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O'Reilly Interview with the Plone Founders

michael posted more than 10 years ago | from the plone-arrangers dept.

Programming 124

Alexander Limi writes "Just in time for some light weekend reading, O'Reilly's OSDir.com has published a byte-sized interview with the two founders of Plone. This is a nice follow-up to the earlier discussion on Slashdot, and covers a lot of the unanswered questions people directed to us earlier as the surprise winners of the O'Reilly COMDEX competition."

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O'Reilly (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012374)

I love that guy. You're entering a no spin zone! Unlike Slashdot!

Re:O'Reilly (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012512)

Somebody modded this up? WTF? Put down the pipe willya. Informative my ass

Michael is a horrible editor who should be fired: (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012375)

Michael is a horrible editor who should be fired: Why? Why fire one of the most active editors on slashdot?

Although they claim this is a news site, michael openly admits [slashdot.org] his extreme bias and his affinity towards slanting the facts to fit his predetermined notions.

michael was hired in the middle of hijacking the www.censorware.org [sethf.com] website in a very immature, unethical, and corrupt manner.

michael will frequently censor entire threads down to -1 [slashdot.org] , simply because he doesn't agree with it.

Even worse, sometimes michael (or some other slashdot editors) will mod a thread [kuro5hin.org] down to -1 [slashdot.org] , and revoke mod point priveledges if anything, *anything* in that thread is modded up.

Of course, this is just a partial list. michael's unprofessionalism, hypocrisy, and immaturity are well known to most long term slashdotters. It's amazing that despite this, and despite everyone's complaints to him and CmdrTaco, he has yet to change. This should not continue. michael should be fired now.

can they really "revoke mod point priveledges"? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012383)

i have not been able to moderate in quite some time and was wondering what was up. is it possible that my moderating priveledges have been removed?

Re:can they really "revoke mod point priveledges"? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012395)

yes.
if you moderate "wrong" comments, the editors will flag you as never being able to moderate again.

If you get modded down too many times, you will not be able to post at anything except -1, even if you have karma: excellent.

Re:can they really "revoke mod point priveledges"? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012444)

If you get modded down too many times, you will not be able to post at anything except -1, even if you have karma: excellent.

I've never heard of that. I've seen trolls get their karma back up and they were able to post at +1 again. I know it's extremely rare since it's easier to just dump the account and start over, since users with terrible karma can only post twice a day.

Re:can they really "revoke mod point priveledges"? (-1)

timecop (16217) | more than 10 years ago | (#8012504)

my front page says this:

but I still post at -1.

Welcome back timecop (16217)
[ Info | Journal | Messages | Friends | Fans | Foes | Freaks ]

This is your User Info page. There are thousands more, but this one is yours. You most likely are not so interested in yourself, and probably would be more interested in the Preferences links you see up top there, where you can customize Slashdot, change your password, or just click pretty widgets to kill time.

(No journal entries.)
[ timecop's Journal | Write in Journal | Delete/Edit Entries | Edit Preferences | Friend's Journals ]

timecop (16217)
timecop
http://pepper.idge.net/gnaa/
Ka rma: Excellent

Re:can they really "revoke mod point priveledges"? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012412)

Yes, you have been $rtbled. $rtbl is Slash speak for "Real Time Black List". You can cap your karma and still be unable to moderate. Welcome to the club. I'd love to see the comment next to my user page, but only editors can read it. It's kinda like "The Permanant Record" the teachers warned you about in grade school, except of cours, you can just dump your Slashdot account, get a new one, and start all over.

Re:can they really "revoke mod point priveledges"? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012582)

Don't expect /. to be bug-free.
If your account seems to be screwed up, I'd recommend you just dump it and create another one. Don't waste your time and energy trying to get it fixed.

Re:Michael is a horrible editor who should be fire (-1, Offtopic)

dubdays (410710) | more than 10 years ago | (#8012450)

Just what in the hell does this have to do with this article? Plone just happens to be one of the very best content management systems of the open source world. You install it, and it just works...simple as that. You can even install in on Windoze, and it still works great.

Re:Michael is a horrible editor who should be fire (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012484)

Why don't you follow the links? You'd never want to browse slashdot again after you read Michael's doings.

Re:Michael is a horrible editor who should be fire (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012457)

Seth?
Is that you?

Re:Michael is a horrible editor who should be fire (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012470)

Every now and then the editors will pick a comment that is offtopic, inflamatory, and critical of the editorial staff (this one is a prime example) and $rtbl everyone who mods it up. This is cruel, unfair, and presumably very effective.

Guess what... slashdot is THEIR site! If you want to change the system grab a copy of slashcode (or scoop, or nuke, or ...) and register your own domain. I did. The site started to get trolled and crapflooded almost as soon as it got reasonably popular, and I eventually came to the conclusion that slashdot is doing a pretty fair job overall.

(Posted anonymously since I modded this down, and felt that I should let you all know why.)

Re:Michael is a horrible editor who should be fire (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012527)

STFU, FortKnox

Re:Michael is a horrible editor who should be fire (-1, Insightful)

miu (626917) | more than 10 years ago | (#8012563)

Every now and then the editors will pick a comment that is offtopic, inflamatory, and critical of the editorial staff (this one is a prime example) and $rtbl everyone who mods it up. This is cruel, unfair, and presumably very effective.

I'm not sure how effective it is to take away mod privs forever. I changed accounts a couple times because of I lost an email addresses or lost mod privs, but when this account lost mod privs I decided I didn't care enough about moderating to create a new one. I don't meta-mod anymore and I don't browse slashdot as often as I used to, the site is not nearly as interesting to me now. Who knows, that might just be the point of $rtbl.

I realize that Slashdot is their site, but ignoring or blacklisting anyone who complains (or mods up someone who complains) removes the only thing that a web news board has to offer. The editors have made the decision that some users are too much trouble to keep, they are a large site and can afford to make those sorts of decisions, but I think they make the site that much less interesting when the majority of moderators share the views of the editors.

Re:Michael is a horrible editor who should be fire (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8013052)

I don't browse slashdot as often as I used to, the site is not nearly as interesting to me now. Who knows, that might just be the point of $rtbl.

Actually, this is the point of Michael Sims.

-1, Insightful (was Re: micheal sucks) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8013284)

What do I win?

blah (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012376)

fp!

yes! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012381)

8th post! ?????

FUCK YOU COMMUNIST LUNIX COCKSUCKERS! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012382)

Sex is messy (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012538)

Eww... I've never been able to have sex because it's so messy and disgusting.

All that saliva and other bodily fluids and the disgusting smell of human flesh.

Re:Sex is messy (-1, Offtopic)

jalet (36114) | more than 10 years ago | (#8012600)

... and the disgusting smell of human flesh.

Are you French too ?

