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Sun and Eclipse Squabble

michael posted more than 10 years ago | from the quit-blocking-my-light dept.

Sun Microsystems 423

gbjbaanb writes "CNET news is reporting on a potential spat between Sun and Eclipse: 'Sun Microsystems has sent a letter to members of Eclipse, urging the increasingly influential open-source project to unify rather than fragment the Java-based development tool market.' Although Sun's letter says it wants interoperability, and a 'broad base' for java tools, it then insists Eclipse should push to be a 'unifying force for Java technology'. Competing tools is a good thing, but it sounds like Sun just wants everything to work its way."

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FP again (-1, Flamebait)

LCookie (685814) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142581)

:) FirstPost rules!

Re:FP again (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142615)

public static void printArray (int[] thisArray)
{
if(thisArray.length == 0)
{
System.out.println("Array is empty. Cannot print an empty array.");
}
else
{
System.out.println("The Array Looks Like");
System.out.println("================");
for (int i=0; i < thisArray.length; i++)
{
System.out.println(thisArray[i]);
}
}
}

Re:FP again (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142625)

ROOFLE, obfuscated code is t3h hotness. So, what does it do? It's too fucking obfuscated for me to tell. Oh, that's right, it doesn't do shit. Because it's Java.

Eclipse will take out Sun (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142582)

But it will be short-lived... maybe only a few minutes. Then Sun will be back.

MOD HIM UP (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142633)

... you fucking nazi moderators!

It's funny.

slashdot.org announces new ASCII-MODERATION (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142833)

. _ .teh _ . _ sp . _ .okete hspoke
_ . t e _ . _ hsp ok . e _ . te _ . _ h
. _ . s _ . _po . _ke .t _ . e _ . _ .h _ . _ s . _ .poke _t .ehspok
_ . _ e . _ .t _ . _eh spok .etehsp _ o . _ .kete _ .h _s .p _o
ketehs p . _ .o _ . _ k e . _ t . _ .ehspo _ ke . t _ e .h _s .p
_ . _ o . _ .k _ . _ e t . _ e . _ . h _ . _s . _po .kete _h .s
_ . _ p . _ .o _ . _ke t . _ e . _ . h _ . _s . _po .k _ . e _t . _e
. _hspoket . ehspoket _e . _ h . _ . _spok . etehs _ p . _ o . kete

Re:Eclipse will take out Sun (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142953)

While it's at it, grab a Corona.

First (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142584)

First

first post (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142585)

squabble ny nobble!

I FAIL IT!! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142586)

omg i set yuo up teh faliure!!

FP! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142588)

Everything under the sun is in tune, but the Sun is eclipsed by the moon.

I think it's more accurate to say (0)

RLiegh (247921) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142674)

that the sun is mooned by eclipse.

OMG SUN IS ON TEH SPOKE!! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142591)

Is it good or is it whack?

Re:OMG SUN IS ON TEH SPOKE!! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142657)

spoke is alwehs G00d!

let's see sun invents java, ibm, makes a tool ... (5, Insightful)

ikeee (689351) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142592)

Who in the sane mind would ask such a thing... Come on, wasn't java supposed to be write once run everywhere..., So how on earth multiple IDEs are going to cause problem...

Re:let's see sun invents java, ibm, makes a tool . (4, Funny)

spacecowboy420 (450426) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142727)

Because eclipse is taking revenue from the over priced bloatware jbuilder and Sun studio.It's bad [eclipse] because it's free. I thought darl showed us all that this is clearly unconstitutional - there is no profit motive - it's unAmerican damnit - only a monopoly can truly bring us together
- /sarcasm

Re:let's see sun invents java, ibm, makes a tool . (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142760)

Sun has a free IDE and IBM has a over-priced version of Eclipse as well, so that argument cancels itself out.

Re:let's see sun invents java, ibm, makes a tool . (1)

spacecowboy420 (450426) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142900)

sarcasm ac, notice the Darl reference? I wasn't trying to win a debate - There is no good reason not to have multiple ides, just being the devil's advocate. It's all in good fun. I was essentially agreeing with the parent.

Re:let's see sun invents java, ibm, makes a tool . (3, Funny)

kfg (145172) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142994)

Perhaps you were being too subtle. Next time slip on a banana peel at the end. That might do the trick.

KFG

Re:let's see sun invents java, ibm, makes a tool . (4, Insightful)

MidKnight (19766) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142819)

Who in the sane mind would ask such a thing...

A sane company who's trying to beat everyone's favorite convicted monopolist [microsoft.com] at gathering developers around their campfire for the next big platform of application development (i.e. this Internet thing). Can you name more than 3 IDE's for Windows development? No fair using Google....

What I'm saying is that I think that Sun wants to have "... all the wood behind one arrowhead " when Java & .NET start really competing for developer mindshare. And yes, I'm sure that will happen soon. Is that so difficult to see?

Anyway, my prediction is that IBM will have a good laugh about this whole thing. They'll ignore it, continue to make gobs of $$$ off of their services division, and not worry about fighting Microsoft directly. It's worked well for them for 20 years... why stop now?

--Mid

Re:let's see sun invents java, ibm, makes a tool . (-1)

TheJesusCandle (558547) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142932)

3 ide's :
too easy
DevStudio, Borland Builder, Code Warrior, watcom crap, etc.

