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SVG And The Free Desktop(s)

timothy posted more than 10 years ago | from the lines-and-rules dept.

GUI 337

unmadindu writes "Christian Schaller has written an interesting article on SVG's current and possible uses on the GNU/Linux desktop. Though the article concentrates mostly on GNOME, it does mention the excellent work the KDE developers have been doing with KSVG, and refers to the upcoming SVG support in Mozilla too."

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I have the gayest username ever. (-1)

Can it run Linux (664464) | more than 10 years ago | (#8657618)

Can it run Linux(TM)?

funny shit (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8657699)

you fucking teabagging ball-goblin.

Decency on TV (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8657929)

What the hell is going on?

Now you can't show a tit, swear or even show your middle finger [drudgereport.com] on TV? What the hell is going on?

THINK ABOUT YOUR BREATHING ! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8657629)

Hello, and THINK ABOUT YOUR BREATHING

Yes that's right, THINK ABOUT YOUR BREATHING. Why you might ask? Well it's simple!

Your brain usually takes care of breathing FOR you, but whenever you remember this,
YOU MUST MANUALLY BREATH! If you don't you will DIE.

There are also MANY variations of this. For example, think about:

  1. BLINKING!


  1. SWALLOWING SALIVA!


  1. HOW YOUR FEET FEEL IN YOUR SOCKS!


In conclusion, the THINK ABOUT YOUR BREATHING troll is simply unbeatable.
These 4 words can be thrown randomly into article text trolls, into sigs, into anything, and once seen, WILL FORCE
THE VICTIM TO TAKE CARE OF HIS BREATHING MANUALLY!
This goes far beyond the simple annoying or insulting trolls of yesteryear.

In fact, by EVEN RESPONDING to this troll, you are proving that IT HAS CLAIMED ANOTHER VICTIM -- YOU!

THINK ABOUT YOUR INDEMNIFICATION! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8658030)

Hello, and THINK ABOUT YOUR INDEMNIFICATION

Yes that's right, THINK ABOUT YOUR INDEMNIFICATION. Why you might ask? Well it's simple!

Your brain usually takes care of breathing FOR you, but whenever you remember this, YOU MUST LIBERALLY TOUCH YOUR JUNK! If you don't you will DIE.

There are also MANY variations of this. For example, think about:


TROLLING!

FIRST POSTING!

HAVING SEX WITH A FEMALE ZEBRA IN HEAT!

In conclusion, the THINK ABOUT YOUR INDEMNIFICATION troll is simply unbeatable.
These 4 words can be thrown randomly into article text trolls, into sigs, into anything, and once seen, WILL FORCE THE VICTIM TO TAKE CARE OF HIS JUNK MANUALLY! This goes far beyond the simple annoying or insulting trolls of yesteryear.

In fact, by EVEN RESPONDING to this troll, you are proving that IT HAS CLAIMED ANOTHER VICTIM -- YOU!

no one wants it (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8657630)


no one wants it, they didnt want it 6years ago and they don't want it now

perhaps this team should look at developing with VRML

Re:no one wants it (4, Insightful)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 10 years ago | (#8657684)

I think that's a bit unfair. I for one would be happy if SVG was better supported as a web technology. The advantages to it becoming a standard is that useful, zoomable, interactive charting could be done easily on the client side. Just a little XML on the server side and then let the client deal with it. Right now I use Batik to render the SVG XML to PNG images before sending them to the client. Of course, the client can't zoom in on interesting areas like they can with pure SVG.

Re:no one wants it (5, Funny)

smitty_one_each (243267) | more than 10 years ago | (#8657924)

let the client deal with it


Famous Last Web Development Words

Re:no one wants it (1)

RLiegh (247921) | more than 10 years ago | (#8658216)

I would be happy if I found out I won the lottery, but that ain't going to happen either. For a variety of reasons, SVG has lost out to more proprietary options; and while you and I lose out as linux users - we can't pretend that the market has made its' decision.

The Japanese Navy (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8657640)

My, the Japanese Navy sure can dance! [jda.go.jp]

Note: if you follow that link and your browser does not show a video, then your browser sucks, or the Japanese Navy's web design sucks, or both.

SVG & Steganogrpahy? (-1, Insightful)

bc90021 (43730) | more than 10 years ago | (#8657648)

From the article:

"Because it is an XML based file format, SVG allows the creator to conveniently embed arbitrary information inside of the file."

Granted, I'm guessing that the author is referring to graphics related information inside the file, but surely since it's just XML it could be used to embed just about any text or text-encoding?

