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Interview With Trolltech's CEO and CTO Eirik Eng

timothy posted more than 10 years ago | from the bringing-others-joy dept.

Linux Business 266

jlp2097 writes "There is a great and lengthy interview at the The Dot with Eirik Eng, CEO of Trolltech, and Matthias Ettrich, founder of the KDE project and CTO of Trolltech. They talk about the recent X(Free86) trouble, accessibility in QT, Trolltech's finances, Qtopia, the OS X Port and a GPL'd Windows QT - it's probably not going to happen. And, did you know that Qt is pronounced 'Cute' by its creators?"

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Hahahahaha! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8839819)

Poor bastards!

Re:Hahahahaha! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8840348)

Indeed!

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Eirik Eng (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8839832)

What kind of name is that? Who the fuck would name a kid Eirik? Would you like to buy some more vowels , Pat?

Re:Eirik Eng (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8839943)

At least his last name isn't spelled "Ng" which I maintain is not a valid surname. "Ng" contains no vowels. Therefore it is not even a syllable, much less a name.

Re:Eirik Eng (-1, Offtopic)

DavidTC (10147) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840047)

Remember, folks, if it has no vowels, you get to use random ones. Pronounce it randomly Neg, Nug, Nog, Nig, and Nag. If that gets boring, move on to long vowel sounds, like Noog and Neag.

The other option is the always fun glottal stop. N'g.

I'm sorry, and I'm sure Ng has a vowel sound, but I don't see why I have to put up with such a crappy transliteration of the sound into English. Syllables have vowel sounds, period, and English has no assumed vowel sounds, this isn't Hebrew or Japanese or a language where consonants have magic invisible vowels.

People with the last name 'Ng' need to find out who first translated it that way and beat the crap out of them, then start spelling it with a vowel somewhere.

The only 'word' I know of in scabble without a vowel sound is 'nth', and that's not properly a word at all, just like '3rd' isn't a word. The word for the expression is some hypothetical 'inth', just like 'third' is the word.

TROLLTECH (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8839839)

Nothing but a bunch of wannabes.
-- GNAA

Needs to be said... (-1, Troll)

Gothmolly (148874) | more than 10 years ago | (#8839842)

Let the KDE/GNOME trolls commence!

Question for Eirik Eng (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8839844)

Eirik:

How do you feel that the license infighting regarding the GPL and QPL has effected open source's inroads into the corporation? Have you received many inquiries regarding a fully unencumbered GPL application across all platforms that integrates Qt?

I thank you for your participation.

Sincerely,
Seth Finklestein
Interlocutor

Re:Question for Eirik Eng (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8840030)

Seth Finklestein

Sounds jewish ... are you a jew ?

Re:Question for Eirik Eng (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8840345)

no

Re:Question for Eirik Eng (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8840389)

mod up pls
id like to see eirik answer this pls

Cute (1, Interesting)

Feztaa (633745) | more than 10 years ago | (#8839849)

well, I've always pronounced it 'Cutie'.

Re:Cute (2, Informative)

Andrewkov (140579) | more than 10 years ago | (#8839913)

I think your correct, Cutie is correct. I think the editor made a typo.

Re:Cute (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8839916)

yeah, well I have always prounced the CX domain SEX so I am wary of your sig.

Re:Cute (4, Funny)

Erratio (570164) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840081)

I like to pronounce FAQ as Fa-Q

If QT can be called 'Cutie' (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8839946)

then GTK should be called 'Gnooteekay'.

Re:Cute (1)

DR SoB (749180) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840061)

That's wierd, I've always pronounced it Q-T!

Re:Cute (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8840139)

Q T Phone home

Re:Cute (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8840426)

I just could never call it "Cute" without feeling really stupid, so I just call it Q-T.

I also say S-Q-L rather than "Sequel", letters are fun! Just look at our government.

safe subject line (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8839856)

The "The Dot" link is broken.

Bad HTML (3, Informative)

Andrewkov (140579) | more than 10 years ago | (#8839862)

The second link is bad ... Looks like the author forgot the http:// or something.

Re:Bad HTML (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8839896)

standard for slashdot ... no?

Re:Bad HTML (3, Informative)

tcopeland (32225) | more than 10 years ago | (#8839915)

Here ya go [kde.org] .

Sorry about that (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8839926)

Despite the fact that I am an editor for a technology-oriented website, I do not understand the complexities of "HTML."