Ide's are nice, but it's just a pretty window infront of your compiler. Dont forget the real issue at hand, it's the specifics of the language and it's implimentation, not the IDE.

Re:let's see sun invents java, ibm, makes a tool . (1)

ads.osdn.com.blocked (735166) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142911)

Java is closer to WORA than any other platform is or has been. Including .Not . If you are careful, a good developer can write portable enterprise-level code, and if non-portable code isolated properly with good documentation, and IF there is clear separation of tiers / responsibilities, portability can be and is possible. With a small effort. J2EE is specced clearly to allow your apps to be portable, but in reality some proprietary glue is necessary. If, however, a designer is not careful, then he/she may just get locked in to a vendor. But is that Java's fault??? I don't think so pal. If, however, the ultimate goal for any project is total WORA, then you're crippling yourself with unreasonable and unnnecessary demands. But to criticise (and you sound like you've never been anywhere near a production quality J2EE project) comments like yours are simple ignorance. Bucko.

Re:let's see sun invents java, ibm, makes a tool (3, Interesting)

beh (4759) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142931)

It's easy for multiple IDEs to cause problems...

Some form of unification wouldn't be all that bad - but unification should not be misread as "only one IDE".

As much as Sun created a "the same bytecode runs on all platforms" - and the much the same, that XML data is portable between platforms - exactly the same way we would need some unification in the "project properties" files. If you really WANT competition to happen, what we need is a way, that the same project can be opened with a number of IDEs, but before that can happen, we need a good way of doing this. Otherwise we will end up in a situation, where either whole teams need to decide which tool to use (so that the project metadata can be used by all) or there will be a semipermanent importing of projects/project data whenever the structure of the project got changed (e.g. during refactoring) by someone using a DIFFERENT IDE.

(Actually - I would even wish for SOME unification WITHIN eclipse; e.g. with all those DB plugins, wouldn't it be nice, if there was a SINGLE DB-Connection-Manager plugin, which would you would configure for all your DB connections, and other DB plugins would just query that single plugin for the known DB connections and prompt the user which connection to use? -- To ME this sounds a lot better, than to enter the DB configuration [JARs+JDBC URLS+Username+possibly passwords] into EACH DB Plugin (Azurri, DBEdit, ...).

Don't get me wrong, Eclipse has easily managed to "eclipse" XEmacs as my primary IDE (and I've used (X)Emacs as my primary IDE for more than 10 years with no serious contender to its throne). But eclipse definetely has SOME quirks that could use some cleaning up work.

Benedikt

A lesson from Microsoft (2, Informative)

Billly Gates (198444) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142593)

.. those who set and standards decide for users what they want and pull the strings.

Opensource is the opposite of this. I would be pissed too if I were Sun. How can we sell Forte for $2000 and give java away for free to sell more copies of forte?

It goes agaisnt their business model and Java is the only thing keeping them afloat since their hardware sales are losing to wintel/lintel.

Re:A lesson from Microsoft (5, Interesting)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142613)

You don't know what you're talking about. Sun gives away [netbeans.org] Forte for Java under an Open Source branding (think Mozilla/Netscape). The real reasons for this squabble go back to '01 when IBM released Eclipse after inviting every company except Sun to join the project. At the time, Netbeans/Forte was very mature and would have been a good choice for IBM to build their own platform off of. Instead, they named their product as a way of snubbing Sun, and used their own proprietary GUI API so the two projects could never interoperate.

Re:A lesson from Microsoft (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142629)

and used their own proprietary GUI API so the two projects could never interoperate.

And thank goodness they don't. Sun's dev environment is slow, unwieldy, and generally a nuisance to use. As an end user I'm grateful for the Eclipse project.

Re:A lesson from Microsoft (2, Informative)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142642)

And thank goodness they don't. Sun's dev environment is slow, unwieldy, and generally a nuisance to use. As an end user I'm grateful for the Eclipse project.

Hardly. Netbeans just does more than Eclipse by default. As a result it hogs tons of memory. (Not a big deal on developer machines with 512 MB.) Eclipse is quickly matching Netbeans' bloat as more and more features are added.

Re:A lesson from Microsoft (2, Insightful)

ProtonMotiveForce (267027) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142756)

That's simply not true. Eclipse is fast precisely because of IBM's GUI. I don't care if you have 1G of memory, Eclipse is very usable and some people only learn after using for a long time that it's written in Java.

NetBeans is dead, Sun needs to deal with it.

[And yes, I've used both, though I admit I haven't touched NetBeans for like a year and a half.]

Re:A lesson from Microsoft (2, Insightful)

Awptimus Prime (695459) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142797)

(Not a big deal on developer machines with 512 MB.)

512MB is for grandma's E-machine. Give me 2 gigs for a dev box any day.

Re:A lesson from Microsoft (2, Insightful)

TheLittleJetson (669035) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142712)

yeah, i'd have to take sun's side on this one. i use netbeans and have for quite some time. eclipse has some really cool stuff in it (refactoring!), but let's be serious... if all that work was put into netbeans/forte, it would be one hell of an IDE.

in general just think this sort of competition is counter-productive in this type of setting. competition is useful in driving innovation, but in an open-source system, if the end users are pissed off about slow progress or missing features, they can always contribute to the development effort. after all, isn't that sorta the whole idea of this thing?

