×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

cancel ×
This is a preview of your comment

No Comment Title Entered

Anonymous Coward 1 minute ago

No Comment Entered

367 comments

fp for Mike (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7622831)

tah fist post mastah

YOU ARE NOT LOGGED IN! (-1)

The Trolling Troller (579075) | more than 10 years ago | (#7622845)

YOU ARE NOT LOGGED IN!

Trolling troller, my ass! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623010)

You couldn't troll your mother on the trollingest day of your life if you had a electrified trolling machine.

Re:fp for Mike (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623359)

USER LINUX IS ON TEH SPOKE!!!!!

Allowed HTML:



  • WTF!!!!@#!@#@!#

Broken News: FP stolen from the GNAA (-1)

Captain Goatse (715400) | more than 10 years ago | (#7622833)

My stupid Micro$hit Crapdows TCP/IP stack might have prevented me from claiming the FP, sorry guys.

MOD PARENT DOWN! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623039)

-1, is that the best you pussy moderators can do?!!!

OMG!!!!111 (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7622835)

FP biatch

YFI!!!!111 (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623013)

A FAILURE IS YOU!

I don't know about you but (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7622842)

I'd prefer a formal analysis of a normal proposal rather than a normal analysis of a formal proposal.

Re:I don't know about you but (1)

rockclimber (660746) | more than 10 years ago | (#7622882)

>formal analysis of a normal proposal rather than a normal
>analysis of a formal proposal. i like an formal analysis on the normal proposal about UserLinux from a linux user...

Re:I don't know about you but (-1)

Captain Goatse (715400) | more than 10 years ago | (#7622918)

I'd prefer a normal formal analysis of a normal formal proposal rather than a normal formal normal analysis of a formal proposal normal of the normal formal analysis proposal.

By the way, can someone please register gnuse.cx for me, kthxbai.

What I'd Rather Have (4, Funny)

handy_vandal (606174) | more than 10 years ago | (#7623019)

I'd prefer a formal analysis of a normal proposal rather than a normal analysis of a formal proposal.

I'd rather have
a bottle in front of me
than a frontal lobotomy.

-kgj

Re:What I'd Rather Have (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623173)

I've always preferred this line:

I'd rather have
a free bottle in front of me
than a pre-frontal lobotomy.

Good One (1)

handy_vandal (606174) | more than 10 years ago | (#7623211)

I'd rather have
a free bottle in front of me
than a pre-frontal lobotomy.


Good one -- wish I'd thought of that!

-kgj

Re:Good One (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623333)

Id Rather have a NUDE NATALIE PORTMAN statuate, covered in HOT GRITS.

Dumb Fuckers.

PROPS TO MAUS AND PYRITE

GNU, GNOME, Debian, FSF, and now Gentoo (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623432)

Who's next on the list of Linux server breaches?

Be sure to mod me down, because Slashdot is hypocritical and pretends Linux is invincible, when meanwhile, Microsoft is hit with 2500-3000 attacks a day and hasn't been breached since October of 2000.

GNAASTEE is coming (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7622850)

GNAASTEE is coming

Re:GNAASTEE is coming (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623146)

Vooorrrrbbbb.

Xerhunth.

&

UserLinux vs Fedora (3, Informative)

Steve 'Rim' Jobs (728708) | more than 10 years ago | (#7622856)

Which one is more likely to grow the most mindshare in the future? I'd be interested to hear some opinions.

Personally I think UserLinux or something like it will prevail in the end. Red Hat exercizes too much control over Fedora IMHO.

Re:UserLinux vs Fedora (2, Interesting)

FubarPA (670436) | more than 10 years ago | (#7622889)

I think UserLinux has some potential. I'm very interested in seeing where it's going to end up. Using Debian as a base seems pretty good from a package standpoint, but I can see some heated debates revolving around which desktop environment will be deemed "standard". Personally, I use a mixture of both Gnome and KDE apps, but I run Gnome as the DE. I'll be keeping an eye on things, and I think if done right, UserLinux will overtake Fedora in the future.

Re:UserLinux vs Fedora (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7622968)

Using Debian to start with is a very bad decision. Everything in Debian is extremely out of date, starting with the most important packages and moving on. There isn't even a package for Perl 5.8, which has been out for a long time. Security in Debian is a joke seeing as four of their servers were recently rooted. If you use the stable branch of Debian, everything is insanely out of date. Unfortunately, it's also the only way to get security updates. Debian is nothing but a mess, and should be avoided at all costs.

If UserLinux is to be successful, they need to start with a better distro such as Redhat Enterprise Linux or SuSe.

Re:UserLinux vs Fedora (2, Informative)

theantix (466036) | more than 10 years ago | (#7623095)

It doesn't matter if you are ignorant or just trolling, but you have a point about how out of date Woody is for modern desktop installations. There really needs to be official support for application backports. Hopefully when Sarge goes stable that will be basically what the commercial debian-based distros (Xandros, Lindows et al) will be actually doing.

Re:UserLinux vs Fedora (2, Interesting)

spacecowboy420 (450426) | more than 10 years ago | (#7623179)

I like both "DE"s, but prefer the applications that kde has, and since functionallity is the ultimate goal, it is what I use. On the other hand Gnome does stuff better than kde i.e. context menus on panels, so I am torn. If the advantages of both were integrated, we would be on our way. Instead we have 2 not quite right options. I really don't believe it would kill the innovation of "DE"s if one was focused on, people will always want a choice. Even windows has litestep etc.

