Viet Dinh Defends The Patriot Act 817
Grrr writes "Wired News has posted an interview with Viet Dinh, who worked on the PATRIOT Act for the Justice Department. In the past he said, "Security without liberty - it's not an America I would want to live in." And also, in this interview, "I think right now at this time and this place the greatest threat to American liberty comes from al-Qaida and their sympathizers rather than from the men and women of law enforcement and national security who seek to defend America and her people against that threat." Several of his replies are (predictably / necessarily / discouragingly) less than direct."
His name is Viet Dinh (Score:3, Funny)
Re:His name is Viet Dinh (Score:3, Troll)
Re:His name is Viet Dinh (Score:5, Insightful)
That post is ignorant at best, but more likely just racist.
Offensive, possibly. But racist, no. Racist would be that joke applied to a someone of Korean descent, as Koreans have little to do with the Viet Cong but happen to be ethnically related (very broadly) to Vietnamese. Would it be racist to make a "Heil Hitler" joke about a German? And if so, how about a Swede? I realize it's a lost cause, but I just wish the word "racism" were used more accurately rather than as a blanket term for "based on stereotypes".
And to characterize the joke as "ignorant" is also an absurd misuse of the term. I can't imagine that anyone who knows the signifance of the term "Charlie" in relation to Vietnam (and thus understands the joke) would confuse a 35-year-old first-generation immigrant Vietnamese American with a communist guerilla.
It was a silly, offensive joke based on cultural stereotypes. Just leave it at that. And just for the record, I'm a bit of an aficionado of Vietnamese culture, I'm part Asian, and I thought it was funny. (Though I would never repeat it in front of a Vietnamese person.)
Sometimes, people who fled totalitarian countries are the most ardent supporters of American freedoms. I can't read into the heart and mind of Viet Dinh, but your post is contemptible.
Unfortunately, such people aren't immune to engaging in the same mindset they sought to flee: Little Saigon, 1999 [uci.edu] And the Cuban refuguee community in Florida isn't much better behaved, in my opinion.
Re:His name is Viet Dinh (Score:5, Insightful)
Your definition of "race" must be different from mine. I don't consider German or American or German-American or Swedish or Vietnamese to be races. Racism would be making a Viet Cong joke about someone solely because he has black hair, thin eyes, a flat nose, and whatever physical attributes associated with people from East Asia. The connection between a Vietnamese and communist guerillas, or between a German and Hitler is historical, not ethnic. That's the point I'm trying to make. And the reason I'm doing so is that "racism" has become the politically-correct catch-all blanket condemnatory term for any sort of discrimination, and used inaccurately.
Yes, it would be both ignorant and racist to make a Hitler joke about a Swede. The Swedes have been non-aligned for a long time.
It would be ignorant certainly, because a Swede has no unique connection, ethnically or historically, with Hitler. For it to be racist, the teller would have to draw a link from blond hair and blue eyes, to Germany, to Hitler. That's beyond ignorant, it's simply stupid. And Sweden's policitical history is totally irrelevant to anything at ll.
I stated clearly in my previous post that the joke can indeed be characterized as offensive, in its use of stereotypes about Vietnamese. That's why I wouldn't tell it to a Vietnamese. As for "hatefulness", that's another glib assertion. I thought the joke was funny, yet I know I am not hateful towards Vietnamese.
Re:His name is Viet Dinh (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh brother. It's a joke. Anybody without a strong, direct connection to the Vietnam War really has no grounds to be offended. Half the people here are probably either a) two young to get it or b) too ignorant of history to get it.
If you really are one of those people that's offended, that's fine. But rather than waste everyone else's time, just smile, shut up, and have a coke. You can't live your life running around pointing and shrieking like a schoolgirl all the time.
Great... now I probably offended some psycho feminist chick with the schoolgirl crack. And I probably offended a lesbian with the feminist crack. Oh shit.. now I really done did it...
already lost (Score:5, Insightful)
now not only people are terrorized by terrorists for physical dangers, they're also terrorized by their own government for privacy invasion.
The greatest threat to my liberty... (Score:5, Insightful)
Planes aren't being hijacked because we stop the dreaded nail clipper from coming on board.
Re:The greatest threat to my liberty... (Score:5, Insightful)
Republicans have control of the Executive, Legislative and if we examine the 2000 elections, the Judicial branches of the government.
The Red states far outnumber the Blue states, so popular vote becomes a moot point in future elections as the electoral advantage is seded to the Republicans.
You have to ask yourself. Is it really the government in the wrong here or is this an expression of the People's Will ?
You might be scared to learn the answer.
Re:The greatest threat to my liberty... (Score:5, Informative)
Basically, what I'm saying is that neither party has been particularly good on matters of personal liberties and the right to privacy. The Republicans are just a lot more blatant about their intentions than the Democrats. And the Republicans tend to go a little farther and push a little harder than the Democrats do.
Just keeping this debate honest...
Re:The greatest threat to my liberty... (Score:4, Insightful)
It doesn't and it hasn't.
But this is a good thing. It gives hope to those who refuse to wallow in an air of defeatism and understand that any current transgressions need only be temporary.
Remember, the Patriot Act is nothing more than legislation. It can be repealed or written out of the books very easily. But it's going ot take a lot of minds changing before we muster enough Political Will to start that ball rolling. It's not impossible. It's probably just a matter of time.
100 years prior to Suffrage most people thought it was ridiculous to give women the right to vote. As a people, we learned that liberty cannot exist when we disenfranchise half our population. I suspect a similar conciousness will develop and we'll look back at the Patriot Act as a curious by-product of this era.
