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UserLinux May Go Without KDE

michael posted more than 10 years ago | from the can't-have-any-pudding dept.

KDE 964

Anonymous BillyGoat writes "For the past few days, there has been considerable debate at the UserLinux mailing list about the (proposed) non-inclusion of KDE in the distro. The KDE developers have written a proposal opposing the decision to go with GNOME as the sole UserLinux GUI, while Bruce Perens has posted a response."

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Letter "A" now internationally copyrighted (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7769620)

From now on, whenever you use the letter "a", or the uppercase version, "A", you are required to put the copyright ((C)) symbol next to the letter. This is optional until January 1st, 2004, when we (Microsoft) will be prosecuting offenders.

Re:Letter "A" now internationally copyrighted (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7769865)

You mean as in
  1. m
  2. aicrosoft
or
  1. M
  2. AICROSOFT
.

FUCKING BITCHES (-1)

CmdrTaco (troll) (578383) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769622)

STOP STEALING MUSIC and pay that goddamned fee you tea smoking cockbaggers.

Re:FUCKING BITCHES (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7769682)

HaHa! Sceond Psot!

The Official Final Fantasy 11 Fan Club Announces a (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7769625)

The Official Final Fantasy 11 Fan Club Announces acquisition of SCO
By Tim Copperfield
New York, NY - #FFXI (The Official Final Fantasy 11 Fan Club) today announced acquisition of The SCO Group [yahoo.com] for $26.9 million in stock and $40 million in FFXI game credits.

#FFXI today announced it has signed a definitive agreement to acquire the intellectual property and technology assets of The SCO Group, a leading provider of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt, based in Lindon, Utah. #FFXI's acquisition of SCO technology will help #FFXI sign up more members worldwide. In addition to developing new solutions, #FFXI will use SCO engineering expertise and technology to enhance the #FFXI member services.

"I'd love to see these #FFXI types slowly consumed by millions of swarming microbes and converted into harmless and useful biochemicals." said an anonymous slashdot poster, blinded by the #FFXI success in achieving first post on a popular geek news website, slashdot.org [slashdot.org] .

"This #FFXI shit is getting out of hand. Slashdot needs troll filters. Or better yet a crap flood mod that I can exclude from my browsing. Seriously, a good troll is art, what you dumb fucks are doing is just plain stupid." said spacecowboy420.

macewan, on linuxquestions [linuxquestions.org] said "Thanks for that link to the SCO quotes page. My guess is that they want to be bought out. Hrm, think they want #FFXI to buy them??"

After careful consideration and debate, #FFXI board of directors agreed to purchase 6,426,600 preferred shares and 113,102 common shares (the equivalent of 150,803 ADSs) of SCO, for an aggregate consideration of approximately US$26.9 million and approximately $40 million for FFXI fans that were working in Lindon, Utah offices of The SCO Group.

If all goes well, the final decision is to be expected shortly, followed by transfer of most SCO FFXI fans from their Lindon, UT offices to the #FFXI Headquarters in New York.

About #FFXI
#FFXI (The Official Final Fantasy 11 Fan Club) is the first organization which
gathers FFXI fans from all over America and abroad for one common goal - being ANIME FAGGOTS.

Are you GAY [klerck.org] ?
Are you a INTO ANIMU [mugshots.org] ?
Are you a ALONE FOR LIFE [gay-sex-access.com] ?

If you answered "Yes" to any of the above questions, then #FFXI (The Official Final Fantasy 11 Fan Club) might be exactly what you've been looking for!
Join #FFXI (The Official Final Fantasy 11 Fan Club) today, and enjoy all the benefits of being a full-time #FFXI member.
#FFXI (The Official Final Fantasy 11 Fan Club) is the fastest-growing FFXI fan community with THOUSANDS of members all over United States of America and Japan. You, too, can be a part of #FFXI if you join today!

Why not? It's quick and easy - only 3 simple steps!

First, you have to obtain a copy of FINAL FANTASY 11 [squaresoft.com] and play it.

Second, you need to join the official #FFXI irc channel #FFXI on EFNet, and ask them "how do I summoned chocobot?" in a tautological fashion (repetition).

Third, you need to succeed in posting a #FFXI "first post" on slashdot.org [slashdot.org] , a popular "news for gooks" website

Finally, talk to one of the ops or any of the other members in the channel to sign up today!

If you are having trouble locating #FFXI, the official The Official Final Fantasy 11 Fan Club irc channel, you might be on a wrong irc network. The correct network is EFNet, and you can connect to irc.secsup.org or irc.isprime.com as one of the EFNet servers.
If you do not have an IRC client handy, you are free to use the free CGI IRC client by clicking here [efnet.info] .

