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Black Holes No More -- Introducing the Gravastar

Cliff posted more than 10 years ago | from the yet-another-cosmic-theory dept.

Space 670

Mark Eymer observes: "From the Space.com article: 'Emil Mottola of the Los Alamos National Laboratory and Pawel Mazur of the University of South Carolina suggest that instead of a star collapsing into a pinpoint of space with virtually infinite gravity, its matter is transformed into a spherical void surrounded by "an extremely durable form of matter never before experienced on Earth."' While these objects may abound in the universe, they also say that our entire universe may reside within a giant gravastar." This new theory attempts to fill holes in the currently accepted concept of the "black hole".

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ah.... (5, Funny)

holzp (87423) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903455)

the /dev/null of the universe!

Re:ah.... (4, Funny)

Galaga88 (148206) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903512)

Even better, they say the entire universe may be inside one huge gravastar.

Which would mean the universe is already *in* /dev/null.

Re:ah.... (2, Insightful)

grasshoppa (657393) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903637)

Which would mean the universe is already *in* /dev/null.

I have no problems believing that.

Re:ah.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903654)

The universe is in the crapper...

Sounds about right!

Re:ah.... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903533)

Black Holes. What is it all about... is it good, or is it whack?

Re:ah.... (1)

Hogwash McFly (678207) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903575)

Oh so now the entire Universe runs on Linux now? If that's correct then I think the market share of Windows dropped by a couple of percent. :P

OT: Re: ah... (1)

Haeleth (414428) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903627)

Um... /dev/null is a standard Unix thing, not just Linux. Heck, even my Cygwin box (or GNU/Windows as RMS would doubtless call it) has a /dev/null.

Re:ah.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903643)

A friend told me that joke yesterday. I slapped him.

Obligatory goatse.cx link (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903457)

Here's your black hole [goatse.cx] right here.

Now that's out of the way.

~~~

Uhh Actually that looks like a red hole to me (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903521)

Are you colorblind my brother?

Re:Uhh Actually that looks like a red hole to me (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903615)

From a shorter distance it look black.

~~~

FP! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903458)

FP! Hehhehehhehehhe lyl hehehhehehhehe

FP? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903461)

FP Whho

First Post! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903464)

Click here! [goatse.cx]

Insightful? (1)

Hogwash McFly (678207) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903601)

A direct link to goatse.cx gets modded Insightful? Don't take the Black Hole thing too far, mods.

Re:First Post! (1)

liquidsin (398151) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903606)

Wow, a picture of the "void". Kinda funny to see a goatse.cx link actually being on topic! My hat tips to the mod who scored this one "+1, Insightful".

fp (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903466)

fp

where is the peer review? (1, Interesting)

Tirel (692085) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903467)

I can't find any papers from the said authors on the physics archive [lanl.gov] , so these two obviously aren't well known or respectable among the scientific community. A lack of peer review in a strata where peer review accounts of all fault-finding leads me to believe this articles credibility is the same as those of new-age magazines who which posting about the Bermuda triangle and the creation fabled
self-professed scientists.

Until some well-known scientist confirms this, I think I'll just believe the 'official' story about black holes.

Just my 2 dollars.

Re:where is the peer review? (0, Flamebait)

gazz (101967) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903503)

Sheep :P

MOD PARENT DOWN - GOATSE LINK (-1, Troll)

YoJaUta (67458) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903511)

Goatse link in sig, parent author is a well known troll!

YOU LYING TWAT, IT ISN'T... (-1)

(TK4)Dessimat0r (669989) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903546)

foad. Thanks.

Re:YOU LYING TWAT, IT ISN'T... (-1, Flamebait)

Ailuro (174135) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903638)

STFU newb, when he posted the warning there was a Goatse link in the sig.

Re:where is the peer review? (5, Informative)

Beardydog (716221) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903514)

An article about Grevestars showed up in Scientific American a few months back I remember...

It was an interesting article, but they seemed to be a ways off from anything solid...so to speak.

Re:where is the peer review? (3, Insightful)

W32.Klez.A (656478) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903527)

True, but a lot of people thought Einstein and Newton were crazy too, and they didn't exactly have many peers at first to verify and critique their information, as they were just cast off as silly just as you've done.

Everyone's gotta take chances, and just because they don't have a long dignified history of work doesn't mean their words are invalid from the get-go.

