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190 comments

George W. Bush touched my junk conservatively (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8258360)

George W. Bush touched my junk compassionately. He strapped me in to his F-102 fighter jet and he couldnt keep his offensive hands off of me. He was performing many red flag touches. I couldn't believe what the fuck was going on. I told the President the country would not approve of a millionaire touching an underage kid for free.

Can you believe it? George W. Bush did all this. He picked me up off the street, strapped my arms and legs down in the F-102's seat, and just wouldn't stop fondling my cock'n'balls.

They definately were red flag touches. The goddamn referee he had standing on the nose kept on raising up this red flag every time he touched my junk but did the President care? NO WAY! He just kept on doing it. I couldn't believe what the fuck was going on, indeed. I pleaded with Mr. Bush, but to no avail. I told him the country would not approve of such a wealthy man touching an underage kid like me (at the time I was 13) without at least compensating me for the trauma and the use of my body as his own personal plaything.

This got to him, worrying about his image. He continued to fondle me, all the while ignoring the referee's red flags. Then he flew the F-102 to my house and *ejected the seat I was in*! It was amazing. But surprisingly, after I woke up the next morning, my bank account had $150k in it! Can you believe it?

Re:George W. Bush touched my junk conservatively (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8258476)

Variations of the junk touching troll. What is it all about... is it good, or is it whack?

OMG WTF LOL (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8258559)

Variations of the junk touching troll. What is it all about... is it good, or is it whack?

It's good. And "on teh spoke", whatever that means.

Re:George W. Bush touched my junk conservatively (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8258567)

In Soviet Russia, Batman's junk touches YOU!

Re:George W. Bush touched my junk conservatively (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8258586)

In the US, the mossy junk in my fridge tries to touch me every time I open it.

Help end the heartbreak of psoriasis! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8258631)

It's not funny to make jokes about reptoid rape!!! [davidicke.com]

I got confused... (1, Funny)

bc90021 (43730) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258374)

...and I thought they were talking about the drink! I was thinking "wine hackers"? Shouldn't that be "sommeliers [mastersommeliers.org]"? Man, it's still way too early in the day...

Re:I got confused... (3, Insightful)

MarvinMouse (323641) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258486)

...and I thought they were talking about the drink! I was thinking "wine hackers"? Shouldn't that be "sommeliers"? Man, it's still way too early in the day...

Nah, Sommeliers are closer to quality assurance workers, than wine hackers. Wine hackers would be more like people who make their own wine at home, and try to get the alcohol content as high as possible.

Re:I got confused... (3, Informative)

Nadir (805) | more than 10 years ago | (#8259198)

Alcohol volume in wine cannot go above 16.8% because the yeasts that attack the sugars will stop doing their thing at such concentration of alcohol.

Re:I got confused... (1)

Cardinal Biggles (6685) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258568)

by bc90021 (43730) on Thursday February 12, @04:49PM

[...]

Man, it's still way too early in the day...

Wow... 4:49pm is early...? You sure sleep late. :-)

Re:I got confused... (1)

NickFitz (5849) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258695)

Unless he's in California, in which case it's definitely too early at 8:49am :-)

Re:I got confused... (-1, Offtopic)

tommck (69750) | more than 10 years ago | (#8259060)

I had the EXACT same reaction! Could be all the wine I drank last night! Weird... I was thinking that Wine Hackers were people that were trying to streamline the fermentation process or something!

Hehe... great palates think alike!

Perhaps this is an improvement? (5, Funny)

samuel4242 (630369) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258378)

He pointed out that Microsoft Office now "just works. You can use it all day long and you won't see the difference." Then he added that wasn't 100% true because, "The Paperclip still doesn't work." Seems like Wine runs Office better than Windows.

Re:Perhaps this is an improvement? (1)

UnknowingFool (672806) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258809)

Paperclip = worst feature ever. And it doesn't help that you can never uninstall the paperclip without unistalling Office. When you "remove it", it just hides it, but if you click on the wrong menu command, it still comes up.

Re:Perhaps this is an improvement? (1)

Shaklee39 (694496) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258927)

It has nothing to do with the paperclip but I have found that having a search box immediately there to type in a help question is handy sometimes. The other day I was trying to add a caption to a figure but it was not putting them in the same table as my other labels so I asked clippy. Sure enough it said that images had to be inline for the labels to be able to group together.

Re:Perhaps this is an improvement? (1)

Frymaster (171343) | more than 10 years ago | (#8259116)

I have found that having a search box immediately there to type in a help question is handy sometimes

me too. it's called man.

Re:Perhaps this is an improvement? (3, Funny)

StarWreck (695075) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258882)

... I always assumed the Paperclip was a trojan horse on diet pills.

