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Computer Engineering Degree Most Valuable

michael posted more than 10 years ago | from the wifi-enabled-mortarboard dept.

The Almighty Buck 818

Anonymous Squonk writes "CNN reports on the National Association of Colleges and Employers quarterly salary survey. Computer Engineering degree holders once again command the highest starting salaries at an average of $53,117, but Chemical Engineering is gaining rapidly, and Computer Science graduate's salaries are up 8.9% over the year before. Most of the other geek disciplines rank high on the list as well." While starting salaries for some degrees are up, the overall situation is not very good - indeed, your salary may be decreasing.

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Good luck to new graduates! (5, Insightful)

ChaoticChaos (603248) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200761)

Wow, that starting salary must be appreciated by all 5 graduates who were able to find jobs.

Honestly, until something is seriously done by the government and companies (determing a percentage that can be offshored, completely redoing the tariffs in the so-called "free trade" agreements, etc.), it's difficult to make a case for going to a college or university. To train for what? Everyone behind a desk is vulnerable to being offshored.

Thankfully, Lou Dobb's program is putting the spotlight on this issue each evening! Tonight, he's going to focus on the companies who are the worst abusers of offshoring. Last night, he focused on the owner of a Tool and Die shop who is complaining that "free trade" has ruined his business and it's about to go under. His specific complaints were that tariffs on his stuff going to China is 29.9%. Stuff coming from China to the US has a tariff of 3%. In Mexico, they freely use and dump chemicals that he would go to jail for dumping. This is free trade? Our elected officials agreed to this? Holy cow! The playing field is not level or even close to being level.

Until the tariffs are equal and labor/enviromental issues are equal with our trade partners, America is going to continue to lose jobs, companies, and wealth. Our future is slowly being flushed down the porcelin convenience. Our own beloved industry - IT - has near double-digit unemployment. Good luck to new graduates trying to enter.

MOD THIS FUCKING JEW DOWN !!! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8200817)

hook nose mother fuck

Re:MOD THIS FUCKING JEW DOWN !!! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8200843)

STFU apoo, we Americans are going to put someone in office who stops you dirty ass ragheads from stealing jobs from us. Maybe if you learn to use toliet paper and stop wiping your ass with your hand we will allow you to move to the US and work in one of our gas stations where you belong.

Re:MOD THIS FUCKING JEW DOWN !!! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8200944)

Dear Sir,

while you're waiting for your pathetic Lunix computar geek job being outsourced so that you have to go back to living in your parents' basement where you belong, how would you like a nice cup of shut the fuck up?

Sincerely,
Bush W. Limbaugh

Re:Good luck to new graduates! (5, Insightful)

Short Circuit (52384) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200836)

He's complaining that tariffs to China are much higher than tariffs from China? What's he want, import tariffs to go up?

Depressions have been started because competing companies got into tariff wars. And political fallout (steel tariffs and the EU, anyone?) gets nasty too.

Heinlein always talked about democracy being likely to fail when people voted themselves bread-and-circuses. I wish he would have speculated on the sequence of events that could cause it.

Re:Good luck to new graduates! (4, Insightful)

ChaoticChaos (603248) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200888)

What he wants is equality. Why would anyone in China buy his atificially inflated products? China's products are only inflated 3% coming into the US. That's great for US consumers! The 29.9% tariff is horrible for the American company.

How about both companies having a 3% tariff???? Better yet, until China has labor/environmental laws that are enforced, THEY should have the 29.9% tariff and he should get the 3% tariff.

Honestly, whoever agreed to these trade laws was totally asleep at the wheel.

Re:Good luck to new graduates! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8200947)

Depressions have been started because competing companies got into tariff wars. And political fallout (steel tariffs and the EU, anyone?) gets nasty too.

I can't believe this tripe got modded up. Americans don't want trade to favor American products. All we ask for is a LEVEL playing field.

Re:Good luck to new graduates! (5, Informative)

StupaflyD (729788) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200865)

I'm graduating with a Computer Engineering degree in May. While I agree that the job market is awful - I *did* obtain 16 interviews and 2 job offers. So I can claim that jobs do exist. I know more than 5 grads from my school alone who've found jobs. The job market isn't *that* bad.

Side note - this was with a 3.1 gpa from Purdue Univ... So weigh it as you'd like...

Re:Good luck to new graduates! (2, Funny)

MeWhiteHere (749770) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200898)

I graduated with a BS in Computer Science and Math with a 3.1 gpa. Could you send some of your interviews my way? :)

Computer Engineering? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8200988)

WTF does a Computer Engineer do anyway?

