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326 comments

Gasp! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151013)

You mean people liked the better software more? Shocking.

fp (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151019)

fp
gnaa sucks

mercatur rocks
www.mercatur.net

Yeah, but will it *work*? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151023)

But will it work this time?

Perens LLC (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151026)

Perens LLC
... hmm ... does that mean that Bruce Perens stopped living on other people's money and starts working?

Hahaha, no (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151061)

It just means he has some legal protections now.

Re:Perens LLC (5, Informative)

_Pinky_ (75643) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151139)

I'm just guessing all this animosity toward Bruce is done without the recollection of how much he has given back to the opensource community...
  • He co-founded the Open Source Initiative with ESR..
  • He was a primary author of the Debian Social Contract..
  • He helped introduce Linux into the main stream corporate world by being a Linux proponent at HP.
  • He stood his ground, touting Linux over Microsoft, with disregard toward his employment with HP...
  • He routinely has showed up any SCO claims...
  • He often posts here on slashdot!
  • And, my favorite, he authored ElectricFence, which many of us have used...


And there are probably many, MANY other contributions he has given which I have overlooked..

So please, do give some consideration toward what he has done for all of the Linux community...

Re:Perens LLC (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151173)

And now he's using his position to attempt to leverage the amount of choice that I have.

Fuck Bruce Perens, and the horse he rode in on.

No he's not. (1)

IANAAC (692242) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151340)

And now he's using his position to attempt to leverage the amount of choice that I have.

You are free to use any distribution you like.

Re:Perens LLC (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151410)

And now he's using his position to attempt to leverage the amount of choice that I have.

You never should have given Perens your root password! I knew it would come back to bite you in the ass.

Re:Perens LLC (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151206)

People don't care and are sometimes ignorant.

They figure that:

1. They like KDE.
2. Since I like KDE, KDE is better.
3. I don't like gnome.
4. People who think gnome is better are stupid.
5. This is free software.
6. Since people work for free software they don't get paid.
7. People should spend time on KDE because it's better then GNOME.
8. Bruce Parens doesn't like KDE or QT, he made gnome.
9. Gnome sucks.
10. Perens sucks.
11. Developement time taken away from KDE for Gnome.
12. KDE is better.
13. It does stuff like copy paste better.
14. MS sucks.
15. MS is to make money.
16. Redhat is to make money.
17. Parens makes money off of Gnome.
18. MS sucks,
19. Rehdat then sucks because they make money.
20. Paresn sucks X 2

This is the big one:

21. Gnome gets more commercial support, which means that more developement time goes to Gnome instead of KDE (which is better). I don't understand because the QT liscence fee is so small that it doesn't matter. Why don't they like KDE?

22. Suse used KDE,
23. Suse rocked
24. KDE rocked
25. Suse now will use Ximian which is gnome which is Parens.
26. Parens sucks X 5.

etc etc

Now that's logic for you.

Re:Perens LLC (2, Interesting)

iksrazal_br (614172) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151381)

Suse has made clear they plan on staying with kde at least for the "mid term" . My guess they are more interested in mono then gnome.

Re:Perens LLC (1)

iksrazal_br (614172) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151324)

There's probably not much animosity towards perens. Probably not much market for userlinux either. Xandros, lindows, conectiva and slackware all have their niche markets, some of those even healthy. And probably by alienating half of the linux community by the kde issue, fences are being built.

This all may mean limited success for userlinux but probably doen't diminish his past achievments much.

Re:Perens LLC (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151395)

Who, like ESR hasn't written a piece of code that has been widely accepted in the past 3 years.

Who, while trying to be PC with his 'social contract' doesn't call HP and other companies to the carpet because it might hurt his consulting revenue.

Lets other do the grunt work of the SCO research and then posts stupid articles like "THE DDOS is Bad!"

Re:Perens LLC (1)

javahacker (469605) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151530)

I think we should get something clear. I know some people have gone overboard in reaction to his decision about KDE in UserLinux, but this particular decision is the reason I have written.

I am a long time KDE user, and found his reasons for dismissing KDE very thin. They came across to me (and evidently many others) more like a re-hash of the old QT/GTK wars than a valid technical reason for making the decision. If he wants to make the personal choice of selecting Gnome for UserLinux, just say so. He will lose some users over this issue, and that is his choice. Evidently there are some users he is not willing to lose, as they are paying customers. That is his choice as well.

