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More on IBM 75GXP Drive Fiasco

michael posted more than 10 years ago | from the quality-control-is-priority-one dept.

Data Storage 371

FolkImplosion writes "Internal documents have been released suggesting that IBM was well-aware that its click-of-death 75GXP hard drives had a failure rate of as much as 10 times that of its competitors. IBM apparently sold drives it knew were faulty into distribution, and reportedly planned to deal with any issues with marketing spin rather than a fixing the problem. This new information should help bolster a class action suit that accuses IBM knowingly shipped defective 75GXP drives with abnormally high failure rates." The lawfirm pursuing the class action suit has a page of information, including the latest news report (pdf) on information coming out in the suits. See also our original story about the drive failures.

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371 comments

eff pee! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8314689)

fap fap fap

IBM would never do that ! (0, Offtopic)

andy666 (666062) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314692)

They are the enemy of SCO - good guys! heehehe...

Re:IBM would never do that ! (-1, Redundant)

wiggys (621350) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314710)

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Reputation (5, Insightful)

radionotme (742163) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314702)

This can't do IBM's reputation much good - fortunately for them the damage should be minimised since they no longer sell hard disks directly (so little loss of business)

Re:Reputation (4, Funny)

yobbo (324595) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314795)

But don't we all love them now because they support linux?

Ah, this gets so confusing.

Re:Reputation (3, Insightful)

Flywheel (23961) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314850)

No - we fear them!
We know that IBM is capable of turning against strategic platforms overnight - they have done so in the past.
We are glad they're here, due to their ability to stabilize the world. But we love their technology (Primarily Designs and Fab's) - but we do not love IBM - we fear them!

Re:Reputation (5, Insightful)

ob1knob777 (700881) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314830)

I wonder if this was why they sold the hard disk business off to Hitachi in the first place. Maybe they knew about the high failure rate and wanted to wash their hands of the whole mess before it got too bad?

Re:Reputation (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8314868)

I wouldn't touch an IBM harddisk (now Hitachi) with a long pole. This desaster definitely hurt the value of their storage division. I have also had very bad experiences with Maxtor harddisks from about 3-4 years back. These have been failing left and right for a couple months now, mostly just out of the 3 year warranty, plus they use ball bearings which very often became noisy after just a few months of normal use. Right now I prefer Samsung drives. These are the only consumer drivers which still come with a 3 year warranty. They are also comparatively cool running, fast and almost silent. I'm counting on the fluid dynamic bearings to stay that silent. We'll see.

The Ride from Hell (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8314703)

Beth smiled as the young hitchhiker ran up to her car at the side of the road as she pulled over. He was about 18, she thought. Perfect. "Where you headed?" she asked as he slid in eagerly. "New Hampshire," he answered brightly. "How far are you going?" "As far as it takes me to get off," she said with an evil smile. The kid looked at Beth curiously. The 45-year-old short-haired blonde was a very pretty woman, dark eyes, creamy skin. She wore a light tanned business suit that featured a very short tan skirt, and brown sandals. Her long, lean legs were showing to good effect, calves and thighs that rippled with the years of aerobic training she'd had.

She caught him looking and he looked quickly out the window. "That's OK," she said, reaching over to pat his thigh, very close to his cock. "They all look at these legs." He didn't answer right away, then said, "What...what did you mean, as long as it takes to get off?" Beth laughed. "I mean this!!" Without warning, she reached over and punched his nuts, hard, causing him to roar in pain and lean over in his seat. Beth quickly grabbed his long hair and pulled him to her, keeping one eye on the road as she drove. She lifted her leg and pushed him underneath, face up, and sat down hard, adjusting her seat and the steering wheel to accomodate him. It was a snug fit, just the way she liked it, the kids face buried in the cheeks of her naked ass; she wore no panties. She wiggled until his nose popped inside her hairy assring. She wiggled more.

"This is what I mean," she hissed. "Until I get off on your face by doing this!!!" The kid heard a horrible rumble and then felt a huge, warm rush of air blast directly up his nose. Beth farted long and deep, the thick stench of last night's cabbage and rice dinner steaming into his brain. He screamed and tried to buck free,but she punched his nuts again and again until he quieted down. She laughed and farted again, almost overcome by the stench she was putting out. "Christ, that IS bad, it must be agony from where you are!" she laughed. The kid was gagging from the smell and the fact that her creamy right asscheek was burying his mouth, the other his eyes.

She lifted her right leg a bit to let him suck in some air to survive, then draped it over his mouth again, choking him. "Here's all the air you need," she hissed. "Don't mind the chunks!" Beth farted again,loudly and this time wetly, a sheet of drizzly shit boring up his nose on the wings of 100 mph ass gas. The kid cried, but the tears couldn't come out, they were held tight into his eyes by the fierce press of Beth's ass meat. "Almost there....there...." Beth growled dreamily, gyrating her stinky ass, farting on his nose and rubbing her hairy pussy with one hand, the other on the wheel. Then she came, long and hard and facesat him so brutally rough he passed out. She laughed and let him go, pulling him to a sitting position and allowing him to come around.

Just before he was fully away, she pulled him back down, facefirst into her pussy from the side, his head just clearing the steering wheel as she drove. She hitched up a specially made harness from the seat back that fit over the top of his head and held his face firm to her smelly pussy. And smell it did. She hadn't bathed in the last few days. Then there was that string.

"See that?" she laughed as she felt him squirm in the harness as he came around. "I'm having my period. If you're careful, you can lick my clit and make me come without getting yourself messy. But if you don't...well, you know..." The kid knew and resisted, but Beth leaned over and yanked his cock and nuts, which she'd freed from his tight jeans as he was out. She also farted again and again, the wall of stench rising up between her pussy lips and washing over his face. The kid cried - and stuck his tongue out, trying to ignore the cheesy milk wadded up between Beth's excessively hairy pussy lips. He lapped at her cunt mound and she moaned. "Make me cum, slave, or I'll kill you in my farts," she hissed. She came, hard and fast, snapping her hips and damn near breaking his neck as his head was forced to go along for the ride in the constraint of the harness.

