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Harmony project Dead?

CmdrTaco posted more than 15 years ago | from the thats-not-so-good dept.

KDE 142

Jaws writes "According to this letter found on Linux Daily, the Harmony project is officially dead, based on the fact the last source check-in occured last November."

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hmmm... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030722)

Good and bad.

Well, mostly bad.

But only bad because the only possible outcome of this is that the KDE-bashers will all crawl out from under their rocks and start blabbering their big mouths again.

Too bad.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030723)

Having multi-thread support in Qt (Harmony) would have really convinced me to take another look at Qt coding. Right now GTK+ still has better multi-thread support. One has to wonder though, if we should not redesign GTK+ from the ground up for threading. The current solution (gdk_threads_enter()/leave encapsulation) is really just a stop gap solution. But then again, there is no threaded X11 server that I know of...


Well I use GNOME... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030724)

..So I guess this doesn't affect me.

QT is open source anyway (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030725)

Now that QT has gone open source, nobody needs Harmony anyway. And please, shut up if all you have to say is "uhh QT sucks". That applieas especially to those gtk zealots. I have nothing against GTK. I am just glad that QT is now open source. Nevertheless the stupid "holy war" continues...
Don't like it - don't use it. But don't bash it!

Well I use GNOME... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030726)

It does affect you. KDE is here to stay. And so is GNOME.. They'll just have to communicate with each other. WindowMaker + KDE 1.1 = killer combo!

What is the Harmony Project? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030727)

Can somebody tell me what was the Harmony Project?

WM + KDE? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030728)

it seems as many ppl doesnt understand that kde is not window menager, ppl running kde only are actually running kwm with kde on top of it, i use gnome+afterstep, works great, i have even qt libs installed....


Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030729)

Trool Tech really fooled us.
First there was the Free QT foundation, which was NEVER signed into existance (and would have ment nothing as QT hired one of the voting KDE members).
When people began to moan about that they pull the QPL.
Even if you aggreed with the QPL's terms.. NO VERSION OF QT HAS EVER BEEN DISTRIBUTED UNDER IT. Think about it, if TT was playing level here, why didn't they just rerelase the current version under the new licence?
The reason they didn't is because the QPL will never be appiled to QT.
QT is propritary, thus KDE is propritary. Which isn't so bad.. Except they fell they have to lie to us. This is sickening.


Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030730)

Just like the Free QT foundation (which never existed), the QPL is just a ploy to allow KDE to build a market share position where we have no choice to accept it.
This is bad, very bad.

No Subject Given (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030731)

Another nail in an open KDE's coffin...

uhh QT sucks (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030732)

There, I said it.

Threading is overrated (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030733)

On most PC class hardware, ``threading'' buys you nothing. Unless you have SMP and threads that can take advantage of SMP, you will notice almost no differnce on a typical Unix system. And from a software engineering perspective, many so-called ``threaded'' designs are just a new way of reverting back to global variables and ``goto'' constructs.

In fact the term ``multi-threaded'' is usually misused. Because ``multi-threaded'' implies reentrantcy, it is entirely possible to have ``multi-threaded'' software on Unix without even having ``threads''. The Unix process model is able to support multi-threaded software designs, and portions of Unix have always been multi-threaded (i.e. reentrant). For example, most Unix file system code can be considered multi-threaded.

Who cares about KDE (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030734)

Who cares about KDE, only Windows people use it anyway. Let it rot alone in the corner with the rest of the crap like EMACS.

Big mouth, little code (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030735)

It seems that once again, the rabid Stallmaninstas managed to write a check with their mouths that their code couldn't cash. If it was really important to the really important people, it would get done.

Who cares about KDE (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030736)

aint that the point? to give migrating windows users a familiar interface to work in as they begin to learn linux?

Here's my .xintrc file (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030737)

# WindowMaker Default .xinitrc
kcontrol -init &
krootwm &
kpanel &
kfm &
/usr/local/bin/wmaker -nodock -noclip -nocpp

Window Maker was configured with --enable-kde

Good luck!


PS. I'm sorry to say, but this combination kicks GNOME's butt right now :)

WM + KDE? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030738)

What do you gain by using WindowMaker over KWM?

Bullshit! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030739)

I telephoned TT 4(5?) months ago and was told that it wasn't signed yet.

Just like Gnome. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030740)

Harmony was just glitter.. The licencing matters to no one. That's why gnome died too.. Gnome never really cared about the licencing.. Just look, they included a propritary Redhat lib in gnome (libart).
But now harmony is offically dead.. I suppose the gnome announcement will come soon.. The only reason gnome lasted as long as it did was because of RH labs, cause high quality software can't be produced without commercial backing. But RH has cut off the labs because they couldn't produce. Gnome's design was too antiquated (MS OLE2 HAHA) and the programming languages they used were too antuiquated and unstable.
Since the QPL went into effect most Gnome deveopers moved over to KDE, since the change in licence removed their one fantasy reason to stay..

