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Perl's Extreme Makeover

CmdrTaco posted more than 10 years ago | from the we-likes-it-don't-we-precious dept.

Perl 408

PurdueGraphicsMan writes "There's an article over at Yahoo! about the upcoming version of Perl (version 6) and some of the new features (RFC list). From the article: "Although Perl 5's expressions are the most sophisticated available and aspired to by other programming languages, "no one pretends for a moment that they're anything but hideously ugly," said Damian Conway, a core Perl developer and associate professor at Monash University in Australia.""

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GNAA --It feels good in the sphincter (-1, Troll)

gnaasympathizer (738971) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333079)

hello ghey niggaz!!!

MY ANUS CRIES OUT FOR GNU/LINUX COCK!!! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8333154)

Congratulations (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8333247)

On a fine first post. GNAA supremacy is assured, and that means homo coon jizz everywhere.

Whew, backasswards compat-with Perl 5 (4, Funny)

microbob (29155) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333087)

Good! Looks like they kept Perl5 in mind and it will flip into a special mode to execute older Perl5 code.

Nice!

-mb

This post is for those we left behind! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8333127)

Ct: Its over Johnny, its over
Jr: nothing is over nothing you just don't turn it off, it wasn't my war you asked me I didn't ask you and I did what I had to do to win but somebody wouldn't let us win and I come back to the world and I see all those maggots at the airport protesting me spittin' callin' me baby killer and all kinds of vile crap who are they to protest me huh? Who are they? Unless theve been me and been there and know what the hell theyre yellin' about.
Ct: it's a bad time for everyone Rambo, its all in the past now
Jr: for you, for me civilian life is nothing in the field we had a code of honor you watch my back ill watch yours back here that's nothing
Ct: you're the last of an elite group don't end it like this
Jr: back there I can fly a gunship, I can drive a tank, I was in charge of million dollar equipment, back here I cant even hold a job parking cars!!! Huh icant jees oh god I had a firend he was in airforce I had all these guys who were my friends back here there was nuthin'man back than this fucking car this red 58 Chevy convertible, he was talikn about his car, and he said we were going to cruise til the tires fall off we were in this bar in Saigon and this kid comes up and this kid carring this shoe shine box shine pleases shine and I said no and he kept askin and joey he said yeah and I went to get couple of beers and the box is wired and he opened up the box and fuckin blew his body all over the place and hes laying there and hes fuckin screaming and theres pieces of him all over me and I can t pull him off you know , my friend its all over me , its got blood and everything and im trying to hold him together and im put him together and he keeps coming out and nobody will help nobody helped me saying I wanna go home I wanna go home, I wanna go home and hes just calling my name Johnny I wanna drive my chevy . but why I cant find your fuckin legs I cant find the legs I cant find his legs

Perl: The Beginning (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8333106)

a ,There's been
a 0 an explosion
a /|\ at the ASCII
a | factory!!!!
a /|

Re:Perl: The Beginning (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8333125)

I'm not the person who posted that, but mr Mod, do you know what the fuck "redundant" means?

Don't use words you can't understand

Re:Perl: The Beginning (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8333153)

fair enough. That was flamebait...

Cheers!

Re:Perl: The Beginning (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8333269)

Stating harsh facts isn't flamebait. But nobody here expects the moderators to have a clue. See the travesty of a mockery of a sham exercised by ignorant moderation in the Paranoia story. Slashcode needs to severely punish incorrect moderation.

Re:Perl: The Beginning (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8333399)

actually you're right, Cheers! That first mod deserves to be crucified. It's taken 4 sane individuals get get that above +3, a process severely delayed by the original crap moderation. They deserve to be shot!

Re:Perl: The Beginning (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8333128)

Tell me your secret!

Perl Haikus (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8333114)

Okay, about 99% of the Perl Haikus will not apply anymore.

Trolling, maybe (2, Interesting)

fsterman (519061) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333115)

We might be able to actually use them in ten years or so... I do appreciate Open Source speed (done when done) and Perl is pretty complex but maybe they should have broken the upgrades into parts?

Re:Trolling, maybe (4, Insightful)

irc.goatse.cx troll (593289) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333207)

Perl5 has lasted us 10 years. If they were to do one major change a month, messing with backwards compatability in your scripts would become a major pain. This way its atleast one major headache rather than a decade long depression.

Re:Trolling, maybe (5, Informative)

rgmoore (133276) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333446)

You might be interested in Ponie, then. Ponie is the project to create a Perl5 interpreter for Parrot. It should let you get much of the speed benefit of the new virtual machine without having to learn the new Perl6 syntax. Of course you may still want to learn the new syntax, since it will add many powerful new features, but Ponie will ensure that Perl5- and all of the work you've put into your Perl5 scripts- won't be completely abandoned just because Perl6 has come out.

Hmm (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8333117)

Could somebody tell me the advantages of using the bloated Perl over such superior alternatives as Python or PHP? I mean I get the whole RegEx advantage, but what's with the goofy syntax?

