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Refunding an Xbox Live Annual Renewal Fee?

Cliff posted more than 10 years ago | from the sketchy-business-practices dept.

Microsoft 196

craigandthem is curious about the following: "Recently, I was going over my credit card statement, and noticed a charge I didn't remember making. After investigating, I determined that it was an auto-renewal for my Xbox Live account (for an Xbox that hasn't worked in months). I called to have the fee refunded, and Microsoft refused. They informed me that since it had been longer than 60 days from when my account was renewed, I was not eligible for a refund. The problem lies in that they didn't charge my credit card until December 26, despite renewing my account on November 15. I feel that this was done to increase the odds that I'd only be aware of the charge after it was too late to have reversed. They also claim I had fair warning I was going to be charged, since they sent me an email detailing my upcoming renewal. The email was sent to an old university account, which was de-activated after I graduated, and therefore never received. Have any fellow Slashdot readers received similar treatment, and if so, were you able to recover your money? Legally, is it my obligation to keep my Xbox Live information up to date to avoid this dilemma?"

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Credit Card Fraud Is a Serious Crime (0, Flamebait)

Markus Registrada (642224) | more than 10 years ago | (#8197944)

They are treading on thin ice. Take it up with your bank.

Re:Credit Card Fraud Is a Serious Crime (4, Informative)

TheWanderingHermit (513872) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198152)

It's not fraud.

Find a license agreement (even if you have to go to a store that will let you read one). It's like a lot of services and automatically renews. On any service like this, once you sign up and pay, it is up to you to cancel. The fact that you didn't cancel it, give them an updated e-mail addy, or check your bill when it came in is your fault.

I wish I could say this is another cause of Microsoft giving customers the shaft, but I can't when you ignored your responsibilities.

I will say, as someone who tried MSN, that Microsoft does make it tough to cancel, often requiring passwords you may have forgotten, or specifically notifying them at least 60 days before renewal, but, again, most services automatically renew. It's their way of increasing income. A lot of services count on people forgetting to cancel accounts, which is what you did. Multiply that by hundreds or thousands of accounts with only a small fraction forgetting to cancel their subscription, and you can see the profit can mount up for them.

Re:Credit Card Fraud Is a Serious Crime (2, Interesting)

zulux (112259) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198404)

Microsoft does make it tough to cancel, often requiring passwords you may have forgotten, or specifically notifying them at least 60 days before renewal,

I make it easy on myself - I just send the company a written letter that they stop service and send it via certified mail.

The small change of certified mail is worth not having to deal with some kid on the phone for 30 mins.

Re:Credit Card Fraud Is a Serious Crime (1)

Overdrive_SS (243510) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198633)

Doesn't that seem slimey to anyone else besides me?

I have noticed plenty of companies that do this automatic renewal thing and I have to say I don't care for it one bit. Is it that hard to send me a statement or a reminder to renew my account? I mean, I can be lazy, but I have enough spare time to sign a piece of paper authorizing you to renew my account and that way maybe the company will work a little harder to keep my business or maybe some sort of perks for renewing.

But no, they automatically renew, preying on the poor people who forgot to cancel or maybe didn't cancel the "proper" way. And I don't want to hear that they deserve it for forgetting, everyone forgets to do something now and then and a $50 charge or whatever it is for some of these services tends to get put on the bottom of the priorities list.

Re:Credit Card Fraud Is a Serious Crime (2, Insightful)

TheWanderingHermit (513872) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198760)

From the company's point of view:
1) If they remind you, it cost postage, plus all the costs associated with a massive mailing like that every month or so.
2) If they remind you, and you're not using it, you'll remember to cancel, and they lose income.
3) Many services default to this for convenience (like the paper -- or other monthly bills, like an ISP -- and often this benefits the customer as well).
4) Why would the company want to work harder to keep your business? I know you'd like them to, but they've got you, they've got your business, why should they remind you to stop paying them or give you a reason to consider terminating?

I don't care much for it either, but on the other hand, I'm glad my beer-of-the-month club, my isp, my gym, and some other services auto-renew, otherwise I'd have a bunch of extra bills to remember each month. It's the way almost every service works. You can deal with it or you can whine.

Yes, there are people who forget. And many of them, after getting nailed once, will remember in the future. If you sign ANY kind of legal agreement, it is your (generic your, I'm not attacking you personally) responsibility to a) remember the terms of the agreement, b) abide by them, c) remember your responsibilities. Maybe you don't deserve a fee for forgetting, but considering that this will be enough of a frustration he will likely remember it and not do it again, $50 is a cheap price to pay for a recent college grad to learn a lesson in life, as opposed to hundereds for a single 3 hour class.

Maybe he doesn't deserve it, but it could have been a lot more and this may remind him to cancel a higher cost subscription in the future. I have little sypmathy for anyone who subscribes for a service, doesn't read the ToS (especially when the company has a rep like MS does), and later complains that he got screwed because the company did what they said they'd do in the first place.

Credit is good, Debit is Bad (5, Interesting)

ResHippie (105522) | more than 10 years ago | (#8197946)

At least for things not done in person. With a credit card you can simply call your company and contest the charges. Maybe enough people doing that will send a message.

check those credit card statements! (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8197960)

Don't be surprised by anything on your credit card statement. Check them at least once a week online or by phone. Or every day if you use your card a lot.

Whenever you see something you don't recognize (or in this case, didn't expect), immediately, or the next morning, call the responsible party (Microsoft). Do what you can to resolve the issue.

If you can't resolve the issue, because of *your* screwup (which might be the case, since Microsoft made the rules pretty clear I think), then too bad.

But if you still think you have a "case", immediately *WRITE* the credit card company a concise letter describing the problem. There are usually instructions on the back of the statement.

I have found that most of these things are quickly resolved by the credit card company. The merchants do not like chargebacks or investigations from the credit card companies and will solve the problem pretty quick.

In your situation, you *may* get results if you insist, calling several times over a few days, talking to different people, and generally being firm. But if you don't, you can't really press the issue because you didn't act immediately.

This is really not an issue with Microsoft or the Xbox service. It happens with anybody that wants your money.

Be sure to read all your agreements, and if they have deadlines, put them in your calendar! (i.e., Xbox auto-renews in 30 days, 15 days, tomorrow).

