Losing His Religion: Adrian Lamo Interview 208
digidave writes "Six months after the sit-down, TechFocus.org has published their interview with renowned hacker Adrian Lamo. Done before his arrest, TechFocus kept the interview secret so as not to influence the outcome of his trial. It remains his only interview since being arrested."
Only interview? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Only interview? (Score:1, Informative)
And you didn't have to wait six months to see that... use their search engine to find all 22 articles [securityfocus.com]...
Re:Only interview? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Only interview? (Score:2)
Re:Only interview? (Score:5, Informative)
The show does stream live online through www.wbai.org (as to all their programs, to my knowledge).
It has some interesting stuff in it, but I guess I could say that about any of the OTH shows.
Re:Only interview? (Score:3, Interesting)
The NPR interview has an interresting comment.
interviewer: You know it seems to me somebody with your curiosity, your interest and your skill could make for themselves a pretty profitable career as a security expert, obviously.
Adrian: There's things that I've really learned from the process of my crimes and one of them is that the security industry is a dishonest profession. It relies on people's fear; it relies on manufacturing fear by hyping up the vulnerabilities that have no real world application
It Figures the Times would do him in (Score:5, Funny)
Re:It Figures the Times would do him in (Score:2)
Re:It Figures the Times would do him in (Score:5, Funny)
Re:It Figures the Times would do him in (Score:2, Informative)
Re:It Figures the Times would do him in (Score:3, Interesting)
"Although the Times doesn't pay retail for the service, the FBI calculated Lamo's damages using the full Lexis-Nexis rate, which added up to a shocking $300,000. It was clearly a punitive figure. Had Lamo simply bought an unlimited three-month account with Lexis-Nexis rather than piggybacking off the Times, it would have cost him just $1,500."
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.04/hacker_p
IANAL (Score:2)
Re:It Figures the Times would do him in (Score:3, Insightful)
Lamo tells truth and they want to send him to jail.
Luckily, the Times gets more irrelevant every day.
Religion isn't all he's going to lose... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Religion isn't all he's going to lose... (Score:2)
Nah, the worst they could do is send him to one of those white-collar resort prisons...
Re:Religion isn't all he's going to lose... (Score:3, Informative)
On a six-to-twelve month sentence, even if he does it at a joint, it's going to be a Federal prison camp. Highly unlikely he'll be assaulted there.
Propositioned, maybe, but not assaulted.
OTOH, these are not "white-collar resorts". You get more harassment from the staff because they're pissed you're on your way out of the system - and that threatens their job security.
I base these comments on eight years in the Federal prison system as an inmate, so don't even think about contradicting me.
Re:Religion isn't all he's going to lose... (Score:2)
Or you will do . . . what? Send some of your prison buddies after me? Yeah, you are right. I do not think that it would be wise to contradict you.
BTW, of what charges were you convicted? Are you still on parole?
Re:Religion isn't all he's going to lose... (Score:2)
As for other info, do a
Re:Religion isn't all he's going to lose... (Score:2)
Re:Adrians first day in Prison (Score:2)
Re:Adrians first day in Prison (Score:2)
You're an idiot.
Have a nice day with your TIGHT ASSHOLE.
Re:Adrians first day in Prison (Score:2)
Wrong. Since I'm far too old and chubby to be a target, nobody ever even approached me in the joint. The reference to your tight asshole is meant to refer to your miniscule brain.
You, on the other hand, would probably get down in an instant since you obviously are obsessed with the subject.
While prison sex does occur, the incidence is far lower than assumed by closet types like you.
before arrest (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:before arrest (Score:4, Insightful)
No, I'm New Here (Score:2, Funny)
Re:before arrest (Score:2)
Re:before arrest (Score:2)
Re:before arrest (Score:2)
freedom downtime (Score:2)
Slashdotted (Score:5, Informative)
Adrian Lamo
Posted by Bill Royle on April 08, 2004
The companies he broke into reads like a Forbes ranking list. Yahoo! Excite@Home. MCI WorldCom. Microsoft. SBC Ameritech. Cingular.
He got away with it by notifying those companies of the weaknesses, and in some cases helped fix them, for free. Then he set his sights on the New York Times. They were less forgiving. Today, April 8th, Adrian Lamo will be sentenced - having plead guilty.
