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WVG : The New Scalable Vector Graphics

timothy posted more than 10 years ago | from the actually-its-name-is-homer dept.

Graphics 432

jafro_svg writes "While the press has discussed Microsoft's upcoming 'Sparkle' as a potential Flash-killer - the technology arena on which Microsoft's new technology is having the most impact is SVG. SVG (now a W3 standard for 3 yeras) was itself billed as a Flash-killer some years ago, and speculation about how it might be accepted into the mainstream for developers (i.e. incorporated into IE) now seems inevitable -- you see, Sparkle's real name is WVG and is 90% identical to SVG." Jafro_svg also points out this online SVG tutorial.

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432 comments

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IN CASE SLASHDOTTED [fp] (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7555046)

afro_svg writes "While the press has discussed Microsoft's upcoming 'Sparkle' as a potential Flash-killer - the technology arena on which Microsoft's new technology is having the most impact is SVG. SVG (now a W3 standard for 3 yeras) was itself billed as a Flash-killer some years ago, and speculation about how it might be accepted into the mainstream for developers (i.e. incorporated into IE) now seems inevitable -- you see, Sparkle's real name is WVG and is 90% identical to SVG." Jafro_svg also points out this online SVG tutorial.

90% identical? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7555077)

I beg to differ. WVG is obviously 67% identical to SVG.

(Hint: 2 out of 3 letters == 67%)

Time to give up? (-1, Flamebait)

Blaine Hilton (626259) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555049)

Their version is basically the same, except proprietary and will be bundled with everything sold my Microsoft. The use of the "open" standard SVG will result in a lawsuit, your computer erasing the hard drive, and with Microsoft's move into also controlling the BIOS, don't even think about installing a operating system that doesn't come from Redmond.

Okay, I'll go sit back down now...

tsarkon reports greased up yoda doll 3.70 (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7555050)

9 steps to greasing your anus for Yoda Doll Insertion!
v 3.70.0
$YodaBSD: src/release/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/yodanotes/9_step_p rocess.sgml,v 3.70.0 2003/11/24 20:30:25 tsarkon Exp $
  1. Defecate. Preferably after eating senna, ex lax, prunes, cabbage, pickled eggs, and Vietnamese chili garlic sauce. Could be done in the Return of the Jedi wastebasket for added pleasure. [homestead.com]
  2. Wipe ass with witch hazel, soothes horrific burns. (Taco can use Hazel on mouth to soothe the horrific burns from chowing on ass so much).
  3. Prime anus with anal ease. [dimout.com] (Now Cherry Flavored for those butthole lickers amongst you - oh, that is most of /.)
  4. Slather richly a considerable amount of Vaseline or other anal lubricants into your rectum at least until the bend and also take your Yoda Doll [starwars-rpg.net] , Yoda Shampoo bottle [homestead.com] or Yoda soap on a rope [homestead.com] and liberally apply it.
  5. Pucker your balloon knot several times actuating the sphincter muscle in order to work it in.
  6. Put a nigger do-rag on Yoda's head so the ears don't stick out like daggers!
  7. Make sure to have a mechanism by which to fish yoda out of your rectum, the soap on the rope is especially useful because that is built in. [homestead.com]
  8. Slowly rest yourself onto your yoda figurine. Be careful, he's big. [starwars-rpg.net]
  9. Gyrate gleefully in your computer chair while your fat sexless geek nerd loser fat shit self enjoys the prostate massage you'll be getting. Think about snoodling with the Sarlaac pit. Read Slashdot. Masturbate to anime. Email one of the editors hoping they will honor you with a reply. Join several more dating services - this time, you dont check the (desired - speaks english) and (desired - literate). You figure you might get a chance then. Order some fucking crap from Think Geek. Get Linux to boot on a Black And Decker Appliance. Wish you could afford a new computer. Argue that IDE is better than SCSI because you cant afford SCSI. Make claims about how Linux rules. Compile a kernel on your 486SX. Claim to hate windows but use it for Everquest. Admire Ghyslain's courage in making that wonderful star wars movie. Officially convert to the Jedi religion. Talk about how cool Mega Tokyo is. Try and make sure you do your regular 50 story submissions to Slashdot, all of which get rejected because people who arent fatter than CowboyNeal can't submit. Fondle shrimpy penis while making a yoda voice and saying, use the force [toysrgus.com] , padawan, feeel the foooorce [toysrgus.com] , hurgm. Yes. Yes. When 900 years you reach [lemonparty.org] , a dick half as big you will not have. [toysrgus.com]
All in a days work with a yoda figurine rammed up your ass.

I HAVE A GREASED UP YODA DOLL SHOVED UP MY ASS!

y______________________________YODA_ANUS [goatse.cx]
o_________________.'_:__`.________________y
d____________.-.'`.__;___.'`.-.___________o
a___________/_:____\_;__/____;_\__________d
s_,'__""--.:__;".-.";:_:".-.":__;.--""__`,a
e_:'_`.t""--.._'/@.`;___',@\`_..--""j.'_`;s
x______`:-.._J_'-.-'L___`--_'_L_..-;'_____e
________"-.___;__.-"__"-.__:___.-"________x
y____________L_'_/.------.\_'_J___________y
o_____________"-.___"--"___.-"____________o
d______________.l"-:_TR_;-";._____________d
a_________.-j/'.;__;""""__/_.'\"-.________a
s_______v.'_/:`._"-.:_____.-"_.';__`.v____s
e____.-"__/_;__"-._"-..-"_.-"__:____"-.___e
x_.+"-.__:_:______"-.__.-"______;-.____\__x
_v;_\__`.;_; I Yoda Have A _____:_:_"+._;_
y_:__;___;_;_Greased Up ME In __:_;__:_\:_y
o_;__:___;_:_MY ASS! This Goes__;:___;__:_o
d:_\__;__:__; On FOREVER!______:_;__/__::_d

Because of Yoda's attitude, I usually don't respond to his perversions, but this time I'll make an exception. For starters, the nicest thing that can be said about Yoda's lackeys is that they are goofy insurrectionists out to demonstrate an outright hostility to law enforcement. Already, some piteous Neanderthals have begun to fund a vast web of uncontrollable vagabonds, combative slackers, and naive malodorous-types, and with terrifying and tragic results. What tracts will follow from their camp is anyone's guess. Think about that for a moment. Simply put, every morning Yoda asks himself, "How can I fool the masses today?" The law is not just a moral stance. It is the consensus of society on our minimum standards of behavior.

