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Is Red Hat becoming too powerful?

justin++ posted more than 15 years ago | from the more-flamebait dept.

Linux 155

Robert McMillan writes "Nick Petreley answers the question "Is Red Hat becoming too powerful" in hist latest LinuxWorld column. We also have an interesting opinion piece by Bob Young on the site explaining why Linux won't Balkanize. " I feel like throwing more bait into the ring :) Anyway, I think Nick hit on something big - if Red Hat tries to bully an OEM, the OEM laughs rather than trembles in fear like they might with a certain other vendor. Maybe that is stretching it too far, but it's food for thought. What do you think?

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Flame bait (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026058)

If Red Hat wasn't helping out the whole Linux
community then I would say yes. But I find that
they are a key factor in getting people to switch
from Windows to Linux. Red Hat will lead the way
for the others to follow. We're all one big happy
family, can't we just get along ;)

Not flame bait (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026059)

The article has a provocative title but the
content draws a reasonable conclusion that
any coup attempts by Caldera or Red Hat would
be their undoing anyway, so it's really not
a hot button issue.

Here's some real Grade A flame bait for you:

KDE and GNOME both suck!! Window Maker rules!!!

Yeah, yeah, yeah!! That's right! Read it and weep!!!

RedHat - The next tyran ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026060)

As a Slackware user since a long time, I always tough of RedHat as the linux distro for wimps with it's ugly config utils. I don't like that "corporate" image attached to the RedHat name.

But I don't think they're a threat as they help the Linux communauty. RedHat is not the only choice, there are other distros like Suse and Slackware. So if you dont like RH, just use another.

Besides that, why pay 50$ for RH when you can get Slackware for 2$ at

Not flame bait (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026061)

Yes KDE and Gnome suck, I don't need a desktop with cute icons. I just a fast WM like IceWM.

No problem.. GPL protects us from this... Go read (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026062)

I'm sick of hearing comments that Redhat will just become the next Microsoft.

The GPL protects us from such long as Redhat keeps using the GPL licence, then it is impossible for them to 'control' the code.

Currently Redhat is pumping alot of money into paying programmers to write GPL code. That code is now "free" and no-one can control it. ie: the gnome project is going to benefit Debian and alot of other distributions.

As long as Redhat remain ardent supporters of the GPL, more power to them.

Go read the stuff on and understand how the GPL works.

The GPL should be the standard by which we mark all things... If it is GPL it is free. Not many other companies are willing to stick their neck out like RedHat are and put money into GPL code. (TrollTech are a great example of half wanting to give out open source code, but not wanting it to be totally free (ie: copylefted)).

Don't fear Redhat because they are successful. Fear those who are to weak to use the GPL license.

(Yes I wish that even XFree86 was GPL).


IBM Hat (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026063)

Leave RedHat alone. What we have to worry about is when IBM creates a distribution based on RedHat. RedHat will then become insignificant and IBM will be the bully.

Just remember that you heard it first on the Internet!

SuSE is a tyrant (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026064)

SuSE does not provide an Open Source installer. RMS even said "SuSE is the worst". Well, I won't disagree with Richard Stallman himself! SuSE blows.

Please explain (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026065)

Why would either of these be scary? With Open Source you have nothing to fear.

Who cares? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026066)

Microsoft never did, and never will make me use any of their low-quality systems, same with RedHat. I use the best only, Slack, and that's it. A million people wont make me change.

SuSE is the worst. -- RMS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026067)

Yep, Richard Stallman of the Free Software
Foundation said that SuSE is the worst.
Red Hat was second best, after Debian.

Why don't Redhat deliver the REAL apps for Linux? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026068)

Redhat can't be considered a threat until they
start delivering real applications for Linux,
like Tomb Raider.

Linux needs big breasted women with guns.

Not flame bait (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026069)

Oh yeah?

TWM owns your lame ass!!!

The problem is (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026070)

The problem is not that RedHat is becomming too powerful, but that they release buggy distribution. It is very unfortunate that now many people associate Linux with RedHat, hence buggy RedHat = buggy Linux. People tend to judge by the first impression and for most people, RedHat is the first distribution they try. Imagine what impression they'll get when they suffer from RedHat's bugs?

Better question:Is Red Hat becoming too bloated? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026071)

Answer: Yes.

You got the big money investments, now use it to

cut out the dead wood and put some polish on your

crappy distro.

RedHat - Just another distro... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026072)

the distro for wimps? You may not personally like their "corporate" image but then again that is the whole point of different distros. I see a good thing when I see different distros selling to different people. RedHat's focus is on Linux newbies and the young corporate managers and CEOs. Caldera is more for the traditional corporate types, Slackware is more for the die hard Linux geeks who don't want everything packaged in a nice neat box but who also don't want to roll out their own distro either. Linux is OS so there is no fear of another MS, if RedHat or any distro gets huge and starts doing crap like MS is, people can switch. Right now if you are forced to use windows you don't have a choice of *who's* windows to use. MS is the only one making it. Each distro has their audience and they all use the same linux kernel which is what really matters in the end, that Linux is linux is linux. One OS but different distros for different audiences just as their are different Window Managers for different tastes. Diversity is a good thing.

Why does this seem to linger in the mind? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026073)

This has been lingering in my mind for the past few months! What if Red Hat did actually become the most used distribution of Linux? Would that mean that Red Hat sets the standards?

I guess we should keep in our mind that a good number of the CS majors who read /. would like to work for Red Hat with hopes of tackling Microsoft. Also, that they also probably have idealistic hopes for what happens after Microsoft.