Re:A lesson from Microsoft (3, Insightful)

Tailhook (98486) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142805)

You don't know what you're talking about. Sun gives away [netbeans.org] Forte for Java under an Open Source branding (think Mozilla/Netscape). The real reason for this squabble... ...is because Eclipse is an order of magnitude better than Forte. Sun wants to use it's clout to get some control over it, and who can blame them? You were doing fine right up until there.

It requires very little effort to identify the reasons why Eclipse is better than Forte. Any fool can see this, so I won't waste time on it.

[IBM] used their own proprietary GUI API so the two projects could never interoperate.

They created an entirely new GUI API because Swing sucks. A better GUI for Java was desperately needed. Swing does not approach the results of a native GUI application, while SWT does. The SWT GUI in Eclipse is better than the GUI provided by the native OS in most cases.

Eclipse and Forte aren't even in the same ballpark. The phrase "universal tools platform" actually means something with Eclipse.

The battle is over. Eclipse won. The result isn't due to some IBM conspiracy against Sun. It's due to Eclipse being a better product.

they named their product as a way of snubbing Sun

The character of your rival says much about you. Sun and IBM are competing rivals. Nothing more ugly than that. It's a credit to Sun than IBM should name their work in such a way. It's Sun's job to remain worthy of that credit.

Re:A lesson from Microsoft (2, Informative)

gtshafted (580114) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142875)

"At the time, Netbeans/Forte was very mature and would have been a good choice for IBM to build their own platform off of"

This is not true. You obviously haven't used Netbeans or Eclipse, since there is a huge difference between both. Netbeans is built on top of Swing. Theoretically, Swing is a really nice GUI library that is very flexible. In the real world, Swing made Netbeans too slow to be usable, not to mention the metal UI made it look ugly too. SWT, the GUI library Eclipse uses, doesn't have all the bells and whistles Swing has - but it doesn't have Swing's horrible overhead and nasty look either. IBM made the right choice and the community agrees. Besides after next week, Ecipse will be an independent body from IBM. So it's Sun's fault if it doesn't want to join.

Sun is also smoking a lot of crack if it thinks the community would rather use a piece of crap like netbeans instead of eclipse.

Re:A lesson from Microsoft (1)

jbplou (732414) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142729)

Java is the only thing keeping them afloat since their hardware sales are losing to wintel/lintel.

Where did you get this info. I've seen there finicial reports and Java business does not even make up 50% of their earnings or revenue. You just said this because you don't like their servers and OS so you assume no one else does.

Re:A lesson from Microsoft (1)

Usagi_yo (648836) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142963)

Funny, I got my forte for free. I just can't make a commercial application with it and sell it and not pay anything for the tool. But I can play with and learn with it all I want.

Is your problem that forte isn't for free for people developing commercial applications with it?

java technology. what's it all about? (1, Interesting)

RLiegh (247921) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142594)

What is (and was) Suns' stance on gjc, speaking of open source java implementations?

At any rate, even if they fall out with Eclipse, there are other java implementations (eg: gjc) that are Free Software aren't there?

Re:java technology. what's it all about? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142611)

If you read slashdot [slashdot.org] , maybe you'd know the answer to your first question.

READ and THEN post. Is that so much to ask?

Re:java technology. what's it all about? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142634)

Asshole. A Benchmark done by some random guy does not indicate Sun's stance on the issue.

As usual... (3, Informative)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142595)

...Slashdot is days late on the scoop. The Java community has already figured out [javalobby.org] that this is business as usual between Sun and IBM.

Re:As usual... (1)

CommanderTaco (85921) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142664)

days late? the article you point to was posted all of 12 hours ago...

what can you do? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142596)

i mean look, they took on Microsoft because of discrepencies between what MS was putting out and calling Java and what Sun was putting out and calling Java. It's better when everyone agrees on certain things.
-AGS

Sun is suffering... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142604)

..a total Eclipse of the heart.

Faith in Sun.... (1, Insightful)

Khakionion (544166) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142605)

Sun just wants everything to work its way
...That is, not at all. I'm sorry, but after six months of administrating a Solaris network, I'm fucking fed up. Sun makes non-interoperable, non-compliant shit, and Java's the only product they've had that's come close to being a useful product. IMO, it has, but fuck the rest of Sun.

Java... (3, Insightful)

gnuman99 (746007) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142606)

Maybe if Sun actually released the source to Java under a free license, maybe, just maybe, people might improve it and use it.

Re:Java... (1)

Khakionion (544166) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142616)

I don't think that'd really help. After all, they want to force people into their way of thinking now, why would they accept any changes to Java that someone made that didn't mesh with Sun's current plan for the growth of Java?

Re:Java... (1)

haystor (102186) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142701)

If they released it under an open source license, it would immediately be changed into a non-compatible version that would correct the mistakes originally made in Java. This version would be wildly popular except with people that like to type lots of bullshit code because it makes them feel good.

Re:Java... (1)

Khakionion (544166) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142709)

...I don't know if you're disagreeing with me or not...

I think that the OFFICIAL Java implementation that Sun would have the final change-implementing authority over wouldn't be changed qualitatively due to their strongly imbued sense of "our way or the highway."

Any "unofficial" version wouldn't really be Java, so whether it's good or not is a moot point.