This is a perfect example of the software indrustry. Good software beats out the week.

Who cares about KDE (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030741)

Hey, don't be dissin' emacs.

That's just plain not true. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030742)

You say: "Unless KDE took GPL source from somewhere else, this just plain isn't true."

Well, IIRC, that's exactly what they did. I am not sure what parts it were. Isn't Mico GPLed? If it were, they are breaching the license of Mico in offering a derived work to be linked with Qt.

Shutup and write code (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030743)

All of this bitching about KDE and GNOME is flatout stupid. If you're ideologically opposed to KDE stuff because of the libs, don't use it. There is always GNOME.

If you want GNOME to be successful, write fscking apps for it. Right now KDE is very usable and stable, an awful lot of people have put a lot of work into it. Don't bitch them out for their hard work.

KDE has opened Linux to a lot users who wouldn't be using Linux in the first place. These people make our platform more attractive and give Linux a better chance at penetrating all aspects of business. I don't know about you, but I hate leaving Linux for anything, even for office productivity stuff and games. We need KDE and GNOME to bring Linux onto the desktop, and KDE has opened up this possibility for some people.

In the future, carefully consider that when you bash KDE, you are bashing the work of people who are very (I daresay justifibly) proud of their work. They've put in a lot of time and have not been paid for their efforts.

They've earned the right to some respect. Please give them this respect whether choose to use the software or not.

You Gnome people make me laugh ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030744)

... your project is crash happy, ugly, and
apparently develops slower than mollasses.

KDE will be 1.1 and improving while Gnome is
still debugging their crashy ORB and using a
pathetically un-utilitarian giant Panel. What
are those icons like 100x100? Oh wait, you
have a wide variety of RAD fantasy backgrounds
to choose from and cool GUI half of which
don't work right and have serious flicker

You are all doomed to insignificance as your
main programmers don't care to and aren't pushed
to develop simple easy to use software.

Meanwhile open source QT 2.0 will rule as a
trusted and proven TT knows how to make a
GUI toolkit right.

GNOME is dead !!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030745)

The only harmony Harmony brought was the death knell of GNOME. How sad. I wonder how Red Hat will get their $$ back.


KDE, the real alternative.

Threading is overrated.. NOT! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030746)

In that respect the Window API kicks our butt...


I've done much threaded programming on Windows NT(Win32), OS/2, HP-UX, and Linux. And personal experience is that Windows definitely does not kick anyone's butt. Personally, I feel it was done best (of those mentioned above) in OS/2, followed by Linux. I've found useful both user threads (missing from Windows) and kernel threads. With kernel threads on Win32 you've got to be very careful about making graphical (e.g. GDI) calls or you end up with Z order problems, lost focus, etc.

Just like Gnome. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030747)

This just _has_ to be trolling. Everything you say is complete bullshit: laughable bullshit. Lemme guess :

- You're under 16 years old
- You have no brain, or clues
- You run Windows



Uh, Guys, he was being Sarcastic... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030748)

"That's why Gnome died too..."

anonymous cowards? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030749)

Sorry for sending this as anonymous coward - but I'm currently not sitting in front of my own computer and can't remember the password ...

Anybody noticed that all the flames here are started by anonymous cowards? Not that I want slashdot not to allow anonymous cowards anymore, but when reading the replies, you should at least think about it. If somebody doesn't want his name printed here and he's flaming others, let him alone! It's not worth all that trouble!

Michael (

You TROLL people make me laugh ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030750)

I think the "Troll" in Troll tech applies to people like you. I don't believe you are a KDE developer, because you need to be at least a little intelligent to write code.

Intelligent ppl don't post flame bait like yours.


Duh (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030751)

These posters use AC (like a lot of good users) because it's more conviente that way. (and there is no chance of some little slip coming back to haunt you, now that job interviewers do 'net searches).
If you ban AC then people will go make bogus accounts (using hotmail and the like) and then you wont be able to get an idea of post content by looking at the name at all.
Look at Meept, slashdot's biggest reoccuring troll.. He's named, but still anonymous.

Ban the Cowards! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030752)

If AC's are banned I'm afraid /. will get BORING real fast

Out of 68 posts, 41 are by AC's. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030753)

That's -more- than 50% (34 would be 50%, for those that can't divide). You seriously want to -ban- 62% (roughly) of the discussions on here? Bah. Whoever said that Trolls are only started by AC's have just been proved wrong by your post.