Ideally we use a version of Gnome, with many of the kde apps integrated out of the box without going the way of ximian desktop and hiding the functionallity normally available. Ultimately, the advances made in one enviroment will advance the other as well.

Just my $00.02

Gnome v. KDE (4, Interesting)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 10 years ago | (#7623340)

One nice thing about GNOME is that a commercial license is not necessary to write and distribute a proprietary GNOME application. That makes the customers life easier.

Bruce

Re:UserLinux vs Fedora (1, Insightful)

Hayzeus (596826) | more than 10 years ago | (#7622894)

Well, Fedora does the distinct advantage of existence (sorta)...

Re:UserLinux vs Fedora (1)

Hayzeus (596826) | more than 10 years ago | (#7622919)

Mmmm. The previous post was just my Tourettes acting up (again). Bark. Bark. Kindly disregard it. Bark.

Re:UserLinux vs Fedora (2, Interesting)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 10 years ago | (#7622930)

No, it's a fair criticism. But since we're basing on Debian, I think you can say that it exists, and for longer than Red Hat has existed.

Bruce

Re:UserLinux vs Fedora (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623258)

But since we're basing on Debian, I think you can say that it exists, and for longer than Red Hat has existed.

A fork will have to stand on its own merits, and your proposed fork does not exist, yet.

I'm sure once it does that having another distribution will solve all the problems of too many distributions to choose from, right? We'll all be sure to get behind this one because Bruce Perens said it was the most open.

Re:UserLinux vs Fedora (2, Interesting)

omega9 (138280) | more than 10 years ago | (#7623440)

  • My father is an axe murderer. As his son, I am based on my father. I would like the chance to be my own person, and don't enjoy meeting people who hold me in a certain light because of my fathers image.
  • I base all my financial decisions on what I believe Warren Buffet would do. Since my decisions are based on his, I should expect to soon gain millions of dollars.

You cannot hype UserLinux simply because it's based on Debian. While there's weight in where you came from, you have no choice but to prove yourself. We've all had plenty of time to become familiar with Debian. We've all had plenty of time to become familiar with the horde of other distributions based on Debian. We know what's been done and what's possible.

You could have made mention that you believe you have strong potential because you're based off a distribution with a longstanding reputation. But in two sentences it appears you've demonstrated that your zealotry for Debain can outweigh your vision for what could be best for the community.

Debian exists. UserLinux does not. At this moment anything and everything related to Debian has nothing to do with UserLinux until you stop writing theory and start producing product.

A bit risky (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623247)

Risky to use Linux, considering GNU, GNOME, Gentoo, and more have all been hacked in the past months.

Watching the Linux fanboys squirm every week a new breach is announced makes me smile.

formal bad - fun good (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7622870)

I'm fairly disgusted with formalities- we deal with them in day jobs, why the hell are we bringing them to things like linux.

It spoils the mood- I think I'll just write closed stuff for my own purposes. The other people can have their status meetings and kiss ass corporate style for a salary of $0.

UserLinux is bound to do better (4, Funny)

Rosco P. Coltrane (209368) | more than 10 years ago | (#7622885)

UnitedLinux to date seems to have had very little impact on the Linux user community - due to SCO's participation and the lack of unilateral support by Linux distribution vendors, most notably Red Hat.

Yes, having SCO and RedHat as organizations supporting your Linux project is a bit of a handicap ...

feh (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7622902)

this is just the Bruce Perens Full Employment proposal.

I have a question about this.. (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7622909)

And my question is who really gives a shit about UserLinux, or anything relating to Linux for that matter? Linux is really a niche operating system for people too cheap to pay for Solaris or Windows. It doesn't even have the stability and security of one of the BSD operating systems. Linux has a history of high-profile machines being compromised, including four machines operated by the Debian project, and a Gentoo rsync server. And by using Linux, you risk getting sued by SCO. How could anyone choose Linux over the other, superior, operating systems available?

Re:I have a question about this.. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7622937)

*yaaawn*

Re:I have a question about this.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7622938)

I see you have no understanding that Linux is simply the best for certain people. I've used both Solaris and Windows but as I like complete control I use Linux where I can. Free is nice- but control is better.

You need hand holding and someone to wipe where the sun don't shine- so use Windows, it isn't that bad,
but there really is a lot of interest in Linux.

Re:I have a question about this.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7622969)

You must be new around here.

Re-read the post, it's called a flamebait, and you swallowed it all, worm, hook and line.

Re:I have a question about this.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623454)

and you swallowed it all, worm, hook and line.

And the sinker, don't forget the sinker.... ahw shit you forgot the damn sinker.

Distributions too conservative (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7622932)

Why not a linux-games CD, for example?
There are tons of games on freshmeat.

Generally linux distributions are too scared and following the SYS-V standards: init scripts, a compiler, a shell, GNU shell utils and that's it. No innovation man!

Re:Distributions too conservative (4, Informative)

Rosco P. Coltrane (209368) | more than 10 years ago | (#7623078)

There are tons of games on freshmeat.

only 75% of which are free (as in speech), and 95% of those 75% being crap. Which leaves you only with a handful of really promising open-source games, and 2 or 3 really good original ones (that excludes Doom, Heretic, Duke3D, Quake and other previously-commercial-but-look-how-nice-we-are-we- released -the-source-code-to-you-guys kind of games).

Not much to make CDs out of really.

