prunes, cabbage and hot sauces.

2) wipe ass with witch hazel, soothes horrific burns

3) prime anus with anal ease.

4) slather richly a considerable amount of vaseline or other anal lubricants into your rectum at least until the bend and also take your yoda doll or yoda soap on a rope and liberally apply it.

5) pucker your ballon knot several times actuating the sphincter muscle in order to work it in

6) slowly rest yourself onto your yoda figurine

7) make sure to have a mechanism by which to fish yoda out of your rectum, the soap on the rope is especially useful because that is built in.

8) gyrate gleefully in your computer chair while your fat sexless geek nerd loser fat shit self enjoys the prostate massage you'll be getting. Read slashdot. Masturbate to anime. Email one of the editors hoping they will honor you with a reply. Join several more dating services - this time, you dont check the (desired - speaks english) and (desired - literate). You figure you might get a chance then. Order some fucking crap from Think Geek. Get Linux to boot on a Black And Decker Appliance. Wish you could afford a new computer. Argue that IDE is better than SCSI because you cant afford SCSI. Make claims about how Linux rules. Compile a kernel on your 486SX. Claim to hate windows but use it for Everquest. Admire Ghyslain's courage in making that wonderful star wars movie. Officially convert to the Jedi religion. Talk about how cool Mega Tokyo is. Try and make sure you do your regular 50 story submissions to Slashdot, all of which get rejected because people who arent fatter than CowboyNeal can't submit. Fondle shrimpy penis while making a yoda voice and saying, feel the force, padawan, feeel the foooorce, hurgm. Yes. Yes. When 900 years you reach, a dick half as big you will not have.

All in a days work with a yoda figurine rammed up your ass.

Greased Up Yoda Doll is My Lover
Written & composed by Greasedyoda Jackson

He was more like a beauty queen from a star wars movie scene
I said dont mind getting greased up, but what do you mean I am the one?
Who will grease up on the floor in the round
He said I am the one who will get greased up on the floor in the round

He told me his name was Greased up Yoda, as he caused a scene
Then every purple head turned with eyes that dreamed of being the one
Who will grease up on the floor in the round

People always told me be careful of what you do
And dont go around breaking boys rectums
And mother always told me be careful of who you grease up and shove
And be careful of what you do [in the ass] ?cause the lie becomes the truth

Greased p Yoda is my lover
He's just a "girl" who claims that I am the one
But the kid is my greased up Yoda and my son
He says I am the one, but the kid is my greased up Yoda doll!

For forty days and forty nights
The law was on his side
But who can stand when hez in demand
His schemes and plans
cause we greased up on the floor in the round
So take my strong advice, just remember to always shove it up a greased ass twice
(do shove twice)

He told my baby, we where anally gyrating till 3:00
Then he looked at me, he showed me a photo
My anal lover cried, cause his anus wasnt as wide as mine

People always told me be careful of what you do
And dont go around shoving Greased Yoda Dolls in you ass!
He came and stood right up my ass.
Then the smell of sweet anal fumes
This happened much too soon
He called me to his room

Greased Up Yoda Doll is my lover
Hez just a doll who claims that I am the one
But the greasy anal remnants is my son
Greased Up Yoda Doll is my lover
Hez just a guy who claims that I am the one
But the Yoda doll is my anal toy
He says I am the one, but the Doll is in my ass
He says I am the one, but the Doll is in my ass
Greased Up Yoda Doll is my lover
Hez just a doll who claims that I am the one
But the Yoda doll is my anal toy
He says I am the one, but the Doll is in my ass
He says I am the one, but the Doll is in my ass
Greased Up Yoda Doll is my lover
Greased Up Yoda Doll is my lover
Greased Up Yoda Doll is my lover
Greased Up Yoda Doll is my lover
Greased Up Yoda Doll is my lover
Greased Up Yoda Doll is my lover

Project Rave?!? (3, Funny)

El (94934) | more than 10 years ago | (#7419843)

Doesn't this conjure up an image of something developed by people that spend all their free time taking Ecstasy and dancing all night to techno music? Doesn't exactly instill confidence in the product, does it? Give me "Project Squaredance" or "Project Hoedown" any day!

Re:Project Rave?!? (1)

DjReagan (143826) | more than 10 years ago | (#7419865)

Actually, some of the best coders I've come across have been quite partial to spending all night dancing under the influence of class-A's

Re:Project Rave?!? (1)

turgid (580780) | more than 10 years ago | (#7419986)

You can't beat sitting in a field on a warm summer's day, drinking 10 pints of ale and lsitening to guitar-based rock.

Re:Project Rave?!? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7423024)

Well, you can surely beat the person sitting the field drinking the 10 pints of ale and listening to guitar-based rock. Although, I guess I've never heard any lute or harp based rock.

Re:Project Rave?!? (1)

turgid (580780) | more than 10 years ago | (#7428276)

Although, I guess I've never heard any lute or harp based rock.

Ah, then you are not fimiliar with the work of REM?

Re:Project Rave?!? (2, Funny)

Hypocritical Guy (674824) | more than 10 years ago | (#7420527)

Some of the biggest idiots I've come across have been quite partial to spending all night dancing under the influence of class-A's.

Re:Project Rave?!? (1)

DjReagan (143826) | more than 10 years ago | (#7424213)

Which proves my point that theres a huge range of people who do that sort of thing. Hence any claims of code-quality lacking due to the product being named "Rave" is stupidly ludicrous.

Re:Project Rave?!? (1)

Hypocritical Guy (674824) | more than 10 years ago | (#7424791)

Hence any claims of code-quality lacking due to the product being named "Rave" is stupidly ludicrous.