There are hardware engineers and software engineers. Or maybe I'm thinking of the wrong kind of engineer. Maybe Computer Engineers sit at a workstation and wear a cap with tiny stripes and shoult "ALL ABOARD!"

Re:Good luck to new graduates! (2, Informative)

mj2k (726937) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200946)

I don't know about CompE, but in nuclear the department claims that the average salary is just above $55k. I've personally known some guys with gpa's just above 2.5 that got jobs paying close to $60k with only a B.S. (some of the guys with navy nuke experience get even more). I think in all branches of engineering you get paid well if you can get a job. At this time the market seems to be saturated with CompE/CS degrees - I know a guy that's in the EE/CompE track at Texas A&M who has close to a 4.0 that's worried about even getting accepted to grad school.

Re:Good luck to new graduates! (2, Interesting)

jtwJGuevara (749094) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200961)

Our own beloved industry - IT - has near double-digit unemployment. Good luck to new graduates trying to enter.

Already feeling it on this one. I graduated in Decemeber with an Information Systems degree and am having little to no success on the job hunt. Nobody is hiring anybody straight of college as all of the jobs that are publically posted are requiring people with 3-5 years or so of working experience. What's that leave a newly graduated person like me to do? I've had professors and other people I've networked with try to hook me up, but the best I've come up with, and consequently accepted, is a temporary position for an indefinite amount administering Windows 2003 Servers and coding in VB.NET!

Of course I'm happy to find that much since it will provide that oh so valuable working experience that hardly no college graduates have. Unfortunately, most college graduates may not recieve any opportunity to gather a strong working experience and may have to turn to some other discipline.

Re:Good luck to new graduates! (4, Insightful)

Tassach (137772) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200982)

If you have a comp engineering degree, you have a whole lot of an advantage over someone with just a Comp Sci or MIS degree. Recent CompE grads are taking the lower-end programming jobs that would previously have gone to people with CS degrees, forcing the CS majors into whatever job they can find. It's a tough time to be a code slinger.

Re:Good luck to new graduates! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8200995)

Maybe its not the job market of the US, but where your at thats the problem, or maybe its just you. I'm on exchange in Baltimore, and I got a part time job while going to school, it pays $20 an hour just to help some offices. There is all kinds of jobs here, and everywhere else I have been. Also, if your getting low offers, maybe you need to polish yourself, and *ask* for more money. I know that this can be hard if your broke. The other thing you can do is write some software, like a inventory managemnt system for a small shop, or solve some problems for someone. Bitching about India on slashdot is not going to get you a job. Its like you expect employers to beat a path to do your door. Thats the total wrong attitude.
-James

Re:Good luck to new graduates! (4, Insightful)

jgalun (8930) | more than 10 years ago | (#8201018)

Honestly, until something is seriously done by the government and companies (determing a percentage that can be offshored, completely redoing the tariffs in the so-called "free trade" agreements, etc.), it's difficult to make a case for going to a college or university. To train for what? Everyone behind a desk is vulnerable to being offshored.

Yes, white collar jobs are now vulnerable to off-shoring - but far more blue collar jobs have already been off-shored. There's a reason why factory payrolls just declined for the 42nd straight month, even as total payrolls in the US increased.

Besides, off-shoring isn't the only factor in the job market. Over all, it pays to get a college degree. According to surveys (see article [salary.com] ) the average college graduate makes $17,000 more per year than the average high school graduate. Even if you go to an expensive private college at $35,000 per year, you still more than make back that cost over the course of your career.

Re:Good luck to new graduates! (2, Insightful)

ChaoticChaos (603248) | more than 10 years ago | (#8201048)

While the college degree disparity may have held true historically, we're about to see if it will continue to hold true in the age of the Internet where doing a job can be done without boundaries.

Not the First Post! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8200763)

Damn!

i call bullshit (1, Flamebait)

Tirel (692085) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200764)

53k for a computer engineering degree and 32k for a psychology degree? if only it were true! I think they got those numbers wrong somehow, my sister who just got a mba in psychology earns twice my salary even though i've been working at IBM as a senior system administrator for 6 years.

seriously, 50k? where were you when i was looking for a job?

Re:i call bullshit (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8200795)

my sister who just got a mba in psychology

Maybe she makes more because you are an idiot? Parent post is like a where's waldo for stupidiy, only the Waldo we are looking for is a coherent point, and it is a trick game, because Waldo doesn't exist.

Re:i call bullshit (4, Insightful)

andih8u (639841) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200798)

Yeah, but she has a masters versus a regular batchelor of science, or what have you. Most psychology majors I know have very low paying jobs with social services.