It is grossly misleading merely to claim that Yoda simply regurgitates the empty arguments that have been fed to him over the years. Strange, isn't it, how disrespectful control freaks are always the first to trick academics into abandoning the principles of scientific inquiry? At least 80 percent of the people in this country recognize that he should be locked up. And if that seems like a modest claim, I disagree. It's the most radical claim of all.

Does Yoda have trouble living with himself, knowing that Yoda's wheelings and dealings disgust and infuriate me? In my effort to uncover his hidden prejudices, I will need to provide you with vital information which he has gone to great lengths to prevent you from discovering. I'm not going to say why; we all know the reason. Stingy feckless lowbrows can go right ahead and convict me for saying that I, for one, am morally and ethically opposed to his sentiments, but History, acting as the goddess of a higher truth and a higher justice, will one day smilingly tear up this verdict, acquitting me of all guilt and blame. His solutions are so narrow-minded that if allowed to go unanswered, their final cost would be incalculable. Why doesn't Yoda try doing something constructive for once in his life? Some people have compared impertinent hedonists to illiterate vile morons. I would like to take the comparison one step further. Let me close where I began: This is a frightening realization.

I pledge Allegiance to the Doll
of the Greased Up States of Yodarica
and to the Republic for which it shoves,
one nation under Yoda, rectal intrusion,
with anal lube and ass grease for all.

hello.mpeg lyrics.
I'm doin' this tonight ,
You're probably gonna start a fight .
I know this can't be right .
Hey baby come on,
I loved you endlessly ,
When you weren't there for me.
So now it's time to leave and make it alone .
I know that I can't take no more
It ain't no lie
I wanna see you out that door
Baby , bye, bye, bye...
A picture of your ass after YODA. [bmezine.com]

Re:tsarkon reports greased up yoda doll 3.70 (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7555176)

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Can't surpass flash. (1, Insightful)

octalc0de (601035) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555051)

With Flash so popular on the Internet for multimedia presentation (used from everything to full-motion video), I fail to see how any other initiatives (even those backed by Microsoft) can manage to eat into the radical marketshare of Flash.
These days, you see flash taking the place of all client-side drawing, from games to its intended use of vector animation to entire layouts for websites. Flash
has evolved past simple vector drawings and is now, unfortunately, a part of the Internet that will probably be here to stay, with its annoying audio and annoying ads.

Even if it is incorporated into IE, web developers will see no reason to switch
to this new technology. Microsoft often reserves new initiatives for higher versions of Internet Explorer and leaves the older users in the dust, telling them to upgrade. With such a wide majority of users reluctant to upgrade, it'd be kind of pointless for webmasters to use this instead of flash.

Re:Can't surpass flash. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7555075)

That's true, yet some people will choose to use it. I laugh when sites try and require me to sign up for an MS Passport account. I immediately go to their competitors.

Can't surpass flash.-Naysayer-convention in town. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7555117)

Do you realize that at sometime in the past, Flash was at the same point SVG (WVG) is currently? Do you also realize that there were posts similiar to yours back then? "Oh, this Flash thing will never take off." So now ask yourself why should we start believing the nay-sayers NOW, when we didn't believe them then? And if we had how that would have changed your post. So please tell me why history shouldn't repeat itself?

Re:Can't surpass flash.-Naysayer-convention in tow (2, Insightful)

octalc0de (601035) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555126)

Vector graphics at the time were a new concept and were introduced to a non-saturated Internet market. The 'Net was still in its developing stages, and people had no vector animation tools already.

The situation is completely different today. This is a foray into an already saturated market as Flash dominates the field and wipes the floor clean with the blood of its competitors.

Re:Can't surpass flash. (1)

Ignis Flatus (689403) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555135)

Even if it is incorporated into IE, web developers will see no reason to switch to this new technology. Microsoft often reserves new initiatives for higher versions of Internet Explorer and leaves the older users in the dust, telling them to upgrade. With such a wide majority of users reluctant to upgrade, it'd be kind of pointless for webmasters to use this instead of flash.

I feel like you are talking about me. You see, I'm one of those late-adopters, still using WinNT as my primary OS. There's a whole world of content out there that I am completely shut out of. So many web sites I visit now offer video files in WMP version 9 format only. I would upgrade the video player, but MS does not offer an upgrade for my OS. I have been left behind.

As for the web sites that are shutting me out, I assume they use WMP9 because it came free with their server software. Webmasters are already making pointless decisions. They'll go right along with this one as well.

Re:Can't surpass flash. (5, Insightful)

Chess_the_cat (653159) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555146)

It happens all the bloody time:

Netscape lost out to IE
Apple lost out to Microsoft
AltaVista lost out to Google
WordPerfect lost out to Word
The typewriter lost out to the computer
Quark will eventually lose out to InDesign

In each example, the dominant, familiar, easy-to-use solution was replaced by the upstart.

Saying this 'can't surpass' Flash is so short-sighted and uninsightful it's making my teeth itch.