Re:Perhaps this is an improvement? (2, Funny)

bluGill (862) | more than 10 years ago | (#8259030)

Codeweavers was joking that the next version of crossover would come in two version, standard for $70, and everything but Clippy for $100. Of course this assumes they manage to get all the code that Clippy uses working.

I was at the WineConf2004, very interesting.

FUCKIN TROLLS!!!! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8258381)

Here's your justification, you lousy piece of troll shit. My DSL connection at home sucks, and that's where the beta server is running. I gave out the site to 125 people who emailed me asked me for the site, so that it didn't die.
Now you've decided to be a fucking flaming asshole and post the site everywhere, causing signifacnt problems with my DSL at home because you're a piece of shit with nothing better to do.

I've wasted 5 hours this morning deleting your trolls and in the meantime have gotten NO other work done because of you. I'm trying to do something nice for MacSlash community and upgrade our server so it's better. You insist on wasting my time with this shit, and keeping me from being able to work on the new server.

I've worked on this site for over 3 years without every making a penny off of it because I like the interaction with other Mac users. You've just spoiled that. I now dread loading the site every morning because of trolls like you. I spend most of my time now dealing with your petty bullshit instead making this a better place. And I'm about ready to just shut the whole damn thing down instead of dealing with you anymore.

So there's you're fucking justification. Now stop posting the address of the new site.
-- Ben Stanfield
Executive Editor @ MacSlash

Re:FUCKIN TROLLS!!!! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8258531)

Isn't "I like the interaction with other Mac users" just a fancy way of saying "I like being fucked in the ass by gay men"?

Binary Text Riddle - Can you decode it? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8258412)

00001101 00001010 01010011 01101100 01100001 01110011 01101000 01100100 01101111 01110100 00100000 01101001 01110011 00100000 01110000 01100001 01110100 01101000 01100101 01110100 01101001 01100011 00101100 00100000 01100001 01101110 01100100 00100000 01110011 01101111 00100000 01100001 01110010 01100101 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00101110 00001101 00001010 00001101 00001010 01000111 01100101 01110100 00100000 01100001 00100000 01110010 01100101 01100001 01101100 00100000 01101010 01101111 01100010 00101100 00100000 01110011 01110100 01101111 01110000 00100000 01101101 01100001 01110011 01110100 01110101 01110010 01100010 01100001 01110100 01101001 01101110 01100111 00101100 00100000 01101100 01101001 01100110 01110100 00100000 01110011 01101111 01101101 01100101 00100000 01110111 01100101 01101001 01100111 01101000 01110100 01110011 00101100 00100000 01100001 01101110 01100100 00100000 01101101 01101111 01110110 01100101 00100000 01101111 01110101 01110100 00100000 01101111 01100110 00100000 01101101 01101111 01101101 01101101 01100001 00100111 01110011 00100000 01100010 01100001 01110011 01100101 01101101 01100101 01101110 01110100 00101110 00001101 00001010 00001101 00001010 01010011 01110100 01101111 01110000 00100000 01110100 01110010 01111001 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01110100 01101111 00100000 01100011 01101111 01101110 01110110 01100101 01110010 01110100 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01110111 01101111 01110010 01101100 01100100 00100000 01100100 01101111 01100111 00100000 01110100 01101111 00100000 01001100 01101001 01101110 01110101 01111000 00101100 00100000 01100010 01100101 01100011 01100001 01110101 01110011 01100101 00100000 01101001 01110100 00100111 01110011 00100000 01101110 01101111 01110100 00100000 01100111 01101111 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01110100 01101111 00100000 01101000 01100001 01110000 01110000 01100101 01101110 00101110 00100000 01001100 01101001 01101110 01110101 01111000 00100000 01110011 01110101 01100011 01101011 01110011 00101110 00001101 00001010 00001101 00001010 01001001 01100110 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01101101 01100001 01101110 01100001 01100111 01100101 00100000 01110100 01101111 00100000 01100100 01101111 00100000 01110100 01101000 01101001 01110011 00101100 00100000 01100101 01110110 01100101 01101110 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100001 01100011 01101110 01100101 00100000 01110111 01101001 01101100 01101100 00100000 01100011 01101100 01100101 01100001 01110010 00100000 01110101 01110000 00101110 00100000 01001000 01100101 01101100 01101100 00101100 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01101101 01101001 01100111 01101000 01110100 00100000 01101101 01100001 01101110 01100001 01100111 01100101 00100000 01110100 01101111 00100000 01100111 01100101 01110100 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100111 01101001 01110010 01101100 01100110 01110010 01101001 01100101 01101110 01100100 00100001

Re:Binary Text Riddle - Can you decode it? (-1, Offtopic)

SparafucileMan (544171) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258425)

OMG! This is the map to the hidden WMD in Iraq!! Someone, call a Republican!

Re:Binary Text Riddle - Can you decode it? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8258915)

Saddam was only slaugherting arabs not white people, so democrats didn't care.