Re:i call bullshit (1)

rjelks (635588) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200869)

I just got this story emailed to me by my girlfriend yesterday. She went back to school to get her second batchelor's degree in psychology. She's been job hunting for a position and the salary on that list is about dead on. She's going back to grad. school nest semester because the higher degree makes a big difference in that field.

Re:i call bullshit (-1)

Amsterdam Vallon (639622) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200825)

Yeah, girls suck, don't they? She'd probably make more than you as a prostitute, too!

Re:i call bullshit (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8200851)

i'd post some kind of a retort here but you can only post twice daily and wouldn't be able to respond!

loli

Re:i call bullshit (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8200854)

the cnn article doesnt mention it, but these types of surveys are based upon 4-year bachelor degrees, not masters.

Next - those numbers in the survey represent the AVERAGE! You're trying to take one individual case and make it the value for all cases. Statistics dont work that way my friend. Wilt Chamberlin may have scored 100 points in a game once (a single individual case), but that doesnt mean every player scores 100 points every night.

curious - MBA stands for "Master of Business Administration." How the hell does one get an "mba in psychology"? Did you mean MA or MS in Psych?

Re:i call bullshit (1)

Perl-Pusher (555592) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200858)

First of all, Computer Engineers design computers, peripherial devices etc. They do not administer computers thats like comparing a bricklayer to an architect. Second a masters degree is not what they are refering to they are talking about college udergraduate degrees.

Re:i call bullshit (1)

Perl-Pusher (555592) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200893)

I hit the submit a little too early, got to remember to spell check!

Re:i call bullshit (1)

nukem1999 (142700) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200873)

My fresh-out-of-college job at a major defense contractor put me 3k behind the average. I'm certainly not gonna complain.

Re:i call bullshit (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8200973)

Then again, painting and dusting off cruise missiles isn't exactly highly qualified work.

Re:i call bullshit (-1, Flamebait)

SpudB0y (617458) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200875)

MBA= Masters of Business Administration So your sister has a Masters of Business Administration in Psychology? What University did she go to, FU? or maybe STFU?

Re:i call bullshit (1)

sinucus (85222) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200880)

The article states that salaries are possible on the decrease. How the hell can I get paid less? I'm paying my boss to work as a Network Administrator!

Re:i call bullshit (5, Interesting)

Tower (37395) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200890)

From what I recall - the college new hire salary for IBM computer engineers (B.S. degree) was ~$45-49k in 1999, $50-53k in 2001. Not sure what the current value is, though I'd expect it is in the $55k range.

MBA, MS degrees command different jobs and different salaries than what was on the survey.

The real shame is that the elementary ed teachers starting salary dropped significantly. These are people our society depends on, and it it very difficult to keep the best people for the job in there if they can get (and need) better paying work doing other jobs that don't require as much skill or talent.

Re:i call bullshit (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8200991)

she got a masters of business administration(mba) in psychology ?

Is that a type or are you just completely full of shit.

Valuable to whom? (-1)

Amsterdam Vallon (639622) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200768)

These are based on old data, I'm sure. Nearly 50% of jobs have moved to India and other countries already, and it'll only get worse.

I'd recommend medicine or law school to my son.

Re:Valuable to whom? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8200805)

You're probably right. We'll always need doctors in every town because people get sick and need to get better. But we won't always need software creators in town because the townspeople don't actually NEED them there -- the software engineering process can take place anywhere and still meet the requirements.

Why? (-1)

tofubar (631690) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200889)

Why? Are you saying we should just abandon computer work? I'm sick of all our jobs being taken and messed with. I lost my job because of outsourcing but by god someone should do something about it.

Re:Why? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8201020)

What are you doing about it though? Are you writing your congressman? The whitehouse? The Press? Or are you doing nothing? We (American Programmers) who are working and aren't working need to become more involved in politics, and not just the EFF either.

Re:Valuable to whom? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8200916)

I completely agree. The situation is terrible. If Americans want to move to India to get jobs, they aren't allowed to.

Re:Valuable to whom? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8201047)

It's about time..

tancredo time! Tancredo for President in 2008! http://www.tancredo.org/

Starting salary? feh. (5, Insightful)

Short Circuit (52384) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200778)

I'd rather know about the money I'll be making five to ten years into the job. If the company has starting salaries too high, chances are they aren't going to be around that long.

Your salary in 5 or 10 years? (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8200876)

In 5 or 10 years, your job will have been outsourced to India anyway, and you'll be unemployed, so I wouldn't worry about it.

