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Microsoft-Funded Linux Studies Benefit ... Microsoft

timothy posted more than 10 years ago | from the well-soopriiiiiise-soooopriiise dept.

Microsoft 431

mr.big_pig writes "The Seattle PI had a front page article analyzing the Microsoft's Get The Facts website and related ads compairing Windows to Linux. The short and sweet: follow the money and see just how 'independent' is this research. What caught my eye was that this was on the front page and not buried in the business section."

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Where is everyone? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8110203)

Is it a bug in slashdot, or has noone posted a reply to this story?

Re:Where is everyone? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8110233)

Yeah someone definately fucked up. No first posters either because of it. That's just wrong.

Re:Where is everyone? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8111652)

With the amateur idiots running this site they're likely making untested code changes directly on the production server(s). What, you were expecting solid, stable code [slashcode.com] ? Combine shit blogware with moron admins and you get Slashdot.

Everybody Loves Ninnle! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8111683)

Hey Dave!

Homard Salute!

SLASHDOT EDITORS COMMUNIST AGENDA REVEALED! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8111618)

I challenge Michael, Timothy, Commander Taco, or any one of the liberal slime here at Slashdot to answer the calls of the trolls.


Dean also suggested that computer makers such as Apple Computer, Dell, Gateway and Sony should be required to include an ID card reader in PCs--and Americans would have to insert their uniform IDs into the reader before they could log on. "One state's smart-card driver's license must be identifiable by another state's card reader," Dean said. "It must also be easily commercialized by the private sector and included in all PCs over time--making the Internet safer and more secure."

http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1107_2-5147158.html


I challenge you, Slashdot Editors, to reveal your true colors (red).

If any Slashdot readers support this movement, please continue to post this and mod it with any points you have! Our message must be heard!

Why are there only political messages on Slashdot which detriment President Bush and not any member of the Liberal Left?

FACE THIS CHALLENGE!

Internet driver's license would be a boon (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8111665)

Huh?

A global internet driver's license - comparable to that of a passport - would be an excellent idea!

It would facilitate readily traceable e-mails (good bye spammers), proof of identity when e-trading, access control to sensitive/adult content and so on.

I challenge you to rebuke these benefits - preferably in an intelligent way and not just dismissing everything as "commie-talk".

IT IS ALL COMMIE-TALK YOU FUCKING SOCIALIST!!! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8111684)

Requiring permission from the government to do anything is PURE FUCKING SOCIALSIM! Move to China if you want that you fucking coward. Leave us liberty-minded folk to our market desires.

NEWSFLASH: BUSH IS A LEFTIST (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8111668)

Bush supports big government EVERYTHING, primarily the military, the one part of the government that statist interventionists require. Dean sucks monkey cock (as do all Democrats), but Bush and his Pentagon imperialist spendoholics are no better. Bush is NOT A CONSERVATIVE.

By your logic (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8110206)

Microsoft can never pay for a study to be done. Noone can pay to have a study done that involves them or a field they are in. How will the studies be done?

Re:By your logic (3, Insightful)

Neo-Rio-101 (700494) | more than 10 years ago | (#8110354)

Why do you even WANT to study something like this?
Either way, it's obvious that Microsoft wants to trumpet itself... so ANY study they do is going to come off unfavourably.

If Microsft just advertised itself similarly to the word of mouth advertising Linux does... then Microsoft would fair better.

Unfortunately, Microsoft can't get the word of mouth advertising that money can't buy....

This just in... (5, Insightful)

macshune (628296) | more than 10 years ago | (#8110405)

It doesn't really matter *who* does the study...the results are almost guaranteed to be biased unless the study is comissioned by a truly independent organization and carried out by a truly independent studying group.

"SCO study proves Linux is built on SCOde."
"Linux study proves SCO is build on false-promises and deception"

hmm...SCOde is now the term one can use when describing copyrighted/poorly written code that might have fallen into a software product.

Usage:

"Dude, there's some SCOde in your program. Check out the variable."
"What variable?"
"$SCO_rocks"
"Crap..."

Re:This just in... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8111513)

"Dude, there's some SCOde in your program. Check out the variable."

"What variable?"
"$SCO_rocks"
That's obviously faked, it should be $SCO_SUCKS_ASS

Re:This just in... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8111548)

lets see ... Mitre did an independent study once, funded by a neutral third party: The Pentagon.

I often wonder how often MS will fund an "independent" study, have the results come out not in their favor, and shove it under the carpet and keep the results secret. As another poster mentioned, the studies themselves often set themselves up in MS's favor right from the get-go (eg, differing hardware, "Linux is mainly used for print, web, and ftp", etc)

Re:This just in... (3, Insightful)

m00nun1t (588082) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111696)

And even if it is truly independent, people will argue about the methodology [slashdot.org] .

Benchmarks, independent or not, are useful as a hazy indicator at best, a waste of electrons at worst.

In the article it says: (3, Funny)

ScottGant (642590) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111574)

Quip from article: In that way, the research fills a critical gap, he said. Companies "couldn't say, 'Maybe I should just choose Linux because there were 52 Slashdot postings saying that Linux is better,' " he said, referring to a popular Web site for technology news and commentary.

Of course, Slashdot also has as many posts about goatse...which kinda puts it all in perspective. lol

Re:By your logic (3, Interesting)

demise213 (688261) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111708)

This is the reason that we should all have crap-detectors set on high whenever evaluating ANY study...or any media used as a single source of information.

Someone owns every media outlet that exists...by it's very nature, it is impossible to be impartial. However, this is ok. This is how it's been since the beginning of news media. It is incumbent upon us to corroborate information and to value-judge what we read in print,watch on tv, or hear on the radio.

Use several sources. Usually the truth lies somewhere in the middle of all of them.

K

Interesting (5, Insightful)

LochNess (239443) | more than 10 years ago | (#8110217)

I think this part of the article is significant:
One problem, he said, is that companies will tend to keep under wraps the results of commissioned studies that turn out unfavorably. That means the public may get only part of the story when it reads a report sponsored by one of its subjects. "We're only seeing the ones they want us to see," Cherry said.