Re:The greatest threat to my liberty... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:The greatest threat to my liberty... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:The greatest threat to my liberty... (Score:5, Insightful)
I can't see how you can look at Bush and Gore and say there's no difference. For starters, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be in Iraq if Gore were President.
I like the how Tom Tomorrow [thismodernworld.com] put it:
Re:The greatest threat to my liberty... (Score:5, Interesting)
Let's set the hyperbole aside for a minute. I'd be willing to bet that our response to 9/11 would have been identical if Gore'd been President.
There might still have been something *like* the PATRIOT act, although it would probably be less extreme.
The 9/11 Commission probably wouldn't have gotten much farther than it has under Bush -- all the same CYA interests would be involved.
We wouldn't be in Iraq, and as a result, we might actually have a stronger presence in Afghanistan at this stage.
Lacking the push to war in Iraq, we wouldn't have pissed the entire world off, and we'd likely be in a better position in the "War on Terror" because of this.
But in 9/11 what-if terms, it's not even a very interesting question. The really interesting question is this -- what if John McCain had won the Republican nomination and the national election? [google.com]
Re:The greatest threat to my liberty... (Score:4, Informative)
Provide one with a sensible, reasonable platform that doesn't try to upset the applecart all at once and alienate every damn person on the planet, and I'll consider it.
I like the Libertarians as a general rule, except they can't ever agree on anything, except in the most general terms. The Libertarian convention is some of the best entertainment ever. Sorry, too fragmented to ever serve as anything but an example.
The Reform Party - uh. no. never. Ross Perot? C'mon guys. Great ideas focused solely on govermental reform and nothing else.
Greens - Nope. Not ever. Too far left.
Constitution Party - Too much Bible thumping. "Return
I'd feel like I was wasting my vote if I DID vote for any of those.
Re:The greatest threat to my liberty... (Score:4, Informative)
Constitution Party != Constitutionalist Party
Do a little googling on the two.
Re:The greatest threat to my liberty... (Score:4, Insightful)
The bottom line is, even if the terrorists get WMD and deploy them --- lets say 3 nukes and a couple of industrial sabotages a nuclear power plant meltdown and an airborne killer virus --- even that would not be the end of America. America will survive, simple as that. However, America will NOT survive if it becomes a facist state.
China, with 25 million men without potential wives, is MUCH more of a risk than some desert nomad religious fanatics raging against modernity.
Your fellow Americans... (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, the threat is mostly from your fellow citizens, who just don't care enough. Many have forgotten that democracy and freedom have risks, and the only way to protect them is to recognize, and ignore, that risk. If I stand a .00005% chance instead of a .00001% chance of getting blown up on a plane- but I and my fellow citizens remain free(ie, i didn't have to take my shoes off, didn't have to hand over "papers") so be it. If you aren't, you are a -coward-, and you can damn well pack your bags and move somewhere else, because America was founded by a bunch of guys who got -really- tired of exactly this kind of crap. What gives -you- the right to take -my- freedom, for -your- illusion of security? Franklin said it best: "They that give up essential liberty to obtain temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Nevermind that the risk is infinitesimal; in one year, +10x more people died on our highways than did in all the planes+buildings involved in the terrorist attacks. Every three days more people die of heart disease than died in the terrorist attacks(700,000 people a year, roughly). Nope, I can't have universal healthcare, but I can have Johhny Ashcroft breathing down my neck.
Planes aren't being hijacked because we stop the dreaded nail clipper from coming on board.
Exactly. Further- if you want proof of just how ineffective these measures are, look at countries where "security" is tightest. Israel, for example, is indisputable proof that no matter what you do, you just can't stop someone determined enough; when they stopped Palestinian men, women started strapping bombs to themselves. Then there's England; no end of security procedures did little to stop the IRA. Those video cameras in London, which practically outnumber people, have yielded no drop in crime; same goes for their thousands of radar-speed cameras; in fact, speeding's gone -up-...
Re:Your fellow Americans... (Score:3, Insightful)
My preferred analogy is to automobile accidents (roughly 30,000 people a year, which isn't nearly enough for us to resume Prohibition, lower speed limits, etc.), but the point is the same.
However, something just occurred to me. We're comparing death rates among the general United States populat
Re:The greatest threat to my liberty... (Score:5, Insightful)
The same as the number of elephants I've kept away with my elephant repellant.
Re:The greatest threat to my liberty... (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually, since I count Iraq as "American Soil" (after all, we ARE in control there, aren't we? - in fact, Iraqis have LESS rights in Iraq under US military rule than Americans have here in the US) - we've had DAILY terrorist attacks, thousands dead. No clue on the Ricin. No clue on the Anthrax. No clue on the Ohio sniper. The Washington sniper was only caught by blind luck on our part and stupidity on his part. Had in no way, anything to do with the liberties removed by USA PATRIOT Act. Bin Laden roams free, and the guy who sold nuclear secrets to Libya, Iran, and North Korea was pardoned, and the US State Department says that's OK.
Bush has been a miserable failure at security. He's even a failure at spin. Because he's not fooling all of the people. Only the gullible ones. Less and less every day.
Listen to your elders... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Listen to your elders... (Score:5, Insightful)
"The fetters imposed on liberty at home have ever been forged out of the weapons provided for defence against real, pretended, or imaginary dangers from abroad." -- James Madison, 4th US president (1751-1836)
um. (Score:4, Insightful)
I'd say the Bill of Rights would count as "essential liberties", wouldn't you?
quote still works for me.
Hypocrisy (Score:3, Insightful)
Woah he is taking a stand against unfounded fear, isn't that what he is in the business of selling?
