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Sun's Simon Phipps Answers ESR On Java

timothy posted more than 10 years ago | from the lots-of-air-moving dept.

Java 707

comforteagle writes "Sun's Chief Technology Officer Simon Phipps has answered Eric Raymond's open letter calling on Sun to open source Java." In the quoted response, Phipps says (condensed) "I'd say this is 100 per cent rant... His simplistic accusations don't hold water... If this is the way that Open Source treats its friends, I'd hate to see how it treats its enemies... It's pretty difficult to respond to this. He's so out of touch."

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foresight (3, Insightful)

exekewtable (130076) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319081)

Shame they can't see the writing on the wall

Re:foresight (4, Funny)

Yoda2 (522522) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319089)

Shame I can't see the article - /.ed already!

Re:foresight (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319131)

Shame on you, Mr. Bush!

Re:foresight (3, Informative)

Gherald (682277) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319163)

Here's what I've gotten so far from doing a "view source" while the page is loading. Not sure if it's the whole article, but it's something:

Sun has offered a frank response to the open letter from Eric S, Raymond, President, Open Source Initiative, in which he called on Sun to make its Java platform Open Source and described the company's Open Source strategy as 'spotty' and 'confused'.

'I'd say this is 100 per cent rant,' Sun's Chief Technology Evangelist, Simon Phipps told us. 'His simplistic accusations don't hold water... If this is the way that Open Source treats its friends, I'd hate to see how it treats its enemies.'

Raymond's first line of attack was to dispute whether CEO Scott McNealy's claim that 'the open-source model is our friend,' has any substance when at the same time Sun is filling the coffers of Linux litigator SCO through licensing deals and still keeps Java under 'tight control'.

'It's pretty difficult to respond to this. He's so out of touch,' said Phipps. 'To even begin one must first address the error in his world view: He has taken quotes given by Scott McNealy to analysts and attacked them as if they were spoken to the Open Source community.

(I was a bit leary of running this story initially, but have been able to confirm that it is legitimate through sources at Java.net [java.net] - Ed.)

Re:foresight (4, Funny)

Losat (643653) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319238)

And people wonder why slashdot posters never read the article before posting. We try; we want to; but we kill the poor article host.

"Blogging" is for self-important wanna-be-writers (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319126)

I've had to find some answers recently about incompatibility between Legato Networker and Mac OS 10.3 and these weblogs I keep tripping over written by many of Mac's faithful are making me nauseous.

Technorati is lousy with these awful sites... these words and efforts need to stop being wasted in this tremendous circle-jerk and put to use for good.

Re:foresight (3, Interesting)

dnoyeb (547705) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319323)

"Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin."

P.S. The lameness filter aborted this biblical quote in its proper form :)

This is mine! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319084)

Fristsss posssts! Mine@!

I'm sorry for us. You failed it. (-1)

Fecal Troll Matter (445929) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319243)

Today is my birthday and you ruined it. Thanks.

I love Simon (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319085)

He's great on American Idol. I bet he really rips into ESR!

and the answer is.... (5, Funny)

twoslice (457793) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319087)

If this is the way that Open Source treats its friends, I'd hate to see how it treats its enemies... [sco.com]

Re:and the answer is.... (-1)

Znonymous Coward (615009) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319108)

Retardos, number one forever!

[/SpaceGhost]

Re:and the answer is.... (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319120)

How does the OSS community treat SCO? It rants and raves while SCO's stock price goes up. Meanwhile, it rants and raves at Sun while Sun's stock price goes down. Meanwhile it rants and raves at MS, whose stock price continues to go up.

Were I not aware of the problems with mistakenly assuming causation where none exists, I'd say it is better to be an enemy than a friend.

I am aware of that pitfall, though, so I will simply say that all the OSS community does is rant and rave - everything else is dependant on the entities' own actions and choices.

Re:and the answer is.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319158)

Correction to your statement. Should perhaps be:

how it treats its litigious bastards [sco.com] .

Re:and the answer is.... (2, Funny)

Short Circuit (52384) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319277)

No, that should be: "If this is the way Open Source treats its friends, I'd hate to see how it treats its litigious bastards [sco.com] .

But that doesn't sound quite right, does it?

I say yeah! (-1, Troll)

deinol (210478) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319091)

Languages should be open source, be it C, C++, Java, or C#. If they aren't, they don't seem like good languages to me!

Re:I say yeah! (4, Insightful)

Lacutis (100342) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319145)

*Languages* are free in the sense that it's pretty hard to program in a language that won't tell you about it's syntax, keywords or structure.

I think you meant *compiler* but even then, because gcc is open source and borlands free compiler isn't, does that mean C++ is a bad language? Does it mean gcc is better than bcc? Or does it mean that it doesn't make a difference?

I don't follow your logic there.

Re:I say yeah! (0, Redundant)

Delirium Tremens (214596) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319151)

What is the problem, really?
The Java VM and language specs are out there. Anyone is free to implement them and released their source as Open Source. So, _ w-h-a-t _ i-s _ t-h-e _ d-e-a-l ?

Re:I say yeah! (5, Insightful)

memmel2 (660484) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319273)

For J2SE part of the Spec is shared code so controlled by Sun. Also the spec is controlled by Sun and so are the test. They have not clearly stated that they would not attack a clean room effort. So in general your statement is not corrent. The JVM spec is open except for a patent held by Sun on what are called quick opcodes Sun does not say what they would do to someone who implemented them. So there are enough minefields in this to make creation of a open source java a careful endevour. This is why Gnu Classpath is following a strict clean room approach to development. Which does slow the process quite a bit.

Re:I say yeah! (2, Interesting)

Stradenko (160417) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319162)

Languages should be defined in an open and standard way. Let compilers and applications be proprietary. But keep in mind that proprietary extensions to the language ought to be shunned, as they will cause fragmentation.

Re:I say yeah! (5, Insightful)

shamino0 (551710) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319258)

Languages should be open source, be it C, C++, Java, or C#. If they aren't, they don't seem like good languages to me!

The language specification should be open. This should include the specification of conformance tests. Otherwise we end up with many dialects that are not completely interoperable.

On the other hand, I don't think matters either way if any particular language's implementation is open-sourced. You shouldn't need to see Sun's source code in order to write a fully-compliant Java compiler/interpreter/runtime. Just like you don't need to see AT&T's (or Microsoft's or Borland's or anyone else's) C-compiler sources in order to develop a compiler that fully complies with the ISO standard. Having those sources would make it easier to port the language to a new platform, but they should never be necessary. If they are necessary, then the language specification isn't specific enough.