About SCO
The SCO Group [SCOX [yahoo.com] ] helps millions of FFXI fans in more than 82 countries around the world grow their penises everyday. Headquartered in Lindon, Utah, SCO has a network of more than 11,000 animu resellers and 8,000 developers. SCO Global Services provides reliable animu support and services to prospective members and customers.
SCO and the associated SCO logo are trademarks or registered trademarks of The SCO Group, Inc. in the U.S. and other countries. UNIX and UnixWare are registered trademarks of The Open Group in the United States and other countries. All other brand or product names are or may be trademarks of their respective owners.

This news release contains forward-looking statements that involve risks, uncertainties and assumptions. All statements other than statements of historical fact are statements that could be deemed forward-looking statements. These statements are based on management's current expectations and are subject to uncertainty and changes in circumstances. Actual results may vary materially from the expectations contained herein. The forward-looking statements contained herein include statements about the consummation of the transaction with SCO and benefits of the pending transaction with SCO. Factors that could cause actual results to differ materially from those described herein include the inability to obtain regulatory approvals and the inability to successfully integrate the SCO business. #FFXI is under no obligation to (and expressly disclaims any such obligation to) update or alter its forward-looking statements, whether as a result of new information, future events or otherwise.


If you have mod points and would like to support #FFXI, please moderate this post up.

________________________________________________
_#_#__FFFf_FFFf__x___x__III_____________________
#####_F____F______X_x____I______________________
_#_#__Fff__Fff_____X_____I______________________
#####_F____F______x_X____I______________________
_#_#__F____F_____x___x__III_____________________
________________________________________________
____________Official_Final_Fantasy_11_Fan_Club__

deeznutz (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7769628)

on yer chin

wtf? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7769630)

I thought userlinux was a Linux kernel extension, not a Linux distribution?!?!

Re:wtf? (4, Informative)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769648)

user mode linux != userlinux. HTH, HAND.

Re:wtf? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7769709)

fuck off with HAND bullshit.

anyone who mods up HAND bullshit deserves to be metamodded to hell.

what does HAND mean other than "I will maintain my clique fantasy by excluding y00". l33t? HAND.

KDE is not to be ignored (5, Insightful)

Erioll (229536) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769631)

KDE is still one of the most-used desktop environments around. Ignoring KDE in favor of GNOME would be like only including VI and not Emacs (or Emacs and not VI), and forcing all users to use one.

This is a mistake if they don't include both.

Erioll

Re:KDE is not to be ignored (5, Insightful)

daeley (126313) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769655)

Not exactly the same thing, as including both of those doesn't require anywhere near the amount of effort as supporting two development kits...at least, that's the argument Perens seems to be making [userlinux.com] .

Re:KDE is not to be ignored (5, Insightful)

KarmaPolice (212543) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769776)

The problem isn't really supporting two platforms. Packages are being created anyway. The problem is that the UserLinux people wants companies to use it and the "selling" argument will be that is't ONE common platform that they can program their own applications for.

Imagine the resources for programming and testing for both KDE, Gnome and many more platforms. One programmer can only know so many platforms. The world sometimes is easier with fewer choises...

Re:KDE is not to be ignored (4, Funny)

mAIsE (548) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769686)

Yes but we all know VI is far superior to EMACS !!

--------------

There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those who don't

Re:KDE is not to be ignored (1)

NanoGator (522640) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769771)

"Yes but we all know VI is far superior to EMACS !!"

Okay guys, I'm really sorry for asking such a dumb question, but I'm not very deep in the Linux world. What is EMACS, and why are jokes like these commonly made about it?

Re:KDE is not to be ignored (4, Funny)

satanami69 (209636) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769826)

Emacs is an early attempt to mimic yacc. It has evolved, trapper keeper style, to include its own kernel. Far beyond the scope of the GNU/Hello World mail client, Emacs can easily be scripted so common tasks can be repeated.

Also a simple editor such as ee, or aee, can suffice in most cases, Emacs is able to live in a symbiotic relationship with the user. Using Emacs over Vi has been suggested as the start of the next Great war by future historians. Also, it will be resolved after Emacs opens a connection through the metaverse where Emacs includes :q!

here's a screenshot of emacs (4, Funny)

SweetAndSourJesus (555410) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769847)

emacs in action [arizona.edu]

Re:KDE is not to be ignored (5, Insightful)

Prowl (554277) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769712)

i disagree

UserLinux is about a stable, usable business desktop (AFAIK). it is *not* about choice. The are plenty of other distros that cater for choice.

Including both or more would dilute development efforts, not to mention confuse Harry Homeowner, who is only interested in writing docs, and playing MP3s.

This definitely a good thing.

Re:KDE is not to be ignored (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7769745)

UserLinux is about a stable, usable business desktop (AFAIK).

So why choose Gnome over KDE, which is more stable and more usable?</troll>

If it's stability we're after, I'd have thought something like Blackbox would be infinitely superior anyway...

This definitely a good thing.

Well done, you just identified yourself as a Gnome user.