Frightening person, this Dinh. (Score:5, Insightful)
Anybody who would be drawn to a political ideology purely based on what they oppose is, in my opinion, a dangerous person. Especially when mixed with the power, money and support that an organization like the Republican party has.
Re:Frightening person, this Dinh. (Score:5, Insightful)
Anybody who would be drawn to a political ideology purely based on what they oppose is, in my opinion, a dangerous person.
Well, I've got news for you: most people vote for whoever they hate the least. Think about it: how many politicans really generate genuine excitement? Very few. The main reason most people go to the polls and vote is because they are afraid of what might happen if "the other guy" gets elected. Hell, why do you think so many political ads are negative? Because they work! They instill fear in the public of the rival candidate.
You and I may wish for a world where people vote for the candidate they like or join a political party based on affinity with their ideals. But if you factor out the people who put bumper stickers on their car and wave those stupid banners around at political rallies, I think you'll find that most people are drawn to a political party because it's the lesser of two evils.
GMD
Re:Frightening person, this Dinh. (Score:4, Interesting)
-Yoda
What do you have against the Democrats? (Score:4, Insightful)
Frankly, this appears to be the entire Democratic Platform for 2004. I have heard nothing but "Hate Bush" from Democratic Party since 2000.
pot.kettle.black.
Re:Frightening person, this Dinh. (Score:3, Insightful)
Newsflash - The Democrats have the SAME faults as the Republicans. If you don't see that, you're deluding yourself. They're still politicians. It's one of the few things I can agree with Nader about. And your first proposition would classify most of Dean's followers as dangerous.
Re:Fascism is Socialism (Score:3, Insightful)
Totalitarianism and Fascism are extreme right.
BTW, there has NEVER been a Marxist country.
Wonderful---more P.R. bullcrap from the Government (Score:5, Informative)
The only reason they affect liberties is because Congress passes things like the Patriot Act. Otherwise, all they affect is safety.
Terrorists affect SAFETY, Congress affects LIBERTY. Get it straight, and we can all stop falling for this crap coming from Washington. If they said these terrorist groups were the greatest threat to our safety, then I'd buy it. But they are, however, NOT a threat to our liberty.
The Patriot Act is the threat to our liberty, effectively nullifying the Bill of Rights when it comes to searches and siezures, and the right to a FAIR and SPEEDY trial.
Government disheartens me. So do the people who buy crap like this from them and cannot draw the distinction for themselves. Just my (flaming) two cents.
This isn't supposed to be flamebait, but mod it as such if you think it is.
The problems with the Patriot Act.... (Score:5, Insightful)
In both of the above examples, the very existence of the country was at stake, in one of the two, half the US had broken off. The other, millions of people decided to declare war on the US (Germany, Italy, Japan, etc). Despite the tragedy that was 9-11, the entire attack was planned by dozens of people and executed by about 20.
My second problem is the open-endedness. The suspensions of due process in the above cases were understood as temperary and were lifted as soon as the war was over. These days, presidents don't seem to declare war on things that can possibly be ended by a peace treat (drugs, poverty, terror, etc). Tell me, Mr Bush, is the war on terror going to be over before or after the war on drugs?
The suspension of due process indefinitely is an abomination to liberty, which I could've sworn was what we were fighting for in the first place.
Re:The problems with the Patriot Act.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Absolutely.
"The suspension of due process indefinitely is an abomination to liberty, which I could've sworn was what we were fighting for in the first place."
I would argue that suspension at all is an abomination to liberty.
As for the rest of your comment, I must take issue with a number of things. First of all, you're definitely not a southerner, else you'd be calling it the War of Northern Aggression, which better illustrates the illegal nature of the war. There is nothing in the Consitution telling the Federal government that it had the power to stop secession of one or more states. Thus, as per the 9th and 10th amendments, the right to secede from the union remained with the states and those within those states. The North invaded, conquered, and ultimately burned to the ground a foreign nation because it was unable to survive, economically speaking, without it. But I digress.
You use the 'Civil War' (not getting into a semantecs debate) as one example of a time when citizens were imprisoned without due process. Luckily, we've had a court ruling on the matter, entitled Ex Parte Milligan [state.gov], in which the imprisonment of a citizen under martial law was reversed, and in which the Supreme Court held that the very declaration of martial law was, itself, unconstitutional. From the court's decision:
----------
"Martial law cannot arise from a threatened invasion. The necessity must be actual and present; the invasion real, such as effectually closes the courts and deposes the civil administration."[Emph mine]
"If, in foreign invasion or civil war, the courts are actually closed, and it is impossible to administer criminal justice according to law, then, on the theatre of active military operations, where war really prevails, there is a necessity to furnish a substitute for the civil authority, thus overthrown, to preserve the safety of the army and society; and as no power is left but the military, it is allowed to govern by martial rule until the laws can have their free course. As necessity creates the rule, so it limits its duration; for, if this government is continued after the courts are reinstated, it is a gross usurpation of power."
And most importantly:
"Martial rule can never exist where the courts are open, and in the proper and unobstructed exercise of their jurisdiction. It is also confined to the locality of actual war."
My personal favorite part of the decision:
"But, it is insisted that the safety of the country in time of war demands that this broad claim for martial law shall be sustained. If this were true, it could be well said that a country, preserved at the sacrifice of all the cardinal principles of liberty, is not worth the cost of preservation. Happily, it is not so."[Emph mine]
---------------
Ergo, example 1 was shown to be illegal. Shall we look further at example 2?
