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BBC Argues Games Don't Cause Violence

CowboyNeal posted more than 10 years ago | from the wheel-of-blame-pinning dept.

Links 398

RandBlade writes "BBC News has an article on the argued link between violent games and real violence. It examines both scientific evidence, different theories and the facts in order to conclude 'that it is trite and irresponsible of ill-informed commentators to claim that games like Grand Theft Auto are central to terrible crime.'" It's good to know that gamers are not all killing machines lying in wait, or that E3 is not the most potentially dangerous convention ever.

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Poor Linux Benchmarks. (Sc.ore:5, Insightful) (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8211825)

After hearing how much the improvements in Linux performance was, I decided to do some benchmarks.

Here are the Machines I used.
AMD Opeteron 3400+ with UltraSCSI320 Hard disks
XServe G5
386SX with MFM hard disks

Copying a 17 Mebibyte file from one hard drive to another.
SCO UnixWare : 7.3 Seconds
Windows Longhorn Server beta : 7.5 Seconds.
Windows Server 2003 : 9 Seconds
Mac OS X Server 2004 : 9.5 Seconds
Windows 2000 Server : 11 Seconds
Linux 2.7 Server : 16 Seconds.
Linux 2.6 Server : 18 Seconds
MSDOS on a 386DX : 20 Seconds.
Linux 2.4 Server : 30 Seconds
Linux 2.2 Server : 48 Seconds
Linux 2.0 Server : 75 Seconds.

As you can See, Linux dosent come CLOSE to beating enterprise systems at high performance servers. EVEN Msdos from a 386SX smokes Linux!
Don't mod me down unless you can justify these speeds. It is pretty obvious by now why SCO is suing Linux, because they are stealing their code to gain speed. And yes, DMA WAS ENABLED.

Paid by MS? Watch me now: *YAWN* (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8211850)

yawn....

Re:Paid by MS? Watch me now: *YAWN* (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8211929)

odd thing is that I dont see a current MS os on there (and MS doesnt sell DOS anymore, so thats a moot point).

eat it, lunix zealot

Re:Poor Linux Benchmarks. (Sc.ore:5, Insightful) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8212123)

Windows Longhorn Server Beta?
LMAO ^^

Isn't longhorn in early alpha with no server version planned/developed?

Nonsense. (4, Funny)

grub (11606) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211826)


I can't agree with their conclusions. Three days after I bought Thief: The Dark Project [eidosinteractive.com] I was out shopping for a blackjack, dark cloak and rope arrows.

The rope arrows were a bit hard to find..

Re:Nonsense. (4, Funny)

Xpilot (117961) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211857)

I can't agree with their conclusions. Three days after I bought Thief: The Dark Project I was out shopping for a blackjack, dark cloak and rope arrows.

The rope arrows were a bit hard to find..


Hey that's nothing. Three days after I bought Tetris, I started laying bricks in the garden like crazy.

Re:Nonsense. (4, Funny)

AllUsernamesAreGone (688381) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211879)

But do they disappear when you complete a line?

Re:Nonsense. (4, Funny)

Xpilot (117961) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211920)

But do they disappear when you complete a line?

After the first 12 hours of doing it nonstop, yeah, they do!

Re: Nonsense. (2, Funny)

Black Parrot (19622) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211921)


> Hey that's nothing. Three days after I bought Tetris, I started laying bricks in the garden like crazy.

And three days after I got my first compiler, I was writing crappy code!

Offtopic as hell: Gay Penguins (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8211908)

The New York Times is reporting [nytimes.com] that homosexuality is not limited to humans.

Re:Offtopic as hell: Gay Penguins (0, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8211937)

And that is supposed to be news?!

Biologists and naturalists have known about this for ages.

I've never quite understood why homophobes like Dr. Laura have been able to claim that homosexuality is not natural because animals do not engage in it.

Now with this "new" evidence, they'll probably just spin it in another way: "it's filthy because animals do it!".

Re:Offtopic as hell: Gay Penguins (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8212129)

Yes, but as the article points out, animals have long term relationships with their homosexual partners.

Homosexual humans, however, limit their relationships to highway reststop sexual encounters and casual Port-a-Potty sex.

Re:Nonsense. (1)

GreatTeacherMusashi (717399) | more than 10 years ago | (#8212048)

I've always said, Kirby is responsible for obesity, cuz damn no matter how hard you try you can't get the powers of those double cheese fries.....

Of Course (5, Funny)

pagaman (729335) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211828)

Of course games dont cause violence. Man do I want to kill those people who think it does....

Wrong (-1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8211832)

I was once a fervent KILLER in 3D on-line multiplayer blood&splash games. And let me tell you - it DOES influence you. Negatively.

Re:Wrong (4, Insightful)

pe1rxq (141710) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211878)

Ever thought that the game wasn't the cause of your problems but just a way for them to come out?
The problem is that some people can be easily influenced, that on itself is a problem, subjecting such kids to mushroom policy isn't going to help....