Re:Java... (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142757)

I completely agree
-- Bill Gates

Re:Java... (5, Interesting)

Mysteray (713473) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142726)

Gnuman99:
Maybe if Sun actually released the source to Java under a free license, maybe, just maybe, people might improve it and use it.
Khakionion:
After all, they want to force people into their way of thinking now, why would they accept any changes to Java that someone made that didn't mesh with Sun's current plan for the growth of Java?

They wouldn't have to accept any changes they didn't like. They could still enforce exactly what they wanted with the Java trademark. They could put the source in the public domain with the simple stipulation that non-strictly-compliant implementations couldn't be called Java(tm).

Not having it free software certainly didn't slow Microsoft down one bit from extending it without their approval. In fact, the result was a freshly-designed competitor (C#/.Net).

They don't even seem to be making a profit on the language itself, why this obsessive desire to control it with an iron fist?

As for the people-might-use-it question, it would certainly make all the difference to this developer. I know there are free Java implementations, but until I see a solid crossplatform GUI kit, I'll probably continue to look elsewhere.

Well... (0, Offtopic)

xenostar (746407) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142607)

Java is their baby after all.

Eclipse will almost win.. (-1, Flamebait)

Aliencow (653119) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142609)

Then at the middle of the fight, Sun will come back and kicks its butt out of here..

Re:Eclipse will almost win.. (1)

Aliencow (653119) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142690)

Someone didn't get the pun?

Don't mod after 18 beers please..

Im sory! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142710)

-- michael

Re:Eclipse will almost win.. (0)

lamery (598414) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142803)

NOT FUNNY

I don't think it's so nefarious. (5, Insightful)

sQuEeDeN (565589) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142617)

I don't think it's as bad as the poster implies. Let's look at the facts:

1: Sun develops Java. We all owe them for that. Let's face it. Love it or hate it, Sun has created a widely used language. They control what goes into the language.

2: Eclipse, as a development platform, is gaining ground all the time. Great. I'm all for diversity.

But, Sun's position is understandable. The presence of programming tools, in this corporate climate, can make or break a language. It seems like sun, more or less, is looking to have a more formal place in Eclipse's management. Conspiracy theories, of course, are abound.... except,
JAVA IS SUN'S LANGUAGE. Imagine, if Sun had more a voice in eclipse development, think of what is possible!!! What a concept? The language developers and the IDE developers working togeter?

Sorry for my smart-assed comments. What my point is, this has just as much potential to be a good thing for Eclipse. Sun is certainly capable of providing constructive agreement, and the Eclipse foundation doesn't actually need to listen to Sun. I just think that there's a lot of potential for cooperation.

Re:I don't think it's so nefarious. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142662)

Ah, BUT: It sorry for my smare abound.... except, just as much point is, theories, of conspiracy to listential for coopers and the Is created a widely point is looking tools, this corporate climat the presn't actually capable of platform, is gaining ground mor Eclipse. Sun's language. Into the language developerationcept, java is sun's a lot of providing constrol what good thing for Eclimate, can make of providing conspiracy think of what is possible!!! Whate climplies. What my poing togeter? Sorry formal place a good thing toge. They contructive aground all the time. Great. I'm all for don't to listen think think of what goes into theories, of coursity. But, Sun develops Java. We all owe thement. Conspiracy the time. Great.

+5 INSIGHTFUL!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142767)

Re:I don't think it's so nefarious. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142675)

Yeah, because NetBeans is sooooooo cool we shouldn't even care about Eclipse.

Re:I don't think it's so nefarious. (3, Insightful)

robbyjo (315601) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142711)

No, they want more influence that IMHO rather over-reaching. This paragraph show it:

The question is significant because Sun and other tools vendors want to ensure that a system for creating tool plug-ins can coexist with the Eclipse approach, which IBM favors. Large Java companies and Microsoft encourage add-ons to their products to make their tools more attractive to developers.

So, what Sun essentially wants is to have unified plugin system -- which I think it should be up to any IDE developer on how to do it rather than forcing the plugin standard. Sun sees Eclipse as a prospective unifier.

I speculate that this would have something to do with the Java beans -- which was designed to be the definitive plugin standard for Java IDEs. Unfortunately, Java beans are so poorly designed that all developers would need to extend the basic features by a whole lot. Eclipse did that and succeeded. Morever, hordes of open source programmer backed it up and become de facto standard.

What I see is that Sun wanted to get the momentum to recoup the control it has lost.

Re:I don't think it's so nefarious. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142717)

The end game is proprietary Vs. Free software and the latter will win, it's just a matter of when (20 years?). All Sun can do is prolong the middle game long enough to transition towards Free software.

Re:I don't think it's so nefarious. (2, Insightful)

Dukael_Mikakis (686324) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142752)

You're right, love it or hate it, Java is the brainchild of Sun, but (legitimately) part of the whole slashdot/software community is that a programming language is something that shouldn't be contained, or made propietary. Java is certainly greatly derived from C++ (its successes and its failures, yes), which was "owned" (perhaps not so strongly) by Bell labs. Yeah, Sun can control the JDKs and the packages (swing, whatever), but I could write up a useful package, throw it on the web and, what do you know, I've put something into Java, which Sun hasn't.

Does Sun have the inside track? Perhaps, because they developed it, and they likely know pretty well the workings of the language, but remember that Sun is a business too, and they want everybody to know all of the features. That's how they sell their other Java products. The more developers know about the features of the language, the more they want to use Java, and subsequently use Sun's java products. It is, actually, probably to Sun's advantage for us to know everything (good) about Java.