In World War 2, President Roosevelt issued Executive Order 9066, which called for all the 'japs' to be rounded up and put into internment camps. This already looks pretty bad, doesn't it? In Korematsu V. United States, the Supreme Court gave the 'thumbs up' to the internment camps, rolling over like trained puppies for the popular wartime President. However... Over time, people actually got their heads on straight and took a good look at what had happened. In 1976, President Ford issued Proclamation 4417 which terminated Executive Order 9066. It was called "An American Promise", and it promised that such an action would never again be taken, while acknowledging that it was wrong in the first place. In 1983, a Federal district court ruled the detention
Hammer and Nail (Score:5, Insightful)
Good Intentions Today (Score:5, Insightful)
Just look at the history of law enforcement. They begged for the ability to seize the property of drug dealers, and were granted that power by short sighted politicians. Now that power is used to steal cars from people never even charged with a crime - in complete violation of the Constitution, but what's the shredding of that moldy old paper when stopping evil drug dealers?
Well.. (Score:5, Insightful)
I support Viet Dinh's use of his 5th Amendment rights in this article.
What I don't support is the many parts of this act, and its enforcement, that are illegal, unconstitutional, immoral, and so far beyond the scope of Federal powers as to shock the imagination. I'm about ready to start looking into how we can find a strong libertarian presidential candidate who has a good chance of being elected. Along with a willing Congress, I'd like nothing more than to see the Federal government stripped down better than an unattended Corvette in south-central LA on a Friday night.
I want to see the Federal government up on cinder blocks, with the states standing around checking out their new goodies. Things are getting out of hand. We're spending more than $400 Billion a year on our military, just so we can stretch it to the breaking point by playing parent to the world. We're spending... well, we don't know how much we're spending on the very intelligence agencies that watch our every move. Why don't we know how much we're spending? Sorry, that's classified. Well, what are you doing with my money? Sorry, that's classified. Why is it classified?! It's my money! Sorry, that's classified. Well what am I getting in return for my unknown investment? Safety. Could you be more specific? Sorry, that's classified.
It's about time for a change. I wonder how much longer it will be before Americans can get together enough courage to dismantle the bulk of the Federal government. Are we ready for 10 - 20 years of readjustment, the end result of which is far more freedom and a return to the Constitutional Republic we once had? Or shall we sit on our collective asses for a bit longer while Uncle Sam's goons start doing random cavity searchs to see what we might be hiding?
Re:Well.. (Score:5, Insightful)
a) the income tax is not unconstitutional. In fact the Constitution explicitly grants the government the right to levy income tax. And even before that amendment it wasn't unconstitutional.
b) the income tax is not "a new animal". There was income tax over a hundred years ago.
c) most Americans wouldn't trade basic order for the anarchy of no federal government. They just wouldn't.
Using 9/11 as an excuse (Score:5, Interesting)
I guess I would trust Bush'es administration a tad more if they were not using the excuse of 9/11 to prosecute organizations such as Green Peace. A more or less complete story can be found in The Miami Herald [miami.com]. If they are capable of using such antiquated law as ''sailor-mongering,'' (intended to deal with people would board a ship and use liquor and prostitutes to lure away the crew) to prosecute organization that is trying to stop illegal logging, how can you trust them they won't use Patriot act in some insidious way?
The greatest threat (Score:5, Insightful)
I think right now at this time and this place the greatest threat to American liberty comes from Bush and their sympathizers rather than from Al-Qaida.
This works this way: An unjustifiable attack to other countries (like Iraq) leads to more anger from its citizens and even other countries. Now we have not just one group of loons who hate the US (Al Qaida), but many.
Re:The greatest threat (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The greatest threat (Score:5, Insightful)
- Seek a lasting and balanced peace between Israel and the Palastinians. This open wound has been there for so long we've almost become oblivious to the fact that it is at the root of the worst of the Arab animosity to the West. The Israeli's are engaged in acts against the Palastinians that would be called ethnic cleansing if they were happening in Yugoslavia. The U.S. has always backed Isreal at every turn, no matter how wrong they are or how brutally they treat the Palastinians. A key reason, the Friends of Isreal is one of the most poweful special interest lobbies in the U.S. A politician can't even suggest a balanced treatment of Isreal and the Palastinians without doing the equivalent of grabbing the third rail. Howard Dean said just that and he was crucified for it.
- Stop supporting despotic Arab dictatorships like Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. The administration spends a lot of time wailing about what a despot Saddam was, crowing about democracy in Iraq and conveniently ignoring the regimes that we call friends that are nearly as brutal as Iraq in suppressing dissent. Iraq under the Baathists offered vastly greater freedom to women then you will find in Saudi Arabi or any other Islamic state. The administration made great propaganda with public executions and dismemberment by the Taliban and Saddam but they are also routine in Saudi Arabia.
- Get American (Infidel) troops out of the Middle East. Arab culture simply can't cope with the decedence of American soldiers, liberated American women and an army that is overwhelmingly JudeoChristian in their midst. It just smacks of the Crusades. Its generally forgotten that Al Quaida's core issue was the fact there were American troops roaming all over Saudi Arabia, the Muslim holy land, for more than a decade between the two wars in Iraq. One of the few plusses of the Iraq invasion was it provided a mechanism for withdrawing American troops from Saudi Arabia.