Re:KDE is not to be ignored (1, Troll)

TrekCycling (468080) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769876)

Bingo. I may be biased as a Gnome user that appreciates that Gnome just works, doesn't crash (admit it, if you've used KDE or QT apps you've seen the crashes, I have) and is simple. It's a window manager, not a platform. Linux is the platform. The apps are what I use. I just want my desktop to manage files a little, let me organize some folders and otherwise just manage windows. Gnome does this well and keeps getting faster and better at it. Gnome 2.4 rocks. Not everyone wants all the options KDE provides. There are plenty of distros that offer both.

Re:KDE is not to be ignored (5, Insightful)

Coward the Anonymous (584745) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769713)

UserLinux is for corporate desktops, not home users. Corporate desktop users don't get choice, everything is set up and locked down by the admin. This gives the admin one less choice to make.

Re:KDE is not to be ignored (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7769821)

everything is set up and locked down by the admin

In which case KDE should be the only desktop shipped, as it has a framework for doing exactly that - locking down the desktop.
see http://webcvs.kde.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/kdelibs/k decore/README.kiosk?rev=HEAD [kde.org]

KDE is not to be ignored-Horse head (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7769834)

"...while Bruce Perens has posted a response."

and

"This is a mistake if they don't include both."

Pistols at dawn.

or
[Bugs Bunny]
"This means war!"

I know why (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7769632)

Now that KDE has added "accessibility", a bunch of cripples and retards are going to be using it.

I'm sure UserLinux doesn't want to be associated with that kind of end user.

UserLinux == Great Idea (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7769634)

Except the User part because there won't be any.

Why Gnome? (4, Insightful)

autopr0n (534291) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769638)

Isn't KDE a lot smoother and more consistent over all then Gnome? I mean Linus uses it. Especially for business apps, KDE seems like a more natural choice.

Re:Why Gnome? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7769658)

KDE is clunky and slow, even compared to the Windows XP interface (on my P3-500). Gnome too. GTK apps are always nice and quick though.

It's the license (3, Insightful)

ultrabot (200914) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769723)

Especially for business apps, KDE seems like a more natural choice.

On the contrary, KDE is worse for the business apps. It's all about the license difference b/w GTK+ and QT. Choosing KDE would practically have forced the companies that want to ship closed source software to buy a expen$ive license for Qt (if they want to have the uniform "look", of course).

Personally, I use KDE. That's because I'm not a business, and I use what works (and KDE works better than Gnome ATM). But I wouldn't build my future on it.

Re:It's the license (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7769763)

Choosing KDE would practically have forced the companies that want to ship closed source software to buy a expen$ive license for Qt (if they want to have the uniform "look", of course).

These would be the companies which currently buy expensive licenses for Windows and Microsoft's developer tools? The same companies that were scorning Linux completely until Red Hat started charging enterprise-level prices?

Free-as-in-beer doesn't impress big business. I don't think it's as critical an issue as you make out.

Re:It's the license (3, Interesting)

ultrabot (200914) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769879)

Free-as-in-beer doesn't impress big business. I don't think it's as critical an issue as you make out.

Yes it is. It may not matter for 1-4 licenses, but free scales a lot better for hundreds of licenses.

Plus, there is no license management. With free beer, there is no hassle.

Re:It's the license (2, Insightful)

rsidd (6328) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769832)

On the contrary, KDE is worse for the business apps. It's all about the license difference b/w GTK+ and QT. Choosing KDE would practically have forced the companies that want to ship closed source software to buy a expen$ive license for Qt (if they want to have the uniform "look", of course).

I'd have said just the opposite actually. Qt is not that expensive, and it makes money for TrollTech. If you want to prove to the business world that there's money to be made writing GPL software, Qt is a great example, so why not thrust it in front of the corporate types? And from all accounts I've seen, it really is the better, more cleanly designed toolkit. Ask the Opera people, who weren't embarrassed to pay for it.

Re:Why Gnome? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7769725)

And, as the KDE advocates note, KDE is a far more common default - among all distros, not only those aimed at new users.

Re:Why Gnome? (2, Insightful)

Hard_Code (49548) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769819)

Exactly...KDE seems much more seamless and integrated end to end which is exactly what you want the user experience to be for business users who don't care about flavors of their toolkit or how many bindings for sparklers you can hang off it. KDE seem leagues ahead of GNOME.

Commercial development requires payments. (4, Informative)

khasim (1285) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769852)

If you want to do commercial development with Qt, you have to pay a one time fee.

Bruce objected to that and is putting together a distribution that has NO payment requirements for commercial development.

That's his approach, that's his goal.

Whether he will succeed or not, only time will tell.

Probably a good call (4, Insightful)

SoIosoft (711513) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769644)

The inclusion of two desktop environments, no matter how good they might be, will be confusing to ordinary end users. There might be some argument for including KDE and leaving GNOME out, but I feel that GNOME is less CPU-intensive and the included applications are a little better. The best argument for KDE would be that it would make the transition from Windows easier because it is so similar. That shouldn't be an issue, though. Nobody worries about users switching from Windows to the Mac being confused. It's a good call.

For an end user... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7769744)

..., using a Mandrake 9.x distro, for example Open Office works as fine on their KDE interface as KOffice works on their Gnome interface.