Re:Starting salary? feh. (5, Interesting)

lukewarmfusion (726141) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200922)

Yeah, but if the beginning salary is too low - are you willing to work there for five to ten years to make your way up to what you could/should have been making when you were hired?

I'm in this exact case. I keep hearing, "you'll be rewarded down the road" and "if we're around in five or ten years, you'll have a great position because you'll have been here from the beginning." I'd rather be making a "competitive" salary now instead of hoping to get enough raises over the years to equal what I could find elsewhere.

Me first. Company second. Anyone who believes otherwise is delusional.

Re:Starting salary? feh. (1)

swordboy (472941) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200993)

Exactly.

The starting salary is proportional to a company's interest in sending this job offshore.

my $. (2, Interesting)

junkymailbox (731309) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200808)

How does this compare to the outsourcing to india?

It got bad, but it's getting better (5, Informative)

31415926535897 (702314) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200814)

When I started college over 4 years ago, the average salary of a grad (from my school, for my degree) was over $60,000/year.

When I graduated last year, it dropped below $40,000, and it was extremely difficult to find a job. I have a friend with the same computer related degree with a 3.92/4.0 gpa who still hasn't found a job yet. And yes, I know that gpa doesn't always equate to ability/productivity, but this guy is really good.

I'm glad to see that things are back on the upswing for technology, even if this is just a start.

Re:It got bad, but it's getting better (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8200883)

a Microsoft Office Specialist certificate isn't a degree.

Computer Engineering vs. Computer Science (4, Interesting)

Belisarivs (526071) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200816)

What is the difference between Computer Engineering and Computer Science? I had always thought they were different names for the same subject. Does Engineering deal mostly with the hardware aspect?

Re:Computer Engineering vs. Computer Science (2, Informative)

leerpm (570963) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200857)

Yes, I believe computer engineering is much more closely related to electric engineering. You are dealing with mostly hardware. They normally cover software too, but probably not beyond Assembly and C.

Computer science often tends to take a more abstract view of the hardware. You deal more with the details of computing/programming like algorithms and data structures.

Re:Computer Engineering vs. Computer Science (4, Informative)

Will Fisher (731585) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200900)

Most universities in the UK only offer one of these, and the courses are almost identical in content. The main difference being if you end up with a BSc or a BEng, and to an employer this difference matters a lot less than the class of degree obtained.

Re:Computer Engineering vs. Computer Science (5, Informative)

Tower (37395) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200925)

Computer engineering is often an electrical engineering base with focus on computer architecture and design, with more programming than a EE degree would give you. Computer science is primarily math and programming based, though it certainly varies between schools and individuals - you can usually tailor it to a more theoretical or practical curriculum as you prefer, though you should be getting a heavy dose of both.

Re:Computer Engineering vs. Computer Science (4, Informative)

N3WBI3 (595976) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200939)

A good CS program will focus much more on the actual science and less on the application. A good engineering program will focus much more on the process and application than the science.

Like Chem and ChemE, a computer scientist is hired to solve problems and an Engineer is to find real world applications using those solution..

Re:Computer Engineering vs. Computer Science (1)

ImWithBrilliant (741796) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200945)

Ouch. Big diff. Engineers start with the two-year engineering core at most universities before specializing in both hardware and software. I think I was programming in 4 or 5 languages by the time I graduated (building assemblers and editors) even though I specialized in VLSI design my senior year.

Re:Computer Engineering vs. Computer Science (2, Interesting)

StupaflyD (729788) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200975)

Computer Engineers can do both hardware and software.
* Hardware engineers will design ICs, program ASICs/FPGAs (VHDL), layout boards, design consumer electronics, embedded design, etc.
* Software engineers will deal with C, Assembly, (VHDL), maybe C++/Java, but that's normally CS realm.
Occasionally companies will mislabel CS majors as Software Engineers. An "Engineer" *should* be able to take/pass the FE (Fundamentals of Engineering) exams anyway to be called a true "Engineer" CS majors curiculums usually will not cover such material... [no flames on that please]

Re:Computer Engineering vs. Computer Science (1)

period3 (94751) | more than 10 years ago | (#8201036)

There's one other field Computer Engineers are typically found in - communications. They understand the software and protocols - but they are also well grounded in physics in math so that they understand the physical layer as well.

When I did my Computer Engineering degree, we could choose to specialize in software, hardware, or communications.

Re:Computer Engineering vs. Computer Science (4, Informative)

3waygeek (58990) | more than 10 years ago | (#8201012)

It depends on the school, but engineering programs usually have a hardware component that Comp Sci programs lack; the best programs will provide a balanced menu of hardware & software classes.