When she finished, she reached down and started pulling out the string. "NOOOOOOOO!!!" he screamed. "Too bad," she giggled. She yanked out the bloody tampon and wiped his face with it before stuffing it up a nostril. Quickly undoing the harness, she rammed his head under her ass again, as she first had it, but this time burying his mouth in the bloody mulch of her cheesy cunt, forcing him to lick the gooey gash clean. "Hey, at least you can breathe this time," she laughed, rubbing her pussy with her free hand, forcing more cuntal gel into his mouth which he had to swallow or die. Beth rode his face to a half dozen more orgasms, finally reaching over to stroke his cock to life.

"You've earned this," she sighed. And as she jacked his stiffening cock, smiling at the honks of passing truckers who could see down into her car at what was going on, she came again, all over his bloody face, farting all the while, adding a tangy mix of shitty air to the cheesy stench of her foul pussy. The kid was far from horny, but as Beth expertly milked his cock and nuts in one hand, pumping the base and rubbing his prostate, he gave up a monster load. She aimed the jetting cockhead up toward her legs and a thick arch of spunk ribboned over her top thigh and landed in the vee of her punishing legs, coating his face. She jacked him to completion and then used the same hand to rub all his cum into his mouth and the nostril not still occupied by her bloody tampon. She came one last time with a clench of ass and thigh that smothered him out. She pulled over in a secluded rest area and rolled him out, laughing as he lay snoring in the bushes, his face white with come and red with her blood. Just for the helluva it, she slipped out and squatted over his face, taking his nose deep into her hairy shit chute. "Ahhhhhhhhhh..." she hissed, letting out a wet, sibilant fart that rocketed directly into his brain tissue and had the misfortune, for him, of waking him up to smell where he was. He screamed in agony, and rolled away,desperately rubbing his face into leaves and dirt to get the stink off. "Thanks for the lift," Beth laughed, jumping into her car and driving off.

Can Someone Translate? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8314704)

Knowing michael, and his well known history of hyping stories to push his anti-corporate agenda, I wouldn't be surprised if he's trying to troll this story once again.

We seriously need real editors on this site. The lies and deceptions from michael is getting to be too much.

I'm voting Dean!!! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8314705)

He's a Mac(gHey) user, and that's all that really matters....at least to me and the MacSlash crowd!!!

-AcaBen
www.macslash.org

Never a problem (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8314708)

I've had one of these babies in my Dell 4100 for
years and never a problem. There was a firmware
update released ages ago.

Same here (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8314800)

I bought a retail 60GB GXP back in 2000 or 2001 (forget which year). I understand it's basically the same drive as the 75GXP, but with one fewer platter. It tells linux that it is called "IBM-DLTA-307060".

This things's been in my machine running between 12 and 24 hours a day since then, and I haven't had a single problem with it. Both windows and linux have been using it. I have a passive heatsink on the drive, and my box has an adequate power supply for all the hardware in it.

I have a feeling that many retail hdd failures can be attributed to people letting their drives overheat, or else not having an adequate power supply for their system. Such problems were endemic back when the GXP came out.

An alternative explanation is that IBM had recently opened a production facility in Hungary. It is possible that they were still smoothing out the bumps there, so to speak.

But I really don't think it's a basic problem with the design --- my IBM GXP has behaved superbly.

Minor correction (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8314852)

I bought a retail 60GB GXP back in 2000 or 2001 (forget which year). I understand it's basically the same drive as the 75GXP, but with one fewer platter. It tells linux that it is called "IBM-DLTA-307060".

Well, I had a look at a page on Hitachi's web site [hgst.com] , and -- no shit -- my main hard drive is a 75GXP. It is simply the 60GB model of the 75GXP.

So anyway, you can chalk me up as a 75GXP success story. No complaints here.

Re:Never a problem (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8314872)

You must be that same Texan I talked to one night when I had the misfortune of calling Dell tech support. Remember me? You told me that I could only run the firmware update for a dvd burner under Windows since it loaded during Windows startup ;)

beego ogeeb (-1, Offtopic)

beego ogeeb (753899) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314716)

BASEABASDEBASEBASEBASE LIB BASE
SHINELIBBASE

geebee begee bgeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
so many

HEHEHEHEH BASE BASE ... BASE BASE
LIB

lib

He came with me. I was so flattered! My reindeer is special to me. He can fly, and needs no oxygen. I heard in my dreams what the universe coughed up for my past's revelation! Why, why, why? It could not be. I gardened all night yesterday! My tomatos were ripe with red, and beautiful for all my neighbors to see. I've been professional all my life. Because I knew plants and veges since I was young. And I read all the science there is on the earth, so I knew I would explore for more knowledge when I got older. I build my reindeer for flight..to outer space!

Decoration is not so good in my family. I put lots and lots of colored plastic on my reindeer! He looks like a toy, so when all the children pass by in the afternoon after a fruitful day of learning, they come to see my reindeer! I show them how he uses a special propulsion device to kick his thin little legs to make his big heavy body go so, so fast! The only tool I used was the pruner. I'm a poor man, and the magnetism I bought at K-Mart was very expensive!

So I was in the sky with my reindeer. He was much faster than the military jets that were trying to chase us! The reindeer said to me, "you are so talented my gardener-builder!". I thanked him, and then grabbed a bird that was flying by. I sqeezed it and made it poop all over the attacking jets! They shot missiles, but they were no match. My reinder was rudolph, and he had a red nose that had an anti-infrared emitter!

We climb, and we climb, and we climb into the stratosphere! My liberal friend said that the moon had a myth. One of non-existence! But there it was, so dark, and HAIRY! I said to my reindeer, "what is wrong with the moon?". He calculated his answer and spoke to me in the Frenchy language. "eh, sevu ple". I replied to my reindeer, "I don't-a speak-a no-a Frenchy!". He said I was smart, and that I could figure it out on my own. And he was correct. Deep down, even though I didn't want it to be true, I knew. The moon was my father!