I first worked to get an interview with Adrian Lamo in July, 2003. Having compromised the networks of some of the most influential companies in the world was not incredibly unusual, but the manner in which it was done was intriguing. Adrian Lamo has been termed the "homeless hacker," the "helpful hacker" and numerous other nicknames - because instead of disappearing into the ether, he would make the company aware of the flaw he had exploited, and in some cases would advise them on how to resolve it. Based on that approach, Lamo was fortunate to have dealt with companies that didn't choose to press charges.
Then, during an interview with SecurityFocus (not affiliated with Techfocus), he admitted to having broken into the NY Times network. The interviewer contacted the New York Times in a request for comment. Shortly thereafter, the FBI started an investigation. He was ultimately arrested in September for the penetration of the New York Times network, and for using their resources. Today he has pleaded guilty to breaking into their network, and for conducting unauthorized searches on Lexis/Nexis - all on the Grey Lady's tab. You can read the original criminal complaint here.
Lamo had another distinction from many hackers - he did so while homeless. While his family was willing to house him, he set off on his own, traveling from place to place via Greyhound. Occasionally he slept on the couches of people he knew in different cities, at other times he would sleep in abandoned buildings or anywhere feasible. All the while, he traversed networks using a battered laptop with a wireless network card.
Adrian Lamo is most assuredly unique. A month after his arrest, I received an email from him asking how the weather was. A bit puzzled, I contacted a mutual acquaintance to verify that it was Adrian. Indeed it was, so we met the next weekend near his home to discuss his background, and the serious charges he faced.
This was no ordinary interview. Not only had Lamo not given any interviews since the arrest, but the FBI had been exerting tremendous pressure on journalists that had spoken with Lamo, demanding that they turn over all notes and correspondence with him. It was only after a strong outcry from the journalistic community and their attorneys that the FBI grudgingly relaxed their demands, but there was little solace in that. As such, there was nothing written down - just a digital voice recorder with a limited battery. Upon the conclusion of the interview, the recording was transcribed to the PC, then sent to an offshore server outside of my control, in the event that an order was made to surrender it. The digital recording was destroyed.
We hope you enjoy the interview.
Update: Sentencing has been delayed until June.
When did you get started getting interested in security online?
"That'd depend on how you define started, I guess. My first exposure to computers was my Dad's Commodore 64 when I was six or seven, and as you may have read somewhere, I was interested in making things work differently than the way they were intended - loading, then inputting it and using the list command to see all of the code contained within it to see what the hell I was supposed to do with this blind corner that didn't seem to go anywhere."
What kind of games?
"Text-based adventure, like Zork-style."
What moved you to move from disk-based security to a larger scale type of interest?
"To
Re:Slashdotted (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Slashdotted (Score:2)
and 6 minutes after posting the interview (Score:1)
Re:and 6 minutes after posting the interview (Score:1)
"Good Server, Bad Code, Evil
Lamo (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Lamo (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.04/hacker_p
Re:Lamo (Score:1, Troll)
'I just try to make things work in a different way.' WTF does that have to do with breaching security on networks? Am I missing something here?
And it remains a secret (Score:3, Funny)
(OT) Whatever you do, don't view the interview in. (Score:1)
Audio link (Score:4, Informative)
New /. record (Score:3, Funny)
IANAL, but... (Score:4, Insightful)
However, he did not damage/alter any of the sites he hacked (excluding NYTimes, which was a minor addition to the list of "experts"). This does not help him in the courts though, because the act of breaking into the company's networks was illegal in itself.
Re:IANAL, but... (Score:3, Insightful)
The United States Constitution holds that no warrant shall issue without probable cause. This means that no Arrest can take place without a Direct Connection to an Injury or the imminent liklihood of such. This NEGATES all this "Law" stuff. There has been no INJURY. For the minor addition line, That is not a material injury.
I love all the ILLEGAL stuff that goes around these days. If we followed the US Constitution such absurd thinking would be drummed out of town. There simply is no probable cause for
Re:IANAL, but... (Score:3, Interesting)
I personally consider $300k pretty injurious.
Actually since he tends to encourage good things...
Like giving an underage (said he was a "kid") herion addict $5 to help fund his habbit.
I'm not saying this guy is completely bad, or that he hasn't been helpful, but he seems to just do things, good or bad, that he feels like doing at the time. Not a problem until he starts breaking the law.
Re:IANAL, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
The FBI calculated the maximum cost of using Lexus Nexus to be $300k. An unlimited 3 month account COULD HAVE BEEN purchased by Mr. Lamo for $1500.
Re:IANAL, but... (Score:3, Insightful)
And even $1,500 is a bit much. If he had not stolen this access, would he have actually bothered to buy it from them? I doubt it, the kid is semi-homeless. Those are not actual damages. NY Times didn't lose any money and Lexis didn't lose any money. At the most they lost a couple of pennies on bandwidth.