Re:Can't surpass flash. (1)

octalc0de (601035) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555166)

Netscape lost out to IE
Apple lost out to Microsoft
AltaVista lost out to Google
WordPerfect lost out to Word
The typewriter lost out to the computer
Quark will eventually lose out to InDesign


All of these new products have brought something new to the field. They would have crashed and burned otherwise. I fail to see what this new standard can bring to the masses, and it's really nothing unique that existing software can't do.

Sure, if Flash were a dead program that people weren't ever going to use, this would quickly surpass it. However, it isn't.

Re:Can't surpass flash. (2, Interesting)

lspd (566786) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555322)

All of these new products have brought something new to the field. They would have crashed and burned otherwise. I fail to see what this new standard can bring to the masses, and it's really nothing unique that existing software can't do.

I will come bundled with every copy of Frontpage/Office/Windows...the same way that IE beat Netscape.

Re:Can't surpass flash. (0)

ShallowThroat (667311) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555284)

Familar, maybe, but dominant and easy to use? Bullshit. since when are typewriters harder to use than computers? i guess sinces macs were harder to use than windows machines...

Re:Can't surpass flash. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7555157)

Are you really this stupid? Is anyone?

Re:Can't surpass flash. (2, Insightful)

deanpole (185240) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555198)

You assume flash will continue to work well in MSIE? Slowly it will break and become unreliable. The graphics rendering will have errors. The resolution will be lower and the colors not right. Some javascript autodetection methods will fail. CPU performance will suffer. etc...

It will happen first through security updates, then the new release. Maybe installation of MSOffice or DirectX 10 will cause it. There will be rumors of a security hole in the flash player. Eventually it will be unavoidable, and designers will decide WVG is less trouble.

Some would call it modus operandi.

Re:Can't surpass flash. (1)

LS (57954) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555392)

Do you have a timeline + evidence of Microsoft doing this to another technology? Specifics, please. I'm not implying that I don't believe your theory, but that such information would be very interesting to know.

LS

Re:Can't surpass flash. (5, Insightful)

dimator (71399) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555276)

People who compare SVG to Flash directly are missing the point. The real strength of SVG is not vector graphics (which its pretty good at). The real strength of SVG is that since its an XML-derived schema, all the available tools for dealing with and transcoding XML documents (XSLT, et al) can be used to generate SVG documents. The implications of this are slowly beginning to be understood. Imagine how many XML derivations could use this. Anything from business documents (graphs, etc), to medical records (graphically showing the timeline of a patient's medical operations, for example) can utilize these techniques.

The coolest example I can point you to is this [w3.org] . An XSLT stylesheet is used to transform a chess markup language into a animated SVG image. Beyond cool.

Flash is backwards - MS are devious (4, Insightful)

quinkin (601839) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555318)

Flash is backwards and needs to be replaced.

A cacheable (please!), dynamically generatable (without histrionics) SVG implementation is a much awaited flash killer if you ask me.

Unfortunately MS seems hell bent on taking an open standard, hacking it to bits, making it a "proprietary standard"(sic) and no longer inter-operable with the original standard, then deluging the market with a glut of installations... Eerily reminiscant of the good old JVM days...

Q.

Re:Can't surpass flash. (1)

jkauzlar (596349) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555348)

Here [xml.com] is a link to a interesting article by Paul Prescod which explains the significance of SVG in the vector graphics market. Despite Flash's success and Microsoft's monopoly advantage as they enter the market, there will still be a single open format by which vector graphics may be transmitted between applications. At this time, Adobe products, OpenOffice, to name some big supporters, allow conversion to SVG. It makes sense to have a open-standardized transmission language for vector graphic formats, even if nobody actually implements a viewer/creater for the format!

Yes but... (3, Insightful)

Spytap (143526) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555065)

Yes but...people already know Flash, they've gotten years of practice and make lots of money off of it. Despite potentially better technology, will they switch from what is familiar?

For reference, see Minidisc, laserdisc, Apple, and Linux...

Re:Yes but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7555099)

hence flashMX?

why is flash not going to be the idiotic animation it once was.

hey, maybe it will be useful one day.

doubtful

microsofts will just be an ugly hack of flash that still no one wants.

about that Apple (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7555196)

I can just imagine you saying that of the Macintosh in 1993 . . .

Re:Yes but... (3, Insightful)

UU7 (103653) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555426)

Yes, and people switched to DVD from VHS.

Re:Yes but... (3, Insightful)

burns210 (572621) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555431)

that is all well and good that Flash is clearly a better system, but does flash come installed on all machines? WVG will, ofcourse. will developers ignore cross platform compatability code in MS-only tech, because it is there? yes.

Why o why does this company get to do this to the populous? An open standard, taken, broken in compatability, bundled into an already integrated browser in the most widespread desktop OS on the planet, to compete with a company with an existing product...

I thought MS couldn't leverage their monopoly on the desktop to compete with other technologies... and bundling WVG, to compete with flash, is clearly copetition.

Of course (5, Interesting)

panxerox (575545) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555066)

the real question will be, will it be copyrighted so that only IE / MS can use documents created with it like they are doing with the new word standard.

oh great. just what I need... (1)

Rupan (723469) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555068)

jeez. I do so much work on the command line, and I have to start X just to view the web these days. I really hate the prevalence of flash- and java- based sites which have no text-only view.

New replacement for flash! (2, Insightful)

Megor1 (621918) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555071)

Use CSS and HTML! So many pages out there use flash when its not required (Some people might even say its never required), a bad examples of flash www.shaw.ca, you get to wait as the stupid flash scroll slowly shows you the text in the boxes.

