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michael posted more than 10 years ago | from the last-one-out-turn-off-the-lights dept.

Programming 755

An anonymous reader writes ", which is part of, is now outsourcing some of their writing to India. The funny thing is, the editor claims it's not as much about money as because he's 'getting a better interface with producers of the content.' He claims CNet isn't giving up control, but if they're the publisher, and he's the editor, and they can't hire and manage their own writers, why shouldn't the Indians just put up their own website to replace CNet, and we can all read what they write direct? I mean, we're all going to be buying software direct from Indian companies soon, so why not?" Newsforge and Slashdot are both part of OSDN. OSDN also runs sites like which are more-or-less direct competitors of

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Outsourcing (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618327)

Outsourcing. What's it all about? Is it good, or is it whack?

Ouch (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618329)

Someone sounds bitter.

3rd pist fucking homos (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618342)

niggers are trying to get into my ass! help!

Re:3rd pist fucking homos (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618356)

Too late! I'ma abuse you tonight boy!

heh, funny thing is.. (4, Interesting)

fizz (88042) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618347)

When i worked for featureprice, most of the non phone based technical support was done from india. They are some smart people, but they are lacking in alot of things we take for granted. Our boss always happily let us americans know that he could hire 3 or 4 of them to each 1 of us. Hows that for making you take your job seriously? :) Too bad hes a bastard and should be rotting in jail as hes a scamming prick

Re:heh, funny thing is.. (2, Funny)

LordK3nn3th (715352) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618382)

Your boss is Darl McBride?!? Oh you said featureprice...

Re:heh, funny thing is.. (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618417)

did you let you boss know that indian managers were cheaper?

Re:heh, funny thing is.. (3, Interesting)

ebuck (585470) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618447)

Non-phone based support might be one thing, but never underestimate the power of communication.

Yesterday, my stepfather had a problem with his email. From his end of the phone, he's not sure if the people trying to help him even understand what he was complaining about.

His resolution? He's now looking for a new ISP, and perhaps his own domain name so he won't rely on his ISP for email. Some things you can live without for a few days, but when you have a small business like his, ability to send and receive email is critical.

Re:Chinese and Indians outperform you in college (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618542)

Check their degrees ... and their grades

language (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618350)

he is more comfortable conversing in tamil and hindi

FUCK (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618351)

take that FCC!

Re:FUCK (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618361)

This isnt the television, or radio dumb fuck.

Oh man (3, Interesting)

iswm (727826) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618354)

First developers (Or many tech related jobs) and now writers.. This is starting to get really scary, especially for people my age; I'm still in high school and it's going to be a few years before I can get a _real_ job, and at this rate it's going to be hard to find any local ones. This really needs to stop, or at least be done in moderation, it's getting out of hand.

Re:Oh man (2, Funny)

abscondment (672321) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618414)

yeah, pretty soon we'll drive to mcdonald's and they'll put us on a flight to india so we can pick up our outsourced burgers.

Re:Oh man (1)

LoRdTAW (99712) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618474)

More like the person on the other end of the drive through speaker will be in india.

Re:Oh man (2, Funny)

DarkHelmet (120004) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618501)

Outsourced burgers in India? From what? Holy cows?

Guess you didn't think that one through ;)

Serious Suggestion (5, Insightful)

Ieshan (409693) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618464)

If you're in highschool, here's a serious suggestion from someone who's about to enter the workforce from college-

Find some skills other than computing.

No, seriously. Computing is out-sourceable, the rest of your skillset + computing is not. If you speak Hindi and Chinese AND can program C++, you might be a great project leader for one of these overseas projects. If you have a great handle on economics and business AND can code perl, you might be the person who they need to run their software division, because you'll have an eye for both the cash and the technical. If you're a science dork (like I am), you've got an instant-in with any professor that runs his lab using any sort of technology, because not only did you get an A in Genetics, but you can really understand how the PCR Sequencer works.

If Software Geeks in highschool would turn their computing prowess into A marketable skill instead of their only marketable skill, they'll have a much better time on the job market.

Just the way it's worked out for me.

By the way: Perl for the Perseus Project (, since I'm a Greek / Latin Major, and Visual Basic in the Avian Cognition Lab, (, where I do research on Avian Cognition and Concept formation (coz I'm a Psych Major too).

Re:Serious Suggestion (1)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618553)

first off IT cannot be outsourced ... they cant have Isma in India fix dave in marketing's laptop. they HAVE to have local IT. if you are IT with programming skills, now you just became a VERY valuable employee... and insider writing company inside vertical apps... voila... you cant be outsourced as the indian code outsourcers know nothing about your company's operating proceedures and needs and therefore cannot write and maintain the fleet of mission critical apps you can write.

simple solution.

Re:Oh man (0, Flamebait)

catch23 (97972) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618482)

Become an actor! At least they probably won't outsource hollywood actors to India.... unless the general population starts to enjoy sing and dance musicals instead of action movies....

Before you get all worked up (5, Informative)

Magnus Pym (237274) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618496)

read what the Indians think of their own abilities here [] .

BTW, "Coolie" is a word that roughly translates into menial laborer.