Re:SVG & Steganogrpahy? (5, Insightful)

MisterFancypants (615129) | more than 10 years ago | (#8657758)

Steganography? Are you going for a keyword karma whoring? Because your post is just silly. Who would try to embed some secret information in an XML file when the whole purpose of XML is so the files can easily be edited in an arbitrary text editor? It doesn't make any practical sense... Even if you encode the text somehow, its presence would still stick out like a much larger sore thumb than, say, a message hidden in a JPG file.

Re:SVG & Steganogrpahy? (1)

bc90021 (43730) | more than 10 years ago | (#8657890)

I didn't say it had to be "secret". The point is that who would be looking in images? How many people outside Slashdot would even know that that was possible?

Re:SVG & Steganogrpahy? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8658031)

It's not exactly an unknown procedure. My local newspaper had a column about it, for crissakes. Any half-decent image manipulation tool will happily display file comments (which is what your "steganography" would be).

Which won't stop the artists-of-the-slightly-funny-deal from bundling an image-comment reader in their $50 "people-are-watching-you-OMG" software package.

Re:SVG & Steganogrpahy? (2, Insightful)

JohnFluxx (413620) | more than 10 years ago | (#8658104)

Well duh, the whole point steganography is that you can't prove the data is even there.

Re:SVG & Steganogrpahy? (2, Interesting)

AntonyBartlett (644248) | more than 10 years ago | (#8658005)

"Even if you encode the text somehow, its presence would still stick out like a much larger sore thumb than, say, a message hidden in a JPG file."

But XML does give you plenty of potential hiding places for data (e.g. white-space)

Re:SVG & Steganogrpahy? (2, Informative)

conrausch (728104) | more than 10 years ago | (#8657764)

This is not really how it is supposed to work. The cool thing about steganography is, that you might not even know, that a picture has a message encrypted in it, because the data is there any way. since XML is clear text, one could easily see any encrypted text in it, as it is NOT clear text... of course, you could put tags with encrypted text in it that wouldnt get displayed, and as probably only few people would bother reading the source of a svg file, only few people would find out. but if you want to, you can have the pure ciphertext and run cryptographic attacks on it. So it is not really anything like steganography, you could as well hide your encrypted text in the comments of a pdf file or whatever...

Re:SVG & Steganogrpahy? (1)

Saint Stephen (19450) | more than 10 years ago | (#8658091)

Has anyone ever written any steganography which hides text in plain sight? I.e., a somewhat normal looking piece of text, which contains encoded, different data. Don't answer funny, you see what I'm getting at.

Re:SVG & Steganogrpahy? (1)

Reducer2001 (197985) | more than 10 years ago | (#8658213)

Sure, that's been happening for years [att.net] .

Re:SVG & Steganogrpahy? (2, Informative)

twanvl (567252) | more than 10 years ago | (#8657771)

I think the author is refering to the embeding of other types of XML in a SVG image. You can for example use HTML and MathML inside an SVG file, or even your own XML based data format.

Re:SVG & Steganogrpahy? (5, Funny)

Trigun (685027) | more than 10 years ago | (#8657776)

I hear Osama is hiding in a specifically crafted xml document.

Re:SVG & Steganogrpahy? (2, Informative)

temojen (678985) | more than 10 years ago | (#8657797)

Yes, you could embed any data (including scripts), and with a ECMAScript capable renderer, even use it to generate the image (for graphs etc).

That's not what steganography is, though. I suggest you review what steganography is [wikipedia.org] .

A big blob of <[CDATA[ would stick out like a sore thumb in an SVG. It's best to stick with embedding int Tiffs and Wavs.

Metadata (1)

Simarilius (665671) | more than 10 years ago | (#8657809)

SVG allows you to embed a lot more than just the graphics related info, like you said it can be any text or text encoding, so you can put fonts, bitmap thumbnails, info on what the file is (think keywords for search systems) author info, licensing info, whatever takes your fancy.

Frist Prost (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8657649)

At it again!

Here's a real bleeding-edge idea.. (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8657651)

1) Make decent icons to begin with.
2) Use a decent scaling algorithm that preserves quality.

Re:Here's a real bleeding-edge idea.. (4, Insightful)

temojen (678985) | more than 10 years ago | (#8657943)

2) Use a decent scaling algorithm that preserves quality.

The best way to do this is with vector based graphics, which is what SVG is.

SGI (3, Informative)

panthro (552708) | more than 10 years ago | (#8657653)

I remember SGI's 4DWM [inp.nsk.su] having completely vector based graphics back in 1992 (and probably before that). Has anyone else done it in the interim?

Re:SGI (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8657777)

looks like bitmapped fonts to me...

