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IBM Offers to Help Sun Open Up Java

michael posted more than 10 years ago | from the with-friends-like-these dept.

Java 475

dave writes "ESR has opened the issue of pressuring Sun to open source Java, and today IBM throws in their own commitment toward this end. IBM has published an open letter to Sun, proposing that the two companies collaborate on an independent project to open source Java, saying that IBM is ready to provide technical resources and code for the open source Java implementation while Sun provides the open source community with Sun materials, including Java specifications, tests and code."

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How nice of IBM.. (5, Insightful)

grub (11606) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398130)


Just playing Devil's Advocate here: IBM sounds touchy-feely about open source but how would they react if Sun were to offer to help IBM open up AIX?

Re:How nice of IBM.. (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8398161)

probably reply
why, we have linux!

Re:How nice of IBM.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8398175)

Such an offer can always be rejected. As the Slashdot saying goes: "It's all about choice."...

Re:How nice of IBM.. (4, Interesting)

psykocrime (61037) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398177)

First thing... what are the chances of a true first post getting modded UP!?! What has happened to the slashdot we all knew and loved?

Just playing Devil's Advocate here: IBM sounds touchy-feely about open source but how would they react if Sun were to offer to help IBM open up AIX?

Second thing... bad example, since IBM has already released stuff from AIX as OSS (see the whole SCO vs. IBM debacle)... and they could never open-source the whole thing, because of licensing issues for the base SysV stuff it's built on.

Unless IBM was to buy SCO... in which case, who knows, AIX might just get open-sourced. :-)

Re:How nice of IBM.. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8398243)

Bad example perhaps, but it's a good point - I'll bet even Microsoft would support this. ;)

Re:How nice of IBM.. (3, Interesting)

Bull999999 (652264) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398288)

I doubt it MS would support this if it's released under GPL. Otherwise, they'll be forced to show their own code if they decided to use the code for themselves.

Re:How nice of IBM.. (0, Troll)

LilMikey (615759) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398465)

I doubt it MS would support this if it's released under GPL. Otherwise, they'll be forced to show their own code if they decided to use the code for themselves.

...unless, of course, they use the code without telling anyone which [baseless attack] has probably been happening for years.[/baseless attack]

Re:How nice of IBM.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8398447)

the first post did get one overrated-i think the editors' anti-first post scripts are still in effect, even for subscribers that prepare an interesting first post.

Re:How nice of IBM.. (4, Insightful)

3 am Eternal (754358) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398185)

Well Java is not really an operating system and it does seem perfect for an open source project but I take your point. As long as IBM ask nicely and no one takes offence if Sun say no in a rather emphatic manner, it can't hurt.

Re:How nice of IBM.. (4, Insightful)

dnoyeb (547705) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398232)

Without a doubt. I can't help but smile at the whole thing. I am sure Sun would rather die than allow IBM to 'help' them.

Nevertheless, I just dont understand what opening Java is supposed to mean? ANSI-Java? I don't get it, anyone can make their own JVM and release it as a Java JVM long as it conforms to the JLS right!? IBM has already done this right?

Re:How nice of IBM.. (4, Interesting)

ekephart (256467) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398304)

"Without a doubt. I can't help but smile at the whole thing. I am sure Sun would rather die than allow IBM to 'help' them."

I doubt shareholders feel this way... unless their goal is to be bought out.

Re:How nice of IBM.. (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8398233)

I'm not sure that this comparison is totally valid. IBM isn't marketing AIX as a counter-culture product that challenges the dominance of the 'evil monopolist' Microsoft.

Sun is trying to have it both ways- claim their language will "free" them from the clutches of MS while trying to clutch the language specification/certification for its own.

Re:How nice of IBM.. (4, Insightful)

LibrePensador (668335) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398250)

I am with you on this one. Sun opens up Java and IBM does the same with their Lotus suite?

A gesture is met with a gesture and we all win.

It will never happen.

Re:How nice of IBM.. (2, Interesting)

Red_Harvest (260868) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398468)

This is already being done, sort of


OpenNTF [openntf.org]

Re:How nice of IBM.. (5, Interesting)

d00ber (707098) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398372)

IBM put JFS the AIX journaling filesystem into Linux. They might well respond by saying yes. I do admit that given IBMs long history of tweaking SUN (Eclipse [eclipse.org] anyone?) that this offer by IBM might not be taken that well. OTOH Sun has never seemed that hell bent on monetizing Java - the licensing and conformance testing fees probably don't begin to cover development costs.

They say are trying to build a community around Java and it seems to me that given those two points Sun really should release Java to the open source community.

I think this really would give Java a HUGE boost over .NOT.

Besides, JBoss and Linux distros make money on packaging and supporting Free but hugely complex systems.

OMG YOU GUYS OMG SIGN MY MOUSEPAD (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8398133)



Fizzy Postus

I WILL SIGN YOUR MOUSEPAD... WITH MY COCK! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8398172)

______________
< YOU FAIL IT! >
--------------
\ ^__^
\ (nn)\_______
(__)\ )\/\
||----w |
|| ||

FIFTH POST (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8398144)

i do not fail it

THIRD POST, YOU UNEQUIVOCALLY FAIL IT. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8398235)

You sicken me.

YOU THICKEN ME. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8398264)

what's better? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8398145)

(A) opening Java

OR (B) sex with a mare

B, Sex with a mare, final answer (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8398198)

My brain, my body, my stomach, my eyes... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8398151)

My brain, my body, my stomach, my eyes, and my ears were under severe attacks this past day and night by Henry( Hank) Rumbarger( name called out from the high-tech machine), an employee of KBR (Kellogg, Brown & Root), a subsidiary of Halliburton. Hank Rumbarger,I did not renew my Professional Engineer license for the year of 2004 --the license which I believe that David M. Austgen, a project manager of The M. W. Kellogg Company helped me a lot to obtain that in 1991 -- and I have told you that I do not want to work for you,, so please end this kind of attacks or let me know that you were not the person who controlled the high-tech machine. Please read the following five letters, investigate the case, and/or response. Thank you.