We're all going to die (5, Interesting)

StuWho (748218) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333120)

"But Perl also will remain a language with the diehard developer fans who are the impetus behind its popularity. "Personally, I'm hoping to get Parrot embedded into games and office suites," Sugalski said. "I for one would love to write my word processing macros and game scripts in Perl or Forth rather than in whatever hand-rolled language someone's come up with."

Back to Pac Man and Vi then...

Hmmm (4, Interesting)

Moth7 (699815) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333226)

IIRC it's possible to write OpenOffice macros in Perl (Though it probably takes some nasty hacked API to do it). And of course, given how easy it is to embed a Perl interpretter into C apps (possibly moreso with Parrot) then there's really no reason why it can't be used for game scripts.

Re:Hmmm (5, Funny)

__past__ (542467) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333305)

it's possible to write OpenOffice macros in Perl (Though it probably takes some nasty hacked API to do it)
A nasty hacked API like, say, Perl, you mean?

Re:Hmmm (2, Funny)

Bingo Foo (179380) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333364)

It's easy really: since the OO macro language is Turing complete, you just write a perl interpreter in OO macros.

Perl touched my junk! (Lol its funny like SCO) (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8333131)

[touchedmyjunk.com]

perl touched my junk liberally. she strapped me in to her perl::mobile and she couldnt keep her offensive hands off of me. she was performing many red flag touches. i couldnt believe what the fuck was going on. i told perl the city would not approve of a programmer touching an underage kid for free.
it doesn't help at all that perl has been spun out after touching everyone's junk. she can hardly see straight after touching Pythons's diseased junk. how is she possibly going to explain this to the city when she doesnt help the next person in distress? they'll make her drop trou in front of the whole city again. there it is. the mayor just called and asked why perl hasn't responded. she has to go fuck::herself!

quick question.... (5, Funny)

thepyre (697537) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333140)

"no one pretends for a moment that they're anything but hideously ugly," Does he mean the lines of code or the programmers themselves?

Re:quick question.... (5, Funny)

gUmbi (95629) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333263)

Yes.

18 months away... (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8333141)

mmmm...thanks for sharing?

Expressions .. (4, Insightful)

Billly Gates (198444) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333148)

.. is why I prefer python over perl. The resulting code is soo much cleaner.

I suppose it has to do with the old debate of losely or strict typed langauges. Perl is highly modular but I would hate to work in a team of 10 or more perl developers all writing in their own styles and methods. Shudder.

Yahoo decided to support php rather then perl in their next generation yahoo services specificially because of "There is more then one way to do it".

Of course its all being outsourced to India now where they can just hire more developers if complex problems arrise

Re:Expressions .. (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8333211)


Ditto, but why waste so much space? It can be simply said that Perl sux and Python rocks!!!!!

Re:Expressions .. (5, Insightful)

Xzzy (111297) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333257)

> .. is why I prefer python over perl. The resulting code is soo much cleaner.

Yes but you have to admit that perl has a certain charm about it.

Haven't you ever sat there staring at a subroutine, thinking to yourself "man I sure wish I could just hold shift and slide my finger over the number row to get this done"? Then gone on and painstakingly crafted what you wanted to do in whatever strict language you were actually working in? ;)

Maybe it's just me. But every time I sit down and promise myself to write a new script all tidy and clean in python, about five minutes into it I'm muttering "if this were perl I coulda been DONE by now" and quickly revert back to old faithful.

Re:Expressions .. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8333297)


You are a moron. There is nothing charming about Perl. Some of the worst code I have ever seen has been written in Perl. Python enforces clarity and therefore makes morons like you write clear code.

Re:Expressions .. (4, Insightful)

kfg (145172) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333398)

Yes, but the flip side comes only a day later, when I sit down at my Python code and immediately start editing.

Whereas I look at my Perl code for about an hour and a half thinking, "Ummmmmmm, what the fuck is this supposed to mean?

Not that either of them have a patch on APL, mind you. APL Roolz.

KFG

Re:Expressions .. (1, Troll)

zeroclip (700917) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333441)

"Ummmmmmm, what the fuck is this supposed to mean?

This is only true for newbies. Experienced programmes in any language can figure what stuff means, even if they looking at code they dident write themselvs.

Re:Expressions .. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8333463)

Then I would say you have very poor programming techniques.

Re:Expressions .. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8333338)

The thing about Perl is, it not only gives you enough rope to hang yourself with but also cheerfully builds you the gallows.

It is absolute possible to write clean and elegant Perl code, but the dicipline to do so has to come from the programmer and is not inherent in the language. Perl's flexibility is both it's greatest strength and greatest weakness.

The Parrot Engine? (2, Insightful)

blcamp (211756) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333150)


Will that make Perl 6 coders a different kind of "Parrot Head"?

Re:The Parrot Engine? (0)

Jackdaw Rookery (696327) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333267)

No but it might make them dead.

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/~ebarnes/python/dead-pa rr ot.htm

I like perl, it offers a flexability that other languages don't seem to have imo and it hasn't killed the cpu *that* badly.