Re:SGI (1)

james b (31361) | more than 10 years ago | (#8657887)

So, the graphics aren't completely vector based, but the icons are - in that screenshot, the icons in the Icon Catalog and the one at top left are vector-based. The three icons at top-right are bitmaps though (they're minimised applications, which always seem to get bitmap icons).

One interesting thing is that 4DWM recently got antialiasing on the SVG icons, which looks pretty sweet.

Other implementation (2, Funny)

sczimme (603413) | more than 10 years ago | (#8657938)


Around 1994 or so I had an updated version of this working. It was a major revision, so it was called SVGA.

:-)

/yes, it's a joke

Re:SGI (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8658075)

Maybe the icons are vector, but the rest of that looks like Plain Old Motif.

Re:SGI (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8658089)

I remember SGI's 4DWM [inp.nsk.su] having completely vector based graphics back in 1992 (and probably before that). Has anyone else done it in the interim?

Seeing that the 1992's screenshot you gave have netscape on it is very impressive as Netscape was released in 1994 [jwz.org]

Re:SGI (1)

panthro (552708) | more than 10 years ago | (#8658163)

It's a screenshot of 4DWM. I didn't say the screenshot itself was from 1992.

Re:SGI (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8658189)

Stay cool. I was just trolling a little...

Re:SGI (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8658181)

Well, then, the screenshot was taken in 1994 while the 4DWM code was written in 1992.

Wait a minute, that's UNIX!!! I KNOW THAT!!!

*flys through filesystem*

Re:SGI (1)

enjo13 (444114) | more than 10 years ago | (#8658090)

The windows metafile format (think powerpoint, word art, etc..) is most definitely a vector format.

woot (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8657655)

Looks good :-D

stupid acronyms (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8657658)

Would it have killed you to say Scalable Vector Graphics once in the article?

Re:stupid acronyms (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8657966)

No kidding. I do machine learning, and EVERY TIME this comes up, I immediately think Support Vector Machine... No. Support Vector ... Graphics? OK, that makes sense, but wait. What is a support to an image designer? And why are graphics so important for (this field of) AI?

Wait, oh, I know! This is an algorithm for synthesizing new images based on user response to previous images!

Oops. Wishful thinking. It's just vector graphics. Really, how many formats for this HAVE there been already? I'm glad W3 wasn't around before - we'd still be trying to develop ASCII.

Re:stupid acronyms (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8658086)

What's that have to do with the Saturn V Gantry?!!!

I used to work with Christian Schaller (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8657662)

He is a really smart and interesting guy. He does have a nasty habit of picking his nose and eating the booger thought. Pretty gross.

Re:I used to work with Christian Schaller (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8657688)

What's a "booger thought"?

I think he meant nose dirt or boogie (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8657737)

pretty disgusting guy that Schaller fellow

Yay SVG! (1)

SoTuA (683507) | more than 10 years ago | (#8657664)

Here's hoping we get an all-SVG desktop years before MS, and leave windows biting the dust of the now-too-small-to-see icons by way of better and better monitors.

At least until longhorn...

Re:Yay SVG! (2, Insightful)

pNutz (45478) | more than 10 years ago | (#8658196)

Indeed. Longhorn's vector graphics break the SVG standard, "because SVG did not integrate well with Avalon"--even though SVG is XML, like Avalon. You'd think with 400 developers working on Avalon, they would find a way to integrate it...

I'm sure they'll go out of their way to make it difficult to convert between their screwy system and the W3 standard. Hopefully someone will hack out a converter. And this IS important, for companies that don't want to rewrite all their vector graphics to port something to Linux. Reusing icons on different platforms used to be the easiest part.

WTF? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8657666)

GNU/Linux desktop??? I thought GNU/Linux was the kernel? The ?n*x world is confusing, I have a couple boxen I want to try ?n*x on (especially with the latest Winblows virii), but once I thought I had handle on the terms, it gets all weird again. Isn't KDE the desktop, and GNU/Linux the kernel?

You're trolling, but I'll bite (4, Informative)

kenneth_martens (320269) | more than 10 years ago | (#8657804)

GNU/Linux desktop??? Isn't KDE the desktop, and GNU/Linux the kernel?

Not exactly. Linux is the kernel, X Windows is the GUI, and KDE (or GNOME) is the Desktop Environment. The whole package together is called GNU/Linux, but most people just call it Linux. I sidestep the whole GNU/Linux vs. Linux debate by just calling it Mandrake or Debian or Redhat, but that's just me.

So, in summary:
  • Linux -> the kernel
  • X Windows -> the GUI
  • KDE or GNOME -> the desktop environment
  • GNU/Linux, or just "Linux" -> the whole package
  • Redhat, Mandrake, Debian, etc -> specific version of GNU/Linux

Re:You're trolling, but I'll bite (0, Informative)

Hektor_Troy (262592) | more than 10 years ago | (#8658118)

Just to nitpick a bit, I don't think it would be fair to call "the whole package" GNU/Linux. AFIK GNU/Linux IS the Kernel.