Sorry to hear that. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030754)

I'm sorry to hear that... Don't the crashes bother you? Have you tried KDE? No.. Try it, you wont regret it!

Usenet (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030755)

Usenet Usenet Rah rah rah. Usenet Usenet sis boom *bahhh*.

nearly but not totally immortal (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030756)

Yup. Accidents do happen... this is free software so grab it and and change it if you wanna.

Old Source never dies, but sometimes the oxide does flake off of the backup tapes....

KDE, GNOME, KDE, GNOME... There's an alternative! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030757)

I don't like KDE's license, and I don't think
GNOME is quite what I want. So, I'm supporting
the GNUstep project.

That's an alternative, one that's WAY behind both KDE and GNOME, but has the potential to be the greatest. If only it finds support.

Pedro Ivo Tavares
Not logged on by choice.

Who cares about KDE (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030758)

No, it is not.. We don't need them, they will make
Linux lame as windows are..

Well I use GNOME... but it's slow as fuck (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030759)

You can improve it easily.....
jusy run imlib_config
tweak it and you can see perfomance improve.
People always complaint thing slow in enlightenment or in gtk pixmaps themes, but if you config the imlib cache to be bigger if you have extra memory, thing can be speed up easily. Try it, IT DOES IMPROVE !!!


Well I use GNOME... but it's slow as fuck (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030760)

You can improve it easily.....
jusy run imlib_config
tweak it and you can see perfomance improve.
People always complaint thing slow in enlightenment or in gtk pixmaps themes, but if you config the imlib cache to be biggery, thing can be speed up easily. Try it, IT DOES IMPROVE !!!


Yeah! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030761)

A program that out-of-the-box maps the backspace key to help is clearly superior to anything coming out of Redmond! But wait, you say, you can remap help to another keystroke, like META-SHIFT-CTRL-], for example... all it takes is a handly Lisp s-expression...

Emacs is 70s technology. I use it all day every day, and I'm keenly aware that there has to be a better way.

There would be gnome apps but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030762)

The damn GPL forbids just about everything.

Threading is overrated.. NOT! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030763)

> In that respect the Windows API kicks our butt...

You misspelled BeOS. Hope this helps.

Why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030764) the KDE people proclaim GNOME to be dead when new versions are being released on what seems like a weekly basis. some people seem to think that there /HAS/ to be only /ONE/ way?

Who cares about KDE (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030765)

I tire of the "who cares about KDE" attitude.

KDE has done more for promoting the use of Linux by emulating what is in Windows a good interface let down by a poor underlying system than you will ever do with you "CLI forever" attitude.

If you would rather live in the stone age, using CLI until you die, that's your choice. Personally, I choose to evolve and stay current with what is going on - KDE is useful, comes with a good set of tools for beginners (or they are easily available) and provides an entry point for Windows-users into the stable but somewhat alien underlying systems that make up Linux.

Grow up!


Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030766)

IMHO, it seems as though people seem to co-mingle two very distinct aspects of this whole discussion. There is 1) the technical merits of these two projects, and 2) the free-software aspects of these two projects. As for the first, the debate could go on forever I assume. Though for the second, it is rather cut and dry. KDE plus QT is not free software. There seem to be a lot of KDE fans out there who don't think that this is such a big deal. And these are probably the same folks who wanna see all those proprietary games ported to GNU/Linux too. What a shame.

congrats trolls for squashing competition with FUD (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030767)

I really like Troll Tech's president's threat of a lawsuit against Harmony developers in the Harmony newsgroup a month or two ago.

Nice touch, Trolls.

Many of these developers are the very same people that graced you with KDE and popularized your toolkit in the first place.


KDE uses plenty of outside GPL'd code (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030768)

If your claim was true you could easily come up with an author of some of this "plenty code" who explicitely states that he did not gave permission and that he want he code to be removed from KDE. If not it's just plain FUD, as usual.

The GPL does not forbid linking against Qt, that's just nonsense. It never did and it never will. Neither does the GPL forbid to port applications to Qt. The GPL is a free software license, a Copyleft. It was meant to support the creation of free software. So why should it hinder people from writing more free software? Some people may argue that the distribution of binaries linked against non-GPLed libraries might be a problem. But even this point becomes pointless if the library is freely redistributable or even part of the system distribution.

Your claim that people commit to KDE just to hinder distributors to ship KDE is just ridiculous.

Yippie for flamewars (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030769)

Its good to see this flamewar being brought back to life. For awhile I thought it was dead. You can always rely on Slashdot for bringing back the best flamewars.

Oh, yeah.. ban them damn anonymous cowards.. while you're at it kill all jewish bastards too. Black people? Who needs em! White people? Bah, we don't need them. All we need is Linux and all but everyone will be happy.