Hex answer (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8258455)

6675636B206F666620616E642064696500

Re:Binary Text Riddle - Can you decode it? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8258475)

That shit converts to:

Slashdot is pathetic, and so are you. Get a real job, stop masturbating, lift some weights, and move out of momma's basement. Stop trying to convert the world dog to Linux, because it's not going to happen. Linux sucks. If you manage to do this, even your acne will clear up. Hell, you might manage to get a girlfriend!

That was kinda hard. Wheeewwww.

Re:Binary Text Riddle - Can you decode it? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8258499)

You fail it because you actually took the time to decode it. Idiot.

Re:Binary Text Riddle - Can you decode it? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8258544)

...and you took time to take a troll, write it in binary, and post it on slashdot. how is this better?

Re:Binary Text Riddle - Can you decode it? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8258560)

No, that wasn't me. I just scrolled by and saw that you failed it.

Re:Binary Text Riddle - Can you decode it? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8259094)

well, that wasn't me either. different anonymous coward. I guess we can stop arguing then.

Pi in binary (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8259141)

That is my guess....

No Future (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8258436)

Running windows apps natively will always be better than WINE. Give it up losers and do something useful instead.

Believe me, I love it as much as anybody, but. . . (-1, Insightful)

Speeshus Ness (751742) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258437)

We get yet another conference in without dealing with some of the fundamental flaws in the Wine implementation, that if they continue to go unaddressed will get locked into core code and we'll end up with as much of a dog as the system it's trying to replace. I'm speaking of (at least - this is the short list)

-- Thread resolution and collection.
-- Incredibly sloppy video management and screen management code.
-- Conflicts with the kernel in the management of I/O and wait states for unsupported hardware.
-- TCP/IP stack is circa 1993, even Microsquid could do a better job.

I applaud this ra-ra attitude, but unless we're willing to take an *unflinching* look at where we are, Wine is really going to stay as a novelty.

Re:Believe me, I love it as much as anybody, but. (5, Informative)

IamTheRealMike (537420) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258510)

Mods, please ignore this post, it's just a troll. Wine doesn't even have a TCP/IP stack, it (of course) uses the underlying hosts stack, ie the Linux/FreeBSD/Whatever stack. "Wait states for unsupported hardware" is entirely meaningless, Wine does not have hardware support, again that's delegated to the underyling operating system.

Of course, if the poster can show specific sections of code he feels have "fundamental flaws" and describe them satisfactorily then I'll take my words back.

Re:Believe me, I love it as much as anybody, but. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8258759)

yah, like his sig states, you should read his journal before bestowing mod points.

Overly critical (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8258535)

If you don't like parts of it, you're free to
help reimplement it. Wine has made good progress,
and it will continue to do so, with or without
your sniping.

By the way, as far as I know, Wine simply uses
Linux's TCP/IP stack. Thus your comments are not
only unhelpful and offensive, they don't appear
to even be accurate.

Re:Believe me, I love it as much as anybody, but. (5, Informative)

jhunsake (81920) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258536)

From his journal....

The Specious Project
09:45 AM February 12th, 2004 [ Add Friend | #61699 ]
Hi, thanks for reading the journal.

Any posts from this account are part of the Specious Project, which challenges the quality of the Slashdot moderation system by posting plausible-sounding, yet factually inaccurate comments to Slashdot stories.

Usually a simple Google search will reveal any errors, and anyone moderating Specious Project posts up are reacting only to the sound and tone of authority, rather that the actual content. We try not to talk to those people at parties.

Looks like he "proved" what he wanted to. (1)

khasim (1285) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258575)

When I saw his post, it was +5 Insightful.

We'll see what happens to it over time.

Re:Looks like he "proved" what he wanted to. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8258616)

It had just hit -1 as of this posting. Looks like some mods actually have a brain and some sense.

Re:Looks like he "proved" what he wanted to. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8258749)

umm, you mean they see the informative replies and realize the mistake that was made :P

Re:Believe me, I love it as much as anybody, but. (3, Funny)

zulux (112259) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258722)



We'll we all know that the Specious Project started on Dave Cutler's work with PDP-11's during WWII. By inventing new opcodes, like, BSH and WRG, Dave and Allan Turing were able to break the Enigam codes that the American and Germans were using at the time. That's how we got the plans for the AtomicBomb from the Germans.

The Specious Project was also the first atempt to pring Opject-Oriented code to simple Babage style difference engines like the PDP-11.

(How did I do... am I part of the Specious Project now???)

CrossOver (5, Insightful)

cozziewozzie (344246) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258444)

I wonder how many of the improvements can be attributed to the Crossover code. IIRC, the Crossover people release all their changes back to the WINE tree after a time. IMHO, this is a good example of a company staying alive while helping out the community.

Anyway, running Office smoothly is a great thing. This and Photoshop are two very important steps to getting Linux on more desktops (last time I tried Photoshop, it crashed after a while and Office complained about some access violation).