The whole package (as I read your post) would quite likely include various programs, that aren't GNU-programs.

Re:You're trolling, but I'll bite (4, Informative)

MythMoth (73648) | more than 10 years ago | (#8658244)

Just to unpick that specific nit, the kernel as a whole is the specific thing that even the FSF would agree is not GNU/Linux:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU/Linux

Re:You're trolling, but I'll bite (1)

lpangelrob2 (721920) | more than 10 years ago | (#8658177)

It's not necessarily a troll if people legitimately don't know what all of that is. Know what my first *nix-based system was? Mac OS X. There's a reason for that.

Most of the rest of the computing world... and I'd say, oh, probably up to a quarter of the people reading Slashdot, although I don't have a poll (ridiculous as the end figures would be)... wouldn't have been able to relate to me the information you just stated. It's not that I'm ignorant, nor that I lack a basic knowledge of computers, I just work, and was raised on, Windows. (Of course, now I work on Macs. :-p)

The most I've learned was when I *tried* to install Gentoo. It didn't work, but I learned quite a bit, and even then that's just scratching the surface, and despite the many hours I spent doing that, I probably still don't know very much.

For most people, that makes [insert distro here] a bit too scared to try it. Present what needs to be known, in a nice format that non-techies can understand, and make everything that's unknown about Linux known. Yeah, maybe end-user Joe will forget after a while, but at least he's appeased.

Anyways, back to my Slackware box and figuring out how I should really start KDE... or X, as it should be called now. :-p No, I haven't used Linux as a desktop ever, so no, it's not obvious.

Re:WTF? (5, Informative)

temojen (678985) | more than 10 years ago | (#8657904)

  • Linux is the Kernel
  • GNU is the most common core utilities and Libraries
  • X handles the mouse, keyboard, and monitor
  • KDE, GNOME, Blackbox, or twm (etc) is the desktop or window manager

Yes, I do know it was a troll.

Re:WTF? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8658143)

Then why did you respond, dumbass?!

I'll bite. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8657979)

I thought GNU/Linux was the kernel?
No, the kernel is called Linux. GNU/Linux is a pedantic name for the base system (kernel, libraries, and select programs). The things you should be concerned about have names like Mandrake Linux, Fedora Core, etc.
The ?n*x world is confusing
You have your globs reversed. Save yourself the trouble and just call it Unix.
Isn't KDE the desktop
KDE is a desktop. GNOME is another, and XFCE, GNUstep, and XPde are others.

Really? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8657676)

Christian Schaller has written an interesting article...

Guess it depends on what you call interesting. Me, I really find myself not giving a piss in the wind about it.

Attn: Lockheed Martin Employees Valley Forge PA (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8657704)

FYI If you check the Third Floor Men's room 2nd stall from the left you will find a huge 16 inch turd I left there. I did not flush or use toilet paper so others can enjoy this gastrointestinal jewel. You may want to take photos or even go "spear fishing" and have a nibble of the chocolate treasure. Enjoy!

Re:Attn: Lockheed Martin Employees Valley Forge PA (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8657780)

holy shit! this dude wasn't kidding, and the fucking turd was jet-black. However, the asshole in janitorial flushed the toilet. Subsequently, the turd magically exploding into oblivion.

Right right, good good... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8657717)

...But could they at least not preface the name with K? Kthx.

Mozilla's native svg support project (3, Informative)

pinkUZI (515787) | more than 10 years ago | (#8657718)

The article mentions several ongoing SVG projects. Worth mentioning is Mozilla's efforts [mozilla.org] in this arena.

Re:Mozilla's native svg support project (1)

Zardoz44 (687730) | more than 10 years ago | (#8658193)

And the article felt that it was worth mentioning as well:
The Mozilla SVG [croczilla.com] project started as part of the Crocodile Mathematics project, although its checkin to Mozilla CVS didn't happen until December 2001
Granted, you provide a more direct link, but the mention was there.

JAADEA (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8657719)

Just another article that doesn't explain the acronym.

Re:JAADEA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8657992)

TLA AFU

if (SVG = Flash) .... (4, Interesting)

Dysan2k (126022) | more than 10 years ago | (#8657734)

Maybe it's just me, but I'm wondering when SVG will become Flash. Or am I comparing apples and oranges here?

Re:if (SVG = Flash) .... (5, Informative)

tepples (727027) | more than 10 years ago | (#8657923)

SVG replaces PDF (Acrobat format). SVG plus SMIL replaces SWF (Flash format), as replacing SWF for use in animated presentations such as this [rmitz.org] or this [badgerbadgerbadger.com] needs audio and animation.