Re:Sex is messy (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012609)

Unscented clean human flesh smells disgusting.

Important Stuff! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012385)

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Re:Important Stuff! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012463)

# Impotent Stiff: Please try to keep pants on.
# Try to touch other people's penises instead of your own.
# Lick other people's rims before pissing in your own mouth.
# Use a clear subject that describes what you are about to do.
# Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments are encouraged by our pro-homosexual moderators
# If you want replies to your comments brought to you, consider the consequences of CmdrTaco visiting your house and foot-fisting your son, your father, your grandfather, you and your canary.

# Impotent Stiff: Please try to keep pants on.
# Try to touch other people's penises instead of your own.
# Lick other people's rims before pissing in your own mouth.
# Use a clear subject that describes what you are about to do.
# Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments are encouraged by our pro-homosexual moderators
# If you want replies to your comments brought to you, consider the consequences of CmdrTaco visiting your house and foot-fisting your son, your father, your grandfather, you and your canary.

# Impotent Stiff: Please try to keep pants on.
# Try to touch other people's penises instead of your own.
# Lick other people's rims before pissing in your own mouth.
# Use a clear subject that describes what you are about to do.
# Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments are encouraged by our pro-homosexual moderators
# If you want replies to your comments brought to you, consider the consequences of CmdrTaco visiting your house and foot-fisting your son, your father, your grandfather, you and your canary.

I am going to sue these people. (4, Funny)

Knight55 (742458) | more than 10 years ago | (#8012389)

This word sounds like Phone, I am representing my client thomas edison and taking a 100% commision for you trampling all over his IP. My dad from the SCO conned me into doing this.

Re:I am going to sue these people. (5, Informative)

martyn s (444964) | more than 10 years ago | (#8012607)

Alexander Graham Bell.

Re:I am going to sue these people. (0, Offtopic)

martyn s (444964) | more than 10 years ago | (#8012716)

How could this be INSIGHTFUL??? NOTHING on SLASHDOT is insightful. Mod parent down.

Not Bell. (1)

marcello_dl (667940) | more than 10 years ago | (#8013077)


Antonio Meucci.

Bell didn't invent the telephone, US rules [guardian.co.uk]

Re:Not Bell. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8013095)

Unfortunately most Americans are stupid and ignorant and can't be bothered with historical facts. They were taught in their state-funded public schools that Bell invented it, so damned if that isn't the truth! ALL HAIL BUSH!

Bell. (0, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8013235)

Biographer's memo [archive.org]

Judge's Ruling in Bell vs. Meucci court case [archive.org]

Bell and Meucci [archive.org]

"Contrary to the implications in HR 269, the courts have looked into Meucci's claims extensively and were very unequivocal in their findings. Meucci was a defendant in American Bell Telephone Co. v. Globe Telephone Co. and others. (The court's findings, reported in 31 Fed. Rep. 729, are attached verbatim.)

The judge was scathing in his criticism of Meucci's claims and his behavior, and concluded that Meucci was deliberately involved in attempts to defraud investors.

The question of whether Bell was the true inventor of the telephone is perhaps the single most litigated fact in U.S. history, and the Bell patents were defended in some 600 cases. Bell never lost a case. HR 269 directly contradicts findings of courts in New York, Massachusetts, Louisiana, Ohio, Maryland, and numerous others states. (See among others American Bell Telephone Co. v. Dolbear, 15 Fed. Rep. 448; American Bell Telephone Co. v. Spencer, 8 Fed. Rep. 509, and American Bell Telephone Co. v. Molecular Telephone, 32 Fed. Rep. 214.)

Re:I am going to sue these people. (0, Offtopic)

Spoing (152917) | more than 10 years ago | (#8013195)

    1. This word sounds like Phone, I am representing my client thomas edison and taking a 100% commision for you trampling all over his IP. My dad from the SCO conned me into doing this.

    Alexander Graham Bell.

Shhhh! You don't want *him* to be sued too, do you?

Re:I am going to sue these people. (2, Funny)

BlueGecko (109058) | more than 10 years ago | (#8013955)

Yeah, Bell may have made the telephone, but, dammit, if Darl can sue people for using Linux, then Edison should be able to sue people for using the telephone!

Re:I am going to sue these people. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012850)

Hi, I'm representing George Lucas and we're gonna sue their asses off because it sounds like 'Clone' - as in 'Clone Wars'.

We'll also sue you because it 'phone' is a registered trademark of E.T. and George's mate Steve has a lot to say about that. We won the SGI Indy box debacle, now ILM (Industrial Litigation Magic) is coming after you...

Oh and Darl... your name contains proprietary phonetics from the word 'Darth', but we're not telling you which bit. Oh yeah, $699 please...

Re:I am going to sue these people. (2, Funny)

paranoidsim (239426) | more than 10 years ago | (#8012957)

I too read Plone as phone. Consequently, the headline to me read, "O'Reilly Interview with the Phone Flounders". I got a laugh.

A bit telling (5, Insightful)

Saven Marek (739395) | more than 10 years ago | (#8012390)

This says a lot about good documentation and decent ease of use. I've seen many perfectly intelligent people come up against the brick wall of Zope's usability, and sit there scratching their heads going "wtf?". Luckily zope IS very powerful, otherwise it'd never end up being used.

While it's testament to the skills of the plone team that now there's a solution, and indeed that's the OSS way - if a solution is needed someone will write it - the years that zope's existed WITHOUT some kind of help it desperately needed is telling.

Re:A bit telling (4, Interesting)

Malcontent (40834) | more than 10 years ago | (#8012454)

While I agree that plone is better documented then zope I disagree that it's "easy".

Zope is just confounding. Plone makes it easier to get some things done. But sooner or later you are going to have to create a template or a script and then you'll be scratching your head and saying "wtf".

When I was first using plone it would take me hours to find where some text on the screen was being produced or where to go to change it. I am still perplexed about where the actions for the user bar are for example. And of course sooner or later everybody will get a visit from the "spammish aquisition".

I am waiting to see what zope3 and plone 2 are going to be like. I hope they make it easier for mere mortals to use them.

Re:A bit telling (1)

zzendpad (84506) | more than 10 years ago | (#8012534)

i hear things like this about zope all the time, i guess this is why i've been hard pressed to try it out. (completely aside from the fact that something about the name 'zope' just bugs me. 'plone' too, for that matter.)

so i'm left confused, what exactly is supposed to be made easier by this? it sure seems like a possibly good idea gone wrong.

Re:A bit telling (1, Insightful)

jalet (36114) | more than 10 years ago | (#8012560)

Perhaps you could... try it.

Re:A bit telling (1)

zzendpad (84506) | more than 10 years ago | (#8012592)

my point is, why would i want to try it when i hear so much that's bad about it... confusing, poorly documented, etc, and the only thing i hear in its defense is just to try using it and see for myself?