Programs in the background, interface in the foreground. That is all that end-users care about, libaries should not matter, they are a background thing.

Absolute bullshit (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7769792)

[END USER] I want to use application X.

[COMPUTER] You cannot use application X, it would confuse you too much.

This is the kind of reasoning that causes 100% of the flaws in Mac OS X

KDE math (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7769645)

GNOME = luser KDE = user There's no way around it.

I am reminded of the PERL mantra (3, Insightful)

cluge (114877) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769650)

There is more than one way. Anyone that insists that there is only one way, and that is their way, is probably wrong. KDE has advatages over GNOME, and vice versa. Let the flame wars begin - err continue.

AngryPeopleRule [angrypeoplerule.com]

Re:I am reminded of the PERL mantra (2, Insightful)

frantzdb (22281) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769756)

I agree. There is more than one way to make a Linux distro. One such way is to include only one desktop environment.

the PERL mantra - on playing catch-up (3, Insightful)

thockin (514323) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769765)

The PERL mantra is CRAP. One of the desktop UI projects needs to concede, and they need to put their efforts together. KDE is good, but lacks some of what GNOME has. GNOME's recent offerings have been pretty screwed up, IMHO.

While competition is good, cannibalism isn't, and that is all the two projects do - cannibalize each other. Put the resources, people, time, brains TOGETHER. It's a hard decision to make, but they really need to do it, if either one wants to get better by the leaps and bounds we need.

The last few times I have dealt with new GNOME updates it gets WORSE AND WORSE. More bloat, more crap, less options, harder to figure out how to change things. There is nothing more frustrating that a feature you used to use all the time being taken away from you

Focus on cleanliness and efficiency. That doesn't mean that all the config options have to disappear (ahem, Metacity can bite my ass). It DOES mean that nautilus can't chew up 16 MB of memory per user just to SIT THERE.

Get it together guys, they're getting ahead of you further than you can catch up at this point.

Re:I am reminded of the PERL mantra (-1)

ringbarer (545020) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769850)

" There is more than one way. Anyone that insists that there is only one way, and that is their way, is probably wrong."

Which is why I use Windows.

too short? (-1, Offtopic)

edrugtrader (442064) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769659)

all the fat girls... get loose with it.

all the skinny girls let bruce perens hit it.

Releasing a distro without KDE... (-1, Flamebait)

secondsun (195377) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769660)

...is like going to war with France without the Germans.

Re:Releasing a distro without KDE... (1)

platypus (18156) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769794)

Releasing a distro without KDE ... is like going to war with France without the Germans.

Ok, flame me, but I found this funny. Btw. who the fuck could get flamebaited by that? People, these times are long gone.

Options are good. (1, Interesting)

ActionPlant (721843) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769661)

I don't primarily use KDE, but I still like the idea that should I want it, I can have it. I do use Gnome, but I like just knowing it's not my only option, even if I never get around to using KDE. Although it's not the end-all be-all (in my opinion), it would still be a mistake to not include it.

Damon,

Re:Options are good. (2, Insightful)

D-Cypell (446534) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769700)

Sometimes options are not good. Particually if you want to reach out to slightly less technical users.

Lets not forget that anyone that wants to use this distro with KDE should be able to compile and install it.

There are als many other distros that come with both.

Re:Options are good. (1)

ActionPlant (721843) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769741)

However, in a future distro I see no reason a person can't have the option to switch between them, much like logging out and then back in with Windows, which will load completely different settings for a different user. Yes, our two major shells in Linux do the same thing, but I feel doing a recompile on the fly via an option from within the gui isn't a far stretch. Could be interesting.

Re:Options are good. (1)

cant_get_a_good_nick (172131) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769827)

Options are good if you have specific needs that are served by the differentiation and you can make a careful analysis and pick the right one. But if you can't do this, you just sit there, try to make an educated guess, realize you have no clue, make a decision anyway, and then wonder whether you made the right decision.

For most users, they don't have any reason to choose one or the other.. They'll ask their friends, who'll tell them about licenses and C++ vs. C and programming models... none of which make any difference to end users. It will just confuse them and distract them from getting their work done.

This is just the desktop, not the apps. I'm sure they'll shit Qt libs. And I'm sure you could install KDE if you wanted too. THis is just the default.

Re:Options are good. (1)

ActionPlant (721843) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769864)

I wish there were another way, though. Perhaps just include it and (like we can do currently) have the user select during the install based on a couple of dumbed-down little write-ups on the pros and cons of each?

Reason why, KDE DOES rock, and it's friendly competition between programmers for the different shells that continues to promote improvement. If this releases without KDE that's a big incentive for GNOME programmers to rest a bit on their laurels (no offence to them whatsoever...I realize this is open-source and pretty much all volunteer anyway).

Damon,

Does that mean they worked for nothing? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7769667)

Well things like OS/2 and all the stuff I wrote in 6502 assembly is pretty much useless now. As a small consolation, maybe there's a graveyard for these things in an alternate dimension.