Good luck!

Re:check those credit card statements! (2, Informative)

Knetzar (698216) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198463)

Why bother writing to the credit card company? Every time I've needed to dispute charges I just called my credit card company, and they took care of it. It takes a while, but you are not charged for that item unless they find that the charges are valid. For me, the 3 times I've disputed charges, the credit card company decided that I was right. Either way the burdun of proof is on MS and it costs them time/money to try and get the money from you, so it's to you benifit to try that way they at least get the message that what they did was wrong.

Incorrect about the burden of proof (2, Insightful)

orthancstone (665890) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198995)

This guy didn't update his email (they aren't responsible for that) and forgot about the contract he mutual agreed with (they have no obligation to assist him in remembering the details). The only thing you could slightly say MS needs to defend is the time period for charging his account but that's hardly the burden of proof that makes or breaks this case.

Who'd let Micrsoft auto-charge/-renew anything?!? (-1, Troll)

ivi (126837) | more than 10 years ago | (#8197965)

Your first mistake was giving M$
your credit card details...

They'd be getting pretty hungry
right about now, what with all
this Open Source Software taking
away their market share & all... ;-)

Don't do that next time, & save
yourself -and- the folks at your
State's consumer affairs office
some time,,, ;-)

Re:Who'd let Micrsoft auto-charge/-renew anything? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8198209)

Is there some reason you manually word-wrap at like 20 characters? It's really fucking annoying to read, having to jump to a new line every other word.

Re:Who'd let Micrsoft auto-charge/-renew anything? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8198698)

Yes; but one wonders why he bothered posting in the first place.

You have no choice (1)

orthancstone (665890) | more than 10 years ago | (#8199002)

To use Xbox Live, you must give them a credit card number.

Re:You have no choice (1)

quecojones (108609) | more than 10 years ago | (#8199826)

Not really. When I got my XBox Live kit, it had a card in the box (like those pre-paid phone cards) with a number on it that I gave the program when I installed it. I got the one-year deal and didn't have to give them my credit card number.

Re:Who'd let Micrsoft auto-charge/-renew anything? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8199226)

Didn't take too long for the microsoft bashing to appear, get over it you wanker. Another one of these twits who hasn't a clue what he's talking about. Tit.

OMG MAN SUE M$ (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8197968)

Then put the money to good use by donating it to the FSF.

FUCK M$

Here's what you're legally required to do! (5, Funny)

Gizzmonic (412910) | more than 10 years ago | (#8197974)

Take your Xbox...put it on the floor next to your TV. Turn it on (may I suggest "Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball"?!?!). Take a bath.

Come back when you're all wet. Take a sheet rock saw and start sawing away at the Xbox's power cord while you're all wet.

Soon, the cord will fray, and it will electrocute you. Now you're dead! This is a good thing, because you're no longer bound by the laws of time/space.

Go back in time and develop Cinnamon Rice Krispies instead of Cocoa Krispies. Then leave a sheet rock saw under your couch so that your future self will be able to use it to kill himself, setting you free.

If you follow these easy instructions, the Xbox will be free of all demons! And it will stay crunchy in milk!

Re:Here's what you're legally required to do! (2, Funny)

Sheetrock (152993) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198800)

I was wondering where my damn saws went.

Re:Here's what you're legally required to do! (1)

cliveholloway (132299) | more than 10 years ago | (#8199477)

"Thank God I wore my corset for I fear my sides have split".

V Nice!

cLive ;-)

Re:Here's what you're legally required to do! (-1)

Mr.Dippy (613292) | more than 10 years ago | (#8199864)

That was the most logical post I've ever seen of Slashdot. It's crazy enough it just might work.

With the contracts they set... (3, Informative)

metroid composite (710698) | more than 10 years ago | (#8197986)

Legally, is it my obligation to keep my Xbox Live information up to date to avoid this dilemma?

Unfortunately I'm guessing it is, though I've never looked at the XBox agreement contract in particular. It's just that ToS agreements tend to thoroughly cover all such bases. For example, when you have a Paypal account you "waive your rights to credit card consumer protection laws, and that you may not issue a chargeback for anything you purchase using your credit card and PayPal account" (or...at least according to paypalsucks.com). Though, I'll admit I tend to just press "I Agree" and not worry about it; if they actually abused such contracts consumers would revolt...right?

Re:With the contracts they set... (3, Informative)

Otter (3800) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198316)

For example, when you have a Paypal account you "waive your rights to credit card consumer protection laws, and that you may not issue a chargeback for anything you purchase using your credit card and PayPal account"

Fortunately, you can't necessarily just "waive your rights" to protection under law, no matter what you sign. I'd be skeptical about PayPal's ability to enforce that one.

In this case, the guy probably can get the credit card company to issue a chargeback pending an investigation. If Microsoft doesn't decide to be generous, though, I'd be amazed if the credit card issuer doesn't reinstate the charge.

Re:With the contracts they set... (1)

Electrum (94638) | more than 10 years ago | (#8199046)

Fortunately, you can't necessarily just "waive your rights" to protection under law, no matter what you sign. I'd be skeptical about PayPal's ability to enforce that one.

PayPal can't directly enforce it. But they can close your PayPal account and keep you from ever opening a new one. They could also bill you for what you owe them, send it to collections or take you to court.

OT: I just lost $ in an Amazon transaction seq. (1)

ivi (126837) | more than 10 years ago | (#8199150)

I ordered a book (via Amazon.com) from an
Amazon affiliate merchant; Amazon debitted
my credit card.

Merchant eMailed me to say they don't
have what they showed they had, in the
same (new) conditions shown.

They cancelled the order & told Amazon.

Amazon creditted my account with LESS
than they had debitted, possibly due
to a change in exchange rates. :-(

I said, fine (about the book's con-
dition), send one with a bent cover.

Affiliate merchant says, fine, deal
with us (directly) & we can send it
by additional shipping means.

I do that (& pay using PayPal),
since I don't know these people
from Moses.

Today, I see 2 different amounts
(debit greater than credit, by
Amazon) on my credit card state-
ment (on-line).

We need a single currency for
Internet transactions -or-
a better way to refund $'s,
in such situations.