Re:The greatest threat (Score:4, Interesting)
"It may well be that a number of citizens were not charged with terrorism-related crimes, but they need not be. Where the department has suspected people of terrorism it will prosecute those persons for other violations of law, rather than wait for a terrorist conspiracy to fully develop and risk the potential that that conspiracy will be missed and thereby sacrificing innocent American lives in the process. "
This could be interpreted as all suspected terrorist are guilty of other crimes for which they can be convicted, but I imagine its more likely that it means, if the government can't make a terrorism conviction stick, they fabricate other offenses which are an easier frame to make. An example which immediately comes to mind is Capt. James Yee, the muslim chaplain at Guantanomo who was facing a death penalty espionage charge for collaborating with the enemy. The Army's case completely collapsed but rather than let him go with an apology he is instead up on charges for adultery and using army computers to look at porn which can be used to put him in a Federal pen for a decade:
http://www.counterpunch.org/wright02022004.html
"I do recognize that our Defense Department officials have an awesome responsibility to play in not only prosecuting the war in Afghanistan and Iraq but also continuing to protect the American homeland"
I would really like to know what a DOJ official thinks "Defense Department officials" are doing to protect the Homeland that is apart from fighting foreign wars. The DOD's role in our nation's security is to prosecute foreign wars. It is the DOJ, National Gaurd and Homeland security's role to defend the homeland. The Posse Comitatus act of 1878 was put in place precisely to preclude the DOD from acting as a domestic enforcement agency because we wanted to discourage the military from seizing control of our homeland which is an all to common occurence in nation's where the military takes an active role in the homeland.
http://www.dojgov.net/posse_comitatus_act.htm
I'm cool with the DOD flying aircraft over the U.S. to secure the airspace but I don't ever want to see them practicing their trade on the ground unless we are really invaded.
"We should all applaud each other for getting into the game and risking injury because of it, because at the end of the day we all win if we do engage."
He's conveniently choosing to ignore the fact that his team has the vast resource of the DOJ, DOD, etc. on his side. Any ordinary citizens who jumped in to this game would risk grave, if not mortal, injury. He also doesn't seem to understand how games work. Unless there is a tie and no won wins, there is always a winner and a loser. The point spread is decidely in the favor of his team.
You could hope that somehow we could just all go out and vote and fix this but that is more than a little naive. The majority in this country isn't going to think about or understands the implications of the Patriot Act in their lives. They are going to hear their President, with his bully pulpit, use every speech to summon waves of fear, invoke images of 9/11 and then offer premptive warfare and the patriot act as the solution for all our fears. If we do go out and vote in November we can choose between John Kerry who voted for and cheerled the Patriotic Act when he thought it was popular and George Bush who signed it.
Re:Not justified? (Score:5, Interesting)
Nothing was done about what? The complete lack of threat from Iraq to any other nation?
If international law alone is so important (IE enough so to go to war because someone is ignoring some memos from the UN), why is the Emperor and his corporate advisory board so adamant that US citizens must be immune to the ICC?
The real reason wasn't just to get saddam, it has changed the middle east
You're right - in a few years, the Middle East (except for Israel of course) will be entirely under hardline Islamic law.
Well, if you ask me... (Score:5, Insightful)
I think that somebody who doesn't understand the distinction between correlation and causation has no business whatsoever rewriting the Constitution.
Re:Well, if you ask me... (Score:3)
He is like saying "there are no elephants in my garden therefore the chilli covered peanuts on the lawn works"
Typical media script (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd be very interested in someone asking Viet Dinh substantive questions about specific concerns raised in the Patriot Act, but I'm unable to draw much of any conclusion from reading this article, especially not the same alarmist conclusion that the story submitter has drawn.
Another interpretation I could make, especially based on the story submitter's comments, is that the critics of the Patriot Act are equally incapable of discussing the ramifications of the Act as are its supporters. Unfortunately, it's the job of the critics to do a good job criticizing and they get far too hung up in rhetoric and name-calling to take most of them very seriously and given that the law is now on the books, I think they're going to need to change their tactics if they want to have any substantive effect.
Oh crap, I seem to be falling prey to the standard media script of analyzing process rather than issues.
How apropos to discuss the Patriot Act (Score:3, Funny)
It's all about attitude (Score:3, Insightful)
From the article:
If indeed that is your fear or that is your perception then engage in the democratic process. Back up your argument, back up your belief with facts, marshal evidence in order to convince those who are engaged in the process of governance.
Vinh's attitude is that he is "governing" and that we have to come to him with information to change his mind. He does not view himself as a public servant obviously. It is his job to convince the citizens of the United States (not the "governed of the United States") that he needs the tools he has asked for. It is his job to convince the citizens that hsi approach is correct. We do not need to "convince" those who are currently tasked with governing the country. We need to vote their political masters out and get some people in with better attitudes.
Repeat after me... (Score:5, Interesting)
YOU CANNOT PRESERVE FREEDOM BY DESTROYING IT
I hate to seem like I am shouting, but I am shouting. What the Patriot Act does to the civil liberties of citizens is unconstitutional and wrong. There is no way that any part of that law should be renewed. It is essentially a declaration that the terrorists won. This is not what I want, and I don't think it is what the American people want to say to the rest of the world.
"Facts and examples" (Score:5, Interesting)
Dinh: I think it is very easy to employ sweeping rhetoric and personal denunciations. I think it is much harder to back it up with facts and concrete examples. [...]
And it is much harder still to back up any sort of reasonable discussion up with facts and concrete examples when the people defending the act in question also have discretion over the facts and concrete examples that are released for public review.
Threat to liberty? (Score:5, Insightful)
A threat to American liberty? Sure they're a threat, but how on earth can a small, loosely knit band only really capable of random destruction threaten liberty? They may threaten building, airplanes, and (heaven forbid) a city, but the exact same destruction is wreaked on a larger scale around the world by natural disasters.
You need a large army, militia or police force to threaten liberty.
Hey America: (Score:5, Insightful)
These people MUST realize that the "War on Terrorism" is a necessarily perpetual one. Is Viet therefore proposing that we give up our civil liberties indefinitely? Whether he knows it or not, that's what he seems to be proposing.