Re:The Parrot Vaporware Engine? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8333283)

Will it ever run Perl 6? What year?
Don't hold your breath.

Python !!!! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8333152)


Why even bother with Perl anymore? Python is a much more superior language. Object oriented programming was thought of from the beginning of Python, whereas, in Perl it was an afterthought. I could go on and on with comparisons like these, but why even waste my time. Python is like a house that was well blueprinted and then constructed. Perl is built like a house without blueprints and modified as the construction is ongoing, except in order to patch a leaky roof a wall gives out and then it also has to be fixed. A never ending mess.

Ruby... (1, Interesting)

Tyler Eaves (344284) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333157)

...provides almost all of Perls power, with none of the ugliness.

Re:Ruby... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8333231)

And none of the pervasiveness.

Perl is installed everywhere [by default] and known by everyone [not literally]. Ruby is making great headway in both those arenas, but is not there yet.

No, Python (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8333331)

Ruby? I think you mean Python. Python has all of the power of Ruby with a much much larger developer base.

And if you can't get past "the whitespace" thing in Python, then that's too bad; be an Ruby-using elitist.

Now, without further ado:

Python! -- Tastes Great!
Ruby! -- Less Filling!
Python! -- Tastes Great!
Ruby! -- Less Filling!
Python! -- Tastes Great!
Ruby! -- Less Filling!
Java! -- Job Security!
...

Re:No, Python (5, Funny)

perlchimp (263475) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333408)

Java! -- Job Security!

I am the lead developer on a 200K line commercial bioinformatics program written in Perl. That's job security.

Re:No, Python (2, Interesting)

Tyler Eaves (344284) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333427)

I used to use python a lot. Still do, really. I like it a lot.
I just like ruby more. I find it easier to learn, even faster to code in, and language development is just as fast, if not faster than python.

Re:Ruby... (5, Insightful)

vt0asta (16536) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333334)

...provides almost all of Perls power, with none of the ugliness... [emphasis mine]

...or the online documentation, the unit testing facilities, the CPAN repositories, the portablility, or the developer community.

Sorry, but you had missed some things that Ruby has none of compared to Perl.

Re:Ruby... (4, Informative)

Tyler Eaves (344284) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333407)

You mean like:

Doc

http://www.ruby-doc.org/ [ruby-doc.org]

http://www.rubycentral.com/book/ [rubycentral.com]

Unit Testing

http://testunit.talbott.ws/ [talbott.ws]

http://www.rubygarden.org/ruby?RubyUnit [rubygarden.org]

Library Repository

http://raa.ruby-lang.org/ [ruby-lang.org]

Portability
Source compiles on anything vaugely Unix like

Windows binaries available

User Community
comp.lang.ruby [lang.ruby]

So, what were you on about again?

Re:Ruby... (0, Offtopic)

kfg (145172) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333471)

Squeak! Squeak!

KFG

What everyone knows about perl (5, Funny)

HappyCitizen (742844) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333158)



Unreadable code,
Why would anyone use it?
Learn a better way.

ugliness that grows
into beauty inside of
your favorite shell

Arbitrarily
Nested structures for data;
Joy of birds in flight.

As with the spring rain
Perl is indispensable
Unquestionable

http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Perl/Haiku/Abou tP erl

Perl touched my junk (NOT OFFTOPIC! Mod properly!) (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8333175)

[touchedmyjunk.com]
perl touched my junk liberally. she strapped me in to her perl::mobile and she couldnt keep her offensive hands off of me. she was performing many red flag touches. i couldnt believe what the fuck was going on. i told perl the city would not approve of a programmer touching an underage kid for free.
it doesn't help at all that perl has been spun out after touching everyone's junk. she can hardly see straight after touching Pythons's diseased junk. how is she possibly going to explain this to the city when she doesnt help the next person in distress? they'll make her drop trou in front of the whole city again. there it is. the mayor just called and asked why perl hasn't responded. she has to go fuck::herself!

Anyone who intimately knows 5 (4, Interesting)

devphaeton (695736) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333181)

...would be able to tell me if i should

a) start learning 5 anyways

or

b) wait till 6 is released, because going from barely having a grasp on 5 and then trying to learn 6 would just confuse myself?

i realise that all the perl5 code in the world won't suddenly cease function the minute perl6 is released, but still..

I can see the value in perl, and what a great tool it is, but for some reason i have a hard time wrapping my lil brain around it. It's a bit less "structured" or "consistent" than say C is. I suppose it has to be that way in order to do what it does, though.

Re:Anyone who intimately knows 5 (5, Interesting)

smack_attack (171144) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333236)

Learn 5, because it will probably take a few months until 6 is standard. Either way, in a few years you will look back on whatever you coded today and shake your head in shame. /used to printf() every line when he learned PHP

Re:Anyone who intimately knows 5 (3, Insightful)

deja206 (711205) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333303)

As a Perl 5 programmer, I don't think Perl 6 will be all that good.

Not everyone will switch immediately, and not everyone will need/want to switch anyway.

I say go on and learn Perl 5, you won't regret it...