No doubt. It still gives people the image of moron pill-popping ravers with lollipops in their mouth giving each other massages. A perfectly good word like "rave" has been ruined forever.

Re:Project Rave?!? (1)

turgid (580780) | more than 10 years ago | (#7428282)

I just have one more thing to say to you:

Techno techno handbag disco.

Re:Project Rave?!? (0, Offtopic)

BoomerSooner (308737) | more than 10 years ago | (#7420637)

And the subsequent brain damage that occurs will certainly affect their future ability to be productive members of society. Hopefully, they'll lay off the drugs before they end up living in a van down by the river.

Re:Project Rave?!? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7421183)

hahah, another drug war brainwashee

Re:Project Rave?!? (1)

aled (228417) | more than 10 years ago | (#7421919)

How that's different to burn your brains programming all night?

Re:Project Rave?!? (1)

Zero_K (606548) | more than 10 years ago | (#7427153)

I think that BoomerSooner might have been making a reference to a Saturday night live skit with chris farely..."you'll end you living in a van down by the river smoking dwebies"

Your sig (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7422143)

"When I grow up, I want to be a weirdo."

Congradulations. You've succeeded.

Yeeeehhhhaaaawwww!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7429816)

> Give me "Project Squaredance" or "Project Hoedown"
> any day!

Doesn't this conjure up an image of a bunch of hyperactive code cowboys furiously coding at the keyboard and changing seats every few minutes?

No thanks. Code cowboys can really mess up a team, and hyperactive hypercaffienated programmers can drive you *CRAZY* changing arguing and changing subjects every few seconds before you have time to respond.

No thanks. Give me a nice boring "Project Rhumba" or "Project Salsa" or even "Project Disco" any day!

Re:Yeeeehhhhaaaawwww!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7429843)

> Give me a nice boring "Project Rhumba" or
> "Project Salsa" or even "Project Disco" any day!

I vote for "Project Disco".

My boss "Does the hustle" trying to get us to work 14 hour days in this "Disco Inferno" where I work. We stay because we have to be "Staying Alive" earning "Money, Money, Money". But we're "Super Trouper"s so "I will survive".

java is dead (0, Insightful)

larry bagina (561269) | more than 10 years ago | (#7419845)

Like many people, I swallowed the Sun media machine, hook line and sinker. Sun failed to deliver. Fool me once, shame on you Fool me twice, shame on me.

So I (and everyone else) was more skeptical when c#/.net/clr was announced. MS has the advantage of time -- faster machines, more memory -- and they saw what SUN did wrong.

I won't drink the .net koolaid, but I have contributed code to the .mono project.

As for java, the days are numbered. Many companies are now refusing to touch java since MS JVM will be unsupported (I argued with our R/D VP for two hours, I showed him the Sun, IBM, and Blockdown JVM... it didn't matter). Our .jsp pages are being converted to .csp (better db performace and easier maintenance).

Java is resigned to a niche market of server backends. C# might fare better for GUI apps, but not until LongHorn (by which time CPU speed will run it better).

Re:java is dead (-1, Offtopic)

Gaijin42 (317411) | more than 10 years ago | (#7420037)

Why would .Net apps have to wait for longhorn. My company is doing everything in .Net just fine on XP with no issues.

GUI apps, and

Re:java is dead (4, Informative)

chochos (700687) | more than 10 years ago | (#7420068)

I'm at a Microsoft event for Software Architects right now, and a lot of people that I've been talking to in here (working at companies that are Microsoft partners), have told me that they have many customers that want development in Java. That came as a surprise to me, being my first Microsoft event, I never thought I would hear so much talk about Java from the people here (I've also heard the "L" word, and have even uttered it several times to see people's reaction - yes it's childish, I know, but I'm a little bored).

Microsoft themselves have said in some conferences that they expect their customers to have a lot of different technologies in their infrastructure and that it's rather rare to find an all-Microsoft infrastructure at a company. And when they say non-Microsoft they usually mean Java (they've said a couple of times).

Re:java is dead (1)

leerpm (570963) | more than 10 years ago | (#7429084)

That is because the world has woken up to the fact that writing most applications in managed code (.Net and Java for example) is a good idea. No more buffer overflows, no array out-of-bounds, no crazy user input bringing the whole system down, no more worrying about details of memory management and resource leaks.

C++ and C should be used only where they are needed. In the kernel of the OS, and in applications that absolutely need to touch to levels below what the OS normally handles, like RDBMS do.

I agree (1)

hargettp (74445) | more than 10 years ago | (#7429321)

I think we're heading to a world where all kernel-space code (on your favorite kernel) is C/C++, and all user-space code is, as you put it, managed code: VM, .NET, or others (e.g., a good open source Smalltalk VM [] . Hate to give Microsoft credit, but if they succeed in delivering the vision of Longhorn they recently articulated, then Microsoft may push the industry into this model.

Re:java is dead (1)

stefanlasiewski (63134) | more than 10 years ago | (#7420127)

Many companies are now refusing to touch java since MS JVM will be unsupported (I argued with our R/D VP for two hours, I showed him the Sun, IBM, and Blockdown JVM... it didn't matter).

Our .jsp pages are being converted to .csp

Why does the MS JVM have any influence on your .jsp pages?

Re:java is dead (1)

saden1 (581102) | more than 10 years ago | (#7422178)

Hehe. MS JVM died back in 1999 and has nothing to do with J2EE technology. About the only thing that used MS JVM are apps developed using Visual J++.