As long as Americans are willing to believe that politics is over their heads and that they shouldn't worry about what goes on in Washington, the way is wide open for some dynastic madman to install himself in the White House without even being elected, and start waging unprovoked wars in countries most Americans can't recognize on continents most Americans can't name.
As THE most powerful nation on Earth that claims to be, (of/by/for) the people, its citizens have a great responsibility to keep their civil servants accountable. If you ask me, most are allowing themselves to be distracted from that responsibility.
The best way to have both security and liberty (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, this does reduce safty in some areas, but that is the price you pay to avoid the real risk involved in allowing desaparacidos.
On the whole it's a pretty good bargain.
If we do not remove liberties than the people who died on 9/11 (I'm a New Yorker, so that list includes acquaintences and directly affected family members) did so as patriots protecting liberty.
If we use 9/11 as an excuse to remove liberties then they died so that we might all be less free and subvert the constitution.
If I've gotta die I'd rather do so for liberty, not a police state.
KFG
Joe McCarthy (Score:5, Insightful)
He falls into the same trap as Senator McCarthy, by destroying the very thing he seeks to protect in his zeal. I remember stories of the neighbourhood "stazi" agents in the former East Germany, and thought what a horrible sort of place to live. Of course I would fight to the death to avoid having to live in such a society. Then you read about initiatives such as TIA and the PATRIOT act initiatives, and wonder if we really won the cold war after all....
This danger exists on both the right and left of the political spectrum. Censorship and repression in the name of "political correctness" is the other side of the coin.
In one way at least, Al Queda has won the war on terror - they hate the idea of a free, tolerant, pluralistic society, and they have managed to make ours considerably less so.
Al Qaida has won... ARGH!!! (Score:5, Interesting)
Did ANYONE EVER read the letter from Bin Laden to the "United States".
Here's an article [guardian.co.uk] from the Observer containing the full translated text.
Here's some key pieces of the text for those who are too lazy to click on the link:
Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:
(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.
a) You attacked us in Palestine:
(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.
And here's a part regarding liberty and freedom...
(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:
(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.
Again, it's out of context, you need to read the letter to understand the point he's making.
I don't necessarily agree with what he's saying, but let's get the facts straight. It's not that they hate a free society, but they hate the fact that this free society allowed the oppression they've supposedly felt.
I have a feeling that if history occured differently, there would be a bit more acceptance for the things he argues against later in the letter (such as gambling, drug use,
Re:Al Qaida has won... ARGH!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, I have read similar publications from them. A typical propoganda piece, full of historical distortions.
Bin Laden is a Saudi, not a Palestinian. None of the Sept 11th hijackers were. Very few Al Queda memebers are. The Palestinian Authority has gone to great lengths to distance themselves from, and denounce Al Queda. They use the existance of the state of Israel is a straw dog. I was able to speak with somebody before in the Egyptian government about the Yom Kippur war. It was quite revealing - the allies never trusted each other, and he admitted that even had the state of Israel been utterly destroyed, there would be no peace or stability in the region. Quite the reverse in fact.
American has lent much material aid to Israel, no doubt about it. They have also lent considerable aid to Islamic countries as well. Turkey enjoys very good relations with the US. They conveniently forget how the NATO, particularly the US and GB went to war to save Muslims in Bosnia.
Al Queda loves to beat their chest about the evils of the 800 year old crusades, (true enough) yet forget about the enslavement and mandatory conscription of Christan children to serve the Ottoman empire.
But you do have one point. Some of the things I see coming from the religious far right in the USA bear an uncomfortable resemblance to statements that might have come from the Taliban.
Although it is not mentioned in your statement, they DO hate a free society. Look at the model society they built in Afghanistan. It wasn't enough even to be a practicing Muslim, look what they did to the Sheite minorities, they considered heretic. You were forced to exactly follow the edicts of their particular (warped) interpretation of Islam.
Not to pick on Muslims by the way, there seems to be an equal distribution of intolerance distributed among all faiths.
Logical impossibility (Score:5, Interesting)
It seems to me that the only person(s) capable of restricting, denying, or otherwise effecting MY liberty are those individuals in authority to whom I am supposed to defer. That would be law enforcement, national security and those who rule them. Al-Quaida and its sympathizers have no control over me, none. I can't recall ever having to obey their rules, or having them tell me what to do. Attitudes like this piss me off to no end. I am not an infant, I can bloody well take care of myself, and I would thank my fellow Americans if they would stop acting like babies, expecting to be coddled by the powers that be and their tools.
Always remember that a jail also protects those within from those on the outside.
"right now at this time and this place" (Score:3, Redundant)
The problem isn't necessarily that we can't trust law enforcement officials; its just that's not how our system works. Our system is based on transparency and accountability, because in the long term it works better.
The last time the US was in a situation like this was after WW2. Things looked, if anything, bleaker with the communists advancing throughout the world. We let agencies run wild on the "desperate times/desperate measures" theory. They ended up doing a lot of stuff that was just pointless, like experimenting with LSD on unwitting citizens, or having our legislature take part in a witch hunt that was in the end turned out to be run by a pathetic liar.
The institutions that did these things didn't start being disgraceful and stupid; indeed they were not entirely or even mainly so. But they ended up doing a lot of things they wouldn't have otherwise just because they had a license to operate without outside scrutiny and criticism.
Panic is not a good mode to run a war in. The Patriot act is just congressional platform for political posturing that doesn't do anything real for security. It's all a big sideshow. The 9/11 hijackers could have been stopped with the laws we had then, had we only taken the threat of air piracy seriously. We could have stopped them then if we had the will. Years later now we still don't have the will. Sure the air travel system is a bit more secure, but it's only a matter of time before somebody who is not a prankster sneaks a weapon on board or walks/forces his way through an unsecured perimeter.