Re:Distributions too conservative (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623404)

Minesweeper runs exceptionally well under wine, could that be be included?

How about just "Debian" (5, Insightful)

reaper20 (23396) | more than 10 years ago | (#7622935)

I'm not stuck on the UserLinux name, and would listen to alternatives. I proposed gnUserLinux, but RMS didn't like it! He feels that having the GNU up front would signify that it's an FSF official project. UserGNULinux doesn't roll off of the tongue quite as easily.


I'm wondering why these ideas just can't be incorporated by the Debian project itself. They have a desktop subproject, why not just rally around the Debian banner ?

"Based on Debian" is great, but why not convince the project itself that this is the direction to go? Wouldn't this do nothing but improve the distribution? Who would be against that?

Re:How about just "Debian" (5, Informative)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 10 years ago | (#7622973)

Our goal is to get everything we do into Debian. Sometimes, Debian might not want it, or the package maintainer may be slow to accept it. So, I think we will end up having our own repository for fixes. But if we are unable to get Debian to take stuff, it is more expensive for us to maintain - we have incentive to work with Debian.

Thanks

Bruce

Re:How about just "Debian" (1)

windi (231689) | more than 10 years ago | (#7623048)

>Our goal is to get everything we do into Debian. Sometimes, Debian might not want it, or the package maintainer may be slow to accept it. So, I think we will end up having our own repository for fixes. But if we are unable to get Debian to take stuff, it is more expensive for us to maintain - we have incentive to work with Debian. Sounds great. Having all that integrated into Debian is really going to rock.
Since this is going to be a desktop distribution, how is it going to handle multimedia? Will it only support patent-free media formats or might there be a completely legal way to include, for example. mp3 (and other media formats) support?

Thanks for all your hard work.

Re:How about just "Debian" (1)

bamstead (593464) | more than 10 years ago | (#7623428)

I have been extremely happy with the Debian distribution for some time. My servers running stable are stable, and my desktop running unstable, well it keeps a window box close by. I don't get the "umbrella service organization, sitting on top of individual service companies".It sound to much like a single source. Single sources of anything should be avoided. Perhaps we should get a fillet knife and fillet Debian; we could fork it into a stable Desktop system with no server daemons, just good solid working "desktop" and admin apps. We can call it Nemo in the Pixar tradition.

Re:How about just "Debian" (2, Informative)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 10 years ago | (#7623444)

It's not only desktop. It must be desktop and server.

I think it should support the media formats that we can legally support in Open Source. The service companies may want to have their own, properly licensed, add-ons for formats that we can't support. I think we have the opportunity to push Ogg as a standard in the Userlinux venue.

Bruce

Just a friendly reminder... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623474)

Don't forget to pay your $699 licensing fee to SCO, so you can legally use Linux.

Re:How about just "Debian" (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623061)

Why start with Debian at all, though? Why not start from a better distribution such as SuSe, Mandrake, or Redhat Enterprise Linux? Debian has a history of trouble and should be avoided.

First of all, Debian is extremely user-unfriendly. If nothing else, it has a reputation of being next to impossible to install. If you can get it that far, there are no simple tools to use and maintain the system with, unlike the other distributions I suggested.

Second, Debian is extremely out of date. Even if you use unstable, packages such as Perl 5.8 are not available. And Perl 5.8 has been out for a long time. If you want software that was new two years ago, then Debian is the way to go. Otherwise, you're wise to choose a different distribution.

Third, Debian only applies security updates if you use the stable branch. This means that if you want to be confident that your computer is secure, you have to run even more out of date software. For most people, this is clearly unacceptable.

And fourth, the Debian project itself has a horrible record of security. Just recently, four of its machines were compromised. They weren't hit through some unknown exploit, but because a user sent an unencrypted password over the network. Use of encrypted passwords has been standard for some time around, and if the maintainers of the distribution can't practice basic security measures on their own machines, I can't trust their software running on mine.

I'm sorry, but if you don't pick a better distribution to start with, UserLinux will never take off. Debian is just not the way to go.

Re:How about just "Debian" (5, Interesting)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 10 years ago | (#7623288)

Well, I don't agree with your criticism of Debian.

First, installation is being adressed. The currently-released installer is a rewrite of one I made in 1996 or so. It was great for 1996. I wrote Busybox for that installer, by the way. The new installer being tested for the next release has positive reviews. There is also a port of Red Hat's installer.

But the most important thing about installers is that they are run once. People base entire distribution reviews on the installer, which is just stupid.

Debian has Perl 5.6 in unstable at the moment. I don't know if 5.8 is very different, and what the Perl maintainer has to say about it. Why not ask him?

Unstable gets security updates to the main branch, rather than to security.debian.org . Security.debian.org exists because of the need to bypass the release management for stable to get fixes in immediately.

Regarding the security record of various distributions, I don't think the commercial ones will tell us if they are hit, unless it becomes obvious from outside. Who knows how often they have been compromised? Gentoo just announced a compromise, perhaps based on the same brk() bug.

The really impressive thing about the Debian breach was that it happened at 5 PM, they had detected and confirmed a breach and had the sites shut down by 10 PM, they announced the breach at 10 AM, and they did the forensics and found an unsuspected exploit within about a week. I dare you to show me a commercial Linux distribution that has been that timely.

