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595 comments

proabbaly not.. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611615)

frist?

Re:proabbaly not.. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611681)

nice first post you fucking asshole. i hope you fucking choke on your own semen, pigboy.

Re:proabbaly not.. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611724)

hello anonymous coward... what's happening?

uhhhhh... we got sort of a problem here... yeaah... you appearantly didn't put one of the new GNAA advertisements on your first post.

mmmh... yeahh.. you see, we're putting the GNAA advertisements on all first posts now before they go out. did you see the memo about this?

so if you could just go ahead and make sure you do that from now on, that would be great.

and i'll go ahead and make sure you get another copy of that text. mmmmkay?

You know you're really in trouble... (5, Insightful)

El (94934) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611622)

when Indian developers are even cheaper than grad students!

Re:You know you're really in trouble... (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611691)

A trite comment.

The web page is responding very slowely, so:

Not all of our students will see this cover story in Business Week [businessweek.com] on the migration of high-paying jobs to India. But most attended a lecture in 6.171 [greenspun.com] by the folks who run MIT's latest big IT effort: OpenCourseware ( [mit.edu] http://ocw.mit.edu [mit.edu] ), which distributes syllabi, problem sets, and other materials from MIT classes (at least one semester after the class is actually given). During the lecture the students learned that, although ocw.mit.edu is a purely static .html site, it is produced with a database-backed content management system. In fact, of the $11 million donated by foundations to support the service, about $2 million was spent on technology and the salaries of folks at MIT who oversee the technology.

The more sophisticated portion of ocw.mit.edu is a 100 percent Microsoft show. A student asks the speakers why they chose Microsoft Content Management Server, expecting to hear a story about careful in-house technical evaluation done by people sort of like them. The answer: "We read a Gartner Group report that said the Microsoft system was the simplest to use among the commercial vendors and that open-source toolkits weren't worth considering."

Students began to wake up.

A PowerPoint slide contained the magic word "Delhi". It turns out that most of the content editing and all of the programming work for OpenCourseware was done in India, either by Sapient, MIT's main contractor for the project, or by a handful of Microsoft India employees who helped set up the Content Management Server.

Thus did students who are within months of graduating with their $160,000 computer science degrees learn how modern information systems are actually built, even by institutions that earn much of their revenue from educating American software developers.

So that's that, folks... (5, Insightful)

Thud457 (234763) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611890)

""We read a Gartner Group report that said the Microsoft system was the simplest to use among the commercial vendors and that open-source toolkits weren't worth considering."

...

A PowerPoint slide contained the magic word "Delhi". It turns out that most of the content editing and all of the programming work for OpenCourseware was done in India"

If we pay exhorbitant license fees for second-rate crapware with first-rate marketing, we don't have any money left to pay American programmers. Or apparently, even to hire American grad students.

Closed source == money migrates to the vendors
Open Source == money can be used to pay programmers.

Which way do you want it?

Re:You know you're really in trouble... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611704)

I'm not circumcised..and that's when you know you're in trouble. I can't get a blowjob from a girl to save my life!! I've only gotten laid once in my 30 years...by a drunk woman non the less.

Are there any women on this planet that would even knowingly have sex with an uncut guy? Thanks again for your input and help. :-)

Mod Parent UP: May change your LIFE! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611978)

I'm not circumcised..and that's when you know you're in trouble. I can't get a blowjob from a girl to save my life!! I've only gotten laid once in my 30 years...by a drunk woman non the less.

Are there any women on this planet that would even knowingly have sex with an uncut guy? Thanks again for your input and help. :-)

Please Help answer this question as it will help me decide if I should give up hope of ever getting a woman. Thanks.

Re:You know you're really in trouble... (5, Funny)

musikit (716987) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611722)

donno what school you went to but at the school i went to a large majority of the grad students were indian. so

"You know you're really in trouble...
when Indian developers are even cheaper than" Indian developers???

Re:You know you're really in trouble... (1)

Chalybeous (728116) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611760)

It's like the poster says, bub:

"A company that will go to the ends of the earth for its employees...
... will go to India to find someone who'll work for 10% of your salary."
Not that Indian workers aren't talented - but like the recent outsourcing of UK call-centre work to places like Delhi demonstrates, the companies would rather hire you if you're talented and cheap.

Re:You know you're really in trouble... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611873)

"It is very dark. You are likely to be eaten by a grue."

None of that 'if you continue' crap.

Re:You know you're really in trouble... (4, Insightful)

ConceptJunkie (24823) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611946)

the companies would rather hire you if you're talented and cheap.

But if they can only choose one, they'll go with "cheap" every time.

Re:You know you're really in trouble... (1)

xmedar (55856) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611830)

When you think the page is /.ed so you traceroute and find Harvard is using Cogent!