Mind you, I would love to be able to see Sun's sources as much as the next guy, but I really fail to see how their choice to keep their code proprietary in any way lessens the value of the language itself.

What we need is... (5, Funny)

Stradenko (160417) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319092)

An open letter from RMS [stallman.org] to clarify the situation and convince Mr. Phipps that the free software community loves him and that the open source community does not accurately represent our opinions.

That's a joke, right? (0, Flamebait)

Chibi Merrow (226057) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319302)

Do you honestly think RMS would write something better than ESR on this matter? ESR just pointed out Java would get wide acceptance as an open source standard much like NFS where other Sun innovations have failed for being closed and proprietary. RMS would just point out how evil and wicked Sun is for distributing binaries without the source and not GPL'ing all their code.
I can't read Mr. Phipps' response currently, but I think he's the one out of touch on this issue after reading the well written and argued (along with politely worded) letter from ESR.

Bottom line: The Free Software community hates Sun like it hates all other developers who keep their code closed [fsf.org] . So if you're expecting a Sun Love-In from RMS, you'll be waiting a long time.

These Articles (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319097)

I used to like slashdot, now it just makes me angry.

Sun doing a good job? (5, Insightful)

spankalee (598232) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319098)

I used to want Sun to open source Java, but they've actually been a pretty good steward and I quite like what they're doing with it. The Java Community Process seems to be working.

ESR is primiadonna (3, Insightful)

bsDaemon (87307) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319099)

has he done anything actually /useful/ other than fetchmail? why is fetchmail his only example in all of his writings? and saying that CatB is responsible for the Netscape decision is only slightly more vailid than saying that "The Manifesto of the Communist Party" was responsible for the 1916 Easter Rising.
that said, "geeks with guns" is kind of cool. however, ESR is not cool. I piss on him and his "CatB"

Re:ESR is primiadonna (5, Insightful)

Captain Tenille (250795) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319235)

Sure he's done useful stuff, like the "Sex Tips for Geeks" (has anyone actually ever used those) and remaking the Jargon File to update the hacker image to fit himself.

OK, you're right. He's pretty useless. At least he likes Jaegermeister, I hear.

when was the last time ESR ued those? (-1, Flamebait)

bsDaemon (87307) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319275)

I can't imagine anyone having sex with that fat, scruffy, boozer outside of West Cork.

Re:ESR is primiadonna (4, Insightful)

SFEley (743605) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319263)

has he done anything actually /useful/ other than fetchmail?

Yes. He's one of those helpful fairies that most open source programmers don't really believe in, but who sometimes sneak into their workshops at night to finish cobbling their shoes. These mythical creatures are sometimes called "documenters."

Re:ESR is primiadonna (2, Informative)

EricWright (16803) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319313)

He wrote the original guidebook for nethack. Yes, it's true... freaked me out when I first saw it, but here's the header from doc/Guidebook.txt of the nethack-3.4.3 package available at www.nethack.org:

A Guide To The Mazes of Menace
(Guidebook for NetHack)

Eric S. Raymond
(Extensively edited and expanded for 3.4)

He's so out of touch (5, Funny)

slutdot (207042) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319101)

So is the website...

Re:He's so out of touch (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319170)

Here is the whole thing:

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/?http://www.pcpro.co.uk/n ew s/news_story.php?id=53646

I wouldnt mind... (1, Interesting)

arock99 (612650) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319106)

I wouldnt mind seeing Java Open Sourced, perhaps it would finally convince some of those nay-sayers to switch to Java. Speed an issue...? Not anymore. Memory an issue? Not since 1.5, took a little while to get there but any language goes through learning

Mono (3, Interesting)

jdtanner (741053) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319111)

I know Mono is quite a young language (if you exclude the work done on c#) but I think that Sun should be wary.

I moved from Java to Mono/c# recently and I don't think I'll be going back.

Don't know what anyone else thinks?

Re:Mono (1)

pr0c (604875) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319194)

Oh jeeeeez don't mention c# and mono in here! =P

I'll use c# over java as long as I possibly can as well. If there was only a good IDE for c# (mono) on linux... If java run as well as c# I'd use it though.

ESR Is a Moron (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319113)

At least Sun stood up and called a spade a spade.

ESR you love guns so much, why don't you perform oral sex on the barrel and let it "blow your mind"

Thanks in advance

Erect Horsecock

rings a bell. . . (5, Insightful)

jafac (1449) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319127)

ah, the old ad hominem attack.
Is that all they're teaching folks in MBA school anymore? Don't respond to valid arguments and criticism; instead, discredit your detractors by branding them as "out of touch" or "communist" or a "tree hugger".

I find it incredibly discouraging to know that everything I need to know about running a global billion dollar software company, I learned on the playground in kindergarten.

MOD PARENT IN SOME DIRECTION (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319169)

you are an out-of-touch communist tree-hugger.

Re:rings a bell. . . (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319183)

Only an out of touch commie hippy would respond as you did. Also, only an out of touch anal retentive commie hippy still uses a four digit /. uid for anything besides trolling.

You are just as guilty (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319228)

as you have not read the article (since it was instantly slashdotted) your entire opinion is based around a few snippets of the response instead of the entire response.

Re:rings a bell. . . (4, Interesting)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319234)

ah, the old ad hominem attack.
Is that all they're teaching folks in MBA school anymore? Don't respond to valid arguments and criticism; instead, discredit your detractors by branding them as "out of touch" or "communist" or a "tree hugger".


It's actually a good response in situations where any response would be the wrong one. Sun could try to explain their reasoning, tell everyone about the SCSL, show all the contributions to Open Source they've made, and they'd still get skewered. At least this way, they have a fighting chance. Quite a few people agree with Sun's position and disagree with ESR. By using the ad hominem response, they're bolstering the opinions of those people and making their voices louder. Any other tack would have made their supporter's voices that much quieter.

Re:rings a bell. . . (5, Insightful)

schon (31600) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319327)

It's actually a good response in situations where any response would be the wrong one.

No, at most, he should have simply said "we have a fundamental disagreement in our philosophies" and left it at that.

Insulting people who criticize you is never a "good" response.