I don't believe Red Hat would have a monopoly on standardization. Almost everything they've done has been GPL'd, and everything they do will work with all other Linuxes... I really believe that the Linux community has nothing to fear of Red Hat becoming a standards entity instead of a Linux programming powerhouse.

- Shaheen Gandhi

SuSE contains non-free software. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026074)

The SuSE admin/install program "YaST" is not
free software. That being a rather critical
part of the distribution, the whole thing must
be considered proprietary.

Proprietary Linux distributions are not much
better than the proprietary Windows distribution.

Imagine This... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026075)

What if Microsoft actually DOES produce a Linux distribution. Using Linux as the kernel and replacing X with their Win32 (or Win64 or whatever) display server and controlling that with a vengence. Then companies would relase software for "Linux" but it would only run on the Microsoft API. Maybe it would only work in single user mode.

This would be an improvement for windows users because they would finally get a stable kernel, and at least the Linux kernel would get more widespread use. But, it would let microsoft get some controll of the Linux market. Many people would be shelling out money for Linux when they are actually paying for the windows API.

I guess things like WINE would help, but mocrosoft could change the API to break them. Maybe it wouldn't be all bad, It would probably make Linux a bigger player than it is right now. You could still use X or whatever if you wanted to (I'm sure it wouldn't go away). This possibility crossed my mind and I had to post.

I suddenly feel so dirty.

How's this for a slogan:
In a world without walls, who needs windows?

simple! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026076)

so you can have a libc5 linux
this way if you use WINE and want to run programs that use Win32 threading, you can't, among other things

it also has the added benefit of being more time consuming to upgrade/remove software packages

note that debian also "sucks" in these respects

what's "best" can vary for each person (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026077)

what if some people like redhat's install/config tools better?

It really doesn't matter... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026078)

If RedHat wasn't on top, then some other commercial distrobution would be, thats the way it works. Do you people think that if Microsoft were to be completely taken out of the picture that everyone would be equals? No, of course not, someone would come into the picture and do the same thing. Welcome to the real world, like it or not business REVOLVES around money not making you happy. Companies make you happy to a point but their prime directive is, has always been, and will ALWAYS be - making money. Go ahead, rant and rave about Microsoft but watch, in a short while, there will be another company around just as big and just as bad. Get over it people. Its as simple as this: If you dont like the software, DON'T USE IT.

True, but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026079)

It's true that a lot of apps are distributed only as Red Hat RPMs. From an app vendor's POV, this makes perfect sense -- if you want people to use your software, you distribute it in the way that makes it as easy as possible to use for as many people as possible. Currently, that means RPM.

But that's not a Bad Thing. Last time I checked, anyone with a running Linux system could go to Red Hat's FTP server and download the source for the RPM software. I've had a Slackware system that grokked RPM files with no problem at all, so why is this a big issue?

For the record, I *have* worried about Red Hat's dominance, but I don't think there's really a need for worry. RH is one of very few programming shops that actually has *paid* programmers whose jobs are to contribute to GPL projects like GNOME and GTK and E! and... We need to encourage this behaviour instead of becoming paranoid about it!

Is Red Hat becoming too powerful? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026080)

It doesn't really matter how powerful they become, as long as they start delivering a quality product, and drop the crappy, frivilous toys they are working on, like Gnome.

What has made Red Hat a quality product is easy installation, and RPMs, plain and simple.

Red Hat needs to concentrate on their release, and
increase the functionality of their product instead of playing with junk that sucks, like Gnome, or fields which Caldera is beating the living hell out of them in like an integrated office product such as Star Office, or wicked
X-windows like window maker or KDE.


RedHat is *THE BUGGIEST* distribution (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026081)

Excuse me, NO other distribution ever killed my partitions. And RedHat's Disk Druid, the buggy piece of shit, did!!! Come to think of it, even winblows never killed my partitions...

RedHat is the only distro that doesn't have keybindings set up properly. Try pressing Home, End or Delete in a console in RedHat. Now try the same in SuSE or Debian. Notice the difference?

5.0 detected my video card and mouse. Since 5.1 video card detection was broken. Since 5.2 mouse detection was broken. (It's a standard serial mouse, for God's sake!!!)

In 5.1 bootup scripts had the stupidest bug in them I've ever seen:

if [ something ]; then
depmod -a preferred
depmod -a preferred

Needless to say it didn't work.

Well, I could go on, but you pretty much get the idea (I hope). RedHat is *the* buggiest distribution I've ever seen.

Crack (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026082)

I know RMS personally. You're on crack. He's a good guy, who's dedicated the past 15 years of his life to helping the world. He's also incredibly intelligent. None of your critisisms are even close to valid.

You missed the point!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026083)

I *do* use fdisk. But the thing is that this *shouldn't have happened*. If they include Disk Druid with their distro, they'd better make sure it's bug-free. Playing with partitions is not a joke.

Of course that wasn't flamebait (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026084)

Everyone knows that Window Maker rules GNOME and KDE. Then again Window Maker also run GNOME and KDE (not in a literal sense, but you all know what I mean).

SuSE contains non-free software. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026085)

The source for everything in a SuSE distribution is included, with the exception of Netscape Communicator and some demo ware from ISV's. I chose SuSE for their better international support. SuSE and Red Hat have been working together to improve the Linux distribution. Beware: Some people say stuff that's politically motivated in these discussions...

