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Apple Developer Profile Changing?

simoniker posted about 10 years ago | from the larger-ears dept.

Programming 545

rocketjam writes "According to InternetNews.com, Apple Computer is seeing large numbers of UNIX, Java and Open Source developers moving to its Mac OS X platform. Apple Vice President of Worldwide Developer Relations Ron Okamoto mentions that, in the three years since the introduction of OS X, 'people who have experience in those areas are showing a great interest in our OS. We're seeing a lot of first timers. It's really impressive.' The company said it has recently surpassed the 300,000 member threshold of registered developers. Apparently, the increase in enterprise code writers has prompted Apple to add more sessions focusing on enterprise and IT to its upcoming Worldwide Developers Conference."

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545 comments

Yes (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8796814)

iThink it is.

I've said it before... (0, Troll)

razmaspaz (568034) | about 10 years ago | (#8796824)

and I'll say it again. Apple could own the enterprise if they would take their head out of their ass.

Re:I've said it before... (2, Insightful)

razmaspaz (568034) | about 10 years ago | (#8797020)

Will someone explain to me how this is a troll?

I am being very serious. Apple has created a viable platform for developing enterprise applications. They have the XServe now and they are starting to attract a large crowd of developers. This article is proof however that they have no clue that they are sitting on a gold mine.
We're seeing a lot of first timers. It's really impressive
I mean seriously. Apple didn't even think they would attract this many people.

Re:I've said it before... (1, Informative)

1000101 (584896) | about 10 years ago | (#8797028)

True, if by "take their head out of their ass" you are referring to substantially lowering their prices. The Xserve is priced fairly competitively, but a G5 starts at $1800 and you can get a IBM ThinkCentre S50 for around $900. When ACME Corporation has to purchase 1000 new pc's, which do you think they will choose?

Re:I've said it before... (1)

razmaspaz (568034) | about 10 years ago | (#8797061)

I'm not talking about work stations, Im talking about servers. And try finding a windows server anywhere for under 2500. One with an OS that is.

ROCK OUT WITH YUOR COCK OUT!!!`1~ (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8796833)

Of course it is changing (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8796836)

All the catholic developers (whho were also priests) are in jail or under investigation for buggering their altar boys.

That means that this developers are increasingly from teh ranks of the lay pedos.

May make up for past losses. (3, Interesting)

Kenja (541830) | about 10 years ago | (#8796841)

This may make up for the number of long time Apple devlopers that left after buying 9600 PowerMacs when we where told they would be the devlopment platform of choice for Apples next gen OS.

Re:May make up for past losses. (5, Interesting)

THotze (5028) | about 10 years ago | (#8797018)

The 9600's WERE the developer platform of choice for their next-gen OS. They ran Rhapsody (OS X in its infancy) really well, and they're what Apple used to show off Rhapsody in the "early days". That was in 1997. The 9600 had a 50MHz bus, used 70ns RAM, and, realistically, never ran above 350MHz, or 300MHz (realistically, not ocunting the paper-release of the 350's) at launch.

The 9600 was the preferred way of preparing to do devlopment on Rhapsody for several years after its release (and it had many more expansion slots than the PowerMac G3, which probably made it a better choice for doing driver development on Rhapsody).

OS X wasn't released until 2000, and really, it wasn't till the end of 2001 that any sane person would consider using it. By that point, the 9600 was four years old, TWO processor generations out of the lead, and didn't have hte kind of graphics processor that OS X wanted.

If Apple HAD made OS X work on the 9600, either OS X would have had to have shipped with many fewer features, or it would have CRAWLED to thep oint of a standstill (Remember how slow 10.0 was? Now, imagine that on a computer that had a 50MHz bus). Those who bought a 9600 could use it for about 3 years of software development before it was outdated, and it is still a decent development machine for OS 8.x and 9.x applications.

In short, in 1997, when developers were asking for development machines for Rhapsody, the 9600 was the best Apple could do. The comptuers available by OS X's actual release were SO MUCH faster that you'd be insane to say that the 9600 should have stayed compatible.

Re:May make up for past losses. (5, Interesting)

Kenja (541830) | about 10 years ago | (#8797091)

Too bad very few apps made for Rhapsody ran on OS X. My company and others I knew blew a LOT of cash while Apple was promising to release Rhapsody "any day now". From where I sat, Apple was clearing out their warehouses of old computers by fostering them off on developers. Knowing full well that they where door stops.

Bottom line is that Apple used up a lot of "good faith" it had with the development community, regardless of if you agree with the reasons or not. They lost developers that they sorely needed and need.

Don't even get me started on Yellow Box.

Simple reason (3, Interesting)

bonch (38532) | about 10 years ago | (#8797165)

Cocoa kicks ass to develop with. Most people who use it can't imagine having not used it before. It's up there with .NET as far as positive developer reaction, but I think Cocoa is probably even more elegant

Cocoa (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8796844)

Cocoa is better than java, but i don't like it.
C and SDL, man...

oh, and fp.

:O (0, Flamebait)

SaintDogbert (769096) | about 10 years ago | (#8796859)

What are these people doing?! Linux is free.. and you dont need to buy completely new hardware!

Re::O (3, Insightful)

Timesprout (579035) | about 10 years ago | (#8796895)

Some people have no problem paying for quality products

Re::O (1)

jwthompson2 (749521) | about 10 years ago | (#8797026)

And others blindly buy total crap cause everyone else uses it...

And then there are the Linux desktop folks...no idea what to say about them....

-
Mac on the desktop, Linux in the server room and Windows in the dupster...ahh Utopia.