Re:You know you're really in trouble... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611878)

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g_______________________________________________g
o_/_____\_____________\____________/____\_______o
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x__\______\/____--~~__________~--__|_\_____|____x
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g____\______\_________.--------.______\|___|____g
o______\_____\______//_________(_(__>_\___|_____o
a_______\___.__C____)_________(_(____>_|__/_____a
t_______/\_|___C_____)/______\_(_____>_|_/______t
s______/_/\|___C_____)_______|__(___>_/__\______s
e_____|___(____C_____)\______/__//__/_/_____\___e
x_____|____\__|_____\\_________//_(__/_______|__x
*____|_\____\____)___`----___--'_____________|__*
g____|__\______________\_______/____________/_|_g
o___|______________/____|_____|__\____________|_o
a___|_____________|____/_______\__\___________|_a
t___|__________/_/____|_________|__\___________|t
s___|_________/_/______\__/\___/____|__________|s
e__|_________/_/________|____|_______|_________|e
x__|__________|_________|____|_______|_________|x
*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*


The perineum is the area of skin rich in nerve endings that is located below the anus (the opening for bowel movements). For men, the perineum extends to the vaginal opening; for women it extends to the base of the testicles.

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However, because this kind of stimulation is often associated with insertion of the finger into the vagina or anus, or both, a water-base lubricant is recommended and preferred.

[ Reply to This [nero-online.org] ]

1 reply [nero-online.org] beneath your current threshold.

FP!!!!!! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611623)

lololololol9ol!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111

I JUST MADE POO (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611627)

*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_
g_______________________________________________g_ _
o_/_____\_____________\____________/____\_______o_ _
a|_______|_____________\__________|______|______a_ _
t|_______`._____________|_________|_______:_____t_ _
s`________|_____________|________\|_______|_____s_ _
e_\_______|_/_______/__\\\___--___\\_______:____e_ _
x__\______\/____--~~__________~--__|_\_____|____x_ _
*___\______\_-~____________________~-_\____|____*_ _
g____\______\_________.--------.______\|___|____g_ _
o______\_____\______//_________(_(__>__\___|____o_ _
a_______\___.__C____)_________(_(____>__|__/____a_ _
t_______/\_|___C_____)/IT_CAME\(_____>__|_/_____t_ _
s______/_/\|___C_____)_OUT_OF_|_(___>___/__\____s_ _
e_____|___(____C_____)\_HERE__/_//__/_/_____\___e_ _
x_____|____\__|_____\\_________//_(__/_______|__x_ _
*____|_\____\____)___`----___--'_____________|__*_ _
g____|__\______________\_______/____________/_|_g_ _
o___|______________/____|_____|__\____________|_o_ _
a___|_____________|____/_______\__\___________|_a_ _
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s___|_________/_/______\__/\___/____|__________|s_ _
e__|_________/_/________|____|_______|_________|e_ _
x__|__________|_________|____|_______|_________|x_ _
*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_


Important Stuff: Please try to keep posts on topic. Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads. Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said. Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about. Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page) If you want replies to your comments sent to you, consider logging in or creating an account.

Important Stuff: Please try to keep posts on topic. Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads. Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said. Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about. Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page) If you want replies to your comments sent to you, consider logging in or creating an account.

Important Stuff: Please try to keep posts on topic. Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads. Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said. Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about. Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page) If you want replies to your comments sent to you, consider logging in or creating an account.

Re:I JUST MADE POO (-1, Offtopic)

BoomerSooner (308737) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611654)

Lol, now that's funny.

Re:I JUST MADE POO (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611682)

OU RULES!!

Re:I JUST MADE POO (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611845)

Aggies rule. We want a re-match. Whoop!

Re:I JUST MADE POO (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611913)

OKIE STATE FUCKED YOUR MOM!!

Funny (2, Interesting)

Quasar1999 (520073) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611641)

The interesting thing is that it's not that it was crap, but rather that it was done in India. Had they had some firm in the US do it, it wouldn't make the headlines...

There are equally good and equally bad firms all over the word that do development... India is no exception.

Re:Funny (5, Insightful)

arkanes (521690) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611772)

See, heres why it's funny. MIT is an engineering college. They're very famous and respected. However, even software enginerring graduates from MIT can have a hard time finding work in IT these days, because they expect (and often deserver) high salaries and the IT sector is very tight right now. One reason it's so tight is because alot of development is being outsourced to India, where it's cheaper.

So you've got one of the premier software development colleges in the country outsourcing it's software development work to India. It'd be like a medical school outsourcing it's health department.

Re:Funny (3, Insightful)

dafollower (309272) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611957)

But MIT is not a premier software development school..it's a primier computer science school..and do it's graduate students really want to develop this content management system..or do something more innovative?

Re:Funny (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611967)

Why should MIT's Computer Scientists and Computer Engineers bother with the IT field? After all, we CSs are not network monkeys. CS and CE degrees are applicable to a much wider range of jobs than just IT garbage. Maybe most people don't care about the distinction, but I'm tired of seeing CS and IT equated against each other. CS!=IT

Re:Funny (2, Insightful)

ameoba (173803) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611975)

Well, if it's like any other engineering college, odds are that a large number of their students are from India already...