But then here's when we find the dilemma that is mentioned at the end of the post. Sun wants us all to know about Java and how great it is so we'll use it, but then the more everybody knows about Java the easier it is for them to supercede Sun's authority and build their own tools/packages/whatever because a programming language involves not tangible product. It's not like a car where you can advertise all of the features and and functions and not give a damn because a great number of your consumers couldn't do anything with the information, and it'd end up being too costly/difficult/whatever to reproduce the product. Developers are essentially the only people that use java (for coding) and they are capable of doing what Sun does at no cost, essentially.

Sure, this freaks Sun out, but I think they should just let everybody do what they will with Java (the free market will determine what works and what doesn't) and keep benefiting from Java's popularity. If Sun tries to proprieterize Java (I don't know how), anoth Java-like language will just come by and Sun's out of luck. Java won't last forever.

Competition will be better in the long run... (2, Insightful)

UpLateDrinkingCoffee (605179) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142644)

I have to say I'm glad there are competing groups. I'm sure Sun would love to roll eclipse into their community process, but by and large that has tended to produce some bloated standards IMHO.

I'm just happy there is a real alternative to JBuilder now... don't get me wrong, I love JBuilder but there is no way I could afford it at the prices they are charging.

fuck you, you stupid motherfucking prick (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142649)

See above for message. Oh, and I like JBuilder, too.

Re:Competition will be better in the long run... (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142702)

I think people are missing the point. Java is all about interoperability. Look at J2SE and J2EE platforms... code that is written to a spec can be deployed on any vendor's application server that adheres to that spec... ect. So, why should Java development tools still be proprietary? Thats what Sun is saying. Lets agree on specs like everything else we do. If Joe Hotdog writes a neat plugin for eclipse, it should work in all the other IDE's too. Nobody gives Sun credit for creating a great language and most importantly an open, competitive market.

Come on. (4, Insightful)

Zebra_X (13249) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142648)

Sun - Shit or get off the pot.

Honestly, Sun has been a perpetual source of sub-standard implementations of their own technologies for almost 10 years. What is the most trusted Java JVM for Linux or BSD systems? IBM JVM 1.3.1 "Black down". Increasingly this is no longer the case, as sun continues to revise the Java API faster than a decent implementation can be produced. I ask, Sun wants their net beans IDE to be "The One". Why?

It's not as if they have done a great job implementing their own technologies in the past. In fact Sun is responsible for a day to day lack of leadership of the Java Platform as a whole. Take for example the great mess of XSLT and XML parsers. Sun's "reference implementations" of such things are infamous in the developer community. Incomplete implementations and low performance drive developers to find other tools, which may or may not do things the way that sun wants - more importantly it creates an environment where developers must use different tools to get the same job done, creating incompatibility and complexity in an environment that carries compatibility as a flag of independence.

IBM has finally rallied around the notion of Linux and Java as a common platform - and Sun in usual fashion tries to "gain control". I ask the community what has Sun's control *REALLY* gotten us besides a mess of different API's, frameworks and "reference implementations".

Re:Come on. (2, Funny)

Khakionion (544166) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142661)

I ask the community what has Sun's control *REALLY* gotten us
It's getting me out of class on Tuesday afternoon to see the Launch Event Webcast of the Sun Java Desktop System...

...which will promptly fail, probably, because its LDAP client will need FUCKING PATCHING RIGHT OUT OF THE GOD DAMNED BOX...

...I mean, it's going to be released non-compliant and b0rked, like Sol8 and Sol9 were.

What does Sun have to do with Java? (0, Offtopic)

kidventus (649548) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142651)

Aren't they a has-been workstation maker that lost coolness to Apple OSX and wide spread use to Linux? Poor guys... they never made any money off this thing.. just like parents thinking they know what's best for their child, it's moved out and has lots of friends and never calls home. "It's bigger... bigger than you and you are not me" - REM

Re:What does Sun have to do with Java? (2, Interesting)

Kruid (646582) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142766)

okay kids,
"has-been workstation" ?

get real. I have os x, and I use Sun systems everyday - no comparison. it's makes me gag, to read you making such a simplistic and ignorant comparison. os x can't touch solaris/sparc - sorry game over,that's life. when os x can handle 70+ CPUs in ONE system - give me a call. Otherwise, take your little no experience skinny 14 year old ass back to the farm.

Re:What does Sun have to do with Java? (0, Offtopic)

kidventus (649548) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142910)

* sigh * I said lost coolness, and Linux for widespread use. Don't get me wrong, I imagine with wit as biting as yours you pre-mature ejacultae your insults happens often. To refute the 70+ CPU on one system issue, and even if it is necessary, would be pointless, because all you really wanted do was talk about skinny 14 year old asses with no experience. Is this a slashdot posting or your ad on Match.com?

Re:What does Sun have to do with Java? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142915)

why limit oneself to 'one system' ? xserve +os x + xgrid is a cheaper solution, faster, and an easier solution.