Re::O (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8797080)

Windows in the dupster...ahh Utopia.

Pity that the spellchecker was on the Windows machine, though...

Re::O (1)

jwthompson2 (749521) | about 10 years ago | (#8797111)

Too bad I happen to be using a windows box to read and post right now, otherwise your comment might have had merit.

Re::O (4, Insightful)

avalys (221114) | about 10 years ago | (#8796951)

OS X has all the power of Linux coupled with a better UI and greater availability of commercial applications.

I know lots of people (including myself) who are looking to replace their aging PC systems with Apples. Since we'd be buying completely new hardware anyway, the platform difference isn't a good reason not to buy a Mac.

Re::O (3, Interesting)

Oculus Habent (562837) | about 10 years ago | (#8797032)

Darwin is free, and doesn't require new hardware, either. However, the robust, consistent GUI is a big draw for people developing interfaces.

And Darwin will integrate nicely between your old, busted and your completely new hardware. (j/k)

In other news, it's confirmed, the sky is blue (0, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8796867)

Did anyone really think this wouldn't happen? Those who are surprised need to stay after school and study their 'get a clue' guides in more depth.

Correct me if I am wrong, but (5, Insightful)

kemapa (733992) | about 10 years ago | (#8796870)

Does this not make perfect sense? I mean... how large can the learning curve be for Unix developers moving to MacOS X?

Depends on what they're planning to develop (5, Insightful)

PlatinumInitiate (768660) | about 10 years ago | (#8797054)

Does this not make perfect sense? I mean... how large can the learning curve be for Unix developers moving to MacOS X?

The core of OS X is Darwin, which is based on FreeBSD, but the upper layers of the OS are based on Apple's own APIs (such as Cocoa, Carbon, etc) and NeXT framework. So, depending on what the Unix developers are planning to write (lower level stuff will undoubtedly be very similar, but higher level stuff will probably be quite different, unless they use X11 on OS X, which is also possible), the degree of difficulty in adapting will vary.

However, Unix developers, usually being quite descerning, will probably find OS X to be an extremely well designed and put together development platform. It's great to see support for this OS increasing, Apple certainly deserves it.

Re:Correct me if I am wrong, but (5, Insightful)

HeghmoH (13204) | about 10 years ago | (#8797077)

It depends on what you're writing.

If you're writing command-line tools, servers, or X11 apps, it's basically a slightly-strange BSD. A lot of code compiles and runs with no modification, and a lot more just requires some small tweaks.

However, if you're writing a GUI application, the APIs are totally different. Mac OS X doesn't use X11 for "normal" apps. You can use standard Java APIs, and some toolkits like Qt have been ported, but for the most part they don't produce an app that feels like a native application. If you're writing programs for the desktop, there's a big difference. But even then, unix experience can come in handy for the non-GUI parts of the application.

Re:Correct me if I am wrong, but (5, Insightful)

cheide (731641) | about 10 years ago | (#8797083)

It depends on what kind of Mac developer you want to be.

It's easy enough to run the X11 server, install all your familiar old packages via Fink, and use it pretty much like you would have used your previous UNIX setup.

On the other end, if you want to be a 'true' Mac OS X developer, there are a few barriers to overcome:
- Switching from GTK/Qt to the Cocoa or Carbon frameworks
- Learning Objective-C (assuming you use the Cocoa framework)
- Bundling applications and libraries properly
- Following the Aqua UI guidelines
- Integrating with other components like AppleScript nicely

The advantage is that you can at least start out in the old, familiar environment while you work towards learning the new, preferred methods.

(I've recently switched, though I'm still near the 'old-school' end of the spectrum for now.)

Does that mean... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8796871)

... there are now heterosexual Mac developers?

Personally... (2, Insightful)

avalys (221114) | about 10 years ago | (#8796873)

While I can't speak for anyone else, this certainly makes sense to me.

I've been a Windows user / Linux tinkerer ever since I first started using computers, but when I go to college (MIT!) this fall it'll be with a new Powerbook. Aside from the great hardware design, OS X is the perfect blend of usability and power for my purposes.

Re:Personally... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8796935)

bastard...

Re:Personally... (1)

avalys (221114) | about 10 years ago | (#8796998)

Huh? My parents aren't paying for the Powerbook, if that's what you're irked about.

Re:Personally... (0, Informative)

rnd() (118781) | about 10 years ago | (#8797016)

As a college Freshman I made the mistake of buying a brand new Apple PowerBook 5300. At the time it was the first PPC laptop and was touted as being really great.

It was a total piece of junk and the worst $2300 I have ever spent. There ended up being a product recall (twice) on 5300s, but mine had already gone back and forth to Apple twice and they'd claimed both times that everything was 100% perfect. Obviously it crashed all the time for no reason which was why I had sent it to them.

Apple has gotten its act together a bit since then, but I still think you'd be better off with an x86 running linux or Windows.

5300/190 issues (1)

Oculus Habent (562837) | about 10 years ago | (#8797094)

Yeah, I bought the 190, which suffered from many of the same problems - not the burning batteries of the first release, though.

The power connector was crap I snapped and re-soldered mine three times, and have seen another 190 and two 5300's with the same problem.

Apple did offer a trade-in on all 190 and 5300 models - get a PowerBook G3 (Pismo) for $1900. It was a good trade, for my $900 190, and I still use my Pismo.

Re:Personally... (1)

abzorb (250578) | about 10 years ago | (#8797110)


If you have the money go for it! Most people going into school would be fine with linux or Windows.