As we approached within a few feet of my dad he mumbled a question. "Ehhhh, rrr, eehh, what do you want?"

I said to him:

BASEABASDEBASEBASEBASE LIB BASE
SHINELIBBASE

geebee begee bgeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
so many

HEHEHEHEH BASE BASE ... BASE BASE
LIB

lib

A cult classic was born!

pp
ppp

Makes me wonder about the Hitachi ones out now? (2, Interesting)

Artifex (18308) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314717)

Any comments from pactical experience as to the quality of the drives after Hitachi bought the division and started selling them under its own name? I currently have one of the 160GB, and I bought it at Fry's back in January.

Re:Makes me wonder about the Hitachi ones out now? (3, Informative)

AGTiny (104967) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314759)

I have 3 of the 3-year warranty 120GB/8MB models and 1 has failed within a year. Hitachi apparently doesn't do advance-replace so I bought a new drive to replace the failed one (they are in raid5) and shipped the failed one back. When I get a replacement I guess I'll have a 4-drive array. :) I think these drives are pretty good though, and a 3-year warranty makes me feel better.

Re:Makes me wonder about the Hitachi ones out now? (4, Interesting)

Warpedcow (180300) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314860)

I'm in a similar situation - I have 4 of the 3-yr-warranty 180GB/8MB models in a RAID 5 array (with the addonics scsi to ide adapters). I've had them for about 8 months now, no problems. I also have an older IBM 120GB drive that still works fine. My parents and sister have had 40GB and 80GB IBM drives with no problems for years, except when I dug around in my parents system and when I put it back together, their 40GB seems to have some really bad sectors... I was able to recover most of the data off the drive though... I blame this incident on myself and not IBM (since it failed right after I dickered around with it).

Also, I should note that my RAID 5 of the 180GBs gets VERY heavy use.

I wonder if drive temp has anything to do with these problems? My 180GBs and 120GB are right next to two case fans, they stay really cool...

Cheers,
Dave

Re:Makes me wonder about the Hitachi ones out now? (3, Informative)

13Echo (209846) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314904)

I've purchased at least 6 of the 60GXP line. I've had a single failed drive in the past three years. I still need to RMA that thing, but I've just been lazy about it.

I'm not sure that the 60GXP fall victim to the same failured that the 75GXP did. It seems to be that when IBM went to the 20GB platter sizes, and redisigned their drives, things got better.

I have in the past had data corruptions on one or two occasions. I'm pretty sure that this was from my Highpoint RAID controller though. After I stopped using it, I never had another problem with the drive.

I still can't help but believe that this is why IBM sold off the mechanical storage division to Hitachi. IBM claimed that they were going to work on some newer types of storage, but we've seen very little so far.

Re:Makes me wonder about the Hitachi ones out now? (3, Interesting)

PhiltheeG (688063) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314789)

Here at work use IBM through and through. Not many problems with any Think Centres but some batches of them come with Western Digital drives inside. We replace faulty drives with Maxtor drives and have had the best results with them, although there are some that are very noisy (but haven't and won't die). Loads vary due to segment: either workstation (client server and word, no big stress) or student workstation (they've seen the worst).

Personally, I have had horrid luck with the Western Digital JB (i.e. special edition) series. All have failed on me and I wouldn't trust them outside of an IDE RAID mirrored situation. About a dozen Maxtor drives have yet to die. I also have Fujistu, Seagate and the old IBM 8.4 original quit drives (best drive ever, IMO).

From what I see at deal sites like fatwallet and bens bargain's, overall drive quality has gone down in the past year or so. Some drives are over abused though, as I've seen people rip DVD's and re-encode to the same drive and wonder why they fail after about 8 months...

Re:Makes me wonder about the Hitachi ones out now? (1, Funny)

SpinyManiac (542071) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314799)

I've got a 120GB/8MB 7200RPM Hitachi.
What can I say? It's a hard disk.

The only problem is it makes that "dying hard drive squeak". It always has, it passes all diagnostics and it works fine.

It's a good drive, but the noise worries me sometimes.

Re:Makes me wonder about the Hitachi ones out now? (4, Interesting)

Baron of Greymatter (156831) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314870)

I don't know about the desktop drives, but my employer uses the Travelstar 20 and 40 Gb laptop drives. Our manufacturer in Korea used them because they were manufactured there and there was no import duty on them.

I should say "used to use" them. About 30% of those drives died by the time our customers received the product they were installed into (voicemail systems - 24/7/365 uptime required). Now our customers are pissed and threatening to sue us.

We ordered our manufacturer to switch back to Toshiba (which is what we used previously). They work.

Institutional behaviour (5, Insightful)

heironymouscoward (683461) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314718)

It's not rarely corporate policy to release faulty products. (Microsoft freaks, step aside, please.)

What happens is that internal politics turn problems into cover ups. Someone, somewhere decides that it's more logical to ignore the issue than to address it. The falacy continues up the line, since decisions are often based on information from 'down the line'.

The best thing IBM can do is to issue a general recall, offer generous replacement policies ("bring it in, we'll fix it on the spot") and try to recover their image as a reliable drive manufacturer. Otherwise their HD business is down the drain.

Oh wait! They sold it to Fujitsu! OK, sue their asses!

Re:Institutional behaviour (4, Insightful)

wiggys (621350) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314736)

The best thing IBM can do is to issue a general recall, offer generous replacement policies ("bring it in, we'll fix it on the spot")

But that's simply not good enough. If it was a graphics card or something then fair enough... it's just another piece of hardware and one is as good as another. But hard-drives are different as the data on them may not be replaceable if the unit fails, and even if you have it swapped for a new one for free then you have to transfer all the data over to the new one... which is a royal pain in the arse if you're multibooting different OSes.