Re:Funny (1)

andy1307 (656570) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611987)

It'd be like a medical school outsourcing it's health department.

Apples and oranges...What would you say about MIT hiring an outside contractor to repair a wall on its campus when it has a civil engineering department? Hey...the poor graduate students in the civil engineering department could use the extra money..and it's related to their field, right?

Re:Funny (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611801)

Fair enough. However, if you abstract out specific country (India), and just consider the fact, you may notice an interesting pattern: shipping out development (of code, courseware, whatever) to a remote place is not an easy thing to do, nor does it always (or even often?) save money, when one considers the whole picture, not just upfront costs (ie. factor in quality, including maintainability, extensibility etc). There are lots of domestic examples of how sudden changes (like, say, Corel moving WordPerfect development by firing all existing developers, hiring bunch of new people... all people involved being employed in North America) can sink products; it's not just going to India that's failing.

I'm just waiting for the moment when the light bulb suddenly gets switched on, and people realize that being a cheapskate often does not save money. Quite often you get what you pay for. And realizing that should not be mixed with hidden racism or xenophobism.

Re:Funny (1)

Thud457 (234763) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611973)

For a while in the 19th century, it was economically feasible to ship laundry from the United States to be done in China. (I'm scouring the web for a reference.)

Re:Funny (1)

obsid1an (665888) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611819)

I don't think the point of this is the say whether the firm was good or bad. It's just another example of technical work for the US being farmed outside of the US. It's really sad that it was a University like MIT that has tons of students that could do this work for nothing.

Dollar bills, y'all (1)

hendridm (302246) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611643)

I see even the biggest of schools aren't immune to Microsoft's grasp, and PHBs aren't excluded by acedemia.

Heh, the University I attended wouldn't hire any of their graduates either. For the few positions I saw open up while I was graduating, most of them were filled with people whom had no degree or a 2-year degree with varying experience (some had decent experience, some had little more than the average student.) Nothing wrong with either type of person, of course, but it shows the faith the Uni had in its own undergrads.

I guess I should have seen the warning signs, but I was told I would make lots of money and be able to pick and choose my job with a bachelor's degree :D

Re:Dollar bills, y'all (1)

zangdesign (462534) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611844)

What, exactly, does this have to do with Microsoft? Look, I know they're evil and all, but isn't that remark a bit of a stretch?

Re:Dollar bills, y'all (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611899)

The clever bits of the site are driven by Microsoft Content Management Server, because the managers read a Gartner Group study recommending it.

Re:Dollar bills, y'all (2, Interesting)

calethix (537786) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611971)

The university I attended hired me right after graduation, however I've heard our new management frowns upon that and would prefer that recent graduates go get a job elsewhere. Then after they have outside experience, it's ok for them to bring their new expertise back.

I've seen at least one case where a student employee was involved in training his replacement instead of just being hired on full time for the job after graduation.

Student Labor vs. good money (4, Insightful)

ericspinder (146776) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611651)

No wonder it cost so much to go to college these days, even MIT doesn't use it's own students for cheap labor these days.

I guess that it's hard for the school administrators to soak money off a project unless it's got a big budget. Perhaps a conversation to a close friend goes like this: "Yea, we're outsourcing the project to an Indian company which is paying me to consult"

Re:Student Labor vs. good money (1)

hendridm (302246) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611709)

I can understand why they wouldn't want to hire students per se due to the high turnover rates. However, they're probably pumping out graduates like every other University who would love a cushy University job, do a good job, and probably work cheap out of desperity all while gaining experience so they can make the big bucks later in life and give back to the MIT Foundation.

An older thread about outsourcing experiences.... (2, Informative)

tcopeland (32225) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611656)

...is right here [slashdot.org].

Lots of familiar points are made - timezone differences impede voice communications, geography impedes physical communications, "fire and forget" projects are not very common, etc. Seems like it can be made to work, though, if folks on the project take the time to keep the communication lines open.

Body of the article (for the slashdot effect) (0, Informative)

SamiousHaze (212418) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611677)

Outsourcing to India in Business Week and at MIT...
Not all of our students will see this cover story in Business Week on the migration of high-paying jobs to India. But most attended a lecture in 6.171 by the folks who run MIT's latest big IT effort: OpenCourseware (http://ocw.mit.edu), which distributes syllabi, problem sets, and other materials from MIT classes (at least one semester after the class is actually given). During the lecture the students learned that, although ocw.mit.edu is a purely static .html site, it is produced with a database-backed content management system. In fact, of the $11 million donated by foundations to support the service, about $2 million was spent on technology and the salaries of folks at MIT who oversee the technology.

The more sophisticated portion of ocw.mit.edu is a 100 percent Microsoft show. A student asks the speakers why they chose Microsoft Content Management Server, expecting to hear a story about careful in-house technical evaluation done by people sort of like them. The answer: "We read a Gartner Group report that said the Microsoft system was the simplest to use among the commercial vendors and that open-source toolkits weren't worth considering."