Letter 1:

Charlie Wang
[ADDRESS DELETED]

December 16, 2003

To Whom it may concern:

The high-tech machine in my letter is a very general term, meaning a very complicated device which may combine different functions of machines, such as computer, satellites or radio stations, and some mechanical and electrical systems. The pain I endured most is my brain, my skin, my eyes, my ears. my throat, and my body. My short memory is very bad because my brain has been constant under attacks no matter when I read, when I played tennis and computer games, when I watched TV, and when I was sleeping. the most frustrating thing is, when I was reading, I was constantly disturbed by voices and images, which, I speculate, can be transmitted through satellite, radio station, and/or brain wave. My skin felt very sharp pain as cut by a knife when it was under attacks. My eyes were under severe attacks while I was playing computer games, which can cause very temporarily blurred vision and/or tears. My ears will fell loud ring sounds and/or voices when they were under attacks, and it could happen any time, especially at night while I was sleeping. There are more regarding how I felt about the pain I suffered through the brain, throat, and my body, and I will tell more details if I go to the courts.

Now, you know how dangerous this high-tech machine is. I tried my best to tolerate it to keep it as a secret and not to terrifying people, but whoever using that machine has no intention to stop but increasing it's power to damage my body. We all have responsibility to stop the person (persons) to abuse this high-tech machine, not just for myself, but also for the children and for this country. Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,
Charlie Wang, P.E.

Letter 2:

Charlie C. Wang, P.E.
[ADDRESS AND PHONE DELETED]

January 19, 2003

To whom it may concern:

I would like to tell you something which I have kept in my mind for a long time. How long is it? It is about five months. You probably think it is not long. All I can say is that it is all relative. If you live happy, five months is really too short and too fast. If you suffer unpleasant attacks on your brain, ears, eyes, mouth, fingers, heart, stomach, liver, and feet for that period of time, you know time just passed so so slow. You must ask why I kept it in my mind for so long. I only can say there are so many reasons. but once I tell you that those attacks were done by a very high intelligent machine (or machines), you can understand how complex this issue is.

I was contract pipe stress engineer for Fluor Daniel from January, 2002 to May, 2002.
I believed I performed my job very well, but I got laid off anyway. In July, this high tech. machine started to approach me at night and day. I could not fall asleep for the first week, because it attacked my brain or my ears all the time. I could hear different voices, but most important of all, I heard the names, Hank(Henry) Rumbarger and M. W. Kellogg. Henry Rumbarger was my supervisor while I was working as a permanent pipe stress engineer from 1989 to 1991 at M.W.Kellogg. After the first week of attacks, I slept better, but the attacks on my brain, ears, eyes, heart, stomach, and liver continued. In a few days, the attacks were so severe, I had to walk outside on side walks around and around in my subdivision, Williams Glen , First Colony. I have tried to figure out why Hank Rumbarger of M.W. Kellogg hated me so much, all I could think of is I did not send a gift of PC World magazine. Otherwise, I could only say Why, Why, Why, Why. As time developed, the machine occasionally made some jokes, but it could not relieve any pain I experienced. Hank Rumbarger( name called out from the machine) also constantly wanted me to check my accounts for the money they deposit to compensate those attacks. I checked every time he asked me, but it was always in vain. I never gave up, because I thought I deserved the compensation. Finally the machine told me to report to Sugar Land Police Department to get this payments. I reported Police Department twice. I called attorney once. Finally I had to call Hank Rumbarger himself. Surprisingly, he told me that he is not aware of that. Yesterday, I heard that M.W. Kellogg issue final statement that they wanted to compensated me six hundred thousand dollars exactly, take or leave it. I thought I should accept it because it is recession and they could not make too much profit. You know what? I was experienced sever attacks on my brain and my feet by Hank Rumbarger (name called out from the machine) last night. That is why I decided write this letter to let people know. Maybe just maybe, the more people know, the more likely the machine will stop and the truth will come out. Now my nerve of my feet is still hurt. I can not walk well. That is all because of that machine which constantly attacked me. There is something more terrible, which I really do not want to openly mention here, Just because this is so advanced high tech. machine. All I can tell you, I almost got killed in a couple incidents.

I do not know whether you experience it or you heard of that before, but I do know every bit I told you is the truth. Also the truth is that I did not tell you all, Because I have suffered those pain for so long. One time I even was told that I will get paid twelve million dollars. Gush, I am still not get paid by even a penny. I do not write any further.
All I ask you is just imagine that if that person were you, or your loved one. Thank you for your patience and your time.

Sincerely
Charlie C. Wang

Letter 3:

Charlie C. Wang, P.E.
[ADDRESS AND PHONE DELETED]

It was January 19, 2003. I wrote the first letter regarding the attacks which I suffered from the high tech. machine. I E-mail the letter to friends, attorneys, and six publishing Companies which included Houston Chronicle, New York Times, Chicago Tribune, Philadelphia Inquirer, Washington Times, and Los Angeles Times. I called police persons. One of them, named Tracy Taylor, said that it happened to the other persons. Most important of all, I faxed this letter to Margaret who is the secretary of Mr. Karl, the president of Kellogg, Brown & Root. I thought the attacks would stop, but it did not. I suffered even more sever attacks. This machine attacked my brain, my ears, and my body several times while I was sleeping at night and the machine's attack almost made me fainted on the ground while I was playing tennis at Elkins high school tennis court. Not only that, at night of February 3, I heard the voice from the machine, which made death threat to me and my family between the conversation of Mr. Karl and Hank(Henry) Rumbarger(the conversation to be confirmed) of Kellogg, Brown & Root, Therefore I have to write this second letter to let every person know what really happened in details in order that the machine(or machines) will stop attacking me.