--
Timothy [monkey.org]

Re:Sorry about that (-1, Offtopic)

Andrewkov (140579) | more than 10 years ago | (#8839947)

Haha, thanks, that was the funniest post I've seen in a while! :-)

Visual Tool (-1, Flamebait)

superpulpsicle (533373) | more than 10 years ago | (#8839875)

You look at windows and Visual Basic and Visual C, those are all anyone would ever need in windows land.

The problem within the linux community altogether. There isn't an undisputed GUI tool. QT is good, but there are too many alternatives that are equally shoulder to shoulder with it.

Re:Visual Tool (3, Insightful)

DarkSarin (651985) | more than 10 years ago | (#8839911)

First, mod check--Hello? Funny? I don't really believe it--maybe I'll get to meta-mod it!

Second, I think of this as a strength--if your personal tastes don't lie within QT, you can still use something else. If you don't like VB or VC, then you are stuck with one or two alternatives in Winland.

Re:Visual Tool (1)

arkanes (521690) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840397)

Not sure what you mean, there - there's lots of toolkits that run on Windows (including, of course, the superb wxWidgets), and almost all of them have script language bindings if you don't like C/C++, and almost all of those scripting languages run on Windows. It's true that _most_ windows apps are writting with Visual Studio or VB, but not all. And it certainly doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of other options.

Re:Visual Tool (5, Insightful)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 10 years ago | (#8839978)

While I agree with what you're saying, I do have to say that companies like Sun have a point. They simply can't embrace a toolkit like QT without forcing their customers into unexpected costs. QT is far superior to GTK (although Sun is helping GTK catch up), but the Unix companies already did this once with Motif. They're unlikely to do it again.

That being said, TrollTech should continue to serve their customers and develop a great product. Those who are willing to absorb the costs of QT will find themselves with a great product.

Re:Visual Tool (3, Insightful)

The_Mystic_For_Real (766020) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840023)

There seems to be no undisputed linux anything. This can be a good thing because it encourages competition and allows people to go in different directions, but it also has the detrimental effect of not having any project be the best it could be because it doesn't have the entire community working on it.

Bets on... (-1, Offtopic)

brocheck (59415) | more than 10 years ago | (#8839886)

On how fast YAFSFD (yet another FSF drone) whines about the QPL.

I say within 2 minutes.

"Cute" (4, Funny)

harlows_monkeys (106428) | more than 10 years ago | (#8839901)

At work, we went through a phase once of calling people who were doing X "X-boy". E.g., I was doing some email stuff, so people called me "email-boy". Well, one programmer was learning Qt, and as he left one evening, someone called out "Goodnight, cutie-boy!". Man, was his face red when he realized what that sounded like. :-)

Re:"Cute" (-1)

SlashdotMakesMeKool (610077) | more than 10 years ago | (#8839968)

Why, was he a homophobe?

Re:"Cute" (0, Troll)

finkployd (12902) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840026)

Why, was he a homophobe?

Because only a homophobe would ever be embarassed for accidently calling someone cute when they didn't intend to.

Troll

Finkployd

Re:"Cute" (2, Funny)

douthat (568842) | more than 10 years ago | (#8839986)

What's even more embarassing is being called "X-boy" for doing X at work! http://www.dancesafe.org/slideshow/

Re:"Cute" (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8840249)

Is this why I'm known as 'furiously masterbating in the bathroom all day-boy' at work?

Re:"Cute" (4, Funny)

benasselstine (764316) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840432)

I think it's pronouced "Kute".

GTK+ (5, Funny)

3Suns (250606) | more than 10 years ago | (#8839908)

And, did you know that Qt is pronounced 'Cute' by its creators?


I also heard that GTK is pronounced "Gittuk" by the gnome hackers...

Re:GTK+ (1, Funny)

richard_za (236823) | more than 10 years ago | (#8839937)

"Gittuk" sounds Klingnon.

Instead, they should call it (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8840003)

'Gnooteekay'. It sounds somewhat sillier.

Re:GTK+ (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8840393)

GTK: Vice City!

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cute? (4, Funny)

taj (32429) | more than 10 years ago | (#8839910)


Another project where the creators don't event know how to pronounce the name of the project? I run into this all the time.

Re:cute? (1)

Neil Blender (555885) | more than 10 years ago | (#8839955)

Another project where the creators don't event know how to pronounce the name of the project? I run into this all the time.

Shouldn't you be hacking your line-ux box or something?