Re:CrossOver ? with MS Blessings...? (3, Insightful)

da5idnetlimit.com (410908) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258795)

Well, the point had always been that the Office division of MS is a milk cow, System brings quite some money in but is attacked by Linux and XBOX Division (as well as the media division) is loosing money like hell...

Wine continuation just means that when (rofl) Linux has dethroned Windows on the desktop(/rofl) Microsoft can with no problem continue pushing it's Office suite everywhere...

Maybe putting all this devellopment time and brains on OpenOffice / MSOffice compatibility and TheGimp Tools/Dev/Filters would allow us what we really need..a really free, top to bottom OS...with all the goodies softs available for free...

"This and Photoshop are two very important steps to getting Linux on more desktops"

I might be wrong, but I think I'm closer to the mark than you are...

Get Oppenoffice working for cheap AND MS doc compatible (almost totally done), push for the SMEs and Big Companies to get cheaper hardware by getting them Microsoft free and then you will see that Photoshop is announcing a native Linux version by it's nice, userfriendly editor...

When you are at that point, most editors will come and shell out Linux versions... Binaries only, maybe, but Linux versions anyhow...

Wine was all right and fine an idea 2-3 years ago, when Linux didn't fully have the basic apps.

Now that we have them...

There is only two position in IT Market, the best or the cheapest... If we get all for free, editors will try and provide the best for a fee... Or so it was to work ...

I'd like to know that too (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8258816)

I bought crossover partly because I wanted to support Wine, and I have know idea if I'm actually acheiving that or not. Anyone got any info?

btw I've used Photoshop under the latest crossover and it ran fine, although ImageReady was pretty buggy.

Re:I'd like to know that too (5, Interesting)

jeremy_white (598942) | more than 10 years ago | (#8259025)

We are only able to do the work that we do because of the money we receive from our customers, most of whom are single end users.

All of our work on Wine goes back to the public Wine tree. I think its fair to say that Wine runs MS Office 2000, XP, Photoshop, and a wide range of applications only because of the money our customers have sent us. So, yes, I think it makes a huge difference, and we greatly appreciate it.

Further, there is one misconception I wish to correct. We've actually changed our development process recently so that all of our Wine work goes to the public Wine tree as soon as our developer makes the change, without regard to CrossOver releases.

Cheers,

Jeremy White
CEO, CodeWeavers

Re:CrossOver (2, Interesting)

timeOday (582209) | more than 10 years ago | (#8259031)

Thank you Crossover. Of course, without free code from the community Crossover would never have gotten over the hump.

This makes WINE an interesting case study in the difference between the GPL and BSD licenses. (Wine is "lesser GPL" which allows linking to non-free software (eg MS Office) but requires source code distribution for the library (eg Wine)).

I hate to whine (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8258445)

but wine still seems like one of those apps that need geek'ness to get things working. For whom are they aiming the product for these days, joe average?

I appreciate what they are doing, but at the moment would it not be better to go 100% unix or 100% windows.

Have a nice cup of flaming hot death! (-1, Troll)

Thud457 (234763) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258672)

You notice there aren't any projects to run Mac OS apps under Linux.

Re:Have a nice cup of flaming hot death! (4, Informative)

kalidasa (577403) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258708)

You notice there aren't any projects to run Mac OS apps under Linux.


Au contraire [maconlinux.org].

Re:Have a nice cup of flaming hot death! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8258741)

Too bad it doesn't run on i386 hardware.

Re:Have a nice cup of flaming hot death! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8258828)

WTF is that sheeit?!!! An Open Source project that isn't properly platform-agnostic? Crap, I thought only Wintel developers were that stupid!!! That's as benighted as making a nice adaptable low power chip and then selling it as x86 comptatible!! Goddamned heathens!

Re:Have a nice cup of flaming hot death! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8259072)

I never quite understood that project, since it requires PPC hardware. If I'm going to spent the money on PPC hardware, why not just run Mac OS?

duh.. (-1)

SalsaDoom (14830) | more than 10 years ago | (#8259119)

I don't know why this isn't obvious, but perhaps the person in question might like to run a 100% truly free OS on his computer? Perhaps they just like linux/bsd better?

Geez...

--SD

Re:I hate to whine (2, Insightful)

caino59 (313096) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258681)

i'll bite...

this just isn't for joe consumer, but for converting business over to a linux desktop.

most system admins that would love to have linux on their place of employment's desktop will have no trouble setting up wine. all the users have to do is use it, not set it up...

Re:I hate to whine (1)

Lord_Frederick (642312) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258782)

I'm not so sure "most" system admins would love to have linux on the desktop. Your helpdesk and desktop support people are the ones who handle the quick little configuration problems and other quirks that happen day-to-day in the workplace.