Here's an honest question. (0)

i_am_syco (694486) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769669)

What's with all this talk lately about linux distros and KDEs and such?

Re:Here's an honest question. (1)

Mr. Sketch (111112) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769707)

What's with all this talk lately about linux distros and KDEs and such?

Probably just because there hasn't been any good SCO news lately.

Misspelling in Peren's Letter (1)

Saint Stephen (19450) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769670)

I can't believe it: Perens left the "e" out of userlinux.com in the link to his own whitepaper on his own site!

Re:Misspelling in Peren's Letter (1)

Saganaga (167162) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769747)

And I can't believe you misspelled his name (it's Perens, not Peren, so the possesive should be Perens'.)

There. I'm done.

Ah yes, great. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7769680)

I thought linux was about choice. Guess some people have different ideas.

KDE is based on Qt (1, Flamebait)

jotaeleemeese (303437) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769696)

And Qt is made by Trolltech.

And Trolltech is part of the Canopy Group.

Which pulls SCO strings.

Do we need the threat of more lawsuits in the future?

The question is... (4, Interesting)

autopr0n (534291) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769753)

Why hasn't anyone made an OSS implementation of Qt? I don't see why it would be to hard to come up with a drop-in replacement, maybe even based on GTK, (though hopefully more low level).

Re:The question is... (5, Informative)

cduffy (652) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769777)

Why hasn't anyone made an OSS implementation of Qt?

It's GPLed right now, and thus is already OSS. (Now, because it's under the GPL and not the LGPL, *commercial* development with Qt requires a commercial license, and that's a big chunk of the reasoning on why I'm not putting in the time to learn it -- but it certainly is open source).

Re:The question is... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7769809)

Years ago, one was being worked on (called Harmony, I think) - but then Trolltech did the evil thing of re-releasing Qt under the GPL, which is apparently a fairly popular licence which even RMS approves of.

Re:The question is... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7769843)

There was a group working on it. They stopped once Trolltech released a GPL version of Qt. In fact Qt has been GPL for over four years now.

http://www.trolltech.com/newsroom/announcements/ 00 000043.html

BTW: You can not deny people buying stock. SCO owns a small share of Trolltech stock, however has no control. Intel owned RedHat stock, however no one ever said Intel owned RedHat. The parent->parent post is pretty misleading.

It's like me buying one share of Microsoft stock and then proclaiming I own Microsoft. I in fact do own Microsoft, however not enough to even get a Christmas card from them.

Can we put this myth to rest? (5, Informative)

Spy Hunter (317220) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769778)

Trolltech is an independent company, not controlled by Canopy. Canopy group owns 5.7% of TrollTech's shares, while Trolltech's employees and founders own 69.7%. This myth of Canopy controlling Trolltech is entirely untrue (but remarkably persistent, thanks to anti-KDE trolls). Read kdemyths.urbanlizard.com [urbanlizard.com] and be enlightened.

Re:KDE is based on Qt (1)

Mr.Ned (79679) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769861)

The Canopy Group is a minor investor in Trolltech. Trolltech is not a part of the Canopy Group anymore than Microsoft would be part of Mr.NedCorp if I were to invest in it.

Re:KDE is based on Qt (1)

Our Man In Redmond (63094) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769866)

Someone commented on Groklaw not too long ago that Canopy's stake in Trolltech was pretty small (<10%) and opined as how it would be really cool if Trolltech could buy that stake back as sort of an "up yours" to Canopy.

No, I don't know how much that is in real money.

If you really, truly think SCO is more evil than whatever they put in buttered popcorn to give it that addictive smell, you'll probably eschew Trolltech and Qt anyway. But I think the extent of Canopy's participation in Trolltech is a non-issue.

No more Trolltech Trolls.. (3, Informative)

Drathos (1092) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769870)

Just because the Canopy Group and SCO invested in Trolltech, doesn't mean that Trolltech is part of the Canopy Group.

Alltogether, Canopy Group owns a grand total of 5.7% of Trolltech. They have practically no say in the operations of Trolltech.

People really need to stop dragging Trolltech's name through the mud with this pointless argument.

(Note:: I am not a Trolltech/QT/KDE fanboy. In fact I don't use any desktop environment. My WMs of choice are Enlightenment and BlackBox.)

If one must be chosen (2, Insightful)

gid13 (620803) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769699)

Hasn't anyone proposed removing Gnome?

It seems to me (subjective experience, yadda yadda yadda) that KDE is less buggy, more feature-laden, more configurable, and with the new 3.2 betas even slightly faster than Gnome.

Does this have something to do with the QT developer license cost I've heard about? Is GTK devoid of such a cost?

Re:If one must be chosen (2, Informative)

happyfrogcow (708359) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769740)

as far as i know, the QT developer license is only if you want to use QT in non open sourced, commercial ways. however, i havn't read the actual licensing, only read "reviews" of it so you might want to read it yourself.