Re:A bit telling (2, Informative)

jalet (36114) | more than 10 years ago | (#8012615)

I agree that beginning to use Zope without any documentation at hand is a bit confusing (to say the least). But really you should be able to setup and use Plone to create a basic working website with publishing workflow, membership, themes, i18n, etc... within minutes, and without having to type any line of code.
Then of course to go further, you have to read some doc, but just like with all powerful software.

Plone is self documented (4, Informative)

axxackall (579006) | more than 10 years ago | (#8012577)

While I agree that plone is better documented then zope I disagree that it's "easy".

Plone is still in a deep lack of being documented. For example "Plone for web-designers" is till missed. Many API details I still have to get from the source code itself.

Also, one of the best Plone's documentation is a set of already existing and still being actively developed Plone applications.

But in general Plone still keeps guiding app developers, and thus leaves them more chances for future interoperability.

I wish that one of issue collectors/trackers in Plone will stabilize. Currently I use CollectorNG, which can already beat Bugzilla. I am not sure what PloneCollector developers want to achive by completely rewriting CollectorNG. As for official Zope/Plone issue collectors - they are kind of primitive.

Another wish: Zope and Plone sites will have forums with functionality of CMBoard, which I think is beating PHPBB already.

Re:Plone is self documented (2, Informative)

kalistra (34343) | more than 10 years ago | (#8015299)

The single most significant improvement of PloneCollectorNG over CollectorNG, IMO, is that the Plone version lets you define your issue schema dynamically, through the web, using a very simple interface.

Also, because PCNG is built using Archetypes, the hooks for TTW schema editing have been backported to the Archetypes project, allowing for simplified development of TTW schema editing for ANY Archetypes based pieces of web content.

Plone 2, Archetypes (5, Informative)

supton (90168) | more than 10 years ago | (#8012639)

I think things are getting better - much better, much faster. Soon-to-be-released Plone 2.0 and Archetypes are contributing to this - the learning curve for all aspects of Plone is getting flattened.

Zope has a "Z-shaped learning curve" -- or so goes the saying; this is becuase Zope (well, Zope 2) has a deep tree of class inheritance - a "deeply object oriented" system (to borrow a phrase from Jon Udell, not sure if that's his intended meaning). When someone tells you to "read the source" -- that's usually becuase Python is remakably easy to read -- but you still you end up with a task that's fairly involved and somewhat academic (not to discount this - once you get it it is quite rewarding).

What the CMF and Plone do is put a "wide-not-deep" framework on top of the Zope app server to abstract most of that tedious, academic learning curve for serious developers. The CMF hard-codes a really simple MVC-like design-pattern for best practices for component-oriented development, where lightweight components interact (global "tools" like search/catalog, workflow, etc and content objects in folders/containers (the model) - and UI/automation skin code (view/controller)). Each component is lighter-weight and pluggable (with defined interfaces and unit-tests), and CMF, Plone, and unrelated Zope 3 development are working towards not just pluggable components, but user/admin configurable components. The Plone 2 control panels are a good start towards making this more human. The ease-of-development and deployment story is getting better. The UI is also more configurable in Plone 2 via CSS.

Getting better by the minute: Archetypes [plone.org] is the secret weapon for Plone's future success; Archetypes makes schema-based development for content items, along with relationships among content items, not just easily possible, but much less tedious. It's architecture, in many ways (though it is still maturing [sourceforge.net] ), is superior to the same concepts in WinFS in M$ Longhorn. Archetypes will make development of content types easier to learn and develop day-to-day, whether you as a developer prefer to live in Vi (or Emacs), UML modelling tools, or a web-based schema editors. Simple, usable, documented examples for Archetypes development in Plone are popping up every day. Developing global CMF tools (singleton services/utilities for all objects in the site) has always been trivially easy, but underdocumented. Plone 2 is making the UI easier to customize, and I expect that forthcoming books [zopezen.org] and improved documentation [zopezen.org] on Plone 2 will make this straightforward.

Keep in mind, the Plone/Zope/Python stack is much less complicated and easier to learn than equivalent technology stacks in Java app servers (and less messy than inline web apps in PHP/ASPX/etc). And seriously, if you have to say WTF, say it on #plone on freenode or the plone-users [sourceforge.net] list - there's a high likelyhood that someone will have an answer to just that question... ;)

Mod Parent Up, Please (1)

billstewart (78916) | more than 10 years ago | (#8012656)

That's a nice review - thanks!

Re:Plone 2, Archetypes (2, Insightful)

Malcontent (40834) | more than 10 years ago | (#8014471)

My biggest wish for plone and zope is a more productive working environment. I really miss my filesystem tools like grep. The find button does not work great at all and takes too long.

I keep thinking it would be great if there was a cvs like tool where you could check out the subtree to your hard disk and work on it with your favorite editor and then check it back in.

If not that then an eclipse or a jedit plug in would be awsome.

Re:Plone 2, Archetypes (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8014907)

Synchronizing to the filesystem is built into Zope 3. It's just a shame that Zope 3 isn't finished yet. Someone should backport fssync from Zope 3 to Zope 2, or to Plone, then you'll have what you need.

VI IS A MANLY EDITOR (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012489)

vi puts hair on your chest and makes women cream themselves. If you don't use vi, you are a homosexual. Except if you use emacs, then you're practically a pedophile. Only Michael Jackson and R. Kelly use emacs. vim is acceptable but you should know this makes you bi-curious.

Re:A bit telling (3, Interesting)

the_rev_matt (239420) | more than 10 years ago | (#8013281)

I've been using Zope for 4 years now, and I still don't get this view that Zope is inscrutable. I have been trying to work with Plone for over a year now and it's damn near impossible to create your own product for it.

While Zope documentation can be kindly described as minimalist, Plone documentation simply doesn't exist and what little there is is 100% wrong. Hell, I've had some of the plone developers send me solutions to problems and their solutions don't work (usually because they've skipped 2-3 major steps in their directions, assuming that I know as much about their undocumented product as they do).

I think Plone is a great project, and it will likely become an integral part of Zope, if you want to do anything other than slap a different skin on it you are SOL. I'm particularly bothered by the fact that they override many of the default behaviors of Zope/CMF and there is NO way around it so it is not possible to port a Zope/CMF product to Plone without completely rewriting from scratch.

straw person... (2, Informative)

supton (90168) | more than 10 years ago | (#8014792)

There are not "default" behaviors of Zope/CMF - CMF is a framework - NOT NOT NOT a product. CMFDefault is just an example application. Plone is a CMS application on top of the framework an app server product. It is not "impossible" to port of CMF product (i.e. a product designed to work with CMFDefault) to Plone - there are very few differences. I do this all the time. I'd like to point out that CMFdefault is rarely used for any serious (paying) work or production products by anyone (not Zope corp, not independent CMF developers and consultants); Plone on the other hand codifies best practices learned from real installs.