WM + KDE? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030770)

Ctrl-Fx switches to desktop x under KWM...

KDE, and perjury. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030771)

Can anyone not connected to Troll Tech and/or the KDE project independently verify the legitimacy (or lack there of) of the legal documents signed by Troll Tech and the KDE people? Maybe post it here? Please?

On another note, perjury has only occurred when a false statement is knowingly made about a matter that is germaine to the investigation or case at hand. Starr was investigating Whitewater, and screwing your interns has absolutely no connection to the White Water matter; thus misrepresenting the truth of the intern relationship during the Whitewater investigation was not, and will never be, perjury.

Threading is overrated.. NOT! NOT! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030772)

one word win16mutex! well actually 2 words and a number try doing some low level vxd style stuff on 95 and then while some app has the mutex juz try to display anything besides a blue screen. someone needs to thump microsoft for thunking as well.

Without Harmony, KDE is not an option for us. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030773)

I have looked at the latest incarnation of the Qt license and it still isn't acceptable. I work in a corporate environment. My company has released probably millions of lines of free software over the years, but we can still not live with the Qt license even for research use.

Another problem with the Qt license is that it means that Windows versions of software (even free software, as far as I can tell) require expenditure of money.

It's a shame to see a lot of the KDE effort have gone to waste, but without Harmony, KDE is essentially dead for us.

Fortunately, Gnome seems to be coming along nicely, and the fact that Gnome is plain-C and CORBA based probably makes it technically a nicer choice anyway.

QT is open source anyway (NOT!) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030774)

Qt may come with sources (it always has), but it still has lots of restrictions that make it unusable for a lot of development efforts.

For example, GTK already has a usable, free implementation that people can use to distribute free software for Windows. That's very important to the acceptance of free software in the Windows world, IMO. Qt strikes out on that.

Also, the Qt license terms make it unusable for internal corporate development efforts. We can't predict which of our projects are going to be open source themselves in the end or what license we are going to choose for them. With Qt, that's a constant worry. With Gnome, it's not an issue.

Just like Gnome. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030775)

Harmony was just glitter.. The licencing matters to no one. That's why gnome died too..
The licensing matters to me and to lots of other people who have to make a choice between Qt and GTK. And I find the Qt license unacceptable, even in its recent versions. We would be foolish to develop any kind of software with the Qt toolkit, and we won't.

Well I use GNOME... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030776)

I've recently installed Gnome and use it with AfterStep, a nice WM. The Enlightenment I installed looks crude, well, maybe more configuration is needed.

Gnome originally used Mico. I visited their site and it seems to be a fine project. Why has it been replaced by ORBit? I intend to learn CORBA programming, any recommendation?

I also admire KOffice's effort, esp. KWord and KPresenter which seem to be well ahead of Gnome's.

stop this... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030777)

i don't want to read anything more about people hating kde for any reason. i read an interview from a kde developer some time ago about the qpl and he said: "people will always find anything why they don't like kde". and that's true. oh yeah, gnome is that much better. yeah, i like gnome, i'm using lot's of gtk-software, but i'm still also kde-user... you can program oss-software for kde, can't you? and don't tell me, you can't. so what's the problem? you can code oss-software, nobody will steal it from you and sell it or use it, cause you can distribute your kde-software under the gpl! kde is free and will always be free... so, what the hell is your problem??? too, bad that the harmony project died. but perhaps the developers of harmony are happy, too. cause they can work now on other, more important things. maybe a commercial gtk ;-)

HAHAHA.. GMC looses by a mile (if not more!) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030778)

Have you seen GMC lately? The most useless part of GNOME I think (no offense Miguel). It crashes like nothing else I've seen on Linux (version 4.5.9 I think). Also the icons are butt ugly and it has a general unpolished feeling to it.
KFM on the other (the one in KDE 1.1) is very usable, polished and doesnt crash as often as GMC does (but it does crash sometimes when manipulating desktop icons).

Your turn!

QT is open source anyway (NOT!) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030779)

As far as I can tell, making commercial programs with GTK is easier than with Qt. With Qt, I definitely have to pay a license fee to Troll Tech. With GTK, I have to redistribute the GTK sources.

It's not the few thousand dollars that we might have to pay for Qt if we used it in a commercial application that bother me (peanuts compared to rolling out a product), it's the fact that Qt doesn't take advantage of the community model of software development and that Qt can't be ported by third parties to new platforms at all.

The Qt license doesn't seem all that different from the MFC license: we get the sources, we may not have to pay for deployment, but some company still controls the platforms where that software can get deployed.

Bullshit! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2030780)

Read the reply above.