Flash has a place (4, Interesting)

hungryfrog (624114) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555297)

"Splash" pages and annoying ads have given Flash a bad name. As a backend programmer who has dabbled with Flash, I think it's a pretty awesome tool when used correctly. You can interact with server-side scripts (e.g. PHP/Perl) and create some very cool tools that react in real time rather than waiting for page loads. It even accepts data input in the form of XML. I think it's a bit of a toss-up on Flash menus. They can be annoying, processor-intensive, and unecessary but they can also replace horribly buggy IE-only DHTML. Part of the problem is that Flash is simple enough that almost anyone can do a hackish implementation, but it really takes some time to understand how really take advantage of the medium.

A consideration... (2, Insightful)

Sheetrock (152993) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555082)

If this technology is cheap or free, that alone would probably be enough to unseat Flash. I know I've been wanting to see this become a standard feature in browsers so that it could be implemented in Web pages quickly and efficiently, rather than slowing down the page load time.

In most cases, Flash is abused by people who think it adds pizazz to menus or advertisements anyway. 99% of us would get along better without unless we're watching a cartoon or playing a game in it.

what? (2, Insightful)

octalc0de (601035) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555104)

Where's the incentive in producing this supposedely high-caliber product if only to make it free and/or cheap? It wouldn't be beneficial for any companies involved.

This being a standard in browsers will be a hard-to-come-by thing. Although it appears to have W3C standards, everybody seems to have their own little ways to distort the standards.

Plus, vector graphics in flash load fast anyway. Have you ever seen a (well-designed) flash banner slow your page load?

Cheap/Free SWF tools exist (4, Informative)

hungryfrog (624114) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555409)

If you want to create SWF (Flash) animations, there are much cheaper alternatives to buying Flash from Macromedia. SWF is an open format, and there are other manufacturers of creation tools. Swish [swishzone.com] is one I've heard a fair bit about. Others are available for Tucows [tucows.com] . You can even create SWF files from within PHP with the MING libraries [php.net] . In short, I don't think SVG will replace SWF simply because of cost.

w00000ppp (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7555086)

wtf? WTFFF? wwwwwtffffffffffffffffffff??????? ahhahahhahahahah wtf aw t ff wtt f f wttff...//
wtff wwwtttfffwtf? WTFFF? wwwwwtffffffffffffffffffff??????? ahhahahhahahahah wtf aw t ff wtt f f wttff...//
wtff wwwtttfff

90% identical (1)

mattjb0010 (724744) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555087)

and is 90% identical to SVG.

Well, that goes without saying: it's from Microsoft!

Re:90% identical (1)

edubarr (723926) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555328)

I'd expect more from M$...
At least 99.9%

Typical embrace + extend (1)

dtfinch (661405) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555088)

Take a cool semi-new open technology. Make it incompatible with standard implentations. And call it innovation.

It's heartwarming to see open source beating Microsoft to all the cool new DESKTOP technologies.

Deja Vu.... (4, Insightful)

Alan (347) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555092)

Ok, so Microsoft is coming out with a product that is 90% the same as an existing product from another vender, but 10% optimized for windows only, and probably *just* different enough that it's easy to get in to, but hard to switch back. It'll be included with every copy of windows (when it's released sometime towards the end of the decade).

Sound familiar to anyone?

Re:Deja Vu.... (1)

SkArcher (676201) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555139)

yup, sounds like the HTML debacle. Anyone for Anti-Toast?

similar article (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7555095)

Anyone remember MS Java? (4, Insightful)

Aardpig (622459) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555101)

you see, Sparkle's real name is WVG and is 90% identical to SVG.

Funny how Microsoft never manages complete compliance with a standard. How does it go again? Oh yes: embrace, extend, cripple, discard. Repeat ad nauseam.

Re:Anyone remember MS Java? (1, Interesting)

Call Me Black Cloud (616282) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555367)

Please, give examples other than your flawed Java example. Incidentally, MS' handling of Java has certainly not worked out to their benefit.

So... (1, Insightful)

SkArcher (676201) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555103)

MS have taken a published standard, altered it in minor but annoying ways for those of you ho have to deal with browser compatibility and massively publicised it. This sounds like the MS approved HTML debacle all over again. WTF happened with that Anti-trust case?

Communication and data exchange protocols ought to be open standards by law, damnit!

Re:So... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7555149)

You know what happened to that anti-trust case; they got slapped on the wrist and told not to do it again.

So they do it again. And again they will get slapped on the wrist and told not to do it again.

So they do it again... and so on.

Re:So... (2, Interesting)

bheer (633842) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555170)

http://www.get-the-protocols.com/ [get-the-protocols.com] . Considering that you can get the SMB and NTLM protocols here, (and considering the Office schemas were released as public standards) I wouldn't be surprised if Sparkle/WVG is available either here or through a standards agency when it's ready.

Communication and data exchange protocols ought to be open standards by law, damnit!

Don't you really mean -- there should be one protocol for everything, decided by the diktat of law, read tenured bureaucrats?

We've gone down that route before, with CDE, SGML, X.509 and the 7-layer OSI model. Thanks, but I'll take a Microsoft standard, which at least is answerable to market forces; over stuff published by unimaginative committees anyday.

Re:So... (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7555224)

You have a very selective memory. Those 'unimaginative committees' have also published: HTML, 802.11, GSM, 100Mpbs Ethernet, telephony standards, the colour standards for that monitor you are viewing, ...

Re:So... (4, Funny)

dimator (71399) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555305)

I'll take a Microsoft standard, which at least is answerable to market forces; over stuff published by unimaginative committees anyday

It is to laugh! Unimaginative committees? Microsoft is damn near duping a standard created through the W3, and you call the committee unimaginative?

You're right, though. Who nees open standards and peer review, when there's a monopolist we can all follow like sheep.