Jeroen

Mushroom policy: Keep them in the dark, Feed them shit and chop their heads off when they look up.

Re:Wrong (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8212034)

no shit! I started chomping down on mushrooms after playing super mario... of course i didn't grow big or anything, but one of them did seem to make everything fancy colored.

Re: Wrong (2, Funny)

Black Parrot (19622) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211962)


> I was once a fervent KILLER in 3D on-line multiplayer blood&splash games. And let me tell you - it DOES influence you. Negatively.

Yeah, now you're a Slashdot poster!

Damn... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8211838)

I hate that guy who just wasted FP with a moron post about opterons...

I'll kill you!!!!! DIEIDIEIDIEIDEID!!!

anyways, it's good to hear my addiction to Quake III doesn't make me anymore violent =)

Well... (-1)

Jaysyn (203771) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211840)

This is a bit better than claiming FOSS Programmers cause Windows virus.

Jaysyn

really (4, Insightful)

mabhatter654 (561290) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211844)

considering most people that live the "Grand Theft" lifestyle probably never even SAW a PS2! ...they are way too poor and screwed up. GTA:VC is mostly a hollywood-syle diversion for spoiled little middle class kids...who wouldn't have the guts to walk down the streets depicted in the game anyway!!!

Re:really (-1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8211904)

Insightful my arse. "Spoiled little middle class kids" are the most dangerous demographic out there. Columbine anyone?

Re:really (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8211932)

Columbine anyone?

Okay you named one tragedy in the last 20 years. Name a couple more. Name some till it rises to the level of crime on a daily basis in the inner city.

Remember Timothy McVeigh? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8211966)

People said the same thing about "The Turner Diaries" (a novel about a racist White resistance bombing a federal building with a truck full of manure-based explosives in order to provoke a race war).

Simpsons get it right, again: (5, Insightful)

another misanthrope (688068) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211848)

Itchy and Scratchy and Marge already covered this:

Meyers: I did a little research and I discovered a startling thing...
There was violence in the past, long before cartoons were invented.
Kent: I see. Fascinating.
Meyers: Yeah, and know something, Karl? The Crusades, for instance.
Tremendous violence, many people killed, the darned thing went on for thirty years.
Kent: And this was before cartoons were invented?
Meyers: That's right, Kent.
-- `Smartline', ``Itchy and Scratchy and Marge''

Re:Simpsons get it right, again: (2, Insightful)

relrelrel (737051) | more than 10 years ago | (#8212120)

the cool thing is that you got Score:5, Insightful

Make love not war (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8211853)

I'm generally not attracted to men, but my God something about Hitler just drives me absolutely batty! That dramatic sweep of hair across his brow, like he just tossed his head and there it fell, a cascade of black like the velvet curtain of night. I want him to take me on the hood of a King Tiger, its 1400 horsepower engine revving as he violates the virginal secrets of my Eagle's Nest.

I picture it like those glorious mass rallies the Nazis used to have. There he is lovingly pounding away at my second front while legions of goose-stepping Aryans march past and salute our union. Just as Hitler is about to empty his tiny ubermenschen into the expanse of my Liebe-raum a wing of Stukas will fly overhead, their sirens howling in synchronicity with the primal cries of pleasure from Der Fuehrer.

My god, what a man!

Re:Make love not war (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8211994)

Now that was just insane...

Sorta apology from BCC? (-1, Offtopic)

LordKazan (558383) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211861)

They piss off the linux community so then they post an article they they think the linux community will appreciate.

Apology of sorts?


Probably not, but food for thought

Re:Sorta apology from BCC? (5, Funny)

fafaforza (248976) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211897)

C'mon. If you're a gamer, Linux is the last platform you look to, right after Windows, consoles, handhelds, cards, dice, and watching paint dry.

Re:Sorta apology from BCC? (1)

gweihir (88907) | more than 10 years ago | (#8212044)

C'mon. If you're a gamer, Linux is the last platform you look to,...

Can't agree. Linux is very nice for surfing, managing Windows backup, pre[aring Windows installation, reading news,...

The one thing it does not work well for is actually running games. I hope that will change in the future because keeping Windows alive is a pain.

Re:Sorta apology from BCC? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8212055)

Thats an exaggeration. Macs are just as bad as GNU/linux gamewize, aren't they?

Re:Sorta apology from BCC? (4, Interesting)

PhoenixFlare (319467) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211911)

Umm, i'm not really sure about that.

I'll probably get blasted for stereotyping here, but many of the "hardcore" linux users and programmers i've observed don't seem to really see the point of/don't want to play video/computer games.

I think that's one reason why some people can't fathom somebody staying with Windows - Linux may rox0r in almost every other way possible, but when it comes to just being able to grab any old game off the shelf and play it, it's just not there yet. Some people just aren't willing to give that up, no matter how bad Windows' other faults may be.