Re:Personally... - will be modded flamebait, mah (0)

Morganth (137341) | about 10 years ago | (#8797103)

First of all, I'm not sure if this post's purpose was to brag about MIT or if it was to brag about a Powerbook. But anyway, I'll leave that alone.

I don't see why it's modded Insightful. I'm in a CS department of a less prestigious school (but still a good one) and in the advanced courses running OS X makes life difficult. It's not because there aren't Mac dev tools available (which there are), but because some courses dive into assembly to understand machine architecture (there is a distinct x86 bias for obvious reasons) and if you're running Mac OS you have to do all this work through Virtual PC, which can be a pain.

Of course, I just realized parent might not even be majoring in CS, since MIT has other majors (with higher enrollment nowadays, I bet!...)

Developer Profile Changing? (4, Funny)

lukewarmfusion (726141) | about 10 years ago | (#8796877)

"Apple Developer Profile Changing?"

What, like - no more single, fat, balding, Mountain Dew drinkers?*

Oh wait, that's not just Apple Developers...

*I'm a developer, too. Yes, it's self-deprecating humor. Thanks, I know.

A Good Product (4, Insightful)

Lewis Daggart (539805) | about 10 years ago | (#8796886)

Apple has a good product, its that simple. Its not a product I personally use, but it has its good points, and people are noticing it. And OSX really adds to the whole appeal.

Re:A Good Product (2, Insightful)

mider (562943) | about 10 years ago | (#8796997)

I would have to agree, from what I have seen OSX is the best of both worlds. It has a beautiful interface and real power under the hood. I would also think the learning curve from a *nix platform to OSX would be minuscule. I could really see Apple taking hold in the enterprise world, assuming they lower prices of hardware and get a two/three buttom mouse.

Re:2/3 button mice (1, Informative)

Enucite (10192) | about 10 years ago | (#8797154)

The thing is--with Mac software--you don't need multiple mouse buttons any more than you need multiple letter keys.

Why don't we see anyone shouting for multiple X, C, V, or Z keys because it's too hard to cut, copy, paste and undo the way things are now?

Re:A Good Product (2, Informative)

Oculus Habent (562837) | about 10 years ago | (#8797155)

Still stuck on the mouse button issue? Just go buy one... any generic two-button USB mouse will work. One of my co-workers prefers the Microsoft Intellimouse Optical on his Mac. It works fine. Scroll wheel, too. If you want one, go buy the kind you like. You'll be even happier with that than the $2 branded Logitech rip-off that Dell gives you.

bah (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8796891)

os/x is boring. everything is boring. i'm gonna go get me a used amiga on ebay.

I can see why (3, Interesting)

CharAznable (702598) | about 10 years ago | (#8796897)

I can see why. I used Macs for years but I didn't write a line of code for them (except java) until Mac OS X came out.

Re:I can see why (2, Insightful)

lacrymology.com (583077) | about 10 years ago | (#8796977)

"I used Macs for years but I didn't write a line of code for them (except java) until Mac OS X came out."

Well, OSX proved to be the first time that Apple truly embraced the developer community by packaging professional grade tools with the OS.
-m

Slashdot and US-ASCII (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8796902)

Did you ever wonder why Slashdot only supports 7-bit ASCII, i.e. no extended ASCII, Unicode or ISO-8859 characters?

Because Slashdot is a wholly American and Patriot website, that's why.

Think about it! Do you want Slashdot to become a forum for terrorists, where they can freely discuss plans for taking away our freedom and killing our brave soldiers through HORRIBLE ACTS OF TERRORISM in their own language and the heathen Arabic script? Unicode, a system that enables terrorists worldwide to plan terrorist actions and communicate through the Internet. Though most try to cover it up, it is no secret to most IT-savvy Americans that Unicode development is partly funded by Al-Qaeda and partly by the French, dictator-supporting government.

There is none of that anti-social trash here. Slashdot supports only AMERICAN, PATRIOTIC CHARACTERS. Eurotrash, look out, because you can't use your fucking umlauts and ~'s here. We saved your sorry asses in World War II -- the least you can do is show some fucking respect and use our alphabet. Slashdot does not support your anti-American characters. 7-bit ASCII (American Standard Code for Information Interchange) is commonly known as US-ASCII. This speaks for itself. The one and only choice for PATRIOTIC AMERICANS is US-ASCII, the STANDARD CODE for the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. I'm proud to be an American, and I'm PROUD be a member of this patriotic, American Slashdot community. I am not going to let freedom-hating terrorists plot evil plans on an American-owned, FREE SPEECH website.

Do not believe the terrorist propaganda lies.
Boycott Unicode -- it is a tool of terrorism.
USE ANYTHING OTHER THAN US-ASCII AND THE TERRORISTS HAVE ALREADY WON.

It's pretty easy to see why. (2, Insightful)

Sheetrock (152993) | about 10 years ago | (#8796907)

Despite the unfortunate price/performance ratio of their hardware (as compared to PC equipment), the operating environment is quite conducive to programming. Add to that the general reliability of its operating system and programs as well as the general feeling of superiority that once accompanied Linux use and you've got a winner.

The only thing I can't understand is why iTunes and QuickTime seem so inferior on Windows. If that's a byproduct of crossplatform programming, I don't know that I'd be that eager to switch (no matter how nice the development environment is, it's the final product that counts.) But other than that, I think they're on to something.

Re:It's pretty easy to see why. (1, Troll)

computerme (655703) | about 10 years ago | (#8797002)

>Despite the unfortunate price/performance ratio of their hardware (as compared to PC equipment),

You mean that same price / performance "disparity" that BLEW AWAY Dell and any and all other intel based supercompter clusters?