Re:IANAL, but... (Score:2)
inflated damages (Score:3, Insightful)
From Wired's interview [wired.com]:
Re:IANAL, but... (Score:2)
You're trying to reverse the direction of circular logic; to disprove something that's already circular.
Legally, an "Injury" is any violation of the "Law". Therefore "Injury" is defined in terms of "Law", and not the other way around, like you're claiming.
If "Injury" legally meant the same thing it did in English (as you claimed), then it'd be impossible for copyright infringment, tresspa
Re:IANAL, but... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:IANAL, but... (Score:2)
Does this mean I can't get someone arrested if that person jumped over my fence and trespassed on to my property?
Re:IANAL, but... (Score:2)
What he has done would be the equal to telling somebody that he found your door unlocked on your car and sent you a picture of him with the door open to prove it.
Except for the fact that he used the credit card he found in your locked car to buy $300,000 of gas.
good job (Score:1)
Good job. Keep up the good work.
Wired article (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.04/hacker.h
He was on Off The Hook on Wednesday (Apr 7) (Score:5, Informative)
Adrian's sentencing has been delayed (Score:3, Informative)
According to this article in PC World, Adrian Lamo's sentencing has been delayed until June:
http://www.snpx.com/cgi-bin/news5.cgi?target=www.I wonder if the the NY Times or the Feds decided to change the terms of the plea agreement at the last minute?
A better URL (Score:1, Informative)
Fresh taste of burnt spin in the morning (Score:3, Interesting)
That's a nice bit of spin. They did it because they're a website, so in the eyes of the legal system, they're not decisively a "real" news organization, so they knew they'd get subpoenaed in a second by either prosecutors and have to turn over everything; it'd be a legal battle that would get drawn out for months given the stakes. The EFF would probably get involved, etc. A good deal of their notes etc would probably be very, very incriminating to Lamo, since hackers, like most stupid criminals, love to brag about their crimes.
So, in other words, they danced on the line of hiding criminal evidence. It would not be a stretch for them to get charged themselves. I'd be absolutely amazed if they didn't at least get subpoenaed within the next few days and the evidence used to file new charges against Lamo.
Re:Fresh taste of burnt spin in the morning (Score:1)
There is no new evidence there ; the fbi already got their conviction and the author explains that he destroyed the originals. Also, i'm not sure of the arbitrary distinction between 'news' and 'web site'. It may be some justice department rhetoric but I'd want to see the case where a court substantially upheld a non-trivial difference between the two.
Re:Fresh taste of burnt spin in the morning (Score:5, Informative)
First off, we knew we'd get subpoenaed, and were ready if that happened.
Second, the notes aren't incriminating to Lamo beyond what some might find offensive regarding his personality (ie. giving someone money to help them get drugs.) If that's pretext for additional charges, we're all in trouble.
Third, none of the the questions or the answers related to his crimes or hacks. What you see in the interview is the transcription of our interview, verbatim.
Thus, under your criteria, prepare to be amazed.
You're new here, right? (Score:4, Funny)
You're new here, right?
(and that the original poster got it a bit wrong.)
Er, um...again...you're new here, right?
Interview text (Score:5, Informative)
When did you get started getting interested in security online?
"That'd depend on how you define started, I guess. My first exposure to computers was my Dad's Commodore 64 when I was six or seven, and as you may have read somewhere, I was interested in making things work differently than the way they were intended - loading, then inputting it and using the list command to see all of the code contained within it to see what the hell I was supposed to do with this blind corner that didn't seem to go anywhere."
What kind of games?
"Text-based adventure, like Zork-style."
What moved you to move from disk-based security to a larger scale type of interest?
"To me there's never been that much of a differentiation, in the sense that what I do is less about a particular methodology of technology that's applicable to some technology but not applicable to others. And more about seeing things differently - seeing things that people see everyday, but seeing them in a way that they never saw, that people who created them never intended them to be seen. To see them, to see what is around them and make them more as the sum of their parts and in doing so cause them to operate in a way that was never intended, expected or even thought possible."
Have you always done this type of thing alone, or do you prefer doing it in a team of other people?
"I've always worked alone pretty much. I will occasionally give pointers, but I very much believe that nobody should look at me as an example to be followed - in the sense that if there's anything that I've done, it's... occupied a space in our world that previously was not occupied. And if there's anything that I can say to anybody that is considering starting out on their own, it's to do something that nobody before them has done. And as such, if I was to really try to unduly influence anybody's path, even by working with them, I'd think that I'd be being untrue to the nature of what I do."