Re:Sorta apology from BCC? (2, Insightful)

pirhana (577758) | more than 10 years ago | (#8212004)

Actually when I read your post, I found myself in it. I have been using linux exclusively for more than 4 years(for both work and home). I am very happy with it also. I just can't stand windows. I used to wonder why people(even slashdotters) would stick with windows ? then I realised that there was something wchich I never go after and for these people its something without which they cannot live. Its GAMES. This is the single most important thing holding many people from migrating to linux IMHO. I have not played any game for more than a minute ever in my life. I am not underestimating games. I am just saying that there are people like me who love linux and spend their life with it without playing any game.

Re:Sorta apology from BCC? (1)

johnhennessy (94737) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211942)

I'd imagine you meant BBC.

I'm sure BCC has something to do with email, but I could be wrong. :)

Re:Sorta apology from BCC? (1)

Patrik_AKA_RedX (624423) | more than 10 years ago | (#8212117)

BCC: visability challenged Carbon Copy.

Quote (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8211863)

"These media types make us out to be dangerous, violent, ready to snap and kill people on a daily basis; which is just a damned, nasty lie - I haven't killed anyone in weeks."

yet (5, Insightful)

WormholeFiend (674934) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211868)

violent games and the statistically insignificant, high-profile gamer-related violent crime are very popular scapegoats.

think of the children! especially the ones we don't want to take responsability of raising!

BBC talk bollocks (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8211876)

re: the opensource virus writers story from earlier this week...

Please think of the children (5, Insightful)

October_30th (531777) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211877)

It examines both scientific evidence, different theories and the facts in order to conclude

Scientific theories and evidence have never been any good in convincing the hysterical please-think-of-the-children crowd. These people have already made their minds and nothing will change their position.

Re:Please think of the children (4, Insightful)

Trelane (16124) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211890)

Scientific theories and evidence have never been any good in convincing the hysterical please-think-of-the-children crowd. These people have already made their minds and nothing will change their position.


The same can be said of the other party in this debate, fwiw.

Minister Prime (0, Redundant)

cloudwilliam (517411) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211882)

That seems like a pretty irresponsible conclusion from a widely respected news organization. Has the BBC recently uncovered evidence of Tony Blair's PlayStation 2?

hah (0)

Dogers (446369) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211885)

Games dont cause violence, blasphemous BBC news articles about linux spreading virii do!

The videogames are NOT at fault. (5, Insightful)

cy_a253 (713262) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211888)

The people you kill in videogames are not real.

The danger arises when something goes wrong in someone's mental development and that person comes to believe that people's lives *in reality* are worth nothing, just like in videogames.

This "sliding" of definition (imaginary people = real people = ok to kill) is NOT caused by videogames. Someone who is mentally unstable enough to kill over a videogame would be triggered as well by violent movies, books or his own violent mental imagery.

Re:The videogames are NOT at fault. (3, Insightful)

Henry V .009 (518000) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211967)

But surely a person's "mental development" that you refer to is not entirely biological? Culture plays a large role in crime. Look at the crime boom in the 60s.

There are a lot of factors that go into whether or not a person turns into a criminal. The media is not the biggest one, but it is not a small one either. And since low IQ is also a very big factor, video games and movies are generally far more dangerous than books will ever be.

Motivations (5, Insightful)

johnhennessy (94737) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211894)

You often hear people claiming that games/films influenced their actions but at the end of the day its a cop out for taking responsibility for their own actions.

People have been taking inspiration from Art for years - whether film, books, or in more recent time you could claim video games. No one forces people to read these books, watch these films or play these games - they choose to. If someone decides to go nuts, its their own personal decision - a game doesn't make that decision for them. Now the manner in which they go nuts - thats a different story.

Re:Motivations (1)

yuud (690436) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211915)

I know what you're saying, but I think the main thing is that they _are_ nuts and so don't have full control over their decision making. However you coul d argue that such people should be supervised if they are mentalled challenged.

Metrics ... Foundation? (1)

handy_vandal (606174) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211902)

"Social, cultural, ethical and neurobiological issues remain in ... a tangle ... Before such accusations [terrible crime] are explicitly made, more credible work has to be done in this area. Scientific conclusions may well remain elusive for decades."

More credible work? Maybe ... Asimov's Foundation? [google.com]

How far can psycho/socio metrics go?

-kgj

EXPOSURE TO COWBOY NEIL CAUSES OVEREATING (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8211910)

this explains all the dirty, fat fucks on slashdot.

cowboy neil is causing the rise of fat fuckism in the usa. KEEP YOUR KIDS OFF SLASHDOT. keep them watching replays of janet jackson's tit and they will stop eating!!

Games just desensitize children to violence (5, Insightful)

MonkeysKickAss (735143) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211924)

Games do not cause violence but they do desensitize children to violence and they don't take crimes of violence serious. When they play wrestling games they usually will imitate the wrestling moves and hurt someone without realizing it.