Re:Interesting (5, Interesting)

BuckaBooBob (635108) | more than 10 years ago | (#8110657)

Not to mention... How the studies are conducted... Mostly when MS is comparing Windows up against its like comparing Apples to Wax Apples... They can apear to be the same... But How they are used are 100% diffrent. The one study goes on comparing multiple windows boxes against a linux mainframe consolidation server... Umm... Well Linux can run on any platform windows can... why not use the same boxes? (Because it wouldn't produce favorable results for MS)

Where as I think most of the linux vs ms studies that get done are alot more closer to real apples vs real apples. But I haven't seen very many studies at all in detail poing linux over windows.. Its just my guess they are alot closer to a direct comparison than what I have seen in windows vs linux with windows on top.

Re:Interesting (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8111707)

I really wish some linux distrobutions would do some marketing studies though.
Just get groups of 20 people from a few different cities, show them Linux and ask what they wish would be improved the most.
Then ask what it would take for them to use it, and what kind of distrobution system would work best for them.

Re:Interesting (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8111499)

Has there ever been a Linux/Windows TCO study that /.'ers don't consider biased?

What's that? No?

Is that because every single fucking study ever done by anyone conclusively proves that Window's TCO is less?

Fucking zealots, thats why we in management don't trust your opinion on the SCO matter, and why we don't let you make decisions in general. You're so blinded by your Windows-hate/Linux-lust that you can't be trusted to make a rational decision with your employer's best interests in mind!

Fucktards.

Re:Interesting (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8111631)

Employer's best interest should be the bottomline and happy workers.

Buying Microsoft software won't get you either, so who's living in the reality distortion zone here?

Re:Interesting (1)

Zontar The Mindless (9002) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111639)

That's pretty sad when nearly 30 minutes after you posted that troll, nobody's thought it worth the trouble of modding down, eh?

(P.S. Lots of folks who use Windows don't trust MS-funded studies, either. Fucktard.)

Re:Interesting (3, Funny)

gnu-generation-one (717590) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111664)

"I think this part of the article is significant:
One problem, he said, is that companies will tend to keep under wraps the results of commissioned studies that turn out unfavorably.
"

Lemme guess, the rest of the article was unfavourable, so you kept it under wraps? ;-)

Where are the trolls?! (-1, Troll)

redhat421 (620779) | more than 10 years ago | (#8110243)

WOW! There are 3 stories on the front page above this one now, and there are only 3 comments!

So, whats going on you guys? Are you asleep?! This is open game for trolls! :)

No Comment (1)

Papa Legba (192550) | more than 10 years ago | (#8110255)

I suspect the lack of comments is due to the fact that this topic is SSOOOOOOO Obvious. What news flash are they going to pop next. Workers expected to produce when they are payed? Duh....

Re:No Comment (1)

plj (673710) | more than 10 years ago | (#8110284)

I suspect the lack of comments is due to the fact that this topic is SSOOOOOOO Obvious

Also che surrounding topics were both rather popular. I don't know the exact posting times of these topics, but one could suspect something...

GREAT SHITTING NIPPLECOCKS (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8110264)

SHITTING NIPPLECOCKS I WAS ABLE TO RESPOND!

wait a minute, this isn't news anyway. How about Howard Dean supporting a national computer ID system? That won't make the front page because the editors here only post political news that bashes Bush

http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1107_2-5147158.html

Re:GREAT SHITTING NIPPLECOCKS (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8111644)

Who the fuck is Howard Dean?

-chinese dude

A record (-1, Redundant)

Sterling Christensen (694675) | more than 10 years ago | (#8110268)

This probably sets a record. Least active topic in how long? A month, a year?

Re:A record (1, Funny)

Concerned Onlooker (473481) | more than 10 years ago | (#8110526)

It would have been until you posted....

Microsoft's new PR war (5, Interesting)

Larry David (738420) | more than 10 years ago | (#8110285)

I've definitely noticed in the last few mnths that Microsoft seems to be REALLY ramping up its PR war against Linux. They've been talking about it for a while, and now we're seeing it.

On the /. story below this there was a link to e-week about the 2.7 Linux kernel, and guess who had a big ad on that page? Microsoft. And the ad tried to show that Microsoft Windows Server is 11-22% faster in '4 out of 5' workplace scenarios than Linux.

Even Slashdot has been running Microsoft ads, and almost any tech news site you go to is crawling with them. Microsoft has a definite advantage against Linux when it comes to ad budget, as only IBM seems to be really pushing Linux in terms of PR and advertising.. and even then it's more about IBM's solutions than Linux, which is not surprising really. And so Microsoft is going to continue funding studies and surveys, slightly tweaking the questions to favor them ("How easy do you find it to connect to an Active Directory from Linux?"), showing the world the results which are good, and dismissing the surveys which are bad.

I wonder if there are any Linux mad advertising zealots with deep pockets to get some ads on those sites, and to generally kick up a stink and get us lots more stories in the papers and magazines. This is a PR war, and if you're a Linux devotee, make sure you fight back against it in some way (even if it's just winning your clients over to Linux even more).

Re:Microsoft's new PR war (5, Insightful)

Killswitch1968 (735908) | more than 10 years ago | (#8110377)

I've definitely noticed in the last few mnths that Microsoft seems to be REALLY ramping up its PR war against Linux. They've been talking about it for a while, and now we're seeing it.

Linux's true downfall has far less to do with MS's market dominance than it does with basic marketing. It's nice to have a product, but it's useless if no one knows about it.
For example the people that use Internet Explorer do so not because "other browsers don't work with ActiveX" but because they are not even aware of the existence of Opera or Mozilla. The only browser ever mentioned in the same breath as MS is Netscape, which is massively inferior to the aforementioned browsers. At best it's marginally superior to MS, but not enough to have a significant competetive advantage.
Take a look at iMacs, often cited as one of the most brilliant marketing programs conceived. Personally I hated those ugly things, nevertheless they did exceptionally well.