My choice is which distro to use, and it will be one that is willing to support KDE.

Please don't go around making generic statements (I know others have been making them as well) about why some of us object to making a technical decision based on non-technical reasoning.

That's uncalled for (3, Interesting)

The Tyro (247333) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151342)

Perens has given a good deal of his time and energy to the open source community... and as another poster already mentioned, is a frequent /. contributor.

Not to mention (near and dear to my heart) the fact that he's an active HAM radio guy.

Ah well, it wouldn't be /. without ACs taking potshots at everyone...

Re:Perens LLC (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151349)

Perens LLC ... hmm ... does that mean that Bruce Perens stopped living on other people's money and starts working?

Unless you consider vaporware a real product, it looks like he's still just being the usual windbag. Maybe if he talks about UserLinux long enough, someone else will actually implement it. Then he can add it to his resume so that people know he started the project. Oh, that reminds me, it's a new month. Bruce, it's time to post your resume here on /. again!

Makes good business sense... (4, Interesting)

bc90021 (43730) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151029)

...and I quote:

"I already have a customer asking for Perens LLC to provide commercial support for KDE on the UserLinux platform. And we will do so, even though KDE is not the chosen GUI of the UserLinux project. This is an
option for any UserLinux service provider."

So, in other words, if your customers want it, you should provide it. Makes sense to me. ;)

Re:Makes good business sense... (1)

yanestra (526590) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151056)

So, in other words, if your customers want it, you should provide it. Makes sense to me. ;)
And the holy grail? The idea of FREE software? (Distinguished from Free Software, which is GPL licensed, but with another license as a choice.)

Normal Perens response. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151236)

BAD BAD BAD BAD!!!
(Someone shows him money &...)
What was bad is now GOOD GOOD GOOD!!!

This is bad news - Here is why! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151035)


KDE was cooked up in the same country that started both World Wars, embraced philosophies of destruction and hate (such as Nazism and Fascism), and spawned evil murderous maniacs such as Adolf Hitler.

By using KDE you are implicitly endorsing these hatemongering people and their genocidal dogmas.

A true patriot uses GNOME, written in the land of the free and the home of the brave. By using Gnome you are re-affirming your American ideals and supporting the open doctrine of truth, liberty, and justice for all Windows users.

Re:This is bad news - Here is why! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151126)

Cool Troll dude.

But noadays America stands for the things you creditted to the Germans ;-).


Just shouting America! (followed by...)

SIEG HEIL!!!

Re:This is bad news - Here is why! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151163)

"A true patriot uses GNOME, written in the land of the free and the home of the brave."

MEXICO ?

Re:This is bad news - Here is why! (-1, Offtopic)

merl7n (473249) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151374)

KDE was cooked up in the same country that started both World Wars, embraced philosophies of destruction and hate (such as Nazism and Fascism), and spawned evil murderous maniacs such as Adolf Hitler. just to get something right here, Hitler was spawned in Linz, Austria. bye, MLN

Re:This is bad news - Here is why! (1)

quigonn (80360) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151455)

So what? I live in Linz, Austria, does that make me an evil mass-murderer?

Re:This is bad news - Here is why! (0, Offtopic)

udippel (562132) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151548)

Oh, wei !

Mod someone up the parent. If I had a point left, I'd give it as 'Funny'. Not too funny, no, not very funny; but: funny, hei.
Surely more funny than troll. Do we have cynical ?
Look at the last paragraph: Anonymous Coward doesn't mean what he says.
Ah, you modded him down for Anti-Americanism, then ?

Just wondering. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151041)

Anyone else find it funny that a google image search of goatse brings up cowboy neals picture on the fist page?

Let the KDE zealots rejoice (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151047)

Your crappy Windoze-wannabe desktop environment made it into UserLinux. Keramik looks like an XP ripooff. XP is butt-ugly and you want to emulate that. Bahhh. And KDE people are such whiners. Almost as whiny as BSD assholes.

As opposed to GNOME zealots? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151055)

With their license purity and gay GTK widgets? Oh, and *BSD Is Dying.

Re:Let the KDE zealots rejoice (1)

The Analog Kid (565327) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151066)

I think they know it looks bad, that's why Plastik was made, and I'm pretty sure it will be the default in 3.2, but I'm not 100% sure.

Re:Let the KDE zealots rejoice (1)

jonbryce (703250) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151128)

It won't. The default theme is always the one used for the screenshots in the documentation, and that at the monent is Keramic.