Re:Games just desensitize children to violence (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8212111)

This also applies to TV. There are plenty of "kids" shows which show very violent imagery, from power rangers blowing up monsters and having kung-fu fights, to the old school wile e. cyote trying to off the road runner.

All very violent, but somehow I don't hear the "oh god think of the children" trying to ban these. Oh wait, they're on TV, violence is OK on TV, just no Nipples.

Weak article (4, Insightful)

Mostly a lurker (634878) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211925)

I am emotionally in favour of the notion that games do not influence real life behaviour. The article, however, is mostly fluff. There is no concrete backup for any of the statements made. I remain unsure as to whether (and if so to what degree) games role playing can bring out violent behaviour.

blame someone (5, Insightful)

stocke2 (600251) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211926)

the big problem is no one wants to take responsibility for their actions, and some parents don't want to take responsibility for not teaching their kids well. The easiest thing for these people to do is blame someone else....and video games are just really convenient.

Re:blame someone (1)

p2sam (139950) | more than 10 years ago | (#8212078)

South Park got this covered already: Blame Canada!!

BBC does NOT argue games don't cause violence (5, Informative)

geeber (520231) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211940)

In fact if you read the article, the author only takes the controversial stance that more study is required, and no conclusion can be reached yet.

Basicly the guy says that there is no clear winner in the evolution vs enviroment debate. Then he uses Canada and Japan, where violence in games is common but murder is much more rare than the US, as an example to counter the situation in the U.S. It's a much more reasoned article than the sentationalistic headline would lead one to believe.

Kids != Adults (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8211941)

The Beeb's argument is based on the assumption that kids don't play M-rated games just as they don't see R-rated movies. I think that's completely false. For one thing, any parent that shares the common Slashdot opinion that video games don't negatively affect youth should have no compunction against buying M-rated games for their kids. Add to that the large number of clueless parents that stampede on malls in the winter, buying games willy-nilly, and you have a problem.

I think M-rated games don't influence adults negatively, but kids, with their growing, unwrinkled brains? I think there's a problem, or at least I suspect there could be one, and don't want to risk having to deal with the resultant society after the experiment's over in 15 years.

Re:Kids != Adults (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8212101)

Remind me not to moderate in article like this one again...

Anyway, I think that is a fair assumption to make. The video game industry is doing everything that anyone can expect to police themselves. They have a rating system that is compatible with the MPAA rating system, and retailers that refuese sales based on ratings. If a kid plays a M-rated game, the blame lies on the parent's shoulder. Ignorance isn't an excuse, as words like "Teen" and "Mature" are printed on the rating label. There comes a point where a parent has to stop being friend and start being a parent.

It's just a bunch of BS (4, Insightful)

Zordas (596510) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211950)

I've herd these arguments all my life and I just have one question. What video game did Hitler or Stalin play ?

Re: It's just a bunch of BS (5, Funny)

Black Parrot (19622) | more than 10 years ago | (#8212009)


> I've herd these arguments all my life and I just have one question. What video game did Hitler or Stalin play ?

Panzer General.

Re: It's just a bunch of BS (1)

Zordas (596510) | more than 10 years ago | (#8212071)

LOL ... Good Comeback !!

Video games also cause faulty reasoning! (4, Insightful)

wirelessbuzzers (552513) | more than 10 years ago | (#8212040)

Nobody claimed that video games cause all violence, just that they contribute to it, i.e. that people are more likely to be violent after playing video games. I don't have any evidence one way or another on this.

Asbestos can cause lung cancer, but lots of people have died of lung cancer without being exposed to it (say, by cigarettes).

they didn't play games... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8212053)

they read the bible.

proper object of regulation? (5, Insightful)

ir0b0t (727703) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211951)

There is a well-documented connection between actual guns and violence. Yet many would prefer to regulate simulated guns and simulated violence.

Despite studies of this nature, I worry that there will continue to be resistance (in the Western US at least) to *any* type of regulatory initiative directed at actual guns, no matter how reasonable.

Its also troubling because regulation of simulated violence presents a greater burden and risk to principles of free speech and expression --- without any corresponding social benefit except for those who object to the content of the games being regulated.

Re:proper object of regulation? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8211999)

I worry that there will continue to be resistance (in the Western US at least) to *any* type of regulatory initiative directed at actual guns, no matter how reasonable.


Which of the 20,000+ plus existing laws regulating firearms (At least in the US) aren't working?

Re:proper object of regulation? (1)

stocke2 (600251) | more than 10 years ago | (#8212027)

in case you missed somthing there is also a documented relation to real guns in the hands of citizens and a decrease in violent crime.

Re:proper object of regulation? (2, Insightful)

deacon (40533) | more than 10 years ago | (#8212056)

There is a well-documented connection between actual guns and violence

Correct.

It has been repeatedly shown that taking guns away from law-abiding citizens makes them easy targets for violent criminals, who, by definition, do not obey laws, including gun regulation laws.