Bruce

Re:How about just "Debian" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623343)

YHBT YHL HAND

Re:How about just "Debian" (1)

Kethinov (636034) | more than 10 years ago | (#7623471)

But the most important thing about installers is that they are run once. People base entire distribution reviews on the installer, which is just stupid.
Not me. Installers are important, but package management is way more important. I'm a Gentoo user. I think portage is superior to apt. But I also think both apt and portage don't cut it. What we need is a better package management system that even grandma could use. Is UserLinux going to try and solve that problem or just slap a frontend on apt and call it good to go?

Re:How about just "Debian" (3, Informative)

virtual_mps (62997) | more than 10 years ago | (#7623482)

To be fair, people @suse and @redhat provided great assistence during the investigation of the debian incident. I would like to see the incident held up as a model of cooperation between the various parts (commercial and noncommercial) of the linux community.

Re:How about just "Debian" (2, Insightful)

bfree (113420) | more than 10 years ago | (#7623489)

I was about to reply quite similarly but thought I'd check back to see who had beaten me too it! One thing, Perl 5.8.0-18 is in unstable.

Re:How about just "Debian" (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623492)

1) Knoppix has a nice installer, and it is based on Debian. I don't know if Userlinux will steal this installer, or if they will use the official Debian installer.


2) Debian testing uses perl 5.8.0-18. You should check your facts before posting.


3) Unstable also gets security updates. (I agree that testing is problematic).


4) I don't think that it is fair to claim that Debian has a horrible record of security.

FAKE USER NAME ALERT (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623098)

Parent post is not the real Bruce Perens. [slashdot.org]

Re:How about just "Debian" (1)

runfaster (687790) | more than 10 years ago | (#7623126)

I'd appreciate this side of UserLinux. A bit faster with package updates than, say, debian stable? UserLinux wouldn't be slowed down by the debian integration process (much), but at the same time, there is incentive to get it in eventually. That said, I hope this is strongly based on Debian. Not just apt-get, but things like the Debian way of compiling the kernel, etc. What'd be even nicer is when some of those things are automated in a GUI (not just the KDE, GNOME things), to reach out to less saavy users. Not at the cost of bogging down a streamlined Debian, however.

My suggestions (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623128)

* GUI everything: If it's not a system crash, the desktop PC should be able to handle everything in GUI. Perhaps console programs that have a GUI counterpart (you run guiFdisk and you get a pretty "partition magic" type interface, but the real work is done by fdisk). Both parts would probably need to be written together for this to work seemlessly.

* Look to Windows. I hate to use them as a Linux standard, but seriously! If Microsofts 'Distribution' can do it, UserLinux needs to at least take note of it. Where Microsoft is criticized, Linux in general needs to be careful. I'm not just talking about critisism FROM the Linux comunity, but major distributions need to keep tabs on what excites/displeases regular win23 users.

* I don't know enough to comment on how the system should keep tabs on packages, but it would be nice to be able to make sense of dependancies. This isn't a specific recomendation, just a general thought: remember the "device manager" tree in Windows, something like that with at least two tabs. One would have at the top level only packages that have no dependancies. The next level would be packages that directly rely on them, and then the packeges that rely on them, and so on. The other tab would work the opposite direction, starting with a list of all packages and branching into the packages that they rely on. Perhaps the user would even be able to click on a package and get more detail. Something of this nature would allow users to get a sense of 'whos who' among their packages.

* Shoot for the next generation Linux, but do it while aiming at a more distant target. It would be very nice if 20 years from now UserLinux was not a hack upon a hack to keep it up to date (not suggesting that anyone else is).

* Don't lose track of all the user input. This is probably reduntant for me to say, but I'll say it anyway. Michael Collins who rode Apollo 11 wrote in his book "Carrying the Fire" that he kept a notebook and everytime something ocurred to him about the mission he would write it down. If he was in a resturaunt, he would write it down on a napkin, take it home, and copy it into his notebook. He refuse to launch until every concern in his notebook was checked off. Keep track of all good user input in one place.

Finally,

GOOD LUCK!!!
("You're going to need it.")

Re:My suggestions (1)

runfaster (687790) | more than 10 years ago | (#7623172)

* GUI everything While it would be nice to have a GUI for every operation, this needs to be done in a way that allows Debian to retain its natural advanages. i.e-> Debian's speed and small size. I'd hate to see these inextricably integrated into debian (I certainly don't want them) but maybe added like RH's "Administration Tools" category

Re:How about just "Debian" (1)

rgmoore (133276) | more than 10 years ago | (#7623275)

It seems to me that an obvious example of this would be your idea of having more automated configuration. You suggested having a sort of configuration metapackage that had the primary package as a dependency and then did the work of configuring the primary package after it was installed. Debian might or might not want such a thing as part of their system, so it might be necessary to maintain it separately from the main Debian tree.

I'd assume that some of the ease of installation could be handled by a similar use of metapackages. Each function that a system might fill would have its own metapackage that didn't do anything except for having a set of dependencies that would cause the system to install appropriate functionality. A "desktop" package would have a basic desktop environment, productivity software, and the like, while a "Windows Server" package would include SAMBA plus configuration tools. This would work well with the idea of minimizing the number of different tools for a given job; if you provide only one MTA then you can make a lot more assumptions about setting up a mail server than if you had several choices.

Re:How about just "Debian" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623307)

Cool. Try to build good relations with Debian and clear the ROE with them. The most important thing is the two projects to build bridges between each other. Good Luck.

Re:How about just "Debian" (2, Interesting)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 10 years ago | (#7623380)

Well, the fact that I am ex Debian Project Leader, a member of the SPI board (Debian's corporation) and Debian's representative to some standards groups means that the bridge already exists, doesn't it? My task is to extend that bridge to the business people who participate in this.