Re:where is the peer review? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903530)

And don't forget that the current peer review system protect those in the 'industry' for looking like idiots...

Re:where is the peer review? (5, Informative)

gandalf013 (586578) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903531)

FWIW, NASA ADS [harvard.edu] returns 22 abstracts [harvard.edu] .

Re:where is the peer review? (4, Informative)

bartash (93498) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903573)

That search engine at http://xxx.lanl.gov/find is hard to use isn't it?

But I found these [arxiv.org] papers for Emil Mottola and these [arxiv.org] for Pawel Mazur.

Re:where is the peer review? (2, Funny)

mekkab (133181) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903629)

Just my 2 dollars.

Inflations a bitch, ain't it?

Re:where is the peer review? (5, Insightful)

KingJoshi (615691) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903632)

I never did research to investigate the black hole theories, nor will I do research on this. I'll leave that to others. But new ideas tend to be a positive thing, even if they may seem outlandish at first. And what's with this "self-professed scientists" title? It's not as if "credible leaders" in a field haven't been wrong before. I look forward to others looking into this. When Slashdot posts about an article that hasn't been peer-reviewed because it's new, someone complains because it's too new? geesh. I'm sure we have some knowledge members among the Slashdot audience that can tell us more. Maybe Slashdot posting the article brings it to their attention and peer-review will occur sooner. Maybe it's not worth reviewing. We'll see.

Re:where is the peer review? (3, Interesting)

soapbox (695743) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903640)

Per Thomas Kuhn's theory on the structure of scientific revolutions, real changes in the way we understand science always start out as a crackpot theory. see the Reciprocal Systems website [reciprocalsystem.com] for more. My Uncle is an adherent of this theory, and he has some uncanny evidence for why it is applicable to real physics, large and small.

While conventional thinking won't get you put in a nuthouse, nor will it solve the dilemmas of physics. Even physicists say this.

Re:where is the peer review? (0, Troll)

jack1323 (301059) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903682)

I agree. According to this [utne.com] , this guy is a college drop-out.

There needs to be a new rule in society: If you can't graduate from college these days, you're not allowed to suggest scientific theories.

What about the aliens? (0, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903468)

Bet aliens wanting to visit our Gravastar will be forced to be fingerprinted and have their pictures taken.

Re:What about the aliens? (1)

JackJudge (679488) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903633)

You're assuming their flight will be cleared in the first place. After all, they're probably pacifists and the concept of "sky marshalls" would be very alien to them :)

Whoa (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903469)

Is it just me or is this article a little beyond my comprehension?

Re:Whoa (-1, Flamebait)

grub (11606) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903551)


It's you. This may be more suitable. [disney.com]

Durable Material (3, Funny)

ElDuque (267493) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903471)


But can they make a new non-stick pan surface out of it?

Re:Durable Material (3, Funny)

viking099 (70446) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903544)

Or, it could be truck [reallifecomics.com] !

Re:Durable Material (1)

daeley (126313) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903574)

Yes, but the food doesn't so much "not stick" as disappear from this universe. Depending on your cooking skills, this may or may not be a bad thing. :)

dig a hole, fill a hole (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903472)

: This new theory attempts to fill holes in the currently accepted concept of the "black hole".

Is that the first step of filling up the black holes themselves?

HERES A BLACK HOLE (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903473)

Click me [goatse.cx] and Enjoy!

That looks like a gaping red hole to me (1)

CreamOfWheat (593775) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903613)

like a Red Giant star actually

I am confused by the article (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903478)

Physicists have long struggled to account for the tremendous entropy, or information, that a black hole would harbor. Theory holds that a black hole should have a billion, billion times more entropy sometimes referred to as states, than the star it formed from.

"Where are all these zillions of states hiding in a black hole?" Mottola said in a recent article in New Scientist magazine. "It is quite literally incomprehensible."

Do you seriously doubt the existence of an infinite God when confronted with the silliness these "great minds" babble about?

Re:I am confused by the article (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903577)


Do you seriously doubt the existence of an infinite God when confronted with the silliness these "great minds" babble about?

Absolutely and without question. Religion is a security blanket for weak minds.