It may become the default in a later version.

Of course, distros will make their own choice about what default to use.

Re:Let the KDE zealots rejoice (1)

smeat (18128) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151137)

Nope, Keramik will still be the default. A major change in themes with a minor release is foolish. Besides a lot of people like the fact that Keramik is actually unique, not a rip off of someone else's designs.

smeat!

Re:Let the KDE zealots rejoice (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151413)

It would help if it wasn't so fugly and was unique.. people would rather a copy of a nice theme then a unique fugly one... Plastick should be the default, it will attract a lot of people to KDE...

Choice is good... (5, Interesting)

_Pinky_ (75643) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151059)

Thats the one driving force, even above open source, that I think pulls people to GNU/Linux...

I mean people clammer about window manager themes almost as much as the window managers themselves...

Think of the solitary driving force, it's choice... Even as far to the point where if you don't like a certain aspect of a piece of software you can look at the source and change it...

So, to exclude any piece of software would, at heart, be hypocritical, given the open source method.

Just my two cents as a staunch Gnome user...

Re:Choice is good... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151087)

gnaa sucks the devil's balls mercifully. down with the gnaa.

Re:Choice is good... (2, Insightful)

_|()|\| (159991) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151337)

to exclude any piece of software would, at heart, be hypocritical

It should not be the responsibility of the distro to package every piece of software a user could conceivably want. In fact, the more software a distro includes, the less confident I am that they can maintain it properly.

While a distro should include the libraries necessary to run KDE, GNOME, and Motif applications, it's fine for it to standardize on one desktop environment / window manager. After all, one aspect of choice is choosing a distro in the first place.

sad (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151072)

i actually use gnome a lot more. it seems faster than KDE. after a few days of using KDE for some reason it seems all buggy. i've got plenty of memory and a fast video card. :'(

Re:sad (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151174)

Well GNOME is much buggier thank KDE but that is because of its highly broken and half finished framework. But well why do I tell you this, you won't understand it anyways.

Re:sad (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151368)

too bad you don't have a brain or a virgin ass hole :'(

Simple business decision. Why is this news ? (-1, Troll)

Space cowboy (13680) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151075)

They have customers who've asked for a missing feature. They've decided to supply that feature. That's it.

Er, stuff that *matters* ?

Sure, it's nice to know UserLinux will have KDE, but surely this rates as a slashback at most ? Slow news day perhaps...

Simon

Re:Simple business decision. Why is this news ? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151101)

Important Stuff:
Please try to keep posts on topic.
Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads.
Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said.
Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about.
Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page)
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Problems regarding accounts or comment posting should be sent to CowboyNeal.

Re:Simple business decision. Why is this news ? (5, Funny)

kfg (145172) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151106)

Slow news day perhaps...

Well yeah. SCO's down.

KFG

Perens LLC, not UserLinux (4, Informative)

valkadesh (450943) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151091)

What Perens is saying is that is own consulting company will offer support for KDE as a service provider. Gnome is still the only chosen GUI for UserLinux.

Re:Perens LLC, not UserCock (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151115)

Important Stuff:
Please try to keep posts on topic.
Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads.
Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said.
Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about.
Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page)
If you want replies to your comments sent to you, consider logging in or creating an account.

Problems regarding accounts or comment posting should be sent to CowboyNeal

Re:Perens LLC, not UserCock (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151341)

# Impotent Stiff: Please try to keep pants on.
# Try to touch other people's penises instead of your own.
# Lick other people's rims before pissing in your own mouth.
# Use a clear subject that describes what you are about to do.
# Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments are encouraged by our pro-homosexual moderators
# If you want replies to your comments brought to you, consider the consequences of CmdrTaco visiting your house and foot-fisting your son, your father, your grandfather, you and your canary.

Re:Perens LLC, not UserLinux (3, Funny)

yanestra (526590) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151158)

What Perens is saying is that is own consulting company will offer support for KDE as a service provider. Gnome is still the only chosen GUI for UserLinux.
Uncool.
More people like you and /. will cease to exist.

Stop spoiling /. discussions with unnecessary realism or old-fashioned think patterns like truth and false.

Re:Perens LLC, not UserLinux (1)

bangular (736791) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151196)

I don't get this overwhelming support for gnome. On just technical merit, KDE is at least as good as Gnome, so all the fuss is basically over stupid QT license issues. KDE is a very well oiled project with regular releases and an awesome product. So why are only a select few distro's using it as the default WM?

