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RFID Casino Chips

michael posted more than 10 years ago | from the dealing-from-the-bottom-of-the-deck dept.

Privacy 271

scubacuda writes "Could casinos be the next Gillette or Wal-Mart? New Scientist and others report that casinos could soon start using RFID tags to spot counterfeits and thefts, and also to monitor the behaviour of gamblers. Embedded RFID tags should make the chips much harder to counterfeit, and placing tag readers at staff exits could cut down on theft by employees. (With companies like Infosys helping clients identify and plan pilot RFID projects, we'll no doubt be seeing more and more companies dabbling in this area. Those interested in reading objections to RFID use should check out the position paper issued by CASPIAN, EPIC, Privacy Rights Clearinghouse, Junkbusters, ACLU, Meyda Online, EFF, and PrivacyActivism.)"

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271 comments

Ouch for card counters... (3, Insightful)

cayenne8 (626475) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933060)

They can more easily monitor your swing of bet levels......

Re:Ouch for card counters... (4, Funny)

Mod Me God (686647) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933082)

Not when I get my RFID reader and read the tags on the cards in blackjack ;)

Re:Ouch for card counters... (1)

Psx29 (538840) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933164)

There are many casinos where card counting is legal, just go there instead.

Re:Ouch for card counters... (4, Informative)

goofballs (585077) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933238)

card counting is legal everywhere in the states. the casinos in nevada are allowed to not let you play if they suspect you're card counting, but it's not against the law. this has been tested in the courts.

Re:Ouch for card counters... (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7933240)

Card counting is always legal, at least in the U.S.

The difference in casinos is whether they have to let you play or not. In Vegas, they can ask you to leave at any time for any reason and charge you with trespassing if you come back.

In Atlantic City (as far as I remember -- its been awhile), they have to let you play. But they can instruct their dealers to do a lot of things to make your life as a counter quite miserable. Like only work very shallow into the shoe, for starters.

Re:Ouch for card counters... (4, Insightful)

cayenne8 (626475) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933241)

Card counting is ALWAYS legal, as long as there is no mechanical assistance...

:-)

But, most casinos don't allow you to play BJ there is they think you are a counter. I've never heard of a casino being 'advantage' player friendly. If they did, I can only guess they'd have the worst possible game set up...as far as dealer stands, payoffs...shuffle after each deal.

Re:Ouch for card counters... (1)

Chris Y Taylor (455585) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933166)

I'd be willing to put up with that if they would also track the cards so that I could be 100% certain the dealer wasn't dealing seconds.

Re:Ouch for card counters... (5, Insightful)

glorf (94990) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933359)

The article talks mainly about being able to identify the chips as being authentic. I think that installing the equipment at each betting spot on the table to read the different IDs, lookup the dollar value in a central database and do the math to figure out total bet would be a little much. It would take some serious hardware to do real-time tracking of every chip in play. Considering that dealers, pit-bosses and the eye in the sky already are fairly good at catching counters (who can't take the casino for too much if they don't want to get banned), I don't think the ROI would be there for such a massive system.

Having a few readers in the cage to verify authenticity before giving out cash in exchange, would be a much more efficient use of RFID.

Re:Ouch for card counters... (3, Interesting)

cayenne8 (626475) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933443)

Couldn't you just take the chips home..and microwave them? I can't see them requiring the RFID working to prove they were their chips...

Something that can fail isn't the customers fault...if it was proven otherwise to be genuine.

Re:Ouch for card counters... (3, Insightful)

Pave Low (566880) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933399)

I believe there's already technology that can constantly monitor bettings, though I'm not sure how widely its implemented. The eye in the sky can see that without RFID.

Anyways, spotting a lone card counter really isn't that hard anyways. To be a really effective counter, your betting levels needs to swing wildely from 10-1 if you're using a hi-lo count, and pit bosses can see it a mile away.

It's team play that is really hard for casinos to spot, like when a spotter can call other people in when a shoe is hot, and they can bet huge.

Well.. (1)

Neophytus (642863) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933063)

Sure, RFID the chips for fraud and theft purposes, but don't link me to the damn things. There's enough trickery goes on behind the scenes already.

Re:Well.. (2, Informative)

goofballs (585077) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933093)

they'd have to add a *lot* more infrastructure to link you to the chips- eveytime you lost a bet, they'd need to checkin your chips, when you won, they'd need to checkout chips to you, etc. imagine that at someplace like a craps table. and of course, you'd need to sign up first just to be able to bet. ain't gonna happen.