Bruce

Re:How about just "Debian" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623408)

Somehow I doubt the bridge is as good as you say it is, though. Debian is really the outcast of all the popular Linux distributions. And it's in that role by choice, not because the other distributions shun it. An example was back in May of this year when developers from Redhat, SuSe, Mandrake, and Debian were invited to a conference in Germany to discuss the future of Linux. In addition, many top names not associated with any particular distribution such as Linux Torvalds and Alan Cox were invited. All the major distributions were well represented at the conference, except Debian, which turned its back and refused to send even one representative to the meeting. Debian is anti-social as far as Linux distributions go.

Re:How about just "Debian" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623289)

It's because Debian is fucking vulnerable to kernel exploits.

Hell, Linux as a whole has been pretty hacked up lately. GNU? GNOME? Debian? Gentoo?

Why even bother? BSD is there, you know.

Couldn't help it.... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7622943)

I'm looking for Mark R. Hinkle... and a clean pair of shorts! :D

hi, my name is...what? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7622944)

my name is...who? my name is...Bruce Perens hi, my name is
huh? my name is...what? my name is...Bruce Perens

Excuse me
Can I have the attention of the class for one second

hi kids, do you like Slashdot and the Beanies?(yeah yeah yeah)
wanna see me stick ASCII birds on the end of my penis? (uh huh)
wanna copy me and do exactly like i did? (yeah yeah)
try 'sid=k22320inchfan and get fucked up worse than my site is?
MySQL's dead weight, it crashes more often than rail freight
but i cant figure out which one out of Taco and Hemos i wanna imitate (umm)
and RMS said (Bruce Perens you a freebaser)
uh uh (then what's wit' that fucken beard, man you never heard of a razor)
well since age two i felt like i'm someone new
'cuz i hung my original GNU from the top of the Slashdot Cruiser
got told off and ripped the Slash code off
and made myself technocrat net so the world can hear me blow my load off
i'll smoke a fat pound of grass and talk out my ass
and delete any l33t troll who never got modded down fast
come here slut (Perens wait a minute that's my girl, dog)
i dont give a fuck, God sent me to piss the world off

hi, my name is...
what? my name is...who? my name is...Bruce Perens hi, my name is huh? my name is...
what? my name is...Bruce Perens
my stockbroker wanted me to make a quick killin'
thanx a lot, now I'm sittin on a pot of VA Linux stock that used to be worth a million
so i smacked him in his face with a hammer, slammed his balls in a scanner
and beat him so badly he's fucked up like Taco's grammer
walked in Slashdot, had my jacket fastened up
flamed my impersonator and stuck my dick in a plastic cup
extra-terrestrial, runnin' over pedestrians, in a green SUV
while they screamin (shit that's the Cruiser!)
ninety-nine percent of my life i was trolled to
i just found out Eric Raymond does more dope than i do (damn)
i told her i'd grow up to be a famous slashbot
become quite rich when the ipo dust has settled and spend it all on crack rocks.
you know you blew up when the geeks rush your stands
and try to touch your hands like some screamin anime fans
this guy at the Geek Compound asked me for my autograph (dude, can I get your autograph?)
so i signed it 'Dear Emmett, Thanks for the support, craphound.

'hi, my name is...
what? my name is...who? my name is...Bruce Perens
hi, my name is huh? my name is...
what, my name is...Bruce Perens

stop the backup tape, this kid needs to be locked away (get him)
Linus, don't just stand there, get the MPAA!
i'm not ready to leave, it's too scary to die
i'd rather be carried inside a Slashdot Cruiser and buried alive
am i comin or goin? i can barely decide
i just smoked a bunch of Drano crystal, dare me to drive? (go ahead)
all my life i was very boring
i ain't had a woman in years, my wrists ache from Karma whoring
clothes rip like the Sultan of Swat
i spit when i talk, my name ends in a dot (no it doesn't)
when i was little i used to masturbate quite an amount
(how you gonna keep on posting mom I bitchslapped your account!)
I lie awake and night and think "Is my asshole bigger than the guy in that goatsex link?"
and shoot myself in the ass till its pink (bang) till i'm sick
and by the way when you see Fascdot, tell him that i slit his PRick

hi, my name is...what? my name is...who? my name is...Bruce Perens hi, my name is
huh? my name is...what, my name is...Bruce Perens

My own humble suggestions: (4, Insightful)

Steve 'Rim' Jobs (728708) | more than 10 years ago | (#7622946)

* GUI everything: If it's not a system crash, the desktop PC should be able to handle everything in GUI. Perhaps console programs that have a GUI counterpart (you run guiFdisk and you get a pretty "partition magic" type interface, but the real work is done by fdisk). Both parts would probably need to be written together for this to work seemlessly.

* Look to Windows. I hate to use them as a Linux standard, but seriously! If Microsofts 'Distribution' can do it, UserLinux needs to at least take note of it. Where Microsoft is criticized, Linux in general needs to be careful. I'm not just talking about critisism FROM the Linux comunity, but major distributions need to keep tabs on what excites/displeases regular win23 users.