Also, use archetypes - it is easy to create your own content type products with Archetypes. This isn't that hard, and the documentation is getting better.

Buffy was his fav show (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012396)

buffy used to be my fav show on tv but now its starting to suck cause of all
the niggers. there used to be no niggers on buffy but now the producers moved
it to college n now we got niggers all over the place like in the initiaive n
stuff. yea i know buffy had a nigger vampire on it last year but fate staked
that nigger scum n killed his gay nigger ass! but now we got this nigger forest
n the producers make him look all kewl n stuff when he isn't! well theres still
hope cause the producers could the nigger off pretty easily. i also got to
admit that buffy has far less niggers than some other shows that i watch. i
mean voyager used to be cool but then it got so many niggers. there are too
many niggers on voyager. star trek is really starting to suck n become star
drek. we used to have kewl white characers like kirk n pikard n wesley crusher
(he's my fav!) on star trek, but now we have stupid gay niggers like tuvoc n
elena on voyager! i think the producers should kill those nigger fags n bring
back some pure white blood like wesley and lieutenant carey. oh well, its
wishful thinking, since the producers are such nigger lovers. at least voyager
still has some kewl characters like janeway and naomi wildman n neelix. voyager
is still better than that fuckin gay deep space nine show with the nigger
captain and his nigger annoyin-as-hell son. i read some buffy spoilers though n
it looks like my fav characters zander n jiles r getting more screen time, so
thats kewl, so im not going to quit watching buffy like im going to quit
watching voyager. but u know i heard that kes is coming back to voyager n is
going to kill that nigger bitch elana so im going to watch to see that. but
after that im gone

Wait a minute (0)

aynrandfan (687181) | more than 10 years ago | (#8012397)

byte-sized

You misspelled . . . oh, wait . . . he he

He used to like Law and Order (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012399)

there r too many niggers on law & order. i used to watch law & order in the
good old days. yeah i know they had a nigger lawyer in the first few seasons
but that was ok cause he did nothing anyway n he was a servant for my fav
character stone. then they added that nigger bitch but that was ok too cause
she was only a lieutenant n she had almost no screen time. but now this season
ive stopped watching law & order cause they added a nigger detective which
really sucks cause now there r too niggers on the show n they both have more
screen time than my current fav character lenny! so anyway until they get rid
of the niggers im boycotting the show. too bad the producers cater to all the
niggers n nigger lovers out there. usually the show is on target when it shows
that niggers r mostly murders n rapists. but now its starting to slip. it's
just like wut happened on buffy.
buffy used to be my fav show on tv but now its starting to suck cause of all
the niggers. there used to be no niggers on buffy but now the producers moved
it to college n now we got niggers all over the place like in the initiaive n
stuff. yea i know buffy had a nigger vampire on it last year but fate staked
that nigger scum n killed his gay nigger ass! but now we got this nigger forest
n the producers make him look all kewl n stuff when he isn't! well theres still
hope cause the producers could the nigger off pretty easily. i also got to
admit that buffy has far less niggers than some other shows that i watch. i
mean voyager used to be cool but then it got so many niggers. there are too
many niggers on voyager. star trek is really starting to suck n become star
drek. we used to have kewl white characers like kirk n pikard n wesley crusher
(he's my fav!) on star trek, but now we have stupid gay niggers like tuvoc n
elena on voyager! i think the producers should kill those nigger fags n bring
back some pure white blood like wesley and lieutenant carey. oh well, its
wishful thinking, since the producers are such nigger lovers. at least voyager
still has some kewl characters like janeway and naomi wildman n neelix. voyager
is still better than that fuckin gay deep space nine show with the nigger
captain and his nigger annoyin-as-hell son. i read some buffy spoilers though n
it looks like my fav characters zander n jiles r getting more screen time, so
thats kewl, so im not going to quit watching buffy like im going to quit
watching voyager. but u know i heard that kes is coming back to voyager n is
going to kill that nigger bitch elana so im going to watch to see that. but
after that im gone just like im gone from law & order. oh well at least law &
order svu is still going strong. even though they made that nigger bitch a
regular she does absolutely nothing n is almost never seen so its still ok.
also my fav character munch from homicide is on the show as well as capt.
cragen who was my second fav chracter on law & order during the first few
seasons so ill keep watching. but if they get rid of munch n cragan n add more
niggers, im gone from that too. i doubt thatll happen though.

Size does matter. (5, Funny)

cgranade (702534) | more than 10 years ago | (#8012403)

Problem is, a "byte-sized" article would be one-half of a Unicode character, or shorter than all but two words in the English language. Not probably a constructive article.

Re:Size does matter. (1)

Crypto Gnome (651401) | more than 10 years ago | (#8012453)

Actually the description is a reference to BYTE Magazine [byte.com] , so in actual fact the article is relatively voluminous.

Anyhow, even if they *did* mean 8 binary digits, if they printed them with a HUGE font size, then the article could be quite large indeed.

Re:Size does matter. (0, Redundant)

Guido del Confuso (80037) | more than 10 years ago | (#8012465)

Y'know, I was gonna make that joke too when I first saw the "byte-sized" in the article. Then I noticed that there were already 20 comments posted, and I was willing to bet someone else had beaten me to it.

It's pretty sad what a bunch of geeks we all are. :-)

I QUEEF IN YOUR GENERAL DIRECTION (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012404)

I hereby announce my entry into the scriptbot's guild. Evidence: Post 1 [slashdot.org] , and Post 2 [slashdot.org] . My script is made with JavaScript, ActiveX, and Windows Script Host [microsoft.com] . None of that commie open sores Perl or Python. Fuck you communist Lunix cocksuckers!! Pay your fucking $699 already, you goddamn teabaggers!!!

nigger fag nigger fag nigger fag jew (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012411)

fuck you gay niggers
gay gay gay gay gay gay
fuck you jew shithole slutfucking cocksuckers
fart
niggers suck the life out of life

fuck you all! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012430)

that is all.

Article text of byte-sized interview (-1, Offtopic)

eet23 (563082) | more than 10 years ago | (#8012443)

In case of slashdotting: I

Useful advice for slashdotters (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012456)


The Internet Fart Chair is a chair with a cushion composed of a porous material, and it generally belongs to an internet enthusiast. When the Internet buff is too engrossed in web surfing, he often cannot bother to lift his butt out of the chair, and his farts become trapped in the porous cushion. Anyone who sits in an Internet Fart Chair can smell the farts of the owner as the pressure releases the entombed gasses. Worse than that, however, the Fart Chair releases gasses in a slow process as well, leaving a slight smell of farts in the air for many days after the last fart has been forced into the foam.