Re:if (SVG = Flash) .... (4, Informative)

pldms (136522) | more than 10 years ago | (#8658045)

SVG replaces PDF (Acrobat format). SVG plus SMIL replaces SWF..

That's a pretty fair summary, although SVG can be animated [w3.org] without SMIL, using the animation elements. If you add javascript and DOM into the mix you can get interactive applications, like FOAFNaut [foafnaut.org] .

Re:if (SVG = Flash) .... (1)

arcanumas (646807) | more than 10 years ago | (#8658111)

Badger badger Badger? Mushroom ,mushoom? Snaaake?

WTF!? What is this. Is this some reference to a serial, a comic, a movie?

It doesn't make any sense.

Re:if (SVG = Flash) .... (1)

photon317 (208409) | more than 10 years ago | (#8658157)


Well, for one, obviously the author of badgerbadgerbadger.com has access to some seriously high quality psychodelic drugs. If you listen closesly though, you'll notice that the audio never says the word badger. The "badger" part of the song is just a rythmic sound. But you're staring at badgers, and you're at badgerbadgerbadger.com, so your mind convinces you that it must be saying badger.

Re:if (SVG = Flash) .... (1)

gnuzip (670049) | more than 10 years ago | (#8658016)

I really hope not! SVG is a great thing, but if it is abused in the way that Flash is, it'll spoil it all. SVG: "good", Flash: "bad". SVG has the potential to create many good opportunities for web graphics and other non-photograph images, but Flash can only be used for evil. If the two were to meet (or if 'MVG' appeared ;), the world would be in trouble.

Here we go again! (2, Insightful)

fiannaFailMan (702447) | more than 10 years ago | (#8658243)

Yeah yeah yeah "Flash sucks, blah blah blah."

Dude, the web is full of badly designed websites written in HTML. Is HTML a bad standard?

Flash is capable of creating compact little applications, parsing XML from a data source, playing video, and doing a million other things that are made possible by the ubiquitous Flash player. We've moved on from the days of 'skip intro.' I wish the /. community would update their knowledge accordingly.

Sheesh!

Re:if (SVG = Flash) .... (1)

uncommonlygood (764935) | more than 10 years ago | (#8658172)

SVG has animation capabilities, but being a replacement for Flash isn't really the point.

The most useful aspect I can see is it will allow web clients to zoom in and out of images to their hearts' content. This means that when you think the text on a web page is too small, you can use the zoom in function and instead of just getting massive writing and tiny images, you would get nice big images as well so you can read the text on the image-based navigation bar.

Re:if (SVG = Flash) .... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8658206)

With scripting, it is like flash in xml and not (as one poster suggested) a replacement for PDF, other wise why would adobe be the main plugin producer and exponent of cool demos [adobe.com] ?

AC

Scalable graphics fill a niche (5, Interesting)

Sexual Ass Gerbil (728400) | more than 10 years ago | (#8657738)

They're great for displaying technical drawings. I'd like to see more architectual diagrams on the web, both software architecture and the physical type. With bitmapped graphics, web designers are pretty much limited to small low resolution images, dumbing down detail to a marketroid white sheet level. Vector graphics scale very well for diagrams and cad drawings.

Re:Scalable graphics fill a niche (1)

jfengel (409917) | more than 10 years ago | (#8658128)

I'm really, really hoping Mapquest will start sending out maps in SVG format. Being able to put on all the street names (when you print it on a 300DPI printer instead of a 75DPI screen) will make it a lot easier to find places than the dead reckoning system you currently have to use. The location maps are nearly useless.

More installs (-1, Offtopic)

mystery_bowler (472698) | more than 10 years ago | (#8657769)

Two years ago a friend of mine in New Orleans converted his employer to an all Linux/GNOME office running Open Office. The particular distro was Debian I think. It is about 40 users on a small network and they host their own website with BSD/Apache/PHP.

A year ago another friend in Mobile, Alabama converted his office of 10 users to Linux/KDE. Again, running Open Office. Small network, just a file server running Linux as well. The distro was Redhat.

I keep hearing tales of conversions all the time, each with (mostly) good results. The Gulf Coast isn't exactly a high-tech area, so I can only imagine that Linux desktops are being adopted (at least in the corporate world) at a better pace than I originally believed. Anyone from more...er..."modern" areas care to back that up or refute it?

wtf... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8657903)

does this tripe have to do with svg? i don't give a rat's fuzzy ass if your brother's best friends gay lover got his fat retarted boss to install linux on a computer. jesus christmas!