Students began to wake up.

A PowerPoint slide contained the magic word "Delhi". It turns out that most of the content editing and all of the programming work for OpenCourseware was done in India, either by Sapient, MIT's main contractor for the project, or by a handful of Microsoft India employees who helped set up the Content Management Server.

Thus did students who are within months of graduating with their $160,000 computer science degrees learn how modern information systems are actually built, even by institutions that earn much of their revenue from educating American software developers.

# Posted by Philip Greenspun on 12/1/03; 10:57:50 AM - Comments [20] Trackback [2]

KARMA WHORE (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611849)

Please do not whore karma, do as this [slashdot.org] poster did and post AC.

Mods, please down moderate back to 1 (but not below for fairness). Copying text is an easy way to gain karma and is often used by trolls who set up trolling accounts which gain points to make their trolling appear sooner and offend more people. Please do not reward them.

Story has little merit... (-1, Insightful)

JohnGrahamCumming (684871) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611683)

This story seems to have little merit. All it tells you is that MIT outsourced the development of some software to Sapient who did the work in India, and that they used Gartner as a source of information when choosing the software platform.

Doesn't seem to be anything out of the ordinary here: major organization X outsources some menial task to US company Y that does it cheaply in country Z. Along the way Y relies on Gartner for information: that's what Gartner's there for! (Of course, it would be nice if they'd done some evaluation of the software, but hey).

Of course the story does have merit if "India" eq "Bad", and if that's the racist slant the Slashdot is pushing on its front page then the editors should reconsider.

The article never says, for example, the work was done in India:

1. And was overbudget
2. And was badly written
3. And was delivered late

No criticism, just the fact that it was done India. WTF, Slashdot? This is news?

John.

Re:Story has little merit... (4, Insightful)

mental_telepathy (564156) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611716)

I appreciate the point you are making, but I don't think it was posted with ill intent. I think the point that is being made is that MIT should have a large pool of talented, cheap programmers to draw on. So why outsource?

Re:Story has little merit... (1)

nessus42 (230320) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611806)

Graduate students at MIT are not hired to do production programming work, but rather to do research that pushes the boundaries of current knowledge.

Re:Story has little merit... (1)

jbellis (142590) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611871)

You are aware, are you not, that MIT has more than a few undergraduates? And that among said undergraduates you may find some competent programmers?

Re:Story has little merit... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611916)

Contrary to popular belief, grad students dont just sit around all day waiting to be given big programming assignments like this. They are chasing after their theses.

"Hey! You got your peanut butter on my thesis!"
"You got your thesis in my peanut butter!"

Theses Pieces: There's no wrong way to write a thesis!

Re:Story has little merit... (3, Insightful)

nessus42 (230320) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611959)

MIT undergraduates are notoriously flakey about completing any kind of project that is not class-related, since their course work takes up 200% of any free time they might have.

And having a class whose goal would be to complete this programming task would probably not be a good idea: classes at MIT usually concentrate on the fundamentals -- not the specifics of particular hairy development tools that will be here today and gone tomorrow.

Re:Story has little merit... (1)

Hooya (518216) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611887)

s/MIT/India/g
s/large/larger/g
s/cheap/cheaper/g
s/why/why not/g

any ?s

Re:Story has little merit... (5, Insightful)

JohnsonWax (195390) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611911)

Actually, you too missed the point.

The point was that the approach that MIT took would not have put food on the table of any CS grad in the US. So MIT is turning out these wonderful CS grads and then simultaneously demonstrating in a very visible, successful project that they have very little use for them - that they can rely on Gartner to tell them what software to buy and India to implement it.

What exactly are the prospects for the MIT grad when even MIT themselves employ this decision making process.

MIT students might have been able to do this more inexpensively/efficiently/quickly, but that wasn't really even considered. If the organization that has their best educational interests in mind doesn't consider them to be effective resources, how will they be received by an industry that doesn't give a damn about their best interests?

That must have been one hell of a depressing lecture to attend.

Re:Story has little merit... (1)

happyfrogcow (708359) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611747)

Don't start batting the "racist" word about like it's a ping pong ball. "Regionalist" would be more appropriate, but of course you wanted mod points, and what better way than by calling the slashdot editors racist.

Re:Story has little merit... (1)

YU Nicks NE Way (129084) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611886)

What better way than calling them racist? It's easy: calling them racist when it's a valid complaint.

Nobody complained about the outsourcing of IT jobs to Ireland in the 80's and early 90's, when it was cheap. Nobody complains about the outsourcing of IT jobs to Russia and Israel now. But people complain about the outsourcing of jobs to India.

Can you give me a reasonable explanation beyond "they've got dark skins"?

Re:Story has little merit... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611983)

Except India == Aryan (by definition, see Vedas and swastika, holiest symbol in India) and Israel/Arab == Semite (by definition). So how can this by racist ?
I'm confused...