Challenge it with the Credit Card Company (2, Informative)

Dubane (676770) | more than 10 years ago | (#8197996)

As a couple people have suggested, challenge the charge through your credit card company. You'll have to double-check your credit card usage agreement, but for most US cards, you have 60 days from the first bill the charge appears on to challenge something.
Once it's been challenged, it is up to the vendor (Microsoft) to verify with the credit card company that you really did authorize the charge.
In most cases, this won't happen, you'll never have to pay the bill, and it will go away.

Re:Challenge it with the Credit Card Company (1)

orthancstone (665890) | more than 10 years ago | (#8199008)

I can't imagine why MS would pass on an easy 50 bucks...

Re:Challenge it with the Credit Card Company (1)

Endive4Ever (742304) | more than 10 years ago | (#8199153)

It would cost them more than fifty bucks to fight the credit card company. Hell, it's probably already cost them more than fifty bucks to deal with this account holder, as he's already fought with them some. Some oversight person will look at the lack of activity on the Xbox Live account and cut their losses by accepting cancel from the credit card company.

The people this fellow has already encountered are the billing people, who deal with whiney kids and scammers for the most part. The people who interface with the credit card company speak a whole different language.

90 days, not 60 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8199636)

In the US, charges to your credit card are protected up to 90 days from the date of the charge. If you didn't use the service and did not request renewal, you can dispute the charge with your bank all the way up to that 90th day.

Get the BBB involved (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8198007)

I don't have an Xbox or a Live account, but here is what I would do.

1. Submit a Better Business complaint in from the website www.bbb.org

2. Dispute this fee with your credit card company. Explain to them everything you just told us.

3. Sit back and watch the 2 big companies battle it out.

A company simply can not charge you for services you no longer need. Just because it's their policy to charge you doens't mean that it was legal or even that it was morally right. Once you involve the BBB into something that is questionable they seem to make the company turn itself around.

Re:Get the BBB involved (3, Insightful)

Murdock037 (469526) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198302)

A few things:

Submit a Better Business complaint in from the website www.bbb.org

I'm sure this would not be the first contact Microsoft has had with the Better Business Bureau. They probably won't run and cower.

Dispute this fee with your credit card company.

Disputing the fee may work, but... it's messy. The credit card companies tend to favor the consumer in disputes, but it may not be worth the massive headache to the consumer over the money. (What kind of money are we talking about here? How much does Xbox Live cost, anyways?)

A company simply can not charge you for services you no longer need.

A company can, in fact, charge you for services you no longer need, if you agreed to those terms in the first place.

Just because it's their policy to charge you doens't mean that it was... morally right.

This matters how?

Let's face it, folks, the guy's on shaky ground here-- he should have acted sooner. No matter how satisfying it may be to have one more way story that points out Microsoft screwing the little guy, that's not the dynamic at play.

Screw the BBB, write PC Mag or something (1)

TubeSteak (669689) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198454)

Go write one of those tech magazines that deal with readers problems. Its amazing how quickly companies will roll over when they get an inquiry from a magazine asking them why they're screwing around with other people's time/money/hardware/etc. I Can't name the magazine I'm thinking of, but that might be a quick fix for your problems.

Re:Screw the BBB, write PC Mag or something (1)

orthancstone (665890) | more than 10 years ago | (#8199028)

Why would MS roll over? Sony and anyone else that runs MMORPG games have used these models. Plenty of other businesses use it too.

Charge That Sucker Back (3, Informative)

Landaras (159892) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198017)

I used to work for U.S. Bank (in a non-technical capacity), and there is something called a "charge-back."

A charge-back is basically where the credit card company refunds a charge to a customer by withholding (current or future) funds from a merchant. Credit card companies hold a surprisingly large amount of power over merchants, even one such as MS.

The way a charge-back works is a customer tells the credit card issuer that they are disputing a charge, gives the reason for the dispute, and states that they have tried in good faith to resolve the dispute with the merchant but have been unsuccesful.

The credit card company will review your information, and more than likely, issue a credit to your next statement.

Look for a "Fraud / Lost or Stolen Card" number on the back of your card, and give them a call. If that call center doesn't handle those issues they can direct you quickly to who can.

When you talk to the right person, be rational, be reasonable, and don't ask for Gates' head on a stick sharpened on both ends. Simply ask them to charge the X-Box subscription back to MS because you were billed for a service you never received, and MS refuses to come to an amicable resolution.

It sounds like you have a pretty solid case. Good luck!

- Neil Wehneman

Re:Charge That Sucker Back (2, Informative)

edwdig (47888) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198217)

Here's an important detail to remember when dealing with chargeback issues. Legally, your claim is not valid unless you submit it in writing. Calling up is not sufficient.

One credit card I really like is the Sears Card (not the in store card, but the MasterCard one). Their website fully explains to you all the details of chargebacks, and even provides a web form to automatically generate a letter you can print out and mail to handle chargeback issues.

Re:Charge That Sucker Back (2, Informative)

T-Ranger (10520) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198261)

That may very well be technicaly true. But you are not technicaly legaly required to pay for CC things when you submitted the number over the phone, the internet, or anything besides being physcially present (your card too...).

Call first. Demand a chargeback. Explain why. If they say OK, great. If they say they need a letter, write a letter, but the CC companies do just about everything over the phone, and almost definitly will accept verbal orders for the chargeback.

Re:Charge That Sucker Back (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8198505)

Most banks that issue credit cards have an online way to dispute a charge. It's every bit as valid as a written letter.

Re:Charge That Sucker Back (1)

orthancstone (665890) | more than 10 years ago | (#8199033)

[blockquote]It sounds like you have a pretty solid case. Good luck![/blockquote] Perhaps in an alternate reality...I don't see this guy getting his money back. He isn't the first to get screwed by this automatical charge in the contract and he'll be far from the last...

It sounds to me like they gave you ample warning (5, Informative)

Quarters (18322) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198018)

You don't say in your post if your subscription was for a full on Live! kit (12 months, headset, etc..) or just one of those Free 2 Months of Live! cards they are sticking in the games now.