Re:rings a bell. . . (5, Funny)

Kenja (541830) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319255)

"Is that all they're teaching folks in MBA school anymore? Don't respond to valid arguments and criticism; instead, discredit your detractors by branding them as "out of touch" or "communist" or a "tree hugger"."

I'd explain it to you, but there's no way an out of touch communist tree hugger such as yourself would understand.

Re:rings a bell. . . (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319266)

Well, as they also say in kindergarten, "he started it". Did you read ESR's letter? Full of the sophomoric bluster and name-calling that typifies his writing. "Sun is clueless", "Sun lost the war", blah blah blah. I for one am glad someone finally stood up to him with more than the usual standard corporate-PR blandishments.

Re:rings a bell. . . (1)

RancidBeef (412397) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319286)

Yeah, I was wondering if he was responding to the same ESR letter I read. Whether he agrees with ESR's argument or not, I didn't see anything (in ESR's letter) I'd classify as a "rant". And what was all that about SCO? There was nothing in ESR's open letter about that that I saw.

Wow. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319316)

An ad hominem criticizing an ad hominem. RTFA, he expounds on the comment immediately after making it.

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=97352&cid=83 19 192

You are out of touch, and I say that because I dislike you, not because you didn't even read the comment in context and proceeded to attack McNealy anyways.

Re:rings a bell. . . (3, Insightful)

Mr. Piddle (567882) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319325)


Fallacy: You are assuming that ESR actually wrote valid arguments and criticism.

Not representative (4, Insightful)

AsparagusChallenge (611475) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319130)

If this is the way that Open Source treats its friends...

For the eleventh time: neither Eric nor any other single institution represents Open Source! This is the way Eric S. Raymond treats people, nothing more, nothing less.

Re:Not representative (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319203)

True enough, but then why do so many people treat him like he does?

Frankly, there have been time where I'd like to have decked him for his (occasional) assinine behavior.

Re:Not representative (5, Insightful)

zapp (201236) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319236)

Funny, this seems to be one of those double standards. People like ESR and Linus are praised and recognized as the fathers of OSS, heros among their kind, but as soon as they say something offensive you disown them.

In life, whether personal, corporate, OSS, whatever, when you associate yourself with an organization, your actions reflect that organization to some degree. If ESR had said "these comments are solely my own and do not represent any organization I take part in", I could agree.

STFU.

Re:Not representative (1)

squiggleslash (241428) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319247)

Yeah, Simon should just be glad that ESR didn't shoot him!

Re:Not representative (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319265)

ESR is the person more or less responsible for the trademarking of the term "Open Source" [catb.org] and has been, in a confusing manner, something of a steward for a movement specifically trying to squat on that name and present itself as a contrast to "Free Software". The fact that Mr. Phipps capitalizes "Open Source" here implies that he is not referring to the open source community, but referring specifically to OSI, ESR, and ESR's followers in the "Open Source" movement.

ESR is of course merely a leader in "Open Source"/OSI, and does not speak for all. However the whole issue is messy enough it is difficult to blame Mr. Phipps for being confused.

Friends?! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319134)

I have news for you: as long as Java is not free, you are not our friends.

Starting Java... (5, Funny)

sulli (195030) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319136)

Applet Loading...

Applet Loading...

Applet Loading...

Applet Loading...

"I'd say this is 100 per cent rant... His simplistic accusations don't hold water... If this is the way that Open Source treats its

Warning:Simon Phipps has made an illegal operation. The application will be terminated.

ESR (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319143)

I do the club scene a lot, some say I am a good dancer. I enjoy having a few drinks, usually ale or mead, and I have been known to cause a scene now and then...

Eric paused, breathing heavily. He'd never done this before and he wanted to make sure all of his best qualities were included in this email.

I am a geek, to be frank, and I enjoy hacking UNIX and maintaining Open Source programs such as Felchmale^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HFetchmail and a bevy of FAQs regarding 386 sound internals and role-playing games. I've been doing this for 15 years though I've never held a job in my life.

Eric wondered if this woman he had found on match.com would be impressed with his talents. He decided to put more detail into the message.

I recently drove 24 hours straight, with but two stops for gasoline, from Pennsylvania to Kansas City in an effort to destroy my two arch-nemeses. I would have succeeded except that I blew a head gasket as I was about to shoot one of them from my moving car on Route 69. I am an excellent shot and love guns in general.

ESR pondered for a moment, wringing out his soaked handkerchief, and continued with his typing.

So what languages do you know? I fancy myself quite an accomplished amateur linguist and know Anglo-Saxon and Old Icelandic inside and out. I often compose little riddles in them for fun and mental exercise. In fact, I'll include one for you now!

Chewing on his tongue and squinting, Eric pushed his mind into overdrive and produced a beauty of a riddle on the spot:

Windeth I towarde the skye
I haveth eye but blinde am I

Pleased with his linguistic talents, undoubtedly matched by no one, Eric then asked his potential love-conquest:

Can you guess the answer to that? In case you can not, the correct answer is "my erect penis." I hope you enjoyed that; I do this sort of thing all the time.

Eric exhaled slowly and rubbed his belly. It was growling and no doubt wanted its nightly bottle of Jgermeister. He decided to finish up the email in anticipation of the coming alcoholic stupor.

Well I don't want to make this email too long-- I have a lot of responsibilities in real life to deal with. My role-playing group is coming over and we are spending the next week holed up in the forest near my home in character playing out a possible scenario from Beowulf. I need to get dressed up and I can not find my bear-claw mittens.

Eric wondered how to wrap up the email, something that would hook the lady on him and make her want more...

I hope we can meet and have sex. Despite my cerebral palsy, I am a monster in the sack! Maybe you'll get to see for yourself, LOLOLOL! ;-)
Love,
Eric S. Raymond

Re:ESR (1, Offtopic)

halivar (535827) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319204)

I wish there were only some way to mod (-1, Funny).

Re:ESR (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319246)

I browse with a +6 Flamebait modifier - that usually does the trick.

Re:ESR (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319272)

Well, it's worth the karma hit for me... I just modded him +1 Funny.

Re:ESR (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319251)

Haha, that's great. LOLOLOL

$500 million in bad publicity for Sun (1, Insightful)

Futurepower(R) (558542) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319147)


Sun's mismanagement of Java is worth about $500 million in bad publicity for Sun, I'm guessing. Failing to pursue excellence with Java makes the entire of Sun seem mediocre. Whoever in Sun is failing to support Java cannot possibly be making a decision for Sun that makes economic sense.