Re:java is dead (1)

michaelggreer (612022) | more than 10 years ago | (#7420239)

Java is resigned to a niche market of server backends
Hardly a niche market, my friend. For consumers, perhaps, but for businesses this is and will be a huge need.

Re:java is dead (4, Interesting)

Pengo (28814) | more than 10 years ago | (#7420479)

C# is splendid on the client, if your deploying to windows. Much better than Java in my opinion. But on the server side, C# has a long ways to go before I would ever trust it for a massively scalable project. Frankly java does the job, and does it VERY well on the server side.

C# has very very limmited options on the server side. In Java I have massive selection of JVM's, --> SERVER PLATFORMS -- , servlet containers, EJB containers, IDE's.

As a matter of fact, I can't think of a single tier 1 player other than borland jumping in line to give balmer a rim-job and provide technology at a infrastructure level for C# .NET.

Frankly, I have been burnt by microsoft enough times, that I won't do anything with .NET unless it's a client deployed application that I understand will be limited to a 9x/win2k/XP environment. Java would of been my next choice if we had to suport macs or linux, but we don't.

Also, to say that database performance is higher with C# is frankly bullshit. I would venture to say that eventually things will improve with C#/CLR based applications, but performance is not a factor between the two. Usually good design implimentation is what determines how well an application runs, not the environment that it runs in.

BMP/CMP ejb implimentations where hugely misused in early days of EJB. Now that the technology and the people that use it have matured, you can build a VERY scalable and robust solution without any problem.

to say that C# is perfect, even VS .NET is perfect is frankly a joke too. I have had more than once had to do cludgey work-arounds because the code that the IDE generates when moving a widget causes a problem. Many things are improving in the newer version of VS.NET , but again... lets see.

Frankly people that say that Java is loosing ground in the enterprise have no idea what they are talking about and are quite out of touch with whats really happening.

How many european / asian firms would you believe are jumping up-and-down to impliment a lockin-microsoft solution at this point in the game? not many that I know of. Many US organizations are b ecoming more scheptical as well. Possibly because they have found they are tired of being ass-rammed by security/quality issues that come as a concequence of those decisions.

Microsoft made a mistake not launching a Java alternative early on, but like the internet, they are late to the game and will build on other peoples ideas/mistakes.. but I am scheptical that C# is going to knock java into insignificane until there ar eas many options for C# as there are for Java. That means microsoft letting go of the control, and frankly.. if you believe that will happen, I have land to sell you in the middle of the Great Salt Lake.

Re:java is dead (1)

Antity-H (535635) | more than 10 years ago | (#7420729)

Java would of been my next choice if we had to suport macs or linux, but we don't.
Though I like Java very much and would love to be able to agree with you, it must be mentionned that sun doesn't provide a PPC native JVM, and that the other JVM are not as advanced as sun's.
Therefore the "Write once, run anywhere" credo is pretty flawed when it comes to face the real world. Sun's JVM may run on a PPC in x86 emulated mode but it's slow as hell (A friend of mine, who is a mac user, showed it to me while we were arguing about java)

Re:java is dead (1)

aricusmaximus (300760) | more than 10 years ago | (#7427865)

Good to hear you're basing an oh-so-informed opinion on second-hand delcarations from your friend.

Given that there's no apparent Sun JVM for PPC [] and Apple's JVM seems to be pretty damn close behind Sun's [] , I do believe you need to do some simple fact-checking before relaying garbage from your friend's mouth to Slashdot.

Please mod parent down for lack of clue.

Re:java is dead (1)

Antity-H (535635) | more than 10 years ago | (#7428938)

Actually I just checked the sun link you provide and still couldn't find an apparent PPC JVM from sun. I also checked the supported systems [] page from sun for its JVM and it seems to be confirmed that PPC isn't supported directly from sun.

As for the Apple JVM, I can't test it directly provided I don't own a mac but, the 1.4.2 JVM offered by Apple is a developer preview. It may be as good and as stable as sun's but there are no warranty about it.

Re:java is dead (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7428301)

But tell me what you really feel, Sparky.

Re:java is dead (1)

leerpm (570963) | more than 10 years ago | (#7429112)

Frankly, I have been burnt by microsoft enough times, that I won't do anything with .NET unless it's a client deployed application that I understand will be limited to a 9x/win2k/XP environment. Java would of been my next choice if we had to suport macs or linux, but we don't.

There are a lot of good things about .Net that actually made it a decent choice for the server, IF you are a pure-Windows shop already. VS.Net makes building web services and such very, very easy to do. So please do not dismiss .Net as junk relegated to the client only. I will agree it is not as mature as Java, but to deny that it has any advantages over Java is being blind.

Not all projects are the same, and sometimes it really does make sense to use one tool over another.

Re:java is dead (1)

Pengo (28814) | more than 10 years ago | (#7453788)

Very true not all projects are the same. But, i said that for (i try not to make ubiquitous statements for blindly for everyone), but i have found that lockin without an option has been nothing but problems.

If .NET is a great technology and your entire team knows it, hold onto it. Trust that your single vendor choice will not let you down. Use it on server.. definately use it on the client. On the same note, C# is not 'harder' to learn and use than someone with a decent amount of experience with Java. i would NEVER even consider moving to C# as a platform until there are more commerical choices. (I don't use Tomcat as a app server for example, it's crap.. I use commercial app servers for our cluster...) Anyway, if MS turned out to have a mediocre solution on C#, your technology is bound without a choice.

If the mistake doesn't have any real concequence, it doesn't matter... for me to make a huge lock-in mistake that leaves the organiation is a vote of lack-of-confidence that would probably cost me my job.