Re:Institutional behaviour (5, Insightful)

millahtime (710421) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314819)

"...you have to transfer all the data over to the new one... which is a royal pain in the arse..."

I hate to point this out but should should do the whole backup thing. I mean even a high reliability HD occasionally fails.

Re:Institutional behaviour (4, Insightful)

Evil Adrian (253301) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314841)

The data probably isn't lost though; "click of death" sounds like the drive is failing because one of the moving parts (most likely the arm or the motor) is burnt out. That shouldn't affect the platter (and therefore the data) inside the drive, so a drive recovery place should be able to get the data off of the drive.

Data recovery gets expensive, though, so if IBM would foot the bill in addition to a drive replacement, that might make up for the gigantic problem they've created.

But then you factor in the inconvenience... really, IBM should replace the drive, WITH your data on it, AND issue you a gift certificate or something to make amends...

Re:Institutional behaviour (4, Insightful)

jdkane (588293) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314851)

If it was a graphics card or something then fair enough... it's just another piece of hardware and one is as good as another. But hard-drives are different as the data on them may not be replaceable if the unit fails,

For this reason it is the user's responsibility to ensure the data is backed up properly. IBM can be blamed for a high failure rate, but not for a hard drive failing. In the end, all hard drives eventually fail. If the data is non-replaceable then no doubt the user has a rigid backup plan in place to ensure safety of the data; if not then the user is acting unwise no matter what type of hard drive is in the machine.

Re:Institutional behaviour (2, Insightful)

gad_zuki! (70830) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314875)

>But hard-drives are different as the data on them may not be replaceable if the unit fails

So? Its still hardware, legally as equal to a video card. Its up to the user/admin to backup the data. Yes, it is a pain but HDs shouldn't have some special status amongst hardware, if anything we need better consumer reports and reliability data before buying.

This is the crux of the issue (2, Interesting)

Marxist Commentary (461279) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314878)

it is never in the interest of a corporation to stop any product from coming to market NO MATTER WHAT. There are intense pressures from higher management to perform, and to hell with the consequences.

Sure, this is "just" a hard drive, it can be replaced. What about when corporate negligance leads to permanent damage of people (e.g., health care)? What about deaths at the hands of corporations?

I have one ... (5, Interesting)

robnauta (716284) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314719)

I had one. After about a year it failed, in summer so I suspect it had been running too hot. More and more bad sectors with the familiar scraping sound.

But after I got tired of running scandisk for hours to mark bad sectors daily, I erased it with IBM's DFT (drive fitness test).
And it has been fine ever since.

It looked like the heat made it lose its calibration, unable to find the exact position on the disk for some sectors.

Re:I have one ... (0, Troll)

The-Perl-CD-Bookshel (631252) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314788)

Redundant: because I already posted about keeping the IBM drives cool to keep them happy, but I must say that you are 100% correct in assuming that the heat was making it lose its calibration. I just wish I didn't post so I could use my remaining 4 mod. points on this thread.

P.S. I'm the one with the 10drive array working for a year

Re:I have one ... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8314866)

And your name is Troy McClure?

Obviously not your answer to EVERYTHING ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8314918)

Your signature says: "Punt to Longhorn" is my new answer to EVERYTHING!
If this were indeed true, you would have said "Punt to Longhorn" instead of "... I must say that you are 100% correct in assuming that the heat was making it lose its calibration."

-MA

Re:I have one ... (5, Interesting)

phrasebook (740834) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314813)

I had mine fail after about 9 months, and it was also pretty hot in my case, and during summer. I also had a 60GXP in there so I was worried. After it failed I bought a new case with fans right in front of the hard drives. The 60GXP is still going fine but is extremely noisy now (not clicking, just whine).

IBM's DFT thing didn't work for me. It cleared the drive for a little while but the noises came back and it wouldn't work.

Didn't seem related to heat. Sometimes it'd occur as soon as it spun up, sometimes it would be fine for days. I think if it spun up normally, it would keep going ok until it was next powered on.

Ever since then I've been paranoid about hard drives and went to the trouble of mirroring all the partitions on my server using linux software RAID-1. Works nicely and boots off either drive.

Re:I have one ... (2, Interesting)

SpinyManiac (542071) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314854)

I've also had a IBM drive fail due to heat.
Hitachi honoured the warranty, but I had to pay for postage to the Netherlands (I'm in the UK).

I bought a 120GB while I waited for my 60GB to get back, and stuck the PC in a new case with four 80mm fans. One fan blows over both hard drives, and I haven't had trouble since

On the other hand, my laptop has had a 20GB Hitachi (pre IBM) drive, a IBM 40GB and a Hitachi/IBM 60GB. None have given any trouble, despite getting pretty hot. It looks like laptop drives don't mind the heat as much.

Re:I have one ... (1)

vibrations (719921) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314864)

I bought four 80 gig IBM Deskstars a couple of years ago and *all* of them died within 12 months.

I still have working Seagate drives five years after purchasing them.

These days i buy Maxtor - very quiet and (so far) reliable. And yes, all the IBM's started clicking just before they died. I managed to salvage the data on one by putting it in a ziplock bag in the freezer overnight. It worked for another 2 hours and then clicked out.

Go figure ; )

Re:I have one ... (1)

MetalMorph (528717) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314907)

I prefer Western Digital. The only problem I've ever had with a WD dying on me was when one was damaged during shipping. Had no problems getting a replacement.

Between my two 7200RPM WD drives and my CPU fan, I can't even hear the drives.

Isn't that the way we do things now? (5, Insightful)

millahtime (710421) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314721)

Don't we build cheaper things that are less reliable so that you have to buy new ones more often. Many industries already do that. They can make a light bulb that goes for 10 or 20 years no problem. And I can buy one that is garunteed to go for 5 years. But there are still ones that have 2500 hours. This concept isn't something new.

"Fiasco" (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8314724)

A bit editorial don't you think. A bit hyperbole, perhaps. A Troll word, even???