Back when I studied Computer Engineering at Iowa State in the mid 80s, the program was mostly the same as EE, but with the analog design classes replaced with Comp Sci.

Note also that the software component of many Computer Engineering programs tends to be of a more practical, hands-on nature, whereas many Comp Sci programs concentrate more on the theoretical aspects of programming.

I work in Human Resources (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8200818)

at a Fortune 500, and I'm responsible for our campus recruiting program.

The majority of candidates we are seeking are those with Comp Sci degrees. To any kid entering college now, take my advice - go to Washington University in Saint Louis.

We're hired from universities all over Canada and the United States, and I can tell you that the quality of hires from Washington University is far beyond that of any other school, including Waterloo, Carnegie Mellon, Caltech, etc.

Just one HR executives advice...

Re:I work in Human Resources (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8200908)

is your "HR for a Fortune 500" actually a mask for "Admissions official for Washington University"?

Re:I work in Human Resources (-1)

leerpm (570963) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200923)

Troll.. I don't believe a word. Ever heard of Stanford? or MIT? The quality of graduates from a university I have never heard of, surpasses all other schools in the US? Uh-huh...

Re:I work in Human Resources (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8200989)

It certainly may be a troll. but that's no excuse for you not having heard of WUSTL -- which is an excellent school.

Re:I work in Human Resources (1)

jgalun (8930) | more than 10 years ago | (#8201044)

The quality of graduates from a university I have never heard of, surpasses all other schools in the US? Uh-huh...

If you've never heard of WUSTL, then you clearly don't know much about computer science academic programs. It is very highly regarded in the field.

Re:I work in Human Resources (5, Funny)

savagedome (742194) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200927)

I work in Human Resources at a Fortune 500, and I'm responsible for our campus recruiting program.

That explains why you are posting AC

College DOES affect starting salary! (4, Informative)

Mukaikubo (724906) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200821)

This comes as a bit of a revelation to me. I sat and compared these figures to to my school (Georgia Tech's) published figures on average offer granted to graduates in each field, and Tech comes out consistently about 4-5 thousand higher than these figures.

If you're an out of state student.. like me.. this gets eaten up by extra loans quickly, but if you're fortunate enough to be in-state this can probably be a real help.

Re:College DOES affect starting salary! (1)

EmagGeek (574360) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200863)

I graduated from Tech with my MSEE in 2001... I've found that the numbers that the career services center gives you are highly inflated, in order to try to attract more students (money). When do you graduate? I'd be interested in following up to find out if you see the same thing..

Sad (5, Insightful)

savagedome (742194) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200838)

The sad(der) part is that nursing and elementary teaching are in the bottom five of the list with both of them going down.

Nurses and Teachers are the people who should be paid better. Oh well.

Re:Sad (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8200902)

And you would think that with the national shortage of Nurses (and it's really really bad), they would make more money... it's unfortunate that all the frivolous lawsuits take away the money that would normally be available to pay them...

Re:Sad (1)

Trepidati0n (647966) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200967)

Tend to disagree. Their "yearly salary" and their current "signing and retention bonuses" are two totally different things. My aunt last year, a nurse, made more in bonuses that her salary by shifting hospitals as soon as she could. Don't feel "too" sorry for the nurses, well at the ones who don't feel bound to any one hospital.

Re:Sad (2, Insightful)

lennart78 (515598) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200903)

Not only do they get less pay, they also have to work the longest hours (especially teachers), or the most inconvenient (nurses/medical).

I don't think anybody who works in IT has much to complain about if you compare your situation with any of theirs...

Re:Sad (4, Insightful)

linderdm (127168) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200954)

I agree 100%! There has been so much complaining about the quality of our education system in America, and how we need better teahcers, etc. yet they continue to be paid such pitiful salaries. I was shocked to see that the average salary for teachers actually went DOWN! I can't wait until this country actually starts to respect educators the way they are in other countries. There is so much emphasis on teahcers' accountability for how well the students perform, yet they get zero support.

Re:Sad (1)

andih8u (639841) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200972)

Well, you get what you pay for. When the country's full of idiots (moreso) and you can't get an operation, maybe teachers and nurses will be paid better. It'll probably be too late by then, but oh well.

Re:Sad (-1)

p2sam (139950) | more than 10 years ago | (#8201032)

Are you a communist? Who the hell are you to decide the nurses and teachers should be paid better?