Re:Perens LLC, not UserLinux (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151247)

> KDE is at least as good as Gnome

KDE is technically not AS GOOD as GNOME, no it's far supperior over GNOME in many ways. Something usually developers can talk about since they offer the technical skills to do so.

The normal people usually bash about what they prefer to use rather than giving good constructive feedback.

> So why are only a select few distro's using it as the default WM?

First of all, neither KDE nor GNOME are Window Managers, they are Desktop Environments. A complete different thing but important word to say. People usually talk about GNOME and KDE but don't even know the difference about WM's and DE's and thus it makes me wonder why they talk at all.

Actually KDE is being used in a wide range of distributions and the amount of distros using KDE as default Desktop Environment is far higher than you want to make us believe here.

Please first learn the difference between WM and DE and then come back talking and judging about KDE.

Re:Perens LLC, not UserLinux (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151273)

The normal people usually bash about what they prefer to use rather than giving good constructive feedback.

If developers feel that being told what normal people want to use doesn't amount to constructive feedback then that's their problem.

Re:Perens LLC, not UserLinux (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151367)

That's not the point. The point is that most NORMAL users don't know a shite about the technical framework. It has nothing to do with not telling developers what they like to see. It's about not knowing the bottom framework good enough to seriously talk about it.

Re:Perens LLC, not UserLinux (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151429)

The point is that most NORMAL users don't know a shite about the technical framework. It has nothing to do with not telling developers what they like to see. It's about not knowing the bottom framework good enough to seriously talk about it.

Most normal users don't just not know enough about the underlying framework to talk about it, they aren't remotely interested in talking about it and are never likely to be.

The point actually seems to be that you're annoyed when they do talk about the things that matter to them.

Re:Perens LLC, not UserLinux (3, Insightful)

10Ghz (453478) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151270)

Well, there's SUSE, Mandrake, Lindows, Xandros, Lycoris, Conectiva and several others that use KDE as their default. Distros that use GNOME as default are Red Hat/Fedora and UserLinux (are there others?). Rest are desktop-agnostic.

So it would seem that there are more distros useing KDE as default than there are distros using GNOME as default.

Re:Perens LLC, not UserLinux (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151303)

Well, there's SUSE, Mandrake, Lindows, Xandros, Lycoris, Conectiva and several others that use KDE as their default. Distros that use GNOME as default are Red Hat/Fedora and UserLinux (are there others?). Rest are desktop-agnostic.

How about Mad Hatter? Okay, I don't know anyone who uses it myself but the same could be said for Lindows, Xandros, Lycoris and Conectiva.

Re:Perens LLC, not UserLinux (2, Insightful)

10Ghz (453478) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151373)

Conectiva is the leading distro in Brazil and I beliave in entire South-America. Lindows and the others are propably not in the same target-market you happen to be in (same can be said for Conectiva).

Just because YOU don't happen to know anyone who uses those distros, doesn't mean that they are not used. Hell, I don't know anyone who uses Red Hat, so I guess Red Hat is not videly used, eh?

Re:Perens LLC, not UserLinux (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151399)

What exactly is your point? You asked for suggestions of other Gnome distros and I suggested Mad Hatter.

For ME I don't know many people who use it, so I thought I'd say as much but say that that's true of a lot of others already listed too so don't read too much into it.

You seem to have taken that as a personal attack. I don't understand how. I suggest you take a break from the computer and calm down.

Re:Perens LLC, not UserLinux (1)

10Ghz (453478) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151463)

What exactly is your point?


You basically said that "Yeah, but nobody uses those distros!". I merely pointed out that yes, they are in fact used, quite widely as well. Just because you don't happen to use them, or you don't know of anyone who uses them, it does not mean that no-one uses them. The distros you mentioned are concentrated either geographically (Conectiva) or by target-market (Lindows etc.). If you don't happen to be in the right place or in the right target-market, it's no wonder that you don't see them being used.

I fail to see how you could think that I took your comment as a "personal attack". Was it because I wrote "you" with all caps?