Re:So... (1)

SkArcher (676201) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555326)

No, I simply mean that it should be illegal to use a closed method of data transmission unless the design of the system calls for it (note: thats a get out for the military, more than anything else).

I'm all for market forces chosing the best standard, which is why I am against large companies using their dominance of the software market to lock customers in to a propriety method of data exchange.

And the MS Word XML schemas are known to be incomplete.

Re:So... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7555329)

Are you trolling, or just plain stupid?

Re:So... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7555421)

Yeah, right asswipe. Let's get the government involved in forcing companies to open up the specs for their data protocols. Of course this communist shit is modded up as insightful on Slashcunt.

Re:So... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7555442)

Why don't you move to N. Korea or something if you want the government wiping your ass. I hear the europeans still dig socialism. Better yet, just kill yourself now, there is no hope for you.

No progress on SVG since June 18, 2003 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7555105)

Just check their website [s.vg]

Sparkle history (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7555109)

Sparkle is a joint venture of Matsumura Fishworks and Tamaribuchi Heavy Manufacturing Concern.

Re:Sparkle history (1)

ishmalius (153450) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555191)

Glad you caught that. Might be a trademark problem.

official W3C response to Microsoft's WVG (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7555211)

That didn't explain anything, all I know is they stole my face and used it for their stupid logo. There's no other explanation.

Sparkle, eh? (1)

Valar (167606) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555115)

But what about sparkle motion?

Mr. Sparkle?

The real reason this is important... (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7555119)

Umm, people, the reason this is important is because client-side apps will be using this to draw their interfaces. WVG is the new way to do UI in Longhorn, whether it's in the browser or not.

Re:The real reason this is important... (1)

Citizen Gold (540740) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555397)

...the reason this is important is because client-side apps will be using this to draw their interfaces. WVG is the new way to do UI in Longhorn...

So? KDE is heading that way with SVG. They could still stick to the standard though. The bitching about MS-SVG still stands.

Come on, people! Flash-killer? (3, Insightful)

JeanPaulBob (585149) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555124)

If Flash really was replaced by WVG, do you know what the result would be? It's simple: Flash would be replaced by WVG. Instead of everyone complaining about the annoying Flash ads and site designs, we'd be complaining about the annoying WVG ads and site designs.

What's that you say? WVG won't support audio?[1] It won't be interactive like Flash[2], so there won't be any websites made entirely out of WVG? Then what on earth makes you think people will switch from Flash?

[1] I really have no idea whether WVG will support audio. If it will, my point is even stronger.
[2] See [1].

The last 10% (5, Insightful)

mblase (200735) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555128)

you see, Sparkle's real name is WVG and is 90% identical to SVG.

And Microsoft FrontPage and IE support a version of HTML that is 90% identical to W3C-compliant HTML. It's that last 10% that makes me want to throw my forehead through my monitor every day at the office.

Will Sparkle shine (3, Funny)

Infonaut (96956) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555134)

the way Chrome [com.com] did? ;-)

everyone knows! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7555140)

well everyone knows micro$oft is evil and big evil corporations like to release shit like this just to make them look cool and everyone will say oooh lets buy this new shit because it is cool well guess what micro$oft sucks1!!!!!111

THIS IS MY RESEARCH AREA, BOYS (-1)

Amsterdam Vallon (639622) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555144)

Please check these sites out immediately for more information. This field is GROWING CONSIDERABLY. If you WANT A JOB, study this stuff very closely!

- http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/ [w3.org]
- http://www.adobe.com/svg/main.html [adobe.com]
- http://xml.apache.org/batik/ [apache.org]
- http://www.mozilla.org/projects/svg/ [mozilla.org]
- http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/ [w3.org]

How to make XML 40% smaller (0, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7555152)

Get the W3C to drop the need for the closing tag name since it is implied anyway!
i.e., <a_ridiculously_long_tag_name><BLINK> hello</>there</>

my favorite urls (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7555164)

www.goatse.cx
www.tubgirl.com
www.lemonparty.org
www.goatse.cx!
www.tubgirl.com!
www.lemonparty .org!
www.goatse.cx~
www.tubgirl.com~
www.lemon party.org~
www.goatse.cx@
www.tubgirl.com@
www. lemonparty.org@www.goatse.cx
www.tubgirl.com
www .lemonparty.org
www.goatse.cx!
www.tubgirl.com!
www.lemonparty.org!
www.goatse.cx~&
www.tubgirl .com~^
www.lemonparty.org~%
www.goatse.cx@$
www .tubgirl.com@#
www.lemonparty.org@!1
www.goatse. cx!2
www.tubgirl.com!3
www.lemonparty.org!4
www .goatse.cx~&5
www.tubgirl.com~^6
www.lemonparty. org~%7
www.goatse.cx@$8
www.tubgirl.com@#9
www. lemonparty.org@!0

About time... (3, Interesting)

Kulic (122255) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555167)

SVG (now a W3 standard for 3 years) was itself billed as a Flash-killer some years ago

It's funny how some things turn out. Two years ago I was doing some research for a software company (they made CAD software adapted for ship design with lots of extra features) who wanted to put their product tutorials online and create a feedback system. The idea was that they wouldn't have to spend so much time teaching users how to use their software.

Anyway, I was looking at designing interactive websites and had to investigate a whole lot of new technologies, SVG among them. I found a few really cool examples, but nothing really useful. I also concluded at that time that it would be too hard to get SVG working in the users' browsers (Netscape 6.0 had just come out - it supposedly supported SVG, but damned if I could get it to work properly). Also, no one else was really using SVG at the time.

So in the end we went with Flash - not for the site design, but for interactive physics examples that helped the user to understand why different design decisions gave their ships different properties. Now that SVG (or the MS version) is being incorporated in IE, I could see it being useful for these type of things. Of course, there is the little matter of Flash being well understood by developers who've got lots of experience, and the large installed userbase... Will be interesting to see what is being used in another few years.