Just picking an example at random, the University of Arizona is a gun-free zone, which did nothing to prevent [instapundit.com] the shooting there.

Back in my day... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8211954)

...I learned my violence from wholesome shows like Monty Python and Fawlty Towers. My poor brother Manuel might beg to differ though on the wholesome part.

True! (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8211956)

"If computer games had affected my generation as kids we'd be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music."

Re:True! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8212063)

Hmmm, then again maybe games do have an impact afterall ;-)

I've been playing..... (5, Funny)

Pure Diluted Reality (745905) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211958)

Solitare for years. No violence to date.

What Did You Expect from the BBC ? (0, Offtopic)

tealover (187148) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211964)

Their left-leaning social values tend to permeate their news and commentary coverage in most areas. Their conclusion is not surprising in the least.

I used to respect the BBC when they were a serious news organization but they now appear to believe that they are an agent of populist social change.

Re:What Did You Expect from the BBC ? (1, Offtopic)

tealover (187148) | more than 10 years ago | (#8212010)

The person who modd'd me down is indicative of the BBC mentatlity that filters "news" through its left-leaning prism. Anything that contradicts that prism is attacked. Not even the PM of Britain is safe from those attacks, so I certainly don't expect any better.

Re:What Did You Expect from the BBC ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8212047)

I suppose the American headline would of read "Games make YOU KILL".

Re:What Did You Expect from the BBC ? (2, Informative)

tealover (187148) | more than 10 years ago | (#8212098)

I'm not familiar with the "American" news organization.

In America, news organizations are private institutions that do not receive public funding.

Sums it up nicely (5, Funny)

dberton (178101) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211968)

"There's so much comedy on television.
Does that cause comedy in the streets?" -- Dick Cavett

Well (2, Interesting)

SmallFurryCreature (593017) | more than 10 years ago | (#8212037)

Cooking programs make people cook more. Each new DIY show increases the sales at DIY stores. When playbacking shows were first done I remember that all the street festivals also had a playback show.

Comedy certainly causes people to repeat bits of it or to use it as a base for their jokes. Just watch slashdot discussions sometimes.

So why not violence then eh?

Of course if that would really be reliable then we would just show comedy and romance stories and some columbo to remind everyone that the police is always smarter then the criminal and we would have a perfect world. Some playboy to make sure the next generation is ensured. Mmmmm. playboy. Wonder if that one ever been accused of cause teenage boys to become more horny

Re:Well (1)

Fulcrum of Evil (560260) | more than 10 years ago | (#8212128)

Cooking programs make people cook more. Each new DIY show increases the sales at DIY stores. When playbacking shows were first done I remember that all the street festivals also had a playback show.

All those things are socially acceptable and ordinary.

So why not violence then eh?

Because it's not a normal state? When someone unloads with an AK47, it makes headlines. Not so with cooking a roast.

It's the BBC *NEWS* service... (4, Insightful)

DrMindWarp (663427) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211969)

...so it doesn't argue anything!

It's reporters might discuss the issues but the BBC itself is not putting forward any of it's own ideas.

Can't Slashdot distinguish the message from the messengers ?

Re: It's the BBC *NEWS* service... (1)

DrMindWarp (663427) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211993)

... *its* own ideas rather.

Just violence? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8211970)

It seems a bit narrow minded just to look at violence really. What about other skills that may be gleaned from games. Is spatial awareness genetic or the result of playing games? How about risk management, resource management and decision making?

If someone is of a violent disposition, then games will satisfy their need for violence to a degree, although you cold argue that they won't be fully satisfied until they experience violence in real life. After all, computer games never give you a full experience - people who love football will much prefer to go out and play football than stay in an play FIFA Soccer 2004.

Extrapolating it from games and violence a bit, the BBC also has a story about porn sites [bbc.co.uk] . In the same way maladjusted people view violent games as somehow approving of violence as a whole, immersing yourself in websites that promote strange fetishes is likely to have an affect on your wellbeing, maybe even taking you to a point where it's ok and perfectly acceptable to do things that don't fit in with the rest of society; murder, rape, violence, stealing cars etc...

Ironically, for me, violent games are a way to let off steam. I'm sure if they were banned we wouldn't see a drop in violent crime, school shootings etc. But for me, I'd have to look for new ways of letting off aggression and anger after a bad day at work, or whatever...

In the words of Eddie Izzard (2)

luckyguesser (699385) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211972)

In the words of the very funny British "executive transvestite, thank'you" stand-up comedian: " They say that guns don't people, people kill people- but I think the gun helps, y'know?"

OK, OK, they don't cause violence but... (2, Insightful)

Cthefuture (665326) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211974)

Like so many things out there that people try to link to certain behaviours there is a certain amount of truth to it.

Be it music, TV, games, whatever, they all have some effect on most people and more of an effect on others. So if someone has tendencies towards violence then violent games may help fuel that fire. Not that they wouldn't be violent without the game, but the game probably doesn't help.