Re:Perens LLC, not UserLinux (5, Interesting)

manyoso (260664) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151262)

... which completely breaks Bruce's latest rationale for excluding KDE in the first place:

"it's just too hard to support both..."

also throws some cold water on the other ridiculous rationales he uses from time to time, depending upon if the mood suits him:

"Qt can't support a coveted cottage industry of proprietary developers..."

yah, well, except for the current 'cottage industry' that overwhelmingly has chosen Qt for commercial development...

so Bruce's is left with one rationale for his decision to exclude KDE from the default of UL:

"I've already made the choice ... inertia"

Nothing new here (4, Informative)

TrentC (11023) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151127)

This is just a rehash of what Bruce Perens has been saying all along [slashdot.org]; even though UserLinux's standard GUI desktop environment will be GNOME, KDE will still work on it, and will be supported on demand for customers who want it.

I already have a customer asking for Perens LLC to provide commercial support for KDE on the UserLinux platform. [emphasis mine] And we will do so, even though KDE is not the chosen GUI of the UserLinux project. This is an option for any UserLinux service provider.

So really, nothing has changed.

Jay (=

Re:Nothing new here (4, Insightful)

StormReaver (59959) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151202)

"So really, nothing has changed."

Something has changed. This customer will not have to go out of his way to get Qt/KDE onto his systems, as Perens LLC will make sure that they are preloaded.

We all should be painfully aware of the power of preloads vs. the weakness of non-preloads. All desktop systems should be have both GNOME and KDE preloaded and ready, as neither desktop has a lock on desirable applications, and both desktops have higly useful applications.

The only predictable result of not doing so is a large segment of somewhat pissed users who will claim that Linux is hard because it makes users work too hard to get the basic libraries in place for the applications they want to run.

Re:Nothing new here (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151255)

Perens would support SCO if they paid him enough money...

Re:Nothing new here (2, Informative)

LarryRiedel (141315) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151479)

"So really, nothing has changed."
Something has changed. This customer will not have to go out of his way to get Qt/KDE onto his systems, as Perens LLC will make sure that they are preloaded.

I do not see anything in the referenced message which states, implies, or even remotely suggests that Perens LLC will make sure that Qt or KDE is preloaded anywhere. Where did he say that?

Larry

Re:Nothing new here (5, Informative)

TrentC (11023) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151519)

You seem to be confusing "Bruce Perens notes that he has a customer who wants a UserLinux system with KDE, which he will provide" with "UserLinux will offer both GNOME by default and KDE as an option".

This is not a change for the UserLinux project. GNOME is still the only officially supported desktop environment for the project, and Perens has said all along that providers using UserLinux can customize the distro however their customers want.

Jay (=

Re:Nothing new here (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151209)

> And we will do so, even though I DIDN'T CHOOSE KDE AS THE GUI of the UserLinux project.

What a dumbass, calls out the community to help him with this project but then decides on his own (ignoring over 60 KDE developers that were subscribed there that time).

Re:Nothing new here (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151357)

What a dumbass, calls out the community to help him with this project but then decides on his own (ignoring over 60 KDE developers that were subscribed there that time).

Yeah, it's as bad as Linus Torvalds asking for help but still deciding what goes in his own kernel tree. Totally unacceptable. If you want help with something then you should have to do whatever the KDE developers tell you to do, that's what I always say.

Re:Nothing new here (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151363)

If you're going to troll by changing quotes, try not to do it when quoting the parent message [slashdot.org]. Most readers with an atention span longer than a goldfish will have remebered what the true quote was.

There are a lot of good trolls on slashdot, try to learn from them.

Re:Nothing new here (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151389)

I participated to the UserLinux Mailinglist so I even know better what he wrote and how he acted. So chill out faggot.

Re:Nothing new here (1)

manyoso (260664) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151277)

Bullshit. Bruce has said that he excluded KDE because of the vast difficulty of supporting both. He's also said that Qt can't support a cottage industry of commercial development. Now, his own customers are clamoring for KDE/Qt which nullifies both of these.

Look. (2, Insightful)

IANAAC (692242) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151312)

He said he has a customer asking for KDE. That's hardly clamoring for KDE/Qt (and not at all what he said).

That said, I believe that both should be offered from the get-go.

Re:Look. (1)

manyoso (260664) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151356)

Yes, that is what he has said in this particular email. But, if you'd monitor UL list you'll note that several commercial entities have asked or argued for KDE's inclusion into UL. One of them has formally approached Bruce and convinced him to change his mind. Still, others have been clamoring for KDE/Qt's inclusion into UL.