C# isn't 'crap' on the desktop. We have bet BIG on that horse, and I don't think it's going to let us down.


TROLL: +1 ignorant (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7420509)

How frequently do you leave your moms basement?


Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7421872)

Mod DOWN!!!

Re:java is dead (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7422475)

LongHorn my ass. If you know anything about enterprise applications and building systems that have to support a significant number of concurrent users, you would have first hand experience seeing SQL Server slow to a crawl. What's worse is for transactional stuff, if it is not processed asynchronously one by one, it pretty much dies. I'm not trolling and this isn't stuff based on what some one else told me. It's from first hand experience benchmarking .NET applications I am actively developing. In fact the scalability factor sucks big time. It's great for small and medium sized companies with less than 200 employees. I know for a fact companies like Fidelity are investing further in J2EE and so are many of the top 20 financial companies on Wall Street. Even chris brumme, who works on .NET CLR admits to the weaknesses of .NET. Java isn't perfect by a long shot, but it is far more mature and scales 10x better than .NET. If you don't believe me, go ask why companies like Merril, Fidelity, Schwab and BOA why they use J2EE on their heavy transaction systems. Also, ask them why they kicked out latent zero, Charles river and other windows Order management systems. Simply put, it blows chunks and scales like crap. These are verifiable facts, not some rumor.

Re:java is dead (3, Informative)

chicogeek (688521) | more than 10 years ago | (#7424647)

"It's from first hand experience benchmarking .NET applications I am actively developing. In fact the scalability factor sucks big time."

First of all, perhaps you should analyze how you're misusing the framework. I develop an application that is used by 400+ people at one major US entity, it is 100% .NET on the client and SQL Server on the backend. I have had 0 problems with performance on the backend and this app is not only highly-transactional, but also throws an OLAP front-end into the mix. You're obviously doing something wrong if you can't build a scalable enterprise application using .NET and SQL Server. And quoting Brumme like wonder you posted AC. If someone would like to read the Brumme blog, go here [] . It's all very good information.

Re:java is dead (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7430006)

> LongHorn my ass.

That about sums up what happens when you commit your business to Microsoft.

Thanks for the new sig.;-)

Re:java is dead (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7439169)

Forget about performance. Just think about this one: In four years is your .NET app going to need to be rewritten because MS no longer supports the runtime and/or Visual Studio.NET V1? Probably. On the other hand Java will still be supported.


Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7419857)

I love java, but I'm sick of compiling .jar files from the fucking command line.

This shit looks nice.

w0w (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7419890)

j00 r teh 1nf0r/\/\471v0


saden1 (581102) | more than 10 years ago | (#7422132)

Get Eclipse IDE, it will do it for you. All you have to do is right-click on your source package, select export then Jar files. Then you'll get a nice GUI wizard that will walk you through the creation of jar files and then do it for you.

Open Source base kept secret (4, Informative)

bartash (93498) | more than 10 years ago | (#7419948)

Rave is based on NetBeans [] technology but they don't mention that in the article.

Re:Open Source base kept secret (1)

Pengo (28814) | more than 10 years ago | (#7420340)

Personally I think netbeans is best kept a secret. It's Java's attempt at being emacs for all I can tell. I find myself to be MUCH more productive with Eclipse or IDEA.

Re:Open Source base kept secret (1)

joshsnow (551754) | more than 10 years ago | (#7420701)

Rave is based on NetBeans technology but they don't mention that in the article.

Actually, there's a sidebar titled "Enabling technologies" which lists netbeans as one of the enablers.

However, the importance of this tool isn't in the netbeans base, it's in the integration of the server side J2EE tech etc.

Re:Open Source base kept secret (1)

eddy the lip (20794) | more than 10 years ago | (#7421680)

It looks like I'm going to be getting into the Java game very soon (and really looking forward to it - I've been wanting to find an excuse to put the time into it). I haven't looked at Java IDEs since NetBeans way back (just pre J2EE, if I recall). Anyway, I'm looking for an IDE I can love, having been generally skeptical of them. I've used emacs or vim for almost everything.

What would be ideal is something that plays extra-nice with JBoss and won't get in my way, which is my usual complaint with IDEs. I'm leaning toward Eclipse with the JBoss plugins, but I'm curious to know what others think. Anyone care to recommend their favorite?

Re:Open Source base kept secret (2, Insightful)

aled (228417) | more than 10 years ago | (#7421926)

Use whatever you like best and you can pay (Netbeans, Jbuilder, idea, eclipse, vim, emacs, notepad, command line, etc).
No IDE is the best, they all have their woes.

Eclipse is pretty solid (2, Insightful)

jtheory (626492) | more than 10 years ago | (#7422557)

I've been using Eclipse for about a year for some large J2EE projects, and I've been very happy with it. I had been using JBuilder since version 2 (!), and switched over when the price suddenly became an issue (my employer folded). I've really come to depend on the refactoring support, which is why I can never understand the diehards who refuse to use an IDE.... I always use the latest milestone release (they've all been very stable). IDEA is also well-known as a good refactoring IDE, though I haven't used it due to the price. I tried out NetBeans some time ago (2-3 years ago?) and wasn't fond of it, though I haven't been back to re-evaluate it.

One thing -- if you ever need to get into building Java GUIs, JBuilder still has the best RAD GUI designer that I've seen, in terms of generating sensible code that you can tweak by hand (within limits), and then use the designer again. GridBagLayout code was never intended to be hand-written! I don't spend much time with Java GUIs anymore, but when I need to I always do the initial cut in JBuilder (the Personal version is free).