SVG is the best thing ever! (5, Interesting)

scorp1us (235526) | more than 10 years ago | (#8657782)

I recently dabbled in SVG for a website. I learned with that and a dash of javascript I could completely replace a java applet with a few kilobytes of code.

SVG is finding its way into everything, browsers, icons, etc. I forsee a world where SVG is dominant and regular pixel based images are seen as WAV files as in comparison to MIDI.

As a matter of fact that is a good analogy: MIDI vs WAV. One is intrections on how to draw the other is the final outcome.

Imagine how many songs you could fit on a CD if it were midi, with human voice parameters. Ignoring the vocals, you'd get thousands of songs on a CD.

SVG also fixes the pixelation issue, whenyou try to stretch and compress the image. As a matter of fact, do that once with a regualr image and you're working with crap. You can shrink SVG blow it up, and rotate without any kind of distortion.

It is kind of suprising it took us this long to get a cross-platform standard on how to specify how to draw shapes! But it is a good thing.

I don't think computers will ever be the same once SVG takes off.

Good comparison (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8657918)

That's actually a very good comparison

Except that we have compressed formats for images.

So it's closer to comparing MIDI to MP3. And let us be frank - Midi has lost that battle.

Then again, you view an image at half size much much more often than you want to listen to audio at half tempo - so maybe it will win there.

But unless we get much faster processing of vector graphics, then you are going to end up caching the rendered bitmaps anyway - and then you don't really have any reason not to source from bitmaps in the first place.

Having a desktop where everything can zoom and rotate and deform freely is an interesting idea - but in practice you'll end up choosing a few effects and sticking to them. So SVG for experimentation, then convert to bitmaps for real use?

Re:SVG is the best thing ever! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8657984)

I use MIDI files and all, but... sometimes (that is, 99% of the time) I want an actual recording of a performance, ya know?

I hope you were joking. :)

Re:SVG is the best thing ever! (2, Informative)

Gilk180 (513755) | more than 10 years ago | (#8658099)

This is a decent comparison, except that it leaves out a very important fact. Most sounds are not generated through a midi-type process. On the other hand many images are produced by drawing vectors.

MIDI cannot rival the quality of sampled sound unless the sound being sampled was produced by a MIDI-like process.

SVG is good for many image applications because the sampled forms are produced through an SVG-like process.

Re:SVG is the best thing ever! (1)

gregoryb (306233) | more than 10 years ago | (#8658100)

That's a good analogy, but does it extend to the type and quality of the images you can produce? Personally, I don't listen to MIDI songs because a recording (WAV) is much more versatile and a better representation of the recorded music.

So, with SVG, is it useful for images more complex than just line art or cell shaded drawings? Images more realistic? (Like photo-realistic drawings?) Line art and cell shading definately has a huge application, especially on the desktop, but if SVG is only good for line art and related style images, I can see the application being limited.

Try telling some of the kids in the design building across from me that they have to use only line art and cell shading from now on... (then run...) :)

SVG is the best thing ever!-Wonderworks. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8658114)

"SVG is finding its way into everything, browsers, icons, etc. I forsee a world where SVG is dominant and regular pixel based images are seen as WAV files as in comparison to MIDI."

Oh whatever will photographers do. SVG isn't a replacement for bitmaps, they both have their place, and as I pointed out elsewere you can embed an image into SVG.

"As a matter of fact that is a good analogy: MIDI vs WAV. One is intrections on how to draw the other is the final outcome."

The tracking scene isn't dead.

"SVG also fixes the pixelation issue, whenyou try to stretch and compress the image. As a matter of fact, do that once with a regualr image and you're working with crap. You can shrink SVG blow it up, and rotate without any kind of distortion.""

Within limits. Fonts are vector-based and they need hinting to bring out their best.

"I don't think computers will ever be the same once SVG takes off."

The problem is that no one (open or closed) has a complete implimentation. What good is a standard that you can't use?

Re:SVG is the best thing ever!-Wonderworks. (1)

scorp1us (235526) | more than 10 years ago | (#8658257)

Adobe SVG plug in Beta 6 is the best out there (and works with IE and Firebird), KSVG is also very close. Mozilla is the worst: not in default branch (yet) and Adobe would have to write a lot of binding code for the in-document JS to work for Moz.

Vocals, music royalties, and photos (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 10 years ago | (#8658145)

I foresee a world where SVG is dominant and regular pixel based images are seen as WAV files as in comparison to MIDI.

Except residential casual copyright infringers no longer trade MIDI or MOD files anymore. Most now trade .mp3 (MPEG audio) or .ogg (Ogg Vorbis audio) files on P2P networks.

Imagine how many songs you could fit on a CD if it were midi, with human voice parameters.