Re:If one must be chosen (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7769871)

Qt's got two licences - the first being the GPL, which most people use, is the good old make-it-GPL-and-you're-fine route. You can't distribute a closed-source program that uses Qt, however, unless you use the QPL, whereby you pay money to TrollTech and they give you the right to use Qt in your closed-source app, plus loads of documentation, developer support, etc.

If anything, it's a better situation than the GPL-only Linux kernel - if you want to write a binary-only driver for Linux, you can be on really shaky ground, and there's no option of a second, proprietary-friendly licence to go to.

I gather MySQL is dual-licensed in a similar way to Qt, and I haven't seen huge flame-wars about its licensing...

GTK is OSS (1)

autopr0n (534291) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769796)

In fact, I think it stands for the Gimp Toolkit and came out of the gimp project, although I could be wrong. The real question is, why hasn't anyone made an OSS implementation of the Qt API. Dosn't seem like it'd be that hard.

Quel suprise! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7769702)

Wow, Bruce Perens is a prick, and here I never knew! Glad this important story was posted.

Ground level comparison. (5, Interesting)

Murmer (96505) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769705)

Having used both, I have likes and dislikes about both of them - Gnome does look better, and "feels", whatever that means, like a more complete and professional product.

That said, KDE is faster. Much, much faster; On older hardware, this is a pronounced difference. Every time my old P2/233 goes bobbing for objects in the Corba barrel, it takes an awfully long time to come up for air.

If the UserLinux project is only meant to run on hardware made from this day forward, that's cool, I'd go with Gnome. But if not, I'd definitely include KDE - It's cruel to say so, but the choice between Gnome and KDE is, in my house, very much dependent on the choice between new or old hardware.

Bruce Perens' original response (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7769708)

Newsforge still has a copy of the response that Bruce Perens posted before replacing it with is on www.userlinux.com/GUI.html now..

Get it here [newsforge.com]

Don't dodge the issue (5, Informative)

div_2n (525075) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769711)

GNOME was chosen because it allows the development and distribution of proprietary applications WITHOUT purchasing a license from Trolltech.

It isn't about if one is better than the other. He doesn't touch that argument with a 10 foot pole.

Read BP's white paper [userlinux.com] for his wording on it.

One reason may be the cost. (1)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769717)

Not the cost of KDE, but what it costs to developed closed apps with QT. Selling companies on paying an additional 1300 USD for a dev license per dev can be a difficult thing to do.

You may not like it, but that is how things are sometimes done in the 'real' world.

Re:One reason may be the cost. (1)

Haeleth (414428) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769823)

Selling companies on paying an additional 1300 USD for a dev license per dev can be a difficult thing to do.

But - if we're talking about companies not currently using Linux - they're probably already paying at least that much for the proprietary development tools and libraries they use on Windows, Solaris, or whatever. On Linux they get a totally free compiler, choice of free IDEs, free libraries. They can afford commercial QT.

Besides, aren't these the same companies who are over-suspicious of the "free lunch" deal that Linux currently provides? I'd have thought that a $1300 license fee would be just the thing to convince them it's a serious product, and I'd rather it were Trolltech getting the money than SCO!

I agree with Bruce (2, Interesting)

BigBuckHunter (722855) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769719)

I have never fully understood why distros come with both GUI environments. I realize that there is a lot of great software that one will miss out on either way, but users want simplicity.
I view Bruce's approach as being better than what Redhat has historically delivered (Gnome with half-assed KDE support). I would rather have KDE left out than finding broken features and diminished functionality after the install.

Time to change the name (1, Redundant)

harlows_monkeys (106428) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769728)

Time to change the name to IrrelevantLinux. BlueCurve indeed makes KDE and GNOME look a lot like, but good user interface is about a lot more than just looking pretty. More people find KDE to be better.

A distro without KDE is not going to get very far.

Not that I really care.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7769729)

I user neither GNOME nor KDE, hell I don't even use Linux.

I run BSD's is console only, and use Windows for the desktop. But this is really stupid, I've tried both and KDE wins hands down.
I bet the people intended as the audience for this YALD (Yet Another Linux Distro) will laugh too.

And while I'm at it, I can't stand Brunce on his always so high horse and mostly ignorant and silly ideas. Why can't SANE people ever be put in charge of making decisions that effect others?

This actually isn't a bad idea... (5, Insightful)

drhlx (580655) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769732)

Sure, to your average ./ linux geek, not having the _choice_ of desktop environment is sacreligious, but in order to push linux into new markets, a unified, consistent GUI is one of the things needed. Support costs decrease. Documentation (user-level) can be written for a single interface. Users moving from one (UserLinux) system to another receive the same feedback, which reinforces their learning.

What linux _really_ needs (for the purpose of appeasing your everyday, business/home user) is to adopt the approach Apple took with MacOS X. It presents a single unified interface, well-designed apps, etc. but lets you add the rest yourself. It's powerful in the way that OS 9 wasn't. But because it's UNIX underneath, you know you can get in there and change it. You don't need to be an expert to do that - someone else will develop a little GUI wrapper to do it for you. But the fact is it's possible.