It started in 1996, while I was as a contract pipe stress engineer. people walked back and forth in front of my desk and looked at me without saying a word. I felt strange, but I really did not know what was this about. During the period of 1996 to 1999, I had changed my jobs six times. Some jobs even only lasted two weeks. In 1997 and 1998, I had to call Hank Rumbarger to say, quote "good morning, how are you." every day In order to survive on that job. In 1999, I called Hank(Henry) Rumbarger to see whether He was hiring, He answer, quote "not until you decide?". Since that day I had to search the answer myself. You know what happened to me after that. A lot of girls walked around me smiling, staring at me without saying a word, or used words or body languages to attack me at Sweetwater country club, Fort Bend Community church, and other places. Finally I heard a person at hot tub at Sweetwater country club, saying "all you need is to touch a girl's bottom" , After that, I spent $5000.00 dollars to defend two girls from Sweetwater country club, one of them accused me touch her bottom while she was making a telephone call near to the hot tub at about club closing time. This case took three times of trial, lasted six months. You know what?, I was arrested on my birthday, while I was going to have interview for a math teacher position. That was longer than three months after that incident. You know what? How long it took me to go back to the next contract job. It took me two years and five months. During this time, The words or body languages continued at the church and other places, but I would not even try to look at girls intentionally. While I was working at Fluor Daniel from January 2002 to May 2002, the same things happened while I was working on my project and during lunch hour. I thought it meant no harm and I needed to get my paycheck, so I did the same thing accordingly. Like the first letter stated that I believed in that I performed very well and kept good relationship with the project team, but I got the call from my contact agent to lay me off anyway. As I stated in my first letter, in July, this high tech. machine started to approach me at night and day. It hit my brain at my friend's house while we were together for fellowship and at Lexas dealer service building. It attacked me on my brain, my heart and my arms while I was playing tennis tournament at Northwest country club. The machine's attack almost made me fainted to the ground while I was playing tennis at Elkins high school. It also attacked me once while I was driving from the church on the way to home, which could cause me and my family sever injures or death if accident occurred. It also attacked me while I was playing piano, chess, and while I was at assembly building for jury duty and at movie theater. Most of all, this machine (or machines) constantly made some ringing noise waking me up several times at night, and then you could hear talking near your ears, and then the attacks on my brain, my ears, my neck, or any part of my body followed. It also attacked me while I was on my study room and my computer room. This is a very high-tech. machine, I still did not tell you very detail, because it will make you frighten such that it could make you feel "sudden death". I could not tell you who really control this kind of machine, but all I can tell you is the names called out from the machine, what are those names, they are Hank Rumbarger, Margaret, and Mr. Karl, President of Kellogg, Brown & root. Most of all, I heard the name Hank Rumbarger a lot, who always claimed he is still my boss, he could do whatever he wanted toward me, because that was his business. All I could tell you is because that phone call I made to Hank Rumbarger in 1999, My family started suffering, because I could not find a job. Not because I did not have good technical skill, but because I had to keep searching that answer "not until you decide." My family started suffering, because I had to spend so much time on lying on bed because the machine's sever attacks.

Now, I want to reemphasize how danger this high tech. machine (or machines) can cause. It really can cause your death. I kept fighting this kind of machine, while I kept sending this letter out through E-mail. I understood I did not receive the response from police men, or from the attorneys, not mentioning from most of my friends. I will keep fighting to this machine (or machines) and to the man or woman (men or women). Not because it threatened my life, but also it started to threaten my family's life. It can threaten you or your loved one's life too. All I can tell those persons controlling the machine that, If you want to attack me, I will keep fighting. Do not involve my family, Just because they should not be involved, especially my children. I will send this letter to as many people as possible so that every person can be alert. I am very appreciate your time to read this letter. If you know someone, you can forward to him or her. I will take full responsibility. Because this high tech. machine has to be stopped for using as a tool to attack people. Those people should be arrested in order to make human live freely. Just image how cruel this person (or persons) is. I still believe in American. I still believe in this jurisdictional system. Eventually, justice and the truth will come out, even though I can not provide any witness.

Sincerely,
Charlie Wang, P.E.

Letter 4:

Charlie C. Wang, P.E.
[ADDRESS AND PHONE DELETED]

September 3, 2003

To whom it may concern:

It was January 19, and February 9, I emailed my first and second letters, respectively, to friends, attorneys, and six publishing companies to tell them what the high-tech machine (machines) had attacked me. It has been six months gone by, I thought that the person (persons) controlling the machine had understood how serious this matter is, because the attacks were not that violent anymore, even though it kept bothering me. I also sent the e-mail of these two letters to attorney general and FBI later, I did not get any response and I understand how complex this issue was. I was humbled by Jesus Christ, the pain I had endured is relatively small by comparing the torment he suffered. Therefore, I did not send the third letter and hopefully god would guide me through this painful experience.

The reality is that the machine started violently attacking me again and again. I thought that God also give us free will to do our best to protect our body and tell us to do what are righteous, even though it means it might cause another more powerful attacks . therefore I am writing this letter to let you know what happened to me, and ,hopefully, if anyone had the same experience or any knowledge regarding this matter, he can be very brave to tell the truth, the righteous thing to do, because I do know how tough to face this kind of decision..

During the past few months, the high-tech machine still kept attacking my ears, my brain, and my body. Most of all, I periodically heard different voices through the machine, especially at night , I got waked up so many times because of those voices. Most frequently, I heard Hank(Henry) Rumbarger's voice. As far as I know, Henry Rumbarger is piping department manager of Kellogg, Brown & Root, a subsidiary of Halliburton. He also was my supervisor while I was a pipe stress engineer at M.W. Kellogg from 1989 to 1991. The attacks and voices made you feel threatened, disgusting, and annoying and, ultimately made you feel you have to work for him under any circumstance. I do not know why Hank(Henry) Rumbarger hated me so much, but I do believe that, most likely, he know something regarding this matter. I do not think it is good business practice, even though I do not have a job available to me. I do hope he can call me if he know anything about this matter as I called him to tell him what I experienced before I wrote my first letter.