Re:cute? (1)

ajs318 (655362) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840382)

And would that distribution be Debbian or Deebian?

Re:cute? (4, Interesting)

m0rphin3 (461197) | more than 10 years ago | (#8839981)

Another project where the creators don't event know how to pronounce the name of the project? I run into this all the time.


Did you ever consider that the project creators are not from English-speaking countries? Hence, their pronounciation is correct as far as they are concerned.

Qt in Norwegian would sound something like 'ku-teh', or 'cute' to untrained (e.g. non-Norwegian) ears.

Re:cute? (1)

urmensch (314385) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840027)

Did you ever consider that this was a joke?

Re:cute? (2, Interesting)

deadlinegrunt (520160) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840283)

I have not RTFA, this is /. afterall...

Qt became that after the original programmer liked the way Q was rendered under X in emacs. The 't' was for tookit. The 'Q' was because it looked "cute".

I realize (I think?) that the parent of this post was a joke.

Re:cute? (1)

Quill_28 (553921) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840343)

How is this interesting?

Either this is someone who fails to see the humor in the initial post(which is quite funny i might add), or
morphin3's post is a joke that's not very funny.

So only Trolls... (-1, Offtopic)

Pranjal (624521) | more than 10 years ago | (#8839938)

...allowed to post in this thread? Yeah mod me down, I'm a troll!

This sounds familiar (5, Funny)

PetoskeyGuy (648788) | more than 10 years ago | (#8839962)

Hello this is TrollTech, and we pronounce QT as "Cute"

a la Linux [sladen.org]

Canopy/SCO Connection (2, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8839964)

Someone's going to mention it, so ...

PF: Somebody mentioned that the Canopy Group & SCO owns some parts of Trolltech.
ME: Sorry, we don't have any influence on them.
PF: Do they have any influence on you?
ME: Not really. They have a 5.7% stake in Trolltech


This is completely believable -- Trolltech doesn't really fit into Canopy's current legal strategy, and there's unlikely that there's any "influence" going on there.

However, you can be sure that Canopy has access to Trolltech's customer lists -- If you have purchased Qt with the intent of doing (say) a large internal Linux deployment, don't be surprised when SCO comes knocking and asking for fees.

Canopy Representatives Sit on Trolltech Board. (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8840029)

Nice try : a failed pre-emptive strike, though.

More specific questions remain :

The real questions are

1) What is Ralph J. Yarro of Canopy infamy doing on the Trolltech board of directors? Sorry, sitting on the board means "influence".

2) What is financial relationship between SCO/Canopy and Trolltech? Specificly: does Trolltech owe money to SCO/Canopy, does Canopy have contractual rights to seats on the board? Does SCO/Canopy have warrants or other agreements to take control of Trolltech later?

Sadly, a QT standard on Linux DOES fit into Canopy's strategy for market share. Especially if they can invoke ownership or control of Trolltech on a later date.

Re:Canopy Representatives Sit on Trolltech Board. (1)

Frekko (749706) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840096)

The trolltech people would rather roll over and die than letting Qt fall into the hands of SCO. If there is a hostile takeover you bet they are going to release a BSD version. In fact this is what the free qt foundation is about. http://www.kde.org/whatiskde/kdefreeqtfoundation.p hp

Re:Canopy Representatives Sit on Trolltech Board. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8840425)

Free Qt Foundation which will consist of two members of Troll Tech AS as well as two members of the KDE project

This basically means that TrollTech can block any move made by the "Free Qt Foundation" by denying a majority.

Furthermore, the charter only requires that they issue a "Free Edition", there's no requirement that it's necessarily under the GPL (as opposed to QPL, Academic license, etc).

So, there's no guarantee that a takeover (hostile or otherwise) would result in a BSD version of Qt.

MOD UP !!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8840128)

These are legit. questions. Not flamebait.

Trolltech should explain in specifics, not hand wave on generalities.

Re:Canopy/SCO Connection (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8840329)

To the person who thought this was trolling -- SCO is currently going after Los Alamos National Lab -- who uses a large Linux cluster built by "Linux Networx", which is another Canopy company.

Closed Source Licensing of QT (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8839966)

Unfortunately, QT will never gain widespread Linux desktop support unless TrollTech changes it's predatory licensing scheme. Whether you agree with the GPL or not, it remains an invetitbility. TrollTechs failure to capitulate will only marginalize QT (and KDE) even futher. The QT logo also resembles a hammer and sickle. This is fine for people from countries such as France/China/Cuba, but is frowned upon by American industry as they don't want to be associated with the failed ideology of communism.