That must be the reason why VT choose G5s and OSX... :)
In some areas that may be true, but in others, say Supercomputing Clusters, its just not the case...

once? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8797062)


the general feeling of superiority that once accompanied Linux


You must be new here.

Re:It's pretty easy to see why. (2, Insightful)

MBCook (132727) | about 10 years ago | (#8797106)

I understand what you mean. Apple hardware seems as good or (often) better than PC hardware, and their OS is amazing. When I buy a new computer it will be a Mac. It's too bad they don't get more customers (which they deserve considering their OS has, among other things, basically no viruses) but when you can buy a new PC from Dell for $500 and the lowest end mac is $700 or so, they'll have a hard time (despite the fact that a $700 Mac is better than basically any $700 PC if you consider what's included in software and such). Also, where are the ads? A few for the iPod, a few for the G5 when it first came out, otherwise there is NO advertising for Macs that I see (compared to Dell, HP, Best Buy, and tons of other places advertising PCs).

As for iTunes/QuickTime being slower on windows, I think that they are probably doing everything themselves (even low-level stuff like "did the user click this button" because then they can make things look exactly like they want) and that's what's causing the slowness. That's my only complaint about iTunes and QT, because otherwise they (especially iTunes) are great pieces of software.

Blah Blah Blah Worse than Microsoft (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8796908)

Apples are for wannabe Linux/Unix users who just can't cut it on Linux/Unix.

only good apples are in apple pie (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8796969)

eating apple pie and watching janet jackson jump on a trampoline

maybe some coffee and a doobie too. and a frigging amiga 500.

hells yeah.

300,000 developers for under 5 % of market share (4, Insightful)

giaguara (632198) | about 10 years ago | (#8796909)

300,000 registered developers (and a number of unregistered developers for their own use) for a platform that has under 5 % of market share is a pretty good number.
I can't at least imagine windows having a similar relationship of developers/users.

Re:300,000 developers for under 5 % of market shar (3, Interesting)

Dolly_Llama (267016) | about 10 years ago | (#8796991)

Considering there is a hardware discount for developers, many of that number aren't necessarily active coders, but simply signed up as developers for the discount.

Re:300,000 developers for under 5 % of market shar (5, Insightful)

foo12 (585116) | about 10 years ago | (#8797079)

IANAD (..not a developer) but the hardware discount doesn't kick-in at the free sign-up level --- you have to be a paid member. Even then, it's still worth it if you're planning a major hardware purchase.

Re:300,000 developers for under 5 % of market shar (5, Insightful)

proj_2501 (78149) | about 10 years ago | (#8797022)

well, part of the key thing is that apple allows you to register as a developer for free, and they give away all their tools and docs, unlike microsoft who charges you a few grand for the privilege of developing windows software.

Re:300,000 developers for under 5 % of market shar (1)

prockcore (543967) | about 10 years ago | (#8797143)

unlike microsoft who charges you a few grand for the privilege of developing windows software.

Actually, .net comes with csc (the C# compiler) for free. Add SharpDevelop and you have a very high class IDE for free.

But you're obviously talking about Visual Studio, which, if MS started giving away for free, people would start screaming antitrust.

Re:300,000 developers for under 5 % of market shar (4, Interesting)

prockcore (543967) | about 10 years ago | (#8797090)

300,000 registered developers (and a number of unregistered developers for their own use) for a platform that has under 5 % of market share is a pretty good number.

I'm a registered developer on OSX, yet I don't develop on OSX.. You need to be a registered developer just to download GCC. Just because I wanted to compile an app on OSX doesn't mean I'm an OSX developer.

You need to be a registered developer to download the source for Darwin Streaming Server (so even if you run it on Linux you're still considered an "OSX developer")

So that 300,000 number is grossly inflated.

Yes, I'm in that boat (4, Interesting)

bigberk (547360) | about 10 years ago | (#8796913)

I'm a long time software developer who codes predominantly for Windows and UNIX, but because Macs have embraced the UNIX architecture I would now like to start coding for OS X. I personally feel that Mac OS has a much brighter future than Windows (still not sure about Linux desktop).

It would not be a stretch to say that I'm willing to ditch Windows in favour of Linux and Mac OS.

So far, I have found wxWidgets [wxwidgets.org] which is a C++ toolset that allows the creation of cross-platform GUIs (Windows, Linux, Solaris, MacOS) that uses native GUI elements on each platform (unlike GTK+ or Qt which end up looking non-native). To me this seems like the best way for a programmer to get into cross-platform, including Mac, programming. You don't sacrifice Windows compatibility.

except.. (4, Insightful)

CoolMoDee (683437) | about 10 years ago | (#8797071)

I too am in the boat, however, I thought the same as well (about wxWidgets), until I started programming with Cocoa and Objective-C. Once I got the hang of the syntax and using Interface Builder w/ Project Builder / XCode, I find it a pain to develop any other way. Sure I don't have crossplatform as much (gnustep?) but, I guess it is once you go NeXT you never go back.

Re:Yes, I'm in that boat (3, Insightful)

afidel (530433) | about 10 years ago | (#8797129)

Sorry but there is NO cross platform toolkit that is going to look native across those plaftforms. Using native elements doesn't make it native, it just makes it less foreign looking. The functionality and GUI design elements for those OS's are so far from each other that simply changing window dressing isn't going to make the functionality of an app apear native.

the whole picture (2, Informative)

cmdr_forge (588346) | about 10 years ago | (#8796937)

I think alot of people are starting to make the move over to somehting that is more usable that strikes a very safe balance between a easy to use desktop and unix. It also shows the level of effort that apple has gone to make development and skill even easier.