What we really need to do is hard, expensive work. We need to do a lot more scrutinizing of critical facilities and hire armies of people to secure them and more armies of people to check up on the those guys. Sure, we're doing a little of that, but it is not even within two orders of magnitude of say the Iraq effort, which is absurd when you consider their relative security value (note I didn't say Iraq had zero value; it might have had some but on balance probably has negative value). What we've got, however, is the Patriot Act which does nothing for our security but gives our elected representatives the all important political "cover". Look! They're passing laws! They're having debates! They're talking about security! It's harsh! Like brusing your teeth with Clorox!
My Rant.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Okay kids, here's the thing. We can all sit on
Can you even fathom what a political power the members of
Don't like what you see? Don't talk, do.
Wan't a coup? Fine. Let's have one in November.
S
the PA has been abused already (Score:4, Insightful)
American Liberty... (Score:5, Insightful)
the most disturbing part of the interview... (Score:4, Insightful)
By not mentioning the specifics of the act, and instead talking about how people are afraid of the act, this report manages to, surprise surprise, actually stir up more fear (hence all the posts on slashdot.)
What I would like to see is a specific breakdown. here's what patriot act ACTUALLY SAYS and here's what the constitution says, and show me differences. then I can make an opinion. Here's why X is bad, here's why Y is bad.
Also, shame on you if you posted against the patriot act in this thread and have not actually read it yourself. you shouldn't trust the trolls around you to summarize it with their slant.
I for one thought Viet's response to the one accusation, section 215, was actually reasonable. The powers he mentioned exist and have existed on state level and make sense nationally.
and finally, to those who say that our greatest threat comes from our own government: Physical violence against citizens in the most blatant way, murder, is preventable. Each one of those twenty hijackers made a conscious effort. America did not deserve it. not one person who died deserved it. And it could have been prevented had a decent enough intelligence effort been put forth. If the government did NOT put forth efforts to protect us, it would be abdicating its duty.
Re:the most disturbing part of the interview... (Score:4, Informative)
I wish I had time to do it for you myself, but here's a pretty good analysis of the USA PATRIOT act and why it's bad:
http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/usapatriot [epic.org]
Physical violence against citizens in the most blatant way, murder, is preventable.
Wrong. The only way that would be possible would be for each and every person in the US to have an armed guard in their company 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year. Life is dangerous, that's a fact of life. I've said it before, and I'll say it again.. live long enough, you die. Every time, no exceptions.
Each one of those twenty hijackers made a conscious effort. America did not deserve it. not one person who died deserved it.
No argument there. I'm a firefighter, so 343 of my brothers died on 9/11 as a result. I definitely feel the pain of what happened. But if we start sacrificing our civil liberties in the name of psuedo-safety in the aftermath of 9/11, then those brave men and women died in vain, and there memories are tarnished forevermore.
And it could have been prevented had a decent enough intelligence effort been put forth.
That's debatable. The intelligence we DID have wasn't acted on appropriately. Would more intelligence have really helped?
If the government did NOT put forth efforts to protect us, it would be abdicating its duty.
No, no, no. Nobody has any obligation to protect me (or you) but myself (or yourself). It's a simple concept called personal responsibility, and it used to be considered a basic principle in this country. The government is not a full-time nanny who can watch over each and every one of us around the clock.
The thing is, no matter how careful you are, bad things can still happen. That sucks, but it's life. How many of you really thought you were going to live forever, anyway? But while you are living, you should be able to live with Freedom and Liberty, as a free man, according to the principles defined in the Constitution.
terrorist threat: the numbers (Score:5, Informative)
The 2001 attack was the big exception: 3000 Americans were killed that year on US soil.
However, to put this in context, about 40,000 Americans are killed every year in auto accidents.
So this is what we're sacrificing liberty for: a phenomenon that is typically less than 0.1% of the threat from auto accidents, and didn't evern break 10% in the worst year ever.
Re:This is an OUTRAGE (Score:3, Insightful)
It was part of the whole post-9/11 deal (Score:3, Insightful)
There was actually not much debate in Congress. The Patriot Act passed through very easily. The only problem was that it takes away our checks and balances system of government, which is part of what makes American such a great country.
Don't trust me, though. Read what one website said: "The FBI can now access your most private medical records, your library records, and your student records... and can preve
Re:I doubt it (Score:5, Insightful)
Same way hitler managed to convince his people that 'jews' were the enemy.
Its called scare tatics.
I highly doubt the DESTROY part where you say we lose our rights. This thing had to be voted for by hundreds of senate/congress men.
Well, you can doubt all you want. Doesn't change the fact that america has made a mistake by following those who have already failed in history. And no, millions, like yourself, were duped into this law by sensless fear.
Untill america gets a clue, things wont improve.
Re:I doubt it (Score:5, Insightful)
But that's how it starts. As a relatively minor problem. Holocaust magnitude tragedies are only the consequence. I quote from my own website "quotes" page:
Hermann Goering
"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
(at Nurnberg trials)
Re:I doubt it (Score:5, Insightful)
Few societies willingly accept totalitarianism in one gulp, which means that citizens must be weaned onto it in small steps. Make no mistake: the Patriot Act (and many others like it) is a first step. In spite of the many rationalizations used to justify its continued existence, laws such as that really have no place in civilized society, much less the United States of America. Just don't get too complacent: I'm sure many Germans prior to the rise of the Third Reich felt that it "couldn't happen here" but they were wrong. Hey, I've seen Sliders
Re:I doubt it (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:I doubt it (Score:4, Insightful)
Look, just fuse together Roy Moore, Che Guevera, Kevin Mitnick, L. Ron Hubbard, the guys from Queer Eye, Martin Sheen, and Fred Phelps [wikipedia.org], send them back to the Great Depression, and have them run for president on the platform of "Kill the Lawyers, Take Their Money". What do you think's going to happen?