* I don't know enough to comment on how the system should keep tabs on packages, but it would be nice to be able to make sense of dependancies. This isn't a specific recomendation, just a general thought: remember the "device manager" tree in Windows, something like that with at least two tabs. One would have at the top level only packages that have no dependancies. The next level would be packages that directly rely on them, and then the packeges that rely on them, and so on. The other tab would work the opposite direction, starting with a list of all packages and branching into the packages that they rely on. Perhaps the user would even be able to click on a package and get more detail. Something of this nature would allow users to get a sense of 'whos who' among their packages.

* Shoot for the next generation Linux, but do it while aiming at a more distant target. It would be very nice if 20 years from now UserLinux was not a hack upon a hack to keep it up to date (not suggesting that anyone else is).

* Don't lose track of all the user input. This is probably reduntant for me to say, but I'll say it anyway. Michael Collins who rode Apollo 11 wrote in his book "Carrying the Fire" that he kept a notebook and everytime something ocurred to him about the mission he would write it down. If he was in a resturaunt, he would write it down on a napkin, take it home, and copy it into his notebook. He refuse to launch until every concern in his notebook was checked off. Keep track of all good user input in one place.

Finally,

GOOD LUCK!!!
("You're going to need it.")

Re:My own humble suggestions: (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623000)

You know, it's quite obvious when you repost stuff from the anti-slash.org database.

I'd like to add.. (4, Insightful)

msimm (580077) | more than 10 years ago | (#7623076)

Don't throw every application into it. As a counter-part to the "gui everything" I think its important that we at some point have a distribution that's is fully and transparently integrated. No more merely cobbling great products together. Success will mean true consistency, maybe then the rest of us will see that its not all that bad.

Re:My own humble suggestions: (0)

the_2nd_coming (444906) | more than 10 years ago | (#7623132)

I would rather look to Mac OS X than windows for everything.

OS X does more things better than Windows, though there are some things Windows does that are good and should be used.

Re:My own humble suggestions: (1)

GlassHeart (579618) | more than 10 years ago | (#7623188)

GUI everything: If it's not a system crash, the desktop PC should be able to handle everything in GUI.

Gosh, no. Not even Mac OS X does that. All you need to take care of in a GUI are the tasks that normal users are expected to do. Advanced users, developers, and administrators can cope with more complex interfaces. I think the more important task is to make it a good GUI, which is very hard. Imagine a UI that can allow a novice to configure a firewall or mail server correctly.

I don't know enough to comment on how the system should keep tabs on packages, but it would be nice to be able to make sense of dependancies.

Or ignore dependencies (at the user level). Most users want to install a named program, like "OpenOffice.org" or "Mozilla", and could not care less what libraries that will bring in.

What will determine the success of Linux on the desktop is not what you add, but what you successfully hide. This includes many options and details that a developer might think nobody can live without, and may include entire applications that are not as good in most respects to another. "Successful" here is determined by the percentage of time the user can spend doing productive work.

Philosophically, the desktop is about "because it's really useful", not "because we can". Win or lose will depend on whether the Linux community can change its mindset.

Re:My own humble suggestions: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623264)

> Not even Mac OS X does that.

Which should be considered a flaw in MacOS X, because previous versions did not rely on the command line at all, and Apple loudly advertised that fact.

I can't think of a desktop administration task that can not be completed with GUI on Windows.

> Imagine a UI that can allow a novice to configure a firewall or mail server correctly

No need to imagine that, because there's only about a million firewall and mail server products with GUIs. However, neither of those have anything to do with a end-user distribution.

Re:My own humble suggestions: (1)

rgmoore (133276) | more than 10 years ago | (#7623439)

Most users want to install a named program, like "OpenOffice.org" or "Mozilla", and could not care less what libraries that will bring in.

I think that most users don't even think at that level. Most people think at the level of basic function rather than specific programs. If they're setting up a desktop, they want to get a basic desktop environment, email, web browser, word processor, spreadsheet, presentation program, utilities, etc. without having to say so. So the system should just have a "Standard Desktop" option that will install all that stuff without the user needing to fiddle over each and every program in the group. You could have a fallback system that would let you install package-by-package if you needed, but I doubt that most users would use it much.

Re:My own humble suggestions: (1)

phoxix (161744) | more than 10 years ago | (#7623222)

* GUI everything: If it's not a system crash, the desktop PC should be able to handle everything in GUI. Perhaps console programs that have a GUI counterpart (you run guiFdisk and you get a pretty "partition magic" type interface, but the real work is done by fdisk). Both parts would probably need to be written together for this to work seemlessly.

Mandrake already does this ....

Just yesterday I setup my friend's scanner, TV card, and got his networked windows printer working in linux via *purely GUI* tools.

Sunny Dubey

What about Mac BSD? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623305)

Windows is not what I would consider an ideal end-user experience. Why not look at the 20 years of history of the Macintosh desktop computer, as well as the more recent experience and "lessons learned" with MacOSX. Apple may have created the most beautiful and well-behaved *nix GUI of them all (not like there isn't room for improvement there, either).

Just a thought.

Is this another distribution? What's the point? (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7622980)

There's already tons of distributions that are focused on end users -- It's really unclear what the point of another one is. It seems like this is just an attempt to make Debian more popular by packaging it better, but it's not clear why a that can't be done by the existing Debian project.

Also, the idea that YA distro could become some sort of "standard" reminds one of SCO's "UnitedLinux" plan.

Re:Is this another distribution? What's the point? (4, Informative)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 10 years ago | (#7623105)

Please read the paper [userlinux.com]. That will explain something of what I am trying to do. The main thrust is not a radical improvement in user-friendliness. The "User" in the name is due to the user-supported nature of the economic paradigm I am proposing.