I did not tell a lot of details. I do believe, hopefully, that, someday, someone will tell the truth, who did those cruel things. The technology should be used to benefit people, not used to threaten people. I just pray that this kind of practice will stop, and goodness will prevail. Thank you for your time. God bless you.

Sincerely,
Charlie Wang, P.E.

Letter 5:

Charlie Wang, P.E.
[ADDRESS AND PHONE DELETED]

October 1, 2003

To whom it may concern:

It was January 19, February 9, and September 3, I e-mailed my previous three letters.
I decided to write this letter, because I know more about how capable this machine can perform, I feet that I have responsibility to do so, and I did get encouragements to go ahead from the machine through it's sound.

while I was reading, playing computer games- Reversi, Checkers, and Minesweeper- at home, and play tennis at Grants Lake subdivision tennis court and Sweetwater country club(play tennis tournament for charity contribution), this kind of high-tech machine were attacking my eyes, my brain, and my body constantly. Especially, this machine waked me at night so many times every night, doing all kinds of damaging to my body; it also make your skin so sting and etch that you constantly lost focuses on what your are doing every day . Those kinds of behavior are terrorisms and should have no place to exist in this free country, but the fact is that, unless you have very strong will, you have to yield, which means that you are constantly under attacking that makes you feel threatening, irritating, and disgusting, and that you have to do whatever the machine told you to do. Just image if this kinds of machines were controlled by a bad group of people in the near future, what kind of the world we have to live in. Therefore we have to find out what are the truth by calling, e-mails, writing letters, or voting to let our representatives know how serious we are on this matter. This is a very, very high-tech machine (or machines), and I do believe that it (or they) is controlled by a group of people, and I also do believe, hopefully, that some of them are good people, because I did get encouragements to write this letter. I have experienced so much pain not just on my body, but also on my relationship with my family, relatives, and friends(?), but I do believe that I did right things to stand up to tell what happened to me, even though I fail to find out what are the truth. I do believe that some people want to tell the truth, maybe, just like me, without enough power, the truth can not prevail. Is this what American about ?, I still believe that the people of this country are bigger than that, it will keep changing, changing for the better. I do believe that evil will be beaten by the goodness, the faith through Jesus will prevail.

I still constantly heard that the names were called out from the machine, which told me they control the machine and urged me to say so. I do not want to identify those people in this letter - because this matter become so serious- but I do hope that FBI already started investigate the case, publishing companies are allowed publishing those letters, and big companies, especially high-tech companies, were aware of how capable this machine is. This machine should not be used for controlling people for business interests.

I have sent my previous letters to Department of Justice, senators, FBI, media companies, big industry companies, churches, attorneys, and, also, United Nation. I will keep sending this letter to them, and then, I have to tell myself, if it is still in vain, I did what I can do and this group of people is too big for me to find out the truth, and maybe, just maybe, this is what this country is about, but, finally, I still will keep sending those letters to FBI, and I will never call the persons, Henry(Hank) Rumbarger and other persons, called out from the machine for employment purpose. If any attorney is willing to take the case, I do know some people may be involved in this case. Thank you for your time and God bless you.

Sincerely,
Charlie Wang, P.E.

Doubtful... (3, Interesting)

JoeLinux (20366) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398152)

Does anyone actually think this is actually gonna happen? Sun has always impressed me as a Microsoft wannabe. The only reason they are currently allying themselves with Linux is because "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

'course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

Re:Doubtful... (1)

Lamont (3347) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398242)

I completely agree. I haven't seen Sun do anything that leads me to believe they are really for open systems.

Re:Doubtful... (5, Interesting)

Frymaster (171343) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398338)

I haven't seen Sun do anything that leads me to believe they are really for open systems.

then perhaps you should take a look at experimentalstuff.com [experimentalstuff.com] - sun's site for experimental code. lots of it is opensource including an entire operating system (chorus os [experimentalstuff.com] ).

looks like a committment to opensource to me.

Re:Doubtful... (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8398358)

*Cough* OpenOffice *Cough*

Re:Doubtful... (2, Insightful)

Erratio (570164) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398442)

What about Star/OpenOffice? I think one of the big things you need to make sure you take into account is the fact that Sun is a a large business which is supported by some of their products like Java. It seems as though Sun is very open to the idea of open-source, but at the same time from a business perspective, they probably question the changes to their ability to function as the type of business they are if one of their flagship products is basically taken away from them. Most companies which actively pursue open-source are significantly smaller than Sun with, therefore, less overhead. And I can't think of any of the large corporations that support Linux (like IBM or Corel) that have actually opened up a technology which is a major source of income for them.

Yup, yup, yup. (1)

Saeed al-Sahaf (665390) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398309)

This is so true. I love my Sun SparcStation, I've enjoyed working with Solaris, but Sun is just as closed as M$. This is one of the things that bothers me about the push to Java. I see little political difference between Java and .NET, it's all proprietary, so why do we still love Sun but hate M$, they are the same.

Re:Doubtful... (5, Insightful)

egomaniac (105476) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398379)

Does anyone actually think this is actually gonna happen? Sun has always impressed me as a Microsoft wannabe. The only reason they are currently allying themselves with Linux is because "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

Oh, bullshit.

When Microsoft wants to include a new technology (such as their web browser), they integrate it in such a way that you are forced to use it, can't replace it with something else, and end up using it for unrelated functions whether you want to or not. And half the interface is undocumented and inaccessible to people outside of Microsoft.

Sure, you can download and install your own web browser, but IE is always there, sucking up resources, no matter what you do.

When Sun wants to integrate something new into Java, the JCP develops a standard API for accessing it. Sun develops or licenses their own implementation of it, but allows you to use any implementation you choose so long as it implements the standard. Other VM distributors are free to replace Sun's implementation with their own. In fact, it's remarkably easy to be completely unaware of which implementation you are using.