Re:I am confused by the article (1)

partytimejoe (704280) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903605)

"Where are all these zillions of states hiding in a black hole?" Mottola said in a recent article in New Scientist magazine. "It is quite literally incomprehensible."

Do you seriously doubt the existence of an infinite God when confronted with the silliness these "great minds" babble about?

Just the fact that your vastly non-infinite mind cannot grasp some of the most advanced theories in Cosmology does not mean that they are 'silly'. Nor does it prove the existance of a God, infinite or otherwise.

Just felt the need to inject a bit of logic and reason there.

Re:I am confused by the article (3, Insightful)

Steve Franklin (142698) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903674)

You can't conceive of "zillions of states hiding in a black hole" but you can facily throw us the concept of an infinite universe ruled by an infinite mystical entity not of that universe but having a one-to-one correspondence with that universe? I think I'll nominate you for the Miles Hayes Award for explaining the simple in terms of the complex.

Personally, I suspect that what we're looking at is the conservation of information--the indestructable info-quantum.

All well and good but (3, Funny)

ShieldWolf (20476) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903482)

Will it chase your ship around yelling out I hunger [sinistar.com] ? :P

Re:All well and good but (1)

American AC in Paris (230456) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903660)

No, but you still need to destroy the angry Red Planet... [classicgaming.com]

it's true (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903487)

after all, all of the bug reports submitted to Microsoft have to be stored somewhere

Re:it's true (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903561)

submitted to Microsoft

Hey, you mispelled Micro$oft.

Come on guys! (2, Funny)

phunhippy (86447) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903488)

Its only noon... now I have a headache :(

Black Holes? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903490)

So, does this make all of my Black Holes Pr0n obsolete?

Michael Crichton wrote about black holes (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903491)

Remember that wonderful novel Sphere? Terrible movie though. I wonder if the Timeline film will be any good.

I can't help myself (3, Funny)

revery (456516) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903492)

This new theory attempts to fill holes in the currently accepted concept of the "black hole".

Ha Ha Ha! Your puny theory will never escape from the irresistible gravitic pull of this horrible pun...

--

Was it the sheep climbing onto the altar, or the cattle lowing to be slain,
or the Son of God hanging dead and bloodied on a cross that told me this was a world condemned, but loved and bought with blood.

Warning (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903493)

Be carefull when clicking on those "picture of a black hole" links ;)

Stoner philosophy (3, Funny)

worst_name_ever (633374) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903494)

This sounds exactly like the sort of thing I used to hear when I was living in the dorm back in school:

"Dude... what if, like... our whole universe... is just one tiny atom... in the toenail of some giant dude?"

"Woah, dude."

Re:Stoner philosophy (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903545)

You must have gone to school with Keanu?

Re:Stoner philosophy (5, Funny)

Scrameustache (459504) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903568)

"Dude... what if, like... our whole universe... is just one tiny atom... in the toenail of some giant dude?"

"Woah, dude."


Man, you should write scripts for the Matrix!

Re:Stoner philosophy (1)

Alan (347) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903608)

I missed out on doing lots of drugs like that in college :(

Reminds me of Animal House (4, Funny)

lucabrasi999 (585141) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903506)

they also say that our entire universe may reside within a giant gravastar.

"So what you are saying is that an atom inside our fingernail..."

"That atom could contain a teeny, tiny universe."

"Woah!.................Can you sell me some pot?"

It's turtles all the way down! (3, Interesting)

Gothmolly (148874) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903508)

"While these objects may abound in the universe, they also say that our entire universe may reside within a giant gravastar." That statement makes no sense - its saying that everything that exists or can exist, exists inside something else. Where does THAT exist? This sounds a lot like the Skinner Constant, or Finagle's Fudge Factor. (the number in engineering, which when added to, subtracted from, multiplied or divided by, gives you the right answer).
+1 karma to anyone who gets the title of this post

Re:It's turtles all the way down! (1)

Robotech_Master (14247) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903547)

"...and still the universe extends to a place that never ends
Which is maybe just inside a little jar!"

--Yakko Warner, "Yakko's Universe," Animaniacs

Re:It's turtles all the way down! (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903558)

Title of the post comes from one of Feinman's books. God you must be such a geek to have read those. :-)

Feinman talks with an old lady who won't listen to anything he says, she is convinced that the earth really rests on the back of a giant turtle. When he asks what that rests on, she replies something like "Buddy, it's turtles all the way down."