Re:Oh man (5, Insightful)

XorNand (517466) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618523)

Um... sure... and what should be done exactly? Protectionism doesn't work. Period. And why do you assume that it's a rightious thing to do? A techie in the Philippines makes about ten times less than an American doing the same job. Do you think that this is equitable? I personally think that Filipinos/Indians are being used. Basic economic theory states that as more job opportunies open up in those countries, the higher the median salaries will be. That means a *lot* of people in the world are going to have much better lives. At some point equilibrium will be reached and the outsourcing will wane significantly. As an American techie, I'm not at all worried about my career. There will always be work here for people like me who are creative, resourceful and motivated. Hopefully that means that much of the chaff in IT will be eliminated; I'll be working with more knowledgable people in my field--the opportunists who got into IT for the quick buck will be off chasing their next white rabbit. All in all, seems like a win-win situation.

Re:Oh man (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618573)

That's why the jobs are outsourced in the first place, it's cheap labor. Why pay someone $15 an hour when you can pay them less than minimum wage for the same end result? The point is there are less American jobs because corporations can get away with getting cheap labor elseware. If some law was pased requiring corporations to pay the same for Indian labor, then they wouldn't have any reason to outsource in the fisrt place.

Re:Oh man (4, Insightful)

BiggerIsBetter (682164) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618528)

Get a trade. They can't outsource your plumbing.

Learn to be a SysAdmin and do repairs. (2, Informative)

Felinoid (16872) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618566)

The jobs can be outsourced BUT at some point someone has to actually touch the computers located inside the main offices.

Also when it comes to hardware repairs not only dose the corprate IT force need to be phisicly present to make the repairs this is also true in the computer shops however be prepaired for thies jobs to become the tech equivlent of McDonalds drive throughs.

Also have back up skills. No matter how diverse your technical skill remember that with most of the jobs being outsourced the programmers and phone support people will retrain to the jobs that are left and will leave fewer opennings for you.

And advice for any generation DO NOT go for the "HOT" jobs becouse when you graduate you'll be fighting everyone for those jobs plus the market will have evolved a few steps just out of hipness and media attention.
Look for fun & well paying yet less visable jobs. Like industry jernalists and look at the trends such as... Ahem.. Blog and Forum media. (Slashdot).

Someone suggested learning Hindi and being the project cordinator. There are probably a whole bunch of possable jobs created by outsourcing alone. Look into the outsourcing industry.

But have a wide range of skills and get some non-tech skills as well.
Translating Anime and Manga sounds like fun....

Fags of homo die (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618362)

The post of non engrish of mother fuckers of the engaging in floor bugle which is not inhales anus of the tacos

"All"? (1)

John Hasler (414242) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618367)

> I mean, we're all going to be buying software
> direct from Indian companies soon,

Speak for yourself.

Re:"All"? (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618510)

Software pirate!! ;)

If outsourcing upsets you... (1)

Rick Zeman (15628) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618368)

...and you can plainly identify it as such, boycott the product. Better yet, boycott it and let them know why and then badmouth them to everyone you know.

Re:If outsourcing upsets you... (2, Insightful)

aled (228417) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618405)

What happened to that free markets thing?

Re:If outsourcing upsets you... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618430)

Free markets aren't. They're controlled by the highest bidders.

Re:If outsourcing upsets you... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618433)

Uh, a boycott _is_ a free market technique.

If there's no demand for foreign goods companies will be discouraged to make them.

Re:If outsourcing upsets you... (1)

Rares Marian (83629) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618445)

Jobs are not a commodity.

Re:If outsourcing upsets you... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618469)

They are under capitalism.

Re:If outsourcing upsets you... (2, Interesting)

Rick Zeman (15628) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618493)

What happened to that free markets thing?

First, I said "if it upsets you" and secondly, free trade implies some sort of equality of trade partners. There's no such thing as free trade with China because they aren't a free market (Communist state with near-virtual slave labor), nor with India as they don't have a modern economy. Free trade is only "free" with an equality of partners playing by equal rules. For example, the US vs. Europe.
We're also free to boycott who we want.

Re:If outsourcing upsets you... (2, Insightful)

aled (228417) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618548)

Then how are third worlders supposed to get a modern economy if not competing?
Here in South America we are hard pressed to sign the ALCA and open our markets, but USA won't open the markets were we could be competing. It's a one way openess. And we are democratic countries, but we are poor.

bohica. (1, Insightful)

larry bagina (561269) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618370)

Newsforge and Slashdot are both part of OSDN. OSDN also runs sites like which are more-or-less direct competitors of

OSDN also supports Indian outsourcing.

Can't I just outsource my education? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618372)

Can't I just spend $4000 a year training these people and collect a portion of their salary? I figure a few of these will allow me to live a richly life. I'll even donate one to the open source community.

Coming soon Indows and Inux (4, Funny)

randomErr (172078) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618378)

Soon you can buy the new Indian operating systems Indows XP for the desktop and Inux for the server market!

You bastard. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618404)


("You owe me a new keyboard", because of all the beverage I spewed while laughing.)

money (1)

AnonymousCowheart (646429) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618379)

"it's not as much about money "
funny, thats about all the article mentions!
anyway, they're talking about freelance work-I'm not in the buisiness, but isn't freelance work pretty much where the purchaser states their price?