If Microsoft had developed a standard web browsing API which allowed you to swap out IE in favor of Mozilla, and allowed computer manufacturers the right to do so on preinstalled machines if they chose, nobody would be complaining about the IE integration.

Well, that's exactly how Sun would have chosen to do it, based on their track record. They make it remarkably easy to swap out portions of the runtime library with alternate implementations.

Linux + Java = Profit!! (4, Informative)

Xeed (308294) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398154)

A similar article can also be found at The Globe [globetechnology.com] .

With the Linux community behind it, open-sourcing Java is going to mean a big leap for software development. Although they are worried about open source meaning zero revenue, this isn't necessarily the case. [informationweek.com]

Re:Linux + Java = Profit!! (3, Interesting)

ackthpt (218170) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398237)

Linux + OS Java is not something a certain proprietary company would like to see. Really does present a dynamite combination the more I think about it.

Re:Linux + Java = Profit!! (1)

Mantorp (142371) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398294)

not similar, but the same

Re:Linux + Java = Profit!! (3, Insightful)

saigon_from_europe (741782) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398305)

Well, they already give you Java for free. If they make it open source, they might cut development costs, and also get much better attitude from community. I don't see any reason why not to go OS. They still could control it - no one will prevent them to add any new feature.

Re:Linux + Java = Won't happen (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8398436)

The reason Sun won't let go is because they know Java can't stand on it's own in the Free Softeware arena, where things are judged on technical merits rather than marketing pressure ...

It would die a quick death without coporate backing ...

Why a "Big Leap" exactly? (1)

Petersko (564140) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398467)

[i]With the Linux community behind it, open-sourcing Java is going to mean a big leap for software development.[/i][br][br]A big leap for who? Perhaps for the open source community - but not for Sun or Java. Why exactly do you think the open source community will cause Java to leap forward?

My perception is that Sun's development schedule outpaces that of any major open source product I've examined.

A Question (3, Interesting)

IWantMoreSpamPlease (571972) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398158)

At one point in time, IBM was the leader in all things computing, and would act as they saw fit.

Now a days, they are for open standards, helping out other firms, investing in open source, etc etc etc.

What changed, specifically? Mind you, I'm all for the change (it's very good in my opinion) and they seem to be doing the right things, but is this a response to Microsoft and its ways, or did the change come internally?

Re:A Question (5, Insightful)

pubjames (468013) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398199)

What changed, specifically?

IBM are being very intelligent. They are moving with the market.

It used to be that everyone in the IT world was closed and proprietary. OSS is changing that, and IBM know it. IBM are going with the flow, not fighting it.

Re:A Question (4, Insightful)

Wudbaer (48473) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398310)

Also IBM has not too much to lose. Sure, they produce and sell a lot of software. But they are still one of the leading hardware companies and are moving more and more towards a consulting and service oriented business model. So what do they have to lose ? Some unsold AIX lincenses ? DB2, Domino and WebSphere can or will soon be able to run as well on a RS6K machine (or what they are called this week) running Linux than on a RS6K machine running AIX. Sure, AIX still has a lot to offer Linux does not, but for that they still will move a machine with AIX.

Sun suffers from ex babe/stud syndrome (1)

elwinc (663074) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398425)

> IBM are being very intelligent. They are moving with the market.

Yep. Now contrast IBM's behavior with Sun's. Sun is suffering from "ex babe syndrome" (or perhaps ex studmuffin syndrome; all explained below). Sure, they have good software, but the market prefers Windows, Linux, and OSX. Arguably, they have decent hardware, but the market prefers Intel, AMD, and PowerPC. Java is the only thing Sun has that's still attractive.

Sun needs to grok that it's pretty much lost its attractiveness -- those who don't grok their changes tend to suffer from ex babe/stud syndrome and it's not a pretty thing. It occurs to me that Sun has the same managment it had back in the days when it was attractive. Perhaps a change in management would help the organization grok its new circumstances and deal appropriately.

Re:A Question (4, Insightful)

segmond (34052) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398287)

Now a days, they are for open standards? The same guys that opened up the PC architecture, right? in early 80's or wait, say 20 years ago? As far as I know, that is the biggest open standard look how it changed the world, look at the companies it built. Whenever people talk about how IBM acts as they see fit, it is usually history lessons that they read about the 60's and 70's...

Re:A Question (4, Informative)

Usquebaugh (230216) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398407)

Hah,

opened the architecture, thay had ISA ripped from them, I think Compaq cleaned room the BIOS which led to the clones. MCA, remember that. Token ring. SNA.

IBM in the 80s was at it's most arrogant. They had beaten everybody including the DOJ. The salesmen were insufferable. Then M$ changed the landscape by beating IBM at their own game.

Only in the last five years has IBM embraced Open Standards. Even now one of their hardware lines is still very closed, AS/400.

Re:A Question (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8398319)

This is easy. IBM sees the future of their business to be not hardware and software, but services.

Open standards makes it easier for them to compete with other service organization, because they don't have to worry as much about vendors locking service in with propreitary infrastructure. They want to be able to roll out end-to-end solutions too, but there are too few all-IBM shops out there to were this can be their only gameplan.

Re:A Question (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8398340)

We had one of the VP's from IBM as a guest speaker at one of our ACM meetings last year.

He was pretty critical of Microsoft ;)

Whether it is an internal thing or a reaction(probably both), I got the impression that IBM is moving towards being a service-provider, rather than a product-creator.

Both open source and free software (as in beer AND/OR as in speech, doesn't matter), in that context, make plenty of sense.

Re:A Question (1)

Average_Joe_Sixpack (534373) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398342)

What changed, specifically? Mind you, I'm all for the change (it's very good in my opinion) and they seem to be doing the right things, but is this a response to Microsoft and its ways, or did the change come internally?