Re:Microsoft's new PR war (4, Funny)

Larry David (738420) | more than 10 years ago | (#8110643)

I agree, although it's often more simple than that. I converted a client to Mozilla Firebird, which they used for a while without incident. Eventually they admitted they'd gone back to IE. Why? Because they preferred the look of the IE icon.

This is what we're dealing with out there.

Re:Microsoft's new PR war (4, Insightful)

McDutchie (151611) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111678)

Linux's true downfall has far less to do with MS's market dominance than it does with basic marketing. It's nice to have a product, but it's useless if no one knows about it.

Thankfully, Microsoft is fixing that now.

Re:Microsoft's new PR war (2, Insightful)

fajoli (181454) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111686)

Linux's true downfall has . . .

This assumes that the value of Linux is diminished somehow by fewer users. Linux (the kernel) does not gain from network effects the same way a browser does. Linux cannot win or lose in a practical sense. And as long as hardware manufacturers don't actively cut their only lifeline to Microsoft independence, Linux should continue to operate just fine for the millions that use it.

On a related note, in my experience this past year, Mozilla compatibility has been steadily increasing. Both from accomodations by the Mozilla team for IE's flaws and increased awareness from website authors.

Re:Microsoft's new PR war (2, Informative)

SgtChaireBourne (457691) | more than 10 years ago | (#8110688)

Well, it's largely a marketing company. For the three months ending December 2003, it spent $ 2 467 000 000 USD [sec.gov] on sales and marketing. Some of the other line items probably include some marketing activities, so that's at least $ 9 868 000 000 000 USD per year.

The gains that Linux, BSD, OS X and others have made despite this warchest is quite a testimonial as to how far behind that company's technology is.

Re:Microsoft's new PR war (0)

cubicledrone (681598) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111542)

$ 9 868 000 000 000 USD

Wow. $9.8 trillion. Now that's a lot of banner ads.

Re:Microsoft's new PR war (1)

sweede (563231) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111624)

what the hell is 2 467 000 000 ?

and btw, 2,467,000,000 * 4 != 9,868,000,000,000 (trillion) , but 9,868,000,000 (9.8 billion) Which is probably incorrect seeing as its unlikly that they spend the same amount each quarter.

Re:Microsoft's new PR war (4, Interesting)

inode_buddha (576844) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111533)

And that's just it right there. MS is smart enough to know how far PR goes despite damn near owning the desktop market. The "pure linux" players haven't even tried (RH, SuSE, etc.). I know their budgets aren't as huge as MS or IBM but I'm surprised they haven't caught onto this. It would make my week to see an RH or SuSE ad on TV, like some of the Apple ads. I'd even be wiling to bet that the ROI is worth it, if they do it in tech-heavy cities such as Boston, Atlanta, NYC, LA, Chicago, etc.

Re:Microsoft's new PR war (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8111588)

> I wonder if there are any Linux mad advertising zealots with deep pockets

You could try asking some of the people who've made a lot of money writing code for free. Uh, I mean...

Re: Seattle P-I... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8110306)

now what would REALLY be funny in Seattle is if the Seattle Times ran an article touting only the positive pro-Microsoft spin from the article in reference to Linux to offset the P-I article.

For those that don't know, the Seattle Times and Seattle P-I are almost the same paper. They run off the same presses and share the same classified advertisement group. Supposedly, they operate independently besides that and are under separate ownership...

This is not quite the same as the Chicago Tribune vs. Chicago Sun-Times, which are two different papers that reach two different target audiences in Chicagoland. One is tabloid format, the other isn't. Enough said on that one. It takes about 30 minutes to skim the front few pages and the last few pages (news in the front, classifieds in the middle, sports on the last 7 or 8 pages) a given Sun-Times, and about an hour and a half to make it through the Trib...

Eh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8110311)

Yeah, I don't get what's up with the comments.

This is quite the phenomenon.

just checking if posting works (-1, Offtopic)

arvindn (542080) | more than 10 years ago | (#8110318)

can't figure out why no one has posted anything yet...

indeed (3, Insightful)

themusicgod1 (241799) | more than 10 years ago | (#8110394)

mabye the ms goons have got everyone. seriously though. there's talk of a microsoft pr war. what to do in case of pr war? KEEP USING LINUX. keep yourself well fed. if something is totally annoying about linux, fix it! if you don't know how(like me) start getting chest deep in README's, manpages, HOWTO's and whatnot. and if your not a geek, beg a geek to help you, or use BSD or something, which due to academic interests will never die out completely.

hit the wave head on, and don't break. after all, even if microsoft ever does create a supperior OS, it won't matter. we have the highground, and they have no intent of taking it. Freedom, my peers, is what we have chosen. Computers do what we, their owners and commanders tell them to...and freedom means the freedom to know what other people have told our computers to do. No more spyware imbedded into our software! no more fucking buggy windows 98 crash ten times in one session bullshit...i don't care if XP is more stable than this, we know they are capable of this, and they will fall back to this in the future. Their software may become worse with time, but should Linux ever go truly bad, we can always take a few steps back

'2.13.5 sucks soo badly mostly since linus got addicted to heroin? we're bout to start a fork back at 2.9.3 where it was still descent' and we can do this! do you think we're ever going to be able to fork windows 95?
and most importantly, don't let yourself be beaten down to far, after all, what is more impressive, a bunch of broke MS developers who are fighting over the few thousand jobs available (all at microsoft)...or a linux user with all sorts of cool and unthought of applications that will only occur to us in the next decade or two? of course there isn't really such a black and white comparison here but the spectrum of choice...but we have nothing to fear. we have the upper hand, and it's going to stay this way for the near future, at least.

Re:indeed (1)

JollyFinn (267972) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111558)

'2.13.5 sucks soo badly mostly since linus got addicted to heroin? we're bout to start a fork back at 2.9.3 where it was still descent' and we can do this! do you think we're ever going to be able to fork windows 95?