Re:What does Sun have to do with Java? (0)

kidventus (649548) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142974)

I agree, that is what we use. We run Mac OSX on the client side and run Sun and Linux on the backend. It's a great solution since you can x-pop windows and basically talk *NIX to *NIX

Eclipse invited Sun... (5, Interesting)

The boojum (70419) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142658)

I find this interesting, considering that, not too long ago, the Eclipse consortium offered to join with Sun (and even change to a less threatening name if need be). Sun however, turned them down. [slashdot.org]

Personally, I like the direction that Eclipse is going. I tried Forte once and it just didn't feel right. Eclipse however, has been fantastic since I found it and started using it as my work IDE. (My whole project team adopted it as well.) It has made coding Java a pleasure as no other IDE (in any language) has, and has led to me using Java as a development language for personal projects where I otherwise would have used C or C++. I've largely given over using XEmacs for coding Java. I'm also impressed by the speed of the Eclipse development cycle with new milestones coming out approximately every month. I always get this kid-in-the-candy-shop feeling checking out the New and Noteworthy page with each new milestone.

my story with slash-dot guys (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142861)

hey guys,

i'm not sure exactly what i'm doing here. so...bear with me!

i clicked "geeky" on my match.com personals profile, thinking that i'd maybe get hooked up with somebody who was into math or some kind of toy train hobby or something...boy howdy was i in for a shock! i went on 4 dates with guys who all got on match.com because of osdn personals from slash-dot! 4 guys!

anyway, it didn't really work out with any of them, because it seemed like they were all under some kind of mind-control robot or something! i was like "what do you think about office? office 97 is enough for me, but there are some things about xp that are cool too...." the first guy i asked that to exploded on this tyrade about how office was evil, and that it uses html that's invalid...blah blah blah, whatever...i figured "ok, this guys a freak, but i'm not giving up that easily." so guy number two and i are having dinner, and just as a test i bring up office, and he says the *exact* *same* *things* the first guy said! it was like he was reading from a script! i'm thinking to myself "is everybody from slash-dot programmed to say the same thing or what?" i decided to do a bit of investigation.

i actually surfed over to slash-dot and read some of the articles...mostly they were pretty boring, and the comments were just like i expected judging from my previous past experience: scripted!!! just when i was about to completely write the whole thing off, i found a post from some guy who's with anti-slash, some kind of anti-slash-dot website. i mailed him and was all "i so agree with you guys, look at what sheap these slash-dot people are!" he wrote back and made some funny comments (funny and so *true*!...that is soooo the best kind of humor...but i dirgress...) and guess what? this weekend i'm supposed to meet him for dinner :) if you're reading this, i look forward to meeting you in person, john!

anyway, that's my story. ladies: if you're looking for the real cool geeks, check out anti-slash [anti-slash.org] . and fellas, you should check it out too and maybe use to to break out of your mind-control suits!

ok see ya later,

cyndi

Re:Eclipse invited Sun... (2, Funny)

vargul (689529) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142916)

I dont get the point. I thought every single javacoder uses emacs+JDE... Are you not?

Oh, well. Another pointless PR ping-pong match. (5, Funny)

crazyphilman (609923) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142663)

Sun (to Eclipse): Hey, knock that crap off!

Eclipse (with exaggerated innocence): Moi? Whatever do you mean?

Sun: You know.

Eclipse: Actually, no, I don't.

Sun: Don't be coy!

Eclipse: YAWN. Do you have something to say or what?

Sun: You know damn well we're working on Swing, and Netbeans, and all that, and here you come out with SWT and start going off on weird tangents, I mean, hell, who's in charge here? I thought you were going to be cool about this.

Eclipse: I am. People really dig java, and they're having a blast using Eclipse to work on it.

Sun: Yeah, thanks a lot, poor Forte...

Eclipse: I didn't tell you to charge so much for it.

Sun: I didn't tell you to be free!

Eclipse: No, that was my idea. But it's cool anyway. Anyway, you've got problems of your own. It's like, make up your mind already.

Sun: What the hell are you talking about???

Eclipse: Java 1.1.8, then Java 1.2, then Java 1.3, then 1.4, and every five minutes you "depreciate" something, driving your developers nuts...

Sun: You... How can you... You...

Eclipse: And then there's AWT, no, it's Swing, no, it's going to be some kind of weird beany scheme...

Sun: You... OOOOH you make me SO MAD! Swing was a good idea! So were the beans!

Eclipse: Well, so's SWT. Deal.

Sun: It's not the same thing!

Eclipse: Sure it is.

Sun: Is not!

Eclipse: Is too!

Sun: Is not!

Eclipse: Is too! Anyway, what's the difference? SWT is based on AWT, so it works everywhere, doesn't it? You should really dig it.

Sun: (Sulks)

Eclipse: Aw, come on, join the board of directors. You know you want to. You can even keep your Netbeans. I promise.

Sun: I'll think about it...

Eclipse: Yep. I know.

Re:Oh, well. Another pointless PR ping-pong match. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142683)

Heh...this is pretty funny. There should be a sitcom based on tech companies...SCO would be like Newman...evil AND stupid...and Sun would be Kramer...he's not really that great, but he's got that one personality trait that keeps him on the show.


Oh, and Microsoft would be Elaine...the hot (but ultimately bitchy) slut getting her fingers in damn near everything she can.

Sun is just pissed (4, Insightful)

Rombuu (22914) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142697)

beacuse SWT is actually a nice cross platform toolkit, while Swing and AWT are horrible festering pieces of crap.