Ban the Cowards! (1)

pez (54) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030806)

50% of what is posted on /. is either completely
inflammatory, or total crap.

99% of that 50% crap is by ACs.

Make everyone log in and the quality of the
dialog will increase twofold. Those who really
have something to say will log in. Those who
want to troll or flame will be much less likely
to do so because now their name is associated.


morons (1)

vertigo (341) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030810)

The majority of the posts in this forum make even the zdnet forums look like a place of common sense, intelligence and well-formed opinions.
At first i was agreeing with Katz' latest column about the value of anonymous cowards. Maybe he's right that Anonymous Cowards are neccesary, but no more than shit is neccesary. And i value the posts by these lame morons even less.

Keep 'Doze Echoes (not!) (1)

Chris Johnson (580) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030811)

Hey, maybe it's just my not ever having used Windows, but I _don't_ think the windows desktop is workable and useful. I detest almost all the decisions made in it. I used a Mac for years, and still use one, and I'm posting from one right now- and I _don't_ want a window manager that acts like a Mac, either. (impossible to get anything even vaguely close as far as consistency etc).
On Linux, I use Window Maker, after also having enjoyed Afterstep. Some of the Window Maker decisions I absolutely love- most of all, I am fond of the clean uncluttered nature of it. If I want lots of additional tiles I'll make many workspaces and keep different apps docked on each one... the idea that I need to be subjected to a taskbar, and a start menu, and a certain way of handling virtual desktops (I'm undecided which is better, Afterstep or WM- Afterstep's mini iconic version is very nice, but WM's 'you put it there, you remember it' is gratifying, and the clip 'switcher' is damned elegant in practice)
My point is that I am really pretty hostile towards KDE, due to its stated objectives and obvious goals. If I wanted the Windows desktop _I_ _WOULD_ _USE_ _IT_. Instead I used (and use) a Mac for years- and don't intend to try and change it into Windows or into WM- and using Linux, I went for Window Maker and don't intend to change it into the Mac, or into Windows.
I'm really sick of the notion that we should make Linux better by making a shell that acts like Windows, only without crashing. Is that the best you can do? Do you have _any_ _idea_ how very specific that approach is? It's not that way by accident. The taskbar is there because people used to launch apps on the Mac and not understand when the app waited for them to select or create something- or switch to another app, hide the first and 'out of sight, out of mind'. The concept of relying on the user's ability to know what the hell they are doing is laughed off by this approach- it's always luser-friendly in Windows land, until you want to scream. I'm sorry, but even if I'm only some Mac weenie with a hacking gene from somewhere, I'm still not going to sit around quietly as people try to pass off the design of Windows as workable and useful.
Build your own, or stay home.
There already _IS!!!_ a Windows. It is obscene to attempt to build another one. Build something original.
*hehe* goody, I can get flamed by KDE people for the rest of my life for _this_ one ;)

Yeah, no kidding... (1)

Chris Johnson (580) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030812)

If I want One True Way I can tell you right now what I'd be using. MacOS ;) MacOS is seriously consistent, has a massive supply of apps with very long lifespans, and is easily fixed if anything goes wrong with it. Boot off something and shuffle stuff around in the System Folder, bam- 'no huhu'.
I _don't_ _want_ 'One True Way'. I want many different ways. Currently I'm a Window Maker fan on LinuxPPC, but I also liked Afterstep. I never managed to get Enlightenment working, but if I had I'd have played with that too. I played with twm, for God's sake, and enjoyed it! (wow... it's like the void of meditation...)
The KDE people are really beginning to annoy me with this attitude. I know where they got it- Microsoft- and since in their world my years of happy Mac use are a delusional fantasy and mirage, clearly they are sincere in feeling that there has to be just one 'winner' and everything else must die.
Personally, I'd like to see them take that attitude right back to Windows, and LEAVE it there, and not pollute Linux with it. Linux is a 'world' where I can try out and use lots of interesting apps, the authors of which had no _clue_ they'd be having their tools compiled and run on a Powermac. It's a world where I can love the Afterstep animated backgrounds- and I'm not the only one to be impressed by, say, 'Swarm'- and can find that hack works perfectly in Window Maker- that it's more general than I thought!
And it's a world in which I can use kppp to dial out from Window Maker- and struggle for days to figure out what is broken that I can't get wmppp to do the same- and find out that kppp is making _temporary_ changes in important files, so that the configuration data GOES AWAY when you stop using KDE tools!
I find that little bit of 'lock-in' hard to forgive, and I wonder how many people have enough of a hacker gene to work out what's being done and look at files being used, figure out what's happening. It's fine not messing with systems that already work, but KDE has sometimes been the system default- like with the linuxppc I began using- and this is not behavior suited to helping people understand how the system really works, this quiet adding and erasing of entries in config files.
I don't find it unthinkable that someday I'd treat KDE tools and applications like Microsoft code and eradicate it upon discovery- it wouldn't take much to reach that point, after my merry hunt for the pppd gremlins.
The frothing, deadly advocacy of some of the KDE advocates does _not_ help. Maybe some of the less ruthless ones can try to cool off the problem cases and make 'em get with the program? Their 'KDE will march on a road of bones!!!' attitude is absolutely unacceptable.