I don't know about where you work, but where I am, sometimes I wonder about how much our 1st level support knows about WINDOWS, much less linux!

Re:I hate to whine (1)

caino59 (313096) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258956)

you misinterpreted.

i said "most system admins that would love to have linux..."

not "most admins want linux..."

big difference.

i was basically saying that people that prefer linux will most often have a workable knowledge of the operating system and various tools and utilities that run on linux.

That's why it's 0.9 (5, Insightful)

Weaselmancer (533834) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258885)

Plus, Wine is not a product, it's a project. Codeweavers makes a product based on Wine, and so does Transgaming.

Codeweavers product is aimed at people who want to use Linux, but communicate 100% with MS Office people. And use MS plugins in their Linux browsers.

Transgamings product is aimed at the hacker/enthusiast who wants to be on the cutting edge running DirectX games on their Linux install.

Eventually, Wine will be a near 100% replacement for the MS API. Buy a MS piece of software at CompUSA, drop it in your Linux distro, and it works perfectly.

And once that happens, you will see Linux begin to take over the desktop. And that's why Wine developers are heroes. Keep up the good work!

Weaselmancer

PS: The submitter is hoping for the "magic bullet" that'll speed up wine, but may have missed just such a magic bullet in the article he posted. It's a shared memory wineserver, currently experimental. I'll quote from the WineHQ page:

Gav showed a dramatic demo of American McGee's Alice running under both WineX and WineX with shared memory. In that particular game the sound and graphics threads needed to sync with each other at an astounding rate. Typical WineX performance produced about 50 frames per second. By moving to shared memory the framerate nearly doubled to about 95 a second.

Have you tried the commercial versions? (1)

Per Abrahamsen (1397) | more than 10 years ago | (#8259020)

I haven't but I'd expect the crossover and transgaming versions to feel less geeky.

try and locate the magic bullet.. (2, Informative)

osullish (586626) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258460)

to make Wine better and faser?? I Run word 97 on my linux box and its 100 times better and faster! I think they're not looking for a bullet but a WMD :-)

Seriously though, Wine is one of the most impressive feats of software engineering I've seen, the ability to emulate a closed source platform is a real achievement.

Re:try and locate the magic bullet.. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8258626)

If a windows program ran better in Wine than it did in windows, then you are one of the worst windows administrators in the world.

No wonder you're stuck using an operating system written by out of work hacks.

Hi Bill!! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8258658)

Get back to learning how to use the Internet, you old fart.

Re:try and locate the magic bullet.. (1)

IamTheRealMike (537420) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258700)

Actually I meant development processes - Wine the project as opposed to Wine the software (which you are right, runs acceptably well most of the time). Wine is moving faster than ever before and is one of the most active open source projects around, but more people are always needed. If there is a magic bullet we can use to increase participation, and increase the efficiency of those already taking part, that'd be a valuable thing indeed.

Unfortunately, nobody has yet come up with one.

It'd be really great to know what would encourage people to work on Wine, so we can help them. WineHQ is one of the friendliest communities that I've encountered, so I feel it has to be our processes or technologies (or maybe just the nature of the beast) that scare people off.

Re:try and locate the magic bullet.. (0, Flamebait)

rokzy (687636) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258883)

the version of wine I have (quite new) requires that I have a windows partition with everything installed there.

and then it says it might ruin it, so recommends copying the whole thing.

I'm not trying to flame/troll, but this doesn't seem like "emulation" to me... "MS Windows Emulator*!!!!"

*MS Windows required.

I guess the problem is MS copyrights meaning they can't just distribute the required files? or even attempt to reverse engineer?

Wine and DirectX (4, Interesting)

SydShamino (547793) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258470)

Next up, Tom Wickline put together a presentation about getting applications to run. Tom has worked quite a bit with Wine and CrossOver Office and had some tricks for getting things to work. The key to just getting something to run seems to be using native Windows DLL's. He has a copy of Windows 98 to copy things to and from. Generally he starts with CrossOver Office and adds the following things in this order:

* Internet Explorer
* DCOM98 (as opposed to DCOM95)
* MDAC.Type
* MS Scripting update (SCR56.exe)

Lately he's even added native DirectX 8.1 to the mix. Some form of this combination will get Wine to run about 85% of the applications and games he's tested.


That's cool and all, but DirectX 8.1 is outdated. EverQuest, for example, upgraded to DirectX 9 this week, breaking support for anyone who ran it in Linux.

I was about to move completely to Xandros 2.0 on a home machine, knowing that, if the included CrossOver Office wouldn't run EQ, WineX would. Now I'm comtemplating a dual-boot machine. But that doesn't work as well since our home file/print server is being booted into a new OS.

Unfortunately, most people only play the latest and greatest when it comes to games.* And to keep people centered on Linux when it comes to gaming, latest DirectX support needs to be a top priority.