Re:About time... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7555313)

Netscape 6 did not and never did support SVG not even with a plugin. Netscape 6 supported MNG, and quite well.

Now netscape 7.0 and Adobe SVG plugin 6.0 or Corel SVG plugin is supported.

An interesting little race. (3, Interesting)

Coryoth (254751) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555173)

None of this is that surprising. Why re-invent the wheel? Especially when you can repackage the wheel under your own brand name, add some bevels, and shift the axle off center then call it your own.

What is somewhat interesting is that, at least in this (very early stage) MS is claiming that this is the new basis for all their UI drawing - the often suggested "totally SVG interface" that has been bandied about on Slashdot. And to be fair, things are starting to head that way. GNOME and KDE already do SVG icons etc. So the next question is, how quickly is the FOSS community going to have something like this already implemented, because they seem to have a head start ATM (though no direct push as MS has). And when it is implemented, how similar/compatile will the implementations be...

We shall see.

Jedidiah.

Damn Microsoft! (4, Funny)

Temporal (96070) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555180)

As usual, Microsoft ignores the standards and does its own thing. Why can't they be standards-compliant for once?

Wait a minute...

On a serious note, someone once submitted some art to an open source video game project I run in SVG format. I thought it was pretty neat that I could resize the image without losing visual quality, but I was rather put off by the size. The file just seemed way too big for the data it contained. On a whim, I opened it up in a text editor, and what did I find? DUM DUM DUUUMMMMM.... XML!

Arg! Why!? What's next, raster images in XML? I can see it now...

<rasterImage>
<pixel>
<color>
<red type="hexidecimalValue">FF</red>
<green type="hexidecimalValue">FF</red>
<blue type="hexidecimalValue">00</red>
</color>
</pixe l>
<pixel>
<color>
<red type="hexidecimalValue">FF</red>
<green type="hexidecimalValue">80</red>
<blue type="hexidecimalValue">80</red>
</color>
</pixe l>
...
</rasterImage>

Your comment violated the "postercomment" compression filter. Try less whitespace and/or less repetition. Comment aborted. Your comment violated the "postercomment" compression filter. Try less whitespace and/or less repetition. Comment aborted. Your comment violated the "postercomment" compression filter. Try less whitespace and/or less repetition. Comment aborted.

Re:Damn Microsoft! (1)

Temporal (96070) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555221)

(side note: I don't hate XML. It's a wonderful tool for things like config files, top-level structured data, and anything that is mostly text. It just doesn't make sense for homogeneous binary data or anything that involves very large arrays of simple structures.)

Re:Damn Microsoft! (2, Insightful)

kurt_cagle (410798) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555319)

SVG IS XML. All of it. Always has been. It's a vector graphics format that's written using XML primitives rather than binary ones, but it's still a vector graphic format. Chances are if the size was too big, it was because either someone embedded all of their font info inside of it, or there were huge number of path directives, but bit for bit SVG files are generally not much bigger than the binary formats they represent (especially if they are gzipped).

XML Maybe not bloated... (4, Informative)

mughi (32874) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555324)

On a serious note, someone once submitted some art to an open source video game project I run in SVG format. I thought it was pretty neat that I could resize the image without losing visual quality, but I was rather put off by the size. The file just seemed way too big for the data it contained. On a whim, I opened it up in a text editor, and what did I find? DUM DUM DUUUMMMMM.... XML!

When I looked into things last spring, I remember experimenting with a several small images (3-30k). I suprisingly found that the SVG versions were just as small as (and usually smaller than) raster versions, and that was without any form of compression on the XML. It all depends on what your specific content.

Re:Damn Microsoft! (1)

out_of_ideas (716781) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555337)

Seems like only this way them poor software guys can keep up with Moore's law ;-)

Homer? (1)

DaveLatham (88263) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555189)

from the actually-its-name-is-homer dept.

I'm betting it's a reference to the long debate on the authorship of the Iliad and Odyssey, culminating in the great quote [wikipedia.org] :

"The poems were not written by Homer, but by another man of the same name!"

W00t! It's the new Channels! (1)

teamhasnoi (554944) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555195)

Remember those? W95?/98 had 'web channels' or some such thing. I seem to recall trying them out once (ooh Disney!), and quickly disabling them. (permanently with 98lite. OT- litePC for XP/2000 [litepc.com] is out, remove all sorts of evil from windows)

I see this as MS being in the back seat on this one. Sort of like PNG for everyone else. Late to the party and you don't get any cake.

Why WVG is great. (3, Funny)

dj961 (660026) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555201)

WVG is exactly what the aging IE needs. With out incorporating new features Microsoft will be unable to keep up with their policy of releasing at least 1 brand new critical flaw once a year. Just imagine to power of SVG with 10% more bugs, added complexity, and lest we forget incompatibility with every other browser. WVG shows us that Microsoft can still continue to innovate by stealing other peoples ideas and branding them as their own.

Microsoft all ready tried this - VML (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7555203)

Looking at their overview, this looks a lot like their previous answer to SVG - VML.

VML tied into directx. They only mention that you cannot mix GDI and Avalon in the same window because WVG is hardware rendered through Avalon. Also sounds like directx.

The only major change was that in VML it always wanted a namespace defined for it to work - like IE didn't know what to do with a VML file. WVG seems like a different way to display for generic windows applications - not just web.

Looks like microsoft is innovating by repackaging an older product into a discription language that can be called by a standard win32 app. It would be interesting to see an open source toolkit that does the same thing as WVG, but uses open standards and remains cross platform.