QT is open source anyway (1)

Trepidity (597) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030813)

Sure, Qt is Open Source(tm), but it still is not GPL-compatible, making linking KDE with it still illegal.

That's true. (1)

Trepidity (597) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030814)

Unless KDE took GPL source from somewhere else, this just plain isn't true.

There's quite a lot of GPL source from other places in KDE, which is the reason I made my original comment. I'm quite aware that the authors can do whatever they want with their own source, but they can't do whatever they want with the GPL'd source of other people. They do not have the permission of every single code contributor to make an exception to the linking part of the GPL, so therefore linking KDE with Qt remains illegal.

GPL (1)

Trepidity (597) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030815)

I have no problem with KDE or the KDE developers, and could care less whether it looks like Windows or not. The problem I have is that the GPL is a license agreement, and it needs to be respected. When the GPL says you cannot link GPL'd code with non-Free libraries, it means exactly that. Of course, the KDE team can write an exception for the Qt libraries into the license for their code, but they do not have the right to amend the license of code which is not their own. They take quite a bit of GPL'd code from other people, and the license of that code must be respected, whether it is convenient or not. They can't just decide to ignore the GPL because they feel like it.

It seems to me that KDE wants to be GPL in name, so they can use source from other GPL'd apps, but not in practice, so they can continue linking to non-GPL-compatible libraries. If they want to do so, making KDE LGPL would solve that problem, and would be fine with me. However, they have not done so, so they are violating the GPL, which is illegal. I don't care if their interface is better, more advanced, or the best one possible, but it's still illegal.

Idiot. (1)

HoserHead (599) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030816)

I've used Linux fulltime since 1.4.xx
Really? Wow. What an accomplishment, especially considering there was no 1.4 series of kernels. It went straight from 1.3 to 2.0, and that invalidates everything you say, moron.

Ban the Cowards! (1)

gavinhall (33) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030817)

Posted by Mephie:

So all the people who wish to be anonymous would just choose an account that many people can use, such as cypherpunks. Then you would demand "BAN CYPHERPUNK!!!" and they would just make another account. It's just way too much trouble.

I for one... (1)

MarkX (716) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030819) very sad to see the Harmony project die. I followed the mailing list for a long time. I wish I had the time and the know how to work on the project. Today is a sad day.

They don't. (1)

Craig (839) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030820)

I count myself a KDE person (as a spectator sport, anyway). These flamers are not "KDE people," they're just adolescent imbeciles.

Personally, when I have time and bandwidth and the GNOME library situation is straightened out (I understand it's much better now), I plan to get it, play with it, and make whatever constructive criticism/contribution I can -- as I do now with KDE.

Competition and choice are good things. These children are simply confused by their hormones, and would flame over shoe sizes ....


Use GPK if you wish (1)

jabbo (860) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030821)

you'll have to dig a bit, and it's alpha, etc. etc., but someone has of course cooked up a way to use GTK in multithreaded applications.

I have it lying around *somewhere*, unfortunately I'm dorking out with Perl and Java and databases instead of doing any real programming so I can't comment on whether it works well.

Rest in peace... (1)

Ami Ganguli (921) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030822)

The only reason it started was to encourage acceptance of KDE. Between Trolls kind-of-open license and GTK+, the project doesn't need to continue.

Ban the Cowards! (1)

TedC (967) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030823)

You're right Pez. I mostly lurk nowdays because a) I'm too busy to post, and b) half of the posts are just crap. Slashdot is becoming a home for the socially challenged and clueless. Back about a year ago /. was cool, and there were some interesting threads, and people exchanged some good ideas. Lately it's been more like IRC.


PS. KDE 1.1 looks pretty cool; I like the Mac menubars.

That's just plain not true. (1)

hawk (1151) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030824)

Unless KDE took GPL source from somewhere else, this just plain isn't true.

The authors released the code which inherently had to link to GPL-incompatible code. That means that KDE is not GPL, no matter how many times anyone calls it GPL--including the authors.

The action of releasing it with that dependency changes the license. This is very basic law; getting it wrong would fail a contract exam in law school or on the bar exam. The law doesn't tolerate absurdity, and holding the authors to violate their own license would be so. Like LyX, KDE is quasi-GPL, not GPL.