Hey 2.13.5 sucks, but why to hell you wan't to go 2.9.3, both of them are unstable versions, fork the stable release not just some beta crap either 2.8.6 or 2.10.5 .

Re:indeed (1)

Dogtanian (588974) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111612)

2.13.5 sucks soo badly mostly since linus got addicted to heroin

Classic quote, folks!

Best quote ever... (5, Interesting)

ghideon (720955) | more than 10 years ago | (#8110321)

"Dan Leach, group product manager for the Microsoft Office System, was asked at the time whether Microsoft would have publicized the results if they hadn't been positive. He answered that he had been so confident in the software's benefits that it "was never going to be a question." Is MS smoking the same stuff that SCO is??!?

Re:Best quote ever... (1)

beav007 (746004) | more than 10 years ago | (#8110328)

I would have to assume so...

Re:Best quote ever... (2, Interesting)

einhverfr (238914) | more than 10 years ago | (#8110477)

"Dan Leach, group product manager for the Microsoft Office System, was asked at the time whether Microsoft would have publicized the results if they hadn't been positive. He answered that he had been so confident in the software's benefits that it "was never going to be a question." Is MS smoking the same stuff that SCO is??!?

Of course they are. MS is probably not intentionally conspiring with SCO to kill Linux. But SCO got their mind-altering stuff from Microsoft and now they seem like they are the same company.

This may sound like a joke, but think about it. MS may not be saying "Hey, SCO, sue IBM!" Instead, the shared delusions are enough that they don't have to-- SCO will be MS's lackey without either one of them having to afferm the relationship in any official way. The SCOX execs get fraudulant profit from it, while MS gets PR. Match made in heaven.

Re:Best quote ever... (0)

Ravenrage (739755) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111703)

and you thought Microsoft gave sco money?????

billg:hey darl try some of this

Darl:i don't know bill

billg:come on one taste can't hurt ya

darl:ok(takes some)

billg:man i think linux has some of your code in it

darl:(takes some more) Whooooaaaaaa dude i think ur right

now we just need to find billie's dealer and put a cap in his ass :)

if linux is illegal only hackers will have linux

Re:Best quote ever... (4, Funny)

EmagGeek (574360) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111566)

Since Microsoft is paying for the stuff SCO is smoking, I would say yes..

Must be... (5, Funny)

PHPgawd (744675) | more than 10 years ago | (#8110326)

...that Slashdot readers are finally sick commenting on stories about Microsoft and SCO... That must be it...

In other news, recent market studies have a massive decline in the demand for porn on the Internet, and...

Shock horror (3, Funny)

ozric99 (162412) | more than 10 years ago | (#8110332)

I really don't mean to sound like a troll, but honestly, the day Microsoft pays for and publicises a report in which linux comes out on top will be the day it should get front page headlines. This is just business as usual.

Is it possible to mod Stories as redundant?

Sat here watching my karma go wheeeeeee all the way down ;)

Perhaps you're missing the point (4, Insightful)

qortra (591818) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111559)

To me, the content of the story is not the interesting item here; it's the fact that a well known publication in Microsoft's own stomping grounds is publishing a story like this; I for one am very proud of them.

Keep up the good work SeatlePI and Todd Bishop.

Not entirely BS (5, Interesting)

NutscrapeSucks (446616) | more than 10 years ago | (#8110334)

First of all, any vendor TCO study is going to be completely bullshit. However, there's a glimmer of truth in the Microsoft stuff:

+ Realistically, the software & hardware costs aren't going to be significantly different between Windows and Linux. Yes, you can download Linux for free, but your boss is going to pay real money for RedHat or SuSE.

+ Unix admins are more expensive than Windows admins, although they generally have a much higher skill level. Maybe as Linux penetrates the market, this will equalize (both in cost and skill level).

+ MS selected specific scenerios to favor them. For example, File and Print have never been a strong spot for Unix -- Novell and MS have owned that segement for years and years. It will be interesting to see what Novell/SuSE puts on the market.

And attacking Linux on Mainframes is like hitting the broad side of a barn -- There might be some scenarios where it makes sense, but for the most part a mainframe has pathetic price/performance and is very expensive to keep running. (Although, that wouldn't stop IBM from selling you one.)

And as for J2EE -- some of the tools are ridiclously expensive, so that's a pretty easy cost study to rig.

Re:Not entirely BS (3, Insightful)

Spillman (711713) | more than 10 years ago | (#8110535)

Unix admins are more expensive than Windows admins, although they generally have a much higher skill level. Maybe as Linux penetrates the market, this will equalize (both in cost and skill level).

I always laugh at the "windows staff is cheaper" stuff. I seriously can't believe the number of people who buy this. It's so blatently obvious that windows staff is cheap. Supply and demand IMHO. More companies use windows so there is more of a need for windows techs, and dare i admit it, there is not much need for skill in the windows market. I know how to stuff ranging from the mundane to the administering on both windows and linux, and even though I think linux is more powerful and practical, many tasks are easier to do on windows. But what do you expect?

I really laugh at the number of people who use windows and think they are getting a deal when they could be using linux or another open source alternative instead. I'm certain that if linux got more advertising it would totally stomp windows in the business market. Do we reall want IBM marketing linux? Look what happened to OS/2.

Re:Not entirely BS (5, Funny)

BiggerIsBetter (682164) | more than 10 years ago | (#8110658)

Yep, J2EE is ridiculously expensive. I mean, just check out these figures...

JBoss Appserver [jboss.org] - Cost: $0.00
IBM 1.4 JDK for Linux x86 [ibm.com] - Cost: $0.00
Eclipse IDE [eclipse.org] - Cost: $0.00

Re:Not entirely BS (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8111638)

That's great if you're putting up your mom's recipes on a toy website, but what about a real site where you have to actually employ people which cost more than $0.00 and you want enterprise-level storage, databases, load balancing, redundancy/reliability, AND you actually want some support for this system from vendors. The real enterprise stuff is expensive.