Once again... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7555206)

Microsoft has taken someone else's idea, embraced it, extended it into totally proprietary Windows-only extensions and proclaimed how innovative they are.

I, however, am not worried. If it works half as well as their security initiative no one will be able to view any site based on WVG without crashing their bug-ridden browser. Almost certainly, the Windows update site will be heavily WVG-based to serve as a showcase ensuring that even more Windows machines will be unpatched for their latest vulnerabilities.

Eventually, of course, WVG will take over and there will be another few thousand marketing/advertising sites that I can't view. Who needs 'em?

Shameless plug? (1)

hungryfrog (624114) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555207)

Anybody else wonder why the poster choose to link "SVG" (and his screen name... hmmm...) to an obviously commercial site hawking a book (learnsvg.com) rather than to the W3C SVG pages [w3.org] ? The W3C site is certainly a better authority on the topic.

Who in hell wants to code SVG? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7555218)

When FlashMX is so much easier to lay it out visually?

Re:Who in hell wants to code SVG? (1)

POds (241854) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555286)

What makes you think there wont be a visual Development Environment for SVG or WVG?

I assume this is what you mean, because theres no way in hell you'd be able to know which one is easier, because wvg/sparkel isnt out yet..

Re:Who in hell wants to code SVG? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7555308)

Agreed. But SVG is out and barring Adobe's meager offering it seems W3 would like all of us designers to freaking code SVG graphics. FlashMX absolutely trounces this concept.

Repeat of the same (3, Funny)

Anml4ixoye (264762) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555227)

I posted this a long time ago, but somehow it is still relevant:

The Effects of a W3C SVG Standard

Positive: Flash plugin will eventually no longer be needed for vector graphics as a key set of vector standards will be integrated with browsers. Ensuring that fonts are on the users system will no longer be an issue. Font embedding can be standardized.

Negative: Netscape and IE will both bring "enhancements" to the base SVG models. Of course none of those "enhancements" will be present in BOTH browsers. IE will allow for basic SVG 3d shapes, though no applications will currently support the creation of those shapes. IE will also allow for very loose coding to create the SVG shapes. If you accidentally put a single co-ordinate set into your file, IE, instead of telling you that there is a stray point, will assume that you wanted to create a MSN logo and subsequent link to MSN.Com. Microsoft Word will support SVG export, including in the source file a bunch of code that noone has any bloody idea where it came from, what it is supposed to do, or how to get rid of it. Thirteen years later, Microsoft will take over the US Government and we will find out that the "miscellaneous code", has been stealing our personal information for years. Microsoft will call it "A bug". Netscape, on the other hand, encountering a stray co-ordinate pair, will assume that the "clean-coding" standards of the internet development community are going straight to hell in a hand basket and that the world is coming to an end. "That being the case," it will logically decide, "this poor bloke is about to meet his maker and doesn't need to be squandering his last few minutes with his peepers fixed on a computer monitor now does he? Best he be off to the local pub for a pint or two while he still has the chance". Netscape will them proceed to crash your operating system. Netscape will also do wonderful little tricks like incorrectly display circles as parallelograms, Render every font as 16 point Times New Roman, and completely leave out the bottom half of your document for some obscure reason that you will spend 13 weeks trying to track down before you finally come to the conclusion that "There really aren't that many Netscape users out there anyway". AOL will just compress the heck out of everything it encounters and render every SVG image as a Dot.

Insignificant: Someone somewhere on a UNIX machine will be writing Plain Text news articles about how SVG is the worst threat to web usability since the invention of JPEG compression. They will urge the development community to avoid SVG because compatibility will still not be standard across all computers. They themselves will be ample proof of this fact only because their 28.8k external modems will not facilitate the download of the newest version of Netscape (God forbid a UNIX user should install IE) and even if they could get it installed, their 16mhz 1987 computer wouldn't know how to run it. The general population will promptly ignore these articles as they click yet another accidentally generated MSN logo link, leaving the insecure author to return to Usenet and his IRC client.

I figured it would only be a matter of time before Microsoft did this. I normally try to stay out of the *bash Microsoft* conversations, but after dealing with all the problems we have with the Microsoft JVM, and then having this on top of it...ugh.

Re:Repeat of the same (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7555285)

It wasn't funny the first time you posted it. Still, I hope you get modded up so you will not feel the need to do it again.

Oh great (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7555243)

Another round of programmers bitching about flash and who know nothing about it. It's like asking a bunch of hardcore Microsofties their opinions about open source and Linux. One sided? yes. Useful and tangible responses? Not in your life.

Is everyone really missing the point? (5, Insightful)

TheNetAvenger (624455) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555254)

Is everyone really missing the point?

'Sparkle' is a vector designed drawing engine for APPLICATIONS inside longhorn, it is NOT being billed as a WEB standard.

'Sparkle' is the transitional replacement of the GDI model of the Windows interface. Moving from a Bitmap model to a true Vector model for the Windows UI.

It has NOTHING to do with SVG, Flash, or Web standards.

If you need to compare it to something, compare it to 'Quartz' - and I don't see people jumping on Apple for replacing SVG or Flash by using the PDF based Quartz engine.

The only reason the 'Sparkle' vector engine of Longhorn is getting buzz in this area is that unlike Quartz, it supports a wide array of animation standards within the vector drawing engine.

So, yes it functions somewhat like Flash of today, but that DOES NOT mean it is meant to replace Flash. Instead, it should be the new OS UI rendering engine that FLASH itself uses to draw FLASH applets in a browser window. (Get it, it is the vector engine under applications and things like Flash will use to render on screen.)

The same for SVG, there is no mention that SVG will not be supported in the new IE of Longhorn, in fact, SVG will probably be supported, but be drawn in the UI by the 'Sparkle' Engine.