* (Me, still playing EQ five years after its release, being an obvious exception.)

Re:Wine and DirectX (5, Insightful)

SydShamino (547793) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258519)

And to keep people centered on Linux when it comes to gaming, latest DirectX support needs to be a top priority.

Of course, I mean for the Wine folks. For the rest of the Linux community, getting developers to release native Linux games is more important.

Re:Wine and DirectX (3, Insightful)

kfg (145172) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258637)

And me still playing Grand Prix Legends and Red Baron 3D would be another exception. There may be more of us out that than you realize.

And while implimenting the latest DirectX might well be of some high priority it is inherently impossible to achieve in a timely manner, with regards to people who will only run the latest and "greatest" games. Wine will always be at least a generation behind.

So why not start from the beginning and work up, getting games people already have to run?

My Windows partition exists solely for these games. If DX8 were fully supported I could ditch the thing.

KFG

Re:Wine and DirectX (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8258651)

"Centered on linux" amounts to hacking the kernel, or doing cool open source work, or just getting _NOVEL_ shit done using an alternative OS (I would like to say "free software" instead here, but that's not necessarily the case, for better or worse). Honestly, what's the point of keeping people centered on linux by emulating Window$?

I haven't kept up with WinE for a long time, but I do recall it used to be necessary to have a few proprietary binaries for it to work, i.e., it's not even free-as-in-beer-window$-emulation. (This may have since changed, which would be cool; in which case, disregard this)

Now, notice that I'm not attacking the WinE project - it's a great technical exercise and it may be useful (though I really doubt that the manhours saved from applying WinE in productive situations will ever amount to those put into WinE's development, that's cool). It's a natural thing to develop as much cross-platform support as possible; it's one of those geek imperatives.

However, I'm attacking this "we need to emulate windows for the good of linux" mentality. It's worse than the various Gnome/KDE suite apps which apparently try to clone Win-apps down to the annoying "features" (Right now, I'm thinking about gnumeric's limitation to 256x65536 sheets... I don't know why anyone would want something to behave EXACTLY like Excel.) It illustrates an appalling herd-mentality: "We have an alternative OS, but man, it's just not going to be good enough for the world until it copies what everyone's familiar with."

God, francois! (1, Funny)

dasmegabyte (267018) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258488)

If you hackers watched the Simpsons properly, you'd know that the secret to making Wine faster is to put anti-freezein it.

Re:God, francois! (1)

idfrsr (560314) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258967)

the secret to making Wine faster is to put anti-freezein it.

Ah... but it would hardly be a proper Win32 emulator if there some anti-freeze in it... might as well get rid of the blue screen while you are at it!

A novel idea. (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8258491)

Just curious. Did anyone at the conference figure out a way to make Wine actually work?

Wine I dont knowws whats hatsssssss beeeeeen (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8258493)

Wine is ex.. eggs..egggggggggggz. eeeeeeeggggggssssseeeeellent emulat. api thtinkgamapbob thaaat runnnnnnnssss a f...feeeeeeeeeeewwww thnunks pprre tty wel onn the leeenux.

wine isss allllso a veeerry, veeery, veeeery, verrey, gooooood drun..driiink.
eyeee...I....thhinks imm gooona go hav sum...... sum moore.

Did the attendees make it back home too? (2, Funny)

cruff (171569) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258504)

I read that the attendants are back home. Are the meeting attendees geriatric geezers that needed help at the meeting? :-)

Win32 port anyone? (5, Funny)

Dreadlord (671979) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258582)

*sigh* still no signs of a Win32 port...

Re:Win32 port anyone? (2, Informative)

Chris_Jefferson (581445) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258750)

Actually there has been some work (its only on mailing lists, not public yet) of getting wine to run under cygwin, which is almost a win32 port.

Of course wine should also run cygwin (as it's a windows program), so eventually you will be able to run wine under itself :)

yes there is (1)

bluGill (862) | more than 10 years ago | (#8259080)

There are several signs of win32 ports.

Some people are replacing Windows DLLs with Wine DLLs. (mostly for testing).

Some people are trying to get Wine running under Windows.

the ReactOS people are doing really cool things trying to make a windows clone that uses Wine.

Depending on your definition of running, all or some of the above might be of interest to you.

GOING JOB HUNTING THIS MORNING (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8258591)

That's right cocksmokers. My old job can lick me today because by the end of day I'll have a better one and then I can tell my idiot boss to eat me.

What can't (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8258593)

someone invent an API,ABI,execution or whatever to work on all platforms.

You know one code to rule them all.

BTW I know of java, but really I cannot see anyone making doom 3 using java3d or premier using javamedia.

Sorry, excuess my ignorance.

Re:What can't (1)

Doug Neal (195160) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258721)

someone invent an API,ABI,execution or whatever to work on all platforms.