They became a 'services oriented' company instead of an innovator in hardware and software. Why spend all that money in R&D when you can take advantage of someone else's hardwork for free. And since many of the talented product engineers have either retired or have been outsourced, they are fully dependent on the OpenSource 'movement.' HP/Compaq is doing the same thing ... that's what happens when you let the Marketing and Sales people control the company.

Re:A Question (3, Informative)

vidarh (309115) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398478)

You're right they became a services oriented company, but IBM still has one of the largest corporate research arms on the planet... Claiming they are "fully dependent" on the open source movement is pure bullshit.

Re:A Question (1)

TinyManCan (580322) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398484)

You sir are an idoiot

If sales people were running the company, they would be pushing closed proprietary solutions, because you can sell them to a captive audience, and lock people in.

Re:A Question (4, Interesting)

PCM2 (4486) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398346)

One way IBM adapts to today's computing climate is by morphing into more of a service organization than merely a software vendor. So heterogeneous systems, multiple implementations based on open standards, and interoperability at the enterprise level all add up to more problems for IBM's professional services organization to fix, ergo more revenue.

Re:A Question (4, Interesting)

HoldmyCauls (239328) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398392)

I think it's humility. I remember reading on here an article about the CEO of IBM chastising Microsoft for, essentially, being too big for its britches, and specifically saying that they themselves had learned from their own similar mistake. If John Nash was right, the best way to succeed is to succeed together. I think IBM feels empathically as well as intelligently that that is so. Microsoft may in the future, as well.

If the open development and open business models take hold, I think we may see a paradigm shift in industry (though possibly only in software) where no one makes a product, but each (company, community, individual) may add something or change something, and if it takes off well and the resources are there, they will be compensated.

People who say that this model won't work forget (or maybe never learned!) that people are often noticed for their abilities despite the fact that they may not be employed by a company in that field, or may not be particularly well-versed in it, but because they can still understand a particular problem and solve it well.

This is my hope, at least.

Re:A Question (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8398393)

IBM used to be a monopoly and went through anti-trust litigation much like MS did. Today, as a result of complying with the results of that litigation they have grown themselves and the industry as a whole. So the economics of it all shows that IBM can survive in an open enviornment and in fact florish. This is why they have changed. It just benifits them.

Why doesn't IBM open source it's own VM? (5, Informative)

GGardner (97375) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398159)

IBM has a less well known Java VM for embedded systems called j9. This was developed in a clean-room way. If IBM wants an Open Source, commercial quality VM, there's nothing stopping them from opening this one.

Re:Why doesn't IBM open source it's own VM? (1, Interesting)

ave19 (149657) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398209)

Wouldn't a patent stop them from providing any Java like technology, even if it was developed in a clean room?

I'm sure Sun has patented parts of Java that would make it difficult for IBM to go their own way.

-ave

Re:Why doesn't IBM open source it's own VM? (4, Interesting)

gl4ss (559668) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398219)

maybe that's exactly what they would like to do?

*IBM is ready to provide technical resources and code*

Re:Why doesn't IBM open source it's own VM? (5, Insightful)

pragone (756766) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398241)

Perhaps they acknowledge that if a standard is desired, they should contribute to a popular JVM rather than keep working on one themselves. I think that's a good way of thinking for OS.

Re:Why doesn't IBM open source it's own VM? (4, Interesting)

tolan-b (230077) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398404)

The VM isn't the problem, it's the API code. Which is why the GNU Classpath project is so important.

Not said... (5, Funny)

ackthpt (218170) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398167)

Hi Rob,

[Open Source Java or you risk relegating it, while .NET on commodity hardware gobbles up both the development and hardware markets to Sun's eventual doom. Work with us and Java will be strong as many eyes and hands (ours included) clean it up and expand it where need and demand lay. Ignore this request and we'll pick it up at your bankruptcy auction.

Regards,
Rod

Re:Not said... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8398348)

Rod,

Penis in ear = party all night

sincerly,
Rob

Open letter (4, Interesting)

gid13 (620803) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398181)

As much as I love open source and even openness in other forms (like letters), I can't help but think that open letters tend to be more about making news than actually seriously expecting things to work the proposed way.

Nice. (5, Insightful)

NegativeK (547688) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398187)

This is a win-win situation for IBM. If Sun goes for it, IBM gets it's hand in the development of an open implementation of Java. If Sun doesn't, IBM can say that they tried. Either way, IBM appeals to the open source community.

As for Sun, it's almost lose, lose. If Sun goes for it, they lose complete control over Java, which is a cash crop for them. If they don't, they look stingy to the open source community, and alienate a lot of us.

Poor sun, nice IBM. .

Re:Nice. (4, Insightful)

nsayer (86181) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398347)

If Sun goes for it, they lose complete control over Java, which is a cash crop for them.

If they dual license it, then they get to retain complete control over the commercial fork of it. Sun would be unique in that no other entity would have the rights that Sun does to use Java other than under the GPL.

I think that would keep Sun pretty firmly in the driver's seat.

If IBM is serious about this and Sun refuses to play ball, then I'd be surprised if IBM didn't suddenly decide to champion the Kaffe project [kaffe.org] or perhaps even start their own open Java system.

IBM, being, well, IBM, will have an open Java one way or another, if that's really what they want.

Re:Nice. (2, Interesting)

dnoyeb (547705) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398412)

I can't see Java as a cash crop for Sun. I am sure there is MUCH more money being made in services surrounding Java than in any direct licensing of JVMs.

Sun is too stubborn or ignorant to see this. Or simply they fear they can not compete.

If I held Sun shares I would be voting that CEO out.

Re:Nice. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8398423)

How is Java a cash crop for Sun? No one except Sun and IBM have commercial VM implementations anyway, and who on earth would buy SunONE?

Apart from certifying app servers as J2EE compatible, I don't see sun making any money off Java anyway.