Re:Eclipse is pretty solid (1)

eddy the lip (20794) | more than 10 years ago | (#7430342)

Thanks for the reply. Refactoring is going to be a major issue on the project I'm looking at (cleaning up offshored code ;) ), so knowing that is very helpful. And it's all server-side, so GUIs aren't an issue for me at this point.

I've been a die-hard non-IDE type for a long time, although I like to keep my options open and revisit the state of IDEs fairly often. It's looking like some features of IDEs (managing project files, for example) are going to be helpful enough on this one that I can move away from my beloved vim for some things at least. Although if I can get vim keybindings, too, I'll be really happy. Hell, I have a nasty tendency to send emails that end in :wq.

Re:Eclipse is pretty solid (1)

ProfKyne (149971) | more than 10 years ago | (#7431608)

I used Eclipse at my last job, but now I'm fortunate enough to be using WebSphere Studio Application Developer, which is essentially Eclipse on steroids -- same core technology, but far more features. Anyway, the point wasn't to gloat about WSAD but to support the OP who said that the refactoring support is incredible -- in fact, I really can't imagine working on a large code base without it, now that I've become addicted to its convenience and ease of use. Even something as simple as "rename", no global search and replace can touch the speed, reliability, and convenience with which I reassign better names to locals, members, and classes.

And the refactoring features are all present in the free Eclipse 2.0, so you don't need to pay the primo dollars for WSAD if refactoring ease is your main attraction to an IDE.

Eclipse + MyEclipse (2, Informative)

LauraW (662560) | more than 10 years ago | (#7422935)

For J2EE, try Eclipse plus the "MyEclipse Enterprise Workbench [] " plugins. They do a pretty good job of integrating lots of other open-source J2EE plugins into something that's easy to maintain. And at $30/year it's hard to beat.

Re:Eclipse + MyEclipse (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7429176)

Wow, thanks for that link. I visited their website and found a feature list:

Web Development Tools
  • Smart editors with code completion and syntax coloring: JSP, HTML, XML, CSS, and J2EE deployment descriptors.
  • JSP syntax validation and native JSP debugging - full support for JSR045.
  • Step Through Debuging for Included JSP Files
  • JSP Rendering
  • Support for JSP 2.0 expression language
  • Customizable creation templates for JSP's HTML, XML, Servlets, and Applets.
  • Integrated browser for real-time rendering.
  • XDoclet Support
Productivity Wizards
  • Creation of Web, EAR and EJB projects.
  • Java Project to Web Project enablements.
  • WAR, JAR and EAR import and export.
  • EJB Wizards
  • Sync-on Demand automated deployment of applications to integrated servers.
  • Archive Based Deployment (EAR & WAR)
Application Server Integration
  • Over 20 application server connectors including Bejy Tiger, JBoss, Jetty, Jonas, JRun, Oracle,
  • Orion, Resin, Tomcat, WebLogic and WebSphere.
  • Integrated controls for starting, stopping servers.
  • Full hot swap debugging support for deployed applications.
Packaging and Installation
  • Windows, Linux and Mac OS/X support.
  • Professional installer.
  • Auto update enabled
  • Free online support.
  • Documentation and tutorials.
(ps. No, I am not affiliated! I just thought if people actually saw that whole list they would be really thankful)

Re:Eclipse + MyEclipse (1)

eddy the lip (20794) | more than 10 years ago | (#7430357)

Cool, thanks! That does look like an excellent package. The feature list that AC posted as a response is enough to make me take a serious look at it. Particularly "WAR, JAR and EAR import and export", "Archive Based Deployment" and Jboss support. Handy, indeed.

Java Sucks (proof included, goatse link too) (-1)

Captain Goatse (715400) | more than 10 years ago | (#7420022)

# It's hard to live with none of: lexically scoped local functions; a macro system; and inlined functions.

# I really hate the lack of downward-funargs; anonymous classes are a lame substitute. (I can live without long-lived closures, but I find lack of function pointers a huge pain.)

# The fact that static methods aren't really class methods (they're actually global functions: you can't override them in a subclass) is pretty dumb.

# It's far from obvious how one hints that a method should be inlined, or otherwise go real fast. Does `final' do it? Does `private final' do it? Given that there is no preprocessor to let you do per-function shorthand, and no equivalent of Common Lisp's flet (or even macrolet), one ends up either duplicating code, or allowing the code to be inefficient. Those are both bad choices.

# Two identical byte[] arrays aren't equal and don't hash the same. Maybe this is just a bug, but:

* You can't fix this by subclassing Hashtable.

* You can't fix this by subclassing Array because it's not really an object. What you can do is wrap an Object around an Array and let that implement hashCode and equals by digging around in its contained array, but that adds not-insignificant memory overhead (16 bytes per object, today.)

* Gee, I know, I'll write my own hash table. I've only done that a thousand times.

# I can't seem to manage to iterate the characters in a String without implicitly involving half a dozen method calls per character.

# The other alternative is to convert the String to a byte[] first, and iterate the bytes, at the cost of creating lots of random garbage.

# Generally, I'm dissatisfied with the overhead added by Unicode support in those cases where I'm sure that there are no non-ASCII characters. There ought to be two subclasses of an abstract String class, one that holds Unicode, and one that holds 8-bit quantities. They should offer identical APIs and be indistinguishable, except for the fact that if a string has only 8-bit characters, it takes up half as much memory!

* Of course, String being final eliminates even the option of implementing that.