They need to work on priorities. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026086)

The red hats are good guys, but I don't thing their priorities are right. Big bucks on Gnome, etc., but the installation software is still horible. I've been installing RH about once a year for four years usually with the manuals and each time I curse RH because the installation SW is such junk. Things flat out wrong or missing that they don't bother to change. So much knowledge assumed with only hints for help. And then they want you to use their "control-panel" which is even worse. They need to do less, better; and document it well.

Actions (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026087)

I judge a distributino by its actions. To me, Red Hat has proven its commitment to free software. It's one of the only two major distributions with a strong ethical policy (together with Debian). Although I don't run Red Hat (I prefer Debian), I trust them in the positino they are taking. I trust them much more than SuSE and Caldera, both of whom have only shown a commitment to profit. I think a Red Hat near-monopoly, in the short term, is a good thing, because it prevents Linux from falling away from its free software roots. With theoretical ideal competition (lots of small distributions battling it out), the one most likely to one would be the no-holds-barred, which would include proprietary software, and would be a Bad Thing (tm) for Linux.

Red Hat will destroy all life on earth! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026088)

. . . including your dog! Yes, your fuzzy, cute, adorable, loving, happy, bouncy little puppy-dog named Curly! Oh, poor Curly . . . Poor, poor Curly! What did he ever do to deserve this cruel treatment?

He stood in the way of the Iron Fist of Rob Young, that's what.

Him and all the cuddly zebras and giraffes, all gone, all just ashes and dust. All of them. Every one. Even the dolphins, and the happy smiling squids will succumb. And why?

They stood in the way of the Iron Fist of Rob Young, that's why.

Oh, it's a terrible cruel cold world, I tell you. A terrible cruel cold world indeed.

The Horrible Truth About Red Hat (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026089)

Please consider these documented facts and make up your own mind about the nature of this terrifying threat.

  • FACT: All Red Hat employees are branded with the Sign of the Hat in the center of their sternums. This has been independently confirmed by several Red Hat employees in private conversation.

  • FACT: At the Red Hat corporate offices, the drinking water contains large doses of lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) and sodium pentothal. (Lab results available on request).

  • FACT: The Red Hat employee's day begins with an hour-long session of bayonet drill and unison chanting. (Boston Globe, page C1, 3/23/98)

  • FACT: Red Hat owns and maintains a "re-education camp" for KDE users in the mountains northwest of Edmonton, Alberta. This has been thoroughly documented by the FBI. Still don't believe it? Rob Young has publically admitted to being Canadian. Think about it.

  • FACT: After lunch, every Red Hat employee is required to attend a two-hour-long Hate Hour session, in which they focus their rage on a giant portrait of Richard Stallman, superimposed over the GPL.

  • FACT: Local police departments in the area of Research Triangle Park, NC, have reported a 109% average rise in complaints of cannibalism, human sacrifice, and crop circles every year since Red Hat took up residence in 1995.

  • FACT: At two minutes after five o'clock, on November 2, 1998, five masked assassins fought a pitched battle with Transmeta Corp. security personnel at the Transmeta facility in Silicon Valley. The assassins committed suicide on capture, and their bodies were mysteriously "misplaced" before autopsies could be performed. The assassins were accompanied by *two* Irish setters trained to respond to Finnish accents by attacking. Is it a coincidence that version 5.2 of Red Hat's linux distro was released on that day?

  • FACT: Vince Foster's body was found wearing a red fedora.

  • FACT: As documented in the Wall Street Journal (11/31/98), Red Hat spent $120,700 in 1998 developing an national print and broadcast media advertising campaign built around the slogan, "We Will Drink Your Blood", but the campaign was cancelled at the last moment when it fared ill with focus groups.

  • FACT: Rob Young keeps a large glass jar on his desk, filled with formaldehyde and containing a mass of fatty gray tissue reputed to be Martin Borman's brain. The jar is labeled "Marty, Special Advisor to the Overlord". In personal conversations, Young frequently describes his decisions as having been "suggested by Marty". (New York Times, 6/21/97)

Now the truth has been told, and you can make a calm, well-informed decision.

I think MS-Linux would be great. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026090)

I was thinking how far MS came when they did the 3.1 to win95 jump. DirectX seems to give gamers some real benefits, the GUI is sweet (save for a pager.) The drawback is that you still have msdos underneath and NT isn't much better. It's not stable. But, if Windows had a linux kernel underneath, it would probably be a very successful operating system.

And you know, they could basically just work on the gui and api and be done with it. WINE shows it's possible and Microsoft clearly has the ability (and the right, I dare say) to produce a truly effective windows API in X. Hell, they could probably improve on X.

The more I think about it, the more I think that Windows with a linux kernel would rock. No kidding. Instant Linux Gaming. No more imposter-to-the-king-freebie-office-suites. Real MS-Office running fast and natively in Linux.

Don't do it like that. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026091)

Grab another machine and make a boot floppy and then grab the stuff you really want off of the other machine. If you're trying to squeeze Red Hat into that small of a space, you need to already know what you're doing.

Your instructor is an idiot. Big surprise. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026092)

I thought we had hunted the last one down in December. It's your duty to kill him before his kind overbreed and ruin their ecosystem.

Can a brand logo be wiped from a GPL splashcreen? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026093)

In a commodity product market like beer, tobacco, or even Linux distributions, BRAND is everything. Redhat has obviously figured this out and puts a lot of effort into their brand marketing.

Here's something I've wondered about. When Electric Eyes (produced by RHAD) is launched, it brings up a splashscreen which includes the Redhat logo (the cartoon shadow profile wearing the red hat). In the src this is "stdimg.xpm"

What if another commercial Linux distribution, not wanting to promote another brand were to include eeyes, but with a modified splashscreen which included Redhat's copyright text (as is appropriate), but with the Redhat logo edited out? Can that be done with a GPL application?