Re:Anyone who intimately knows 5 (5, Informative)

psycho_tinman (313601) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333325)

I cannot claim to intimately know Perl 5, but I started learning it a few years back. I belong to the camp of Perl programmers (and I know there are a few of these) who are adopting a "wait and see" attitude to Perl 6.

If you're interested in learning Perl now, you should probably go for the cookbook approach, ie: get a copy of OReilly's Perl cookbook and just try applying the solution to your problem. Then, trying tweaking and figuring out how it works.

As for learning Perl 5, I'd probably point out that there are still some places that run 5.005_03 (certainly Solaris used to ship with that version by default), and that version is at LEAST 5-6 years old :) There are even some places I've heard of that run Perl 4 :) So, I think there is plenty of time to have your investment in learning Perl pay off before people start switching to Perl 6 en masse.

Re:Anyone who intimately knows 5 (5, Informative)

Telastyn (206146) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333359)

Personally, I found that perl was kind of odd and not fantastic until I learned perl with regexes [via O'Reilly's Mastering Regular Expressions, highly recommended]. Then alot of the little nuances made alot more sense. Alot of the examples in that book were things perl does easily in a few lines, but would cause most programmers to gouge their eyes out if they needed to do it in C.

Re:Anyone who intimately knows 5 (3, Insightful)

amplt1337 (707922) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333385)

It's all going to depend on how much they change the syntax, which Yahoo!!!!!111! doesn't seem to be providing us with right now. (I'm sure if I were on a perl list I'd hear more about it.)

Personally what I'd recommend (as a full-time perl programmer) is to learn 5 anyway. It'll take two or three years before the next edition of the Llama (O'Reilly, _Learning_Perl_, look it up your own darn self on Amazon if you must) is out, and in the meantime you can get out of the baby-talk phase this way. Learn regular expressions thoroughly, absolutely thoroughly, backwards and forwards, even if you won't need to use most of the complex stuff -- you'll wind up using it sooner or later, and if you know if cold, then you've got better odds of remembering something obscure when you need it. [Caveat: apparently regexes are a big part of the language changes. So learn the Perl 5 regex engine as thoroughly as you can, and then compare and contrast with this rundown [rit.edu] on the new stuff.]

Obviously core language features aren't likely to go anywhere, and you won't be wasting your time learning them. And you'd be amazed at what even a couple of months will do for your language maturity.

Start now. No sense putting it off.

Re:Anyone who intimately knows 5 (5, Insightful)

ChaosDiscord (4913) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333387)

start learning 5 anyways or ... wait till 6 is released

Learn Perl right now because it will make your life better (assuming your life can be made better by a powerful scripting language/glue-layer from heck). Perl 6 is still far off on the horizon and Perl 5 knowledge will largely transfer to Perl 6.

I can see the value in perl, and what a great tool it is, but for some reason i have a hard time wrapping my lil brain around it. It's a bit less "structured" or "consistent" than say C is.

I think that setting out to learn Perl for its own sake will generally not work. One of Perl's strengths is that it grows with you and your needs. Learn a little bit of Perl and you still solve some very useful problems. For example, many people first learned Perl to do some quick-and-dirty projects like one-off data file reformatting, internal report generation, or simple CGI scripting. Learn more as you need it. It's taken me years to get to the point where I might call myself a skilled Perl hacker. But every step along the way was pleasant. I never felt I was learning stuff for the sake of learning stuff; I was always learning something that made my goals right now easier to achieve.

Perl is about serving you, not you serving it.

Re:Anyone who intimately knows 5 (1)

hpavc (129350) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333422)

Your going to wait a long time for perl6 you could learn both

Re:Anyone who intimately knows 5 (3, Informative)

cliveholloway (132299) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333449)

Start now. It's gonna be a while before six is out - and even longer before companies will trust it in production environments.

And come over to The Monastery to get help when needed. A great resource for new (and experienced!) Perl hackers. [perlmonks.org]

.02

cLive ;-)

Learn 5 first (2, Informative)

Captain Tripps (13561) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333458)

It's a safe bet that it'll be at least 18 months to a stable release for 6, and even longer before it gets significant adoption. From what I've read in the Apocalyses, the core part of the language will remain the same. (One of the goals for the redesign is "Perl should stay Perl.") Much of the new stuff is either extensions to the existing language or redesigns of advanced features like OO. Even for regular expressions, which have seen the most changes so far, Larry has emphasized that existing code can be adapted rather than rewritten.

Finally, remember that most other Perl programmers will be in the same boat as you are in learning the new language, so Perl 5 should remain well supported for some time to come.

Who would have thought! (5, Funny)

Saeed al-Sahaf (665390) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333184)

"hideously ugly" and "Perl" in the same paragraph? Who would have thought!

Perl6? Try Ruby... (0, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8333187)

Perl 6 is *insane* .. the kind of thing that is either the work of a genius or
a madman. Or both.

I used to really like Perl, but these days I'm writing bigger and bigger
programs using interpreted languages. Perl is *really* getting on my nerves.
I'm not waiting for Perl 6, I'm writing all new code in Ruby (or Python if
Ruby doesn't have the needed 3rd-party libraries).