Re:Not entirely BS: Linux' response (4, Insightful)

G4from128k (686170) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111576)

First of all, any vendor TCO study is going to be completely bullshit. However, there's a glimmer of truth in the Microsoft stuff:

Whether the report is biased or not, it would behove the Linux community to respond to the report with innovation, not just scorn. For example, improving ease-of-use on admin tools could create a drop in the cost of a Linux support people. Or better File and Print features (Novell/SuSE migth be doing this) could improve TCO in that arena.

My point is that fixing these perceived areas of "Linux inferiority" would make it even harder for Microsoft to create the next version of a biased report. If Open Source is smart, they will exploit these biased marketing reports to set future development priorities and fill any perceived gaps in functionality, ease-of-use, and TCO.

Re:Not entirely BS (1)

EmagGeek (574360) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111586)

Something to keep in mind with the Windows Admin cost vs. Linux Admin cost is this: Any moron can administer a Windows box. Why? Because Windows doesn't give you control over anything. Linux gives you control over every little detail of how a box runs, so naturally a *nix admin has to know more stuff than a windows admin does.

After all, there aren't any "Wizards" living in your Linux box....

Re:Not entirely BS (1)

millahtime (710421) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111628)

"+ Realistically, the software & hardware costs aren't going to be significantly different between Windows and Linux. Yes, you can download Linux for free, but your boss is going to pay real money for RedHat or SuSE."

Yes, you will pay real money for them but Windows XP Pro is $300 compared to Redhat at $180 is still a cost savings. A $120 savings per machine can add up quickly and doesn't even take office software into account.

"+ Unix admins are more expensive than Windows admins, although they generally have a much higher skill level. Maybe as Linux penetrates the market, this will equalize (both in cost and skill level)."

It takes less unix admins than windows admins. I have worked on both sides of the fence and in my experience it takes less unix admins. They may cost more per admin but it takes less to do the same job.

"+ MS selected specific scenerios to favor them. For example, File and Print have never been a strong spot for Unix -- Novell and MS have owned that segement for years and years. It will be interesting to see what Novell/SuSE puts on the market."

Have you looked at Samba 3 as how it compares to microsoft windows 2003 for file sharing....in independent tests it was reported to be 2.5 times faster at the same activities (this was reported on /.)

They make points but sometimes you have to look deeper. They may look good to the untrained eye but aren't really that great of points.

True if they assume Oracle and WebLogic everywhere (5, Interesting)

steve_l (109732) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111704)

Looking at the
.NET vs J2EE/Linux study [microsoft.com]


The reviewer compares the cost of WebLogic+Oracle versus Windows Server+ SQL server. While the OS is much cheaper (and they omit costs of securing the platform against repeated worms), it is the cost of the proprietary software that gives MS its 25% cost saving.

The thing is, the cost of the app server and database are huge; they dwarf everything. So a large size company would only pay $5K for Redhat versus $40K for windows, but then pay $160K for WebLogic and $40K for oracle (versus $0 and $20K for the MS solution). And of course the annual maintenance fees are simply a fraction of the software costs, so they are more on the j2ee system.

Really the survey says 'J2EE using Oracle and WebLogic is more expensive than .NET and SQL server'. And it probably is true. But that is what comes of not embracing open source more fully. Adopt JBoss instead of WebLogic, save nearly $160K. Adopt Postgres or MySQL instead of Oracle, save $40K. end result: open source wins hands down, provided development costs are roughly comparable.

So yes, the study was utterly rigged. It makes a valid critique of using WebLogic and Oracle, but says nothing about Linux/JBoss/mysql.

Bias aside (5, Insightful)

Kolinar (605296) | more than 10 years ago | (#8110386)

Given the "LINUX performance analysis" from Microsoft in the past, I tend believe these "independent reports" are more or less propaganda. Bias aside, I think the point is made, that the problem isn't whether Microsoft attempted to influence the reports or not, but rather the fact that Microsoft sponsored the study puts (conscious or unconscious) pressure on the analysts performing the study to be bias one way or another.

It is the same reason why drug companies need to perform double blind testing on new medicine to see whether the effects are merely due to influence from the people performing the study and the patients being told that they would get better.

similarly, though Microsoft may demand that the reports be objective, the analysts employed may just by association, subconsciously put Microsoft products in a slightly better light.

Sun and IBM... (5, Insightful)

MosesJones (55544) | more than 10 years ago | (#8110414)


The IDC study is such rubbish. It talks of Linux developers and ISVs...

And fails to mention the two corporate giants who are backing and rolling out Linux across the globe. Sun and IBM.

Its like talking about the Superbowl, but not mentioning the teams.

Re:Sun and IBM... (2, Interesting)

Rosco P. Coltrane (209368) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111673)

All Windows vs Linux researches are meaningless because of one simple fact: Microsoft has billions available to throw at making Windows better, whereas the Linux community, even with RH and other prominent companies, is rather poor in funding in comparison.

If I was an IT manager, I would consider Linux to follow a "best effort" sort of approach, whereas Windows, being far less than free, should come with guarantees about stability and performance. However, at least in terms of stability and security, Linux certainly outperforms Windows, if not by much these days. And it probably isn't far from Windows in terms of raw speed.

So, basically, those studies compare apples and oranges. In the cycle racing world, if Joe Bike, with no funding, no top-level medical staff and a simple bike, was to finish a race second or third to Lance Armstrong, everybody would herald him as a great hero, and Lance Armstrong's team wouldn't put up a website pointing out Joe Bike's poor performances compared to Lance Armstrong. Fact is, Microsoft has much vaster resources than the Linux community, and only manages to perform marginally better than Linux at best. That's what the studies should show. Throw Microsoft's billions at Linux and Windows would instantly become a laughable joke.