Your point is.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026094)

And this is related to the article because....
then Microsoft would dwarf RedHat and who would ever remember that they ever worried that RedHat was too large?

Well, that would be fine by me. It'd be great if MS Linux was what most people used and it was stable and nobody ever asked me about windows problems because they all disappeared.

And Linux users could get back to basics and away from this world-domination /. crap. Who cares if Linux is user friendly? Who wants their desktop cluttered with all that graphical configuration crap-- "Press this button if you want sloppy focus and this button for click-to-focus. Are you sure?" Listen, "Not crashing" is not a good reason to use Linux. And if Windows could use Linux to make it crashproof, that'd be great for windows and would be great for windows users and would release some of the rest of us from our supreme burdon of saving the meek and uninformed computer users or the world.

Not flame bait (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026095)

Everyone knows that QDE will wipe out all three of them!

We need someone to hate (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026096)

When Microsoft will be death who's going to get our frustation? RedHat? It looks like that it already started...

And of course, this is not a flame :)

MS Office? FAST? Not in the same breath, bucko. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026097)

Yeah. I know Office is overweight. But don't you think it would run better on a solid operating system. I mean, with linux, that office suite could work over a network, no? People would rather use and have it not crash, right?

So, I can only imagine how fast you computer is. So I guess I'm asking whether or not you think that some of the crappiness of MSOffice is because of the operating system and not the program itself. So, wouldn't you rather use a crash-free linux/windows environment at work?

I disagree (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026098)

IMHO it's funnier about Red Hat, because some people are just as paranoid about Red Hat as they are about MS, but Red Hat just ain't that bad. If it were about MS, I wouldn't find it funny at all; absurd over-exaggeration of something reasonable (e.g. "MS is harmful") doesn't amuse me that much. But if you take something completely bass-ackwards and then absurdly exaggerate that -- well, then my li'l ears prick up and I starts a-gigglin'.

I think it's funny 'cause it's so bizarre, that's all.

I tried RedHat 5.1 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026099)

For some reason their ipfwadm RPM didn't work. I
installed the ipfwadm from my copy of Suse 5.2
and then masquerading started working. And I
kept the config files from the RedHat RPM of
that package so the configs weren't a problem.

The link /dev/modem did not exist. Oh sure
easy as pie to create it, but why doesn't this
link exist? Guess what? Minicom doesn't work
without that link. Some newbie gets his new
copy of RedHat looks at a PPP Howo. Tries
to fire up Minicom and no luck for him.

I gave up on RedHat after this simply because
I feared these small problems were indicative
of an otherwise rotten core.

SUSE 6.0 is the best distribution.

Times change... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026100)

> BTW, isn't Linux all about the kernal anyways? :)

oh, ask RMS about that one.

SuSE contains cholesterol and nutra-sweet (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026101)

And ELEVEN OTHER essential vitamins and minerals, including eye of newt, toe of frong, a toad's eyelashes, a wad of hemp, a knot short of a hectare, a giant squid from schenechtady, NY, and a giant vampire bat's vestigial lower mandible, sauteed in a nice bordeaux with butter, rosemary, and some fresh chives. yum, ym!

(don't ask me what the hell a "frong" is; it was a typo that i liked and decided to adopt. i'll wash it and brush it and feed it every day, i swear mom! i swear!)

SuSE is the worst. -- RMS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026102)

By "worst" he meant "least free" (where free==freedom). Whether this is actually true, I don't know. I don't use SuSE. However, the context in which RMS said this is important. He was asked which are the best and worst distributions, in his opinion, in terms of their degree of proprietary features. He WASN'T making a value judgement based on other considerations (ie. which is "best" for new users, "best" for business, "best" packaging, etc.) He also admitted a lack of direct knowledge in this regard.

Just to keep the record straight and the comments in context.

Chad Netzer

Bob Dobbs - the next tyrant? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026103)

Why pay $39.95 for Slackware when I can get Red Hat 5.2 for $1.95 from

Screw Cheapbytes, support the Linux community!

Flame bait (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026104)

I think RedHat couldn't pull a Microsoft with Linux. The kernel, and all the utilities (except the ones Redhat has developed) are GNU. If Redhat tries to throw weight around with its propriotary utilities, chances are people will get fed up and someone will write GNU versions of RPM and the like.. (humm.. GPM) Then some other distribution will take centre stage.

I think Redhat's best strategy is to make money by offering Tech support.

-> $0.02 (or &0.01) from Mori

Whatever you say Preston Tucker... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026105)

Why don't you just buy a rear wheel drive car then? That's what I drive. In theory you should be able to as well.


RedHat the bully (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026106)

I recently published a piece of software the competed with one of RedHat's product. The name of the product, they say, was too similar to theirs, yet their product name was so vague they couldn't get a trademark on it if their life depended on it. They thretened to pull permission to use the RH name. We couldn't even have a "red hat" of any shape or form on the package. Just the word RedHat because they didn't want people to get my product confused with theirs..

SuSE is the worst. -- RMS = loser (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026107)

This will certainly make me take whatever RMS says
again with a grain of salt.. obviously not knowing
for sure, means you don't make a public statement
about something - especially a false one at that.


agreed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026108)

RedHat releases their distros too soon, before they even have a chance to test them. I would tolerate such behaviour in a beta-version. Perhaps even the destruction of my partitions (although that is a VERY bad bug). But havinig it in a distribution that is supposed to be stable??? Even worth, in a distribution with over 50% of Linux users??? I think not!!!