By "human voice parameters" do you mean a recording of Britney's actual voice compressed with Speex or some other wideband CELP codec? Otherwise, "human voice parameters" will never sound exactly like Britney Spears. And since when has the quality of real-time digital synthesis improved to such that substituting MIDI for the recorded performance of a full orchestra to satisfy an audiophile?

Ignoring the vocals, you'd get thousands of songs on a CD.

"Ignoring the vocals" means ignoring the vast majority of the music played on commercial FM radio today. Besides, "thousands of songs on a CD" would make CDs more expensive, as the label would have to pay extra royalties to the songwriters(' publishers). Sure, Mutopia [mutopiaproject.org] would be able to pack a sound font and a thousand .ly.gz files onto an affordable CD, but Mutopia is an isolated case.

SVG also fixes the pixelation issue

The future of digital imaging among residential users lies in photos and video. Digital cameras output photos made of pixels. What the heck kind of autotrace are you imagining for resizing a photo? Manual trace takes work; a typical residential user just wants to blow up a photo and print it or blow up video to fit on a 32" TV.

Re:SVG is the best thing ever! (Addendum) (4, Interesting)

scorp1us (235526) | more than 10 years ago | (#8658176)

Some of you have remarked that MIDI has lost. Well, ear interpretations are not analogous to visual interpretations.

I was more referring about the costs to a computer of using them.

However if you do compare SVG icons to Bit-map icons, visually, the SVG icon will not only be simpler, and usually just as apealing.

Look at the SVG icon sets referenced and the background of Slax (Slackware's LiveCD) The #1 comment is "aww he's so cute". Clearly, the visual accptance is much higher to the human eye than MIDI's acceptance to the human ear.

MIDI could be re-invented to include wavelets which are a base representation of a voice (instrument or human) then define the mathmatical operations. You'd get a 99% facimilie that would probably pass as good as a low-quality MP3 at 1/0th the size.

Example (as SVG):

Now human voices are harder, but once downloaded you could just download the contents of the tree.

You could also hear brittney sing "Opps.." in her original voice or her aged voice, which would be interesting. Or even make Christina Agulera sing Spear's songs.

If you're seeing the potential of re-defining MIDI like that, surely you can see hwo awesome SVG is...

Re:SVG is the best thing ever! (Addendum) (Code) (3, Funny)

scorp1us (235526) | more than 10 years ago | (#8658207)

Example (as SVG):
<voice name="violin" source="violin.wav|mp3" as="g">
<song name="space notes scale"/>
<use name="violin" shiftto="f"/>
<use name="violin" shiftto="a"/>
<use name="violin" shiftto="c"/>
<use name="violin" shiftto="e"/>
</song>

Re:SVG is the best thing ever! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8658210)

You're a tad off in you're comparissons. In both cases, svg vs raster and wav vs midi, midi and svg will always hold less information when the resolutions are the same or less. In the case of midi, resolution isn't even an issue, and most songs when reproduced exactly with midi (or equivilient) will create a midi file bigger than the wav output its generating. Same with SVG, sure it can be blown up without pixelization, but the inital image must have a limit to its complexity where the raster image would be limitless.

Vector graphics on the dekstop (5, Interesting)

pacsman (629749) | more than 10 years ago | (#8657785)

This could make for some really interesting desktops, if this is what I think it is. Make some interesting graphical effects within icons or as the desktop without dragging the system down. I can see a new type of desktop where the start menu is replaced by an interactive desktop background. Personally, I hate the damn start menu (including the Linux implementations) as an incredibly ineffieicient way to organize menus. But, that's just my opinion- obviously someone has to like it.

No offense (-1, Flamebait)

superpulpsicle (533373) | more than 10 years ago | (#8657794)

But this sounds like another project wearing the name "linux" thin?

wave of the future (1)

minus_273 (174041) | more than 10 years ago | (#8657863)

i tell you the wave of the future is XML image formats.. nothing gets compression like XML.. umm ...nm

Re:wave of the future (3, Informative)

orangenormal (728999) | more than 10 years ago | (#8658187)

But XML can be compressed using some amazingly efficient text compression algorithms. In fact, XML generally compresses better than regular text because it has so many predictable features. An SVG file compressed using standard ZIP format yeilds impressive results. It's highly likely most SVG files will be distributed this way.

Woo, Open Standards (3, Insightful)

tblease (721199) | more than 10 years ago | (#8657877)

With the way things are moving towards more of these open standards, it's too bad that people are still relying so heavily on propriatary (sp?) formats like those found in MS Office and some of the Adobe products.