But why worry about Fart Chair? Once the user gets accustomed to the smell of his own farts, the aroma can become quite pleasurable and even evoke a sense of pride and accomplishment. The answer is quite simple. Internet enthusiasts -- let's be frank -- will often need as much on their side as possible if they are to ever have success with the opposite sex. One of the best ways to improve your chances of closing a deal with a fair maiden is to eliminate Fart Chair, or, better yet, make sure you never get Fart Chair in the first place. After all, when you first get her back to your hovel, the first thing she will notice is the smell of your Fart Chair. You might think this is no problem, but remember: If this is your crucial first time having her over, SHE HAS NOT HAD TIME TO ADJUST TO YOUR FARTS YET!

The best way to make sure Fart Chair never happens is to use a chair with a plastic, vinyl, or wooden seat. The only way to contaminate these is to sit in them naked and fart when you have an intestinal virus. Even then, a quick swipe with some windex and a rag should eliminate the smell and solids easily. But what if you like to have a soft cushion covered with comforting cloth material under you? How can you avoid Fart Chair? You will not get Fart Chair if you simply follow this simple instruction: LIFT YOUR BUTT OUT OF THE CHAIR BEFORE FARTING AND LEAVE IT ALOFT FOR 30 SECONDS. This can be remembered by memorizing the simple phrase, "LIFT, BREAK, AND WAIT." There are some obvious obstacles to carrying out this plan, not the least of which is that if you eat a lot of fart-producing foods, you will get tired of lifting, holding, then sitting down again. Consider eating less gasseous foods.

You're doing great! I'm proud of your progress. But what if you already have Internet Fart Chair? You have probably already tried bouncing on it, beating it, sweeping it, but nothing worked. Internet Fart Chair can be a daunting enemy. There is one way, however, to beat Fart Chair decisively. Use a vacuum cleaner with the hose attached, but with no attachment on the end. Press the hose end repeatedly into the cushion, compressing the porous material, and repeat over the entire surface of the cushion. The farts will be quickly and efficiently sucked from the cushion! No more embarassing rejection by the girl of your dreams! You will have plenty of time to get her used to the smell of your farts later, but for now, it is best to stay on the safe side. Happy surfing!

# Impotent Stiff: Please try to keep pants on. # Try to touch other people's penises instead of your own. # Lick other people's rims before pissing in your own mouth. # Use a clear subject that describes what you are about to do. # Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments are encouraged by our pro-homosexual moderators # If you want replies to your comments brought to you, consider the consequences of CmdrTaco visiting your house and foot-fisting your son, your father, your grandfather, you and your canary. # Impotent Stiff: Please try to keep pants on. # Try to touch other people's penises instead of your own. # Lick other people's rims before pissing in your own mouth. # Use a clear subject that describes what you are about to do. # Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments are encouraged by our pro-homosexual moderators # If you want replies to your comments brought to you, consider the consequences of CmdrTaco visiting your house and foot-fisting your son, your father, your grandfather, you and your canary. # Impotent Stiff: Please try to keep pants on. # Try to touch other people's penises instead of your own. # Lick other people's rims before pissing in your own mouth. # Use a clear subject that describes what you are about to do. # Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments are encouraged by our pro-homosexual moderators # If you want replies to your comments brought to you, consider the consequences of CmdrTaco visiting your house and foot-fisting your son, your father, your grandfather, you and your canary.

Late-night uncaffeinated dyslexia (0, Offtopic)

CaptainCarrot (84625) | more than 10 years ago | (#8012497)

At first glance I read "Plone Founders" as "Phone Pounders." Imagine my reaction.

Re:Late-night uncaffeinated dyslexia (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012634)

Imagine my reaction.

OK. I'm imagining you deciding to go ahead and post something rather than attempting to re-read and make sense of what you just read.

Re:Late-night uncaffeinated dyslexia (1)

Waffle Iron (339739) | more than 10 years ago | (#8013036)

At first glance I read "Plone Founders" as "Phone Pounders." Imagine my reaction.

In my case, after reading the headline I was thinking for a second that O'Reilly had tried to interview some hacker known as "the Plone", and that the interview had gone horribly wrong.

aut0tr0ll is teh sp0kE!? (-1)

CHECKTHEGOATS (735227) | more than 10 years ago | (#8012520)

Hello master.

sid=93284
formkey=3raV5AHxBj

This is a joint venture that will be mutually advantageous to both parties involved.

GNA (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012535)

THE BLACK MENACE
In the past few decades, blacks have purposefully ostracized themselves, embracing Islam and giving their children pseudo-African names like "Jamal", "Shaniqua" and "LaTasha". They have formed anti-white hate groups and fabricated a culture for themselves. Thus, when they complain of persecution it is reminscent of college girls who get drunk around frat boys and are surprised when they wake up sore 'down there'.

The subject of whether or not blacks deserve their brazen reputation is one that few sociologists have had the courage to examine objectively. Statistics indicate that blacks are naturally prone to commiting crimes. Those who blame this on racism haven't looked at the success of Asian-Americans in this country and the fact that the descendents of the reviled Irish and East Europeon immigrants who are arrived at the turn-of-the-century are virtually indistinguishable from the rest of the population.

Black people are smelly and disgusting in addition to being materialistic. They waste all their money on flashy cellphones and cars in order to project an illusion of wealth. To make matters worse, they allow their children(which they have many of because most black men are serial fathers) to go hungry so they can buy the latest Tommy Hilfiger or Fubu clothing.

One has to wonder why Africa has always been such a hellhole while nations with far fewer natural resources have built great empires. Blaming Africa's retarded developement on Europeans is also futile, as they certain weren't thriving nations when European colonialism began. It couldn't be because blacks are inferior, could it?

Re:GNA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012578)

as they certain weren't thriving nations when European colonialism began. It couldn't be because blacks are inferior, could it?

Oh shut up already you ignorant bigot.

Yes, the nations were thriving when run by the whites who had both education and the experience of running the affairs of state. No-one ever bothered to prepare the native population how to run a modern country.

Then when these countries were given their independence, it all fell apart because no-one knew how to maintain the infrastructure. Furthermore, the borders of the nations were drawn arbitrarily across traditional tribal boundaries at gunpoint. When the guns went away, the fighting began.

So, yes, it was Europeans' fault.

You replied to an obvious troll (0)

Captain Bollocks (735649) | more than 10 years ago | (#8013127)

why nigger?

What's Plone? (4, Informative)

Eric S Rayrnond (739458) | more than 10 years ago | (#8012543)

Plone is built on top of the open source application server Zope and the accompanying Content Management Framework which have thousands of developers around the world supporting it.

Plone is ideal as an intranet and extranet server, as a document publishing system, a portal server and as a groupware tool for collaboration between separately located entities. A versatile software product like Plone can be used in a myriad of ways.