Re:Sad (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8201040)

Guys and gals, it makes sense that teaching and nursing should be the lowest paying, since teaching and nursing jobs are some of the few jobs that can't be outsourced (PLUS, the more cynical observation that they don't make an instant profit and make someone rich like a slimeball CEO does).

I've been thinking long and hard about which job to switch over to (I'm now a web developer), and there are very few jobs that can't be sent overseas except for maybe street cleaner, and maybe being a maid.

Bummer.

Money... (5, Insightful)

sabrex15 (746201) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200842)

Lots of money is great, but what about the people who have a love for computing?... To me as long as I am happy with my work, the people I work with and I dont have to worry about where my next meal comes from then thats all the beans. If youve noticed, a lot of people are getting into the field JUST for the money, I'd like to see maybe 5-10 years down the road all the high money chasers go and the people who actually WANT to do this type of work stick.

Re:Money... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8200912)

(1) Write GPLed software! Help export your job (and the jobs of everybody else whose software is linked with yours) to India!

(2) Compete with lower-cost countries in support (or other FSF-approved business activity) for the Free Software YOU wrote!

(3) Profit!

Re:Money... (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8200928)

5-10 years down the road, unless we do something about it, there won't be programmers in the US anymore. If there are, we will have to be working for $5 an hour to compete with the people from Russia/Ethiopia/China/etc... We need to fix this now by removing free trade crap and saving our IT industry before it is completely gone. Fools like Bush and most CEOs don't seem to get the fact that once they've killed off the IT industry, our economy will be far too gone to save anymore.

And don't think any job is safe. What is to stop the hospitals from bringing in doctors from India using the same H1-B program that is decimating the Computer Science industry. No one may like when Habib operates on them, but it will help keep costs down.

Re:Money... (1)

sabrex15 (746201) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200983)

And that is just sad, very sad. I wish I could think of something to change that. But I guess to the money crunchers in the world quality means JACK.

Re:Money... (2, Insightful)

sinucus (85222) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200934)

I agree with you on this one. The dot-bubble is the cause for all of this. People saw money in this field and ran for a job. Now that they have been laid-off they still think they can make money in this field because of their experience. That doesn't leave much room for us, the people who have been working on computers since before we could read. I worked on a computer before I watched television. People like me are the ones pining for the jobs because we deserve them. And yes, I do make shit for money so I am most definatly working for the love and NOT the money.

Sure (-1)

0x54524F4C4C (712971) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200845)


The most demanded professions now and in the future are: 1. spam systems management and 2. pr0n systems management. This study couldn't make more sense.

But... what exactly is it? (2, Insightful)

djdanlib (732853) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200848)

The title "Computer Engineering" can mean so many things, though.

I know it was all about the internal computers from microwaves, stereos, etc. where I went to school. [rit.edu] CE people had a very good combination of IT, CS, and various microprocessor-related engineering skills.

What does it mean to you?

Re:But... what exactly is it? (1)

Boone^ (151057) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200998)

My final semester before my BSEE my University added a Computer Engineering undergraduate degree. They basically took out a bit of the analog electrical engineering and replaced it with CS courses like OS, Compilers, etc.

Region Dependent (5, Insightful)

j0hnfr0g (652153) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200849)

One thing to remember is that salaries are very region dependent, so a Computer Engineering degree may not command the highest starting salaries in your region.

Re:Region Dependent (1)

DaHat (247651) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200992)

Quite true! I live here in South Dakota and should I be offered a FT gig here at the place I've been for 9 months as an intern (two of which as a graduate with my CS degree), I'll be offered a lil over half what that article claims for CS degrees.

Why?

Substantially lower cost of living (dirt cheap auto insurance, no personal income tax, etc) as well as the low demand for computer people, think about it, when you think of a place like South Dakota? What tech companies come to mind? You know there's... Gateway and... oh yea... no one else right?

There are great places here such as Sencore, Lodgenet and plenty of other (substantially smaller) tech startups (hard to believe I know) who find SD and it's labor force exceptional for their needs.

Since 2001, Senator Daschle has been running the South Dakota Technology Summit [sdtechsummit.com] with the goal of further making SD into a place where tech companies want to be. We've got the people, we've got the work ethic and the skills... we just need more companies who need us!

Stats from the American College Board (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8200852)

Here are some stats from the American College Board:
Majors in computer engineering and chemical engineering top the list of most lucrative college degrees. Average starting salaries for computer engineers reached $53,117, up very slightly from their levels at this time last year. Starting salaries for chemical engineers, meanwhile, rose 2.5 percent to $52,563.

I thought Experience was the real kicker ? (2, Interesting)

phoxix (161744) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200855)

Or is it just me ?