Well Guh! (5, Insightful)

Greyfox (87712) | more than 10 years ago | (#8110430)

Microsoft funded studies have been popping up since my OS/2 days. They all have some things in common: They seem to try to obscure the fact that the study was funded by Microsoft, they all come to favorable conclusions based on questionable premises and they all seem to end up on a forum like this one, with everyone calling shennanagans.

Studies are a marketing device for Microsoft. We may as well get used to being on the sharp end of their marketing department's pointed stick.

I shouldn't even post this (5, Interesting)

2Bits (167227) | more than 10 years ago | (#8110588)

I've refrained from posting on any garbage like that forever, but since not much people are posting (sick of it already, or too busy combing thru all the reports?), I'll chip it one.

Disclaimer: I've not read all the reports, just the article and the IDC report.

Microsoft's Taylor said that findings are also presented in such a way that they can be duplicated by others. I'm not sure. The reasoning for the quantification method is weird at best. On p.10 of the IDC report, every item for Linux is more expensive.

Let's take hardware. The hardware for Linux is more expensive because it is assumed that for the same hardware, Linux can handle less load than Windows, therefore, you need more hardware if you deploy Linux, hence higher cost. That's weird, how did they come up with that assumption? It's certainly not explained in the "open methodology".

Software: how did they come to the conclusion that Linux softwares are more expensive? I can't find the list of comparable softwares they used in their study. If this methodology is really open, let's provide the data, shall we? And they claim that Linux is used mostly for print, file serving, and web serving. Well, if that's the case, the softwares for those functionalities cost almost nothing, except for support, which is more or less the same for both platform. How come I remember I used to pay thousands of dollars for a Windows Server allowing only 5 connections?

Staffing: Sure, Linux/Unix admin are more expensive. That's true only if you assume that each Linux/Unix admin can only do the same amount of work as an MCSE monkey. You draw your own conclusion.

Downtime: Whoa, Linux cost more for downtime (in a couple of cases)? Real data please?

Training: That, I'm not sure. It's probably easier to pick up Windows, as every new kid is already familiar (more or less) with windows interface already, before the training? Ok, let's say the data here are correct, but I still want data.

Outsourcing: I can't seem to understand how did they come up with that conclusion. I'd like to see the raw data.

The funny thing is this: the report said that Linux is used only for "light workload on the edge", and not for the real stuff.

Hmm, I guess they didn't talk to the CIO of amazon.com (hint: based on their previous experience with Linux for other things with a $16M cost savings, they are moving their mission-critical terabyte database to Linux!)

Re:I shouldn't even post this (3, Interesting)

LordK2002 (672528) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111689)


The hardware for Linux is more expensive because it is assumed that for the same hardware, Linux can handle less load than Windows, therefore, you need more hardware if you deploy Linux, hence higher cost. That's weird, how did they come up with that assumption? It's certainly not explained in the "open methodology".

This is a fundamental flaw in logic known as "begging the question" - by assuming what you want to prove and then "proving" your conclusion based on that incorrect assumption.


I.E. "Linux is less cost-effective in performance than Windows, therefore you need more expensive hardware to run it, therefore you have to spend more to achieve the same performance, therefore Linux is less cost-effective in performance than Windows."


If this is truly what they are saying, then I would be tempted to dismiss the whole campaign as illogical garbage.


K

This wasn't even *supposedly* objective (0)

SlashDotAgent (700292) | more than 10 years ago | (#8110632)

The "get-the-facts" sub-website is part of M$'s campaign againts Linux.
Like in every campaign, reasearches supporting it are quoted.
They do not even claim that all researches came to that conclusion, but rather just show that ones that did.

I think this is great news... (5, Interesting)

jkrise (535370) | more than 10 years ago | (#8110672)

Just 30 posts so far, hours after an article on MS is put up on Slashdot. Guess it implies that study reports (funded, sponsored, sexed-up, or otherwise) carry little weightage with IT consumers, these days.

This could explain why Linux adoption continues to increase despite all the media hype and study reports - users and organisations are probly doing the study reports themselves..... consumers getting wiser is a highly undesirable phenomenon for the Corporat types - I think we'll soon see Ask Slashdot article on "How to Keep the Consumer Stupid?"
-

If Linux is really so bad... (2, Insightful)

Flyboy Connor (741764) | more than 10 years ago | (#8110685)

...why the hell does Microsoft need to campaign so much against it? It is not as if Linux is campaigning to push Microsoft out of the market, is it? If Linux becomes a big player, it will only be because of its merits. And Microsoft claims the merits aren't there. So what are they worried about?

Re:If Linux is really so bad... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8111585)

microsoft is scared, their claims are false! they dont want you to know they are crippling with linux around, so they are trying to fool you. Duh. its like in the wild, preditors go after the weak prey...and windows is getting weaker, though its nowhere near what you think i just said.

52? (5, Funny)

Red Pointy Tail (127601) | more than 10 years ago | (#8110696)


Companies "couldn't say, 'Maybe I should just choose Linux because there were 52 Slashdot postings saying that Linux is better,' " he said, referring to a popular Web site for technology news and commentary. "That's really what drove a lot of the emphasis to say, 'Hey, fine, let's really give a set of facts.' "

Did they miss out the 000,000 somewhere?

Re:52? (1)

nnnneedles (216864) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111655)

It's official: MS fears us.

I bet they're reading this.

Hello Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer and Martin Taylor.

Send me a hundred thousand dollars and I will start posting in favor of windows.

It's a good deal and you know it!

Thanks.

Heh! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8111476)

Re-first post!

Ironic... (1)

TheWanderingHermit (513872) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111512)

When I opened up the page for the article, the banner ad on top was for the MSN Smart Watch.

I wonder, with random ad placements in banners, if there will eventually be a requirement that ads don't show up on pages with content saying something less than favorable about the advertiser...

Silver lining is good for you. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8111524)

GNU on the front page! They say any publicity is good publicity. And microsoft payed for it too.