Opening it up would help - support JBoss as the reference implementation and de-facto J2EE app server, and sell commercial support for JBoss!

If JBoss had Sun supporting it, it's usage and takeup would soar.

And if SUN dies in process, so much the better! (1)

melted (227442) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398439)

You hit the nail on the head, man. IBM is trying to drown SUN.

yrty (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8398189)

ytrhgfh

why am I rated as Offtopic? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8398261)

why Off topic?
I am not offtopic, because I am inside the topic.
If I was outside the topic, then I may was off topic

So please turn me on topic immediatly!

I suspect that Sun is likely to request this (3, Insightful)

toesate (652111) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398195)

and IBM may likely do it, to put their AIX stuffs behind Linux, given what they have already done.

It makes a lot of business sense for IBM to get open source Java, especially for their application server space.

Does anybody (4, Funny)

AbbyNormal (216235) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398211)

else keep thinking about LOTR, when they think of Sun and Java.

Sun being the Golem and Java being the "ring".

"My Precccciousssss...Myyyy Precious".

Re:Does anybody (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8398341)

I was thinking that this is more like a pick up
line. I unsuccessfully tried it on the hot
secretary.

Dear Hot Secretary,

I would like to extend an offer to help you open
those legs. This offer would be mutually beneficial
and can only end in a wonderful union.

Sincerely,
Geeky Loser


I really wish I had the guts.

No, its only you (0, Troll)

Stone316 (629009) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398356)

and your weird.

What about gjc? (4, Interesting)

sleepingsquirrel (587025) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398222)

IBM doesn't needs Sun's help/permission. Why don't they start to contribute to the already existing free java stuff like gjc [gnu.org] and GNU Classpath [gnu.org] ?

Re:What about gjc? (1)

saigon_from_europe (741782) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398394)

Why not all of us (ok, I do not code in any Java-like project) join in one big project? Why to spread our efforts and allways to lag behind the "official" version?

Sometimes java's features are like they are because it was the easiest way for Sun to make it that way. If you start differently, sometimes it is extremely hard to maintain 100% compatibility no matter how unimportant piece of code it is. I believe that is the one of the reasons why all mentioned projects lag behind official Java release.

Re:What about gjc? (4, Insightful)

vidarh (309115) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398450)

IBM already has it's own Java compiler: Jikes.

IBM doesn't NEED Sun's help with providing the software, but without a commitment from Sun IBM would be in the same situation with them as with Microsoft: They can change the specs whenever they feel like it to keep their competitive advantage over other tools.

Frankly I see IBM's comments as an ingenious PR move. Either Sun opens Java, and it will be a great PR win for IBM and great for business, or Sun doesn't in which case it's a big PR win for IBM towards customers (look guys, we're promoting open standards, but Sun just doesn't want to play ball - do you REALLY want to get tied in to a company like that?)

ESR: not so bad after all? (5, Insightful)

Hrolf (564645) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398230)

So does this mean the Slashdotters who claimed that ESR damaged the open source community via his letter to Sun will now retract their views? It seems we're closer to an open source Java as a result of his opening salvo (little gun-toting humor there) than we were before he wrote his letter.

But on the other hand, (0, Flamebait)

bsDaemon (87307) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398366)

we're set back that much farther from getting rid of java all together in favour of developing something that is like, well, i dunno, fast and good?

Re:ESR: not so bad after all? (5, Funny)

hambonewilkins (739531) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398389)

Eric! What have you been up to?!

Sorry, forgot, I'll just check your webpage for info.

Re:ESR: not so bad after all? (1)

Liselle (684663) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398415)

So does this mean the Slashdotters who claimed that ESR damaged the open source community via his letter to Sun will now retract their views? It seems we're closer to an open source Java as a result of his opening salvo (little gun-toting humor there) than we were before he wrote his letter.
It would seem so, but it's worth noting that being closer to open Java today doesn't necessarily mean that ESR's letter wasn't damaging to the Open Source community. Tne end doesn't always justify the means, especially when the means can hurt your reputation.

Licensing issues (5, Interesting)

MAXOMENOS (9802) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398234)

Q: What's to stop Sun and IBM from open-sourcing the JDKs they have now? A: Third-party IP. Odds are, both Sun's and IBM's JDKs are chock full of third-party IP. Even the stuff that IBM implements in a "clean room way" probably contains IP that IBM licensed from somebody else. One could interpret IBM's gesture as offering to produce parts of the JDK that are free from IP encumbrances.

Listen to Ganesh Prashad (5, Informative)

IGnatius T Foobar (4328) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398240)

Everyone's read ESR's open letters, but the real, convincing, extremely well-written case was done by Ganesh Prashad in a Linux Today editorial yesterday [linuxtoday.com] . Ganesh lays it out in terms Sun can understand, without ESR's controversial style. This article is a must read for us, but it's also something that should be absolutely wallpapered in Scott McNealy's office, and maybe his home too.

Ganesh very clearly demonstrates how Sun will lose J2EE's 'lingua franca of business logic' status to .NET if they don't let the community galvanize and help out, and the only way to do that is to open source the Java core.

Re:Listen to Ganesh Prashad (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8398343)

wasn't that article torn to shreds by /.-ers yesterday. I hardley find Ganesh's arguments convincing. It would be good for Sun to provde a OSS like license once Java is a real public standard.

This just in... (-1, Funny)

thepeete (189121) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398253)

SCO has bought the rights to the J in Java and is suing IBM for trying to help making Java open source...

Re:This just in... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8398380)

man, that's just sad, you couldn't even make a joke using SCO funny.

Missing the point (4, Insightful)

TheRealMindChild (743925) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398254)

I think most people, and obviously IBM, are missing some key points to why Sun treats Java how it does.

Things are tight fisted because Sun wants a solid, CONSISTANT platform. This was a MAJOR REASON for the lawsuit that they fought and WON against Microsoft and their VM implementation.