While that wouldn't be impossible - we have cross platform toolkits already e.g. Qt and wxWindows - the problem is getting everyone to use it. Developers who only do MFC for example aren't going to switch to Qt just because they could compile it on Linux, which they probably wouldn't want to bother doing anyway. The only way something like this could possibly work is if Microsoft made it their new "standard", and what are the chances of Microsoft standardising on something open and cross-platform? Pretty slim, unless they break it such that it only works properly on Windows.

Re:What can't (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8258791)

Great, now we should get back to the good ol'days of programming, 1's and 0's.
That should solve the problem.

Even windows can understand 1's and 0's, well most of the time anyway.

Re:What can't (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8259109)

The only way something like this could possibly work is if Microsoft made it their new "standard", and what are the chances of Microsoft standardising on something open and cross-platform? Pretty slim, unless they break it such that it only works properly on Windows.

Technically, that would be .NET provided you count in mono [go-mono.com] which pretty much makes .NET a cross-platform.. er.. platform. IMO, Microsoft hasn't bet the farm on this technology but it does have a good deal of momentum as standards and practices go. And you're right, it is "broken" outside win32 since mono doesn't support Windows.Forms directly. (But you can leverage wine to do this which brings us back to the article)

If you use mono and stick to the Gtk# libs you're pretty close to being cross platform for win32, linux and some unixes (virtually anywhere mono and Gtk will compile).

Its not perfect, but it works.

Still Not there... (1)

Zordas (596510) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258599)

Unfortunitly Wine (Winex) still doesn't play games very well. I purchased wine a little while ago and was unimpressed. In fact, games are the ONLY reason I still have a xp partition. The following link is to their database of applications. http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?appId=897

Re:Still Not there... (3, Informative)

Dreadlord (671979) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258667)

WineX can't just support every single game released for Windows, this is simply impossible, at least right now.

However, WineX supports the big hits pretty well, Call of Duty, Max Payne 2, Warcraft III, check out their list of supported games [transgaming.com].

If you are a subscriber, you can vote for games to get more support, and if the game is popular enough, they'll work on it.

WineX works great with supported games, and has dramatically decreased my Windows boots.

Re:Still Not there... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8258710)

that's why it's still in development :oP

Re:Still Not there... (1)

Zordas (596510) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258714)

Your absolutly correct (unfortunitly I accidently hit the send button while I was previewing) The Other game I play from time to time is Everquest, which doesn't work well either. No problem though, I truly believe they will work out the bugs eventually. Better yet. We need to get game programmers to just port over to Linux !

WINE Windows Driver Support (3, Interesting)

MrNybbles (618800) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258650)

Jan had to reimplement about 300 functions in order to make the driver, NTFS.sys, work. Jan used four different methods to implement the necessary calls:

Pass the call straight through to ntoskrnl.exe (yes, the real WinXP ntoskrnl.exe)

It would be nice if someone worked on native NTFS support for writing to the disk that worked as well as it does in Windows. As far as I know the 2.6.x Linux kernels support writing that can't make a NTFS file larger on the disk.

What seemed to interest everyone was not the fact that the native NT drivers can be used for filesystem access, but how it could be extended to support other drivers. In particular, native Windows printer drivers, serial drivers, video drivers, and networking drivers may be able to be implemented using a similar method. All that special hardware using "Win" soft drivers might be possible to get working.
I hope they get some support for Win9x drivers too since I have only one program on Windows that WINE can't run because of some special drivers it installs and expects to work. At least that's why I think it's not running. That's one problem with Windows support: Windows is not one operating system.

Re:WINE Windows Driver Support (4, Informative)

Derek Pomery (2028) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258763)

Oh, no prob. If Windows does it, should be a snap for those Linux boys.
So, you wouldn't happen to have an NTFS spec handy? Maybe you could get one from MS?
So far, I consider Linux reading NTFS and writing verrrry carefully without changing number of blocks a file uses to be impressive given it is all reverse engineering.
But hey. There's a solution, maybe you remember seeing this posted on /., multiple times?
NTFS full write [slashdot.org]

Oh, and btw, WINE does work with 95 too. Check your configs and documentation.

Legality question.. (3, Interesting)

stratjakt (596332) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258702)

If calls are being passed directly to/from drivers like NTFS.SYS and the actual WinXP kernel, does using Wine require a licensed copy of XP?

AFAIK you can't freely redistribute the XP kernel and system drivers.

Will we see WINE shut down at MSFTs whim one day?

Re:Legality question.. (4, Informative)

MrNybbles (618800) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258868)

WINE does not require a copy of XP except if you want to have good NTFS support. Many people who want or need good NTFS support already have Windows XP. If you want good NTFS support and don't have Windows XP then you are probably out of luck.

The Linux Kernel 2.6.x so far does not have very good NTFS writing support. With few exceptions I would suggest not using 2.6.x NTFS support until it nolonger says it is experimental. Also, I think the NTFS.SYS driver from WINE calls the Windows XP driver ntoskrnl.exe. The NTFS.SYS talked about in the article is part of WINE.