That's the strength of fascism, it's not political, it's social and artistic. It's a near-foolproof method of gaining power in a free society, and it just so happens that it appeals to, and works best for, vapid power-fetishists who often happen to be prone to bouts of genocidal mania once they get to the top. The most stunning thing about the Holocaust is that they managed to pull it off before the whole mangled system collapsed in on itself.
You walk around with blinders on, then (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:I doubt it (Score:3, Interesting)
1. The legal process is finally getting it right
2. It is about time!! More than 2 years after it was made into law
3. There was obviously something wrong in it. Who would doubt there's more.
Read it for yourself, so next time, you'll know what you're talking about.
MOD THIS DOWN, AC == KNOWN TROLL (Score:3, Funny)
Re:This is an OUTRAGE (Score:3, Interesting)
Another Anonymous Coward Heard From (Score:3)
Sentences are not limited to three words. (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Read the Patriot Act (Score:5, Interesting)
The Patriot Act is already being abused to prosecute all manner of crimes that have nothing to do with its original intent. If there were any checks and balances in the act itself, this wouldn't be happening.
Pull your head out of your ass and smell the Totalitarianism!
!!!!!!!! Mod Parent Up !!!!!!!!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Read the Patriot Act (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Read the Patriot Act (Score:3, Informative)
You shouldn't blame every bad thing the administration has done on the Patriot Act. Although I think Dinh defends som
Re:Read the Patriot Act (Score:3, Insightful)
Neither are they a matter of minority imposition.
They are a matter of personal reflection and commitment to what is right.
This is unsound for two reasons. First, it begs the definition of what is right. You've ruled out the majority; the minority is no better -- what do you have left? Second, it's no different than the ancient formula "everyone does that which is right in their own eyes"
Re:Read the Patriot Act (Score:4, Insightful)
BULLSHIT! (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Read the Patriot Act (Score:5, Insightful)
Your statement encapsulates precisely many people's arguments against the Patriot Act. Namely, I'd rather retain my liberty/privacy and take my security into my own hands than allow Big Brother Ashcroft, et al, do whatever he likes, Constitution be damned, in the name of ferreting out communists, oops, I mean terrorists in our midst.
Re:Read the Patriot Act (Score:5, Insightful)
You are basically saying "You made us take all these vitamins, but we never got ill"....
Re:Read the Patriot Act (Score:3, Interesting)
Then again the one time they did ignore the boy who cried wolf was the one real time that the wolf actually came. The price of peace and freedom is eternal vigilance.
Re:Read the Patriot Act (Score:5, Insightful)
Do not kid yourself, the Patriot Act is permanent. Legislation like this which is originally intended to address a current problem (Al Quida) has a way of lingering around long after the problem is no longer around to justify its existince.
The patriot act may look like a drop in the bucket, but do some research into how the founding fathers viewed strong centralized government versus what we actually have today and you can see how each of these minute changes has managed to turn this country upside down.
Re:Ha! (Score:3, Insightful)
Hello? He FLED AWAY FROM a communist country.
From the article:
Dinh's mother escaped with him and five of his siblings to the United States.
Re:Asking a Vietnam refugee... (Score:5, Insightful)
Asking a Vietnam refugee... About civil liberties is like asking Jack Valenti about fair use.
Wrong. Asking a Vietnam refugee about civil liberties is more like asking DVD Jon about fair use. Jack Valenti knows nothing about fair use because he never lost the right; a Vietnamese refugee has losh his civil liberties.
My parents fled from Castro's regime in Cuba (which came to power in when they were teenagers). Consequently, they have a deeper appreciation for liberty than any natural born American I have ever met. Why? Because they had liberty and it was taken. They don't want to get it taken again. I imagine that Vietnamese refugees are similarly inclined.
Re:Asking a Vietnam refugee... (Score:3, Insightful)
Just cause you came from a repressive government doesn't make you an authority on the US values of liberty. You certainly may love liberty here in the US, but don't tell me that you're qualified to speak authoritatively on the subject.
Our concept of liberty is a somewhat subtle and contradictary thing. It involves tolerance of low-level civil disobediance, basic distrust of all forms of government and law enforcement, and most of all, the understanding that the only
Re:Asking a Vietnam refugee... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Novel idea here... (Score:3, Insightful)
Have you considered the SIZE of the Middle East, let alone Afghanistan? That's a damn big area to "swallow". To say Bin-Laden was "allowed" to escape implies that he was ever captured to begin with.
Re:Novel idea here... (Score:3, Insightful)
How quickly we forget the Oklahoma City bombing...
It doesn't matter who you are or if you've got guns or nukes or what. It matters what you do with them.
Re:Novel idea here... (Score:3, Funny)
For future reference (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Patriot Hysteria (Score:3, Interesting)
As you mention, documents "theoretically" include library records. Has there been an actual case where library records were presented as the sole qualifying grounds for more court orders, particularly an arrest warrent? How about being just one of several items of evidence?
Re:Shhhh! (Score:5, Funny)
Oh shit, what a minute.
Re:DinhSounds like an Extremist (Score:5, Insightful)
Now he sounds more like a Palestinian suicide bomber. "
Show me an outspoken member of the GOP that has blown himself up at a bus terminal and/or press releases where the Republican party has taken credit for such a bombing and I'll agree with your comparison between the two. Otherwise, you have +4 Fear Mongering.