I remember my teenage years and I remember thinking that such-and-such doesn't effect me. However, looking back I can see that certain things helped justify unhealthy behavious and so I continued to do things that ended up hurting me in the end. Again, this is not to say that I would not have ever done anything like that anyway but having those fuels definately made it easier.

It would be better if people could take notice of what effects them and not do those things (be it alcohol, violent games, whatever). But people are just too stupid to do that so maybe we do need rules. Isn't that why we have laws in the first place? Too many stupid people.

re (1)

derago (582951) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211975)

in other news: BBC Argues Open Source Fanatics Cause DDOS & Virii :)

Logical piece and totally missing the point (0, Flamebait)

SmallFurryCreature (593017) | more than 10 years ago | (#8211985)

The people that claim that games cause violence are not saying that is makes americans more violent then say the japanese. They say it makes game playing americans more violent then non-game playing americans. Oh and game playing japanese more violent then non-game playing japanese.

So this article is complete and utter shit. The only comparison that would work is a country before and after exposure to computer games. Or raising one set of kids with and one set of kids without. Comparing across cultures is pointless. There are to many other factors. Perhaps they should study who are commiting the crimes. Is their a shift to game playing teens? Or all the murders in NY mafia hits? Or commited by women tired of being beaten up by their husbands? If there is a shift from mafia hits to kids killing each other for copies of GTA then yeah I would say the link is clear. Until then don't confure the issue with statistics.

However there has been a country that until quit recently had a ban on TV and therefore console games. Some kingdom in asia, to lazy to check its name. They allowed tv and have since seen a rise in crime. Of course it was discussed on slashdot and the same people that don't think games can cause violence didn't think the tv could have anything to do with it.

I ask these people this. Have you listened to kids who play games like GTA? It is like hearing a bunch or miniature rappers talk. They are not talking about a game they are talking about a fantasy world of violence and bloodshed.

And it is not just shooters. When I was young and saw StarWars I wanted to be Han Solo or Luke Skywalker. Why do so many people want to play an evil character in Star Wars games then? Last time I checked roleplaying is about acting out fantasies that are impossible in real life. Is it me or do I distrust someone whose fantasie is killing everything in sight let alone selling a young girl into slavery or setting her best friend to kill her?

Perhaps I am just an old softie but if you play an RPG like Knights of the old republic and can make the evil choices and have fun then you are sick.

So do I think violent games make normal people violent? No. I do not have desire to go killing people for money or fun in real life but then I do not have that desire in games either. I do not kill someone in an rpg just to get some extra credits or deny someone in need credits even if it doesn't give experience points. I hate the goodness rating as it is more accuratly not being a complete asshole rating. Unarmed girl begs for her life and you kill her for 300 credits wich in game is about 1 clip of ammo? Game should not give you points for not killing her, instead the door should burst open the moment you raise your gun and you are shotdown in a hail of fire by the real hero of the game. Then it should lock the controls and you can watch the real hero complete the quest.

So if you play GTA and kill a minimum of people and do professianal job then perhaps you are unaffected by the game play. If you go putting holes in their body parts to make them die slowly or gain extra gore well then excuse me while I call the padded wagon to take you away.

Oh and the good players in rpg if you think the evil is about choice? Then think about this there are more roles to play then good or evil. Why can't I let the young girl keep her money and instead ask for a kiss as a reward eh? I wanna play a dirty old knight in slightly rusty armor!

Oh yes it does... (1, Interesting)

John Seminal (698722) | more than 10 years ago | (#8212000)

Our actions are based on two things. Genetics and experiance. So to those who say that violent games do not cause violence, then what does? Was that person born evil? I think the relationship between violent games and violence is like the relationship between carcinogens and cancer. Think of it another way.

violence in games (2, Interesting)

Sire Enaique (637079) | more than 10 years ago | (#8212007)

There's a powerful argument at the end of Grossman's On Killing that it's not the violence itself that's a problem, but how it is presented.

The games that are actually dangerous are those in which are realistic enough that there is no doubt that it's human beings that you maim or kill, but at the same time depict those human beings as not really human, thereby introducing a conditionned psychological distance between the player and potential victims.

95% of people have an ingrained resistance to killing other people. You have to artificially condition them to get them to shoot at people. Until this was acknowledged after WWII, only about 10% of soldiers actually shot their guns at the ennemy. Modern military (infantry) training is intended to counter that ingrained resistance, and is pretty successful at it - in VietNam, the "shooting rate" was over 90%.

That's why Western-trained troops regularly trash opponents with similar equipment but different training: a Western-trained 30-man platoon will typically have 27 shooters, while its opponent will most likely have only 3 or 4, giving the Westerners an actual 9:1 fire superiority every other thing being equal.

Some games (eg, Doom and its offsprings) operate in a similar fashion to military training/indoctrination, but without the control features inherent to military training, and are thereby dangerous.