Re:money (1)

Ironsides (739422) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618426)

Indeed, Baldazo said, one of the freelancers whose work is being cut lives in India, which is certainly a perfect piece of irony to use as the ending to this story, is it not?

I hate to spoil the endint, but I think that quote pretty much debunks his claim it isn't about money.

Savings vs Return (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618381)

On the savings front, he said he expects "a little bit more" work per dollar.

Well, sure. When you pay them $1, it's only natural to expect 3 days worth of work from them.

Why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618385)

I was going to post an ontopic comment, but then I saw that those types of posts were all going to be outsourced to India.

Have a candy bar, my fat friend.

Why don't we just hand *EVERYTHING* over to India? (-1, Troll)

borgheron (172546) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618386)

That way we can sit on our fat American arses and let the indian carpetbaggers take over.


Re:Why don't we just hand *EVERYTHING* over to Ind (-1, Troll)

borgheron (172546) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618522)

And to the f*cker who just modded me down. Up yours, I've got Karma to spare.


That's nice, but if they REALLY want to save.... (3, Insightful)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618389)

They would outsource Mr. Fancy Pants Editor and his bosses. Clearly the big bucks are going to these guys. If the writers can live on $1.00 per day in Bangalore, surely then can management live there on $2.00.

outsourcing (1)

burninginside (631942) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618392)

i would suggest this article about the subject...

Job Losses and Trade []

via NealzNuze []

Re:outsourcing (5, Insightful)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618432)

Where are the new jobs going to come from?
What should people train/retrain for?

You also forget to point out that most of the new jobs being created in the US to replace the outsourced jobs do not pay nearly as much nor do the have near the same level of benifits.

People who support offshoring of everything need to realize that it can not continue. The USA can not survive if most of our high paying jobs go away. Cut peoples incomes enought and they go from being tax payers to tax consumers (and they will elect people who will keep the money coming).

Re:outsourcing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618512)

The USA can not survive if most of our high paying jobs go away.

Sounds good to me, you filthy American.

Uh-oh (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618448)

...looks like we found another one of those troublesome Boortz listeners/readers.

Are you a devout worshipper at the Church of the Painful Truth?

Do you take daily lessons in insensitivity training?

Have you ever heard the audio remix of "Boo got shot"?

the trend continues (2, Informative)

ocularDeathRay (760450) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618393)

I am a fairly skilled nerd with experience in digital and analog electronics testing, as well as some programming. I lost my job a while ago due to a sweatshop my old company opened in china.

I was out of work for a while and just recently was lucky enough to score a job working in an irrigation supply house... doing deliveries and stuff like that. I like so many /. readers grew up hearing that I was "lucky" to love computers because "thats where the money is". I don't care if I make 20k or 100k, I WANT TO BE A PROGRAMMER. it is a sad state of affairs when all this stuff gets sent over seas. Now we see cases like this where even remotely related jobs are sent away.

world trade SUCKS
any american who HONESTLY believes otherwise SUCKS

Re:the trend continues (0, Flamebait)

larry bagina (561269) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618435)

nafta? you've been listening to too many democratic presidential debates. NAFTA is largely irrelevant. Those low wage jobs that went to Mexico have since moved to India and china.

The first law of economics is that division of labor (and world trade) increase total prosperity.

Re:the trend continues (2, Insightful)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618526)

Since most of the world lives at a level FAR below the level of the US what leads you to believe that the US can keep it's standard of living intact?

Re:the trend continues (4, Insightful)

tmasssey (546878) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618554)

You are exactly correct: world trade increases total prosperity.

It also *equalizes* prosperity. And seeing as Americans are at the tip top of the wealth pyramid, where do you think we'll go?

I'm not saying that such equalization is not appropriate. But no matter what, it will be painful.

Re:the trend continues (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618562)

Who gives a flying fuck about "total prosperity"?

China and India accound for about 2/5 of the total world population. If the whole world up and gave everything they had to make everything even, the rest of us would be taken back to 1904 standards of living (or even farther back).

It's not our fault these people couldn't or wouldn't plan their economies/population growth. It's not our fault they're starving. It shouldn't be our mess to clean up, and damnit, I don't want to be piled deep with a bunch of Chinese and Indians!

We're trying to get by, too... But we (used) to try harder. The only difference is that the rules are changing. Fuck the global economy.

Old west tactics...... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618401)

| | . | |____/__

moral of the story (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618402)

no one has a right to a job. having a job is a gift. no matter where you live, there will always be people who feel that have a right to a job and that it should be gauranteed. things are moving off shore and it's unstoppable. guess what, America has had an advantage over other countries for a while now, but it was always temporary. Those who keep learning and growing will find new jobs and make it. those who bitch and grown, hoping they can keep their job will surely loose it.