-Tyler
tjw19@columbia.edu

Re:It's turtles all the way down! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903566)

Don't you mean, "+1 karma to the fastest person to put the phrase into google and see that it comes from a Stephen Hawking book?"

Re:It's turtles all the way down! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903567)

What is the turtle standing on?

You can't fool me, young man. It's turtles all the way down.

Re:It's turtles all the way down! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903587)

.... Terry Pratchett of course....

Recursivity (0, Insightful)

Adolf Hitroll (562418) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903510)

our entire universe may reside within a giant gravastar.

If this appear to be true, I then guess we could find universes in atomic particles.

Re:Recursivity (1)

lucabrasi999 (585141) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903600)

I then guess we could find universes in atomic particles

I found a universe at the bottom of my last glass of Jack Daniel's.

mmm... universes (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903518)

So then there may be other universes within gravastars, and if you scale back far enough perhaps these gravastars are equivalent to atoms, by which I mean, we're making up the matter in some other ultra superverse!!

Pun intended? (1)

rewt66 (738525) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903524)

"This new theory attempts to fill holes in the currently accepted concept..."

"Gravastar" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903525)

And it sounds better in Russian than "black hole"
I guess...

Looks like a joke (1)

Rik Sweeney (471717) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903532)

lets see how many people get sucked in.

Date? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903644)

Are we April 1st? Nope... I'm confused.

So the real question is.... (4, Interesting)

Alan (347) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903534)

So what's on the outside of this giant gravstar we're in? :)

Re:So the real question is.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903678)

A whole bunch of things. There's a pub that gives away beer, and a flying car that runs on water, for example. Dope is decriminalised, and you can buy a great big beautiful house on a week's salary.

It's really cool. You should go.

This theory sucks... (1)

trix_e (202696) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903535)

This new theory attempts to fill holes in the currently accepted concept of the "black hole".

but wouldn't any of these attempts just collapse into the singularity as well??

Then all you're left with is Vincent and Bob [jeffbots.com] ...

This figures (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903543)

The problem that I have always had with black holes and other things that the science establishment throws around (such as "dark matter") is that they have absolutely no Scriptural justification for their existence. Rather than look at the universe and decide that God made it for us, these people would rather come up with outlandish ideas that have only theoretical evidence and no practical or physical evidence. And now they are completely changing their tune. No big surprise there.

Re:This figures (1)

lucabrasi999 (585141) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903659)

OK, AC, I'll bite.

My problem with religious freaks is the ignore the obvious evidence that exists for theories like Evolution and they throw Creationism in our faces.

I have a greased up YHVH doll shoved up my ass! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903665)

If you were to know your french, which is obviously not the case, you would know that god means dildo. Since god is said to have made man in his image, it's not hard to understand why you, dear troll, are a dickhead.

Misplacing things... (2, Funny)

TWX (665546) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903552)

So does this explain where the SCO evidence went?

Re:Misplacing things... (1)

schatten (163083) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903652)

I was thinking of something similar, but more along the lines of "McBride is up to something with this void."

A black hole? (1)

OpCode42 (253084) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903554)

So, as I understand it, a black hole is a singularity, where the laws of physics and time itself do not add up and have no real meaning.

So my timesheet...

nice recursion gravastars in gravastars in ... (1)

palutz (728535) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903565)

While these objects may abound in the universe, they also say that our entire universe may reside within a giant gravastar. The people i work with are to be used as evidence, there skulls are also gravastars as nothing gets in or out

Re:nice recursion gravastars in gravastars in ... (1)

Mr Pippin (659094) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903667)

Unless they are management, in which case their policies and business plans can make it out. After all, they have no substance or basis in reality to begin with!

Bose-Einstein Condensate (2, Interesting)

Shadow2097 (561710) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903578)

I am not a physicist, but from my basic physics and chemistry classes in high school and college, I seem to remember that compressing any matter increases its temperature. Wouldn't the gravitational compression of trillions of tons of gas and dust cause a temperature of billions of degrees? It seems unlikely that a Bose-Einstein condensate would form in such an environment. Can someone more informed that I provide an explanation?

-Shadow

P-Branes (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903580)

Mottola and Mazur have not worked out all the details of how gravastars might form. Yet they say the objects solve a flaw in black hole theory.