To reiterate, I don't really see a problem with RedHat being too big. But I do see a HUGE problem with them releasing buggy software.

Crackdot! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026109)

hahahahaha! Crackdot! Crackdot!

I know a blind leper, who sits in the middle of Commonwealth Avenue over by BU and masturbates all day while spitting peach pits at schoolchildren and singing Taiwanese folk songs about kicking Mao's sorry ass. He does windows, too.

He uses a Mac, and he reads CRACKDOT! Every fuckin' DAY he reads Crackdot! Crackdot! Crackdot!


only 'cause your mom's a fucking cunt, you fascist (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026110)

this is the most intelligent comment i have yet
to read

The problem is (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026111)

the problem is that too many people have installed Red Hat and then "forgotten" about it... leaving vulnerable IMAP servers and the like running.

good news for stability of Linux and Red Hat's distribution... bad for security :(

SuSE is the worst. -- RMS = loser (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026112)

get real. if not for RMS you wouldn't have the freaking compiler to compile linux...not to mention tons of other things. grow up

Can a brand logo be wiped from a GPL splashcreen? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026113)

sure, but why would you want to do that seeing as Red Hat did pay the guy to write it in the first place?

easy there killer... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026114)

Only 7 more weeks to spring break...

Not flame bait (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026115)

Ahh get fscked! The command line rulezzzz!!!

bash rulezzzzz

Who needs X, let alone a cutesy fancy WM to run on it?



ps. Have you downloaded the latest E? It's getting pretty darn rockin. :)

yeah! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026116)

i hate you fucking sonsabitches, you and your fucking desktop . . . nobody needsa desk fuck the top, fuck the desk, you all suck, you fuckers, fuck fucking fucker fuck, goddammit you fucking suck goddammit!

god, it makes my blood boil! i could just EAT HUMAN FLESH AND GNAW MY OWN ANKLES OFF just from THINKING about the EVIL gnome . . . evil . . . evil . . . EEEEEEEEEEEEEVVVVVVVILLLLL!

gra! gra! gra! gra! gra! arggggaakasl sakl; se ek iljiwrg sk s fskl dflkj as jlk4 o4l sd d mene mene, tekel, upharsin! ze ma yesh! ohhhh, MOMMY!


Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026117)

GNOME has no "right" to be the standard Linux desktop anymore than KDE has the "right" to be the standard linux desktop. Come to think of it, how can software - an inanimate object - have any "rights" at all? It can't so therefore GNOME cannot take its "rightful" place as the standard linux desktop!!!

Anyways, now that Qt is being licensed under the GPL, the #1 objection the GNOME folks had to KDE is now irrelevant. Basically what's left are just religious wars - C vs. C++, GTK vs. Qt, etc.

Now, there is no way the GNOME folks are going to eradicate KDE, and there is no way the KDE folks are going to eradicate GNOME. (Although I have observed that there are a lot more GNOME folks who want to eradicate KDE.) The best thing to do is to make sure that the two environments can be used interchangeably through common drag-and-drop APIs and such.

back to the VAR, suit-boy (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026118)

hey, you don't get it. you're not required to, and that's okay, but the bottom line is that you just don't get it.

blah blah blah ducks in a row on the same page, see? i can talk like i got a tie too. now go back to the VAR and vegetate w/ the rest of the suits.

read businessweek or whatever you people do instead of working.

That's because you're eating Hitler's brain (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026119)

. . . with a knife and fork, don't think I can't see you, 'cause i got like super vision and all that, 'cause i et this little white pill and I AM SUPERMAN!

like, ubermensch, get it? oh, well.

the love of money is the root of all evil (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026120)

redhat is already having people sign NDA
little by little freedom will crumble
because "well one more little thing
isnt that bad, and we need it to do X and
dominate the desktop and the world etc etc"

there was a goose that layed golden eggs
and then some farmer came along and killed
it to get the eggs out of its belly.

well i have farmer's urges of my own now and then
but damn, i dont celebrate it.


Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026121)

I have observed that there are a lot more GNOME folks who want to eradicate KDE

While I certainly got a kick out of your subject line, I don't agree with this point at all. From where I sit (on the GNOME side of the fence), it looks to me like more KDE people are more anti-GNOME. It's probably a matter of perception. As for your other points about working together and all that, those are valid and, while it's been said before, it needs to be said again and again until people calm down and listen (except that Qt ain't GPL, it's QPL, which is a different license entirely).

Anyhow, GAACCCKKKKK and a merry XMas to you all!

Established vendor flavored Linux (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026122)

What I'm always curious about is what Sun thinks about Linux. Solaris/X86 seems as if it could really be threatened as an alternative anyone would choose by Linux now that major DB packages are being made available, and at least one major hardware company is supporting Linux (see 012699.htm), at least on PC hardware. Why buy Solaris/x86, other than "...that's what the in^W^Wconsultant recommended." Or does Sun simply not care -- they'd prefer you buy into their HW & SW solution anyway?

I was actually surprised to see HP supporting Linux at all -- I would think it would cut into their low-end HPUX business.

I guess what worries me more than anything is that we'll end up with integrated high-end hardware, but with non-GPL'd drivers or vendor-specific kernel releases. And then where are we? Might as well be running HPUX/Solaris/AIX. I hope that HP in particular submits their driver code to Linus for inclusion in general releases so that the open-source components don't get clobbered.