Re:$500 million in bad publicity for Sun (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319262)

Informative??? this is just random babbling. there are no facts involved in any of these statements...

Re:$500 million in bad publicity for Sun (0, Offtopic)

That's Unpossible! (722232) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319285)

Sun's mismanagement of Java is worth about $500 million in bad publicity for Sun, I'm guessing.

Everybody stand back -- Futurepower(R) has spoken... directly out of his ass.

Honestly, who moderated that crap up?

If this is the way... (4, Insightful)

donnz (135658) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319153)

So should the world judge all proprietary software vendors by SCOs activities - that position seems a rather simplistic rant and doesn't hold water.

If we are supposed to differentiate bewteen SCO and SUN (hard to do with names that share such commonality) can he not do us the favour of tarring a whole community with one broad brush.

ESR is overrated (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319156)

Why exactly does this man think he's the Voice of the open source movement? I'm an active contributor to three projects, and he doesn't have the respect of any of my friends and fellow coders from those projects - and his book is based on a flawed assumption and is far from enlightening (no, they did not build cathedrals that way).

I call bluff (4, Insightful)

FreemanPatrickHenry (317847) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319157)

If this is the way that Open Source treats its friends, I'd hate to see how it treats its enemies..

Since when is Sun a friend of open source? They may be more "open sourcey" than, say, Microsoft, but I wouldn't call them friends. Maybe temporary allies.

It's like IBM. I'm glad they're running pro-Linux ads. It's helpful. It's nice to see corporate support. But remember when IBM was the "bad guy?"

My question is: what is a "friend" of open source? The GNU project is a friend of open source. Eric Raymond is a friend of open source (if an embarrassing one at times like these). Until I see more proof, I'm hesitant to call Sun any more a friend of Open Source than Microsoft a friend of IBM in the 80s.

Bottom line: Raymond was off the cuff and out of line. He was (and rightly so) called for it. But I'll wait until I see more "friendship" from Sun before I jump ship.

(And let the karma burn begin.)

Re:I call bluff (1)

ultrabot (200914) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319276)

Since when is Sun a friend of open source?

Indeed. What kind of friend sponsors a lawsuit against you in an attempt to hurt you, and still expects you to be his friend?

Re:I call bluff (5, Informative)

OYAHHH (322809) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319278)

Ever,

Heard of OpenOffice/StarOffice? If you haven't I suggest you look it up. You might change you opinion of Sun's contributions to open-source software.

Re:I call bluff (1)

squiggleslash (241428) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319291)

Since when is Sun a friend of open source?
Since they released NIS/Yellow Pages, NFS, and OpenOffice.org, at a guess...

Re:I call bluff (2, Informative)

WilsonSD (159419) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319298)

> Since when is Sun a friend of open source?

OpenOffice, NetBeans, Jini, JXTA, this list goes on....

Already slashdotted.... (-1, Offtopic)

aelfric35 (711236) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319166)

And only 12-ish comments so far. Sigh...

Re:Already slashdotted.... (2, Funny)

dinog (582015) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319232)

You're right, this is a major problem. Certainly we can't have a normal slashdot discussion if people actually read the article first.

Dean G.

Re:Already slashdotted.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319271)

Who says slashdotters dont RTFA?

I have no issues with Sun's management of JAVA (1)

GrassyKnowl (547325) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319167)

I like the way Java is being managed by Sun and I have no issues with how Sun is managing the development of their Java IP.

People who gripe about Java and Sun's management of the language need to get a life.

Re:I have no issues with Sun's management of JAVA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319283)

Yeah? well what about people who gripe about people who gripe about Java?

ESR is a loon (-1, Offtopic)

mbbac (568880) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319175)

It's pretty hard to take a guy that dresses up as Obi-Wan seriously.

So where's the problem, Phipps? (1, Flamebait)

dacarr (562277) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319180)

The engine is already overbloated and lacks optimization. I've seen it take down a 3 GHz machine with 512 MB RAM just by running simple scripts. If this is what closed source gets us, I sure as hell don't want it.

Re:So where's the problem, Phipps? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319304)

So you can write a bad program in any language...

Eric Raymond's magazine (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319182)

ESR studied the document in his hand with interest. His brow, furrowed into numerous crap lines, was covered by his sweaty red forlock. His hands shook. He mouthed the words "hoooh boy" silently as he began a steady hyperventilation. Finally, after waiting for weeks and weeks, he had what he'd gone to sleep thinking about every night: the first ossue of SCAT!, the magazine for poop fanatics everywhere, had fianlly hit the stands. Eric's heart burst with pride, as he had taken the last of his money made when VA Linux^H^H^H^H^HSoftware had gone public and invested in this private project of the Slashdot staff.

Running quickly to the back bedroom of his one-story shanty (and being careful not to trip on the heavy 386 PC cases or the myriad of cables, cords, dongles, and wires running in various directions across his dirt floor), Eric slammed the door and laid stomach-down on the bed. He opened to the boilerplate and read his pal's names with delights, kicking his feet back and forth against each other. He couldn't believe his dream had come true! But just as he was about to flip to the pictorial section (to examine how the GIMP performed at the cropping and scaling, of course) the phone rang. It was Jon Katz.

"ESR, you sunnuvvabitch! Where the Hell is my story? You promised me you'd publish my story in your God-damned worthless shit-fag mag! You doulbe-crossing--"

ESR interrupted Katz. "Whoa, whoa, I don't know what you're talking about. We agreed that I'd pick an article and have it be the cover story. I never said it would be yours. It just so happens the bois at Slashdot picked mine instead!"

With a strangling, gurgling scream from Katz, ESR hung up the phone and sighed. He scratched his beer belly and thirsted for Jgermeister. Why did people always harass him? From RMS calling and reminding Eric that he was not a good a programmer as he, or Larry Augustin calling emailing death threats regarding petty cash theft from VA's offices after Eric's visits, or the trolls on Slashdot writing about his and his friends' personal lives, the Jger was his only release. Perhaps after a few fifths of it he'd be calm enough again to dive back into his magazine.