Ruby is what Perl *should've* been, and what Python will be in a couple more
versions (it got popular before they finished designing it, it seems).

I'm sure Perl 6 will be like getting a blow job from Larry Wall himself, but
I've had enough of Perl's community and their "cleverness". I want languages
that help me write programs, not that are good for writing haiku in.

However there are two things I"m looking forward to: 1) better regular
expression syntax .. I'm sick of "(?:..)" and other confusing add-ons.. and 2)
a common runtime between perl, python, and ruby, that way I can use all sorts
of libraries in my code, no matter what the language I happen to be using.

Re:Perl6? Try Ruby... (-1, Flamebait)

kin_korn_karn (466864) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333253)

I'm sure Perl 6 will be like getting a blow job from Larry Wall himself, but
I've had enough of Perl's community and their "cleverness". I want languages
that help me write programs, not that are good for writing haiku in.

First of all, I've only been married for 6 months so my wife still gives BJs, so I don't need one from Wall. The mustache would itch anyway.

But you're dead fucking on about how the Perl community has focused on total bullshit and playing with the language rather than practical improvements.

People like to say that that sort of experimentation shows innovation but if the experimenters don't work for anyone influential it's all just mental masturbation.

Re:Perl6? Try Ruby... (0, Troll)

kin_korn_karn (466864) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333395)

flamebait? I'm a fan of perl, and I hate how it's gone in the shitter. I'm sorry I insulted your girlfriend, but remember, I get mod points too..

Re:Perl6? Try Ruby... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8333481)

Having actually been lectured by Damien Conway at Monash.. I would have to say he is a combination fo both Genius and Madman..
The best lecturer at the Uni but boy does he know a lot about a lot of things and gets off topic very easily :)

Slashdotted. Here's the text (5, Funny)

Bingo Foo (179380) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333188)

Since the article is slashdotted, I have reprinted the text below:

$_

Re:Slashdotted. Here's the text (1)

deja206 (711205) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333329)

Too bad I've used all my MOD points, mod parent UP! =)

Re:Slashdotted. Here's the text (1)

WinterSolstice (223271) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333333)

Well, currently it is $!

-WS

Re:Slashdotted. Here's the text (1)

TheLinuxSRC (683475) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333367)

LOL!!!!!

Re:Slashdotted. Here's the text (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8333420)

Can anybody fill us in on the joke?

Re:Slashdotted. Here's the text (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8333477)

Can anybody fill us in on the joke?

TFM [perldoc.com] can.

Why was Perl5 so Popular? (4, Interesting)

use_compress (627082) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333194)

With such bloated and obscure syntax in both the language and regular expressions, why do you think Perl 5 has become so popular? Once you've written a few programs in it, it is ULTRA EASY, ULTRA FAST and not hard to remember. An experienced Perl programmer could probablyl do almost any text processing task in a third of what it would take an expert C++ programmer to do. All of the bloat and lack of orthogonality and "bad design" paradoxically makes Perl 5 a fantastic language to program. I hope Wall doesn't mess this up...

Re:Why was Perl5 so Popular? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8333341)

Wall won't mess it up don't worry. I've been lurking on Perl 6 lists and ocassionally adding a dime for almost 18 months. What people misunderstand about Perl is that it is a rather hybrid ad-hoc and over inclusive language by its nature. In many ways it's like Linux and OSS in general, it's diverse deep and wide, has a long pedigree which itself inherits from a rich history of shell and Unix syntax. Most of what is going on in 6 is reconciling and consolidating some of this ugly middle age spread. It is the Borg of all languages. As an 'expert' C programmer I took to Perl very nicely. It is a working mans language. Something you use to _get_the_job_done_. And there's always more than one way to do it :)

Eventually you will all grow to love your new Perl 6 overlords. You will be assimilated.

Re:Why was Perl5 so Popular? (2, Insightful)

deja206 (711205) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333374)

AGREED.

Actually, after using languages like Perl, PHP & Python, I started to question the reason why we need binaries.

P.S. I'm yet to try out Ruby.

Too many cooks (4, Interesting)

ObviousGuy (578567) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333212)

While no one would ever accuse Perl of being single minded and focused, until Perl5 it was a fairly coherent language.

I understand that Perl6 is supposedly an evolution of the language, but there are so many suggestions for so many features and changes that the language itself seems to suffer from the too many cooks problem. With everyone and their brother suggesting features, the language itself becomes a mish mash of these features without a central theme tying it all together. Even if you said that DWIM was the central theme, can you really justify that when WIM is not what the language does because the feature that I'm using was designed by someone who had a completely different idea of what he meant?

In the past Perl has added functionality that was useful and you can see where the language has its partitions. Base Perl (datatypes, simple arithmetic, simple string manipulation), nested datastructures, regexes, OO, and so on. While admittedly a mess, each addition to the language brought more power and ease. Perl6, OTOH, seems to be adding feature after feature without regard to whether it makes the language easier to use, only more powerful.