Either way, when you entered in the access code, postal address, email address, and CC # the Live! system put up a big full screen text window on your TV that said (paraphrasing), "Your account is good for X days from today. If you don't cancel your account before then it will be automatically renewed and your CC will be charged."

They then warned you of the impending CC charge via email. That you didn't update your email address with them isn't their fault, it's yours.

Bottom line - You agreed to the Terms of Service. You agreed to allow Microsoft to charge your CC for a yearly renewal, you didn't cancel by the date specified, and you didn't provide Microsoft with current contact information.

Next time you should remember when you enter into a revolving service contract that the bill will come due at some point unless you take responsibility for cancelling the service if you no longer need or want it.

Re:It sounds to me like they gave you ample warnin (3, Informative)

sladelink (536962) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198102)

I work for an ISP, and that's basically how we handle billing disputes. We're a bit more lenient if a customer hasn't used their account in a couple months and would like a refund on the current bill; however, companies can't call up and make sure that you would like to renew your subscription each month/year. If you didn't update your email address or phone number, and agreed to the TOS, your luck in getting a refund without being a jerk to billing is pretty much nil.

Re:It sounds to me like they gave you ample warnin (1)

Otter (3800) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198270)

...and when I've had to contact my credit card companies about mysterious charges on my bill, the first question they ask nowadays is whether it's an ISP, website or something else with automatic billing. They're certainly familiar with this phenomenon and I'm guessing they're not going to be wildly sympathetic. It can't hurt to try, but don't get your hopes up too high.

Re:It sounds to me like they gave you ample warnin (4, Informative)

dmayle (200765) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198363)

That's a load of horse sh*t.

It's like how the gyms that require you to notify them in writing by snail mail to cancel your account. There's a reason why people have been taking them to court and winning, it's underhanded.

Unfortunately, it's not so easy to do something about. If you used a credit card (as opposed to a debit card), it should be relatively easy to get the charge cancelled, like mentioned in an earlier post. If not, stop by at your local court house and pick up a small claims form. Specify the amount as $70 (Xbox fee) + ~$100 (your time and effort coming to court), and most likely they'll refund it before the court date comes, or they won't even show up, which means you win by default. (It's not worth their money to fight it.)

Use the court system to your advantage, for once, and put them in the same positiion that they put small companies, i.e. the settlement is worth less than their legal fees... Total cost to you? Somewhere between $2 and $15

Re:It sounds to me like they gave you ample warnin (2, Insightful)

dhamsaic (410174) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198448)

Microsoft doesn't require a notice in writing delivered by snail mail for a cancellation, though. It's not underhanded; it's what he agreed to. I agree that it's shitty, but he needs to learn to read agreements that he makes himself subject to. Those were the terms, he said "yes", and now he's upset that he's being held to them.

Re:It sounds to me like they gave you ample warnin (1)

nathanh (1214) | more than 10 years ago | (#8199136)

Microsoft doesn't require a notice in writing delivered by snail mail for a cancellation, though. It's not underhanded; it's what he agreed to. I agree that it's shitty, but he needs to learn to read agreements that he makes himself subject to. Those were the terms, he said "yes", and now he's upset that he's being held to them.

If the "agreement" was illegal (eg, Microsoft wasn't allowed to automatically renew without at least a confirmation phone call or postal letter) then it doesn't matter if he agreed to automatic renewal. You can't be held to an illegal term in a contract.

PS: I'm not saying that the renewal does need confirmation by post or phone, I'm just offering that as an example. My point is that the contract cannot describe illegal actions, else it is not legally binding.

Re:It sounds to me like they gave you ample warnin (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8199933)

Just shut up. The contract doesn't require you to give them the OK; if he didn't want to pay, how should have read the TOS carefully, known they would auto-renewed, and canceled his account after his Xbox broke.

Re:It sounds to me like they gave you ample warnin (4, Insightful)

Quarters (18322) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198504)

Your comparison to gyms is misplaced and not accurate. There is nothing in the XBox Live! agreement that says you have to snail mail Microsoft a written letter to cancel. At worst you have to call them. There's nothing hard about the process. The problem with the original poster, though, is that he never even did that and now thinks that Microsoft is shafting him. All he had to do was call when his XBox broke and say, "Please don't renew my subscription, as I won't be needing it". Instead he just forgot about it.

Any frustration and/or anger he is feeling now should be directed at himself for failing to fully understand his responsibilities when he entered into a business contract with Microsoft.

There is need to involve the court system in this. It would be just another useless lawsuit tying up an already overstressed and abused court system.

Gettng a chargeback from the CC company for this would be at best underhanded and at worst immoral or fraudulent. He was not charged for something he didn't approve. He was charged for something he forgot about. Chargebacks are not a refund for stupidity. The more people abuse chargebacks the less chance the CC companies will grant them to people with valid complaints. Besides, like another poster said, the second he calls the CC company he will be asked, "Was this for a subscription service you agreed to?" The CC companies are already sick to death of people buying a month's pr0n subscription online and then calling 30 days later trying to get their money back for those "obviously fraudulent" charges that appeared on their bills.

The only respectable thing for the original poster to do is to admit to himself he forgot to cancel the account, pay the $50 and learn a lesson from this.

Re:It sounds to me like they gave you ample warnin (1)

richie2000 (159732) | more than 10 years ago | (#8199106)

failing to fully understand his responsibilities when he entered into a business contract with Microsoft.

Now, where's the Goatse.cx site when you need it...

Re:It sounds to me like they gave you ample warnin (1)

Dachannien (617929) | more than 10 years ago | (#8199679)

+ ~$100 (your time and effort coming to court)

Do you not watch The People's Court? The judge will toss that part of your suit in the round file. Well... possibly depending on your locality, anyway.

Re:It sounds to me like they gave you ample warnin (1)

PktLoss (647983) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198382)

I picked up one of the 12 month packs back when they were first released in Canada, after getting it home I spent about 25 minutes getting it set up (running a cable - 1 minute, entering informtation - 24minutes). I have a longish last name (10 letters), and kept messing up something in my address (also long) so I had to re-enter all the information from scratch.
I only remember a welcome screen after that, and options for MotoGP and Whacked!.

When I later spoke to people at X-Box Technical Support (i had to get mine repaired) they explained to me that they took my CC# down during the set up process to ensure I would have a method to continue the service in the future. I very much felt that I would be involved in any sort of re-billing option.