Maybe we can get a decent ftp client now? (3, Interesting)

abischof (255) | about 10 years ago | (#8796941)

With all these Unix & Open Source developers flocking our way, I can only hope that one of them might develop a decent ftp client for OS X :). Granted, there are some decent payware clients (like Transit [panic.com] ), but is an ftp client really worth $25? On the free side, RBrowser Lite [rbrowser.com] comes close, except that it can't change permissions [rbrowser.com] on the remote host :-/.

Re:Maybe we can get a decent ftp client now? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8797015)

Are you saying that wget and ncftp have not been ported to Macs?

Re:Maybe we can get a decent ftp client now? (3, Informative)

mcwop (31034) | about 10 years ago | (#8797038)

Have you tried any FTP clients built for X11? Of course, if you know UNIX commands then the terminal app in OS X is a good place to work.

Re:Maybe we can get a decent ftp client now? (1)

JackRuby43 (588879) | about 10 years ago | (#8797067)

I made a sizeable donation to the FileZilla guys for the Win32 version and I'd donate again for an OS X version!!

Hint Hint

Re:Maybe we can get a decent ftp client now? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8797114)

In order to change permissions you have to be logged in as root anyway. you shouldn't be connecting to an ftp site as root. it is just a bad idea, especially because the password is sent plain text

Slashdot and US-ASCII (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8796945)

Did you ever wonder why Slashdot only supports 7-bit ASCII, i.e. no extended ASCII, Unicode or ISO-8859 characters?

Because Slashdot is a wholly American and Patriot website, that's why.

Think about it! Do you want Slashdot to become a forum for terrorists, where they can freely discuss plans for taking away our freedom and killing our brave soldiers through HORRIBLE ACTS OF TERRORISM in their own language and the heathen Arabic script? Unicode, a system that enables terrorists worldwide to plan terrorist actions and communicate through the Internet. Though most try to cover it up, it is no secret to most IT-savvy Americans that Unicode development is partly funded by Al-Qaeda and partly by the French, dictator-supporting government. Here's proof. [bearload.com]

There is none of that anti-social trash here. Slashdot supports only AMERICAN, PATRIOTIC CHARACTERS. Eurotrash, look out, because you can't use your fucking umlauts and ~'s here. We saved your sorry asses in World War II -- the least you can do is show some fucking respect and use our alphabet. Slashdot does not support your anti-American characters. 7-bit ASCII (American Standard Code for Information Interchange) is commonly known as US-ASCII. This speaks for itself. The one and only choice for PATRIOTIC AMERICANS is US-ASCII, the STANDARD CODE for the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. I'm proud to be an American, and I'm PROUD be a member of this patriotic, American Slashdot community. I am not going to let freedom-hating terrorists plot evil plans on an American-owned, FREE SPEECH website.

Do not believe the terrorist propaganda lies.
Boycott Unicode -- it is a tool of terrorism.
USE ANYTHING OTHER THAN US-ASCII AND THE TERRORISTS HAVE ALREADY WON.

cocoa (3, Insightful)

devonbowen (231626) | about 10 years ago | (#8796967)

I'm writing my first MacOS app now after decades with UNIX and X windows. I have to say I'm impressed with the Interface Builder and with the use of Objective-C as the main Cocoa language.

But on the other hand, I think their class library leaves a lot to be desired. When I'm coding in Java and I'm working with, say, a collection class, I usually think "gee it would be nice if a method to do blah existed". And when I look it up, it's almost always there. The Java designers seem to think the way I do. But in Cocoa, it seems like the methods are rarely what I expect and I have to spent a lot of time figuring out how they want me to do it. Things that I feel should take me 5 minutes to code can actually take hours. It can be rather frustrating. Has anyone had similar experiences?

That said, a lot of the core of this system was developed with the NeXT machine a long time ago. So I guess I have to cut them some slack there. Still, would be nice to have things modernized a bit. Just my experience...

Devon

Re:cocoa (1)

guet (525509) | about 10 years ago | (#8797128)

Care to give some examples? I haven't done any Java development (yeah, I know, I'm a bit late on that bandwagon : ). Was wondering what sort of things you miss? Having come from C++ the delegation and bindings stuff are the things I like about Cocoa/Objective-C. I quite like the Collection classes in cocoa BTW, NSArray (or EDSortedArray if you want a sorted version), NSDictionary and NSSet. They are quite basic though I guess.

Re:cocoa (3, Informative)

CoolMoDee (683437) | about 10 years ago | (#8797137)

I was the same way, until I learned my way around the api, a great resource, if you don't already know about it is the Cocoa Mailing lists. http://cocoa.mamasam.com/ is a nice archive. I do agree it would be nice it some parts of it were more modernized (e.g. a nice Quicktime API) but im not sure when/if that will ever happen.

What about Darwin? (4, Insightful)

Oculus Habent (562837) | about 10 years ago | (#8796974)

It strikes me that Darwin could be much bigger than it is...

Darwin comes with all the OS underpinnings of Mac OS X, right? Sure, no GUI, but what about the significant features - CUPS, CIFS, AFP, webDAV - aren't they there? If your company is looking at Linux but is facing those integration problems, isn't this an ideal solution? OS X on the desktop, Darwin on the servers that don't need a GUI.

Re:What about Darwin? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8797116)

It does have a GUI - if you count X11. I believe KDE and Gnome work. If you are satisfied with Linux GUIs, Darwin should be OK too.