There was a question on the site from someone asking if there were any "schools" or any places to become a "pro hacker." Do you have any suggestions as to where people could go or what you suggest for people who were interested in being an enthusiast?
"The mean streets of Washington D.C. on two dollars a day. Surviving on that - that's a hack."
What was your favorite city in terms of your travels?
"I don't think I have one particular favorite. I have strong affinities to DC, Philadelphia, San Francisco and probably Sacramento, as well as Pittsburgh."
You've been referred to as the "homeless hacker," or "helpful hacker." What started you on the road? Did you have to leave your home against your will - did your parents kick you out or was it something you chose to do?
"No, my parents have always been very good to me. They've always been there for me, no matter what, and they're really great people. When I was seventeen or so, they moved to Sacramento."
Did you like her? Was she a good mom?
"Yeah, she's a great mom. How many moms would stand on the doorstep of a home and tell the FBI "thou shalt not pass," essentially?"
She had said that she wished that you would do something something that everyone would see as positive. Is there any sort of discontent between your family and you when it comes to this field, or is it something you're moving past now?
"The family's in some hard financial straits right now. In many ways I think they don't see what I do as I see it, and certainly not be involved in that respect. They, I believe, view it (computing) more as a hobby and don't really understand, and it seemed to be much closer to being about religion for me."
A
Re:Interview text (Score:1)
Techfocus [techfocus.org]
Homeless script kiddie? (Score:3, Insightful)
He gets the press coverage because he's "homeless", but doesn't fit the alcoholic loser bum image of most homeless people. People like hearing such stories because it gives them hope that all the homeless (or more accurately, bums) might be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Total bullshit of course, but it makes for good copy.
overrated. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:overrated. (Score:1, Funny)
Re:overrated. (Score:2, Insightful)
or maybe the guy just rubs people the wrong way
Re:overrated. (Score:3, Funny)
Well, if that's not a good enough reason to lock him up, I don't know what is. Just for that they should tack on another 5 years.
Re:overrated. (Score:2)
Well, if that's not a good enough reason to lock him up, I don't know what is. Just for that they should tack on another 5 years.
Do _what_? Personally, I think they should take time off of his sentence for not knowing C++ or Java. That's a merit, not a flaw!
Re:overrated. (Score:5, Insightful)
Wether you like lamo or what he did is up to you, but I think it would be foolish to not understand that what he did was impressive.
Re:overrated. (Score:3, Insightful)
The fact that he wasn't trained and isn't skilled impresses me all that much more.
Are you also impressed when people are able to try a hundred differed different doors and find one that's open? He's not a genious, he's not overly impressive, it's just that security in big corps sucks. It almost has to when you have to let in hordes of people. There's tons of people that "aren't trained" that figure out how to do things. They aren't geniouses, they just don't require hand-holding.
The plain fact
Re:overrated. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:overrated. (Score:2)
There is a difference between being able to something and actually doing it (like, ever heard of the Egg of Columbus [wikipedia.org]?
Just because something is easy to do doesn't make it automatically unimpressive. Only one point where he differs of all the ones I could list: How much of all the script kiddies out there are helping to fix the holes they have found?
I don't mean to say
Bad Links (Score:1)
Poor guy (Score:2)
Also, hopefully, Roblimo's not going to line him up for one of his "Hey, everybody, let's laugh at the mental case!" interviews. Thankfully we haven't had one of those in quite a while.
Re:Poor guy (Score:2)
Why not just take him at his word? He doesn't see things like other people do. That's how he describes himself, and it seems like the most accurate characterization to me.
Re:Poor guy (Score:2)
I know this is supposed to be "a good thing", but Ted Kazinski didn't "see things like other people did", and neither does anyone who's schizophrenic.
He's no Unabomber, and he's not schizo, but not "seeing things like other people do" isn't something that should be considered a universal good. Let's face it, he gets press because he's homeless. Homeless people get sympathy value in the press, especially when big corps like the NYT are pitted against them. The
sentencing delayed (Score:1)
Well... sentencing has been delayed until June so I'm sure it was worthwhile waiting all this time to release the interview.
p
Exclusive interview? (Score:3, Informative)
Except for all the others...
http://www.securityfocus.com/news/6934
http://
http://news.com.com/2100-7348_3-5135351.ht
http://www.internetweek.com/story/showArticle.
http://www.wired.com/news/i
http://www.2600.com/offthehook/2003/0
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=
http://marketplace.publicr
Re:Exclusive interview? (Score:1)
awww, not Adriana Lima (Score:4, Funny)
Re:awww, not Adriana Lima (Score:2)
Re:awww, not Adriana Lima (Score:2)
But look at this picture: link [inkiboo.com] and tell me again she's not attractive? I think perhapse you got "teenage boy" and "incredibly hot supermodel" confused there...