Re:Story has little merit... (2, Informative)

fean (212516) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611985)

They complain about outsourcing when OUR economy is slumping and computer programmers are bagging groceries... yeah, if you try hard enough, you can always relate something to problems with race...

Just like our school just got sued because they didn't hire a woman for the football coach... she said it was sexual discrimination, the school said that regardless of her qualifications, a team of testosterone pumped college guys would have an extremely hard time adjusting to a female coach. Add onto that that she had never coached football, and it seems pretty clear cut...

I'm sick and tired of EVERYBODY blaming racism and discrimination for why they aren't doing well in this world, when I'd choose to believe its because they spend too much time bitching

Re:Story has little merit... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611754)

It is news for mediocre CS graduates who saw IT was paying well 4 years ago and hoped to jump on the high wage bandwagon despite their mediocrity, instead of picking and choosing their profession and going at it with excellence.

Intelligent, creative, hardworking people need not worry as they create work rather than follow it.

It has merit (4, Interesting)

dinskeep (657760) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611767)

because it looks like MIT chose a) the vendor and technology and b) the contractor to do with work with little investigation.

a) Speaks to their inability to even attempt to investigate various options WRT technology. Not encouraging from a place of learning.

b) Speaks to their inability to even attempt to use a neccessary IT project as something that could benefit their students and serve as a learning experience for the school and it's customers (the students).

I expect brainless, off-the-cuff, short-sighted decisions like this from PHB's, not from a center of learning.

Re:Story has little merit... (1)

gl4ss (559668) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611813)

well.. usually such things are done in-house(in university), and act as practice work along as being real useful work. it surprises me that they outsourced such a thing(that is so closely related to studies afterall) instead of using it to educate their students(are they a moneymaker/publicity/grant_magnet or education institution?). after that it doesn't really matter where it went.. india, canada, mexico, new york, does it matter? no.

..well.. actually i'm just going to see if there's something related to my current studies there.

Re:Story has little merit... (2, Insightful)

CrankyFool (680025) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611820)

This is not "some company outsourced a project to India." This is "MIT outsourced a project to India." MIT is different from "<insert generic company>" both because of their presumed easy access to relatively inexpensive but highly technically-competent labor and because for many of the people in the core audience of Slashdot (geeks), MIT stands as something of the Shining City On the Hill. It's an overstatement to compare MIT->geeks to Mecca->Muslims, but there's definitely an element of reverence and respect we have for the institution and its students.

So having MIT decide to outsource a project like this to India (ignoring for the moment the Microsoft component) is significant and newsworthy to many of us.

Re:Story has little merit... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611823)

There are at least a few people on this site who are unemployed due to work being outsourced to...wherever. For years there has been strong pushback in the industrial sector to keep jobs local and not ship them overseas. It says nothing about the quality of the product (at least not so much anymore), or the intelligence of the people making the product (clearly India's educational system is doing its job).

So what's wrong with a Nationalist trend? There's lots of precedence for it having nothing to do with race.

Re:Story has little merit... (5, Interesting)

Mr. Slippery (47854) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611880)

All it tells you is that MIT...

Which is training Americans to be software developers...

outsourced the development of some software to Sapient who did the work in India,
...meaning they're not using American software developers...
and that they used Gartner as a source of information when choosing the software platform.
...and that they made their choice of software based on the testimony of the most clueless bunch of soul-for-sale corporate bastards this side of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation [hhgproject.org].

A bastion of American software development is acting in a way that furthers neither America nor software development. No further criticism or comment is needed. In the immortal words of Hunter S. Thompson, res ipsa loquitur.

what I find interesting about this article... (2, Interesting)

Daytona955i (448665) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611936)

is the fact that instead of using cheap grad student labor, they outsourced to India. I can only imagine how many talented grad students MIT has at their disposal.

Plus, I'd assume that most grad students (at least all the ones I know) would apreciate the flexability of open source software, thus saving even more money.

I am more shocked at the waste of money!

However, if you want to talk about India, the fact that a US univeristy outsourced it's code does not bode well for it's graduating student. CS jobs are getting harder and harder to find here in the US. Why? Well that would be because it's cheaper to outsource it to places like India. The only drawback is that you tend to get what you pay for.

The reason this is on slashdot is because slashdot has a large population of tech readers of whom this outsourcing effects.

Open Courseware not Open Source (2, Insightful)

alexborges (313924) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611684)

Yeah, the first thing i did when i looked at this great effort of MIT was, where is the software!

So i poked arround and its on the faq (and i seem to remember i got email from them when i asked). They made it with a microsoft CMS piece of shit software and some other stuff.

The good part about it is that teachers just do their stuff in HTML and most of the infrastructure is basicaly static with some MSCMS stuff arround it.

I guess there are many good things about it, but tech infrastructure is not one of them.