Glad to see this hit other industries (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618409)

Sick of outsourcing just being an engineer or programmer issue. Now with "left-brain" jobs being outsourced we can get some real addressing of the issue.

greedy fuckers (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618412)

Why shouldn't the Indians... (5, Informative)

ron_ivi (607351) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618419)

Article wrote: why shouldn't the Indians just put up their own website to replace CNet, and we can all read what they write direct

Probably because CNet pays them more than they could make running their own web site. Running a web-site would involve getting out and selling ad space and buying lots of bandwidth. Both of these roles are probably more cost-effecively done from the fancy CNet building in San Francisco, because it's a better place to shmooze with advertisers and suppliers.

CNet still has a nice cushion of IPO cash that they can use to pay Indian developers well as well as buying more expensive things like Esther Dyson's EDVentures []

I'm sure Esther didn't come cheap, so I think CNet's right when they say it's not just for the money savings. If a writer in India can produce better content for the same price they'll hire one there. If Esther can provide even-better content for a much higher price, they'll hire her too.

My guess is that the cost of the Indian writers to build out the sales side of the proposed website wouldn't be possible in the era.

they aren't alone. (1)

wo1verin3 (473094) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618425)

My own workplace is considering this.

In addition, I just read that IBM is planning to double their Indian staff [] .

Re:they aren't alone. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618484)

The article says their expanding their workforce in India while not reducing jobs in the U.S. They aren't outsourcing.(those jobs atleast)

Can we outsorce our gov't to India because (5, Funny)

Rares Marian (83629) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618427)

... I'm guessing some will be moving there soon. I'd rather have 1/3 or 1/4 pay for 1/6 the cost of living that 0/100 job at 1/1 pay for 1/1 the cost of living.

We just need to outsorce the gov't so we can keep our Constitution.

Wait, does Pakistan like the U.S.?

Re:Can we outsorce our gov't to India because (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618471)

"Wait, does Pakistan like the U.S.?"

Does anyone? Have you seen the news lately -- and Fox doesn't count.

Get over it man. Either sort out your inflated economy or get use to the idea of companies moving offshore.

Re:Can we outsorce our gov't to India because (1)

Geoffreyerffoeg (729040) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618571)

The people of Pakistan in general don't care much for the US (but the majority of the eastern world hates us anyway, so that's not saying much). Many ethnic Pashtuns/Afghans live in Pakistan, and there is a relatively strong Islamic extremist movement.

The government of Pakistan came into place via a military coup; it has the support of the US. See the Wikipedia section on the coup [] and the paragraph above it, and the Pakistan article [] itself. Pakistani soldiers are helping US soldiers in the ongoing hunt for fact, a few weeks back Pakistan was more open than the US was about their almost-capture of UBL.

It's times like these... (1, Interesting)

DarkHelmet (120004) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618429)

Where I wonder if I'm better off in prison.

At least I'd be getting health care and not be thrown out on the street.

Re:It's times like these... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618455)

i bet prison would improve your sex life, too.

Re:It's times like these... (1)

DarkHelmet (120004) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618475)

Now I know where the GNAA posts from.

Re:It's times like these... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618578)

what's the ratio of single chics to guys on slashster

I need to know if it's worth the bother of signing up

anything better than 10 guys / chic and I'll sign up

Didn't Dell try this? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618443)

If I remember correctly, Dell outsourced their call center to India and then brought it back because of complaints due to a language barrier.

And now CNet has the bright idea of outsourcing writers? Just what we need, technical writing in Engrish.

Re:Didn't Dell try this? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618557)

You haven't read CNet lately have you ?

No Direct Selling in the Near Future (5, Insightful)

GrimReality (634168) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618456)

An anonymous reader writes: ...I mean, we're all going to be buying software direct from Indian companies soon, so why not?

I can understand the frustration, but that statement is quite misinformed, it seems.

From what I have seen, it seems that Indian companies, not just in the computer software/IT industry, but in almost every industry, has always been and for the forseeable future will always be sub-contracting for US and European companies.

Of coure, there will always be exceptions, but that would be a very small minority.

This means that the profits will stay in the US/Europe.

It is a lot like Chevy trucks being made in Mexico. Does anyone say we will be buying trucks direct from Mexican companies soon.

Or say, Chinese products, I have seen a lot of product 'Made in China', but very few from Chinese companies.

I am by no means supporting outsourcing or anything, I am just pointing out that it will only benefit US companies.

Re:No Direct Selling in the Near Future (3, Insightful)

HarryCaul (25943) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618489)

"This means that the profits will stay in the US/Europe."

So what, we're all supposed to make our livings as stockholders now?

Cause if you're not employed by the company, that's the only way their profits can make you money.

They don't need to sell to us. (1)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618552)

In the future, India and China will not need to sell to us. They can trade amongst themselves (and the rest of Asia) and, at the same time, rid themselves of the Sword of Dameclies that is the US Military. Because if we are broke, we will not be able to afford a military that can project force at near the same level we currently can.

I see dead publishing companies... (1)

cmacb (547347) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618457)

CNet publications got fairly useless a couple years ago. They've been running on fumes ever since. Good ridance.

Doctors and Lawyers being offshored to India... (0, Insightful)

borgheron (172546) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618465)

Soon, you too can look forward to your industry being taken over by a bunch of Indian carpetbaggers. And we foolish, idiotic, Americans are f*cking letting it happen!