Re:What about Darwin? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8797152)

Except that Darwin has lots of issues, outside the cosy Mac OS X environment... Such as failing to recognize non-SCSI disks and even some Mac hardware.

good for them (0, Funny)

happyfrogcow (708359) | about 10 years ago | (#8796979)

I for one do not welcome our sugar coated OSX overlords.

Re:good for them (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8797046)

I for one do not welcome our sugar coated OSX overlords.

Actually it's too "fruity" for my taste.

Slashdot and US-ASCII (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8796981)

Did you ever wonder why Slashdot only supports 7-bit ASCII, i.e. no extended ASCII, Unicode or ISO-8859 characters?

Because Slashdot is a wholly American and Patriot website, that's why.

Think about it! Do you want Slashdot to become a forum for terrorists, where they can freely discuss plans for taking away our freedom and killing our brave soldiers through HORRIBLE ACTS OF TERRORISM in their own language and the heathen Arabic script? Unicode, a system that enables terrorists worldwide to plan terrorist actions and communicate through the Internet. Though most try to cover it up, it is no secret to most IT-savvy Americans that Unicode development is partly funded by Al-Qaeda and partly by the French, dictator-supporting government.

There is none of that anti-social trash here. Slashdot supports only AMERICAN, PATRIOTIC CHARACTERS. Eurotrash, look out, because you can't use your fucking umlauts and ~'s here. We saved your sorry asses in World War II -- the least you can do is show some fucking respect and use our alphabet. Slashdot does not support your anti-American characters. 7-bit ASCII (American Standard Code for Information Interchange) is commonly known as US-ASCII. This speaks for itself. The one and only choice for PATRIOTIC AMERICANS is US-ASCII, the STANDARD CODE for the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. I'm proud to be an American, and I'm PROUD be a member of this patriotic, American Slashdot community. I am not going to let freedom-hating terrorists plot evil plans on an American-owned, FREE SPEECH website.

Do not believe the terrorist propaganda lies.
Boycott Unicode -- it is a tool of terrorism.
USE ANYTHING OTHER THAN US-ASCII AND THE TERRORISTS HAVE ALREADY WON.

Makes sense... (1, Interesting)

TheMadRedHatter (716344) | about 10 years ago | (#8796983)

It makes a lot of sense.
Apple has made it easier to program for OS X. The integration of Interface Builder and XCode certainly makes it easier than programming in Mac OS 'Classic'. You don't have to mess with Carbon or resource forks either. And since it's built on Unix, Unix developers don't have to do much work to get it to work under X.

TheMadRedHatter

Slashdot and US-ASCII (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8796995)

Did you ever wonder why Slashdot only supports 7-bit ASCII, i.e. no extended ASCII, Unicode or ISO-8859 characters?

Because Slashdot is a wholly American and Patriot website, that's why.

Think about it! Do you want Slashdot to become a forum for terrorists, where they can freely discuss plans for taking away our freedom and killing our brave soldiers through HORRIBLE ACTS OF TERRORISM in their own language and the heathen Arabic script? Unicode, a system that enables terrorists worldwide to plan terrorist actions and communicate through the Internet. Though most try to cover it up, it is no secret to most IT-savvy Americans that Unicode development is partly funded by Al-Qaeda and partly by the French, dictator-supporting government.

There is none of that anti-social trash here. Slashdot supports only AMERICAN, PATRIOTIC CHARACTERS. Eurotrash, look out, because you can't use your fucking umlauts and ~'s here. We saved your sorry asses in World War II -- the least you can do is show some fucking respect and use our alphabet. Slashdot does not support your anti-American characters. 7-bit ASCII (American Standard Code for Information Interchange) is commonly known as US-ASCII. This speaks for itself. The one and only choice for PATRIOTIC AMERICANS is US-ASCII, the STANDARD CODE for the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. I'm proud to be an American, and I'm PROUD be a member of this patriotic, American Slashdot community. I am not going to let freedom-hating terrorists plot evil plans on an American-owned, FREE SPEECH website.

Do not believe the terrorist propaganda lies.
Boycott Unicode -- it is a tool of terrorism.
USE ANYTHING OTHER THAN US-ASCII AND THE TERRORISTS HAVE ALREADY WON.

another explanation (4, Insightful)

cacheMan (150533) | about 10 years ago | (#8797006)

Becoming a registered developer is the easiest way to download the development tools (standard gnu stuff that is missing from OS X). I am a registered developer, but I don't want to develop on OS X. I just want gcc when I'm there to fool around with.

FUD (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8797027)

Whoa! This is *not* true. Developers are flocking to open source in general, not apple in particular. The futures of SUN, Apple and Microsoft depend on developers. It's in their best interest to spin the story their way. The arrogance and greed can get a little out of hand. The bending of reality (imagine the Steve Jobs reality distortion field combined with Bill Gates' budget) will happen.

Of course, Apple fans will gloat along with Apple marketing about any spin their way. Have fun, guys.

Slashdot and US-ASCII (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8797041)

Did you ever wonder why Slashdot only supports 7-bit ASCII, i.e. no extended ASCII, Unicode or ISO-8859 characters?

Because Slashdot is a wholly American and Patriot website, that's why.

Think about it! Do you want Slashdot to become a forum for terrorists, where they can freely discuss plans for taking away our freedom and killing our brave soldiers through HORRIBLE ACTS OF TERRORISM in their own language and the heathen Arabic script? Unicode, a system that enables terrorists worldwide to plan terrorist actions and communicate through the Internet. Though most try to cover it up, it is no secret to most IT-savvy Americans that Unicode development is partly funded by Al-Qaeda and partly by the French, dictator-supporting government.