# Interfaces seem a huge, cheesy copout for avoiding multiple inheritance; they really seem like they were grafted on as an afterthought. Maybe there's a good reason for them being the way they are, but I don't see it; it looks like they were just looking for a way to multiply-inherit methods without allowing call-next-method and without allowing instance variables?

# This ``integers aren't objects'' nonsense really pisses me off. Why did they do that? Is the answer as lame as, ``we wanted the `int' type to be 32 bits instead of 31''? (You only really need one bit of type on the pointer if you don't need small conses, after all.)

The way this bit me is, I've got code that currently takes an array of objects, and operates on them in various opaque ways (all it cares about is equality, they're just cookies.) I was thinking of changing these objects to be shorts instead of objects, for compactness of their containing objects: they'd be indexes into a shared table, instead of pointers to shared objects.

To do this, I would have to rewrite that other code to know that they're shorts instead of objects. Because one can't assign a short to a variable or argument that expects an Object, and consequently, one can't invoke the equal method on a short.

Wrapping them up in Short objects would kind of defeat the purpose: then they'd be bigger than the pointer to the original object rather than smaller.

# And in related news, it's a total pain that one can't iterate over the contents of an array without knowing intimate details about its contents: you have to know whether it's byte[], or int[], or Object[]. I mean, it is not rocket science to have a language that can transparently access both boxed and unboxed storage. It's not as if Java isn't doing all the requisite runtime type checks already! It's as if they went out of their way to make this not work...

Is there some philosophical point I'm missing? Is the notion of separating your algorithms from your data structures suddenly no longer a part of the so-called ``object oriented'' pantheon?

# After all this time, people still think that integer overflow is better than degrading to bignums, or raising an exception?

Of course, they have Bignums now (ha!) All you have to do (ha!) is rewrite your code to look like this:

result = x.add(y.multiply(BigInteger.valueOf(7))).pow(3).ab s().setBit(27);

Note that some parameters must be BigIntegers, and some must be ints, and some must be longs, with largely no rhyme or reason. (This complaint is in the ``language'' section and not the ``library'' section because this shit should be part of the language, i.e., at the syntax level.)

# I miss typedef. If I have integers that represent something, I can't make type assertions about them except that they are ints. Unless I'm willing to swaddle them in blankets by wrapping Integer objects around them.

# Similarly, I think the available idioms for simulating enum and :keywords are fairly lame. (There's no way for the compiler to issue that life-saving warning, ``enumeration value `x' not handled in switch'', for example.)

They go to the trouble of building a single two-element enumerated type into the language (Boolean) but won't give us a way to define our own?

# As far as I can see, there's no efficient way to implement `assert' or `#ifdef DEBUG'. Java gets half a point for this by promising that if you have a static final boolean, then conditionals that use it will get optimized away if appropriate. This means you can do things like

if (randomGlobalObject.DEBUG) { assert(whatever, "whatever!"); }

but that's so gratuitously verbose that it makes my teeth hurt. (See also, lack of any kind of macro system.)

# By having `new' be the only possible interface to allocation, and by having no back door through which you can escape from the type safety prison, there are a whole class of ancient, well-known optimizations that one just cannot perform. If something isn't done about this, the language is never going to be fast enough for some tasks, no matter how good the JITs get. And ``write once run everywhere'' will continue to be the marketing fantasy that it is today.

# I sure miss multi-dispatch. (The CLOS notion of doing method lookup based on the types of all of the arguments, rather than just on the type of the implicit zero'th argument, this).

# The finalization system is lame. Worse than merely being lame, they brag about how lame it is! To paraphrase the docs: ``Your object will only be finalized once, even if it's resurrected in finalization! Isn't that grand?!'' Post-mortem finalization was figured out years ago and works well. Too bad Sun doesn't know that.

# Relatedly, there are no ``weak pointers.'' Without weak pointers and a working finalization system, you can't implement a decent caching mechanism for, e.g., a communication framework that maintains proxies to objects on other machines, and likewise keeps track of other machines' references to your objects.

# You can't close over anything but final variables in an inner class! Their rationale is that it might be ``confusing.'' Of course you can get the effect you want by manually wrapping your variables inside of one-element arrays. The very first time I tried using inner classes, I got bitten by this -- that is, I naively attempted to modify a closed-over variable and the compiler complained at me, so I in fact did the one-element array thing. The only other time I've used inner classes, again, I needed the same functionality; I started writing it the obvious way and let out a huge sigh of frustration when, half way through, I realized what I had done and manually walked back through the code turning my

Object foo = ;


final Object[] foo = { };

and all the occurence of foo into foo[0]. Arrrgh!

# The access model with respect to the mutability (or read-only-ness) of objects blows. Here's an example:, out and err (the stdio streams) are all final variables. They didn't used to be, but some clever applet-writer realized that you could change them and start intercepting all output and do all sorts of nasty stuff. So, the whip-smart folks at Sun went and made them final. But hey! Sometimes it's okay to change them! So, they also added System.setIn, setOut, and setErr methods to change them!

``Change a final variable?!'' I hear you cry. Yep. They sneak in through native code and change finals now. You might think it'd give 'em pause to think and realize that other people might also want to have public read-only yet privately writable variables, but no.

Oh, but it gets even better: it turns out they didn't really have to sneak in through native code anyway, at least as far as the JVM is concerned, since the JVM treats final variables as always writable to the class they're defined in! There's no special case for constructors: they're just always writable. The javac compiler, on the other hand, pretends that they're only assignable once, either in static init code for static finals or once per constructor for instance variables. It also will optimize access to finals, despite the fact that it's actually unsafe to do so.