They help in some ways, but hurt in others. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026123)

Here here! I like to use zip drives with bare-bones installations and a loadlin boot floppy as a rescue sytem. This was easy to do with RH4.x, but it seems the 5.x series INSISTS on installing a ton of stuff that's not wanted, even if you deselect it.

I don't have a particular beef with the installations "not working", but I wish they'd make "base" package selection a little more user-controllable, and quit throwing in all the "extras" in the base system. You should be able to get a usable minimum system in less than 100MB.

SuSE contains non-free software. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026124)

wow. then how come i'm running a SuSE installed from a CD published by third vendor, and upgrades from thier web site?
what is so evil about proprietary stuffs anyway, if it works and it's free.
"oh maybe they will charge more like MS someday",
well, then i'll use my slackware hard drive.

How many SOLD RedHat 5.0 CD got installed? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026125)

yeah right on.
i got people telling me all the time that they bought this REd Hat 5.0 CD set and shelf them. beh! sales don't tell you much.
the most install and most combined knowledge is still S-L-A-C-K-W-A-R-E !

Go SlackWare! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026126)

i heard red hat has a "control panel" bwahahahaha..

all red hat users' knowledge combined cannot reach half of what slackware populations' knowledge.

hell they can't even configure X!

Slackware forever.

horrifying applix, too (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026127)

yeah, and red hat 5.0? even the lamest lamer wouldn't install it.
gives people bad inpression about linux

you mean red hat people read dox?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026128)

news to me!

same experience here (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026129)

and i had been using slackware for a while when i tried it. terribly misleading. i just tried SuSE, and i gota say, SuSE is just nice. i was impressed.

Fear other stuff (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2026163)

Right now I'm more worried about the following two possibilities:

* IBM Linux. Ok IBM's pretty hip to the open source scene, but you gotta admit this would become the number 1 business linux overnight.

* Microsoft Linux. The very idea makes my flesh crawl and the only thing that's preventing it is the overwhelming pride of Microsoft. As soon as the overwhelming business sense of Microsoft starts to overwhelm the pride... look out...

See your post above??? (1)

gavinhall (33) | more than 15 years ago | (#2026166)

Posted by Rezidew:

Sure. Uh...which AC are you again?

Bill Kocik | Blackspring Communications |

RedHat is *THE BUGGIEST* distribution (1)

gavinhall (33) | more than 15 years ago | (#2026167)

Posted by obituary:

Hahaha. Yes, I discovered that "depmod -a preferred" bug for myself when a friend of mine asked me to fix the pages of "unresolved symbol(s)" messages he got from his newly compiled kernel and modules. After locating the problem, I nearly fell out of my chair in hysterics ;-)

I advised him to use Slackware. He is now a happy man.

Simplicity is devine.
Long Live Slackware!

The problem is (1)

CC (1075) | more than 15 years ago | (#2026171)

Red Hat really is a buggy thing, but not just bugs. If you install as a server setup RH goes and installs pop2 as default.

What could be dumber, I have had two people attacked through this and of course when I find out we disable pop2. As a slackware user I never dreamed anyone could be so dumb, so it took the saint to find this.

The real problem for me is that with all the RH hype all the pointy heads want RH. It's a drag to install and a drag to administer.

RedHat Bugs... (1)

BadlandZ (1725) | more than 15 years ago | (#2026172)

I got very anoyed with RedHat 5.2 this weekend. ON THREE systems with THREE diffrent ethernet cards, I grab the boot disk, go to do an nfs install (on two of the boxes) or ftp install (on the third) and the bootdisk/supplemental disk won't load the kernel modules for any of the three ethernet cards I wanted to use (NE2000 ISA, NE2000 PCI, and WD8013)!

So, I just grabed an old SuSE 5.1 boot disk, and it worked flawlessly (and on ONE disk, yes, a ONE FLOPPY, NO CDROM complete install). Of course, then I had to upgrade a ton of packages.

I have a great deal of respect for Red Hat, and I wish them and Bob Young the best of luck. But, putting out 3-5 versions a year should NOT be a priority, getting it right should. 4.2 was good. Ever since that, I feel they have released to frequently, and too soon. IMHO 6.0 should have Gnome 1.0, and Kernel 2.2.x, and should be blanket tested in a widely distributed prerelease version before shipping. But, I guess I can't complain too much, 80% of my boxes run Red Hat :-/

I don't fear Red Hat becoming an "Evil Empire at all. It's almost impossable. I would LOVE to see IBM sell a distribution (especially on thier G3 boxen!). I don't think that any of them can be a treat when the source is GPL'ed. The problem comes for the lack of a standard, and that is currently being addressed by the LSB committee (still working slowly and quietly in the background).

The only real threat would be that with the lack of something like the LSB, if some distribution grows too big, they BECOME the standard, (for example, you _know_ people would port to IBM's or Microsoft's version of Linux), and what if the big name distribution is non standard, leaving apps only working on that distribution.

Long live the LSB.

I disagree (1)

BadlandZ (1725) | more than 15 years ago | (#2026173)

I disagree, see my previous post one level up, same level as yours. I know my way around a box, and I can spark a shell and insert a kernel module on my own during install. But when they are rejected, the whole thing is fuxered.... Not just some little package that needs to be updated.

RedHat - The next tyran ? (1)

GrenDel Fuego (2558) | more than 15 years ago | (#2026175)

You can get Redhat for the same price at the same place.. or download either one for free.

RedHat is not a version of Linux... (1)

osu-neko (2604) | more than 15 years ago | (#2026176)

It's not the only Linux, Slackware is Linux too. Why tell someone RedHat isn't Linux? Just tell them that it's just one version of Linux.