Re:Well.. (1)

Oliver Wendell Jones (158103) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933152)

You can sign up now before you bet. You don't have to, but then you won't get rated or earn any comps, either.

Re:Well.. (1)

goofballs (585077) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933209)

yes, you *can* sign up, and they try to make a mental record of your bets (unless your playing the machines, which gets auto tracked), but the vast majority of bettors aren't in the player's clubs, and the casinos likely aren't going to force you to join a club before they'll take your money. =) and this doesn't even address the fiasco of trying to track everyone's chips at busy tables.

fp (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7933071)

fp!

This actually seems like a good use of RFID (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7933075)

You're in their casino, using their chips. It's not like they'll be tracking you with their chips at the grocery store. Why would anyone even take the chips out of the casino anyway?

Re:This actually seems like a good use of RFID (1)

cb8100 (682693) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933115)

Good point. Cash your chips and leave. And it's not like the casino isn't already watching your with the umpteen million cameras in the ceiling.

Re:This actually seems like a good use of RFID (5, Insightful)

introverted (675306) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933136)

Why would anyone even take the chips out of the casino anyway?

I doubt they care too much if you take the chips out of the casino. After all, chips that go away don't have to be converted back into cash -- it's just that much extra profit.

What they don't want is for you to walk out the door with a stack of $1 chips and bring them back made to look like $100 chips. Presumably the RFID would also make it easier for them to detect fake chips that had never been in any casino before.

Re:This actually seems like a good use of RFID (1)

cayenne8 (626475) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933266)

Well, some people use casinos to launder money...they might get a little edgy with people walking in/out with thousands/millions of dollars in chips....

Re:This actually seems like a good use of RFID (1)

velo_mike (666386) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933288)

I doubt they care too much if you take the chips out of the casino. After all, chips that go away don't have to be converted back into cash -- it's just that much extra profit

Sort of, but thanks to the nightmare of "accounting for a gaming industry" it's actually more profitable to just hoover the money out of them - it's much less headache that way.

Re:This actually seems like a good use of RFID (1)

iminplaya (723125) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933202)

"Why would anyone even take the chips out of the casino anyway?"

Don't know. Some casinos used to let you use chips from other casinos.

Re:This actually seems like a good use of RFID (3, Insightful)

cayenne8 (626475) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933355)

Well, if you cash out $10K or more at a time...you have to fill out forms for the IRS/US Gov....they really like to track things like that.

So, say you have a really good night...you cash out $9999, walk out with the rest...cash it out in small doses over time so you stay under the $10K radar. That way, all cash.....hard to track that.

Re:This actually seems like a good use of RFID (3, Insightful)

OECD (639690) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933277)

It's not like they'll be tracking you with their chips at the grocery store.

No, they'll be tracking you at the tables. "Comps" are bestowed based on how much money you wager. If the chips are associated with you when they're sold, then they can track where and when you wagered it and comp you accordingly.

wont stem employee theft. (4, Interesting)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933077)

So they now have to stop in the kitchen to wrap that stack of $100.00 chips in tinfoil before they leave...

rfid is not a theft prevention solution for small items.

Re:wont stem employee theft. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7933095)

What they should do is require all the employees to enter through a "decontamination" room where they are stripped and body-cavity searched. Have fun trying to steal chips when Leroy has his arm elbow deep in your crannies.

Re:wont stem employee theft. (3, Funny)

dustmote (572761) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933192)

Something tells me that their hiring bonuses would cost more than employee theft is currently costing them, if they tried that little stunt. :) Still, it would make for some interesting want ads... "Do you want a fast-paced exciting job with great benefits? Do you not object to daily probing of your rectum? Have we got a job for you!!!" (I think they already have ads like this in Nevada...)

Re:wont stem employee theft. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7933263)

"Do you want a fast-paced exciting job with great benefits? Do you not object to daily probing of your rectum? Have we got a job for you!!!" (I think they already have ads like this in Nevada...)

I was going to say that 50% of Nevada's work force already works under those conditions, but hey, you win.

Re:wont stem employee theft. (1)

pyros (61399) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933326)

Still, it would make for some interesting want ads... "Do you want a fast-paced exciting job with great benefits? Do you not object to daily probing of your rectum? Have we got a job for you!!!" (I think they already have ads like this in Nevada...)