HTML messages on the list (0, Offtopic)

Ed Avis (5917) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151325)

Never mind the GNOME/KDE fanboy wars, I'm more interested in another holy war: plan text versus HTML mail. The info page [userlinux.com] for the mailing list Perens wrote to says 'Please use HTML email when sending to the list.' Why on earth would anyone actively want that? But he seems to have broken his own rule, since his message [userlinux.com] is plain text.

this is all well and good (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151133)

but windows is still a lot more widespread and at the moment quite a bit faster.

The article has confused wording (5, Informative)

mjrauhal (144713) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151135)


This is not about UserLinux including KDE
or supporting it. This is about Perens LLC offering
support for UserLinux with KDE added on for paying
customers. Perens has always maintained
that this is an option for any support provider,
as any support provider may offer support for,
say, UserLinux with MySQL added on.




This also means that a service provider supporting UserLinux
does not have to support KDE (or MySQL for that
matter) to live up to their advertising.

Cool, good humor (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151156)

Haven't laught so loud seeing any article posted on /. until this one.

Realy cool trolls and flames. Thought they where a dying breed... :-)

LOL,
M

Re:Cool, good humor (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151195)

SP, typing this message using SuSE 9.0
HAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA

See that , you fuckers...

Re:Cool, good humor (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151210)

M? Michael Jackson?! Plastic faced freak!

Thanks (1)

iksrazal_br (614172) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151186)

At least now I don't have to read about the controversy any more.

That all said, as a kde user since 1999 and frequent gnome lurker, I simply don't see a compelling reason to switch. KDE users are probably still a majority ya know. Most of europe uses KDE and here in brasil its a sizeable majority of those I work with. Popularity does effect markets if you care to have one.

Great move, I now care about userlinux.

Perens knows what is best for Perens (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151205)

He has a business empire to worry about, afterall. Books, software, consulting - he can't let a little thing like ethics get in the way of that, can he?

Re:Perens knows what is best for Perens (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151317)

He has a business empire to worry about, afterall. Books, software, consulting - he can't let a little thing like ethics get in the way of that, can he?

Re:Perens knows what is best for Perens (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151569)

He has a business empire to worry about, afterall - Books, software, consulting - cut him some slack. He is allowed to change his open source views each week when it hurts his pocketbook.

Reality 1. Bruce 0. (2, Insightful)

manyoso (260664) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151220)

... because that's what his customers are asking for.

It was stupid not to in the first place.

Bruce's decisions about UL and the exclusion of anything Qt has undergone numerous transformations. First, it was because Qt couldn't produce a 'cottage industry' of commercial support. When this was pointed out to be demonstrably false, Bruce retreated into the, 'but Qt isn't free' argument... knowingly choosing to obfuscate the old 'Free (libre) VS free (gratis) canard of the community. When Free Software developers called him on this reprehensible tactic, Bruce retreated into the, 'but we just can't possibly support everything' argument.

Now, Bruce is learning from real commercial companies that KDE/Qt support is mandatory and he's having to distance himself from the craving anti-Qt trolls on his own list. The sad thing? Bruce missed a valuable opportunity to really work with KDE developers and the broader community by choosing instead to cater to his own bias and that of his sympathetic community of anti-Qt trolls. Now, he has lost a lot of his credibility in the eyes of many.

Re:Reality 1. Bruce 0. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151371)

There has been no moves to speak of. No, KDE will not go into the default install of UserLinux.

Just wait for the next step: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151483)

Bruce: Gtk can't support a coveted cottage industry of proprietary developers... -- most of my customers ask to make KDE the default these days. So lets just switch to KDE. Gtk will still be available for backwards compatibility though ...

Re:Reality 1. Bruce 0. (4, Insightful)

Pentagram (40862) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151400)

So he's listened to his critics, considered the arguments, changed his mind to come around to your point of view and you're flaming him anyway? That's not exactly the best way to gain future converts.

Commercial Customers.. (2, Insightful)

vpscolo (737900) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151226)

..wants something that works and is supported. As both KDE and Gnome are supported thats a good thing

Rus

Doesn't make sense (0, Flamebait)

Quantum-Sci (732727) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151253)

I used Gnome for about a year, and it lacked many basic and oft-used things, like right-click make a shortcut/unarch/move. Also it was shakey as heck -- unreliable.

I'm happy for those who like Gnome, but K just gets the job done, for me. And fast, too.

My only wish is that X could be re-written to be a common object broker to the hardware, so that creation od a new window-manager is within an average-person's reach. Or else X should eliminated altogether. Its current mission is obsolete.