But then, it was undisputed for 612 years, 1386-1998, that perjury was not only impeachable, but one of the most serious impeachable offenses, and there's folks that are suddenly claiming it isn't

hawk, esq., who isn't sure why he bothers.

Ban the Cowards! (1)

James Kachel (1176) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030826)

Bump the level up one. Usually the crap doesn't get a rating. Isn't that why it's there?

Threading is overrated (1)

X (1235) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030827)

Actually, you coudln't be more wrong. Most PC's today have processors which can easily outrun the I/O subsystems to which they are attached. Multithreading allows the CPU to continue to work on other tasks while it waits for the I/O systems to get back to it. Sure, multi-processing does this too, but multi-threading can be the more correct approach in many situations.

Your point about threads vs. multi-threading is quite correct. This is because a Unix process is essentialy a thread with it's own memory address space. As I said before, this can be a great way to get the job done in many situations, but it's not always appropriate.

Multi-threaded X servers are out there.... (1)

X (1235) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030828)

Actually, the guys who developed SML/NJ made a multi-threaded version of the language. As I recall, they developed a multi-threaded X/Server as a demonstration app.

In general, you have to keep in mind a few things: threads have only become a standard part of Linux since glibc2 was adopted (some say that process is still ongoing ;-), Linux threads still have some annoying limitations and aren't 100% posix compliant, XFree86 designs their server to run on a plethora of OS's, some of which I suspect either lack threads or have non-standard thread models.

Too bad.. (1)

Daniel (1678) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030829)

Huh? I love GTK+, but I was under the impression that it was virtually guaranteed to go up in flames if you used it in a multithreaded way..


Well I use GNOME... but it's (not) slow as fsck (1)

Jeff Licquia (2167) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030833)

Not for me. And I run on a slower system than you: a P133, 64MB RAM. I use Enlightenment, have two panels, and lots of applets. I've run StarOffice and Netscape at the same time as well, and not felt too bad - although I wouldn't recommend playing MP3s at the same time unless you have a Rio. :-)

Part of it is tuning. I've found that sound support is a CPU hog. But, one click in the control center and that's no longer a problem.

I've also got it on my laptops: a P90, 16MB RAM, and a 486/66, 16MB RAM. You definitely feel the lag, but it's still usable.

(Once, for a demo at a users' group meeting, I had both KDE and GNOME running on separate X sessions on the 486 laptop. If you want to know lag, that's one good way to get real familiar with it. :-)

RIP (1)

Candy (2257) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030834)

I fully agree to cease that project.

Heheheh... (1)

Rendus (2430) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030835)

I just bumped up the threshold to 1, and there were a total of 5 comments. Just one of which was a reply...

Heheheh... (1)

Rendus (2430) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030836)

Yeah, but the opinions were somewhat more well founded. *Shrug* I don't have anything better to do than read through all the comments though, so...

libart proprietary? RedHat? Haha! (1)

raph (3148) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030838)

Just to interject a bit of fact here, libart is definitely not proprietary, nor does it belong in any way to RedHat (though I do realize that the R and H in my name might be confusing :).

In point of fact, I've been in e-mail communication with Roberto Alsina, a KDE developer, about the possbility of using libart to make an antialiased version of Qt's QPaint widget. Since the current libart is entirely LGPL, there are no licensing problems. I personally would love to see this happen. The more wins for libart, the better chance I have making some money licensing libart into the commercial world.

Mozilla (1)

Chris Siegler (3170) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030839)

Mozilla is using gtk+ with threading enabled, and have been for a couple months now.

Of course, Mozilla (SeaMonkey, Gecko, ... whatever) isn't a very stable creature at the moment, but I don't think that's the fault of GTK.

Harmony Dead For a While (1)

dvdeug (5033) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030841)

If you watched the Harmony lists, Harmony was effectively dead in the water the day QT declared the next version would be Open Source. Any one who cared about making an original toolkit was working on GTK or their own. The people working on Harmony wanted an open source version of QT. They have that. Why would they continue?

If you really care about this, the source is listed on the page. Take it and continue.

What is the Harmony Project? (1)

drig (5119) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030842)

The KDE project uses a widget library called Qt. It provided stuff like buttons, scrollbars, text
areas, etc. Qt is made by a company named Troll Tech. For a while, Qt wasn't Open Source. This caused a lot of problems in the Linux community because KDE, which was to be the standard desktop, was using a proprietary toolkit. Harmony was started to rewrite Qt as Open Source. Since the, Troll Tech has made a new liscense which most people accept as Open Source. So, you can understand why the Harmony project is dead.