The happenings at Matrox are a good example of great college grads from all the good schools with *ZERO* experience

Sunny Dubey

Re:I thought Experience was the real kicker ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8200964)

Yes, Matrox HR went all snooty. Instead of hiring real tech guys with practical experience and a real interest for the field, they hired a bunch of academic score-masters whose only skills are memorizing great heaps of academic trivia, sucking up to teachers and brown nosing their way through a social system.
Real tech people have a hard time with this kind of shit. So Matrox (Nortel as well!) got everything they deserve.

I got a MSCE! (5, Interesting)

dnoyeb (547705) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200871)

I find that most computer related degrees are "chasers." They mix well with other skills. They allow you to computerize something such as a medical thing, or an automotive thing, as you make a tool. Afterall, computers are only tools. What good is a tool without a purpose?

Well at least thats the way on the software side. I got my MSCE (oh yea, thats Masters of Science in Computer Engineering...) while working for an automotive Company. I have not changed fields and am probably not making nearly as much as I could. But I fear for job stability so I hang around.

Besides, we are adding more and more electronics to cars plus they are several automotive network technologies such as LIN, CAN, J1850, CCD, etc. Automotive field is not too bad a place for a CE.

Notwithstanding, our managers are also smoking The India Pipe(TM).

Re:I got a MSCE! (-1, Flamebait)

skaffen42 (579313) | more than 10 years ago | (#8201041)

Ah... you have a real degree. When I read that the first time I thought you were simply an MS flunky who couldn't spell. :)

Seems clear to me: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8200874)

The future lies in starting your own school. Our society seems to have solved all major problems of human existence but still insists on using the outmoded concept of work and career to keep some sort of order.
The current situation is the normal outcome of the type of society we live in. In any other field, when an idea comes to the end of its usefulness, and is replaced by a new way of doing things, the old idea is quickly dumped. Witness every bit of progress in the last 100 years.
But somehow, we still have to 'work', go to school for half yor life, and learn many many many things.
For what?

and here I'm still an intern (-1, Redundant)

DaHat (247651) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200879)

I graduated back in December and have been an intern with this company for the last 9 months... oh I hope these salaries accurately predict what I may get if they do decide to offer me a full time position... if/when that should happen.

Damn, I shoulda partied down with the CE slackers! (1, Interesting)

utahjazz (177190) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200910)

At my school (University of Utah), the primary difference between Computer Science and Computer Engineering was, you needed much better grades to get into Computer Science.

At the end of your freshman year, the top 70 students got to continue in CS, the rest have to switch to CE or EE or Art History or something. With about 200 students taking the freshman CS courses, you really had to bust ass to make the cut. Now I find out those slackers are making more than me? WTF!!!!

Geez to think of all the partying I could have done that year.

Same old story (1)

Ba3r (720309) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200929)

When i entered school I had this illusion that most entering tech students have of the fabled "average starting salary". Of course, now being a graduate, and watching very few of my peers get anywhere near that salary (and i was well above average in my dept), that school recruiting jargon is entirely debunked. The fact is some lucky bastards will nab a probably undeserved job for 100 grand, most will start out at 40 if they are lucky, and all in all, none of it will matter because it just might be that several of those who start out at 40 or less will go on to run a company rather than work for one, and make quite a bit more than the guy who has worked for 100 grand during all his 20s (and then promptly lost his job when his employers a) went bankrupt from paying a programmer so much, or b) offshored). And thats why you should not eat twinkies and speak russian.

Irrelevant? I think not.

Interesting... (-1)

GuyinVA (707456) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200940)

Maybe I should go back for my degree. Let's see, 4 years of schooling+books, etc. All for an extra $2k a year? Well, I'll stay as I am for now. Of course I understand that this is starting salary, but I didn't start too far behind that mark.

Don't get me wrong, I believe in higher learning, and education, but it's just not for people like me. I tried a couple of times, but I never could seem to make it thru a whole semester.

This sig was stolen.

Horseshit (1)

Mr. Underbridge (666784) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200999)

Maybe I should go back for my degree. Let's see, 4 years of schooling+books, etc. All for an extra $2k a year?

Please find me a job for a high school grad that starts out at $40,000.

The best advice a new graduate can hear (5, Insightful)

Loundry (4143) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200941)

"You're never going to get rich working to make someone else rich."

This was told to me while I was working as a software engineer commanding a decent salary. But I wasn't making the real money. That job belonged to my boss, who saw it fit to pay me a skim from his profit for a job I performed.