I work at the Center for Teaching, Learning Technology at the university I am enrolled at. I am currently putting together a web-based document management system that is built around XML, and after seeing how much more powerful these open standards can be (especially, when you start looking at all the wonderful concepts that augment XML -- XSL, XPATH, XSL:FO, and the like).

We used to put together all of our documentation for workshops and whatnot using MS Word, and then later switched to InDesign for the sake of having more control over the layout. The new web-based system means we lost some control over the layout of these documents, but the amount of time we've saved and the flexibility we've gained from using it is worth more than its weight in gold (all 2mb worth -- if that, even)

What's frightening, however, is to see these products like MS Word and others potentially offering the option to export to a more open format, like XML. Ever tried reading through MS Word generated HTML? It's almost a fun task, and I hate to think of the possibilty of having to read through MS Word generated XML... eep!

Re:Woo, Open Standards (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8658164)

Ever read through StarOffice XML? It's no treat either -- complex software creates big bloated XML.

Word HTML is full of crap so that you can "round trip" the documents DOC->HTML->DOC. They now have a plugin which generates plain HTML, but it's not super clean either.

Apparently the latest MS Office allows you to define your own XML schemas for use as part of an applicaiton workflow. However, I have no idea how useful this is, or if's just an extention of the forms/database bloat that's already in MS Office.

Sweet... Tempest and Qix on my desktop... (1)

hoggoth (414195) | more than 10 years ago | (#8657885)

This is great. I will be able to play Tempest and Qix in my workstation desktop background.
Nice work!

Umm... and I can... um...
I can play asteroids! Yeah! That's great too!

Need SVG help? (4, Informative)

Phrogz (43803) | more than 10 years ago | (#8657893)

If *you* need SVG support (with creating it) now that your desktop supports it, I highly recommend the fine folks in #svg on the Freenode IRC network.

SVG looks fun (4, Interesting)

gnuzip (670049) | more than 10 years ago | (#8657925)

I'd like to see SVG used more frequently for all sorts of things. I'm not a big fan of XML, but it seems like it'd be quite appropriate in many situations where bitmap formats are ordinarily used. Not only would such images be scalable, but it seems like they would be much easier to manipulate (how about typing or tweaking your images with a text editor?). Drawing languages are more interesting than bitmap formats, since you can actually do things with objects instead of pixels. I would be more interested in using SVG if a more 'flattened' wrapper format could be used to contain equivalent data ("rect 0 0 50 50 blue 5") making it easier to type by hand, and avoiding bloated XML data.

Great, now we just need an affordable app for it (1)

British (51765) | more than 10 years ago | (#8658034)

So far, the best SVG authoring app is Xstudio6. It has easy to use dialogs for just about every single aspect for the SVG 1.1(I think) spec.

Downside is it costs ~$400. A bit pricey for me to goof off with. Thankfully there's
Inkscape/sodipodi, but there's no animation support. It's mainly for static images.

SVG is quite powerful and I can't wait until the day someone goes overboard and makes a FPS out of it(which would be an interesting test of Adobe's SVG plugin). C'mon widespread adoption go go go.

Best viewed on a vector display (2, Interesting)

Bram Stolk (24781) | more than 10 years ago | (#8658065)

Now, SVG would make a lot of sense on a
vector display. However, where could you
get a modern vector display nowadays?

They used to sell arcade machines (battlezone)
and game consoles (vectrix) with these
displays.

Yes! Finally. Let's create an SVG desktop... (5, Funny)

theendlessnow (516149) | more than 10 years ago | (#8658079)

... so I can finally use my 8 way Opteron with 16GB to its fullest potential!!

Cairo (3, Informative)

po8 (187055) | more than 10 years ago | (#8658142)

What makes SVG even cooler is that we have the perfect rendering technology for it: Cairo [cairographics.org] . Cairo renders perfectly stroked and antialiased SVG for a variety of backends including bitmaps, PostScript, and X11.

Hopefully the SVG projects will either adopt the existing Cairo SVG code or use the Cairo rendering code as a backend for their SVG libraries.

Music notation and SVG? (2, Interesting)

ratfynk (456467) | more than 10 years ago | (#8658149)

Given an interface that uses advanced graphics. A really skookum java based music notation interface might be addressed as graphical elements. One of the most annoying aspects of current music notation software is the reliance on fonts and the lack of printer friendly vector drawing interfaces. MusicXML from Recordaire.com is a start, but alot more can be done.

Finally, I can resurrect my vector monitor! (2, Funny)

192939495969798999 (58312) | more than 10 years ago | (#8658231)

Anyone remember vector monitors? Those things would be great to resurrect, supposing that SVG really kicks in on the desktop, and also supposing that we get some svg version of asteroids shipping with those new o/s installs... nice!
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