Car salesmen... they don't need to be *here* to sell a car do they? Hell Indian actors are FAR cheaper than paying those f*ckers in Hollywood, we should outsource all actor jobs to india as well. While we're at it why don't we just get rid of every job that doesn't involve being an idiot manager and outsource it to india.

People seem to forget that the economy is dependent on the average earning potential of the American worker. If this is cut to zero by all of this outsourcing no one will be able to buy the products of the f*ckers doing the outsourcing in the first place.

Goddamn it.



Re:Doctors and Lawyers being offshored to India... (1)

houseofmore (313324) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618518)

"Hell Indian actors are FAR cheaper than paying those f*ckers in Hollywood, we should outsource all actor jobs to india as well."

Have you been to the movies lately? Outsourcing actors to India may be in the best interest of all.

Indians need to climb up the value chain (1)

jigyasubalak (308473) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618477)

...before the chinese come pecking at their backs. This is another proof for that!

Visit any Campus and ... (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618478)

you will see WHY you are being replaced.
The Asians and Indians outperform the Americans
by a ratio of 6 -4

Thats why your job is going to India
Its silly to think they lack the "American"
intellect, or fail in sophistication.

Study Math and Science and study it like its your
life,not like its one big frat party.....

Good written English? (1, Insightful)

FunWithHeadlines (644929) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618479)

I'm surprised at this news, as in every IT shop I've worked in that had foreign workers I found their programming skills to be excellent but their written English skills to be lacking. Oh, they learned English very well, don't get me wrong. But there is a world of difference between being able to speak English fluently and being able to write it correctly. Even the very best of them would have comma issues or something that was a result of their native language rules imposing on their brain. That's perfectly natural. If I learned German, for instance, for a move to Germany, I'll bet I could learn to speak it long before I could write it fluently and correctly enough to pass an editor's check.

Now I know that Indians get an excellent education, and that includes English. But do they know the language well enough to be efficient writers? I truly don't know, so I'm asking if anyone has had experience in this area. My first reaction to this story is to think that editor is going to have a LOT more red lining to do.

Re:Good written English? (3, Interesting)

Gyan (6853) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618527)

Me type god Englis

Actually, virtually all Indians have a native language other than English. SO, their exposure to English is actually via the written text. Newspapers, magazines, textbooks...etc Barring formal conversations in school, Indian kids* don't speak English. But all of their homeworks and exams are answered in English. So, their grasp of the written form, is adequate.

*I'm only refering to the urban middle-class segment.

When our backs are against the wall. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618483)

Pray we can still remember who it was that sold us out to begin with.

Exporting America: false choices (5, Interesting)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618488)

Exporting America: false choices
In none of the attacks on my position on outsourcing has a news organization addressed the facts.
March 10, 2004: 11:12 AM EST
By Lou Dobbs, Lou Dobbs Tonight

NEW YORK (CNN) - You may have noticed recently that I'm being attacked for my views on the exporting of American jobs and my calls for a balanced U.S. trade policy.

Gerard Baker of the Financial Times called me the "high priest of demotic sensationalism."

An editorial in the Economist magazine accused me of embarking "on a rabidly anti-trade editorial agenda" and "greeting every announcement of lost jobs as akin to a terrorist assault."

Lou Dobbs comments on recent attacks of his views on the exporting of American jobs and U.S. trade policy.

Play video
(Real or Windows Media)

Daniel Henninger of the Wall Street Journal excoriated me, I must say, in high style for my troglodyte views on outsourcing by saying, "It's as if whatever made Linda Blair's head spin around in 'The Exorcist' had invaded the body of Lou Dobbs and left him with the brain of Dennis Kucinich."

Washington Post columnist James Glassman has simply accused me of being a "table-thumping protectionist."

Those quotes are from some of the most respected news organizations, and there have been dozens of other articles critical of my view that outsourcing American jobs is neither sound, smart, humane nor in the national interest.
Makes a fellow think

I will tell you it does make a fellow think when attacked so energetically and so personally. But in none of the attacks on my position on outsourcing has a single columnist or news organization seen fit to deal with the facts.

Number one: We're not creating jobs in the private sector, and that's never happened before in our history. Our economists and politicians need to be coming up with answers, not dogma.

Number two: We haven't had a trade surplus in this country in more than two decades, and our trade deficit continues to soar.

Number three: We've lost three million jobs in this country over the last three years, and millions more American jobs are at risk of being outsourced to cheap overseas labor markets.

That seems to me, at least, to be more than sufficient evidence for all of us, Republicans and Democrats alike, to question critically the policies of both parties that have led us to this critical juncture in our economy and our history.
Check out the "Exporting America" list

Frankly, I would love to be proved wrong in my views, and I would gladly change my position, if only my critics would answer a few questions factually, empirically and straightforwardly.

One: How many more jobs must we lose before they become concerned about our middle class and our strength as a consumer market? Two: When will the U.S. have to quit borrowing foreign capital to buy foreign goods that support European and Asian economies while driving us deeper into debt? Three: What jobs will our currently 15 million unemployed workers fill, where and when?

My critics and proponents of free trade and outsourcing suggest I'm a protectionist because I want to curtail the export of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets just to reduce wage levels, and to eliminate our trade deficit and to pursue balanced trade policies.