What was I to do? Whine? Talk about how "greedy" he was? Criticize him for his lack of technical skills (compared to mine)?

All of that is excrement. Instead, I chose to become an entrepreneur. I found partners, made deals, and now am in the process of opening my second restaurant as well as selling things over television and Internet. I think about business all the time, and work suddenly has become very, very fun. Life itself feels like a massively multiplayer game.

Oh, and here's another piece of advice that I learned that I wish someone had told me earlier: Anyone will loan you any some of money as long as they are convinced that it's in their best interest to do so.

Stop working for someone else. Find partners. Find investors. Find a way that you can make a business work. It's exhilirating and fascinating. And you won't go back once you are free.

And I have it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8200953)

Picking up the diploma today!

Local Support, Service, etc. (2, Interesting)

mslinux (570958) | more than 10 years ago | (#8200994)

Local jobs are not going over seas. It's the big boys that are sending jobs away, not the local Mom & Pop companies. Concentrate on those and you'll do fine. Here's all you need: Be a native born English speaking American that has a college degree and several years experience in IT. That's it.

Show the local companies how you can provide fast, high-quality service and support 24/7 and they'll pay dearly to secure your services.

Some dude or chick sitting in a cube in Bombay can't help me when 1. Their English sucks 2. I just lost a HDD from mechanical failure. My frustration level will be sky-high from having to deal with these clowns so I'd be thrilled to see a local engineer who clearly understands what I'm saying and who can be a local presence to fix these everyday IT problems. I'd pay him more too because I actually see what I'm paying for.

The moral of this story: Don't work for IBM, HP, Dell or any other mega-IT company because your job will go to India or Pakistan or China. Develop local business contacts and you'll make a killing... I do. Hell, I took several classes in PR (Public Relations) just to sharpen up my business proposals. It's a no-brainer.

I got a BBA from a pretty respectable univ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8200997)

...and I haven't made more than $11/hr in the past five years. All you $40k making bitches can choke while teabagging a goat.

Jealous? Bitter? Me?

You're goddamned right.

Wow good thing I didn't go to College (1, Flamebait)

isa-kuruption (317695) | more than 10 years ago | (#8201006)

To think if I only made $53k out of college, I'd be taking a 50% paycut.

Good thing I didn't waste my time and energy on a useless college education.

Another view from the AIP (2, Informative)

apirkle (40268) | more than 10 years ago | (#8201009)

Here's a similar chart [aip.org] from the American Institute of Physics (Fall 2003). They give a range of typical salaries for each degree type, which is an important fact - ChemE students earned 50-55k, while students with a Physics BS pulled in a much larger range, from about 32-52k.

Interesting to note that secondary school teachers seem to have the least opportunity salary-wise (as far as that chart shows); not only is their salary low, but they're locked in to the narrowest range, from about 27-32k.

Oh yeah? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8201011)

I am 27. I don't have a degree. I had some college towards a CE degree. I learnt a lot on campus (but it wasnt in the classroom .. I guess it was the access to resources/contacts).

Last year I made $100k. This year with raise +bonus looks like slightly more (assuming I dont get fired).

In the year 2000, when I was 23, I made about $120K.

If a degree is not for you, and you can gain valuable work experience. I believe that you should opt for the work experience. If you are in school .. Try to get internships and summer work .. they will help IMMENSELY, especially with the degree. Even kids in High School should try to get work experience.

I work in IT and have a background in software engineering/coding. A degree is just a way of gaining knowledge and proving that you have that knowledge. There are _other_ ways to do this.

This is only for _some_ professions(obviously dont do this if you plan on being a doctor.)

Remember this quote:

"I didn't let school get in the way of my education." -Albert Einstein.

That's the best salary? (3, Interesting)

sosegumu (696957) | more than 10 years ago | (#8201019)

Computer Engineering degree holders once again command the highest starting salaries at an average of $53,117

Here in the Midwestern US, the starting salary for a retail pharmacist is more than $80,000. Surely it's even more in other parts of the country where the cost of living is so much higher.

I wonder why they aren't included in the survey.

Education... (1)

BJZQ8 (644168) | more than 10 years ago | (#8201037)

Since I'm always posting about education, I can report that if you go into an education field (ie Technical Director) things are still going like gangbusters. In a town of less than 20,000 people, my former boss is making $90,000 a year doing little more than occupying a chair. He has little computer knowledge and depends on "consultants" for his duties. A good job if you can get it...but seriously, there is a great need for "good" computer people in education. Not ones that can toe the Microsoft line, but ones that can TRULY innovate and turn over the festering pile of compost that educational computing has become.
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