Indeed they do have such ads, I believe they're produced by the Velvet Jones Ad Agency.

Re:wont stem employee theft. (1)

velo_mike (666386) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933235)

What they should do is require all the employees to enter through a "decontamination" room

The one I worked for was even "better", every square inch under multiangle video, well, except for the bathrooms of course. I worked in the back office and rarely made it into the actual casino but every nose scratch and testical itch made me self conscious... Maybe you get used to it.

Re:wont stem employee theft. (1)

ftzdomino (555670) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933297)

UPS requires its employees to go through a metal detector when leaving but not entering the premises. This is to reduce theft.

Re:wont stem employee theft. (1)

fishbowl (7759) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933479)

There are stories about the counting rooms at the Sands when Howard Hughes owned it, that you really did get strip searched going in or out of there. That's from an account by Jimmy Fratianno.

Tony Soprano ain't got nuttin on Jimmy the Weasel.

fp (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7933079)

fp

I'll let them RFID me... (4, Funny)

exp(pi*sqrt(163)) (613870) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933085)

...as long as they let me RFID their cards...

Re:I'll let them RFID me... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7933126)

They aren't RFID'ing *you*, asspacker.

Stop breathing, you're wasting our air.

I wonder what took them so long... (2, Interesting)

aquarian (134728) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933096)

The real news here is that it took them so long! I sort of assumed they were doing this kind of thing already -- the fraud prevention stuff goes without saying, but I'm surprised they haven't been analyzing playing patterns with this technology too.

Re:I wonder what took them so long... (1)

fishbowl (7759) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933367)

They analyze playing patterns with a positive feedback mechanism. It's called "comps." You voluntarily expose your play in return for perks from the hotel. Anything from free food to free meals to the show tickets that "nobody" gets.
I just got 4th row tickets to see Elton John that way. Last season I got race tickets for pit row. All basically just for losing a couple hundred bucks playing craps :-)

Oh no,! They'll.. wait.. what does this add? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7933105)

As soon as you walk into a casino you're already under the eye of man many cameras monitoring the place. What will this add? I mean Casinos are already Big Brother incarnate, All RFID chips will mean is that you can't cheat.

Link me to them... (5, Insightful)

tgd (2822) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933111)

This is a great use for RFID tags. Watch all the chips, watch where the move, and track which ones I have.

I love to go to the casino and play card games like Blackjack or more importantly Craps. Accurate tracking of chips tagged to me would mean two things: accurate comping and the ability to have a technical solution to ensuring payouts are correct.

Those of you who have played craps at a busy table will know what I mean -- the accuracy of your payouts when you win is always in the hands of the "dealer" working your half of the table. I've been payed wrong many times, sometimes in my favor, sometimes not. Sometimes money comes in from bets I forgot I had on the table, sometimes I wonder if I got missed on a payout.

If this means that questioning a missed payout can be more accurate or means at a minimum the casino can see in aggregate when they have someone working the table who consistently makes payout errors, more power to them.

This isn't a privacy issue. If you think you have one spec of anonymity or privacy in a casino, you're nuckin futs.

Re:Link me to them... (1)

cb8100 (682693) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933143)

I wish I'd saved some of my moderator points...this is the most intelligent post I've seen on Slashdot in quite a while.

Re:Link me to them... (2, Interesting)

garcia (6573) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933203)

I think it is more to catch cheaters (placing late bets and stacking high value chips under the others after the hands are played) and more importantly watch card counters and their betting habbits.

Re:Link me to them... (1)

cayenne8 (626475) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933318)

When I'm playing craps...I know exactly how much I'm supposed to be paid. If they want to overpay me, that's fine, but, I'll call them on it everytime if they try to short me on what they owe me.

You always have to watch out for yourself, especially as a busy craps table...

Re:Link me to them... (5, Interesting)

fishbowl (7759) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933320)

It shows that you really do play, thanks for posting tgd.

People whose gambling experience consists of losing a roll of nickles in a slot machine, don't get it: You don't really want anonymity. You want the casino to know you're there, that you're playing, etc. You want to play in tourneys. You want comps. You want them to know you played, win or lose. If you're not picking up comps, you're missing half the strategy.

You don't want anonymity, you want them to notice you and say "Hello mister TGF, can I get you anything?"