So you end up with a new interpreter that won't run your old scripts without modifying the scripts. At the very least it should automatically default to Perl5 syntax unless otherwise told to use Perl6 syntax. Unfortunately, in the push to evolve, Larry and Damian (and the rest of the lunatics) have foregone automatic backwards compatibility.

I'll probably migrate, but not for a while.

GNAA Newsletter (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8333233)

SCO acquires a new business partner - GNAA

Darl here, with another fine Fr1st P0st. After all -- SCO did everything first, and the rest of the responses to this story will owe their heritage to a foundation built on SCO's staff of talented programmers.

You may be wondering why SCO salesmen are not answering your numerous calls while you try to order more SCO licenses. Well, we aren't answering the phones because we're too busy celebrating our newest business partner. Rather than explaining it myself, I'll let our formal press release do the talking. Take it away, Mr. Reuters...

LINDON, Utah, Sept. 8/PRNewswire - FirstCall/ -- The SCO Group, Inc. (Nasdaq: SCOX [yahoo.com] - News [yahoo.com] ), the owner and licensor of the core UNIX operating system source code, today announced its second Fortune 500 clent for the SCO Linux IP license, the GNAA (Nasdaq: RHAT [yahoo.com] - News [yahoo.com] ), developer of fine Slashdot trolls on irc.efnet.net #GNAA, also well-known for revolutionizing small business development with its "Step 2: ??????" profit model. The availability of the SCO Intellectual Property License for Linux affords Linux deployments to come into compliance with international law for the use of all 2.4 and future kernels. The run-time license permits the use of SCO's intellectual property, in binary form only, as contained in Linux distributions.

By purchasing a SCO Intellectual Property License, customers avoid infringement of SCO's intellectual property rights in Linux 2.4 and Linux 2.5 kernels and assure Darl financial security for the purchase of his second home. Because the SCO license authorizes run-time use only, customers also comply with the General Public License, under which Linux is distributed. Source may still be distributed under the terms of the GPL, however source distributors are held accountable for all violation of SCO's IP. Indemnification is provided for customers of runtime clients only. Read that twice, dirty hippy. You're not in the clear yet.

GNAA spokesperson penisbird said of the licensure, "coming into compliance affords us a new competitive advantage with the other Slashdot authors. By being in the right, we can thumb down our noses at not only the Windows users and the BSD-thieving Mac Users, but also the unwashed Linux hippies running stolen code on their parents' PCs." VP of anus enlargement goat-see added, "fr1st p0st? damn i miss. how do i next story?"

Mr. Darl McBride concurred with GNAA's analysis, adding "We soon hope to convince additional clients such as Trollklore and Cabal of Logged In Trolls of the benefits of licensing SCO's valuable IP. Also, I <3 GNAA bunny. (@.@)" JesuitX clarified the nature of the SCO and GNAA alliance, adding "We're more than just a licensing client. We're also going to be helping to bring these other potential licensors into compliance. We can break them in little by little as paying sublicensors. The alternative is pretty horrible. Our lawyers can take a reticent client from virgin to hello.jpg [figure 2 [yahoo.com] ] in under an hour, and believe me -- it is not pleasant."

Commander Taco was unavailable for comment, however Cowboy Kneel was said to ask for a print of [figure 2] for his basement apartment. Simoniker remained British and unable to spell "color," while Timothy responded by posting the same story six times, and Hemos reposted a seventh time, the submission differing only from his application of that damned Einstein icon.

If you have mod points and would like to support GNAA, please moderate this post up.

________________________________________________
| ______________________________________._a,____ |
| _______a_._______a_______aj#0s_____aWY!400.___ |
| __ad#7!!*P____a.d#0a____#!-_#0i___.#!__W#0#___ |
| _j#'_.00#,___4#dP_"#,__j#,__0#Wi___*00P!_"#L,_ |
| _"#ga#9!01___"#01__40,_"4Lj#!_4#g_________"01_ |
| ________"#,___*@`__-N#____`___-!^_____________ |
| _________#1__________?________________________ |
| _________j1___________________________________ |
| ____a,___jk_GAY_NIGGER_ASSOCIATION_OF_AMERICA_ |
| ____!4yaa#l___________________________________ |
| ______-"!^____________________________________ |
` _______________________________________________'

From the horse's mouth (5, Informative)

ChaosDiscord (4913) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333235)

If you want the real scoop on the on-going planning of Perl 6, you might want to check out Larry Wall's Apocalypse articles: 1 [perl.com] , 2 [perl.com] , 3 [perl.com] , 4 [perl.com] , 5 [perl.com] , 6 [perl.com] . On the down side, they are dense. Very dense. For that reason, I actually recommend Daimon Conway's Exegesis articles: 2 [perl.com] , 3 [perl.com] , 4 [perl.com] , 5 [perl.com] , 6 [perl.com] . They provide alot more context on what the changes actually mean to you and why they're good.

Perl touched my junk! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8333270)

Note to retarded moderators, this is NOT offtopic. It may be troll, funny or even insightful, but its not offtopic! Perl is a pervert and must be known to be one!