We've all known and loved this about Linux for years, but it's mass-market adoption is being stifled by lack of a unified interface. Aesthetics is something Apple learnt a long time ago. It counts.

The point of the various distributions is to target different audiences, to package things in different ways, to pursue different directions. If you don't like one particular distro, choose another. But we really need a distro that is consistent, and doesn't compromise on security (like Lindows). In fact, we need several. Let them fight it out. May the best distro win.

blackbox, fluxbox, etc (1)

0x12d3 (623370) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769735)

I'd personally be completely happy if they went with minimalist solutions to the various implementations. (ie gui, mail client, text editors, browser, etc). I guess this is a bit less feasible for business oreinted ends, but still... gnome? kde? Who tolerates the latency?!

Freedom of Choice (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7769748)

Is the freedom to create a Linux distribution with only one desktop.

Good Choice (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7769757)

Although it might not be a good choice to select Gnome over KDE, I agree with this move.

I don't think Linux will become widely accepted on the desktop until there is a standard for installations. The amount of software you include in your packages is also taken into effect when you need to support these products (or not have to support them). I think this is why certain packages (i.e. Debian) will include every package, rather than selecting which goes in. Most of the support is kind of fix-it-yourself, and providing all packages allows them to do anything or fix any problem right? This approach is great for Geeks with the do-it-all-yourself type attitude, but it doesn't work elsewhere. This also relates to having to choose which windows manager to use when installing the OS. This division among windows managers has caused and will cause alot of problems in the future when relating to interoperability between applications and elsewhere. I personally feel that every Linux distro should go with 1 windows manager, and not allow people to chose between them (unless this is a Linux distro that caters to the "expert" - but which distro doesnt claim this?).

BFD (2, Insightful)

Harmotech (664060) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769758)

Who cares? It's ONE distro out of how many? It's probably good in the long run if it makes transition from another OS that much easier. KDE needs to follow suit...how many distros would happily use them?

And in the end (2, Interesting)

Eberlin (570874) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769761)

There can be only one!

Why GNOME over KDE, I don't know. Then again, I'm sure we all have our personal biases. (I happen to like KDE).

A possible danger here would be the road to .NET -- and how heavily Novell/Ximian will be pursuing it. If this is the direction GNOME itself is going and MS suddenly pulls a patent-fit (released as open standards, blah blah...note SCO distributing their code under GPL doesn't shut them up).

Support for both would be great, if not needed, though. I like kuickshow too much to give it up. I know that's a trivial app, but put a more heavily-relied-upon app in its place. There are people who couldn't work without at least KDE app support.

If in the end, there can be only one, I hope it's a product of convergence, and not the demise of one environment (to be technical, the rest of the environments).

gnUserLinux ? (1)

rasjani (97395) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769767)

Quote from Perens:

I proposed gnUserLinux, but RMS didn't like it! He feels that having the GNU up front would signify that it's an FSF official project. UserGNULinux doesn't roll off of the tongue quite as easily.
Well, hell! and few others! That be the first from RMS! =))

UserLiGNUx (1)

SharpFang (651121) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769824)

UserLiGNUx. Sounds OK and with the right capitalisation

Re:gnUserLinux ? (1)

Haeleth (414428) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769846)

So presumably it's now to be called "the UserLinux distribution of the GNU/Linux operating system", a nice neat name to go with its primary application, "the OpenOffice.org office suite"...

Re:gnUserLinux ? (1)

jonathan_ingram (30440) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769873)

Interesting. If he wanted a more 'GNU' distribution, then he should choose KDE over Gnome, given that GTK+ is licenced under the (to RMS) substandard and deprecated LGPL, while Qt is licenced under the (to RMS) ideologically sound GPL.

KDE will always be available in UserLinux (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7769774)

KDE will always be available in UserLinux, because UserLinux will be a subset of Debian. Want KDE? It'll be just a few clicks (or an "apt-get install kde") away. Want to run just a particular KDE or QT application? No problem; the libraries you need will be installed automatically. This is Debian, folks.

The conflict here is about defaults. UserLinux will include and install Gnome by default, and the developer effort will be geared toward GTK. Why? Because GTK is royalty-free in all situations, unlike QT, and UserLinux is building a royalty-free development environment.

So what? (3, Insightful)

caudron (466327) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769787)

Seriously. So what? If you want to use KDE, use a different distro. This is a non-issue.

-Tom

Usability (i.e. the idiot interface) (5, Insightful)

AMystery (725537) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769799)

I've used linux for years, from back at redhat 4.2 I believe. I've also used a number of the GUIs and I have some pretty strong feelings about them. In every distribution that I've dealt with, Gnome just works. Sure, it has some bugs, but in general its a smoother user experience. I'm sure you can do everything in KDE, but that's if you want to spend hours configuring it. Gnome just works. I do like the power and options available in KDE, but if I was starting with linux, I wouldn't want that. In fact, when I migrate people to linux, they get Gnome. Once they learn the OS, then I might mention there are other GUIs, but for a migration or business oriented distro, go with the one that just works.