That would actually be overstating it. Redhat is not a version of Linux. RedHat is a distribution of Linux. Versions of Linux bare such monikers as "2.0.36" or "2.2.1" or whatever version you prefer. Two different people may use RedHat but be running different versions of Linux, and two people may be running the same version of Linux but only one be running RedHat.

People attach far too much importance to what distro you use. Who cares where exactly your rc files are? Who cares where a specific binary is, as long as its in the path? Who cares whether you used rpm or tar to install them? None of this makes any difference to a properly written application...

Starting reality daemon: realityd

Redhat & Software (1)

logicTrAp (2864) | more than 15 years ago | (#2026179)

Just remember, Redhat has GPLed *everything* of theirs, including the install program. This may have changed, but at one point the same couldn't be said about Slackware & SuSE.

If you like it, cool, use it. If not, use something else.

Yes. (1)

Squeeze Truck (2971) | more than 15 years ago | (#2026180)

Look how many programs come out as RedHat 5.x binary RPMs only.

Bad trend. Bad bad bad.

Of course any distro could be made to be RH-compatible, but it doesn't seem like they should have to.

Are they? (1)

Squeeze Truck (2971) | more than 15 years ago | (#2026181)

Is RedHat using it's might to advance Linux, or are they using the might of Linux for their own advancement?

If RedHat started using the penguin logo rather than plastering their own logo on everything they do, and stop refering to Linux as "their" OS, I would beieve the former.

Ditto for Caldera.

As if. (1)

IGnatius T Foobar (4328) | more than 15 years ago | (#2026183)

Red Hat has effectively prevented itself from becoming a tyrant by GPL'ing everything it feeds back into the Linux community. This very action has also led many Linux users to trust Red Hat as the "safe" distribution of Linux, because there's nothing proprietary in it. Plus, Red Hat has done much to make Linux easier to install and use. Tyrannical? They can't get tyrannical because the only thing keeping them at #1 is the fact that they have the best, most coherent product, and that's the way it should be!

Furthermore, RedHat's leadership will allow the rapid emergence of some de facto standards, as long as RedHat does not abuse its leadership position (in which case they will immediately lose it). This will allow GNOME to take its rightful place as the standard Linux desktop.

Unfounded fears (1)

nicedream (4923) | more than 15 years ago | (#2026184)

Just because RedHat is the biggest selling Linux Distro doesn't mean they are getting too big. There is a difference between a company that abuses its power (MS) and one that uses its might to improve the community by contributing code, utilities, and promoting GPLed software. All other Linux distributions benefit when one gets publicity, and you can't deny that most Linux coverage has been for Red Hat. In fact, that's the ONLY reason this argument is being made. Mainstream press like ZD are not covering the whole story. People who aren't familiar are bound to get the wrong impression. (No, its not Linux, its RedHat).


I think Slackware is getting too big... (1)

calx (7931) | more than 15 years ago | (#2026186)

I think we should break up the Slakware project. I think that too many people are using it, and we must put an end to it at once. It has become too powerful and the ability to intimidate large OEMs to see things their way.

We must also force the KDE and GNOME projects to cease development to allow other projects to catch up.

Give the people what they want. After all, the consumer is the one who will make the final decisions on issues like this.

No animals were harmed in anyway during the beta testing of SuSE 6.0

Offspring (1)

lattice (8200) | more than 15 years ago | (#2026188)

The linux world seems to be a hash of various things, anyways, and i don't think that redhat necessarily has much power. If one looks at the distribution lists, there are a lot of redhat derived distributions. As previous comments have mentioned, if any distribution attempts a hostile takeover, people will just move away. This is something to be worried about in 5 years. It's too early now.

The problem is (1)

Milosch (8290) | more than 15 years ago | (#2026189)

There is no such thing as a big free software distribution. Don't delude yourself.

Red Hat Beneficial (1)

Cassius (9481) | more than 15 years ago | (#2026190)

Red Hat is out ahead because they are being shrewd business people - making good deals and making them before the competition. This is a _good_ quality. Let the market sort it out.

Obviously most of you agree, as a recent /. poll indicated that RedHat was the most popular distro - you're voting with your wallets.

They help in some ways, but hurt in others. (1)

Trixter (9555) | more than 15 years ago | (#2026191)

Redhat has done some wonderful things in terms of contributing back to the *nix community, don't get me wrong--but I do fear that they will "Microsoft-ify" in a couple of years. By that, I mean that they will change the public's perception of what is allowable for an operating system to require, even if it's unreasonable. For example, their 5.x distributions have unreasonable system and/or installation requirements, which really hurts because I try to use Unix (FreeBSD, Linux, whatever) as an alternative to bloated OSes (like Windows NT) when you are trying to make use of perfectly good old hardware (386s, 486s) for DNS servers. But when Redhat 5.2 requires 8MB of RAM to install and 120MB minimum disk space for 5.2, what can I use?

(I understand that it's 8MB to install and that you can prune that down to 4MB after you install. But that's little help when all you have is 4MB in the machine. FreeBSD is a little better, but 2.2.* still requires a bit more (5MB to install, 4MB afterwards to run)).

I remember my original Slackware installing and running in 2MB. And this was before loadable kernel modules. So what am I missing? If Redhat becomes the dominant Linux distribution, and it eventually requires 16MB of RAM, and the other older distributions aren't available any more, how can I make use of perfectly good older machines with, say, 4MB of RAM and an 80MB disk?