Re:Legality question.. (1)

caseih (160668) | more than 10 years ago | (#8259088)

No it doesn't require a licensed copy of XP to run wine. But to run any of the drivers that ship with XP, especially ntfs.sys, then yes a licensed copy of XP is required. This is the basis for the captive-ntfs driver also. It requires you have XP already installed, then grabs its ntfs.sys and then uses that to mount the filesystem. If you don't have XP, then you can't legally use the ntfs.sys driver at all.

Bug or Feature? (0, Redundant)

crashcane (64138) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258723)

He pointed out that Microsoft Office now "just works. You can use it all day long and you won't see the difference." Then he added that wasn't 100% true because, "The Paperclip still doesn't work."

Wine still a pain (2, Interesting)

Apreche (239272) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258728)

While win is great and all, and I hope it gets better it has too many problems that are not being addressed. The biggest problem is how much of a pain in the butt it is to configure. Wine needs some sort of easy or automatic configuration tool. I mean, when it's easier to set up xfree86 than it is to set up wine we have a problem.

The second and most obvious thing is that because wine exists then less software will be made for linux in the meantime. There is at least one person out there who said to themselves "why bother porting this windows app to linux, they can just use wine". Many many open source apps are ported to windows every day because we have tools like cygwin and minigw with which to recompile them. I think this is the biggest barrier to linux taking more market share. Many people I encounter wouldn't mind switching, but there is always one or two applications that they absolutely need that hold them back. Wine can help, if it works for those apps, because that person will be able to switch. But wine can also hurt because that app will never get a real port, especially if it is closed source. The fact that wine is hard to configure and that it doesn't work perfectly tend to make wine more hurt than help.

Re:Wine still a pain (2, Insightful)

stratjakt (596332) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258861)

The second and most obvious thing is that because wine exists then less software will be made for linux in the meantime.... this is the biggest barrier to linux taking more market share.

Why? Who cares?

The average user wouldnt care if the app their running was compiled for linux natively, or is being emulated, so long as it works seamlessly.

A WINE that worked, was effortless to install, had a compatibility with XP in the high 90%'s (including the latest DirectX - big issue, games are probably the most cited reason home users stay on windows), would be a huge reason to run linux on the desktop.

Users could simply be told "look, here's this free product, that's more stable, more secure, AND runs all Windows applications to boot". People start using linux, MSFT responds by breaking compatibilities in their next OS, breaking compatibility with XP in the process, pissing people off, driving more to linux..

There are plenty of apps I use that only have Windows versions, and I frankly prefer to any OSS counterparts I've seen. DVD/CD burning software, some dev tools (yeah, I much prefer Visual Studio to anything in the OSS world I've seen)..

And as far as games go, I know there's a handful of linux titles, but by and large there's no comparison.

As I see it, at that point, hardware support would be the biggest (only?) thing holding linux back from the desktops of the world.

Open source virtual machines? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8258820)

If you need both windows and linux software wine is an alternative... But have you tried vmware [vmware.com] ?

I use it at work to run virtual machines on linux and at home (with the work license so dont tell anyone...)on windows. It works perfectly well with debian as server and as a VM! (although its not officially supported, so some extra effort is required... but knoppix is the easy way to go)

VM is technically very different from wine but has lots of advantages.
Its much more, so the problem (for users like me...) is the price (i think 300$).

Does anybody know about any other solution? How about starting an open source virtual machine project? Now that would be great!! ;-)

freebsd (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8259190)

and vmware also supports freebsd!

ReactOS (4, Interesting)

dcuny (613699) | more than 10 years ago | (#8258996)

For me, the most interesting thing happening in Wine has been the ReactOS [reactos.com] project. Basically, it's an attempt to clone the Windows NT operating system.

There have been a number of attempts to clone the Windows OS in the past (i.e. Freedows and the Alliance OS), but most of them have self-destructed with no real product.

The ReactOS, on the other hand, has managed to get the core NT working, and has been added the Wine libraries to supply much of the functionality. Earlier last month they released a version with a functioning Windows Explorer clone [reactos.com], and they seem well on the way of reaching the goal of running OpenOffice and Mozilla by October, 2004 [reactos.com]. The target of a fully functional Windows OS replacement is only about a year away.

same old wine story (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8259076)

I've been using Linux for 10 years. Back in the day there was dosemu and wine. The story was that wine was getting close, wine was getting better, wine was getting usable.

Every once in a while I would give wine another try and find that wine was still not working. I don't think very much has changed in 10 years with the wine project.

At this point I have no interest anymore in using wine, I just use linux and native linux apps.

IMHO the wine developers should focus their efforts on linux and native linux applications, and users should request native linux applications from the software vendors.
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