See www.killology.com

It's no surprise, Europeans have had violence (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8212011)

selectively bred out of them for centuries, through emigration, genocide and mass starvation. Violence, self defense and gun ownership are all negative traits according to the Hague based New World Order, and Europe is the beta test in reducing humans to sheeple.

The initial secular humanist cabal was satisfied using the colonies as a safety valve to eliminate violence prone individuals, figuring that the natives in the colonies (Zulus, Iroquios, Bantu, Thugges, Pollywogs and Slantees) would kill most of them, and leave the more harmless ones in Europe. Not believing in God, they didn't take God into account, who so generously provided a fecund new Jerusalem in America, where right thinking God Fearing men could subdue and populate a whole continent, Kentucky long rifle in one hand, Bible in the other.

Once the colonies were full or free, the ruling cabal had to find another way to get rid of the free thinking men who worshipped God and not man. It's not a coincidence that the most fervent Christians in the British Empire suffered a British genrerated Potato Famine in the 1870's.

Finally, the humanists attempted genocide to purge Europe of men who would defend their rights with their lives. The Jews were the first to be targetted, one only needs a cursory glance at the history of Isreal to realize what a fierce opponent to soul degrading secular humanism the Jewish race would be.

Which pretty much brings us to today. The New World Order, based in the Hague, is slowly grinding down Europeans into sub-humans, preventing them from fully achieving their full human potential, including the ability to fight for what you believe in. Teletubbies and happy, passive, non-violent video games are part of the insidious conspiracy. Fortunately, there are enough God Fearing, right thinking men who will fight for the right for men to worship God instead of nebulous concepts like Gaia, ecology, feminism, astronomy and humanism in America and Isreal. For those of us blessed enough to live in one of God's chosen places, all we can do is pray for the poor souls being tortured in the soul crashing socialist hellhole that is Europe, and perhaps ship them a few handguns enclosed in the cases of Budweiser that we ship overseas to sate the European hunger for fine, beechwood aged corn beer.

thank you, finally (4, Insightful)

dindi (78034) | more than 10 years ago | (#8212015)

I just have to say, that I agree...

Ratings on games are important imho, yes a 5 year old might think that grabbing someone out of a car and beating the person with a baseball bat is cool after playing GTA, but I do not think that a grown up is really inspired that way by violent games...

I am a fan of Silent HILL, Fatal frame, and many Rainbowsix3, GTA, and many FPS shooters and fighting games, and I feel the gaming violence entertaining.... however I think it settles down my agression/violence, not improves it ...

Yes after playing offroad fury, I ride my ATV/Bike aggressive in the woods ....
Yes after playing Silent Hill 3 for 4 hours in the dark I have the tendency to scare my wife just for a laugh ..

NO after playing Rainbowsix-3 I won't get a sniper rifle and start playing jungle fight in my neighborhood ... and after playing GTA I won't beat up grandpa for his pickup or beat up hookers for their money ...

If someone is dangerous, they will get more violence influence from any Hollywood movie, from any local horror-video-rental place.

gamers are not.... (2, Insightful)

Cheeze (12756) | more than 10 years ago | (#8212017)

...all killing machines lying in wait

but some are, so those pesky reporters better keep their mouthes shut.

no really, people that think movies and video games spark violence act like there were no violence before tv and games. This isn't star trek. All animals have some sort of violence built in for survival. If anything, the violence from just watching the local or national news is the one doing the corrupting.

The most dangerous convention (3, Insightful)

hoggoth (414195) | more than 10 years ago | (#8212041)

> E3 is not the most potentially dangerous convention ever.

No, perhaps THIS [nraam.org] is the most dangerous convention ever.

Or, depending on your point of view one [democrats.org] of these [rnc.org] may be the most dangerous convention ever.

Bowling (3, Interesting)

Flyboy Connor (741764) | more than 10 years ago | (#8212042)

Michael Moore, of course, covered this in Bowling for Columbine. Since the teenagers that killed their classmates went bowling before going on a killing spree, obviously bowling must be the cause of their actions...

Statistics actually show that people who play violent games are most unlikely to commit violent crimes. Take the two premises: (1) someone who plays violent games will commit violent crimes; and (2) someone who plays violent games will NOT commit violent crimes. I now pull a statistic out of my hat, which will probably be more or less correct, that out of 10,000 people who play violent games only 1 commits a violent crime. That means there is 99.99% confirmation for premise (2), and only 0.01% confirmation for premise (1). So the odds are that premise (2) is correct and premise (1) isn't. Conclusion: someone who plays violent games will very likely not commit violent crimes. Therefore, to avoid violent crimes more people should play violent games.

Yes, I know, this is no way to do statistics. But it actually is the way statistics are often applied in the media to "prove" very simplistic stands.

First Post (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8212043)

This is the first post. There are no others posts like it. The first post is for fighting, the second post is for fun.