I'm starting to come around in my way of thinking. (4, Insightful)

Sheetrock (152993) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611693)

I used to be somewhat aggravated about the perceived flood of jobs leaving our country.

However, this (in addition to a weakening dollar) will eventually lead to equilibrium and a return of jobs as manufacturing is able to afford more workers locally. Additionally, it's somewhat symbolic that India has worked on a project that will ultimately allow other disadvantaged countries to develop their own technology resources off of information, hopefully returning to the pool of public knowledge rather then proprietary.

And MIT students get a lesson in economics as well.

Re:I'm starting to come around in my way of thinki (4, Insightful)

DLR (18892) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611812)

Riiiiiight. That would explain why 90% of the world's steel production is overseas. Because weakening dollar prompted manufacturers to bring it back to the U.S. since we already had existing infrastructure.

That would also explain why it took actual Federal legislation to keep 50% of the semiconductor founderies in the U.S. when we started with 90% of them.

This isn't about hating Indians because they're a different culture. This is about watching high tech U.S. jobs vanish overseas to some $2 a day worker so some corporate boardroom bozo can buy his 5th Rolls. My question is this: When all the people in the U.S. are unemployed or under employed because all the formerly high paying - high tech jobs are overseas, who's going to buy the $50 widgits (that cost $1 to make overseas)?

Equilibrium (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611932)

Unfortunately, equilibrium will only be acheived when the average American is as well off as the average Calcutta street urchin... Average the salaries of 200 million Americans with the salaries of 1 billion Indians... that's what your "equilibrium" wage will be!

Re:Equilibrium (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611969)

Won't happen.

We have most of the guns and an ideology that allows us to use them.

Good luck rest of the planet! You have your work cut out for you (by US of course).

Re:I'm starting to come around in my way of thinki (1)

FredFnord (635797) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611989)

> However, this (in addition to a weakening dollar) will eventually lead to equilibrium and a return of jobs as
> manufacturing is able to afford more workers locally. ...as Americans become more and more willing to work for less and less money, and more and more people end up below the poverty line, as 'working poor'.

That's the answer, all right. As long as you aren't one of the 'more and more people'.

> And MIT students get a lesson in economics as well.

Indeedy.

> If we were faultless we should not be so much annoyed by the defects of those with whom we associate. -- Shakespear

Shakespeare. Shakespeare. Shakespeare.

-fred

Harming the local economy... (5, Insightful)

TheMCP (121589) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611698)

Here I was, unemployed, using all my contacts to try to get in on the programming for OpenCourseware, and they outsourced it to India while I struggled to pay the rent.

I think it's time for me to contact my state elected representatives and let them know how MIT is harming the local economy by sending work out of the country when there are top notch people unemployed here, and suggest that I'd be unhappy if the state were to give MIT any particular financial breaks or other incentives.

Re:Harming the local economy... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611759)

TANSTAAFL, homey, tanstaafl. Might be a good time to look at doing something else. Or starting your own programming company.

Re:Harming the local economy... (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611777)

Hope you don't live here in Indiana...

[yahoo.com]
Story

(Note, the governor recently reversed the decision deciding to keep the contract in state - but only after tons of pressure was put on him)

Re:Harming the local economy... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611778)

TheMCP wrote: there are top notch people unemployed here

Please, *please* tell me that MCP means something out of Tron and not Microsoft Certified Professional.

Re:Harming the local economy... (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611788)

I've got a PHP site I need to have done.

Sort of like MIT CourseWare, but different content.

I will pay $2 per hour plus a box of donuts every day.

Interested?

Re:Harming the local economy... (2, Insightful)

AxelBoldt (1490) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611792)

I'm pretty sure that people in India need jobs more desparately than people in the U.S., so outsourcing leads to more equality on a global scale and is therefore a good thing.

Re:Harming the local economy... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611931)

Yeah, uh. I thought MIT was in Massachusetts, not India? Since when was it MIT's goal to aid foreign contries? This is not about utilitarianism, but cheap labor.

Re:Harming the local economy... (1)

gammoth (172021) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611962)

Oh, ...ok, you feed and educate my children.

How desperate do you need to be? Don't complain when all the mortgage foreclosures drive up interest rates.

I doubt the University educated programmers of India, while perhaps not enjoying our standard of living, are the desperate ones by Asian standards.

Re:Harming the local economy... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611968)

Oh yeah? So what exactly is it that *you* do to pay your rent? Are you ready to be laid off and start competing in that new global economy? Ready to sell yourself for $5/hour for top notch skilled IT work for 16 hours/day just to go crash in the 2 bedroom apartment you share with 4 other people and a few rats?

No, you're not.

It is easy to coldly tell people how good something is around the world when you're not the one taking it up the ass.

Where did you get this unfounded belief that someone starving here while a potential job goes to another country is a good thing for everyone?

You're nuts.