Lou Dobbs Tonight
International Trade
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Our principal trading partners, Canada, China, Japan and the European Union, all typically maintain annual trade surpluses and pursue balanced trade. Why don't my critics call them protectionists? Why not call them economic isolationists?

My critics, and proponents of the status quo, are offering false choices. They say we must decide between protectionism, or economic isolationism as the president said today, and free trade. I'm sure they believe those choices are the only ones available.

But maybe they also fear our policymakers may discover a middle ground for a desperately needed new U.S. trade policy: a balanced trade policy in the national interest.

Hey guess what! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618490)

This is a free market in action...beautiful isn't it?

Answers on Outsourcing (5, Interesting)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618497)

Answers on Outsourcing
A finance professor argues against placing blind faith in outsourcing. His views follow.
March 12, 2004: 8:18 AM EST
By Rory L. Terry

The following is a guest column by Rory L. Terry, an associate professor of finance at Fort Hays State University.

NEW YORK (CNN) -- A great deal of effort is being expended to convince us all that the outsourcing of jobs under the rubric of free trade is a good thing. I would like to discuss some of these arguments.

Our labor force is not better trained, harder working, or more innovative than our foreign competitors. The argument that we will create new jobs in highly paying fields simply is not true. We have no comparative advantage or superiority in innovation. To assume that we are inherently more creative than our foreign competitors is both arrogant and naive. We are currently empowering our competition with the resources to innovate equally as well as we. Consider the number of new non-native Ph.D.s that leave our universities each year; consider our low rank in the education of mathematics and the sciences; and consider the large number of international students enrolled in our most difficult technical degree programs at our most prestigious universities.

Most of our best, high-paying jobs can be exported.

1. doctors (even surgeons)

2. mathematicians

3. accountants

4. financial analysts

5. engineers

6. computer programmers

7. architects

8. physicists

9. chemists

10. biologists

11. researchers of all types

Our trading problem is an externality

An externality exists in economics any time there is a separation of costs and benefits, and the decision maker does not have to incur the full cost but receives the full benefits of the decision. The fact is, there is no economic force, no supply and demand equilibrium, no rational decision process of either business or consumer, that will make an externality go away. Classic examples of externalities are when a business dumps toxic waste into a nearby river and the downstream residents incur the costs of cancer. The business is able to lower its costs and pass those lower costs on to its customers, and never pay for the treatment of the cancer patients. We have laws in this country against dumping and pollution because they are externalities -- they require a legislative solution.

Cost reductions and other benefits provide a strong incentive to outsource jobs. A company that decides to move its production overseas cuts its costs in many ways, including the following:

1. Extremely low wage rates

2. The circumvention or avoidance of organized labor

3. No Social Security or Medicare benefit payments

4. No federal or state unemployment tax

5. No health benefits for workers

6. No child labor laws

7. No OSHA or EPA costs or restrictions

8. No worker retirement benefits or pension costs

Besides cutting costs, there are other benefits to exporting jobs, including the following:

1. Tax incentives provided by our government

2. Incentives from foreign governments

3. The creation of new international markets for the company's products (which ultimately empowers the company to turn a deaf ear to this country's problems and influence)

4. The continued benefits of our legal system and the freedoms that we provide

The net effect of all of this is lower costs, higher revenue, higher profits, higher stock prices, bonuses for management, and the creation of wealth for a subclass that benefits from low taxes at the expense of the rest of us.

The costs of the decision to outsource are not borne by the decision maker. As a society and as a country, we experience many costs from outsourcing, including the loss of jobs, social costs, higher costs of raw materials and loss of national sovereignty. Loss of jobs reduces the tax base, creates high unemployment benefit costs, and raises the cost of government retraining programs. Displaced, unemployed workers have higher rates of child and spousal abuse, alcoholism, bankruptcy, divorce, etc. As China and India and other large populations grow, they demand huge quantities of oil, gas, steel and other basic raw materials. These costs are born by all of us -- every time we fill our gas tanks, for example. And as a nation, we lose our ability to make independent decisions that are in our best interest when we are dependent on foreign debt and foreign manufacturing. This is a classic externality.

Elegy for a Profession (5, Interesting)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618506)

Posted by: StrugglingInMI on Tue, 09 March 2004 14:49:15 | (2324 Reads) ul e=articles&func=display&aid=264

Elegy for a Profession

A song of the discarded

Hello, Corporate America. Do you know us? Do you remember?

We are I/T.

We are the men and women who helped you build the 21st century.

We flocked to the new technologies, taught ourselves the skills we needed when colleges could not, and forged the tools you asked for.

We signed up willingly, knowing that of all professions, ours was the one where today's knowledge would be tomorrow's obsolescence, where last week's skill is worthless now, and where falling out of touch with progress is career suicide.

And we knew, some of us, that ultimately it would be impossible to keep up with the pace of change - but we tried anyway.

We are I/T.

We are the ones who embraced the idea of 7 x 24 operations, who willingly condemned ourselves to odd hours, unpaid overtime, and ever-increasing expectations, so "expensive equipment could be used most efficiently."