There is none of that anti-social trash here. Slashdot supports only AMERICAN, PATRIOTIC CHARACTERS. Eurotrash, look out, because you can't use your fucking umlauts and ~'s here. We saved your sorry asses in World War II -- the least you can do is show some fucking respect and use our alphabet. Slashdot does not support your anti-American characters. 7-bit ASCII (American Standard Code for Information Interchange) is commonly known as US-ASCII. This speaks for itself. The one and only choice for PATRIOTIC AMERICANS is US-ASCII, the STANDARD CODE for the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. I'm proud to be an American, and I'm PROUD be a member of this patriotic, American Slashdot community. I am not going to let freedom-hating terrorists plot evil plans on an American-owned, FREE SPEECH website.

Do not believe the terrorist propaganda lies.
Boycott Unicode -- it is a tool of terrorism.
USE ANYTHING OTHER THAN US-ASCII AND THE TERRORISTS HAVE ALREADY WON.

Way to suck Apple's marketing cock... (-1, Troll)

yrch93 (15190) | about 10 years ago | (#8797052)

...by promoting their assertion (true or false) that lots of /.-er types are developing for OS X.

Gee, do you think Ron Okamoto has anything to GAIN by getting this story covered by /.?

Indirectly, this benefits Windows too (4, Insightful)

parvenu74 (310712) | about 10 years ago | (#8797058)

The trend of Unix and enterprise programmers moving to or "showing great interest" in MacOS X is something that could be a "tide that lifts all boats." Given that MacOS X is built on BSD and therefore a secure and nearly-bulletproof operating system), an upsurge in high quality, secure, robust enterprise calibre apps on the MacOS X platform will be great for business at large.

And rest assured that Microsoft will do something to respond to the competitive threat. If the threat of Java gave us .NET, then maybe the threat of MacOS X will bring a truly secure and robust Windows platform...

"Moving To"? Bad Marketroid Phrase (4, Insightful)

EQ (28372) | about 10 years ago | (#8797066)

[Open Source/Unix/Linux] "Developers are moving to OSX"


This tries to imply that they are leaving those environments and changing over to the OSX environment. Bad Spinmeistering by an Apple Rep. Its more like "Now that you have a BSD substrate I can add OSX to the list of ports I support for my apps".

The developers are no more "moving to" OSX than they are "moving to" FreeBSD when they port an app there. He should have said something more like ... developers are adding OSX to their target OS's... Why do Apple types have to spin so hard all the time? They have a good OS and a decent hardware platform.

(Personal feelings: I wish they would port OSX to Athlon64 or Intel architecture and more open/non-proprietary hardware components.)

I'm one of those developers (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8797073)

My main workstation used to be Linux, but about a year ago I moved to a dual-CPU PowerMac running OS X, and I love it. I develop in Java and C++, and C (and am toying with C# -- I know, heresy), support and deploy to Linux servers, and need to interoperate with lots of Windows users in my company.

The Mac has been been rock-solid, has the best GUI on the market, excellent Java integration, and runs everything I want.

Eclipse, iTunes, Firefox, Cisco VPN, VNC, ssh, bash, gcc, emacs, X11, samba, MS Office, et cetera. I'm even running Mono on it. If I need to support a Linux server I ssh into it; with the -X option I can even run Linux GUI apps from the server, if I need to. If I need to open an Office document, I just open it (yeah, yeah, I know Open Office is coming along...). The Fink project gives me access to tons of ported Unix and Linux applications and libraries. I like it. I still like Linux, too, but for my main workstation, Make Mine Mac.

Why bother? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8797075)

Why bother developing for a platoform based on on a dead [freebsd.org] operating system with less than 3% marketshare? Did I also mention that its user base is mainly homosexuals?

im primarily (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8797076)

A Windows and Linux user, but both have been getting a bit annoying lately, Windows makes me want to cry and Linux sometimes needs too much hand-holding, so I'd like to try OS X but it's simply too expensive, and I'm not willing to pay that much to try an operating system. I don't want to have to buy a new computer, and certainly won't until they release a cheaper version. They're pricing themselves out of the competition.

Egalitarian Computing (-1, Flamebait)

nfotxn (519715) | about 10 years ago | (#8797081)

I think this has been Apple's plan since the inception of OSX. It's not much of a secret that Open Source and even most commercial *nix desktops kinda sucks usability wise. Tap into Open Source software development and you have tons of apps that are easily ported.

What's important to realize I think is that OS X is still an elitist environment. Cocoa only runs on Apple hardware and tastefully designed or not Apple hardware is expensive. So the software has to remain portable. Otherwise you just have OSS developers lining Apple's pockets with their hard work rather than creating something free that benefits all of society. Infact this is probably my only beef with Apple Computere these days. They're very much a luxury brand, like the Mercedes or BMW of the IT world, so it makes sense that people who work in IT would flock to them. Great if you can afford it but really unreasonable to expect them to be appropriate for everyone.

Highly usable and elegant computing should be available to everyone.

Slashdot and US-ASCII (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8797085)

Did you ever wonder why Slashdot only supports 7-bit ASCII, i.e. no extended ASCII, Unicode or ISO-8859 characters?

Because Slashdot is a wholly American and Patriot website, that's why.

Think about it! Do you want Slashdot to become a forum for terrorists, where they can freely discuss plans for taking away our freedom and killing our brave soldiers through HORRIBLE ACTS OF TERRORISM in their own language and the heathen Arabic script? Unicode, a system that enables terrorists worldwide to plan terrorist actions and communicate through the Internet. Though most try to cover it up, it is no secret to most IT-savvy Americans that Unicode development is partly funded by Al-Qaeda and partly by the French, dictator-supporting government.