Thanks to Microsoft the word is getting out. (1, Funny)

Interruach (680347) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111529)

Wee! Free publicity!
According to one of the papers, Microsoft servers are better than linux in 4 out of 5 times.
That means that at least 1 in 5 servers should be running linux by microsoft's own research!

It's nice to see Microsoft finally using their marketing for Good.

Re:Thanks to Microsoft the word is getting out. (1)

segmond (34052) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111650)

It's really funny that you mentioned this, we really should find more things like this and turn it around on them.

Microsoft PR war? (1, Funny)

PatrickThomson (712694) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111536)

Everyone in my family is an average consumer, which means they equate Microsoft with computers, and that Windows is the only OS out there. The microsoft PR war, if it happens, will cause the following effect.

"Hrrm... according ot this article, linux is bad"
"What's linux?"
"let's MSN Patrick, he'll know"

See where this is going? Nerds, adopt as many newbs/idiots as you can, and educate!

finally! (1, Funny)

Jacek Poplawski (223457) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111551)

Their website doesn't work. At least link to article. After so many years we finally found way to destroy Microsoft. All you need to do is post more MS-related stories, and see how their servers die.

PS. Windows is better than Linux in 4 on 5 scenarios, but I always hit in that last scenario.

Intregrated solution? (1)

Bender Unit 22 (216955) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111554)

I like Linux myself and I do use it alot. But to me it stil misses one thing.

When you install a Novell server or a Microsoft server these days, you get Directory Services with them both. You have the possibility of integrated groupware products that works together with the the Directory Services just like file serving, print services, internet access and alot more, all controlled from one system. Specially Novell have made a great system for centralized management of decentralized serveres, and I as far as I can see, MS have begun to understand that concept too now.
But with Linux, you have to build all of this yourself, There's a lot more work that needs to be done before it can replace MS servers. You don't just grab a distro, install it from the CD and then you have the same functionality.

I would like to see it however, but I have yet to see anyone focus at replacing MS servers on the LAN for internal services, and unless you are a big company, people would rather buy a solution that has all those features instead of you developing it yourself.

An old quote... (1)

jdhutchins (559010) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111569)

The best say "We're #1", the second best say "We're better than they are" Which one is MS doing?

GEEZ!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8111577)

Why is this newsworthy?
When IBM releases a new version of Domino, is there a posting on macslash?
It is HIGHLY probable that more of Us(tm) have to deal with things like Domino, or Oracle AS, or what-have-you, then some consumer level video editing program.
So what? Apple released, no wait, is GOING TO release a new version of Final Cut.
Did you hear that SUN is going to "ignite" the "Adrenaline Rush" in "Java Technology" based games? Well I hope you didn't hear it on slashdot.
What the fuck? since when are press releases newsworthy? Surely when they relate to the geek population. How many video editors do you know who read macslash? no, really. I know 0
I know 3 IT guys, 2 IT managers, and 4 programmers who read macslash. They don't give a DAMN about some piece of software that they'll never use

Doesn't matter (1, Insightful)

cubicledrone (681598) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111581)

OS X rules. Should just get a Mac and ignore the argument. Think about it: all the apps, all the CPU speed, 8GB RAM, and a *nix operating system.

Offtopic, Flamebait and Troll, and the little grey duck took all the karma home.

Re:Doesn't matter (1)

Grievre (699596) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111607)

If that's your sig, it's poetically appropriate.

News@11! (1)

sepluv (641107) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111582)

News@11! OMG! Reports suggest that M$-funded studies tend to support M$. [waaa...aaaaah...I sounded l337 then.]

As M$ have such a track record as a company who like to pay people to say that their software is crap (reverse astroturfing[?]), reduce their own profits, tell the truth and make as little money as possible; I find this to be a shocking revelation.

How could even the borg be so evil. This beyond evil. It's a conspiracy -- M$ could not have thought up such a plan themselves -- the CIA, the FBI, MI5, Bush and the Queen (all known for their vast intelligence) must have masterminded such a plot. </sarcasm>

Seriously, Maybe this is a coincidence, but anyway, their site is slow for me ATM and below (quite funny) is what happened when I first tried out their site (when it was first /.ed) -- it has also beens low when not /.ed and other people on different connections have confirmed its slowness.

I'm on a very fast college connection (Gb/s or sthg and direct connection to the European backbone) (with hardly anyone else around as its after closing time). Earlier I downloaded Apache which took a few seconds.

Shortly afterwards I thought I'd check the MS anti-free-software site at http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/facts/ to get my blood pressure up, and to laugh at their reasons why free software is more expensive than proprietary software.

The homepage took more than 2 minutes to load -- I went off to talk to someone and came back and it was still loading! When it loaded I read the first news item on the page and ROFLed.

The news item (at the forementioned URI) says that, and I quote, "Microsoft-sponsered benchmarks [by an] independent review by Meta [a company]" show that "WinTel web servers perform better than Linux".

Need I say anymore...

Dumb story (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8111587)

So researchers should work for free to be considered independent?

Beating a dead horse... excessively (0)

graveyardduckx (735761) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111595)

I don't think the word "news" applies to this article, but I guess "olds" just doesn't sound right either... how about "same shit, different day"?

Selective Reporting (2, Insightful)

fuzzybunny (112938) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111596)

What I find hilarious in that marketing "report" is the focus on "TCO" (which isn't so total). They don't address a whole bunch of factors which come back to bite you as a MS-only shop:

-resultant (direct and indirect) security costs
-inflexibility
-hardware costs
-...

So essentially yeah, I can say the TCO (including acquisition) of a network of P90s running a DOS-based text interface is really low, but what does that say about my business' capability? *silence from the ranks*

I'm no Linux fanatic--I believe in somewhat heterogenous environments, and that every app/product has its place. Also, Microsoft here have been doing a fantastic job responding to our needs and requirements with information and updates about security issues, even though I'm sure it's a direct result of pressure and arm-twisting (shows what a bit of competition can do to a lazy organization).