# Something else related to this absurd lack of control over who can modify an object and who cannot is that there is no notion of constant space: constantry is all per-class, not per-object. If I've got a loop that does

String foo = "x";

it does what you'd expect, because the loader happens to have special-case magic that interns strings, but if I do:

String foo[] = { "x", "y" };

then guess what, it conses up a new array each time through the loop! Um, thanks, but don't most people expect literal constants to be immutable? If I wanted to copy it, I would copy it. The language also should impose the contract that literal constants are immutable.

Even without the language having immutable objects, a non-losing compiler could eliminate the consing in some limited situations through static analysis, but I'm not holding my breath.

Using final on variables doesn't do anything useful in this case; as far as I can tell, the only reason that final works on variables at all is to force you to specify it on variables that are closed over in inner classes.

# The locking model is broken.

* First, they impose a full word of overhead on each and every object, just in case someone somewhere sometime wants to grab a lock on that object. What, you say that you know that nobody outside of your code will ever get a pointer to this object, and that you do your locking elsewhere, and you have a zillion of these objects so you'd like them to take up as little memory as possible? Sorry. You're screwed.

* Any piece of code can assert a lock on an object and then never un-lock it, causing deadlocks. This is a gaping security hole for denial-of-service attacks.

In any half-way-rational design, the lock associated with an object would be treated just like any other slot, and only methods statically ``belonging'' to that class could frob it.

But then you get into the bug of Java not doing closures properly. See, you want to write a method:

public synchronized void with_this_locked (thunk f)
f.funcall ();

but then actually writing any code becomes a disaster because of the mind-blowing worthlessness of inner classes.

# There is no way to signal without throwing: that is, there is no way to signal an exceptional condition, and have some condition handler tell you ``go ahead and proceed anyway.'' By the time the condition handler is run, the excepting scope has already been exited.

# The distinction between slots and methods is stupid. Doing foo.x should be defined to be equivalent to foo.x(), with lexical magic for ``foo.x = ...'' assignment. Compilers should be trivially able to inline zero-argument accessor methods to be inline object+offset loads. That way programmers wouldn't break every single one of their callers when they happen to change the internal implementation of something from something which happened to be a ``slot'' to something with slightly more complicated behavior.

# The notion of methods "belonging" to classes is lame. Anybody anytime should be allowed to defined new, non-conflicting methods on any class (without overriding existing methods.) This causes no abstraction-breakage, since code which cares couldn't, by definition, be calling the new, ``externally-defined'' methods.

This is just another way of saying that the pseudo-Smalltalk object model loses and that generic functions (suitably constrained by the no-external-overrides rule) win.

Original Article []

Goatse []

Trollse(Made for the /.ers, a SCO joke, not offensive unless you are a linux loving, SCO hating, kernel compiling fat fag) []

What Rave is really (3, Insightful)

adamy (78406) | more than 10 years ago | (#7420428)

Is a drag and drop editor for Java Server Faces.

THey are doing a Direct To DB binding as well.

Something like this has been neede for a long while, let's just hope that once something is developed in Rave, it can be integrated with other tools (straight Java code) while allowing the people Using Rave to continue to update as well.

Re:What Rave is really (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7420687)

How is this different than Borland's JBuilder [] ?

Re:What Rave is really (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7421403)

Yuck, Java Server Faeces.

Re:What Rave is really (1)

saden1 (581102) | more than 10 years ago | (#7422142) heavy-wight for my taste.

Hmm.... isn't this J2EE with a new face? (0, Redundant)

Randolpho (628485) | more than 10 years ago | (#7420836)

See the subject. Seriously, what does Project Rave give me that standard J2EE technologies don't already?

Or are they talking a new IDE? Something to compete with Visual Studio .NET?

If so, I hope it's not based on NetBeans...


At last...? (4, Informative)

joshsnow (551754) | more than 10 years ago | (#7420838)

Could Sun finally have seen the light? Back in 1999, Sun purchased an Enterprise Software company called Forte Software. Forte (not to be confused with the Netbeans rebrand) was an application suite which achieved what J2EE achieves now - but completely painlessly.

All of the plumbing was hidden from developers, leaving them free to concentrate on business logic. Forte shipped with a complete Application Framework and its own language the Transactional Object Oriented Language(TOOL).

Basically (to cut a long story short) Java looked as if it had more potential at the time, so Forte was rebranded to Sun ONE Unified Development Server [] and allowed to wither. It's officially being end-of-lined by Q1 next year.

The point here is that this Project Rage seems very much like Unified server - but it works in Javaland. It (hopefully) hides all the plumbing of a J2EE application from developers, allowing them to concentrate on business logic. If it's more than Suns version of Eclipse, then it'll certainly be a product to watch. I hope Sun get it right this time and that it's not too late.

Where this leaves IBM and Weblogic remains to be seen - unless this Rage integrates with their app servers. It ought to - seamlessly of course...

Re:At last...? (4, Interesting)

TioHoltzman (709089) | more than 10 years ago | (#7421967)

You, my friend, have obviously never had the "pleasure" of working with Forte. I had the utterly miserable misfortune to spend a year on an all forte project at a large US Tire company from the very begining to the intial deployment of the software to the users.

And it sucked beyound belief.

The "IDE" that forte provided was a piece of shit (and that's putting it mildly). It was quirky to develop in, ungodly slow, resource intensive, brain dead peice of heaping crap.

Our CS intern that we got on the project quickly renamed the the language to Forte Objected Oriented Langauge (FOOL).

Deploying to 5, that's right folks, 5 machines was an utter nightmare, and took 3 of us to keep it going.