Re:It sounds to me like they gave you ample warnin (1)

johnnliu (454880) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198412)


I kind of agree, this kind of business practice doesn't really sound all that different from most other re-curring credit card charges.

When I change ISP, I have to give them 3 months prior notice (because I pay quarterly), it seems to be the same deal.

Sucks I know, but I don't think there's really a legal response.

Re:It sounds to me like they gave you ample warnin (1)

Dachannien (617929) | more than 10 years ago | (#8199690)

Well, the fact that you know how long your original subscription was for, and that you were warned about the autorenewal and the refund policy, will probably screw you over. But the part about being re-notified via e-mail is bogus, because e-mail has no verifiable paper trail (snail mail postmark will probably get you/them through small claims court, though).

Sorry (-1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8198026)

But you asked for/deserve it by giving Microsoft your money. I never have and never will.

Re:Sorry (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8198169)

I never have and never will.

So how many pirated copies of Windows and Office do you have, anyway?

Re:Sorry (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8198178)

Wow, you've never given any money to Microsoft? You're my hero! Hey, let's all worship AC because he said MS sucks!

Yeah, great. You hate MS. Unfortunately they're not at fault here, it's the idiot that gave a company (could be any company, mind you) the authority to charge his card, and then got pissed when they did just that.

Re:Sorry (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8199609)

You never bought a computer?

Like taking candy from a baby! (0, Troll)

puff the barbarian (709196) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198032)

Oh my gosh! Microsoft has like 45+ billion dollars in cash, and they feel the need to resort to stealing $50 from recent college grads to pad their accounts a little more, and then say something like "No! You can't have it back! Nyah nyah nyah!"

Re:Like taking candy from a baby! (1, Funny)

TheWanderingHermit (513872) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198183)

Oh my gosh! Microsoft has like 45+ billion dollars in cash, and they feel the need to resort to stealing $50 from recent college grads to pad

How do you think they got all that money?

Re:Like taking candy from a baby! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8198552)

from morons that bought an xbox in the first place.

Nice one troll (1)

orthancstone (665890) | more than 10 years ago | (#8199051)

Good thing it isn't stealing if the person agreed to give you the money and gave you the info you needed to obtain it. Next thing we know, you'll say a personal check is an invalid form of payment...

Re:Nice one troll (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8199642)

Troll is the wrong term. Since he's ranting about MS, he's a karma whore.

Tell your credit card company (2, Informative)

Tom7 (102298) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198038)

Whenever someone charges your credit card without authorization, you have the recourse of telling your credit card company to deny the charges. They'll start an investigation in which the charger will have to prove (to some measure of proof which probably varies from cc company to cc company) that you requested the charge and that the services/goods were rendered/delivered.

The few times I've done this (with American Express) I've gotten the charges refunded with very little work on my part. YMMV, but it has a good shot of working, and it puts the onus on MS Live to get the money rather than on you.

Chargeback! (4, Informative)

I Be Hatin' (718758) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198044)

So call your credit card company and have them refuse to pay MS. I believe most credit cards give you 60 days to contest charges, starting from when the charge is received. Most likely, they'll just take the charge off your credit card statement, and you won't have to deal with it again. Either MS will back down, or your credit card will eat the cost (and pass the expense on to all of us through higher interest rates), but either way it won't be your problem...

If you're real anti-MS, you can probably call your Better Business Bureau and get them involved first, since it sounds to me like you have a pretty reasonable case against them.

At least pro-rate... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8198045)

They should at least pro-rate and refund the difference between when you cancelled and the end of the next renewal period.

Since XBOX's have unique identifiers, how hard is it for them to find out in their logs, the last time you used it anyways.....

Buy another one (1)

sirmikester (634831) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198054)

Well if you're stuck with it you might as well use it. Buy another xbox and use your subscription.

OR you could sell your subscription on ebay? At least you'd get something for it.

Re:Buy another one (1)

jmt9581 (554192) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198567)

That'll teach 'em! Since you won't refund my money, I'm going to buy a replacement XBox and give you MORE money. How do you like dem apples?

Seriously though, selling the subscription doesn't sounds like such a bad idea, if the subscription isn't tied somehow to your hardware.

Re:Buy another one (1)

Louis Guerin (728805) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198890)

Except that XBox hardware is a loss-leader, and being as he already has the games and the Live! pack, he'll actually be costing MS money.

So, let's recap: Costs him money, costs MMS money. Who gets the money?

L

Re:Buy another one (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8199377)

You're stupid. Everybody who thinks buying Xboxes forces Microsoft to lose money is stupid.

It's flawed logic, and the fact that this has been pointed out time and time again is depressing. Louis, get a clue.

Re:Buy another one (1)

Squidgee (565373) | more than 10 years ago | (#8199941)

Uh...

Let's contemplate this. Yes, MS does eat something for every Xbox. However, if you don't buy that Xbox and instead let it rot on the shelf, does MS lose more money? Yes. If you buy it, does MS lose less money? Yes. If your goal is to hurt them, then don't buy an Xbox in the first place.

Oh, and I own one and love it. Steel Battalion, CSkies, and Halo all rock.

Call your credit card company (2, Informative)

bigbigbison (104532) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198072)

I got burned in a similar way by Gamespot complete. I joined a year ago. I got at least once a month spams from them which I eventually just started deleting without reading. Then one month I had a weird charge on my card. If I recall correctly, it didn't even say gamespot on it and I had to call the number on the bill to figure it out (I may be misremembering that part).

Anyway apparently one of those spams they sent me was a reminder that they were going to autorenew my membership (which I had forgotten i had even had). So I called them up to complain and they were all "Did you read the terms of service?" well, yes -- A YEAR AGO. The operator game me additude. I hung up called my credit card comapany told them i didn't want to pay that charge. Blingo, charge was erased from my bill.

Re:Call your credit card company (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8198336)

Everything in your story is your fault.

Sorry, but this sounds like pure bull (1)

orthancstone (665890) | more than 10 years ago | (#8199066)

I have Gamespot Complete. I've had it since it was created.