Re:Harming the local economy... (2, Informative)

Cragen (697038) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611821)

and then you will learn the third and final lesson. Your elected representative ain't representing you, dude. Sorry. *cragen

Re:Harming the local economy... (4, Insightful)

Dutchmaan (442553) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611824)

Welcome to global capitalism...

India offers a service of the same quality for a lower price... you must either lower your price or offer something better...

Globalization has its downside you know...

Re:Harming the local economy... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611949)

Just wait until India and Pakistan get into another hissy fit. Or when they decide to feel really anti-American? Yep, same quality indeed.

Re:Harming the local economy... (3, Insightful)

Daytona955i (448665) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611988)

Same level of quality? Have you actually seen the code coming from India?

You really do get what you pay for but the PHB saved a few dollars so he's a hero.

Future Headline from June 2004 Boston Globe... (5, Insightful)

anactofgod (68756) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611699)

"MIT Graduates Can't Find Jobs to Pay Back Student Loans"

---anactofgod---

blog text (0, Redundant)

theMerovingian (722983) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611710)

Outsourcing to India in Business Week and at MIT...

Not all of our students will see this cover story in Business Week on the migration of high-paying jobs to India. But most attended a lecture in 6.171 by the folks who run MIT's latest big IT effort: OpenCourseware (http://ocw.mit.edu), which distributes syllabi, problem sets, and other materials from MIT classes (at least one semester after the class is actually given). During the lecture the students learned that, although ocw.mit.edu is a purely static .html site, it is produced with a database-backed content management system. In fact, of the $11 million donated by foundations to support the service, about $2 million was spent on technology and the salaries of folks at MIT who oversee the technology.

The more sophisticated portion of ocw.mit.edu is a 100 percent Microsoft show. A student asks the speakers why they chose Microsoft Content Management Server, expecting to hear a story about careful in-house technical evaluation done by people sort of like them. The answer: "We read a Gartner Group report that said the Microsoft system was the simplest to use among the commercial vendors and that open-source toolkits weren't worth considering."

Students began to wake up.

A PowerPoint slide contained the magic word "Delhi". It turns out that most of the content editing and all of the programming work for OpenCourseware was done in India, either by Sapient, MIT's main contractor for the project, or by a handful of Microsoft India employees who helped set up the Content Management Server.

Thus did students who are within months of graduating with their $160,000 computer science degrees learn how modern information systems are actually built, even by institutions that earn much of their revenue from educating American software developers.

Dear M.I.T., (5, Funny)

mikesab (652105) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611737)

Where abouts in India did you find these programmers?
Yours Truly,

Lumberg
Manager,
Intertech

Think Before Preaching! (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611753)

US should think twice before preaching other countries on Free Market Economy!

India wasn't very pleased when Coca Cola, Pepsi, McDonalds, Pizza Hut and other took over the local fast food chains...but they didn't complain in /. either!

Re:Think Before Preaching! (2, Insightful)

BattleTroll (561035) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611868)

The second I'm allowed to work in India under an equivelent H1-B program will be when I stop preaching about Free Markets. The fact of the matter is the free market to India is a one way street.

Well.. My university (1)

SYSS Mouse (694626) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611755)

The case of University of Waterloo, Canada. One of the most famous university for computer studies They have a large co-op student population, many of them without a work for credit. And they bought (Yes, buy, not even getting someone to write one) software for student registration system and their web-based e-mail server, instead of getting students to write one. Good thing is that I am nt in computer science.

I must be in the wrong career track (4, Funny)

rcastro0 (241450) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611763)

I want back in the academic world !
(...)about $2 million was spent on technology and the salaries of folks at MIT who oversee the technology. (...) A student asks the speakers why they chose Microsoft Content Management Server (...) The answer: "We read a Gartner Group report (...)"

Dear future MIT graduates (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611791)

Yes, I would like fries with that.

Re:Dear future MIT graduates (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611907)


Please supersize my order!

Mwuhahahahahahaha!

Boston Local Sapient Friendly (2, Insightful)

Gargamell (716347) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611796)

I was lucky enuf to get there before the usual /. traffic turned it into gridlock so...

Yeah, that sounds pretty consistent with most companies. Take a silly task, have a outside company take care of it, and it just so happens that they do everything in India. A friend of mine works for Sapient, and he says all he does is have conference calls with the other side of world! I guess if he got hired tho, the MIT grads have a good chance too!

Another interesting spin was what a fella Rahul was saying about the demon of capitalism. Those that can do it cheaper and better will always get the money. Whether it is trully better or not is up for debate, but for those that are in industry know that most of the time, it is in the very least a very viable option. The thing that i want to put up to the flame is what people think of the "capitalistic" approach to the forum posting. I have heard all kinds of politicians speak on this: encouraging companies to stay here, global diversity increases the welfare for everyone, and i was curious what kind of experience or sources people might have to support either idea.

Overpriced Tuition (-1, Flamebait)

superpulpsicle (533373) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611803)

$35000 a year in tuition. MIT has no excuse to do anything overseas.