Re:Link me to them... (3, Interesting)

RobertB-DC (622190) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933325)

This isn't a privacy issue. If you think you have one spec of anonymity or privacy in a casino, you're nuckin futs.

Excellent point that sums up the whole thing. After all, the entire point of a casino is to prey on peoples' willing suspension of disbelief.

How can anyone who walks in and puts their cash on the table think that the casino companies [lasvegassun.com] aren't going to fleece them from the moment they enter? That those ridiculously overdone venues with their flashing neon lights [allvegasreservations.com] just built themselves out of the Nevada desert [greenworks.tv]?

On the other side of the roulette wheel, you have people who *do* think they can beat the house... the people who buy lottery tickets [txlottery.org] at home in blissful ignorance of the laws of mathematics.

Neither of these groups is going to care about RFID. One group knows that they're entering a fantasy world [tvland.com], and the other wouldn't believe you if you told them [rottentomatoes.com].

Re:Link me to them... (2, Interesting)

mike_mgo (589966) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933342)

I doubt the chips would be tagged to individual betters. As another poster mentioned, everytime you won or lost a bet the indivivual chips would have to be logged onto and off of your comp card.

The best that could be hoped for is to maybe see a flow of chips. What I mean is for example: maybe they see that poker players prefer to play craps and not blackjack while they wait for a poker table to open up. So then the casino could decide to shift some craps tables over near the poker room.

I just don't see how this could help with missed payouts or monitoring bet size or things like that unless the chips were "checked in and out" to individuals as bets were won or lost. And I can't see casinos implementing something like this because it would slow the games down (and would slow down who quickly the casino would be winning money).

So other than to prevent stealing and counterfeiting of chips I'm hard pressed to see too many other uses for this technology in a casino, either benefical or harmful to gamblers.

Wow (4, Funny)

jjoyce (4103) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933116)

This really changes the scrupulous image that the casinos had going for them.

It's a private business. (3, Insightful)

Ophidian P. Jones (466787) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933120)

As such, they are free to do whatever they like to stem losses, gain advantage over customers, etc.

If you don't like it, you can go to another casino that doesn't use RFID chips. Ain't America grand?

Re:It's a private business. (1)

fishbowl (7759) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933255)



"As such, they are free to do whatever they like to stem losses, gain advantage over customers, etc."

But they are NOT free to do whatever they like. The business is heavily regulated by the State, especially if you're talking about Nevada. RFID chips are A-Ok, I'm sure, but they are hardly free to do "whatever" they like.

Private property (2, Interesting)

El (94934) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933121)

The chips are the private property of the Casino... don't they have a right to do anything they please with them? Granted, they should post a notice on the doors saying "Warning, chips protected by RFID", but if having your chips tracked bothers you, simply don't gamble there. RFID itself is not the problem; using fraud or coercion to trick or force people into being tracked against their will would be a problem.

Re:Private property (0)

GetPFunky (309463) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933249)

Would you stop to look at the sign posted behind the plant by the door or are you already looking for the waitress for a drink?

Simple solution... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7933128)

Just don't gamble. :-)

Re:Simple solution... (1)

kfg (145172) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933199)

For every complex problem there is a simple solution that. . .

Well, actually this one works like a charm, don't it?

KFG

Ouch for shitty dealers (1)

kcornia (152859) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933129)

Come up on a streak as a dealer where you're paying out through the nose, Guido the pit boss will have you take the day off...

Re:Ouch for shitty dealers (1)

velo_mike (666386) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933336)

Come up on a streak as a dealer where you're paying out through the nose, Guido the pit boss will have you take the day off...

Hell, that was trackable way before computers, let alone RFID tags...

Unscrupulous employee's workaround: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7933133)

Wrap the chips in RF-blocking metal foil.

More power to 'em (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7933135)

It's finally happened. The SlashThink phenomenon of "RFID is bad" has officially deteriorated into irrelevancy. This time, we're apparently supposed to think that RFID in casinos has something to do with our rights. It doesn't, and shouldn't. Nobody goes into a casino against their will, and nobody should be surprised that casinos exist for the sole purpose of tracking and taking money. For casinos to *not* use RFID to their advantage would be stupid and irresponsible.

Re:More power to 'em (1)

DrEldarion (114072) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933485)

Also, if anyone goes into a casino expecting privacy, there's something very, very wrong in their head. Casinos are probably the LEAST private places on earth.