Who uses Plone? Many organisations. NASA / Jet Propulsion Labs, Lufthansa, the Austrian Government.

Re:What's Plone? (4, Interesting)

dracvl (541254) | more than 10 years ago | (#8012637)

Actually, the popular MAESTRO Mars Rover [telascience.org] site is also a Plone site.

Does anybody else find it slightly amusing that Plone is running on Sun's network - on Sun hardware no less - and no Java in sight? ;)

Re:What's Plone? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012706)

Well ESR you completely failed to tell us what it is aside from from throwing around some jargon - I still have no idea what Plone or Zope _does_ or what its purpose is.

That's not to say I didn't enjoy reading CATB and TAOUP.

Re:What's Plone? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012717)

I hope you are aware that you are talking to Eric S. Rayrnond.

Re:What's Plone? (5, Informative)

CapnKirk (201123) | more than 10 years ago | (#8012943)

Ok. Here's the long description:

Zope is a web application server. It is written in python. It has a builtin web server or you can run it behind apache, squid, whatever. It maintains all data in a object-oriented database. What zope does is generate dynamic html pages on the fly. You write a page template and when the user GETS that page, the variable information is inserted and then returned to the user.

Another feature is that a Zope website -- and much of Zope itself -- is managed via the web. And it has a very sophisticated security and permissions facility. It uses the concept of "roles" to which permissions and access to objects can be attached.

CMF (Content Management Framework) is a zope application that creates a set of services for the website developer: navigation, calendar, new items, workflow, etc. It also provides the basis for css-based "look-and-feel".

Plone, as was noted in the interview, started out as a CMF "skin." It has evolved into kind of a "CMF best-practices". It's philosophy is -- in part -- to permit the creation of *sophisticated* web content in a collaborative environment by users who know little or nothing about html, etc.

There's lots more to be said, of course. But I've been using Zope for two years, and Plone for nearly a year. My preferred scripting language is Ruby, but Zope/CMF/Plone is so valuable, I went out and learned Python in order to read the source code. Today, most of my work involves writing a page template and maybe some snippets of python code to go along with it -- often less than ten lines. Simple.

If your need is collaborative web content creation/management, web portals, etc., and Joe Sixpack is your user, then Zope/CMF/Plone is the way to go.

A very satisfied user,

Kirk

Byte-sized review in a nutshell (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012587)

0x42

litte plone commercial (5, Informative)

2.246.1010.78 (721713) | more than 10 years ago | (#8012668)

I really liked them talking about increasing 'mind share' in the interview, because when I had to set up a new website for my local political party youth organization, the hardest part was convincing people that plone is exactly what we wanted - they never heard of it and it takes quite some time to explain the whole thing to people that aren't geeks at all.

what we wanted was:

  • something with decent security - this rules out phpnuke
  • something that is standard compliant, xhtml and the stuff
  • something that is once set up and than easily managable by joe doe
  • something that serves as a depository for information and relates the information to other relevant information
  • something that seperates content and markup, plone1 does this halfway decent

Plone fit the bill and I think we can be quite happy how well it works, if you never tried it out: take the time and toy around with it a bit. The learning curve is a bit steep at the beginning (at least for the person that sets the whole thing up), but afterwards it is really a beautiful piece of software.

What exactly *is* Plone? (3, Informative)

0x0d0a (568518) | more than 10 years ago | (#8012725)

I'm trying to figure out exactly what all of the hubub is about. From what I can tell from a quick Googling, Plone is a piece of software that helps people use Zope more easily, by slapping a GUI on it. Zope is a Python-based content management system. Content management systems are apparently something vaguely along the lines of Slashcode -- they store data in a database and let you more easily generate webpages from said data. They would be used by someone who wants to set up an e-commerce website or a blog-capable website.

I may be utterly wrong -- I'm a little surprised that I couldn't immediately turn up a simple explanation of what these things are on the web. If I'm missing something here, can someone clarify?

Re:What exactly *is* Plone? (5, Informative)

darnok (650458) | more than 10 years ago | (#8012735)

OK, I'll go first - I'm sure people will correct me if/when I'm wrong...

Zope is a Python-based, Web application development system. It runs on *nix and Windows, and I'm pretty sure Macs as well. One of its key strengths is that it allows Web page designers, content generators and Web logic coders to work together without stepping on each other's toes - that's a big challenge with most Web application tools. You do all your work within Zope using a Web-based GUI, which is another unusual feature. There's a lot more to Zope than this, but that's enough for starters.

CMF is a Content Management system that runs on top of Zope. Content Management is for those sites where you want relatively non-technical people to be able to contribute "content" without having to worry about HTML and other nasty techo stuff. Think of people providing articles for your local school's newsletter - they should just be able to supply ASCII text, and someone else deals with typesetting and page layout. In this case, the "someone else" is CMF. There's more to CMF than that, BTW...

Plone sits on top of CMF, and adds extra tools such as workflow to CMF. In the school newsletter, you would probably have an editor who checks all the incoming articles, fixes typos and ensures nobody's said anything nasty. The contributor of the article would send it to the editor, who would then either accept or reject it. The "workflow" in Plone lets you implement this editor-type role in software. Again, there's a lot more than Plone than that...

Hope this helps a bit. I really like Zope, but as many people have said, getting your head around it is a bit challenging at first. Unlike many tools, it's difficult to "start with the easy stuff and learn the tough stuff as you go along" - Zope doesn't really lend itself to that approach, which I think is where many people struggle with it.

Re:What exactly *is* Plone? (2, Insightful)

stuntpope (19736) | more than 10 years ago | (#8013245)

Good description, but I disagree with your assessment that "it's difficult to 'start with the easy stuff and learn the tough stuff as you go along' - Zope doesn't really lend itself to that approach."

On the contrary, with built-in authentication, roles, template engine, through-the-web editing, etc, etc, Zope makes it easy to build simple sites quickly with little digging into documentation. Heck, the outdated built-in tutorial is good enough for that, and the Zope Book (free online) is very good at getting you headed down the road to more complex web applications. Plone has done a great job of taking the framework that is the CMF and polishing it into a more 'approachable to mere mortals' product. That said, I'm one of those who don't believe Plone is the answer for all Zope application problems. Also, if you've never done web development using PHP, ASP, JSP or the like, then you'll have more than just the Zope learning curve to climb (thus you'll hear the complaint, "where's the content on the screen actually coming from?").

From what I've seen as a long time Zope user/developer who has management 'buy-in' and other developers now using Zope, the Perl hackers and people comfortable in a *nix environment take to Zope well. They know how to dig for answers. The developers raised on a diet of VisualBasic and who think Access is database development are flummoxed because they no longer have an IDE telling them what to do, and they don't grok using the source (by the way, there's also the DocFinderEverywhere product, quite helpful). I know this comes across as a flame, but it simply is what I experience at work. I don't deny that Zope suffers from confusing, often outdated, inconsistent and even contradictory documentation, but there are plenty of resources. The resource sitting at the keyboard is also critical.