Re:"Fiasco" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8314737)

It's getting worse.

"Torpedoes" anyone? [slashdot.org]

Goes to show you who the real trolls of slashdot are. And there's no moderation that can punish this behavior.

What happens when you trolls are running this site? You get michael sims.

And i thought it was normal.. (4, Interesting)

boaworm (180781) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314730)

that two of three HDs failed within 2 years.. :)

Atleast I want to give credits to IBM for an excellent replacement procedure, I have received two new drives without any hazzles what so ever. Impressive actually, considering the trouble I've had trying to get replacement ASUS Graphic cards etc...

Re:And i thought it was normal.. (2, Informative)

Albanach (527650) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314760)

I have received two new drives without any hazzles what so ever. Impressive actually, considering the trouble I've had trying to get replacement ASUS Graphic cards etc

Have you thought about buying an anti-static wrist strap, that sure seems like a lot of repalcements :)

Re:And i thought it was normal.. (4, Informative)

n3k5 (606163) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314791)

I have received two new drives without any hazzles what so ever
Replacing drives, even if you can stay at home with your computer and have them delivered to your front door quickly, is always a hassle. Of course, if you don't have a backup, it's your own fault, but for most people it wouldn't be reasonable to do a _daily_ backup (automatic incremental backups are convenient and don't use up much space, but most users don't want to set them up and test if they really work), and also most people don't have images of their drives, but only copies of their data, so they have to reinstall their OS and all their apps. I haven't had a hard drive failure in over ten years, so I think it's very reasonable to spend a day or two recovering if and when it happens instead of spending a lot of time on cloning my drives every day. But the day it does happen, it will be a hassle.

IBM... pah! (3, Insightful)

darth_silliarse (681945) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314733)

Forget IBM drives, Seagate [seagate.com] or Maxtor [maxtor.com] produce the best quality hard drives

Western Digital (4, Informative)

Futurepower(R) (558542) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314764)

Western Digital drives have been extremely reliable for us: No failures. I haven't needed drive technical support for a long time, but a while ago WD had the best technical support. 3 year warranty on Retail boxed drives.

Re:Western Digital (3, Interesting)

fafaforza (248976) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314798)

We've had worse luck with WD. Every month it seems we have to send back a drive after diagnosing a problem with it with WD's software. We've moved to Seagate and Maxtor as a result.

Re:Western Digital (1)

Nimrangul (599578) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314876)

I've had a new, fresh Maxtor harddrive die on me in under five days. Another lasted a couple months.

I hardly think it wise to switch to Maxtor from anything, Seagate's are better.

Infact, the harddrive I have on this machine has already started acting up and it's not even 6 months old.

Re:IBM... pah! (1)

SpinyManiac (542071) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314881)

I've only ever seen one dead Maxtor drive, and that was DOA. I've seen a few WD die, and Fujitsus drop like flies.

You wouldn't belive the number of 10GB Fujitsus I've replaced. Eventually the supplier started sending Maxtor and WD drives instead.

IBM staff still need to feed their families (-1, Flamebait)

Larry David (738420) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314746)

People seem to get upside over this hard drive stuff, and sure, companies will make a screw up every now and then. But perhaps we should look at whether we should bust their chops for it every time it happens. IBM staff still need to feed their families and get paychecks.

Do you really want 1000 IBM staff to be laid off because of a single hard drive model? Think of the children who will go hungry because their parents aren't bringing in a paycheck. Seriously folks, this all comes down to the children at the end of the day. They're the ones who suffer if this class action lawsuit succeeds.

Humans make mistakes, let it go. And before you say 'IBM is a corporation'.. well, corporations are recognised as legal entities (i.e. like a person) in law, so they should be allowed to make mistakes from time to time too. I certainly wouldn't want those children's blood on my hands. Would you?

Re:IBM staff still need to feed their families (1)

millahtime (710421) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314793)

"Do you really want 1000 IBM staff to be laid off because of a single hard drive model?"

Those 1000 IBMers shouldn't have too much to worry about. Whether they fixed it or not they would either go on to the next project or be laid of anyway when that project was over. Obviously they didn't fix it. I just hope they learned a lesson about reliabality from this.

What a load of crap (-1, Troll)

SmallFurryCreature (593017) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314823)

If you make a mistake you should own up and correct the mistake. Not cover it up and cry think of the poor employees. What about the poor consumer?

IBM released a product that was crap and it seems they knew it was crap. If they had been selling it at a fraction of the price it might have been okay. What they however did was knowningly and delibaretly screw their customer.

If IBM had made a simple mistake then the answer would have been simple. Issue a complete recall and replace the drives at no cost to the consumer. Even better offer free assistence in recovering any lost data. If they had issued the recall in time their would have been very little lost data to recover as people could have copied the data from the still functioning drives.

But no IBM spun marketing into action and let people loose data and then claim it was their fault. Sadly the only way to get companies to stop doing this kinda stuff is to sue.

You sir are an idiot. Go stand inline with the other idiots and prepare to be kicked in the ass until your head pops out.

Re:What a load of crap (-1, Redundant)

notamac (750472) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314927)

So let me get this straight... we don't like IBM today? Until there's another SCO story and then we do like them? What if they sold those drives to SCO... then could we like them for making bad drives? I'm so terribly confused.

Re:IBM staff still need to feed their families (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8314825)

Do you really want 1000 IBM staff to be laid off because of a single hard drive model?

I first heard about the click of death and unusually high failure rates beginning with the 40GB DeskStar models. Everything that came after the 40GB DeskStar appeared to have similarly high failure rates.

If they can no longer make drives that work, then the answer to your question is yes, I want 1000 IBM staff to have to go find something to do that they can be successful at instead.

Also, corporations should not be recognized as legal entities like people. I know they are, but it's basically a bad thing. Corporations should have no rights whatsoever. Their rights should come only in the form of the rights of the executives, shareholders, and employees, but that's a whole 'nuther subject.