[touchedmyjunk.com]
perl touched my junk liberally. she strapped me in to her perl::mobile and she couldnt keep her offensive hands off of me. she was performing many red flag touches. i couldnt believe what the fuck was going on. i told perl the city would not approve of a programmer touching an underage kid for free.
it doesn't help at all that perl has been spun out after touching everyone's junk. she can hardly see straight after touching Pythons's diseased junk. how is she possibly going to explain this to the city when she doesnt help the next person in distress? they'll make her drop trou in front of the whole city again. there it is. the mayor just called and asked why perl hasn't responded. she has to go fuck::herself!

A picture worth 1000 words (5, Funny)

Nugget (7382) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333274)

This pic says it all [bewilders.us]

Re:A picture worth 1000 words (3, Interesting)

ChaosDiscord (4913) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333448)

Heh. Still, it's worth noting that this isn't new to Perl 6. Perl's always been a Chimera. Quoth the Perl man page (as it has as long as I can remember), "Perl combines (in the author's opinion, anyway) some of the best features of C, sed, awk, and sh, so people famil- iar with those languages should have little difficulty with it. (Language historians will also note some ves- tiges of csh, Pascal, and even BASIC-PLUS.)" As for why being a freakish blend and a giant mess is actually a feature, I suggest checking out Larry Wall's Second State of the Onion [perl.com] . (It's a long page, but the stuff on the advantages of complexity is all near the top.)

why rev a language ? (2, Insightful)

ehack (115197) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333279)

Exactly why does a properly designed language need core revisions every year ? I thought that was what libraries were for!

Re:why rev a language ? (5, Interesting)

furry_marmot (515771) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333363)

Because it's a high-level language with lots of sytactic sugar that made a whole new level of flexibility in programming. You can be loose, sloppy, tight, properly formatted, or write one-liners with equal ease.

I agree with the main topic that other languages aspired to its expressiveness. The problem, from the point of view of a Perl hacker like me, is that some of them have actually outdone it, primarily by creating similar power, expressiveness, and simplicity but without being so ugly *and* being OO. Ruby and Python are pretty much the motivators for the upgrade.

Re:why rev a language ? (2, Informative)

J-Worthington (745904) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333434)

Maybe I'm missing your point, but Perl certainly isn't having core revisions every year in terms of the language. Perl5 has been around for about 10 years now, and will probably still be pretty widespread in another 5 years. 15+ years isn't a really bad lifetime for a langauge, and it isn't like there are no plans to continue support for Perl5 code. Indeed, they are currently re-implementing Perl5 on top of the Parrot engine, so Perl5 and Perl6 code will be able to interact. This means systems can gradually move from Perl5 to Perl6 if they need to, without needing a full re-write.

Three cheers for Perl! (4, Insightful)

Chuck Bucket (142633) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333296)

Why do we use Perl every day? Because Perl scales to solve both small and large problems. Unlike languages like C, C++, and Java, Perl allows us to write small, trivial programs quickly and easily, without sacrificing the ability to build large applications and systems. The skills and tools we use on large projects are also available when we write small programs.

I'm not a Perl hacker by any means, but after the possibilities are endless, and I don't think Perl will ever die.

CB

Re:Three cheers for Perl! (5, Insightful)

mortenmo (95589) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333410)

But why would you want a language that can solve both small and large problems? Why not use a good language to solve "small problems" for "small problems", and a good language to solve "large problems" for "large problems"?

Of course, I would probably argue that Perl cannot solve "large problems" after creating 100k+ line Perl applications. The problem lies that the reason languages like Perl is good for quick and dirty hacks is just the reason they are not that good for large systems that needs to be maintained over longer periods of time with many developers involved.

Perlman (1)

Michael.Forman (169981) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333302)


I've been waiting with great anticipation for the new perl release for years, having picked it up, while I was a systems adminstrator for Unixops [colorado.edu] at the University of Colorado. I've since been living and breathing perl, whether it's via Mason in the perl scripts that run my website [michael-forman.com] , as an aid to data analysis in my research, or for one of the many command-line scripts [michael-forman.com] I've written over the years.

My current favorite is ren-regexp [michael-forman.com] , a utility which allows the renaming of many files on the command line using one or more regular expressions. I look forward to rewriting it with the future additions and modifications to regular expression in Perl 6.

Michael. [michael-forman.com]

DOES MAKEOVER INCLUDE PERL NECKLACE? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8333311)


Parrot embedded in a message thread (2, Funny)

AubieTurtle (743744) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333315)

(perl[6] == "Great") || die;

argh (0, Redundant)

angrylinuxgeek (748542) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333323)

and I just learned Perl in class last semester. dammit.

Ugly code (4, Funny)

mr100percent (57156) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333335)

Neo: Do you always look at it heavily encrypted?
Cypher: Oh that's not encryption... It's a new Perl script I'm working on...

The Matrix Bastardization [detonate.net] .

Why I like Perl. (-1, Redundant)

Shut the fuck up! (572058) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333336)

I find Perl to be very practical for extracting and reporting text.