There is none of that anti-social trash here. Slashdot supports only AMERICAN, PATRIOTIC CHARACTERS. Eurotrash, look out, because you can't use your fucking umlauts and ~'s here. We saved your sorry asses in World War II -- the least you can do is show some fucking respect and use our alphabet. Slashdot does not support your anti-American characters. 7-bit ASCII (American Standard Code for Information Interchange) is commonly known as US-ASCII. This speaks for itself. The one and only choice for PATRIOTIC AMERICANS is US-ASCII, the STANDARD CODE for the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. I'm proud to be an American, and I'm PROUD be a member of this patriotic, American Slashdot community. I am not going to let freedom-hating terrorists plot evil plans on an American-owned, FREE SPEECH website.

Do not believe the terrorist propaganda lies.
Boycott Unicode -- it is a tool of terrorism.
USE ANYTHING OTHER THAN US-ASCII AND THE TERRORISTS HAVE ALREADY WON.

90% of messages (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8797087)

90% of the replies to this story will be.

Zah Zah beutiful GUI Uinx Wah Wah of course people are finally coming around. Blah Blah MS sucks flah flah linux to hard Mah Mah Unix something.

Attracting Developers (5, Insightful)

pavon (30274) | about 10 years ago | (#8797104)

I remember when our midschool first got some Macintoshs. I was really excited. They were so much more advanced than computers I had used before. I imediatly jumped on them and started exploring and learning as much as I could about the system. And then a week later I was done. There was nothing more I could explore (shame we didn't have HyperCard). It was a black box, and the privilege of getting inside that black box cost hundreds of dollars in compilers and documentation.

So I got bored, played through some of games, and went back to my Apple IIe at home because it had a basic interpretor, hex editor and assembler and there were still things for me to explore. Latter went on to learn more free development QBasic, Java, C and Perl, which was all in DOS and then Linux. It wasn't until this last year that I used a Mac again.

The original Mac was a great machine for people who just wanted to get stuff done - draw pictures and type report. But I didn't want to that, I wanted to create. I wonder how many potential developers were lost to it like I was. I also wonder what effect good or bad that had on the quality and consistency of the programs. The Mac was always praised for how closely the applications stuck to a consistant guideline, and wonder how much of that was due to the fact that the developers had to be part of an exclusive club to participate.

No suprise to me. (5, Insightful)

C.Batt (715986) | about 10 years ago | (#8797105)

I "switched" last summer because of the combination of Unix power + Apple User Experience.

There's simply no fussing around. The environment fades into the background letting me concentrate on getting work done. XCode is a wonderful, comprehensive IDE and lets me develop OS X or Java apps (which I like) with the same set of great features.

My only beef with this arrangement is that a 1ghz G4 PB is no longer a speed demon. I'd really like to get a G5 PB... c'mon Steve, show us the love.

Is this a typical Apple Programmer? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8797118)

A typical Apple Programmer can be found in this website [lamermelculo.com] , OR IS IT?

It is a mystery, OR IS IT?

Slashdot and US-ASCII (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8797124)

Did you ever wonder why Slashdot only supports 7-bit ASCII, i.e. no extended ASCII, Unicode or ISO-8859 characters?

Because Slashdot is a wholly American and Patriot website, that's why.

Think about it! Do you want Slashdot to become a forum for terrorists, where they can freely discuss plans for taking away our freedom and killing our brave soldiers through HORRIBLE ACTS OF TERRORISM in their own language and the heathen Arabic script? Unicode, a system that enables terrorists worldwide to plan terrorist actions and communicate through the Internet. Though most try to cover it up, it is no secret to most IT-savvy Americans that Unicode development is partly funded by Al-Qaeda and partly by the French, dictator-supporting government.

There is none of that anti-social trash here. Slashdot supports only AMERICAN, PATRIOTIC CHARACTERS. Eurotrash, look out, because you can't use your fucking umlauts and ~'s here. We saved your sorry asses in World War II -- the least you can do is show some fucking respect and use our alphabet. Slashdot does not support your anti-American characters. 7-bit ASCII (American Standard Code for Information Interchange) is commonly known as US-ASCII. This speaks for itself. The one and only choice for PATRIOTIC AMERICANS is US-ASCII, the STANDARD CODE for the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. I'm proud to be an American, and I'm PROUD be a member of this patriotic, American Slashdot community. I am not going to let freedom-hating terrorists plot evil plans on an American-owned, FREE SPEECH website.

Do not believe the terrorist propaganda lies.
Boycott Unicode -- it is a tool of terrorism.
USE ANYTHING OTHER THAN US-ASCII AND THE TERRORISTS HAVE ALREADY WON.

I was working on source code on my dad's PC... (5, Funny)

Fortunato_NC (736786) | about 10 years ago | (#8797126)

And all of a sudden, visual studio was like BEEP BEEP BEEP, and my source code was, like GONE. The PC totally ate my source code!

And it was GOOD source code, too.

I had to retype my source code from scratch, like, REALLY FAST, and my boss thought it was really lousy and so my job got, like, outsourced to like, India.

But my dad got me a new iBook G4 with Xcode, now I never get outsourced!

My name is Ellen Feiss, and I'm a software developer.

http://www.apple.com/switch

Should Help Apple's Slow Java Implementation (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8797162)

... to have thousands of engineers now telling you what they really think of graphics performance on Mac OS X with Java, which is slower than a Sinclair ZX-80.
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