Games Don't Cause Violence. (3, Funny)

Jameth (664111) | more than 10 years ago | (#8212068)

I Do.

don't blame games, blame our violent country (5, Insightful)

kaan (88626) | more than 10 years ago | (#8212089)

I admit I did not rtfa, but I already believe games are not to blame for violence in this country. Why? Well we hear it all the time in the mainstream news -heavy metal music is making kids kill each other, Grand Theft Auto is making kids kill each other, freely available handguns and high-power firearms is why kids kill each other, violence on TV and in movies is what makes kids kill each other, the broken marriages, high divorce rates and single-family homes are robbing kids of the stability at home and thus they grow up insecure and want to kill each other, ......

The interesting thing is this:

- the United States is not the only country with alienated youth, check out Japanese kids (in Japan) or countires throughout Europe. In fact, isn't it part of growing up to be alienated and not fit in? Most of us didn't fit in when we were growing up, but who cares?

- the divorce rate in the U.S. is not the highest in the world, Brittain is higher. But we don't see the Brits killing each other left and right, or blaming everyone and their dog for why the other is so violent.

- mainstream music and movies can't be blamed, because they are ALL available in other countries, and in some cases might even be "taken more seriously" by foreigners who idolize the American way of life, so how can we blame movies, TV and music?

- the availability of guns in this country isn't totally to blame either - look at Canadians, they've got millions of guns throughout the country, but we don't see the Kanucks blowing each other's heads off.

I never really had a cohesive perspective on this stuff until I watched Bowling for Columbine [imdb.com] . This is exactly what the movie is about - investigating why this country is so obsessed with violence. The answer, according to Michael Moore (and I totally agree with him), is that we live in a society that thrives on fear.

We're afraid of being robbed, insulted, embarassed... We're afraid we'll get too fat, or get too thin, or be unhealthy about our diet.... We're afraid we won't fit in, or won't get laid this weekend, or can't get a promotion at work, or might get fired, and what the hell am I gonna do when I retire? and how are my kids going to possibly afford college on their own?! and jesus what is up with social security?....

It just goes on and on, and we finally get to fear over our kids, and that's where all the blame lands on TV, movies, music, and video games. If the average parent would spend real quality time with their kids instead of plopping them in front of the fucking television night after night, things in this country might start turning for the better.

I wrote about this on my blog [erdener.org] when I saw the movie a few months ago. For any interested parties, here's a link to The Charlie Rose Show [bloomberg.com] where Michael Moore was interviewed.

I think James covered it... (1)

gillbates (106458) | more than 10 years ago | (#8212103)

Where do the wars and where do the conflicts among you come from? Is it not from your passions that make war within your members? You covet, but do not possess. You kill and envy, but cannot obtain; you fight and wage war. You do not possess because you do not ask. You ask but do not receive, because you asked wrongly, to spend on your passions.
James 4,1:3

Violence has been around since Biblical times, and I don't think video games have, nor will they ever have, anything to do with it.

Violence springs not from playing, but from unfulfilled desires or irrational fears. If anything, video games provide a healthy outlet for working out aggression in a non-destructive manner. Only someone already mentally ill would fail to see the difference between killing a mass of pixels in a video game and killing in real life.

Video games, OTOH, provide a much needed escape from reality. Much like drugs and alcohol, except that they are not addicting (or only trivially so, compared to drugs such as heroin and alcohol). Furthermore, they don't have the negative effect on health that illegal drugs do. What I find interesting is that no one is mentioning the vast number of kids who chose video games over alcohol and drugs. Doesn't anyone else see video games as a tool in the "War On Drugs"? While it is easy to show a correlation between drug use and violence, no such correlation has been shown for video games.

My suspicion is that the video-games-cause-violence theories come from selfish parents who would rather blame a video game than take responsibility for their children's development.

In other news (4, Funny)

tommck (69750) | more than 10 years ago | (#8212112)

"Masturbation does NOT, in fact, cause blindness!"

Story at 11!

Hope no one covered this yet (1)

DrLZRDMN (728996) | more than 10 years ago | (#8212115)

It does I too have been influenced negatively by the sensless violence rewards for stealing and objectifying women in video games. Just yesterday I stole 100 gold coins stomped on 30+ turtles and ran off with this princess chick...

The Modern BBC News Article (1)

Ciderx (524837) | more than 10 years ago | (#8212116)

'it is trite and irresponsible of ill-informed commentators to claim that games like Grand Theft Auto are central to terrible crime...but having said that, BBC reporter Andrew Gilligan has learnt that Tony Blair and George Bush are r0x0rs at Battlefield 1942, so the jury's still out'

BBC not reliable (0, Flamebait)

Mozai (3547) | more than 10 years ago | (#8212118)

Considering the BBC's track [slashdot.org] record [slashdot.org] , I don't think the BBC's support of this opinion is very helpful.

I think most of us can see the general public views violent video images and violent actions as being linked. One way to sell papers is to wave around a controvertial opinion, like disagreeing with "known facts."
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