We are the ones who gave up families, friends, and "life outside" to spend endless hours building, fixing, and changing the systems that kept you going and growing. We learned that the dream of a 40-hour workweek would never, ever apply to us.

We are the ones who carried pagers when they were almost exclusively the tools of doctors, pimps and drug dealers.

We are a young mother, sitting in a cubicle at 3:00am, troubleshooting a software problem while her new baby sleeps in a carryall next to her desk.

We are a husband, called from his bed in the dead of night, on call not to save a life, or rescue a trapped motorist, but to rebuild a database index, or repair a broken disk drive. And sometimes, the problem was fixed, and it was the marriage that stayed broken.

Do you know us? We are I/T, too. We are the family of a "computer geek", who learned that vacations, holidays, and sick days did not mean freedom from stress for our loved ones, or uninterrupted time with us. We watched as our parents and spouses took cell phones, laptops, terminals, and manuals with them everywhere, ready to give up our family plans on a moments notice to keep your business running. We heard the phones ring in the middle of the night, at the park, or during dinner. We tried to understand.

We are I/T.

Yes, we are the ones who listened when the siren song of ever higher salaries beckoned. Are you surprised? Do not blame us for taking the salaries you offered. Rather, look to yourselves for creating a work environment so intense, so stressful, so demanding that for ten straight years, the schools to teach the next generation found fewer and fewer applicants.

But your demands did not decrease. In desperation, you threw money at us to buy the expertise your own voracious appetite made scarce.

We are the ones who welcomed foreign workers into our midst, when things were so bad you had to recruit overseas to feed your endless demand. While other departments struggled with racism and intolerance, we became a United Nations in miniature, grateful for help from any quarter, any society that could ease the crushing workload. We built a society of equals, holding no prejudice except technical inadequacy.

We watched our budgets shrink each year, while demands for productivity soared, and our pleas for more help were ignored. And we endured the criticism when the inevitable failures occurred, as overwork, stress, and tension took their inevitable toll on our skills.

We are I/T.

We had to learn not only our profession, but yours too. We learned your business practices so well that sometimes we knew more about them than you did; and we are the ones who had to stand by and listen to your "voice of experience" while we watched you make fatal decisions.

We designed the systems you asked for, only to watch as those with too much power and too little knowledge made decisions that doomed them to failure - a failure for which we would take the blame.

We sat in the sales presentations with you, horrified as we listened to you sell a customer on a technology you did not understand, and we knew could not be delivered at the price you promised. When we protested your inflated claims, we were criticized for being "too negative" - and we took the hit when reality collided with a salesman's almighty commission check.

We did the work, kept the lights on, kept the back room functioning, year after year, knowing that the best we could hope for, the only reward, might be that no one would find a reason to complain that day. We lived with the constant knowledge that almost everyone outside our own group looked on us as a necessary evil.

We are I/T.

We listened to the countless calls for help from people who could spout endless streams of information on inane subjects, but could not remember an 8-character password from one day to the next.

We watched as it became fashionable for those who controlled your companies, and our destinies, to shrug their shoulders and wave a hand at "the computer guys", when "technical issues" arose. To be computer illiterate has become a badge of honor in the boardroom.

We watched as the hardware industry built better and better desktops, and the software designers were forced to use that power not to add real utility, but to dumb down and simplify basic operations, because you couldn't be bothered to train your employees- it took too much time.

We watched as you leveraged the tax system to change us from employees to contractors - a creative way to deny us the benefits we needed like everyone else, while giving you the freedom to drop us the instant you felt we weren't needed. No one was laid off - contractors were just "not renewed".

We are I/T.

And now, many of us must watch from the sidelines.

We watch as you take our jobs and hand them to people in other nations - not immigrants who come here, willing to work hard, and to contribute to our society, but people still in their native lands, trained to do our jobs at a fraction of the cost.

You train them to answer phones "sounding like Americans" so an unsuspecting public does not know they are talking to someone half a world away. To add insult to injury, you use the tools we built for you to make this happen.

You claim that no impact to the economy will come of this, but you do not explain how the loss of billions of dollars worth of spending power, from thousands of high paying professional jobs, will be offset. People in India and China do not buy clothes, cars, and homes in Detroit or Indianapolis.

You do not explain how America will stand on her own, when the technology she relies on is developed and supported by people in nations whose agendas and goals are not hers. What will happen when interests change, technology leaks to those who are not friends to democracy and the American way of life, and the tools to keep things running are no longer here?

You do not explain how the few jobs that remain will be filled, as people retire or burn out, and students again shun I/T curriculums because they see the misery their parents have suffered at your hands.

We are I/T.

We send out resumes by the ream, month after month, as savings and retirement money slowly dwindle, unemployment runs out, and no one will talk to us about a job, in any field. In desperation, we apply everywhere, to do anything, but to no avail. We are overqualified for anything else, and we are unable to work in the field we love. Hard-working professionals with college degrees and decades of experience are stocking shelves and serving drinks.

Do not blame us, Corporate America, for the cynical attitude we have toward you, for some of us remember 20 years ago, when we could not buy a job, and you threw us out on the street at a moments notice.

And now, it is happening again.

Thank you, Corporate America.

We are I/T.

Some of us will remember.