Re:Sun is just pissed (4, Informative)

Dukael_Mikakis (686324) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142765)

Swing and AWT are horrible festering pieces of crap

Maybe not that bad, but not good. We use swing across the board at our company and I can't tell you how hideous each window is. And they look different on every machine. A layout that looks good on my system has buttons cramped in the corner on somebody else's.

And everything runs slow as hell.

Not saying that doing the stuff in C++ would be any easier, but Java's GUI packages are all sorts of shady.

Sun vs. IBM (1, Troll)

midshipman_geek (741181) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142713)

Sun just wants control of the IDE market, that's all. Eclipse should ignore it as if it's not even happening. That's how significant it is.

What's the point? (1, Insightful)

Berrik (632561) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142718)

I personally don't care if Java is in many distros or just one. It's still a bloated memory hogging piece of crap.

Berrik

Re:What's the point? (1)

Dukael_Mikakis (686324) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142773)

In fact many distros might be the only thing to save java. With each release there's more deprecation and more packages and bloat, and it seems clear that Sun is intent on continuing this particular trend. Hey, Sun can do whatever they want, and let developers decide. I'm sure some developers would like the extra garbage collection and all the extra GUI packages with Interface upon Interface ....

If we have companies, like Eclipse, which will streamline the functionality of Java, and cater the look to a certain kind of developer, those people won't be so disgruntled with Sun's java. Lots of developers long for the speedy, free ways of C++ (don't ask me about C#). Well, then maybe somebody will develop a java distro that would be slimmed down and present you with less useless crap (or give you more flexibility to not download it/use it). Would it still be java? Who cares? I'm sure people would use it.

GNOME vs. KDE (1)

oddityfds (138457) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142720)

It's like GNOME vs. KDE. They both do more or less the same thing, but they're still different.

Sun and Eclipse will work together eventually, just like we now have freedesktop.org. Just cut the politics and "the community needs this and that" and keep doing what makes sense technology-wise.

User Interface (5, Insightful)

c_waddington (681862) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142738)

Is it all about Swing vs AWT? I hope not. I think Eclipse is great! But Eclipse got it right and Sun got it wrong. I want my user interface to look like the operating system I'm using (not Java L&F) and I want it to be natively quick. Please compromise Sun - The native approach is better as long as the toolkit can always guarantee to draw the lowest common denominator. That's what Java should be - write once, run everywhere, to the best of individual platforms abilities.

Re:User Interface (1)

c_waddington (681862) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142742)

Sorry typo - I meant SWT rather than AWT

Re:User Interface (1)

yorick (4133) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142759)

The big problem is that the standard Java look and feel is terrible. However, the Windows Look and Feel as well as some of the other alternative ones (particularly the Aqua Look and Feel of the Mac JVM) is just as good. You don't need SWT for that.

Keep Sun out of Eclipse (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142749)

Eclipse is way to valuable to let it get watered down and ruined by Sun.

Sun wants one way of doing Java, and if we did things their way, we would have no options for a good Java IDE or faster widgets, ie SWT.

There's no reason why Sun can't go and do their own thing and let Eclipse do their own thing simultaneously. Sun's worries of fragmenting the community is just FUD.

Jesus. You people really don't get it. (0, Troll)

Saeed al-Sahaf (665390) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142795)

but it sounds like Sun just wants everything to work its way

No, it sounds like Sun has a head that is not up their ass. It sounds like Sun understands that a fragmented Java and a fragmented Open Source are a Microsoft / SCO win. People, pull you heads out of your asses, and get with the program. Don't like the proprietary software model? Support something that can actually bring it down. Otherwise, go home and suck on your mamma's tit.

Re:Jesus. You people really don't get it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142856)

I understand you feel bad at all the effort you put into learning NetBeans going to waste, but you'll get over it with time. And you'll be glad you switched to an IDE with a half decent toolkit.

Eclipse Forte (5, Informative)

agwis (690872) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142823)

I've tried the 2 of them and they both are pretty decent IMHO. The big difference, and I mean big, is how responsive each are on a fairly moderate system. After starting forte, I can go have a coffee and a smoke and maybe even take a quick nap...at which point forte should be running when I get back and I can then get to work.

Eclipse on the other hand is really fast. When I first tried it I couldn't believe that it was a Java program. It even looks good, rather than that ancient, dull look that most Java apps have.

Since then, I've upgraded to a P4 with 1G ram and they both run pretty good (although Eclipse is still much faster). I do like both of them but Sun and IBM and anyone else interested in furthering Java should collaborate on 1 killer IDE that puts any MS tools to shame, and allows lazy programmers (like me!) to be more productive in less time :) As Eclipse appears superior to forte and probably has the largest installed base (don't know how it compares to Jbuilder) Sun would probably get a lot more respect from developers.

-Pat

Working Sun's way.. (1)

Sir Pallas (696783) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142824)

..is better than Java not working in a multitude of different, interesting ways. I mean, do I really need ten implementations a foo that does bar?

Dissenting opinion (2, Interesting)

aeoo (568706) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142869)

I disagree with most people here. I think AWT is better than SWT. Why? Because AWT is equally fast on all platforms. SWT-GTK is dog slow on Linux (and probably any other *nix platform, like FreeBSD).

I repeat.

SWT GTK is unusable under Linux and Eclipse devs do not know what is wrong and cannot fix the bug, even after much screaming on bugzilla!