That's too stupid (-1)

UltraSkuzzi (682384) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933137)

How is this going to make them harder to counterfit? Just bring a RFID reader to your casino of choice, figure out what ID addresses the chips use, buy a bag of RFIDs, and volva, counterfit chips.

Now can I have a Hoagie with those chips?

~UltraSkuzzi

Re:That's too stupid (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7933170)

and volva,

did you mean voila?

Re:That's too stupid (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7933472)

At least he didn't say "vulva".

Re:That's too stupid (1)

Kenja (541830) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933231)

So your saying that having to do a bunch more stuff to coutnerfit the chips isn't making it harder?

Re:That's too stupid (1)

The One KEA (707661) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933312)

Ah, but if you get caught, then the casinos will undoubtedly try to bring the DMCA into this, especially if the IDs are encrypted somehow.

Re:That's too stupid (3, Interesting)

Texas Rose on Lava L (712928) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933385)

They'll almost certainly assign a unique ID to each chip. So, if you turn in a bunch of chips that all have the same id number, it would be like going into the bank and depositing $1000 in twenties all of which have identical serial numbers.

If, as you seem to suggest, you compile a list of valid ID numbers, they can still get you because they could store data on where the chip is located. If the computer tells the cashier that half the chips you're turning in are supposed to be in the vault, you're busted.

Good (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7933145)

This sounds like a good use to me. Casino chips are easy to fake, can have high trade in value, and are very easy to sneak around. They're not supposed to leave the casino. You receive them from the casino, and trade them back in to the casino. No privacy concerns. It can prevent fraud. Sounds good to me.

Casinos (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7933154)

This casino thing: is it good, or is it whack?

Yes, privacy in a casino is highly sought (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7933179)

(Posting anonymously under fear of karma loss from that knee gently jerking back and forth in the Slashdot community. "Ahhhh! He's not agreeing with my anti-RFID stance! Heretic! Mod him down!")

How does this even remotely relate to "your rights"? Casino chips are the equivalent of "disney cash" in theme parks, IE under normal circumstances they are only used within the casino itself. Preventing loss would make the casino more money, and they might even use that to raise your pay tables when you're gaming.

The articles mention monitoring gamblers, but come on... you're in a casino! Your movements are tracked by a hundred cameras from the time you walk in to the time you walk out. Casino employees on the floor are designed to monitor your movement and habits and either 1) ask you to leave or 2) give you a free buffet coupon, depending on what you are doing. You have no privacy whatsoever and very little anonymosity in a casino. Sometimes that works out to your advantage.

Yes, there are bad uses for RFID. I don't see this as being one of them. Next thing you know people will be crying out because a warehouse wants to use RFID on crates for inventory control.

Oh, wait...

Great idea, needs help (1)

Scalli0n (631648) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933182)

Great idea - but how will they change the data on the tag (i.e. owner of the chip) in-game when someone wins those chips?

You have to have a quick, efficient way of transferring ownership of a chip if you're going to track successfully.

That's it then (2, Funny)

burgburgburg (574866) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933196)

Craps in Louie's garage from now on.

No more Wayne Newton. No more free drinks (except a swig from that bottle of Thunderbird that Louie always has lying around). And not even a remotely comparable level of hookers.

I'm going to go cry now.

Hilarious (4, Insightful)

Pave Low (566880) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933197)

All this crowing about privacy in a private establishment that has cameras covering every square inch of the property, that use computer databases and face-scanning technology to track counters and scammers, that have security everywhere because millions of dollars are passed around everyday.

And also watched by the government gaming commissions closely, lest their gambling license get taken away or worse.

And you're worried about fucking RFID technology in their chips?

Casinos are one of the few places you should absolutely stay away if you are so paranoid like that.

Tracking card counting teams (1)

pixelgeek (676892) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933208)

This will also help in tracking profressional card counting teams as they frequently carry large numbers of chips.

As well, if you can modify the ID in teh tags from time to time you could also "stale date" chips to stop pro-counters from storing chips for later use in a casino.

This also helps track who is alundering chips by cashing them for teams as well

Re:Tracking card counting teams (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7933314)

Tracking yes, expiration no. Down on the strip, chips are practically interchangeable with cash. I think you would have a lot of non-gamblers (e.g. strippers) very upset if you routinely expired your chips.

Surveillance is what casinos are made of. Interference is bad for business, though.

Casinos will love this! (3, Interesting)

Coryoth (254751) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933215)

This most likely will happen.