Waking up hours later, ESR realized he'd drank too much (again) and had slept away... Well, what had he slept away? He couldn't even remember what time it was when he'd woken up or fallen asleep last. Between the early Winter Pennsylvania nights and his "hacker's" schedule it was so hard to keep track of what time of day, week, or month it was he might as well have been living in a cave. He remembered when he was, though, and thought warmly of his shanty-- built by hand from 55 gallon drums harvested from his local landfill. Over the drums ESR had filled clay, mixed from a nearby creek, and painted it brown to make it look like a log cabin. How proud he was indeed! Wouldn't you be?

ESR picked up the SCAT! magazine, unzipped his pants, and sat at his kitchen table-- humming with a cluster of 386s running Linux-- and enjoyed the rest of his freetime the way God intended: masturbating furiously to pictures of pale, skinny young men eating turds and smearing shit all over each other.

GNU/RMS (2, Funny)

FreakyGeeky (23009) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319184)

With those kinds of comments, I thought he was talking about GNU/RMS.

I'm confused (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319186)

Aren't there already open source compilers and runtimes for Java (blackdown, etc)? What was it ESR wanted?

Article Text (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319192)

Sun fires back over Open Source Java accusations
[PC Pro] 15:13

Sun has offered a frank response to the open letter from Eric S, Raymond, President, Open Source Initiative, in which he called on Sun to make its Java platform Open Source and described the company's Open Source strategy as 'spotty' and 'confused'.

'I'd say this is 100 per cent rant,' Sun's Chief Technology Evangelist, Simon Phipps told us. 'His simplistic accusations don't hold water... If this is the way that Open Source treats its friends, I'd hate to see how it treats its enemies.'

Raymond's first line of attack was to dispute whether CEO Scott McNealy's claim that 'the open-source model is our friend,' has any substance when at the same time Sun is filling the coffers of Linux litigator SCO through licensing deals and still keeps Java under 'tight control'.

'It's pretty difficult to respond to this. He's so out of touch,' said Phipps. 'To even begin one must first address the error in his world view: He has taken quotes given by Scott McNealy to analysts and attacked them as if they were spoken to the Open Source community.

'In fact, Sun has contributed more to Open Source than anybody else bar Berkeley [University of California]. We understand Open Source better than anyone else. IBM is just wrapping itself in the flag, but it still behaves like an old-fashioned systems company. Sun is actually taking the risks. [Raymond] isn't well informed and is ignoring most of the stuff that Sun is doing. He completely ignores things like the Java Desktop, the Java Enterprise System running on Linux in its new servers. He's very selective about what he wants to write about.

For the record, Raymond wrote: 'Sun's insistence on continuing tight control of the Java code has damaged Sun's long-term interests by throttling acceptance of the language in the open-source community, ceding the field (and probably the future) to scripting-language competitors like Python and Perl.'

Phipps responded that Java is not a scripting language, so it is meaningless to make such a comparison.

Raymond also wrote in his open letter: 'Sun's terms are so restrictive that Linux distributions cannot even include Java binaries for use as a browser plugin, let alone as a standalone development tool.' But Phipps responds that SUSE has managed to do so without any problems.

Raymond also says that Sun faces the stark choice of control or ubiquity for Java. Phipps said: 'Java is already everywhere.'

And as for control, Phipps maintains: 'Sun has no more control over Java than anyone else in the Java Community Process'. Besides, he said that since version 2.5 of the Java Development Process that was ratified some 18 months ago it has been possible for anyone to create an implementation of Java that complies with the Open Source requirements. And that includes Java 1.5 which will be out 'really soon' [an alpha was released two weeks ago].

'We don't have an axe to grind with Eric, and we don't have any hostility to what he is supporting. But I don't believe there are any barriers to making Java Open Source,' he said.

'The question he should really be asking is why has no-one else offered to create an Open Source version of Java. Maybe because it's on the 'too hard' list. Sun would support an Open Source version of Java, but it need a lot of money and time to do so. You can't just flick a switch. Right now Sun has higher priorities in the form of Java 1.5,' he said.

Questions of who makes Java Open Source aside, there is a strong demand that it be implemented. When we interviewed Richard Stallman, founder of the Free Software Foundation, last month we asked what the most pressing needs are for the GNU operating system (of which Linux is the kernel), he said: 'We need a free complete Java platform.'

Matt Whipp

He's so out of touch. (3, Funny)

Trigun (685027) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319193)

And in other news, Simon Phillips wins the "Understatement of the year" award, also known as the "GNU/Understatement of the year" award

ESR Rant number..(anyone is counting them?) (4, Insightful)

Rotten (8785) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319212)

Ok, this time Sun is Ev!L because is not open sourcing a product they own..

Dude, asking a little more is good, asking too much is instantly very bad... companies who like the open source model would easily scare if a preacher starts asking them to open source every product they own.

I still don't see the point of a open source java...sorry, you can write open source code for it...that's good for me.

From the horses mouth (5, Interesting)

clandaith (187570) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319213)

Jonathan Schwartz came to the Utah Java Users Group [ujug.org] in January (We got him out here with free tickets to the Sundance Film Festival.). He asked if people felt that Java should be open sourced. About half the audience raised their hands, myself included.

He said that it wouldn't happen because Sun didn't want to see multiple versions of Java out there. If MS went and changed some things in Sun's Java and then started to bundle their version of Java with Windows, who knows what will happen.

We will start to see different versions of Java. People will start to think that the MS version of Java is the actual "real" Java and get mad when someone writes a Java program using Sun's version of Java.

Then, MS will be able to start to dictate what goes in Java, or they will just stop following Sun's vison of Java and go on their own merry way.

He gave more reasons and it convinced me that it really wasn't that great of an idea to open source Java.

Rant? (3, Interesting)

nonmaskable (452595) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319216)

Notice how Phillips takes the cheap shot ("rant") in order to play to ESR's current unpopularity with the slashdot crowd? He doesn't try to refute the issues ESR raises.

I guess it's hard to be coherent when your company doesn't really know where it stands wrt open source.

Biggest worry for OpenSource (2)

superpulpsicle (533373) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319218)

I think programmers who have truely contributed to open source should be the only ones with real saying about the direction of open source.

What really really worries me is just the number of non technical people pushing this thing around... executives, lawyers, managment, marketers... this list goes on.

Re:Biggest worry for OpenSource (1)

Mysticalfruit (533341) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319330)

You forgot a big group... Slashdotters...

time for a change (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319220)

We, of the linux community, can no longer tolerate the scourge that is Eric S. Raymond. in the text that follows, I shall show that ESR is NOT the innocent open source advocate everyone believes him to be. He is, in fact, a German conspirator in the petroleum industry.