I certainly wouldn't want those children's blood on my hands. Would you?

Um, dude, I wasn't planning on killing their children. I don't know what you were thinking, but all I'm advocating is firing their parents.

Re:IBM staff still need to feed their families (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8314922)

Do you really want 1000 IBM staff to be laid off because of a single hard drive model?

So, 1000 IBMers are going to be laid off because of this?

I certainly wouldn't want those children's blood on my hands.
And not only are 1000 IBMers going to be laid off, their children are going to get executed?!

You're right, this has been blown out of proportion!!

Lawyers to pocket $100M, consumers to get coupon (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8314747)

People, get real. This is all about the lawyers.

The lawyers are suing IBM. They are paying all the costs. The "class" is made up of losers who lend their names by affirming they bought a "defective drive."

In the end, the lawyers will get to keep 30% to 50% of the settlement or award (the cash component); the losers will get a coupon for discounts on the purchase of IBM stuff.

If you feel you have been wronged by because your 1,000,000 hour MTBF drive will only last 900,000 hours, simply tell 10 of your friends and don't buy any IBM stuff.

Believe me, that's a lot more painful to IBM and a lot less destructive to our society.

Re:Lawyers to pocket $100M, consumers to get coupo (2, Insightful)

nomadic (141991) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314933)

The lawyers are suing IBM. They are paying all the costs. The "class" is made up of losers who lend their names by affirming they bought a "defective drive."

So? Class action suits take a lot of time and effort, why shouldn't they get paid for their work?

If you feel you have been wronged by because your 1,000,000 hour MTBF drive will only last 900,000 hours, simply tell 10 of your friends and don't buy any IBM stuff.

Inefficient, useless, and kind of dumb. First of all if my friend tells me that he had a problem with a piece of hardware, I'm not going to assume that manufacturer makes generally shoddy merchandise. I'll just assume he got a bad drive.

Secondly, it doesn't fix my problem, namely that I spent money on a drive that didn't perform as it was supposed to. IBM breached a warranty, they should compensate me for the money I spent buying the drive in the first place.

Re:Lawyers to pocket $100M, consumers to get coupo (2, Insightful)

notamac (750472) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314944)

But we like IBM... we should go out and help them fend of the lawyers shouldn't we?

Shouldn't we?

Not only the 75GXP (5, Informative)

Troed (102527) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314751)

.. the same problem applied to the 60GXP and the earliest 120GXP drives (a friend just had his 120GXP click to death the other week) aswell.

The problem can be solved with a software upgrade in the drive.

This site has it all: http://www.pheuron.de/index.htm?deathstar.htm

Any still running? (5, Informative)

eamber (121675) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314752)

Does anyone still have one of these? I purchased two 30 gig 75GXP's - first one died after about 2 months. The second after 6.

I RMA'd them - drive 1 was RMA'd a total of 6 times; drive 2, 7 times.

I got so disgusted with dealing with them that I replaced them outright with larger Maxtor drives and haven't had a problem since.

I sold one of the IBM drives on ebay to some poor sucker - the other one is sitting on a shelf waiting to be taken to the firing range.

Re:Any still running? (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8314805)

Runs great A+++++++ Seller BEST Hardrive Ive ever owned!!!!!!!!!!

Re:Any still running? (0, Offtopic)

Zigg (64962) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314843)

Dammit, I just spent my last mod point... hehe.

Re:Any still running? (0, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8314865)

I sold one of the IBM drives on ebay to some poor sucker


You sir, are a fuckwad.

Re:Any still running? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8314908)

What's wrong with selling a working harddisk to someone who sets his own price?

Re:Any still running? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8314898)

Sure, I bought one back in 2000. It's been running pretty much continuously since then, with no problems. I do have a big ol heatsink on it though.

And 60gxp? (2, Informative)

PipianJ (574459) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314754)

Yes yes, we know the 75gxp drives were defective. But I've known about 60gxp drives dying too (And I've had one happen to me. Not a pleasant sight.) Yet noone seems to care about that. What's MY recourse?

Re:And 60gxp? (1)

Sockpuppetofdoom (678616) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314818)

You have none, at this point, nfortunately... All you cna do is wait for more to latch on and wait for this to make front page on Yahoo, or at least the Business page..

Re:And 60gxp? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8314905)

At my old job, the majority of our desktop machines were Dell Optiplex GX100 and GX110s, both containing 10GB and 15GB 60gxp drives. I swear I had at least 2 failures a week. Dell's drive checker program built into the Bios really came in handy. I could even verify talking to an end user over the phone. As soon as they'd mention that they had a GX110, it would be "OK, time to check the hard drive."

Dammit (1)

KFK - Wildcat (512842) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314757)

Can't we have one truly good corporation??
With the SCO business and active Linux support and marketing (Superbowl ad, etc), IBM was nearly at the top of my "Best Company" list...

Oh well. I'll go back to my belief that any and all corporations only want to reach the step 3. Profit!!! in the long run...

Re:Dammit (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8314792)

Oh well. I'll go back to my belief that any and all corporations only want to reach the step 3. Profit!!! in the long run...

No, the problem is they want to reach step 3 NOW even if it puts them in a weaker position to turn a profit in the future.

Engineering/manufacturing tolerance (3, Interesting)

Glenda Slagg (464228) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314758)

If a manufacturer only guarantees an item for one year (thought I notice 90 days is often the case in the US - it would be illegal here), as what point does a failure rate occuring after that first year constitute a problem with the product. If 50% fail within two years can this actuallt be seen as a problem with the product. In our modern-age ,Just what does guarantee actually mean...???

Google cache (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8314766)

Google cache [216.239.59.104] , for those who need it.

10 drive array working for 1 year (3, Informative)

The-Perl-CD-Bookshel (631252) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314767)

I have a 10 drive array (75GXP series) plugging away at about 20% load for a full year now, no failures. I have always had luck with IBM drives when I keep them chilled. If you want to keep your 75gxp drives happy, or any drives for that matter, keep them cool.