Bruce

Re:Is this another distribution? What's the point? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623144)

Bruce, why don't you clean up the mess known as Debian before cutting into another pie?

Debian is so far behind the times that it has become something of a joke. Probably no other distribution suffers as much bit rot as Debian. Roll up your sleeves and fix it.

I must say, you don't lack for hubris.

Re:Is this another distribution? What's the point? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623376)

"Debian is so far behind the times that it has become something of a joke."

ok, you have no idea what debian is...

Re:Is this another distribution? What's the point? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623312)

But why do you bother? OS X already exists and provides the best GUI on top of a BSD-based operating system. Our ultimate UNIX desktop system is already there! Why bother with Linux?

I mean, what could Linux possibly hope to achieve besides more security breaches, stupid project names nobody can pronounce, anti-"M$" fanaticism, and ripping off Windows features while claiming to be the alternative to Windows?

Re:Is this another distribution? What's the point? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623451)

OK, I understand the reaction to the fact that supported, commercial software (RH, Suse) ain't cheap.

However, that doesn't answer why this isn't being done within Debian itself. I'd also like to see you respond to the complaint that Debian Stable is way out of date for a desktop distro. Or is this basically a fork of Debian?

Also, does this really solve the "development/support cost" problem or is it just riding on the work of RedHat and others?

Give me a standard, any standard... (5, Insightful)

Ian Bicking (980) | more than 10 years ago | (#7623003)

I think part of the point of UserLinux, and standards in general, is just to tip the scales when less involved developers make choices.

When I'm developing software I frequently come to a decision point where there's multiple protocols, implementations, or standards I can support. I often (usually!) don't care about which one I use, so long as it's not insanely bad. For example, I don't care where my program's files go, so long as I can find them. I don't care what port I use, so long as it doesn't conflict with other programs. I don't care about the file format, but it would be nice if other tools could handle it. And so on.

Standards make it easy to make a decision in these cases. Because lots of decisions are important but not useful. Let a standard committee figure it out for me -- whatever important details there are that I don't understand, they can think about those. And when they are done, they don't have to present a justification of why they are right -- they just have to tell me, the developer, what I'm supposed to do.

Competition can be useful. But only when it's interesting. I know, things that are interesting to one person aren't interesting to another. I don't care about exim vs. postfix vs. qmail, but I'm sure there are people who care very much. I guess part of a standard is a way of making both of those possible -- making it so I don't have to care (because they all talk SMTP) while another person can make decisions that are useful to them. Of course, SMTP is only a start -- I like /etc/aliases too, because it's easy to understand, but it's also limited. A growing standard might extend that -- and well it should, because having a single way to express aliases would be very useful. In this way a standard can grow, and slowly pick off the pieces where useful diversity doesn't exist (only annoying diversity).

I think UserLinux could be successful if it finds low hanging fruit first -- standardizing boring things, where the participants are easy to convince. There might be things that are more useful to standardize (like a GUI toolkit), but down that road leads certain failure.

Need Meta-Standards (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623265)

What is missing is metastandards. Sure we have TCPIP, SMTP, FTP, HTTP ..... etc, but we are missing higher level standards that surround such activities as:

Installation, compilation, platform and hardware identification, common GUI methods to build unified desktops.

Of course I accept we already have RPMs and 'standards' in install scripts but this is not enough.

We need to establish (several) standard models
which everyone agrees is the template for a higher level organism like a 'home PC' or 'office PC'.

These 'meta-standards' should be the next place to concentrate efforts in the OSS community.

Re:Give me a standard, any standard... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623362)

But foaming-at-the-mouth Linux fanboys HATE standards! They constantly cry about how Linux is all about "choice," which really means 100 different windowing libraries, 100 different text editors, and 100 different distros (all being hacked one by one as the months go by).

Vork beutyjoi sdfuui (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623007)

Anrr, jerlpih awh. Meyj qdalk pirl vo. Hown dlavc w aool nhaer? Peh.

Re:Vork beutyjoi sdfuui (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623086)

Pneh? whoiy htonth pwe - ith kallann pne thiun? Avner!

Re:Vork beutyjoi sdfuui (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623109)

Jurn nathrety plo, tebrfa iovn bo frenbev awces 'Jrenva' - phush til.

Skelnet PONXUC threggi ???? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623129)

Polk anthre wex.

They might want to chat with Sun... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623031)

With Sun the "overnight" 800lb guerilla of Linux Desktops, seems to me that if this is going to have ANY success, they'll need to be on board.

But there's that nagging issue that it's a "Enterprise" desktop vs a User Desktop.

But even so, while a User Desktop may not be an Enterprise Desktop, the reverse is true, or at least should be.

Re:They might want to chat with Sun... (3, Insightful)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 10 years ago | (#7623074)

Remember that the Java Desktop is really GNOME. Java is a brand-name for the desktop, and they package their VM with it so that they can say it has something to do with the Java language. But the desktop doesn't run via Java.

I am also more than a little dubious about the announced Sun-China deal and how it will really play out.

Bruce

Re:They might want to chat with Sun... (2, Funny)

DeltaSigma (583342) | more than 10 years ago | (#7623273)

I hate to take a good discussion off course. But with all due respect, sir, you're stealing all our karma!

Re:They might want to chat with Sun... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623314)

Yes, of course, but on the other side of the coin, Sun is a large company that has taken the Desktop "issue" head on, for good or ill.