Near the end of my yearly membership they emailed me multiple times saying I had to physically renew it, even having to reenter the credit card, address, and other personal information.

You, sir, are an asshat. (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8198123)

If I have this straight, your argument is approximately as follows:

You: "Hey, I didn't use my wireless phone at all this month - why are you charging me for it?"
Phone company: "You initiated service with us, agreed to the service contract and set up auto-pay using your credit card number."
You: "But you never sent me a paper bill to my new address!"
Phone company: "Oh, so you moved without telling us? How were we supposed to send you the auto-bill receipts if you didn't tell us when you moved?"
You: "This fucking sucks! I'm going to post on Slashdot!"

Stop whining. You are responsible for your neglegence - not Microsoft. You *asked* them to charge you.

Moral of the story is: Don't buy shit you're not going to use, then act all suprised when you actually have to pay for it.

Re:You, sir, are an asshat. (3, Informative)

hattmoward (695554) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198378)

I agree that the OP should have known that service would renew, but there is one problem I see here... Why does everyone convince themselves that Email is in any way reliable? Legally, you can't count anything as contacting someone at all unless you personally speak to them. Besides, doesn't MS use a correct sender address? Did they not receive the bounce from their email? Why was there a name, address, and phone number in their database too? Don't email bounces go into a 'problem' queue for a human being to handle? Regardless of what the OP agreed to, most CC banks do not allow blanket transaction aggreements like in the XBox Live TOS, and will happily issue a chargeback if there is a dispute. Microsoft is doing irresponsible business, so after you call your card company, give the BBB a ring also.

Re:You, sir, are an asshat. (1)

Bitsy Boffin (110334) | more than 10 years ago | (#8199861)

While you're right of course - if Microsoft had common sense here they'd click up the usage report for his account, see that he hasn't used it in x months and realise that this is a legitimate request.

I've been in similar situations (not with MS) and usually if you talk nice you can get at least a partial credit.

The point is, he hasn't really cost MS anything for that time, he legitimatly forgot he had that account, legitimatly didn't get the reminders, and legitimatly didn't use thier service for a couple of months.

MS should have the grace to credit him some or all of the amount in the name of customer relations.

Re:You, sir, are an asshat. (1)

Squidgee (565373) | more than 10 years ago | (#8199910)

So you're saying the onus is on MS to check whether or not he's been using it? I don't know, but it seems to me he could have, say, canceled the account once he wasn't using it?

It's hardly MS's fault this nitwit didn't cancel his account. He engaged in a contract to pay; you expect MS to suddenly allow him to back out once he owes them money?

XBox you say? (5, Funny)

GeorgeH (5469) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198127)

If this were a reoccurring fee with TiVo or Apple or a Linux company, I'd say that you had fair warning and it's your fault for not protecting your money. I'd say that these things happen from time to time and the best thing to do is to suck it up and learn from the experience.

But since this is Microsoft they have maliciously cheated you out of your money and you should do everything you can do to get it back. Call your credit card company and accuse them of fraud. Do it so that they don't extend their IE monopoly into the game console arena and so they'll give away all their source code under the GPL!

If this were some company that Slashdot wasn't predisposed to I'd probably have advice somewhere in the middle of those two answers.

Re:XBox you say? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8198264)

I was once triple-billed for a service on the M$N zone, when I disputed the charges my money was promptly refunded, my IP and username and creditcard were promply banned from the zone.

Yeah, MS is bad, but it's not 100% their fault... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8198133)

Let me get this straight, you didn't bother to check your credit card statements until months after you got them, then found that you'd been charged for a service that you had forgotten to cancel. So Microsoft's only fault is not going out of their way to let you know that your Xbox Live subscription would be renewed, the rest is your forgetfulness and/or laziness.

What you can do now: dispute the charges with your bank/CC company. Or keep calling MS and hope you get a sympathetic person on the phone.

What to do next time: Read your statements more than once a year. Make sure you cancel any renewing accounts that you aren't using (mark it in a calendar if you need to).

And yes, it is your responsibility to keep your info up to date. MS (and any other company you do business with) has no idea when you change emails, phone numbers, or addresses unless you tell them. And if you forget to tell them, it's hardly their fault that they can't remind you to cancel that account you're not using or they'll renew it.

Re:Yeah, MS is bad, but it's not 100% their fault. (2, Informative)

jgoemat (565882) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198366)

That's not really fair. If you read the article carefully, they "renewed" his account on November 15th, but didn't actually apply the charge to his credit card until December 26th. Given that could have been the first day of his billing cycle, the company may not have mailed out his statement until January 26th, which he may have just gotten this week. At the beginning of the article he says "recently" as in maybe he stewed over this for a week or two and decided to post on /.

Chargeback rights (5, Informative)

Michael Spencer Jr. (39538) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198285)

I work for a major credit card processor, First National Merchant Solutions, but I don't usually handle chargebacks. I'm still at work though, so I asked a coworker who does.

You're probably curious about chargeback rights. This is where you talk to your bank, explain why you believe that charge wasn't fair or valid, and ask them to get your money back. I'm going to describe these chargeback rights.

"Merchant" means a business who is charging your card. "Cardholder" is you. "Issuer" is the bank that issued your card.

The merchant must have given you prior notice that they were going to bill you. I'm not familiar with the terms & conditions you agreed to, but they may have given you this notification when you signed up.

If you called and cancelled the service within a reasonable amount number of days before you were billed, and they still charged you, AND you haven't received any material goods or services from them, you can charge the sale back.

Also if you never received notification that they were going to charge your account again, you can charge the sale back.

You probably can't charge the sale back claiming that they never provided the goods or services you requested. They will probably claim that your account has been capable of logging in and accessing the service, so they will argue that meets their fulfillment obligations.

I'll refer you to my company's "Chargeback Case Studies" section of its web site. http://www.foomp.com [foomp.com] -- click on "REFERENCE DESK" at the top center, then click "Fraud & Loss" at the fourth link down in the body of the page. This section of the site describes the common chargeback reasons, and gives a case study for each chargeback type. This list doesn't include all of the rare chargeback types out there, but it's most of the common ones.