Hard drives and mainframe manufacturers (4, Interesting)

Nakito (702386) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314777)

IBM and Hitachi are two of the few manufacturers that still offer 3-year warranties on IDE hard drives. They are also two of the few mainframe manufacturers. I had thought that there was a correlation between these two facts -- perhaps that mainframe manufacturers regard storage as something more sacred or mission-critical than your average hard drive manufacturer. I am disappointed that IBM would knowingly ship drives with a too-high rate of failure. This is not consistent with their mainframe heritage.

Re:Hard drives and mainframe manufacturers (1, Funny)

perly-king-69 (580000) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314939)

Given that Hitachi now own IBM's HD business, I doubt whether you could call them two manufacturers.

The return of the IBM Deathstar! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8314779)

So the saga continues...

I personally lost a drive (40GB Deathstar 60GXP) :(
One fateful day, I booted up and was opening IE. Took unusually long with lots of HDD activity - then suddenly - the BSOD (ON XP!!!) appeared and began a kernel dump! I rebooted as usual (experienced it more with NT) and drive was never detected by the BIOS again...

I should've researched b4 buying IBM drives :/

Not surprised (2, Informative)

GeckoFood (585211) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314784)

I worked for a large retailer until recently and the hard drive of choice for our proprietary systems was an IBM drive of some sort. This drives were not the specific drive in question, but IBM nevertheless, and we had an unusually high and consistent number of failures with them. We finally switched to Seagate drives and the issue vanished.

The idea tat IBM might have a drive that fails even more than the drives we had in our stores is unnerving.

Groupthink needs synchronizing (-1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8314785)

Wait, I thought we were supposed to be big fans of IBM.

I guess I need to update my "slashdot-think" again. I am falling behind the times.

Tell me, do we still hate Microsoft?

Corporate Psychopaths (-1, Offtopic)

irishkev (457679) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314790)

Self-interested, amoral, callous and deceitful, a corporation's operational principles make it anti-social. It breaches social and legal standards to get its way even while it mimics the human qualities of empathy, caring and altruism. It suffers no guilt. Diagnosis: the institutional embodiment of laissez-faire capitalism fully meets the diagnostic criteria of a psychopath.

Link to story. [cryptogon.com]

Woah (-1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8314804)

Back up there a second Mikey.. I thought IBM were the good guys now?

My experiences weren't as bad (2, Insightful)

obi (118631) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314814)

I have two 75GXP running without any apparent problems. I've lost a 60GXP, but IBM replaced it instantly with a 180GXP that's been running non-stop without any problems.

So, all in all good experiences. The thing is, with capacities increasing as they do, a small problem can have increasingly disastrous consequences. That's why I've started using RAID1 setups for all machines containing non-expendable data. It's just not worth running the risk - failures happen, simultaneous failures are less common.

Defective Hardware (1)

lithiumfox (736891) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314815)

I had purchased two of these harddrives before, however something after a few months, and one of the harddrives did fail. I needed two working computers and could not wait for the long process of RMA to replace my harddrive. I went out a bought another one because that was pretty much my only option. Companies know that many people would not waste precious time to get an RMA for a product, and its really bad tactic to bring about consumer trust. I mean, how can you wait 6-8 weeks when you are running a company, you need your equipment to work and it really sucks to lose data. I would expect such things from IBM, but i havent purchased an ibm harddrive since then.

Re:Defective Hardware (2, Insightful)

AGTiny (104967) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314861)

This is why I like companies with an advance-replace model for the general consumer. I get replacement Maxtor's in 1-2 weeks and can copy data if I need to from the failed drive to the new drive before shipping the failed one back. IBM/Hitachi doesn't have A-R. :(

Burn the damn herd nerds (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8314820)

Wonderful how the whole herd of "must-have-latest-greatest-now" nerds got their drives and porn collections burned by this one. Thanks IBM! I applaud the genius who conceived this.

Failure Rates. (3, Interesting)

Sentosus (751729) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314834)

The biggest question is whether or not IBM knew the drives were failures and decided to make money on the drives selling them and then dump the business when lawsuits and RMAs were getting greater than the profit generated by their sells.

To those that RMAed more than 1 time, don't you feel like you are humping a pillow when that just can't give you satisfaction? Okay, bad part makes it to you. Okay, the replacement part is bad then we have a Quality Assurance issue. It is time to prevent the continue loss of time and break down to a new purchase.

In addition, those that RMAed the drives should not be part of the class action since IBM would not have profitted on a low margin being compounded with continuously replacing the drives. We make $2 each, but spend 70$ building them. We are 68$ in the hole for each one RMAed. See what I am saying?

At that point it is just Punative.

Now that there's more proof... (4, Interesting)

philthedrill (690129) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314842)

I think the problem was obvious when looking through forum posts of users who had 75GXP drives. It wasn't the number of failures as much as it was the number of failures per user. Sure, some people didn't have any problems, but many others had multiple drive failures, and the failure distribution was statistically abnormal.

As much as I'm happy that this is out in the open and that there's a class action suit, what will the users get out of this? In the tech world, two+ years is an eternity. Will they get the typical $20 voucher towards a new Hitachi drive while the class action lawyers get the millions? I had two fail on me in two months (on my VIA 686B south bridge while they worked fine on someone else's AMD south bridge). I had to fight IBM red tape as they kept trying to pawn me off on Acer but couldn't even give me the right point of contact at Acer (but I finally got through after six months).

You know what they say... in a lawsuit, the only winners are the lawyers.

Deskstar: very faulty, but very cool... (5, Interesting)

ozbird (127571) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314846)

We had a 20GB IBM Deskstar (probably 60GXP series) HDD fail at work recently; it was part of a mirrored (RAID 1) array, so no serious harm was done.