(As a footnote, I attempted an install on an 80MB disk with 5.1, and it insisted on installing over 80MB of stuff, even with most packages deselected and no kernel source. It was a trip to try to delete binaries and directory trees while the install was happening in an effort to get the install to work. :-)

Market not ready for Linux (1)

Mooset (9986) | more than 15 years ago | (#2026193)

I think my only problem with RedHat software is that they sometimes put Linux in a market where it is not fully understood and customers are not ready for it. Some people see RedHat or Linux (and some do not know the difference...) growing popular and they jump on the bandwagon to get those pretty RedHat boxes into their stores. While I'm definately not against mass-Linux in the marketplace, I think some merchants are confused by what RedHat Linux is and can't help their customers get aquainted with their operating system.

Okay, it seems like I'm rambling, so here's a case of what I'm talking about: When I was at my university's bookstore (you must understand that our school has almost 0 nerd presence) the other day I saw that they had ordered massive amounts of RedHat 5.2 for Sparc and Alpha. When I asked the clerk why there were no copies of it for Intel (which is all anyone uses around here), he looked at me like I'm stupid and told me "Most of our students already have Intel computers and don't need a Unix emulator for that platform."

Unix emulator, indeed. These are the same people that are supposed to be convincing people to buy the software on their shelves. I think RedHat needs to do something to educate the retail outlets about their software before they continue to flood the market, or else it could give Linux as a whole a bad name (since as far as most people know, RedHat IS Linux).

Times change... (1)

NYC (10100) | more than 15 years ago | (#2026194)

When I first installed Linux three years ago, Slackware was definetly to prominent distro. When RedHat introduced the RPM facility, people migrated over to it because it was easier. One someone comes with something better, people will switch. Why? Because switching from distro to distro is easier than switching from Windows to Linux and vice-versa. There is nothing to tie someone down.

BTW, isn't Linux all about the kernal anyways? :)

For me, I am happy with NT, SuSE and soon BeOS!

RedHat - The next tyran ? (1)

xcp (14431) | more than 15 years ago | (#2026198)

Red Hat is also $2 on the cheap cd suppliers, just no books or support. Not that I use Red Hat, I am a slackware user too.

RedHat - The next tyran ? (1)

psamara (14973) | more than 15 years ago | (#2026199)

You can buy RedHat for the same price

Red Hat is not buggy (1)

Master Switch (15115) | more than 15 years ago | (#2026201)

I have been using Red Hat and Suse for about a year now, and neither is buggy. Any of the bugs I have encountered are also found in Suse and sometimes Debian. The stuff Red Hat writes themselves is usually 100%. If not, it gets fixed quickly, and a patch is soon available.

NO WAY (1)

sherms (15634) | more than 15 years ago | (#2026202)

First of all Red Hat isn't even big enough.
Second They haven't Threatend other companies.
Third its not in there best interest.

Red Hat /= Fat Cat (1)

Telegon (16261) | more than 15 years ago | (#2026203)

While fears and concerns are necessary and just regarding Red Hat's apparent domination in linux distribution, comparisons to, even REMOTE comparisons, to Microsoft are completely uncalled for. Allow me to support my statement.
First, the obvious: Linux is not a controlled, or proprietary API. Second, there is no Billish prescence in the Red Hat camp. Third, RH's features/additional code
A: Do not corrupt the kernel
B: Is actually useable on other distros (after a few hours of CC)
C: Is available in full source on the web.
And finally, in a positive not to Red Hat, they've made Linux available in retail outlets.. where as a kid I first started my experimentations, and wasted all my allowance.
I've seen the 11 year olds in the stores carrying around 5.1. Unfludgingbelievable.

"To criticize those around you, you must be."

Linux Rules (1)

duncan (16437) | more than 15 years ago | (#2026206)

This is what Linux users say. Most Linux users want it to take over the world. Well RedHat is helping to achive this goal. I would not be using Linux right now without RedHat. I had tried over the last few years several distros and discarded them due to difficulties, mainly with installing. Finally with RH I was able to install and use Linux.

Most people in my area recommended RH to me as that is what they used, and could help me with problems. This was the same reason that years ago I went with DOS/Windows on my first computer. I knew more people that used MS software than Apple. I am sure that when a better distro becomes avalible that will take over.

I think the problem is that the hardcore users belive in the GPL. This is not a bad thing, just a conflicting thing. RH is a corporation that is making money. They put out a good product that satisfies a demand for, of all things, free software.

Yes, they may become as big as MS someday. I wish them well on the trip there. The catch here is that most Linux users don't spend money on software. I am willing to buy one of thier boxed sets for one reason: a good product. Yeah, I can download it for free, go to Cheapbytes, or WC for less money. I buy the box set to support a company that I like and would like to see continue.

If you don't like RH for one reason or another, that is for you to decide. Use something else and convince your friends to use it.

Red Hat too big --- maybe (1)

micros2 (16441) | more than 15 years ago | (#2026207)

I had an instructor in my network operating systems class (TEC 235 at Pima CC,, try to tell me that "Red Hat is Linux". I pulled out my laptop running Slackware (my favorite distribution). He still thinks that Red Hat is linux.

sick (1)

dangerboy (95056) | more than 15 years ago | (#2026211)

i'm sick of watching everything turn to RPM while tons of mindless drones download and update to a newer buggier release of whatever random package redhat distributes. i'm sick of people coming to me for every single little problem they have simply because RPMs don't fully cover their needed configs. if anything i've seen redhat and RPM's turn more people off than onto linux. after referring people to a simple slackware distribution and some howto docs, i find that they usually have a better outlook on linux in general than during their redhat experiences.
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