Keep in mind you can't argue a chargeback case like a lawyer. You can't say you called him to cancel...and you already returned the merchandise...and you never received the merchandise...and you've never heard of this merchant before now. You must pick one reason and go with it. If you pick a weak chargeback reason and the chargeback is reversed, you may not get another chance to file another chargeback with a different reason. (You will probably be allowed to rebut the merchant's allegations, making this a 'second chargeback'.)

If you feel you're entitled to a chargeback (because you read about a chargeback case study very similar to your situation) but your bank insists you cannot charge the sale back, the bank may be in violation of Visa/Mastercard regulations. If you feel they are, complain to Visa or Mastercard. You could find out the bank was right all along -- or the bank could find out you were right. If the bank was in error, they could be fined by Visa/Mastercard or (in VERY extreme cases) have their rights to issue those cards revoked.

The opinions expressed above are mine, and not necessarily those of my employer. We are an "acquirer" -- we provide services to merchants, so we're used to helping businesses who are on the defending side of chargeback disputes. Acquirers don't usually go around giving customers advice anyway.

--Michael Spencer

Acutally, this just happened with me (3, Informative)

PktLoss (647983) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198287)

Actually this just happened to me.

I noticed in December a charge on my CC from Microsoft Online Services. I was quite surprised as, like you, i had not used X-Box live for several months (read 8), and had expected to be involved in any sort of re-bill process (ie a message on the X-Box). The whole Live! sign up process was very difficult, with a whole heck of a lot of questions, and I was under the impression that they took down my CC only to confirm i was age for some of the content. I found it ludicris that I needed to give my CC# to the company whose service I had already paid for at the store...

I caught it quicker than you did, and called them in December and spoke to someone there (3 forwards and 20 minutes on hold later) who eventually relented and offered a refund. I waited over a month and saw nothing on my CC. So I called back on the 3rd, spoke to someone else who said that they had cancelled the service, I had a credit on my account, but they wern't actually planning on sending that refund to my card. After more haggling, more hold time etc, they agreed to refund my card.

All in all X-Box Live! was a difficult, expensive service to sign up for with unclear purchasing terms. I'm not happy with it, but I should have my money back soon....

Re:Acutally, this just happened with me (2, Interesting)

PktLoss (647983) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198307)

Oh, One foot not sorry.

The email account I registered with is active and I check it regularily, i was not sent a message regarding being re-billed.

Interesting question about the TOS for X-BOx Live though, if your TV is too small to actually read the TOS, and thats the only place you see a lot of it, can they hold you to it?

Yes. (1)

Inoshiro (71693) | more than 10 years ago | (#8199092)

A legally binding contract is a legally binding contract when you sign it, even if you're a whiney bitch.

Plus, they do mention that all TOS for Xbox Live! are on Xbox.com right in plain sight [xbox.com] ! Plus, they even give you a nice login message whenever they change it.

Re:Yes. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8199420)

being unable to read TOS = being a whiney bitch

Inoshiro bit-o-wisdom #1779

Do exactly this. (1)

dtfinch (661405) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198292)

Complain. Complain to your CC company. Complain Microsoft. Complain to press. Call them criminals. Maintain that you haven't used their service in over 6 months. Tell them everything you told us.

Just dispute the charges, but HURRY UP! (2, Insightful)

ezraekman (650090) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198364)

First off, call your credit card company/bank RIGHT NOW and dispute the charges. You'll probably be fine.

Legally speaking, he short answer is this: if you clicked "I agree" to anything, you're technically bound by it, so long as it is legally enforceable in your state. If the agreement said they were going to charge you, it's not their responsibility to track you down and remind you of it; you've already agreed once. If however, they sent you an e-mail saying that they were going to charge you for it after you agreed to something else that was free, that's technically credit card fraud.

That said, the slightly longer answer is good news: So long as you catch a given charge early enough, most disputes will probably be in your favor. This will, of course, depend on your bank. But I've rarely had problems, and I've never had to pay an unauthorized charge in the end.

The exact policy will vary from bank to bank and credit card to credit card. The general rule is that you can file a dispute with them for any charge within sixty days of the charge; NOT sixty days from the product and/or service. This includes electronic funds transfers and other debits, and electronically processed checks, check-by-phone, etc. if it's a bank... though not for checks with your signature on them. Some financial institutions will allow longer time-frames for some or all types of charges. Some make distinctions between blatant fraud, and "normal" situations like these, where a vendor charges for a product or service that does not live up to what was promised.

Microsoft's policies may very well be that they won't process a refund after sixty days. However, it's not like they can prove you've actually used it, since your X-box has been out of commission since before that time. This will only matter later, if they dispute your dispute. Odds are, they won't, since they won't have a signature on file... unless you were foolish enough to mail something into them. ;-) As far as your bank/credit card company is concerned, you've got until February 26th (i.e. 60 days after the CHARGE) or later, depending on their policies. Check it out. Remember, it's the SIGNATURE that matters most, and you can sometimes get out of it even then. You just have to demonstrate that you received less than you were promised for the charge, something that isn't that difficult in the litigious society that we live in.

File the dispute, and you should be fine. From a social engineering perspective, I have found it useful to detail this process to the customer service rep you're speaking with, explaining that you will simply file a dispute with your bank and you'll get your money back anyway, in addition to causing their credit-card processor to charge them extra fees for the chargeback. Show them that it would just be less trouble for everyone involved if they will simply issue a refund. If you are clearly knowledgeable and they also understand the situation, they often back down... because they know that it's true and will only cost them more. But be nice about it. If you are to firm, you'll just piss them off and they make you go through it anyway, just to make your life harder. Because they also know that it's not costing THEM more; just the company.

Here's your opportunity to gouge the company everyone's always complaining about, on their own ground: legally. ;-)

Keep this from happening again. (3, Insightful)

base3 (539820) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198384)

Use a single use credit card number, such as Private Payments from American Express. That, or buy a Webcertificate for exactly the amount of the first year's subscription. I've found these useful for buying services that I only want once, but either won't sell the service or charge an outrageous fee for not using recurring billing.