Call us when you work out those little details.

"Where are all these zillions of states hiding in a black hole?" Mottola said in a recent article in New Scientist magazine. "It is quite literally incomprehensible."

As I recall from reading Hawking's universe in a nutshell, if you consider black holes as being made of p-branes, waves in p-branes could encode all the states even if black holes had high entropy.

Universe in a gravastar? (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903585)

That's not a new idea. Well, the "gravastar" part is, but I think the "universe in a black hole" thing has been around for quite awhile.

Basically, if you look at the density/matter distribution required to create a black hole, and extrap. outwards, it turns out that the density vs. size of the universe as a whole is really close to what you'd need to make a black hole.

Oh great! (5, Funny)

qazamotto (545021) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903588)

Now Disney is going to have to refilm "The Black Hole"! For some reason I think that "The Spherical Void" just will not be as much of a hit with the little ones.

Wrong! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903592)

It's held on the backs of four turtles.

"Introducing" the gravastar? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903611)

This idea was presented at a conference for the American Physical Society in 2002 and was on the news sites soon afterwards.

There is already a band named after it. It's old news.

matter not experienced on earth, but (0, Offtopic)

Tibor the Hun (143056) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903612)

"an extremely durable form of matter never before experienced on Earth."

Maybe, just maybe, there is some of that matter on Mars! Imagine how cool it would be if the little rover could grind the surface of that matter and send us pictures, since nobody on Earth has ever seen it!

Here's hoping...

No, cat doesn't have my fucking tounge (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903623)

This new theory attempts to fill holes in the currently accepted concept of the "black hole". enough talk of holes [goatse.cx]

Sounds similar to Lee Smilon's idea (2, Informative)

shaneb11716 (451351) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903628)

Lee Smolin has a great book on black holes as universes and applies evolutionary theory to universe creation. [amazon.com]
The Life of the Cosmos. Very good read.

-Shane

The Onion reported a similar thing some years ago. (3, Insightful)

Kaz Kylheku (1484) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903634)

The ``Whole Universe is One Huge Frickin Atom'' story.

Someone luckily stashed a PDF [gats-inc.com] of this (Copyright 1999 The Onion).

There you go.

Seven colors to choose from (4, Funny)

djupedal (584558) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903657)

its matter is transformed into a spherical void surrounded by "an extremely durable form of matter never before experienced on Earth."

Isle 3, womens's underwear. 5 for $2.00 - durable, breathable, washable, wearable.

Duplicate (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903663)

Not only is this article duplicate, but it even refers to an article dated 09:52 am ET
23 April 2002.

Bad News for Hawking? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903666)

"Cosmologist Stephen Hawking has made a number of high-profile wagers on future discoveries. In 1975, he bet Kip Thorne a subscription to Penthouse (the loser would get it mailed to his home) that a celestial mystery named Cygnus X-1 would turn out to be a black hole. [I'm pretty sure only Thorne wanted Penhouse and Hawking wanted a different periodical] It didn't. In 1991, he again lost to Kip Thorne, betting $140 and a T-shirt "embroidered with a suitable concessionary message" that a naked singularity could not exist." A Brief History of Betting on the Future [Wired] [wired.com]

When will they prove... (1)

w3weasel (656289) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903675)

When will they have empirical evidence that our entire existance is just Butterflies dream [rider.edu] ...
And that the butterfly in question is My Butterfly [msn.com]

Easily proven false (1)

Lane.exe (672783) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903676)

If this were true, then the gravastar would have to be ultra-cold, as the article said. Since the entirety of the univesre is a constant 3 Kelvin, all we'd have to do is look in the direction of the black hole/gravastar and see if there was a temperature drop in the area equivalent to what it would be for a large hunk of ultradense matter at absolute zero (hint: it's really really really goddamned cold). Failing to see that, by reductio, we can dismiss this hypothesis.

almost name of old video game (1)

ch-chuck (9622) | more than 10 years ago | (#7903681)

namely, this one [jmpc.com] , Gravitar.

Your mission: to travel to alien planets, wipe out enemy bunkers, gather fuel units, and make the solar system safe for you and future generations of space pioneers.

Inside the gravastar's shell... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7903683)

...the internal states are stored as half pairs of lost socks.
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