Mr. Raymond is a complex personality, as are many of today's wealthy open-source advocates. Most people are not willing to look beyond his open-source writings and dig deeper to find the truth. I WAS willing.

Mr. Raymond's firearms advocacy is well-known. What is NOT well-known is where this intense love of firearms originated. After scouring several records in libraries all over the nation, I tracked down Mr. Raymond's father... Josef Raymond.

Josef Schlecter was an anti-Nazi activist in World War II Germany. Fearful of Nazi persecution, Mr. Schlecter had no choice but to design extremely sophisticated weaponry for the German army. He and his business partner, Dieter van Woehausen made a very comfortable living with their arms factory.

Everything went smoothly for several years, until Mr. van Woehausen was discovered in a compromising position with a young Hitler-youth, who shall remain nameless due to his being a minor at the time. Young Mr. Schlecter watched in horror as the brown shirts cut his friend and business partner to pieces with machetes. To add insult to injury, Mr. van Woehausen's heart, having been left exposed by the mutilation, was abducted by a starving dog.

Severely traumatized, and fearful for his family's safety, Mr. Schlecter gathered his wife Eva, his young son Erik and daughter Heidi and left for America. To avoid persecution by suspicious FBI agents, Mr. Schlecter adopted the Americanized version of his name: Raymond. He also changed the names of his children to Eric and Janet.

Mr. Raymond made a good life for himself and his family in his new homeland. He built a formidable empire out of his full-service gas station chain... an industry increasingly under the control of German immigrants. Young Eric, however, was embittered and longing for his homeland.

Several years later, Mr. Raymond passed away from consumption. While sorting through his deceased father's belongings, young Eric came across several firearms manufactured in his father's old factory. Eric packed his father's weapons in a duffel bag and left for Germany to study the ways of the great German military leaders.

After months of intensive combat training and years of meditation in the mountains of Germany, Eric Raymond returned to America to reclaim his father's vast petroleum empire. His strong-arm tactics and cunning ruthlessness were the envy of even the most powerful mob-bosses.

A few years ago, Mr. Raymond received word that he was about to be investigated by the FBI. where did he get this inside information? From his sister, Janet... Janet Reno. Mr. Raymond turned control of the petroleum empire over to his eldest son, Fredo, and disappeared for several months.

The next we heard of Mr. Raymond was his infamous, "The Cathedral and the Bazaar." Mr. Raymond had not forseen a small problem, however. The FBI did, in fact, continue its investigation of Mr. Raymond. But not Mr. Eric Raymond.... Mr. Fredo Raymond. Mr. Fredo Raymond was imprisoned for conspiring to abduct and sexually assault a hot young actress... Natalie Portman. Eric Raymond regained control of his petroleum empire.

A sordid tale, I know. But think... stocks of linux-related companies have been plummeting... gas prices are increasing... coincidence? I think not.

Sun on IBM (5, Funny)

Aardpig (622459) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319221)

IBM is just wrapping itself in the flag, but it still behaves like an old-fashioned systems company. Sun is actually taking the risks

Of course, it all suddenly becomes clear! Sun are taking all the risks, by investing so much time and effort in Linux development. That's why SCO are suing them, rather than those Johnny-come-latelys at IBM.

Wait a moment....

Build your Own Open Source Java (5, Insightful)

gral (697468) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319225)

What is the problem? There is already implementations of Java that are OpenSource. All the specs are open, and allow for this.

Just because Sun doesn't want to open up their code itself doesn't mean that Java can't be open source.

Mono/C# are interesting, but I want to see C# in a couple years when Microsoft is looking for more ways to make money. All it will take is a little twist and Mono/C# will be a different implementation of C# than MS version. At that point, which one would be "Correct".

Microsoft tried this with Java. They failed because Java is held by Sun. Multiple OS's are what Sun wants for Java. They could have made a Java that ONLY worked on Solaris, but they didn't.

Again, I ask, what is the problem?

P.S. I am not a Sun Employee, I am an Open Source volunteer for OpenOffice.org.

Friends of Open Source?!?!?!?!!? (0, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319227)

Very interesting for them to say that when they are the same fuck tards financing SCO.

We haven't forgotten, Simon. [newsfactor.com]

ESR IS A DISGRACE (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319240)

ESR [tuxedo.org] has given us a compelling essay [tuxedo.org] on the benefits of communal non-property. He has enriched our lives with a collection of stirring poetry [tuxedo.org] . He has left an electronic legacy of just how gruesome the human form can get [google.com] . And he has given every underdog geek [lugos.si] hope with an inspiring account [slashdot.org] of his meteoric rise to unheard of riches.

But none of these compares to his Sex Tips for Geeks [tuxedo.org] . After all, if these tips can get ESR [auug.org.au] into some hottie's [spertus.com] pants, then any disgusting slob [saturnus.com] can get laid!

Seriously, though, how could ESR have developed these valuable mating tips? Nobody can make me believe that even if he offered all of his newfound wealth to the most hard-up crack-whore on the streets of New York he could get his stinger wet. My Philosophy professor always said, "you cannot invoke magic or God and expect to win an argument in this class." I am therefore left to reach only one possible conclusion. What follows is the only possible explanation for ESR's Sex Tips for Geeks [tuxedo.org] .

The room was dark and the night was cold as the rain pelted against the window. Eric paid no attention, though, absorbed as he was in the warm glow of his computer monitor. A raspy voice grated out of the speakers situated on either side of his monitor, "you've got mail!"

It was his mother's voice, which he had recorded to use with the perl AOL interface he had been working on for the past 10 years. Eric smiled and wiped the sweat condensing in his palm on his thin swatch of hair, only to replace the sweat with the grease oozing from his scalp. His hands shaking, Eric simultaneously pressed the ctrl, alt, shift, F1 and page down keys to retrive the new mail message. He read the message allowed, his voice quivering with excitement.

"hi! i will meet with u on chat 7pm tonite! c u then, xoxoxoxo suzee."

Eric expunged a bulb of gas from his spastic bowel as he checked his watch. 6:57 pm. His shaking grew more extreme, more uncontrollable. He could barely press the key sequence alt, space, F10, F3, tab, scroll-lock, page-up and end to bring up his open-source AOL chat client. Eric was barely able to situate his notebook and ink his quil before the chat client began to load. Eight minutes later, the client was ready to go.