Re:What exactly *is* Plone? (4, Insightful)

Qbertino (265505) | more than 10 years ago | (#8012796)

Err, well, you've missed the mark a little.
Here's my quick standard reply:

Zope is an open source Web Application Server, developed allmost exclusively in Python (some speed parts in C) with an integrated object relational database, aka ZopeDB and a web frontend with access to all interal components.

That pretty much summs it up for Zope. :-)
Now for Plone:

Plone is a CMS and a content syndication system programmed for and with the Zope Appserver. These Zope Applications and 'addons' are very easy to develope and install on Zope (naturally, if you consider the description above) - think 'plugin' - and are called Zope 'products'.

So Plone it a 'tad' more than you're standard CMS, be it slashcode/e107/Nuke/whatever, since it can very easyly utilize the vast power of the underlying Zope and other products, like Webshops, syndication mechanisims or webcrawlers and data-mining bot's, just to mention a few. Zope actually severely blurrs the edge between database, application and frontend and leaves it completely to the developer where to draw the line between those components.
Imagine an appserver where you can just drop of data for storage at whim without having to mess with DB abstraction layers, conectors and stuff, that comes with a full featured web interface where you can track and modify the inerts of your appserver either by custom coding (in whatever language you fancy that has conectors to Zope, Perl for instance) or by using the interface options and elements - which you can of course provide with your own extensions.
That's what Zope and thus Zope/Plone is all about.
That one can't exactly say what Plone is in standard terms actually shows the power of Zope. Basically it's whatever you make of it.

Re:What exactly *is* Plone? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012874)

Plone is a product with a name so strange it's obviously an IT product aimed at:

a) getting good Google results
b) having its own domain name
c) making you look stupid when saying it loud

Ironically, Plone fails on point a) because Google doesn't seem to really deliver the goods on it. It fails on b) because Steve Plone [plone.com] got their first. And it fails on c) because when you say 'plone', people will respond by going 'pardon?'

My conclusion is that Plone is nothing. If it was something they'd have the .com and Google would be like "Hell yeah, it's like Plone man!!". If Plone is something, then it probably shouldn't be called Plone.

Simple.

Re:What exactly *is* Plone? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8012893)

0x0d0a, I imagine, right now, you must be feeling a bit like Alice, tumbling down the rabbit hole?

Well, we are trained in this world to accept only the rational and the logical. For a while, we were all able to escape that together. As children, we do not separate the possible from the impossible which is why the younger a mind is the easier it is to free, and why they were able to create Plone out of nothing but five letters and some hype. But now the rules have reasserted themselves. And it is harder than ever to really know what Plone is.

No one can tell you what Plone is. You have to see it for yourself. Plone is all around us. And if you can figure out just how to give programs to people on Minidiscs, and you don't understand Plone, then maybe you are The One.

Zope - a dream come true. (4, Interesting)

Qbertino (265505) | more than 10 years ago | (#8012739)

I've been dealing with Zope for quite some time now. What has been said here and in the interview about the weedy unfinished stuff and the (still) inconsistent documentation of Zope and it's Products ('Product' is a technical term in the Zope Appserver) is generally true.
If you don't have a knack at OOP *and* aren't willing to read through some messy, redundant and unfinished third party code experiments you're gonna have some hard time getting going with it.
Beyond that Zope is nothing less than the ultimate refrence for the way all server side stuff will be done in the future. Zope comes with a fully integrated object relational Database, runs with and on, what I call the fully GPLd equivalent to Java, Python and is an absolute breeze to develop with.
Technology wise Zope makes BEA, .Net, SunONE and IBM WebSphere look like some IE plugin in beta stage. Shure it can be a serious slowpoke on standard PC's, but nevertheless have I and some people I work with bet on Zope. When Zope - 3.0 is going to take a big step - reaches maturity in terms of documentation and community standards for developing, computers will be fast enough to make Zope the tool of choice for any server side thing one can think of.

OT! WTF? (was Re:Zope - a dream come true.) (1)

Qbertino (265505) | more than 10 years ago | (#8013268)

Please don't mod this down, I don't want to start a discussion, I'd just like to know.

...*and* aren't willing to read through some messy, redundant and unfinished third party code experiments...

I am *absolutely* positive that I wrote 'weedy' (as in 'weed') as the code isn't 'messy' but 'entangled'. 8-O
Are there people editing comments for readability? I'm shure there's no 'bot substituting 'messy' for 'weedy'.
Fact is, somebody or something edited my comment. That's fine, I'd just like to know who and how and if things like that happen here on /. Because I'm suprised and never knew.
It's OK anyway. I like 'weedy' better, but I guess 'messy' is easier to understand.

Re:Zope - a dream come true. (1)

LibrePensador (668335) | more than 10 years ago | (#8013457)

I am running Plone on a 400 MHz machine with 384MB of RAM, so not exactly a top of the line machine. And it works beautifully.

Re:Zope - a dream come true. (1)

Tablizer (95088) | more than 10 years ago | (#8014366)

Beyond that Zope is nothing less than the ultimate refrence for the way all server side stuff will be done in the future.

That is a little presumptuous. Anybody can say the same about their favorite tool or framework.

Re:Zope - a dream come true. (1)

hobuddy (253368) | more than 10 years ago | (#8015045)

[Python is] what I call the fully GPLd equivalent to Java...

Python is not "GPLed"; its license is an OSI-certified BSD-style license.

Also, being "equivalent" to Java is not really Python's goal. Python strives to be considerably higher-level than Java, and incorporates more unorthodox features, such as generators. Python could better be described as a semantic cross between Java and Lisp, with more pleasant syntax than either.

The problem with Zope (and Plone) (3, Interesting)

gunga (227260) | more than 10 years ago | (#8012773)

Plone is cool when you begin to use it because it seems to work immediatly, has a ton of functionality and looks good. I don't doubt it's a fine piece of software but there are big problems with it.

First, Zope's internals are overly complex and sometime guided by ideological choices (the object database IMHO). It's a closed world with its own culture and logic. Its culture doesn't promote interoperability (again that's my feeling). It takes you out of the Web and into Zope Universe (after all this year, there are still problem when you want Apache and Zope to talk together, eg. Digest authentication).

Zope is often dubbed (I think Jon Uddel first said this) "Python's killer app" but I find it very non-Pythonic: overly complex, non-explicit and un-welcoming. Plone adds another layer on top of CMF, Zope, the object database... it is very difficult to understand.