Perfect Example for One Time Use CC numbers (2, Insightful)

RevRagnarok (583910) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198394)

This is the perfect situation for one time use numbers (the one I personally use is MBNA ShopSafe). If it is a $19.99 annual fee (I have no idea what it is, I use PS2 and PC games), then you create a credit card with a spending limit of $20 (and 11 month expiration). They cannot charge you more than that. Then, one of two things happens. (1) After 11 of the 12 months they call you with a friendly reminder that your card expires soon - so you either cancel then or go and increase spending limit and expiration of fake credit card. (2) After 12 months, they try to charge to a now expired card, fail, and either contact you or your service is just shut off. If you wanted the service back, call them up and give them a new card number. :)

- RR

Try MS again, then your CC company (1)

jgoemat (565882) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198472)

You have to get on it immediately, you only have so often after you receive your bill if you try and get your money back through your credit card company.

Try Microsoft again, call them and also write them a letter. When you call them, don't be abusive, but be a pain in the ass and don't get off the phone until you get the refund or talk to the Supervisor, then HIS manager. The supervisor may say that the manager isn't working right now, then just keep the supervisor busy as long as you can. Ask them to provide a list of every time you've accessed the service. Ask them to provide you with the agreement to have the recurring charges take place. Ask them to send you the document you signed to authorize this. Ask them to send you any proof they actually sent the notification email as you have never received it. Automatically recurring fees every year without giving you the option to opt-out are ridiculous. It's just too easy to forget to cancel... I think companies count on that, I wonder how many recurring payments are people that just forgot to cancel...

I work for a cell phone company and we had quite a problem with credit card fraud. We would have hundreds of fraudulent refills over the automated phone system each month. We would get a notice from VISA with information on the dispute, and they'd take $15 from our account. We then had two weeks to send VISA a document the cardholder signed authorizing the charges. Since they refilled over the phone, we didn't have one of course. Since we couldn't provide one, they'd take the money out of our account to give back to the cardholder along with another $15 fee.

If Microsoft won't give you you're money back, call your credit card company and dispute the charge. What I would do is say that I never authorized the charge and never received any service (you didn't if you haven't played on X-BOX live again), ask them to prove that you did. If Microsoft doesn't have a signed piece of paper they can send in, they won't win. Don't mention that you signed up for the service that renews each year, concentrate on the single charge that is in dispute.

Waah. (0, Troll)

smileyy (11535) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198511)

nt

Someone I know experienced the same thing (1)

superpulpsicle (533373) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198533)

I have a friend who's an xbox freak. He cancelled his subscription due to some very long term traveling overseas.

He battled with M$ support nearly an entire month before they would stop charging him. No, he never got a refund.

When I read this post it reminds me of the same type of BS. Since I am a PS2 owner, I have no idea how all these xbox-live subscription really goes.

Chargebacks (0)

Hexxon (151978) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198577)

You Have Up To 3 Years To Initiate A Chargeback With Your Credit Card Company. 90% Of The Time The Consumer Will Win, Especially Since There Is No Signature, If They Have No Signature From You, They Have No Case.

Re:Chargebacks (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8198775)

You Have Up To 3 Seconds To Learn How To Type.

your own fault (1)

schwartzon (552831) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198959)

You really screwed the pooch with this one. First of all, your argument hinges upon microsoft not being aware that you had disconnected/changed your email address. They clearly took steps to inform you of the upcoming charges, which were ineffective partially because of your neglect. So therefore, your argument is invalid. My Xbox Live account just came up for renewal myself, but unlike you i planned in advance. By giving M$ a credit card number that i generated online with my banks propriatary software (MBNA Shopsafe). When the renewal charge tried to go through, it was unsuccessfull. I then recieved a nice letter in the mail from M$ alerting me to this. If you had only done something similar, or even more simply...alerted microsoft of your change in email address, you would have been better off. Your only chance is to call your bank and dispute the charges.

Read the EULA (1)

Osmosis_Garett (712648) | more than 10 years ago | (#8198972)

That should answer all your questions.

Re:Read the EULA (1)

Baby_with_a_nailgun (669757) | more than 10 years ago | (#8199674)

I was called round to a friend's house when he was installing Live because he wanted me to set up his Windows ICS to share his broadband with the Xbox. I noticed where it said about payemnt renewal and specifically pointed out to him that it would take the money - unspecified amount at the time - unless he gave sufficient notice (a month or so beforehand).
Am I in a minority that looks at charge agreements when giving card numbers to other people?

the reverse happened to me (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8199154)

i cancelled the card i used to sign up with in november. last month i remembered that i had to resubscribe, and bought a renewal at bestbuy. when i went to the xbox dashboard i saw that i had till nov 2004 remaining. never got a bill, returned the renewal.

Underhanded tactics (2, Interesting)

Slashdot Insider (623670) | more than 10 years ago | (#8199163)

I called to have the fee refunded, and Microsoft refused. They informed me that since it had been longer than 60 days from when my account was renewed, I was not eligible for a refund. The problem lies in that they didn't charge my credit card until December 26, despite renewing my account on November 15.
That does sound underhanded. If you receive your monthly statement around the middle of each month, by the time the December statement comes in at the middle of January, it would have already been too late for a refund. Bastards.

Re:Underhanded tactics (1)

Squidgee (565373) | more than 10 years ago | (#8199885)

Buh?

They informed me that since it had been longer than 60 days from when my account was renewed

Therefore, if the statement comes mid-January, it's only been about 20 days, well under the 60 day limit. Sounds to me like this guy plain old didn't pay enough attention to his monthly statements.

very difficult to cancel (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8199448)

I had a similar problem. I wasn't able to find any settings to stop the xbox live auto-renewal but realized my credit card would expire before then. I did still receive a letter saying I owed $50 in renewal charges.

The letter asked that I fix the problem with my credit card or:
1. call an 800 number
* turns out to be an MSN support number.
2. or go to www.xbox.com/support
* redirects to a page with a list of games.

I was considering trying xbox live again some day, but after waiting on hold and trying the website and transferring and waiting on hold again and listening to their elevator music breakup over my cellphone continuously, it's enough to never want to touch it again.

Call your credit card company. (1)

two_socks (516862) | more than 10 years ago | (#8199951)

Call your credit card company and tell them you want to dispute the charge.

I worked in a credit card company for about 3 years. Tell them you've explained the situation to the merchant and they won't fix it, and that you want to dispute it. That should be about all it takes.

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