"hi eric," came the message.

Eagerly, Eric replied, "hi, suzee! how r u tonite?"

"fine, thanks. u r late! i wuz worried!"

Eric scribbled in his notebook, "women like promptness."

"i am sorry :( what did u do today?"

"it's ok..."

"Politeness goes a long way," he wrote.

"... i got in trouble in school becuz i hit this guy becuz he kept pulling my hair :("

"No hair-pulling," he noted.

"so. what grade r u in?" Suzee asked.

Eric blushed. The large beads of sweat began to roll down his face to fall on his keyboard. He wiped his forhead with his hand and picked up more grease from his thin red hair. Shaking, he replied to Suzee, "i am not in school n e more."

"that is kool! what do u do then?"

"Girls like men who are no longer in school," He scribbled, before replying.

"i write about my newfound riches and how open-source is a superior method of software development."

There was a long pause. Eric's leg began to shake nervously. After a few minutes of nervous waiting, a long paragraph burst onto the screen.

"open-source is NOT a superior form of software development. The open-source model does not protect the user's rights the way the FREE SOFTWARE model does. Free software ensures that a user will have the right to modify his software and guarantees that the user will have full access to all source code. Open-source is nothing more than thinly-disguised corporate tool which only hints at the beauty of the socialist model."

Eric was shocked. Such thoughts from a young girl. He quickly scribbled in his notebook, "girls prefer FREE software to OPEN-SOURCE software." Eric was beside himself due to this shocking comment. He decided he should convince this youngster that open-source was the one true way.

"hang on a sec. i need to load up vi to get sum info to send u."

"VI?? You fucking idiot! Do you know how much time I spent on emacs... errr... ummmm... I mean... My brother told me that emacs does EVERYTHING. You could chat with me, load your info AND microwave the squirel you shot last night. Only morons and capitalists use vi."

Eric stared at the screen, his mouth wide open, a stream of drool dribbling onto his keyboard. He realized his pants were suddenly getting tight around the crotch.

"RMS??"

"Yes."

"Meet me at the super-8 motel in one hour?"

"I'll bring the Crisco!"

ESR leapt from his chair. He grabbed his keys from the desk and turned to rush from the room. He paused and returned to his desk to scribble in his notebook, "Fat disgusting free-software zealots are hotter than women!"

ESR lunged from the room, grabbing a fire-place poker and can of chocolate syrup on his way out the door.

Link to Original Article - not yet /.ed (3, Informative)

cbowland (205263) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319242)

[pcpro.co.uk]
Sun fires back over Open Source Java accusations

Who cares about Java (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319245)

...until they fscking FREEZE the language, like they did in 1983 with ANSI-C. I haven't got any compatibility problem with C since then. On the other hand, the Java compiler keeps telling me that my old code is "deprecated". Get done with tweaking the goddamn language already, it's like admitting that you got it wrong for 8 years straight.

I agree...ESR's letter was a rant..and rude too (4, Insightful)

GillBates0 (664202) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319267)

Haven't had a chance to read the response, but I definetly agree with the quotes in the summary. ESR's letter is no way to write to *anybody*, and this is the CEO of Sun you're talking about...not Daryll or somebody from SCO.

The following quotes of his just make him sound unprofessional and mannerless more than anything else:

But the casual equation between "open source" and "zero revenue" suggests that on another level you don't really know what you're talking about.

This was totally uncalled for, I can think of a million better ways to phrase it.



Matters aren't helped by the fact that Sun appears, with Microsoft, to be one of the two companies doing most to stuff SCO's war chest for its attack on Linux.

I don't see any concrete proof that Sun is *indeed* behind the fiaSCO. You don't go about making false/unfounded accusations against people, just because you read it on Slashdot.

Yeah biyatch (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319269)

ESR is a blow-hard and Sun called him on it. Way to not back down to the idealogues.

I find is incredibly ironic that OSS zealots ask for everything to be free, hence destroying the software industry.

Uh huh. (5, Funny)

Minwee (522556) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319307)

'In fact, Sun has contributed more to Open Source than anybody else bar Berkeley.'

I think he's right there. The high performance and ease of use of Sun's C Compiler did more to promote GCC than anything those GNU folks ever did. Their tireless efforts to provide an unusable toolkit and utilities throughout the lifecycle of SunOS and Solaris only proves their support for open source alternatives.

Eric Raymond's comment on Linuxshow (1)

bstadil (7110) | more than 10 years ago | (#8319309)

Eric was on TheLinuxshow [thelinuxshow.com] last night where his letter to Sun was discussed. (You can hear the show here [thelinuxshow.com] )

The point of the letter was a follow-up to Sun's comment that they were a "friend of Opensource". There is no metric for what it takes to be a Friend and Eric wanted to put a stake in the ground for what this would entail.

The OpenSource / Torvalds creed of "Show me".

Please note that there is no accusations in Eric's letter. It would have been easy to include the SCO/ Sun tie but he refrained from doing so.

The Open Source Communities Response: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319314)

Eric Raymond sees the world through rose colored glasses. Please disregard him.

-- Someone that actually contributes code

ESR IMPREGNATED! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8319315)

APOCALYPSE

A revised history of the world, in which pollution (both industrial and sentient), bad manners and sea water are conquered.

Part I: In The Beginning

ESR wiped the sweat from his forehead as the fax machine spewed out page after page of complex instruction. It reminded him of sitting on the toilet, burning his penis with the ash of his cigarette as a jet of bile was violently purged from his scorching anus. the horrid memory forced more sweat through his choking pores. ESR wiped the sweat onto his white "Baby Smurf" t-shirt, leaving an impression of his sour, pudgy face.

A long ash formed on ESR's cigarette as he watched the fax machine intently. He jerked spasmodically as the current page neared completion. The cigarette ash broke apart and flurried to the floor. ESR took the page from the fax machine and placed it atop the large stack of papers that had already sputtered through the chattering device. Anxiously, he moved his head over the machine to read the LCD readout.

"4096 pages received OK."

The historic volume was complete.

Part II: Good Things Come To Those Who Wait

In any other story, some very odd behavior on the part of our hero would draw some attention from somewhere. But ESR's peculiar nature was like a blanket instilling invisibility unto its wearer. Nobody paid any attention to his curious ways. It was normal for him to lock himself in his bedroom for months on end. His mother and father never bothered to check on him. They had learned their lesson the day they walked in on him with the rubber chicken and Little Debbie snack cakes.