That said, I read the article *gasp* and it was about supporting the environments, not the relative qualities of the GUIs and I have to agree that its easier to standardize on one development environment.This is a good move for a new distro and helps to keep their costs down and quality up. I just hope that the fallout from the geeks doesn't kill them before they get going. I'd love another good Debian based distro

KDE is great, but too much is exposed. I don't need three text editors in a right click menu, I want one that just works, although I generally use vi and they never include that in the click menus:(

Am I missing something? (2, Insightful)

Whatanut (203397) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769804)

Is there are a reason KDE can't be used anyways? You'll just have to download it instead of it being distributed with the initial install.

If you like KDE... keeping using it. For the business world they get less complication and you still have choice.

Standards... (1)

mythosaz (572040) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769805)

I will be modded down for heresy, but...

Until there is *The One True Linux Desktop*, you're going to have trouble getting the mainstream to accept it. You saw successes with Redhat (ok, maybe a bad example now) because we knew that Redhat n+1 was going to have roughly the same desktop as Redhat n.

There is no -1 "I disagree"

Then don't name it UserLinux (5, Interesting)

Fefe (6964) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769807)

If Bruce Perens honestly wants this to be a Linux for business people (instead of the unwashed masses of normal users), he should not call it UserLinux but BusinessLinux or whatever.

I'm a user and I want KDE. Most people agree that KDE is more mature and robust than GNOME anyway, so from a business point of view it is obviously better suited. KDE also has more stability from other points of view, for example it doesn't change the default window manager for each major release, the groupware and the kiosk mode are very important as well. I'm not talking down on GNOME here, but KDE is more mature and all the major business wins Linux has had so far were with (and because of) KDE.

I think the maintainability argument is a fallacy. Admins already are completely unable to contain the complexities of different applications. Each major application and framework calls for its own class of admins. In large companies you have a Cisco admin for the networking infrastructure, you have an Oracle DBA, you have the Apache guy, you have the SuSE/RedHat/whatever admin, and the 5000 Windows reboot monkeys. Nobody expects all of this to go away if they switch to Linux. There will still be complexity. Deciding to standardize on GNOME will not make OpenOffice any less daunting to install and maintain in a multi-user environment. Or Mozilla. Or Apache.

And if we accept the argument, we would clearly choose the platform with the more robust administration interface, which clearly is KDE. kcontrol is integrated and pretty much all-encompassing, while GNOME is constantly shifting from CORBA over XML to a binary registry and back. GNOME has become so bad that they actually added a regedit style "config editor" and apparently really expect users to use it to configure applications. Hint: This is the kind of nightmare people want to get rid of when they switch from Windows to Linux.

Anyway, I don't see why we need to standardize on a GUI, and if we do, we standardize on KDE, of course, as it fulfils more of the requirements businesses have, hands down.

Re:Then don't name it UserLinux (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7769863)

Wrong. He is applying rule of economics and business to his decision. Businesses can develop and distribute proprietary applications in Gnome w/o paying any license fee! With KDE, they cannot! In order to develop/distribute proprietary software, they need to pay a $1300 license fee to TrollTech.

Which option is more business friendly?

Dumb (1, Flamebait)

swagr (244747) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769810)

Perens and his cohorts are applying the rules of communist economics to this projects requirements. How many of the end users they hope for are participating in this requirements and design phase?
Why even bother calling it USER Linx?

They should take a look at how a good project involves it's target users. http://www.intellij.net

so? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7769814)

BFD

who will use loserlinux anyway?

what will it provide that all the other don't, other than a single fascist dictator at the top?

I'd include a "softer wm'... (1)

huckda (398277) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769828)

and let gnome and kde be add ons that are not included in the distros..

Okay, so why GNOME, not KDE? (2, Interesting)

SharpFang (651121) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769867)

Not trying to troll or anything, I just want a reasonable answer to this one:

I heard a ton of arguments why ther should be only One. Okay, development, toolsets, all that crap.

So, if KDE IN and GNOME IN is not an option, they go with KDE OUT, GNOME IN.
Why not KDE IN, GNOME OUT?

How is GNOME better than KDE?

It's all very simple (1)

Pivot (4465) | more than 10 years ago | (#7769875)

Ask yourself; would Linux as a GPL'd kernel be as successfull, if it required the applications running with it either be GPL, or that the developer had to pay Linux $1000 up front for the rights to release applications for Linux under a different license?

Hey buttheads!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7769877)

this is user-linux's project they can build it however they see fit, and KDE can go jump in a friggin lake if they don't like it...

on some distros KDE runs great, other distros i think KDE sucks, just depends on what the developers of a particular distro want to do, you would not like it if i came up to you are started telling you what to do with your project- show user-linux the same respect!!!
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