Re:Doesn't make sense (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151423)

I used Gnome for about a year, and it lacked many basic and oft-used things, like right-click make a shortcut/unarch/move. Also it was shakey as heck -- unreliable.

What gnome version did you use for about a year? 0.X? Those features have worked fine and in a reliable way since 2.2, and we are at 2.5, with 2.6 going to be released soon.

kettle calling pot black (3, Insightful)

iksrazal_br (614172) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151256)

I'm confused. Perens prefers not to include KDE because they have a lgpl strategy to make money, yet userlinux will charge money to include it. WTF?

Ignore KDE and I ignore userlinux, its that simple.

To many toolkits! (5, Interesting)

BillyBlaze (746775) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151346)

UserLinux is showing us that it's not yet possible to make a Linux distro with fewer than two GUI toolkits. Actually more, when you figure in FLTK, Motif, XAW, XUL, FOX and so on. This wastes disk space, memory, and developer time, and the end result is an inconsistent GUI with no single place to change the look-n-feel.

I think what Linux on the Desktop needs is something just like X, but with server-side widget-drawing and window management code. The client-server design is what makes X great, and should be kept. But with a default widget set, there'd be one place to change fonts, window decorations, colors, etc. And there'd be less repetition.

It wouldn't be inflexible. A good X replacemnt would have an X-server client so that X programs could run as part of it. So it would still be easy to use your own toolkit if you really wanted to. And the server would have a plugin system to allow a wide range of widget and window styles.

At the moment, I run KDE. I suppose X's architecture is better than Windows's putting everything in kernel-space, but it still pains me. I can't wait until I can easily run something like PicoGUI or Fresco on my desktop.

Say No to IPv6 (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151384)

Just do it!
I know I will!

Perens making Profit from KDE in Userlinux (1)

Bruha (412869) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151393)

I already have a customer asking for Perens LLC to provide commercial
support for KDE on the UserLinux platform. And we will do so, even
though KDE is not the chosen GUI of the UserLinux project. This is an
option for any UserLinux service provider.


For some reason it makes sense. In a capitalist way Perens will make money by including KDE into Userlinux. Obviously this customer must be worth some support money if he backtracked this quickly.

However he may have to compete with Novell on this since SuSE is predominately KDE based and if he wants to take from that pool of potentials (Novell customers reluctant to switch distros if that means a new desktop for their users to get acquainted with)

Of course Bruce may or may not have been motivated to create UserLinux if it held no real benefit to him.

Can't believe the outrage (4, Insightful)

GauteL (29207) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151445)

There are several KDE-only distributions around (Xandros, Lycoris, Lindows), yet no GNOMErs seem to care all that much.

The minute someone tries to create a GNOME-only desktop system, like UserLinux, a flock of people (slashbots) go mental about it. What is the point? There is plenty of room for an integrated GNOME-only desktop.

Choice is good people say, but including both desktop-systems make integration issues a lot more difficult, and resources could be better spent elsewhere.

Plus if choice is good, then having the choice of a GNOME-only desktop is good. Include KDElibs and Qt, and people can still run their KDE-apps.

please read oh kollum (1)

linuxislandsucks (461335) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151509)

The UserLInux group is not a I repaet not supporting KDE..Bruce just outlined hwo an independent Vendor group could support KDE within using UserLinux for their customers..

UserLinux is still only using GNOME

just supporting as a provider (1)

jrexilius (520067) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151510)

From the discussion it looks like his company is supporting it as a provider not that it is going to be in there as an install default (although if it is in there as an optional install seems unclear).

Debian (2, Insightful)

magellanic (689252) | more than 10 years ago | (#8151526)

Different Linux distributions exist because they are designed for a different purpose. Trying to augment various, unique features of these well established distributions will inevitably reduce user choice. Surely, creating a standardized, "super-distro" is contrary to open-source philosophy.

If there is an attempt to create such a distribution, it should at least have a firm base. Support for new hardware is one of the factors preventing Windows users migrating to Linux, such a project should not use a distribution as outdated as Debian.

Dev::Bollocks (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8151531)

Moin,

seem the KDE people now talk bollocks:

" We will leverage standard KDE core and upcoming features that are potentially crucial in an enterprise environment. "

Ugh :-(

"potentially crucial my ass" - Tels

Cheers,

Tels
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