And so, ESR scavenged the neighborhood at will. Taking whatever crusty metal junk and half-rotten fruit he could scrape from the bottom of the Quick Trip trash barrel. Diligently, he followed the instructions that had been handed to him from above, as if he were Moses on Mt. Sinai. "They should rename me "Dilinger" he thought to himself, as he scratched at a mite on his leg.

Three years of isolation working on the "Dilinger Project" left ESR with hair down to his buttocks. Three years of feasting on stale Little Debbie snack cakes left him with a stomach down to his knees. Three years of molesting a rubber chicken had left him hungry for the salty goodness of a woman's warm nectar.

ESR's historic journey was only just beginning.

Part III: Brotherly Love

ESR stood in the ten square feet of metal he had constructed. The room had an interior glow that seemed to emanate from everywhere. ESR turned about trying to figure out what to do with this object he had constructed. After days of referring to the instructions, after weeks of contemplating the structures around him, ESR noticed a large red button mounted on the wall in front of him. It's large, flashing red letters, "Press Me" triggered something in his mind. He pressed the button.

ESR steadied himself against the wall as the craft began to shake violently. Slowly, he could feel himself being pulled toward the floor. The craft was accelerating upward. After a few moments, the craft steadied and ESR was able to walk about.

A shimmering glow appeared against the wall opposite ESR. He watched with a smile of knowing. The shimmering slowly took form and solidified. ESR wiped a tear from his cheek in anticipation. His mind soared to new heights. He knew his life-mate was arriving.

Before the humanoid form had fully solidified, ESR lunged toward it. His arms opened wide in acceptance. He brought his hands together just as the form fully materialized. ESR puckered his lips and planted an enormous kiss on RMS's white, sweating cheek.

The saltiness of the sweat absorbed into ESR's tongue, sending signals of revolt to his reeling mind. ESR opened his eyes and beheld the gruesome, twisted form of RMS in front of him. He backed against the wall, his hands grasping for something, perhaps an anchor to reality. For this naked, nightmarish beast could only be a figment of his overworked mind.

"Are you real?" ESR gasped.

"Let's be careful about our terms. What do you mean by the term 'real' in this particular context," RMS replied, as he unfolded the pair of fuzzy yellow mascot-chicken feet he held.

ESR turned his back to RMS as reality grabbed him by the throat and squeezed the hope from him. He dropped to his knees, pleading to the god that had put him in this horrid realm, "why hath thou forsaken me?!" ESR put his head down to the floor and covered it with his hands. He cried like a baby with a dirty diaper and an empty stomach.

RMS examined ESR's plump buttocks, stuck high in the air like a female house cat in heat. He slipped on his fuzzy yellow chicken feet and licked his lips with great anticipation as he shuffled toward the beckoning ass.

"Did you ever notice how 'jellicle' rhymes with 'testicle'" RMS said, as he produced his pan-flute.

Part IV: Stasis

For three hundred years they were frozen in a single instant. Their awareness deprived of all sensory perception, they realized the singularity of pure being, stripped of the window-dressings of experience. Melded together in a fleeting moment of ecstacy.

Part V: Homecoming Beach Party

ESR sat against the wall almost comforted by RMS's pan-flute. He quivered with disgust as he took another drag off his cigarette. His buttocks tightened in revolt to the pillaging it had received. RMS's song changed abruptly from an old Irish folk song to, "Lullaby, Lullaby..."

ESR bent over reflexively and vomited. RMS was concerned. He scooted over next to ESR, whose fat breasts were exposed through a torn shirt. RMS noticed the breasts and touched one tenderly with his hand.

"No," ESR commanded, "they're tender for some reason."

Part VI: Post Apocalypse

ESR and RMS embraced each other as the craft began to shake once again. They looked at each other nervously, not knowing what they would find upon leaving the craft. A loud thud shook their very thoughts and the craft disintegrated around them.

ESR and RMS stood, horrified by the smoldering remains of the civilization they had once ignored.

"The Earth has been ravaged by nuclear war!" ESR gasped.

"Let's be careful about our terms here," RMS began, as he looked at ESRs bulging stomach and reddened buttocks, "what do you mean by the term 'ravage'?"

"Civilization as we know it has been destroyed."

The observation finally struck some small shred of consciousness within RMS. He looked at ESR and they embraced, weeping for the lost souls of their bretheren.

RMS squeezed ESR as though he were another reality and bringing that reality within himself would replace the grimness of what he was seeing. ESR called out in pain as a baby dolphin dropped from his bleeding rectum.

Part VII: The Malted

RMS and ESR sat together at the shore singing ancient druid hymns. The baby dolphin frolicked in the warm waters, jumping high into the air as if dancing to RMS's whimsical notes.

ESR, having finally accepted his new homelife, sighed deeply with contentment, "in time, the radiation will mutate us such that we may live in the oceans too."

RMS smiled, "and we can repopulate the Earth with our superior race."

A loud banging of rocks from a ledge in the distance interrupted their romantic interlude. ESR's eyes opened wide in the darkness as he watched two humanoid forms appear on the horizon, "good God, Allie, what could they be?!"

"Let's be careful about our terms. What, precisely, do you mean by 'God'?"

The figures approached rapidly and ESR soon realized who they were, "Oh no! This CAN'T BE!"

OSM and Natalie Portman ran excitedly to the two interrupted lovers, "we were expecting you two," they giggled.

OSM and Natalie Portman let go each other's hands just long enough to push RMS and ESR into the brine. They laughed hysterically as the two, obese bodies dissolved into foam.

"Oh, OSM, we are once again alone. The world is truly our oyster."

"And you are like the rarest pearl, my sweet."

Part VIII: Epilog

Sandy ran to the beach, his twelve-year-old body reddened with sun, his blonde hair blown by wind, "Flipper... Flipper!" he called.

Two dolphins appeard in the distance and swam gleafully toward Sandy. They jumped from the water, high into the air. Clicking and clattering in some language that only they and Sandy could understand.

"This is your wife?! I didn't know you had a wife Flipper!"

"eeeeeeeeeehh..... a-a-a-a-a... ckckckckckckcck"

"A hot young actress?! You're going to do what?! DAD?! FLIPPER IS TALKING DIRTY!! DAD!! DAD HELP ME!"

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