Quite possibly very naive question from a non-perl (4, Interesting)

FatRatBastard (7583) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333352)

user...

Is Parrot something akin to the JVM / .NET runtime engine? If so is the plan for it to be as robust as the JVM / .NET runtime: i.e. could the same type of applications that people are building for Java / .NET be just as easily built with Parrot?

If I'm reading all of this right Parrot may well become everything Sun wants Java to become / MS wants .NET to become without the "what are those bastards going to do to the platform" stench.

Of course, if I have the wrong end of the stick here I apologise. Perl isn't my strong suit.

This parrot ain't dead (2, Interesting)

x3ro (628101) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333355)

I'm amused to see that the name 'Parrot', originally coined for an April Fool's joke [oreilly.com] over at O'Reilly, has now been used to christen the bytecode interpreter for Perl 6. Life imitating art I guess.

As for the 'extreme makeover' ... I hope it loses a bit of the excessive punctuation ...

$broken ? fix($it) : s/!@#\$%\^\*//g if $ugly >= $all_hell;

I hope they don't ruin a good thing (1, Interesting)

1iar_parad0x (676662) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333365)

Programming with regex in a high-level language is going to be odd no matter the syntax. First-Order Logic is odd. The lambda calculus looks odd. LISP looks odd. Languages that are based on fundamental symbolic operations look odd.

these regular expressions were not "powerful enough for many data-parsing tasks

I will be the first to applaud Larry Wall and the Perl developers if they can clean up regex. However, I feel tinkering with a notoriously complex thing may make it worse. Or at best, may make more of an ugly thing. What we don't need is the new unreadable way and the old unreadable way of creating regexes. What fun it will be to debug code.

Frankly, how can you increase the power of regex and minimize the complexity of code. If you make regexes more powerful, you might as well make another high-level language for text processing. Let's hope they can pull it off.

Frankly, I for one like the power of Perl's regexes and I hope they succeed.

Maybe OT but I don't get it... (5, Insightful)

mkaltner (555433) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333373)

Why does everyone say perl syntax is so damned ugly? Appearantly, they haven't seen C code written by someone with a "I'm a C God - Complex". I agree with some of the other posts here, it's only ugly if you have never used the language before. Write yourself a script or two and you quickly catch on.

In fact, it's just like ANY other language (programming or spoken at that), it looks foriegn (go figure) until you put a little effort into it and figure it out.

JM2C

- Mike

OH NO! (1)

jbrader (697703) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333390)

Does this spell the end of bad perl syntax jokes???

"Initial construction of the Internet" (4, Informative)

Repton (60818) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333413)

Perl, a high-level programming language that was critical in the initial construction of the Internet, ...

Perl was first released in 1987 [perl.org] . Y'know, I could've sworn the internet already existed back then...

(especially since Perl was released in a post to alt.sources)

WOw! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8333428)

Perl like that?

That sroucks, dude!

well, duh! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8333472)

It's something in between 'rocks' and 'sucks', and maybe even both at the same time. Because some things, even when they rock, suck.

But you need srouckness to get that.

PERL SUCKS (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8333447)

And everyone here knows it. I just took over support for some perl code and the stuff is shit. It would have been shit in any language but because it's perl it's extra shitty.

Larry, please hurry (4, Insightful)

Ars-Fartsica (166957) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333483)

The first Apocalypse was published in 2001. It is now 2004 and we are patient but perl 6 is starting to smell like vapor.

Larry, you need to get an alpha out in 2004 (even if all of the Apocalypses have not been published) or I think you are going to see people lose interest in perl 6. In the time between Apocalypse 1 and today, the mono team have basically cranked out an entire development environment of excellent quality.

Signed, an eight year perl programmer and major fan.

python & ruby are fine,but they lack {}'s and (1)

GodWasAnAlien (206300) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333484)

I don't like indentation mandated by the language.

for the naysayers.. (5, Informative)

psycho_tinman (313601) | more than 10 years ago | (#8333486)

A few points to ponder ..

You've all heard the "you can write unreadable code in any programming language" argument, so I'll spare you the repetition.. (No, wait.. I didn't, did I? ) *grin*

But also bear in mind that Perl is the first language that I know of that used the foreach construct in the same form as the more sought after languages.. Java has iterators and enumerators, but they introduced a foreach because it is darn easy to understand.

Perl innovated in regular expressions. Even Jeffery Friedl's Mastering Regex (sic) says that other languages aspire to be called "Perl 5 compatible" when they don't necessarily support all the features of Perl 5.6". Love it or hate it, regular expressions are like the microwave in your kitchen. Once you get used to it, it's darn hard to manage without :)

I am not going to go into Perl 6 the moment it is released. But I guess that's ok, because I didn't adopt 5.8 the day it was released either. I just think that Larry Wall has made enough good calls in the language so far, to be worth trusting him for another version. Even one that promises to break some of the idioms that I am accustomed to in it's present incarnation. Hey, I didn't like Perl 5 when I first saw it either, but I notice the difference in my productivity when I got the hang of things.

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