I used to work doing data visualisation for casinos - nice pretty visualisations showing slot machine usage. It was a huge hit with the casinos that used it. Most casinos use customer cards you see - you earn bonus points for awards if you put your card in the reader of the slot machine while you play. That allows the the casino to track your slot machine spending. More importantly it allows you to create visualisations of slot activity broken down by demographics (of course they collect a few personal details when they assign you your awards card...) so that they can better direct promotions, reorganise the slots on the floor (knowing where to place a bank of new slot machines can be worth a few million dollars!) etc.

The big problem was that while you could track turnover volume on the gaming tables, you just couldn't track the movement of players very well - there was just no information on that. With this they can have you swipe your awards card when you collect your chips, then watch those chips disperse about the tables. More importantly they can track the ebb and flow - movement vectors for the chips about the floor - that can be very useful information.

This will be a huge boon to the casino industry, who are always lookign for that new way to fleece a few more dollars of the statistically ignorant.

Jedidiah.

Take out (1)

Deanasc (201050) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933222)

More importantly, they can monitor locals who leave the casino with a lot of chips that they plan on cashing in over time to avoid paying taxes on that one big hit.

Re:Take out (1)

WebGangsta (717475) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933393)

if you have "one big hit" in a casino, the suits show up and take your SSN information. This is for hand-pays of over $1200 at the slots (as opposed to payouts that come directly from the machine).

I don't think that they care how many chips you cash in at one time (from a tax perspective), but for some reason the number $10,000 sticks out in my mind.

Missouri laws (2, Interesting)

happyfrogcow (708359) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933226)

It is illegal to "pass chips" at casinos in Missouri (ie, Kansas City "boats" as they are called). Presumably to track how much you bet. They also do macro-monitoring (if you call RFID tags micromonitoring) of chips. They fill a card out with your name and some other info when you first sit down at a table, after you give them your casino card, which is a credit card like card. this card also tracks your spending/winning and keeps track of "compensation" "awards" called "comps" by regulars i think.

RFID tags won't be much different. Who cares really?

RFIDs in cows! (1)

UnderScan (470605) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933227)

RFIDs in cows & sheep. [kvr-vst.com] I wonder if this and helps with disease control.
I count sheep for a living!

Well actually I am a computer programmer, but the other day I found myself in the middle of a portuguese field counting 596 sheep. I work for the agricultural business, and my latest project involves sheep and cattle with RFID tags in their bellies. The system I work with reads signals from an antenna that detects when the animals pass.

Quite a change from my previous job where I was making stock trading systems for a bank.

Casinos are already zero-privacy zones anyway (1)

Ars-Fartsica (166957) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933244)

What privacy are you attempting to salvage in a casino? Modern operations are among the most observed environments anywhere. As I tell my wife, this is the last place you are likely to get succesfully pickpocketed.

Suck if the RFID broke on your $1000 chip... (1, Insightful)

TheBeck (613920) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933254)

"Sorry sir this is not our chip, I going to have to confencate it."

Re:Suck if the RFID broke on your $1000 chip... (1)

happyfrogcow (708359) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933381)

very interesting thought, actually. they've probably used heavier strong-arm tactics in the past if movies like "Casino" are even 2% representative of truth.

however if it's not their chip, they have no right to confiscate it. if they do try to confiscate it, i'd have them call authorities (police, and not the RIAA "police"), file a police report acusing me of some crime and let the police take the chip as evidence of some crime they are acusing me of.

i'm sure the chip would have been conveniently lost by this point though.

Hacking Las Vegas (1)

scubacuda (411898) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933267)

Think that these RFID tags could help bust the next group of people who try to outsmart Vegas [wired.com]?

Re:Hacking Las Vegas (1)

The One KEA (707661) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933422)

What do you want to bet that they've already managed to figure out a way around any algorithm implemented by the house that relies on these chips? I remember reading that article; those guys are very good at what they do. I doubt these RFID chips will slow them down at all.

IMO not like Gillette or Wal-Mart. (4, Interesting)

pherris (314792) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933283)

Casino chips are generally meant to stay in the casino while Gillette or Wal-Mart sell items that are meant to leave the store. In theory Wally World could embed a RFID in all the shoes they sell and then profit from the data gained by tracking you walking around their stores or places that would like to sell your RFID movement data. I don't see the same problem with casino chips. A business (or casino) has the right to watch you while you are on their property. I'll give them that but tracking me past that is unacceptable.