However, this sort of goes to prove that adage about "lies, damn lies and statistics". What a lot of IT shops who've focused entirely on the bottom line start realizing is that you don't get around hiring very good, expensive IT staff if you want to keep your business running. Fact of life and all that.

But then again, I don't expect the types of people who want "facts of life" distilled down to "numbers on a Powerpoint presentation" to necessarily be directly interested in long-term benefit to their companies.

I've made a difference (2, Funny)

WebMasterJoe (253077) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111602)

'Maybe I should just choose Linux because there were 52 Slashdot postings saying that Linux is better,' he said
Well, he must have at least looked at the slashdot article, because a headline I made fun of last time [slashdot.org] has been removed! Previously, the headline read "10 Times Less Expensive Than Linux," and now it's "Far Less Expensive." It's stilll wrong, but at least it's not quite so absurd.

But since my voice was heard the first time, I have another suggestion. Stop trying to look like Apple! That page looked like it came straight out of Quartz! Why not try making your documents match your own company's image, instead of a competitor's image?

I don't understand it (4, Interesting)

Qbertino (265505) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111635)

It don't understand this. M$ can't be _that_ stupid, can they?

Step number one was completly negleting OSS and hoping customers wouldn't notice. *That* was a time when M$ should have prepared to sell it's own Linux distro with DX 9 and some other embrace and extend stuff. They missed it and screwed up. Lucky was we.

Step two was bashing the GPL as 'unamerican' and other bullshit and bringing customers to look twice at licensing where they used to give a hoot about the small print. Thus causing them to also look at M$ licenses and notice what BS they have been subscribing to for years allready. Ballmer backed of merely a half a year later and admited it was a bad plan to draw so much attention to OSS by bashing Linux/GPL in such a way.

Step three: Publish studies were everybody with more than 2 braincells notices in an instant that Linux/OSS is on top of things and M$ knows nothing other to do about it than flail the bullshitting-club left right and center.

Can a company of this size with marketing departments on a budget as big as the anual throughput of something like the third of afrika be so stupid and windows focused to pull such a mindless stunt?
Honestly, if I were a stockholder of M$ I'd be somewhat pissed and would want a question or two answered on that matter. M$ better get a grip and start preparing to change their business model or else they're gonna be in deep shit faster than any of us had ever hoped for.

Lie vs hide results (1)

Simon Lyngshede (623138) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111651)

I personally don't think that the research companies make up results, just to please Microsoft. I do however believe that results that doesn't favor Microsofts products remain upublished.

The result for the research companies work is only valuable because people trust them, they can't really afford to lie. On the other hand Microsoft wouldn't allow them to publish which doesn't favor their products. The research is stil useless, because the company who is paying can choose not to make the findings available.

Don't worry, be happy! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8111656)

Now that war has officially been declared, let's get on with it. Finally, Microshlock is starting to waste advertising dollars on bogus studies to try to undermine Linux. Let's think about this: how is the war on mosquitoes doing? or cockroaches or rats? Linux is successful because it's critical mass has long passed the point where it can be eradicated. Don't fight by repudiating MS's store-bought 'facts', fight by spreading the infestation! Do some guerilla marketing. Demonstrate Linux using Knoppix http://knoppix.org (for example) - and leave them with a CD. Install OpenOffice everywhere and anytime you can. Most of all, get to the students and educators. They are the real targets. MS has vast programs to hijack the curriculae of schools, colleges and universities. War can be hell, but let's make it hell for Redmond.

In other news.... (1)

DarkHelmet (120004) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111657)

Fox guarding henhouse benefits... Fox!

$subject is $adjective for $object (3, Interesting)

jki (624756) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111672)

as in: "Our response to WTO has been to spend 300 million yuan on a research and development centre and improve the quality of our brands. In March last year, a research centre in Kentucky found that our tobacco, grown using only natural fertiliser, causes the least harm to consumers. Actually, it is good for health - it calms the mood and stops old people from becoming muddled and getting Alzheimer's disease." -- Hill of the Red Pagoda Group, China's biggest cigarette producer. O'Neill, M. Beijing briefing: tobacco giant in training for WTO, "South China Morning Post" 2000 August 28.

There is approximately 42^42 reports published yearly on any given subject. If you cannot find your truth in one of them you just don't know what you want your truth to be like.

template (1)

pergamon (4359) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111679)

$ORGANIZATION_A funded study shows $ORGANIZATION_A's product far superior to $ORGANIZATION_B's product. News at $TIME.


Big $EXPLETIVEing deal.

I am happily surprised that it made the front page of a Seattle paper, though.

Microsoft-Funded Linux Studies Benefit Microsoft (1)

Qbertino (265505) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111685)

In related News:
Sky is blue.

Speaking of being independent (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8111692)

Slashdot is certainly unbiased...NOT

Classic (1)

Infernon (460398) | more than 10 years ago | (#8111702)

I guess I should be ashamed of myself for always being so surprised when Microsoft continually refuses to defeat something via innovation or hard work and instead chooses the propaganda route.
Their strategy, in this particular case, will probably lure a couple of CIO's who stumbled upon the 'independent study' into Microsoft's camp, but then again, anyone not willing to do a fair amount of research on their own probably deserves Microsoft software.
We're in the process of phasing out our Microsoft servers. Currently, we've replaced ISA with Censornet (totally kicks ass) and we're going to be moving our DNS and DHCP servers over as well. We do have a couple of applications that depend on Windows, so I don't suppose that we'll be dumping those boxes any time soon, but the point I was trying to make before I sidetracked myself is that replacing ISA with a free solution that does not require a weekly reboot and would probably run forever if we locked it in a closet is something that my boss really likes. TCO of our Censornet/Linux box? What they're paying me. TCO of ISA server? After licenses, you've got your downtime due to reboots, etc. It was also on a pretty beefy box as well (before this gets flamed).
Oh, right... I'm new to Linux, but I can read and teach myself. It took me three hours to replace our ISA server and I've spent about two administering its replacement over the past two months. It's not hard to pick up at all, but I suppose that all runs back to the propaganda machine...
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