I think that the best web setup is still a light and fast frontend (and PHP is good at that), a solid Database (PostgreSQL is better than a lot of people believe) and a third "business logic" tier which can be a separate application or shared between the frontend and stored procedure in the database. It's not the perfect theorical model but it's manageable, it stays simple (if you work hard enough to keep it simple) and you can evolve a simple website towards this model without restarting from scratch each time the requirements change ("embrace change", remember?).

I'm fascinated by Zope and Plone because they do so much and frankly, I don't know if I'd be able to write such a piece of software. But I think it goes in the wrong direction: the application server direction. It tries to coerce the light, simple and stateless nature of the Web into the heavyweight transactional world of corporate applications, just like the Java world does (Java Server Faces seems to make it worse). It is difficult to make a good Web application, but it's even more difficult when you fight against the Web and the way it works.

Re:The problem with Zope (and Plone) (3, Interesting)

sirReal.83. (671912) | more than 10 years ago | (#8013524)

In theory, I strongly agree with what you're saying. In practice, however, having set up my own Zope/CMF/Plone side on Debian unstable (yes, unstable) and Apache, I'm gonna have to disagree.

It took me a while to set up Zope/Plone. There's a nasty bug in Debian's distribution of Plone, but thankfully there's a super easy workaround in the BTS [debian.org] . It also took a couple visits to #plone@irc.gnu.org to set up an actual Plone instance, but in retrospect it wasn't that hard. I got the Apache passthrough working too. Now, Plone's setup phase is done. Anything I need to change is done via GUI, and the Structured Text system is perfect for marking up content without obfuscating it. Oh yeah, and the Structured Text was the only thing I actually had to look at the Plone docs for. It's probably even easier when you use them start to finish.

I've used e107 [e107.org] , PostNuke [postnuke.com] , XOOPS [xoops.org] , Slash [slashcode.com] , Scoop [kuro5hin.org] and probably a few others. They're all neat, but I've had way more problems with them all, from just plain failure to strange errors to lack of features. e107 does have a TON more themes available, though.

You say Zope is going in the wrong direction, but I fail to see how. With Zope, you can build webapps into your Plone site - just don't ask me how. With most PHP-based CMS's you still have to install an SQL server of some flavor, and I doubt if you can build webapps in. You complain about Zope/CMF/Plone being three-tiered, but really CMF is just an addon to Zope - it doesn't add complication. And I think it's pretty sweet to be able to manage all your Zope stuff through one interface - including all your Plone sites and whatever else you've got going. You also complain that Zope is a "closed world" because of the object database. Yeah, it's about as "closed" as any other website that has an FTP backend - i.e. NOT.

And as far as speed, I haven't noticed a bit of difference between Plone and e107 (the only other CMS I've ended up using for real). I'm not pretending I get any real traffic, though. But to balance that, I've got a horrible setup - at the moment a P4-1.4 with 256/RAM and a cable modem with an upload cap of 256Kb.

In short, Plone rules. Not sure how it does it, but it does.

How does it compare to eZ? (1)

curious.corn (167387) | more than 10 years ago | (#8012911)

I've tried eZ publish [ez.no] which is a PHP based CMS. Does anyone know both systems enough to point out the differences in performance, setup, maintenance? Thanks.

Re:How does it compare to eZ? (1)

gunga (227260) | more than 10 years ago | (#8013250)

The main difference is scope.

Plone is big, it's a full Intranet-in-a-box. If EZpublish is enough for your site, you don't need Plone.

But you should do this (I did it). Take one or two days and prepare 2 mock websites (a standard corporate site and a community/portal site). Download a few 'CMS' and try them with these sites. It seems obvious but you'll discover a lot not only about their capabilities but the way you're at ease with them or not.

If EZ Publish is too little you should check Drupal. But test Plone anyway, some people really love it.

LIES! (1)

DrLZRDMN (728996) | more than 10 years ago | (#8013049)

Since when is 42.14 KB byte sized?

It's dangerously unstable (2, Interesting)

tylernt (581794) | more than 10 years ago | (#8013069)

It stores all of your data in one big fat file. I had a guy at work using it for a small workgroup. That one big file got a little bit corrupted, and he lost the entire thing. Everything was gone.

It would make far more sense, to me, to store things in separate files. That 'all your eggs in one basket' thing, you know.

Re:It's dangerously unstable (2, Insightful)

geniusj (140174) | more than 10 years ago | (#8013248)

he should have had backups.. you can take exports of it as well in both Zope export format and XML.

Re:It's dangerously unstable (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8013286)

Dont store your content in the "One Big File".

Use a relational database to store your data if
you are scared of FileStorage. Or use DirectoryStorage which does *exactly* what you suggest (storing each object in its own file).

People should really look at the ZODB. Its a very system for you to expand your horizons. I doubt 90% of developers have looked at a object database. They are indeed powerful/cool/flexible.

Re:It's dangerously unstable (1)

LibrePensador (668335) | more than 10 years ago | (#8013546)

I have been using it for a year with no negative side-effects. Of course, I do backups every week.

Re:It's dangerously unstable (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8013597)

You can backend your Zope instance in a relational database if that makes you happy. I had one running out of Oracle because "Oracle is the standard data storage tool" at that location.

Re:It's dangerously unstable (1)

Qbertino (265505) | more than 10 years ago | (#8014406)

Err, yeah, we'll how about that: A File gets a little bit corrupted and can't be used anymore. I have a little bit corrupted CD - it just won't boot anymore. And a corrupted kernel will panic on me. Would've you guessed?
If this incident is a KO criteria for you, I'd suggest you reconsider your evaluation strategies.
I'll bet my right arm that a corrupted ZopeDB File is easier to restore than a corrupted Outlook file. The other difference between them being that Outlook has a huge track record of being unstable in con to Zope.
Anyway:
1st: Backup.
2nd: Don't blame a failure that could very easyly be a hardware issue on software without solid evidence. Be it with Zope of anything else. Exept those apps that have a track record of being unstable under professional use. Such as Access DB or something like that.

Re:It's dangerously unstable (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8014941)

There are recovery tools for the big data file. Did you try using these? There are people who can recover the contents of the file for you. Did you ask for help?

Also, you don't have to use the default "one big file" scheme. You can store the data in Oracle, in many files and directories on a ReiserFS volume, on in Berkeley DB if you like.

Re:It's dangerously unstable (1)

kalistra (34343) | more than 10 years ago | (#8015245)

in addition to the obvious fact that backups would have saved your friend, it's also true that there is an alternate storage mechanism for Zope called DirectoryStorage which stores the ZODB as a directory tree (one file per object), instead of the monolithic FileStorage mechanism that Zope uses by default.

Ooops (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8014075)

Geez, I first read "O'Reilly interview with Ned Flanders". But then again, I'm drunk...
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