RFIDs can be used for good. My Ford Focus ZTW has a RFID chip on the key. If the correct ID isn't there the car won't (and shouldn't atleast) start. Adding extra keys and programming them is a simple task too.

IMO this shouldn't raise the same concern that the Wal-Mart problem does, which could be a real nightmare.

Just another way to track your play (2, Interesting)

WebGangsta (717475) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933329)

Casinos are already tracking your play. Being able to track an individual chip enhances their information flow.

Those gamblers smart enough to play with a players card (slot club) so that they can earn comps and get a slight percentage higher in returns know that they're being tracked. Of course, it's easier to do so at the slot machines where the computers can determine your exact coin-in and convert that to a specific number of points to throw into your club account.

At the tables, the casinos still track an individual's play via the pit bosses. While it's now a fairly automated/computerized instant process, it used to be done all on paper and entered into a system later. Regardless, pit bosses would still evaluate what your average bet was, determine the approximate number of hands per hour that you were playing, and then give you a rating. I don't foresee this process changing, as this allows the casinos to use a bit of fudge factor to favor some guests more if they're tipping, friendly, and happy versus the mean grouchy players.

What other benefits can the casino do by tracking individual chips? What about being able to monitor how a chip moves from game to game? Will it allow casinos to cut down the number of pit bosses? (probably not, for other reasons such as security) Are more chips moving from the blackjack tables to the pai gow poker tables? Would this affect gaming decisions that the casino makes regarding the blackjack rules, so it keeps players at the table longer? How about making the whole betting process more automated by being able to verify the total amount of money in a stack of chips? And, it's one more way to prevent cheaters from late-posting bets on the roulette table.

As others have already said: casinos are one place where you can expect to be watched no matter where you go or what you do. You already sacrifice some amount of privacy just by entering a casino in the first place.

Ah, the party line: (4, Insightful)

Mike Hawk (687615) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933364)

File-sharing: Sure there are illegitimate uses for the technology, but there are a few legit uses. DON'T BAN IT.

RFID: Sure there are a few legit uses for the technology, but there are illegitimate uses. BAN IT!

Casino's are instances of organized crime (1)

TyrranzzX (617713) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933366)

They work with probability in order to take your money, inotherwords, all games in a casino are in favor of the house winning as far as probability is conserned. Some people creat countermeasures and exploit the games and win millions from the casino's, and this is the reason why if you win too much too often or in any way show you're a little too lucky, you'll get banned from all casino's in las vegas and thrown onto their blacklist.

So, am I suprised they'd use RFID? No, I'm frankly suprised they're still in buisness and people haven't smarted up.

Tin Foil (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7933368)

Wrap the casino chip/s ( RFID ) in tin foil ( aluminum foil, and they're invisible to the reader.

This is creepy (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7933375)

The thought the casino might actually be able to track what I bet is too creepy for words. What will they do next? Film all the betters? It might just get that bad some day.

"Your Rights"? (2, Insightful)

gkuz (706134) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933395)

What rights do you have in a modern casino, exactly, other than the right to have them take your money from you? Cameras everywhere, those "bonus cards" or whatever they're called, plain-clothes security staff everywhere, your every move is watched fourteen different ways.

I manage to avoid the surveillance problem and keep all my money by the simple expedient of not entering their establishment.

GOOD for them!!! (3, Insightful)

swordgeek (112599) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933403)

OK, they're using RFID tags in their own property to at the very worst, track your behaviour while on their property.

They're NOT putting these in items you buy, they're NOT using them to track you out the door, and they DO have a very real need to prevent counterfeits. There's increased security for them, and no invasion of privacy for their customers.

Where's the problem here? Geez, between this and the "forged colour mars photos," it MUST be a slow news day.

Oh, wait--both of these were posted by Michael. Interesting...

aut0tr0ll is teh sp0kE!? (-1)

Jack Froidalbungle (730156) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933404)

Hello master.

sid=92215
formkey=Yspow9PDVJ

This is a joint venture that will be mutually advantageous to both parties involved.

HEY SLASHDOT (-1, Offtopic)

TrippTDF (513419) | more than 10 years ago | (#7933478)

I JUST GOT LAID OFF. Company is going under. Anyone hiring in the NYC area? (Yes, this post is TOTALY offtopic... please, be that jerk that mods me down)
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