At this cost they should ship India folks over here to the U.S. and provide free palak paneer while they work on their open courseware.

Outsourcing, Good vs. Evil? (5, Insightful)

humandoing (237262) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611839)

I've been following this "outsourcing to India" thing for a while. I have come to several conclusions. The bigger picture here is NOT the fact that developers in North America are losing development contracts, this is just the continuation of a ball that is already rolling.... [read on for more drivel!]

Conclusion 1) US companies (among others, I'm canadian, it is no exception up here) are going to have to start doing a better job of giving customers and clients value for their budget. Call me a chump, I wanna make a ton of cash just as much as the next guy, but billing someone $100-$200 US/Hour and milking them for all they're worth is not (in my opinion) a good way to do business.

Conclusion 2) Lots of Indian guys are really smart. I hope this doesn't come as a surprise, but so are a lot of people from a lot of other ethnicities. I myself am white trash, but I know a lot of stupid canadian people too, as well as a ton of programmers in Canada who really otta be flipping burgers.

Conclusion 3) Corporations (in general) don't care about their employees, economics, or anything else, but rather, their bottom dollar. They don't care who they have to screw out of money, so long as it ends up in their own account.

Software development just seems to be the latest trend in an already downward spiral. It is the continuation of that which has already started as some slave child has made my Nike runners, and all the people that I try to talk to about why my phone bill is not being directly put onto my Visa bill have been fired in replacement of a computerizes lady who really can't tell me jack-all.

Perhaps unrelated, perhaps not. This is going to get worse, not beter, while capitalists run the world. What's going to be next? Perhaps more importantly, what can we do to change it?

Re:Outsourcing, Good vs. Evil? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611917)

Conclusion 3) Corporations (in general) don't care about their employees, economics, or anything else, but rather, their bottom dollar. They don't care who they have to screw out of money, so long as it ends up in their own account.

You can drop the "in general" part of your statement. Corporations would sell dead baby's toes if they could get away with it. If it was legalized, you'd have to lock up your children to keep them safe and Senators running on a pro-infanticide platform would have piles of campaign contributions being thrown at them.

Another Perspective on Jobs Lost Overseas (1)

jazman_777 (44742) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611874)

Here. [mises.org]

An interesting comment: 'What about workers who lack the job skills to fit into the higher and higher levels of sophisticated production in which the US is specializing? Because of the existence of scarcity, there will never be a shortage of jobs to do, so long as we live in time and not eternal bliss. The phrase "shortage of jobs" can only be colloquial; there is never a shortage of things to do. It is only a question of price, and the best way to raise the wages is to make sure that people do what they are most suited to do--which can only be known by letting markets work.'

Dear MIT (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611884)

If I had money your endownment would not get it.

Up Yours,
MIT Class of '97
Web Programmer, Sapient, Fired '01

Why, oh why (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7611903)

Why did they have to go to creepy Microsoft, if NCompass Resolution is the best CMS server out there, and has been industry leader for a while?

hmm no opensource availbe?huh? (2, Interesting)

linuxislandsucks (461335) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611928)

considerign that RMS is very close by and several OpenSource Content Managment system proejct leaders within 75 miles of MIT ..I find that it shard to believe that MIT did not even look in its own freaking backyard!

so how big was the MS payoff?

But isn't the idea of OpenCourseware (5, Insightful)

glenrm (640773) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611934)

that people all over the world can learn from it, not just MIT students. So it seems resonable to have it be in part developed by people from another location. Perhaps it is time to examine the government policies in states like California that have cause the cost of living to get out of hand and thus the need for unreasonable salaries for any worker. The US itself may need to look at radical reform of the tax code and radical limits of government spending to compete one day, but for today just a handful of states reforming themselves will turn the tide...

160 grand!? (1)

Tibor the Hun (143056) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611947)

MIT guys get are expected to get 160 grand right out of college? i could understand that an experienced phd would be shooting for that but your average graduate or MS grad?

wtf? did i miss the economic rebound? i know of positions paying less than 30 grand attracting 60 applicants.

Just the process of evolution? (4, Interesting)

GillBates0 (664202) | more than 10 years ago | (#7611965)

I had a long discussion about this topic with my brother-in-law who works on Wall Street. This was the essence of his take (and apparently other of his colleagues') on the issue.

As an economy (such as that of the US) grows, the quality of life and jobs of the population increases/improves.

The quality of jobs necessarily means the type of work that the population is willing to do. Jobs which were considered white-collar, and high quality slowly sink, and are no longer considered so as people get wealthier (I am talking about the entire population here--the average).

The country then looks to exporting those jobs, so that it's population can work on something better...maybe higher level jobs.

That is what happened to manufacturing...it was considered a menial process, and shipped out to China, while the higher quality jobs (management, etc) were retained in the US of A.

That is what is happening to software/IT now. I thought it was an interesting take on the issue, in which case, it is just one of the pitfalls in the process of economic evolution of the industry.

And yes, I am not an economist.

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