Re: Elegy for a Profession (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618539)

Jesus Christ what a bunch of complaining fags. Move out of the expensive big city, get a trailer on 2 acres out in the boonies for the price of your cell phone service now, and support yourself selling trash on ebay and spend your copious free time toking pot and playing D&D. The economy isn't stopping you from living your dream life as long as you get out of the city.

So are we going to blame.... (1)

ericdano (113424) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618507)

Are we going to blame the President for this one as well? It seems that everyone is outsourcing, and there is no one to stop it.

Re:Bull (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618515)

your being out performed by indians and the Chinese
look at any college campus

Re:Bull (1)

borgheron (172546) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618531)

Not outperformed, just underbid.

Don't let the government take control of this. (5, Interesting)

LordK3nn3th (715352) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618520)

I know I'll be flamed to death and modded down, but the government should have nothing to do with outsourcing and restricting those companies who do.

It should be responibility of the consumer to buy American-produced products, not for the government to control whether we can decide who we hire or not, or where.

Vote with your dollar, but don't let the government have more power to control us.

Also, let us not forget that Indians are people too. Countries are man-made divisions between people, but in the end, we all need to eat, drink, get medicine, and have fun. Is an Indian life less important than an American one?

Really, I don't have much of an opinion on this issue, because I just want to buy cheap, efficient products, and I use Linux anyway so most of the software is freely available. I can see why people are complaining (Americans need jobs!), but then again, so do Indians, and they work for less.

So, again: If you don't like a companies' practice, don't buy their products. Don't let the government have more control.

Typical American reactions (5, Insightful)

ct.smith (80232) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618524)

It seems to me that when the music and film industries complain about prirating, we often cry out that they are just refusing to deal with changing technology. They ought to adapt. If they can't adapt, they ought to go out of buisiness.

Funny that when the topic is the American industry and not technology, everyone refuses to adapt. Well, surprise! The economy and the industries of the world change, but Americans refuse to adapt. Instead, we'll see more anti-trade and anti-captitalist legislation such as tariffs or requirements for employing Americans citizens only. Not too different from anti-piracy legislation. What hipocracy!

OK, enough ranting from a non-American point of view. Have a nice day.

Re:Typical American reactions (1)

LordK3nn3th (715352) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618544)

I'm an American, and I agree with you. People complain about government intervention here, but then they whine when the government doesn't intervene to suit their wants.

Hilo pes expain... (2)

BzzzzSlap (763788) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618525)

Indian Translator Translation = Hello please explain... I've been working with developers from india on and off for about 3 months. It is torture. They are absolutely incapable of communicating complex business rules. Sorry, 2nd, 3rd 4th language learners just can't get down like that. People we need to vote and stop this insanity.

Readers? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618529)

How long until they outsource us slashdotters to India? :P

US gets more BPO work than India: US commerce dept (3, Informative)

premii (667023) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618533)

US gets more BPO work than India: US commerce dept
US commerce department data quoted in a news article in The Wall Street Journal show that a lot more work is being outsourced to the US in comparison with other countries like India. line=US~gets~more~BPO~work~than~India []

This place... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8618545)

needs a subject icon for India. And Japan, and EU. Fact is, sometimes I want to read all India-related articles. Ananova can do this, why not /.? This is a site by techies, right? We should have better know-how.

Here goes... (2, Insightful)

srcosmo (73503) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618555)

If India can produce cheaper software, shouldn't we in the West be willing to buy it?

It seems that too often we're for lower tariffs on anime, imported gadgets, etc., without fully realising that economic liberalism must be mutual. Look at President Bush's ill-advised tariffs on foreign steel -- he talked up freer trade, and then undermined it.

If we can't bring ourselves to buy Indian software, why should they buy anything from us? Maybe they won't. Maybe it'll start a trade war, and everyone will lose.

Just my thoughts.

Since when does locality matter? (1)

mnmn (145599) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618561)

Since when does the country of the developer matter so much? The Linux kernel was written by a Fin, so even in 1991 at Linux kernel version 0.1, it was being outsourced. It also means every time youre booting into Linux youre supporting outsourced software (from US) and costing real Americans real jobs.

Heck ATI is a Canadian company, and you'd better start buying nVidia since you dont like Indian software developers. Is the free software movement just a US movement? Since when does nationality of free software developers matter? Why was that story posted at all?

I'm descended from a certain nationality, my grandparents had a different nationality, my parents lived in yet another country, and I'm in yet another country now, none of which is USA or India. Is it really all that horrible for me to contribute GPL software and therefore cost Americans jobs because cheaper software is available? Noone is really openly prejudiced, but doomsday scenarios and the use of fear is common among those who divide us between politically-drawn borders.

q uality, quantity and cost (1)

masternerd (753023) | more than 10 years ago | (#8618567)

I personally dont want outsourcing but it seems unavoidable. Here are some reasons why people outsource from India (it only about india) Quality - Most of indian companies (stats show 70%) have ISO9000 certification Cost - It is undisputed fact that cost savings are significangt. (Most analyst agree on 40%) Quantity - Most companies keep extra people as backup. People talk about english which certainly helps. availability of manpower and all those famous lines. But main reason is cost.
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