On the other hand you could partition the application to run on different machines. Useful of course, when the application actually ran.

From a language standpoint, the "plumbing" was indeed hidden from you. It was absurdly easy to talk to objects cross process or cross machines.

The problem was everything else was an amateurish piece of shit that rarely worked the way Forte claimed it did. And we had a consultant working with us to iron out all the problems (at $250 an hour, thank you very much).

And when we finally got it to run, the app ran SO slowly, that he had to hand massage the generated C++ (TOOL/FOOL doesn't itself get compiled - it generated C++ which was then compiled) and add a whole bunch of custom stuff, of course none of this was explained or documented, it Just Worked (well sort of - by the time I left the project, the users HATED the app so much because it was clunky and slow, that they never really used it - it was faster to calculate the retirement calcs by hand than to deal with the app).

So, yeah, Forte was a real good platform to base stuff off of.


2 years Forte exp? (1)

joshsnow (551754) | more than 10 years ago | (#7425688)

You, my friend, have obviously never had the "pleasure" of working with Forte.

I have actually - two years worth back in 1997 through 1999 for a CRM company in the UK.

I agree that by mordern standards the IDE is dated - but I disagree strongly about everything apart from app partitioning being an "amateurish piece of shit". In fact, in my experience, I'd have to say the exact opposite. The whole thing was so tightly integrated that everything just worked.

Ok, so we ran into some problems with repository corruptions and a few integration issues, but these were easily surmountable in the first instance by making regular backups and usuing a versions of FTEXEC which were known not to have showstopping bugs and in the second by simple management.

Not sure what your performance issues were, but we quickly discovered that in order to make the app scale to the 200+ desktops it was to run on, we had to implement a seemingly convoluted design pattern using DataFactories, Data Access Controllers and a mechanism for managing the database connections and minimising network traffic.

We also had to provide object level transaction management - easily impemented using inheiritance and interfaces.

From what I remember, if the application wasn't designed to be efficient, then you would see problems if you tried to scale it beyond 5 - 10 machines.

From a language standpoint, the "plumbing" was indeed hidden from you. It was absurdly easy to talk to objects cross process or cross machines

Exactly. This is the lesson I'm hoping Sun has learned with this Rave product. Unfourtanately, currently, to produce really efficient J2EE apps requires knowledge of how the EJBs etc work.

BTW, it's nice to meet someone on slashdot who knows that Forte isn't Netbeans!

Java IDE? (1)

mabster (470642) | more than 10 years ago | (#7421785)

I don't get it. What does this one have that JBuilder [] hasn't had for about five years? Or am I missing something?

Licensing Plans? (1)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 10 years ago | (#7421827)

Is this to be under a GPL type of license ( or that sun community license thingy ) or will it be 100% commercial and priced out of reach of us amateurs?

They opened Netbeans when they bought it.. Speaking of which, i suppose this means the death of sun contributed items to NB.

Id like to see something like this for Python personally as current python IDE's are dismal.... But at least java is platform independent so its still potentially cool...

Re:Licensing Plans? (1)

leerpm (570963) | more than 10 years ago | (#7429195)

I doubt it will be free. But hopefully they do not make it $1000/seat, and relegate the tool to the dustpin. If they charge around $100-$150, and the tool works I can see it becoming very popular.

umm, except not (4, Insightful)

RevAaron (125240) | more than 10 years ago | (#7421898)

This doesn't look like it'll be replacing .NET or VB anytime soon. It looks like an IDE for JSP-based sites, not something that will replace VB as a quick-n-dirty IDE for end-user apps nor will it be anything like .NET, which goes far beyond one language and one way of doing things, as Java+Sun provide.

But then again, it's not out, I've not used it, so I can't say that for sure. It looks like an equivalent to an ASP-builder, which can use VBScript.

Java the language could not simply out-VB VB. The language itself is too complicated in ways that will not be solved by a GUI builder. Java could be used as the platform for a language and IDE akin to VB, but taking Java the language and adding an IDE will not make many VB coders productive without doing all the learning of Java that any other Java coder has gone through.

Re:umm, except not (1)

leerpm (570963) | more than 10 years ago | (#7429212)

Yes, it looks like it is tailored to building web applications and web services. Though with the current direction of the industry, I think more and more applications are being pushed to the web, instead of being fat-client/server applicatons. At least the smaller type projects that this tool is targetting.

I also agree that Java is a more complicated language, and so it will hinder being able to do some things in the GUI builder. However VB.Net has gotten much more complex than VB 6, and so the differences and gap in 'ease-of-use' have become smaller.

Yeah, but it could be a good next step (1)

CarrionBird (589738) | more than 10 years ago | (#7430157)

.. for VB coders to make the jump to the OOP way of doing things. VB 6 coders are in a spot where they must choose among new platforms, none of which (even is a small learning curve.

One of the biggest reasons new programmers get hooked on VB is the ease of doing GUIs (while most other languages you are exposed to in school make GUIs look like some kind of spanish inquisition), if you can replicate that expierence in a more robust language, then you'll see VB dropped like a plague ridden swamp rat carcass.

Fortunately I had a Java teacher that made it a point to show us how non-impossible GUI programming can be. But in almost every other langauge I was taught, it was all CLI based examples. You may have seen one example of a windows app, but the subject was kept out of scope.

But when you start looking at VB, right away you are making things that are more like real programs than "hello world" examples. It seems to me that there's no reason that in the world of resuable code that a similar expierence could not be produced using true OOP languages.

I was hopeing for something like that when I picked up MS C++ .net, and found just another iteration of the same interface.
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