Being inquisitive folk, we cracked open the case to see what was inside. The cause of the failure was abundantly clear: the head assemblies had scraped the shiny, magnetic coating off about 2/3rds of the disk surface (on both sides) revealing the glass platter. I've never seen a glass platter before - they are so cool! :-D

The extent of damage was equally impressive; our "museum" of salvaged bits includes various head-crashed platters of considerable vintages, but this disk will certainly take pride of place in the collection.

Hungary? (1)

rqqrtnb (753156) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314855)

I know it was rumored that the problematic drives came from the Hungarian plant... was this ever confirmed?

"click of death" trademark earned by Iomega (1, Funny)

pacc (163090) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314863)

What is the "click of death"? [grc.com]

IBM don't need to get a free ride on Iomega's notoriously bad reputation, they have passed that mark on their own without any help.

Maybe there ougth to be a catchy name for the IBM deskstar experience, preferrably something that can follow their HD's reputation with them to Hitachi ;)

There is one. (3, Funny)

Artifex (18308) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314909)

Maybe there ougth to be a catchy name for the IBM deskstar experience, preferrably something that can follow their HD's reputation with them to Hitachi ;)


I got on IRC right after bringing home my Hitachi Deskstar 180GB drive (I wrote it as 160 elsewhere, oops), to brag about Fry's price of $70 after rebate.

The response? "You bought a DeathStar?"

Needless to say, that didn't please me much. Nor did Fry's lying to me about how they'd handle the rebate when the store didn't have the forms on hand, but that's an issue with them...

Not all these drives are bad. (1)

dfn_deux (535506) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314869)

I bought a pair of 30 gig desktars when they first came out and they are still humming away in a nice stripped array a few years later. Still work just like the day I bought them. While the failure rate on these drives was exceptionally high I think that the problem was probably poor QA and not poor design. A peek around the internet [google.com] shows there are others with similar experiences to mine. Just my .02

XBox rules!! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8314879)

first post!!! you lame assholes... I can post first because my XBox is a american product and my pride in my great country and my great XBox accelerate everything...

If only they would make games for that bitch... IAve played Metroid Prime and it ruled... I hope M$ will buy those japanese bastards and port Metroid to my great american console system!!!

Been there done that (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8314888)

I have around 10 of those beasts lying around.
All faulty, after 2-3 sending them in and getting replacements (which apparently were fixed faulty ones) which failed after two weeks again. I gave up.
One positive thing I can say about IBM they really managed the replacement excellently, but that doesnt help that I still have 10 faulty drives lying around which I already have given up of getting working drives for them any day.

The problem was that the drives first were excellent and blazingly fast, but the problems startet to arise after a few months, and then you are in a constantly getting burned with those things cycle.

A class action suit wont help, the only thing which really would help would be to replace all the sent in defective drives with newer models which work!

But oh wait, IBM has sold the HD division, ok lets sue them....

Ok, let me get this straight... (1)

Phil John (576633) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314890)

...if it's a wednesday then IBM are evil, otherwise they are good? ;o)

Or it could just be: support OSS=good, rip off consumer=bad.

wasn't only the 75 gig drives... (1)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314892)

I have had MANY IBM drives from that time period that failed horrible with the click of death from 15 gig to 40 gig. they ALL suffered the same design flaw that caused them to die 10X more than the same segate purchased at the same time and used the same.

I still have a pile of "out of warrenty" drives that are the replacements for the origional dead ones and some that are replacements for the replacements that are also dead now. as they certinaly did not extend the origional warrenty and made sure to tell you that fact.

Re:wasn't only the 75 gig drives... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8314938)

The story is about the 75GXP series of harddisks, which includes 15GB, 20GB, 30GB, 45GB, 60GB and 75GB disks. See here [hgst.com] for a list of models.

Which ones are reliable? (1)

386spart (725207) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314903)

I dropped IBM's like a bad habit after having witnessed three failures in six drives within a year, I will probably not buy hitachi either for at least a good while. It's irrational but they feel "tainted"!
The IBM's and two 1.2 GB seagates are the only disks I have personally known to actually fail. Naturally I stay away from seagate as well. Not that I carry a grudge or anything, I just stay clear of the fsckers. (No euphemism. Fsckers. Get it? heheh eh...*crickets*)
Western digital had a IDE compatibility issue with linux some time back (The details escape me, but I am pretty sure I'm not imagining it) so I overlook them as well. The only manufacturers I haven't experienced or heard anything bad about (yet, anyway, this being /. I imagine I will soon know why they suck and why it's SCO's fault) are Maxtor and Samsung.

Another Spin on this issue (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8314923)

Would have been the drives fixable.
Another thing which instantly comes to my mind is.
IBM sold the HD division, I think the GXP75 was the reason for this, or maybe the non handling of fixing the issue.
In the end for the next 2-3 years it would have been more profitable to sell of the division entirely than to make a recall an fix those dreaded beasts.

Well IBM got seriously burned for this and in the long term they would have been better off with a recall and fix than doing the marketing spin and selling the division off. But thats corporate logic at its best (if marketing cannot fix it, sell the jobs of the techies)

back to seagate I guess. (2, Interesting)

nblender (741424) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314926)

I mentally switched to IBM drives a couple of years ago so whenever I bought a server or configured one for a client to purchase, I spec'd IBM drives. Now I'm back to Seagate. A friend was pro-maxtor all the way. Out of 100 drives in various servers, he's had to replace about half of them. Most of them upwards of twice each. He's disgusted. Another one of my clients spec'd a RAID array out of 120G Maxtors. 2 out of 4 disks have already been replaced..

I can't believe no one is going after Maxtor.

I Have PROOF IBM Cuts Corners!! (0, Troll)

bfg9000 (726447) | more than 10 years ago | (#8314930)

This Dual G5 PowerMac of mine runs so fast, I know IBM has to be cutting corners someplace. I mean, it gets to the finish line before my Dell even gets out of the gate! CHEATERS!!!
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