Does anyone really.... (Score:2, Insightful)
Seriously, this guy is just craving attention. Homeless hacker my ass. Maybe if he actually tried to make something of his life or contribute to society I could give a shit. But he has done nothing for the real 'hacker' community.. stop giving hackers a bad name and refer to him as homeless 'criminal' please.
Re:Does anyone really.... (Score:2)
Maybe if he actually tried to make something of his life or contribute to society I could give a shit.
He is contributing to society, numbnuts. He's finding security holes and then telling the companies about them. He's helping people. Just because he's not getting paid for it doesn't make him some sort of bum. It makes him generous and caring. Sure, it was illegal to do it without permission, but he's not giving hackers a bad name. If anything, he's helping to improve the view ma
Good interview, but... (Score:1)
Re:Good interview, but... (Score:2)
Yet another form of schizophrenia....
Cracker vs Hacker (Score:1)
Doesn't help that the two opposing groups both lay claim to the same name.
Do You Refer To Your Self as a Geek? (Score:2)
English is a live language, words change meaning constantly. Instead of trying to go against the public's view of the definition of a word, use words that mean what the audience wi
Moral of the Adrian Lamo story (Score:5, Insightful)
No one really cares until:
1) The problem becomes extreme - instead of going 5 miles/hour over the speed limit you go 25 over.
2) You trumpet your illegalities all over the place.
If a sysadmin at the NY Times had received a discreet phone call from Lamo they would have had the option to ignore the whole situation and just quietly fix the problem. Instead they got a phone call from a reporter who was about to write a news piece on how this guy broke into their network.
I'm not saying that they were right, just that it's understandable and Lamo shot himself in the foot with his lack of discretion. I learned this same lesson in high school when I wrote a creative writing paper that was so bloody offensive that I had to have a conference with my parents, the principle, the teacher and the school psychologist. My teacher told me in private that he wouldn't have done anything but make me re-write the paper but since I showed it to a bunch of people (whose parents called in) he had no choice.
i love justice! (Score:2)
Re:i love justice! (Score:2, Funny)
I'm confused (Score:3, Interesting)
Neat trick given he was homeless.
Technically Disabled News Paper Company (Score:3, Insightful)
Had Lamo intended to act maliciously or engage without notice, he could have. So, the New York Times should be thankful that it was Lamo, walk-off the embarrassment, and throw this frivolous suit in the garbage can. The dollars allocated to the damage as a result of Lamo's activities are most likely "soft" costs. Specifically, the 300k associated to the LexisNexis activity, which is, most likely, an overvalued retail transaction price related to database queries, which fundamentally costs nothing. And, the 25k associated to the investigation efforts of the New York Times networking personnel, was really just a bad business decision. They could have just asked Lamo once he disclosed that he breached the network. I'm sure he would have provided the details. Additionally, those are, most likely, soft costs, as those resources used to perform the investigation were, most likely, New York Times network administration personnel doing what they do every day, well aside from reading Slashdot, and handling ID-10-T user errors.
The "real" cash that was wasted on all the blood-sucking lawyers to file suit against Lamo, should have been used to tighten up the security on that New York Times network. But, maybe it's not too late. Maybe, the charges can be dropped, prior to sentencing, and Lamo is good-natured enough to still help the New York Times out. Because the possibility of being on the receiving end of hacker community retaliation is certainly not a place I would ever want to be!
ER
Company Accountability (Score:2, Insightful)
Does it really matter? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Cheese! (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, there's a rather supernatural school of thought that says we'll never hear interviews from the "best hackers," because they'll never get caught. I don't believe in superhackers -- but you have to wonder, with these guys catching interview with Lamo right before his latch, if an ego is REALLY the best thing for any criminal to possess. I mean, you need respect and renown to make it in a world without structure, but it seems having the blackhats known your name makes it easier for it to fall in the laps of the whitehats.
Re:Cheese! (Score:2)
Re:Cheese! (Score:2)
Re:Hope they remove testicals so he can't reproduc (Score:3, Funny)