Opening it up not only kills that idea (anyone can alter the platform specifications for whatever selfish reasons), but it would undermine all of the fight they have put up at this point.

Re:Missing the point (4, Insightful)

CaptnMArk (9003) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398315)

You are sugesting a fork in Java development.

This will only happen (in a bad way) if Sun are neglecting Java development and not doing things people want.

(I do personally belive Java could stand some cleaning up, but it doesn't have to happen overnight)

Re:Missing the point (4, Insightful)

DavidNWelton (142216) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398322)

The code can be open without the specification and the name being open. You can download Apache and hack it, but you can't call it Apache, for instance. Same goes for TeX.

I totally agree (1)

elbarrio (592330) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398387)

Wow good thing I read the posts before I wrote my own... I was just about to say the same thing. The problem with letting people develop java however they want is that it allows people to develop system speciffic java amongst other things . This is exactly what Microsoft tried to do, and why Sun sued them. Think about it, if Java had been open sourced to begin with, then Sun wouldn't have been able to sue Microsoft, and we'd probably have a whole body of Java code out there that only runs on Windows. As of now we have guarantee, if it's written in Java it will run anywhere.

With the eclipse project, Sun felt left out... (3, Insightful)

expro (597113) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398257)

With the eclipse project, Sun felt left out. Now, it is time for them to put up or shut up, and if they refuse and IBM decides to open source their own stuff regardless, Sun has no one to blame but themselves.

Whoa... (5, Funny)

bersl2 (689221) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398260)

Did ESR just bitch, and things actually happened?

I'm impressed; unless he has an "in," of course...

IBM and Sun... Open Source??? (-1, Offtopic)

Saeed al-Sahaf (665390) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398265)

IBM... Sun... Love... Hate... Love... Hate... Ahhhhhhh! My head is exploading!

MySQL License (4, Interesting)

attobyte (20206) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398271)

Could Sun license it under some terms like MySQL where you could deveople opensource projects with out buying a license. If you want to keep your product closed you would have to buy a license from Sun. I know they are very two different beasts so that is why I am asking.

No freakin' way . . . (1, Interesting)

PeeAitchPee (712652) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398276)

Sun will go out kicking and screaming rather than open source its last remaining piece of IP that has any value. They missed the boat with the evolution of cheap Wintel processors and Linux -- no reason to think they'll act any differently here.

NTG offers to help Goatse open up anus! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8398285)

As you may or many not have known, the infamous website Goatse.cx [goatse.cx] was Shut down! [kuro5hin.org] .

The neo trolling group was formed 6 days ago to avenge this, and we WILL trollerize the world until Goatse has returned!

To help us, join the Neo Trolling Group by adding "Neo Trollng Group" as your friend [slashdot.org] . (Hi spacecowboy, you know you hate us).

OSS Support (4, Interesting)

laymil (14940) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398290)

As the days and months go by, it really seems as though IBM is serious about its support of OSS. Is this truly the case? Most likely. If you examine the past, all the PC software IBM has produced has either failed miserably or been defeated in the market by other software.
Perhaps IBM has realized that an investment into OSS is more cost efficient than paying to develop their own closed source software.

Opening Java systematically would make it more appealing to a wider user base - No longer would it's major uses have to be confined to web, Sun, or CS classes at major universities.

Sun made a nice start on Java, but like most closed, standardized software, a better alternative could probably be written.

Kudos to IBM for their support. Hopefully Sun will accept their offer and a better, OSS version of Java will be released.

Brilliant! (3, Funny)

JediTrainer (314273) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398313)

Now we can get IBM to open up Java's code like they opened SCO's!

(heavy on the sarcasm here - don't take me too seriously)

Open source Java already exists. (4, Informative)

fdragon (138768) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398335)

What about the already existing Open Source Java implimentations?

GNU Compiler for Java [gnu.org] is available from the FSF. There is also work to make a Mozilla plugin for using GCJ to allow Java Applets to run.

Kaffe [kaffe.org] PersonalJava 1.1 compliant Java.

Kaffe once shipped with RedHat. GCJ currently ships with most major linux distributions right now.

ESR... (0, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8398376)

Does ESR do anything nowadays other than open the issue of pressuring people? He's like an anti-RIAA. Just as annoying, but the force goes in the opposite vector.

PHP (1)

starshot (750940) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398378)

PHP is already open source, and is quite succesful, the PHP Group manages to stay profitable at least. As I can download software to run my own java or php freely as an individual, im not sure what the huge deal is?

What I hate about Java.. (-1, Troll)

FrankNFurter (89904) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398402)

...are people who use it in useless applets like on this page [geocities.com] .

HELLO SPAMBOT (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8398430)

fpbecker@web.de

Open Source dangers... (5, Interesting)

brasten (699342) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398452)

McNealy addressed this issue year or so ago...

The problem they're afraid of is Microsoft embracing & extending Java. The ability that Sun had to sue Microsoft and force them to cease their modifications would no longer exist.

Now imagine Bill Gates at home in his Medina mansion.. (only 10 minutes away from here actually... sad...). Everywhere he tries to push .NET and his vision, Java's there. Java's beating him, or right behind him, on almost every front, and for the better part of the last few years, he's been unable to combat this enemy with any major success. Now imagine someone hands him the source code and tells him he can fork it however it wants. What would he do?

I don't know. And for the time being, I'm fine not knowing...

The Death Of Java (-1, Insightful)

beforewisdom (729725) | more than 10 years ago | (#8398459)

If this succeeds Eric Raymond & IBM will have done what Microsoft could not have done. Destroy Java.

SUN's stewardship has prevented Java from being co-opted and the multiplatform nature from being destroyed.

If JAVA is open sourced it will eventually be bastardized into incompatiable versions.

C was supposed to be portable and multiplatform when it started off as well.

Eric Raymond is just plain wrong and IBM is using this to pressure its rival SUN into doing something stupid.

Steve

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