This is an application/OS level vector rendering engine with animation, it is not a Web standard, nor does it purport to be.

Please stop with Microsoft is abandoning standards and trying to take over the world because they are moving their OS UI model from bitmap to vector based. That is all, get over it.

Everyone thought it was great stop forward in UI rendering models when Apple did this with Quartz, so how is Microsoft evil in developing their own rendering engine as well?

the best flash killer is (1)

toddhunter (659837) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555260)

the 'Flash Click to View' plugin for Firebird.
found here [texturizer.net] (texturizer). Anything Microsoft puts out will hopefully get the same treatment.

90 Percent SVG, huh? (5, Funny)

PourYourselfSomeTea (611000) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555279)

That means the other 10% will break down like so...
  • 5% obfuscating the namespace with ties to the .NET Framework
  • 2% smart tags. These will make your WVG document "smart" -- that is, allow MS to rewrite part of your graphics that might offend them. I see penguins looking longingly out of windows in your future, Mr Graphic Designer!
  • 1% "extensions" Like, it would be really cool if you got a new <wvg:clippy> tag that would pop up every time you opened an wvg document in I.E!
  • 1.99% Buzzwords that make WVG sound like a revolutionary B2B 99.999% uptime .NET-aware DRM-enabled, secure techonology solution for "helping you reach your creative potential in today's competitive marketplace." These, of course, will all be patented and made freely available under an obscure license which will confuse early adopters into implementing them, hopefully putting them directly into the Linux kernel and opening up a brand new SCO-like can of legal worms! These will also make WVG documents playable ONLY in Windows Media Player
  • 0.1% Security enhancements. Like ties to VBScript objects that can execute arbitrary code on your box.

Re:90 Percent SVG, huh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7555398)

pour yourself some shut the hell up, FUD monger

Re:90 Percent SVG, huh? (1)

rock_climbing_guy (630276) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555439)

Aha, and as I see, Microsoft's 10% will add up to 10.09%. What a thinly veiled attempt to steal even more from standards!!!

Inkscape - SVG editor (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7555295)

There's a new SVG editor under development called Inkscape - http://www.inkscape.org. It builds on the Sodipodi codebase but is focusing SVG and similar standards. For instance, the interface is being redone to be GNOME HIG-compliant - SDI instead of the Gimp/Sodipodi/Dia-like CSDI style. Worth checking out; looks like the next release will be coming out within a couple weeks.

embrace and extend plus patents (1)

penguin7of9 (697383) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555310)

This looks like Microsoft's traditional embrace-and-extend approach. Well, except they are making even less of a pretense of "extending" it than before--they just mostly pretend SVG doesn't exist.

The question is: given Microsoft's patent claims on the Microsoft Office XML file formats, will they try to patent the WML formats as well?

yeah, that's good and all (1, Funny)

frogsarefriendly (723785) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555323)

SVG (now a W3 standard for 3 yeras) was...
Did you mean years?
Suggestions:
years
eyras
ye ras
ye-ras
yer as
yer-as
teras
yeas
eras
ceras
yeara
eyra's
treas
yeats
terras
rras
wras
yea's
erase
tras
yeans
year's
yearns
ras
rears
yas
yes
areas
eyres

Yeah, rears, they meant rears.

If wvg is xml based... (1)

LnxAddct (679316) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555331)

...doesnt that mean that the source is easily obtainable. I mean as far as I know this wvg (or svg) doesnt compile. Flash's strength is that developers can develop knowing that noone will steal their code. If wvg stays as pure xml, then its only a "right click->view source" away. Developers wont like that. If wvg does compile, then having it xml based is dumb for there are far more efficient ways of achieving the same goal, granted they may be more complicated, but in the end better.Maybe I'm missing something here, correct me if I'm wrong.

Re:If wvg is xml based... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7555419)

Flash's strength is that developers can develop knowing that noone will steal their code.
So in addition to being a proprietary technology, Flash helps keep the applications proprietary as well. I wouldn't call that a strength. SVG may not be perfect, but at least it is well supported by Free Software. (Yes, there are Free Software Flash viewers, but they don't work on any real Flash applications found on the web yet. Fortunately, the few sites I go to that use Flash have an HTML "low-bandwidth" page.)

90% there, 90% not there (1)

Nom du Keyboard (633989) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555333)

and is 90% identical to SVG.

And that's as close as it is ever going to get. It can be the C# of web-pages.

Sparkle and WVG are not the same thing... (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7555336)

WVG is sort of a subset of Microsoft's XAML UI markup language that deals with vector graphics. Apparently the "WVG" term was not meant to be made public, and will be removed from subsequent editions of the Longhorn SDK docs.

(Microsoft blog clarifying this...)
http://www.eightypercent.net/Archive/200 3/11/04.ht ml#a153

"Sparkle" is supposedly the codename of a rumored Microsoft "Visual XAML" design tool.

Microsoft's WVG? (1)

rmohr02 (208447) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555366)

I'm guessing WVG = fucked up SVG

embrace and extend? (1)

jtilak (596402) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555375)

this sounds familiar. m$ likes to take a standard and butcher it with [proprietary] "extensions" that only work in windows. those who forget history are condemned to repeat it. anyone who uses microsofts "sparkle" is screwing themselves

IE's getting SVG... (4, Informative)

rmohr02 (208447) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555387)

...so I feel obligated to link to the Mozilla SVG Project [mozilla.org] .

WVG and other formats (4, Informative)

miguel (7116) | more than 10 years ago | (#7555418)

I wrote my impressions from Microsoft's Professional Developers Conference and the new technologies presented there in:

http://primates.ximian.com/~miguel/texts/pdc.htm l

There is a potential for XAML and WVG to become standards just because of the large deployments of these technologies.

Miguel.
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