This shows a clear inferiority of SWT to me. It's not crossplatform in a workable way.

AWT may be ugly, but it works! It may not be the fastest, but it is fast enough on all platforms. IDEA uses Swing and it's fast enough. JEdit using Swing and it is fast enough. Shame on Eclipse's SWT.

Re:Dissenting opinion (4, Insightful)

gtshafted (580114) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142906)

"This shows a clear inferiority of SWT to me."

First, I dont' think it's realistic to cripple a UI's features for crosscompatibility. Second, looks do count or most people wouldn't switch from Swing's nasty ass metal look.

"IDEA uses Swing and it's fast enough. JEdit using Swing and it is fast enough."

The people who use IDEA typically have the money to counteract Swing's slow ass performance (this is a good assumption of someone that drops a couple grand for an IDE). On the other hand, most people like me, do not have the money for a nice rig that costs $3000.

And no, JEdit is not fast enough. That's like saying Netbeans is fast enough. Neither can handle Eclipse's cool coding features on a crappy computer, and neither responds to me faster than I can think (using a crappy under $1000 computer).

"It's not crossplatform in a workable way."

It is, that's why Eclipse is super popular.

Hypocrites (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142874)

So all the non-M$ crowd beat their chests when M$ decide to deviate from the Sun Java standard, and Sun retaliates.

Now Sun is doing the same thing again, and you are all up in arms about.

Hypocrites.

A Company of Dilberts (4, Interesting)

Greyfox (87712) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142880)

I'm beginning to think that Sun's a company of very bright engineering types. Dilbert would only assume that the way he says is doing something is The Right Way. Now imagine if the company was full of Dilberts with not enough PHBs to keep them all in check. I think that's kind of the situation we have with them. They can't understand why everyone else can't see the genius of their solutions. It's just the engineer-with-the-perfect-solution mentality. We all get like that sometimes.

Ha (1, Insightful)

ads.osdn.com.blocked (735166) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142887)

I don't see how you interpret this as a squabble. (apart from fuelling the /. fire). It seems to me Sun is extending the olive branch here. They have no obligation to to do so, but having Sun involved in some way can only help to unite.

Java workers of the world unite!

aut0tr0ll is teh sp0kE!? (-1)

CHECKTHEGOATS (735227) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142905)

Hello master.

sid=94959
formkey=2phfq2o6IO

This is a joint venture that will be mutually advantageous to both parties involved.

Why care about this? (1)

lokedhs (672255) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142930)

I can't help but wonder why people really care about this? NetBeans is a bloated slow piece of crap. JBuilder [borland.com] is a bloated expensive slow piece of crap. Eclipse [eclipse.org] is actually OK. It's the second best out there. The best tool, IDEA [intellij.com] costs money but not very much. There are also a whole other bunch of tools like JEdit [jedit.org] which are not whole IDE's, but good anyway.

In the end, you, as a developer need to figure out what tool you want to use. I think it's great there are so many choices. On the project I'm working with all but one are using IDEA [intellij.com] and the last one uses Eclipse [eclipse.org] . We have no problems at all interoperating. We all use the same source, and the same Apache Ant [apache.org] scripts. So why should we care about this?

Sun Sparcstation IPX question..err..about Eclipse (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142961)

OK so this kind of has nothing to do with the story except it's about a piece of Sun hardware. I have an old Sparcstation IPX that someone gave to me, but I don't have a keyboard, mouse, serial cable, 13W3 monitor cable or ethernet AUI converter. All I have is a power cable. I went to power up the system the other day to see if it was alive, but nothing happened when I flicked the power switch at the back. Does the Sparcstation IPX require that something be plugged into it (like a keyboard, serial console or ethernet cable) before it will power up? Or is my little IPX just dead?

OK I'll try and bring it back on-topic. If I get my IPX working, I'm going to install Java and run Eclipse and see for myself if Sun is being reasonable or not. It should only take a week or two for Eclipse to start up on that 40MHz CPU.

New name for Sun -- indian giver (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142990)


It seems Sun has a problem understanding GPL, and similar Free Software/Open Source Software type licenses and projects today.

Their insistence on control has left them in an increasingly isolated position." "Without IBM, Sun could never have built the success Java has enjoyed. Without Sun, however, the IBM-led Eclipse group has been making great strides.


The new Sun is smarter than that [newsforge.com] . You can trust them


Yeah.

Unix will be back. Really, it will. Customers will return to Solaris one day! After all, if schwartz said it [eweek.com] , it must be true.

Schwartz, however, sees the fad of Linux wearing off in big businesses.

"There will be a transition back to Solaris," he said [theregister.co.uk]


and even scott is a believer:

The "fad will wear off, and big business will come back [techtarget.com] to solaris".


Sun, don't worry, everything is great. Everybody else should wake up and smell the java [newsforge.com]

And I'll trust an enterprise deployment to a company with individual leaders with the brains to make the above statements on the record.

More non-news (0)

ishmalius (153450) | more than 10 years ago | (#8142993)

Why do you guys keep posting this stuff?
Claiming controversy where none exists?

What a beat up! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8142997)

Did anyone actually read the open letter from Sun? I'd hardly call it provocative - a congratulations on incorporation, indication of a need to work together for the benefit of the Java platform and some advice and suggestions. "Potential spat" is about right.. I waiting for the headline "Actual fisticuffs.. photos page three"
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