If something like China hits, then Sun "all of a sudden" is a massively deployed desktop solution, and anything massively deployed becomes a haven for developers.

Simple example with GNOME. If the Sun/China deal happens, then overnight the demand for KDE apps et al, at least in that domain, will vanish.

*poof*

If Sun gains any traction with a Linux Desktop with GNOME then the question of "which GUI to use" becomes moot very quickly for any vendor looking for a market with an installed base in a corporate setting.

Since picking a GUI for UserLinux is one of its tasks, it would certainly be silly IMHO to pick one that is counter to this potential new fact in the marketplace.

NotYourLinux (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623120)

UnitedLinux, UserLinux, Fedora (community) -- add this to the many other linux distros and it becomes a bit more daunting.

I understand the task is to unite all the distros so we can get inter-distro compatibility and all that. There's hope that it works out. Because I'm such a nice guy, I'll offer this:

KDE 3.2, APT as the package manager, Oo.org as the office suite, mplayer, xmms, k3b, mozilla (firebird), evolution, and most importantly, frozen bubble.

So standardize on that! Oh, relax. I could've said Lindows.

My suggestions. (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623268)

For UserLinux to succeed, it must.
  • Have only ONE GUI. No KDE vs Gnome, just standardize on one, but keep compatibllity libraries for leagacy gtk apps until they are replaced by modern QT apps
  • The command line must be disabled by default, and the only way to get it is to install an unspported rpm, with a huge disclaimer in bold red text saying explicitly that they can destroy their system, and the user must sign a disclaimer and have to enter in a 50 character activation code to confirm that they want to use such dangerous software.
  • Up to date software in the STABLE distribution, with contiuous upgrades for FREE. Release a core distribution every year, with service packs throughout the year. For example UserLinux 2004, UserLinux 2005 SP3.
  • One of each app, no more. One text editor, mp3 player, video player, image viewer, office suite, email client, image minupulation program.
  • Must come with comprehensive documentation, with interface reviews, proofreading and all. With the option to have PRINTED manuals, access to a moderated user forum (read: RTFM response not allowed)
  • Must come with support to migrate from leagcy Windows Apps, with wine, and a guide to equivlents for various applications from windows. EG Konqueror instead of IE, Evoloution instead of Outlook, OpenOffice instead of Microsoft Office
  • Most importantly, ALL options MUST be configurable from the gui. If just one thing, no matter how advanced, or geeky, has to be done from the command line or a text file, THEN YOU HAVE FAILED.

Re:My suggestions. (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623354)

They've got one of those here [microsoft.com]. Well, except for the FREE part...and the Linux part and the secure part and the stable part. I guess the good news is you won't need WINE with it.

Alright (1)

DeltaSigma (583342) | more than 10 years ago | (#7623319)

...I am currently in negotiation with an industry group that proposes to fund between $1Million or more annually to pay for the engineering of a fully supported and certified GNU/Linux system, without a per-seat fee, that meets the specific needs of their industry. That group represents approximately 50,000 desktop or server units - do the math and you'll see that they would save tremendously over Enterprise Linux.
This is enough for me. 50,000 users have a need. Let's fill it. Any room for a web/graphic designer in there? I love being involved in pretty interfaces!

Enterpise Debian (3, Insightful)

Usquebaugh (230216) | more than 10 years ago | (#7623349)

I am all for an Enterprise Debian, I think most companies would also prefer a professinal open solution to RedHat/Novell/Sun. Most developers would.

This project will obviously address the needs of it's sponsors, reading the paper it sounds like this is a for a desktop replacement for Windows, why not be more specific about your sponsors needs. As for KDE/GNOME didn't FreeDesktop address this? What is the future plans for your sponsors? How often do they wish to patch, how often do they wish to upgrade etc etc. More info.

What happens when other orgs want their version of Debian Enterprise, say an LTSP version or a MOSIX cluster? Do we have multiple Enterprise Debians?

I think you will need to be far more strict than you imagine to cut down the packages used. I'm sorta thinking a new release of debian that things from Debian-Stable get promoted from. Or indeed a subset of debian-Stable.

Why not build a testing framework as your version of Linux? Take Debian-Stable, reduce the package count to a minimum. Write the AUTOMATED test. Then anybody can write software for your system. The validation is that after they've installed their software your test framework still executes correctly. Test early, test often.

Cerifitcation will have to happen on many levels. Hardware players IBM,Sun etc need to certify your code. Infrastructure software needs to certify your code. Apps software needs to certify your code. Developer/Admin/User certification will need to be available.

Make no mistake $1m a year is not a lot of change and this is a _HUGE_ undertaking.

OFF TOPIC - SORRY (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7623425)

CNN has a poll right now: www.cnn.com/lou Do you believe digital voting machines should be required to print a paper record of each vote? Presumably they will announce the results on air, and this is a great opportunity to spur public intrest in the issue. Sorry this is off topic, just thought this was the quickest way to get a large response to the poll.
Load More Comments
Slashdot Account

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?

Don't worry, we never post anything without your permission.

Submission Text Formatting Tips

We support a small subset of HTML, namely these tags:

  • b
  • i
  • p
  • br
  • a
  • ol
  • ul
  • li
  • dl
  • dt
  • dd
  • em
  • strong
  • tt
  • blockquote
  • div
  • quote
  • ecode

"ecode" can be used for code snippets, for example:

<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>
Sign up for Slashdot Newsletters
Create a Slashdot Account

Loading...