What is the Harmony Project? (1)

httptech (5553) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030843)

The Harmony Project was a coordinated effort to get all the Linux users in the world to sing a single note on New Year's Eve 1999 at midnight UTC, thus ringing in the year 2000 in "Harmony".

Everyone was also supposed to stand facing Redmond Washington, so the effective resonance of the millions of voices would cause Microsoft's office
windows to shatter.

However, no one in the Linux community could agree on which note to sing, so the project was abandoned.

No multithreaded server...YET! (1)

Nemesys (6004) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030844)

Wouldn't multithreading force one to violate the X protocol?

You Gnome people make me laugh ... (1)

Des Herriott (6508) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030845)

Speaking as someone who uses KDE rather than GNOME (for the moment anyway), I'd have to say that you're a bit of a fucking moron, if you'll excuse the language.

Idiots like you should climb back under your bridges and go play with your Windows boxes.

Well I use GNOME... but it's slow as fuck (1)

JungleBoy (7578) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030846)

GNOME was fast when it was still using gtk+ 1.0 but now gtk+ 1.1 is ssssoooooooo ssslllloooowwww. It's painful for me to use, I thought kde was slow at first then I tried a .99.x series gnome. AAARRRGGHHH, and enlightenment is slow to, it was nice and usable in the 0.13 days. My machine is not too slow, a Pent 150 with 128MB Ram. But nooooo everyone has to go develop software for these Pentium XXIs running at 87 Kagillion megahertz. Anyway, enough of that. I'll switch to gnome when a) it gets faster or b) I get a new computer.


Why all this GNOME vs KDE...?? (1)

B5Ghost (7818) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030847)

There times I just don't understand why these flame exist. I personally tried:

1) fvwm
2) fvwm2
3) fvwm95
4) icewm
5) olvwm
6) twm
7) ctwm
8) wm2
9) amiwm
10) AfterStep
11) Window Maker
12) Enlightenment
13) KDE
14) mlvwm
15) blackbox
16) others cannot remember...

Sorry, never try GNOME.

My conclusion is: Just choose what YOU like!
window managers for Linux (or any other UN*X) are just an "interface" to the OS. If worry something is not free, just switch when they start charging. :P

ps: Currently been using Window Maker.

5-6 million !! (1)

Macka (9388) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030848)

According to the estimate, quoted in the KDE 1.1pre2 announcement, about 5-6 million users!

So eat that, Mr Twisted ACer !!

Who cares about KDE (1)

ElCabron (10718) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030850)

Let's stop the name calling and get realistic. My girlfriend, who used to exclusively use windows, now likes linux better because of the ease of KDE combined with the stability of linux. She would never even considered linux had it not been for KDE's sweet graphical interface. I'm sure there are many like her. As for me, I like KDE and Enlightenment, and what I've seen so far of GNOME, I like that too. Just because you like one doesn't mean you have to hate the other.

boo (1)

Captain Pillbug (12523) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030851)

This'll probably make the QPL-GPL debate even more rabid. Of course OS never truly dies...

KDE using GTK (1)

Deven (13090) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030852)

KDE is usefull and good, it could easily be made with GTK

If KDE could use GTK instead of QT "easily", why don't they? Then they wouldn't have to deal with the QT controversies. Somehow I doubt it's that simple.

Wow. Was there anything true in there at ALL? (1)

st. augustine (14437) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030854)

That's pretty damned funny.

Get out of town! (1)

phred (14852) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030855)

"high quality software can't be produced without commercial backing"

This is so stupid it made me laugh!

No multithreaded server...YET! (1)

JamesHenstridge (14875) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030856)

You can do multithreading with both threads accessing the server simultaneously if you code the program correctly. You would need to create the X connection AFTER spawning the threads.

Then you just have to make sure that each thread uses its own X connection. Of course this would be a lot easier if this was handled by a widget library.

Libart is GPL/LGPL (1)

JamesHenstridge (14875) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030857)

libart is not proprietary. You can get its source off the GNOME CVS server. There is an LGPL portion that is included with gnome-libs (for the antialiased canvas) that can be used by anyone, and a GPL'd portion that can be used only by GPL'd programs.

The author (Raph) also licences it commercially for people who don't want the restrictions on the GPL portion (this is how he makes a living -- similar to the ghostscript author). What is wrong with this?

Threading is overrated.. NOT! (1)

tobiz (15954) | more than 15 years ago | (#2030861)

So that's why many X apps hang! I've noticed this on Netscape and recently on Filerunner and others. In all cases if the comms takes some time, which it can over a modem link, the whole app will hang. It gives rise to the nasty behaviour that when you switch back from another screen the original app window is blank! Yuk!
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