The reason why companies such as Sun, RH, and Novell are adopting GNOME is because of QTs licensing, even though KDE is perhaps the more mature desktop.

Re:Closed Source Licensing of QT (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8840071)

Sun went off working on their GLASS Desktop environment which is not GTK+ or GNOME based and Novell as announced by them decided to work joint venture with IBM and SuSE to do all their stuff using QT/KDE.

So why the fuck don't you go out and make better research before you pull your religions shit up here that everyone can wipe his ass with ?

And why the fuck will Novell or Sun adopt a broken Desktop ? It takes plenty of years for GNOME developers fixing the crap out of their framework until they can continue working on normal GNOME solutions.

Re:Closed Source Licensing of QT (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8840253)

Yeah right. Linux also won't get a widespread adoption because it uses same predatory licence...

BTW, licence didn't stop Opera from using QT on Linux. I haven't heard about any popular commercial GTK-software...

Re:Closed Source Licensing of QT (2, Informative)

happyfrogcow (708359) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840430)

No widespread use in Linux? Last I checked, KDE uses QT [kde.org] . How many Linux distributions distribute KDE? Probably all the major ones.

What real reasons are there for QT to change it's licensing for the Windows platform? The interview clearly states why they won't. Your logic makes no sense to me. Someone who embraces the predatory licensing of MS-Windows will be afraid of the licensing of non-Free QT? I doubt it. If someone doesn't like non-Free QT license, but will tolerate MS licensing, then they have some weird conflicting views.

Your insight about the QT logo is a bit off the wall, if you ask me. read into it what you want, though.

cute huh? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8839971)

well what is the deal with the name trolltech?

Definitely needs a non-commercial Windows license (4, Insightful)

BestNicksRTaken (582194) | more than 10 years ago | (#8839987)

wxWidgets has a huge following because it is truly cross-platform, with the same [free] licensing.

I would be using Qt/PyQt if it had a non-commercial (or preferably GPL) Windows license, but for now I'm stuck with wxPython - which really isn't as nice as Qt, although sometimes looks better due to native LnF.

I don't see the point of having GPL Linux *and Mac* versions without Windows, just because of the lame excuse "well Windows isn't GPL", it really bugs me, I don't want to write free software that won't work on Windows (and I'm far from a M$ advocate).

MacOSX isn't OSS, it's proprietary Apple stuff that they hacked on top of an OSS OS, so come up with another excuse TT....

And before anyone mentions the non-commercial Qt with the book - that is a very limited version (personal use, non-ditributable), doesn't work with PyQt, and is out-of-date already.

Argh, rant over!

Re:Definitely needs a non-commercial Windows licen (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8840042)

"MacOSX isn't OSS, it's proprietary Apple stuff that they hacked on top of an OSS OS"

Wow, did you actually write that stupid sentence?

Re:Definitely needs a non-commercial Windows licen (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8840169)

It has to be said, but wxWidgets (formerly wxWindows) can turn into a total mess sometimes, due to its dependancy on the local OSs widgets. ie: You'll find its feature set is usually a lowest common denominator due to limits of one or more ports, and things often will work differently base don the port. Certainly, many ports are not useful, though the wxWidgets peopel valiently claim they are. (I really like the wxWidgets people, and theyr'e doing great work, but they really should stop claiming the thing is stable on anything other than Unix/GTK; The windows one isn't bad until you get into the serious parts, like localization. The Mac one is entirely broken.)

Groknards.

Re:Definitely needs a non-commercial Windows licen (3, Interesting)

XbainX (464073) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840174)

I hear that... I'm just now starting to work on a project I'm coding in Python. I'd love to use PyQT, but one of my reasons for using Python is the portability. Why the hell would I choose a a cross-platform windowing API that is free (for non-commercial) for all but the OS family with the largest market share?

Yes, yes, it's their code and they can choose to do whatever they want with it. Well, I'll choose to use wxWindows instead...

It just kills me that they justify their GPL'd releases for Linux and MacOS X by helping the Free software community and yet it appears to be a completely alien idea to them (according to the interview) that just maybe there are some GPL developers out there that want to release software that runs on MS Windows.

Re:Definitely needs a non-commercial Windows licen (5, Informative)

Soul-Burn666 (574119) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840193)

" just because of the lame excuse "well Windows isn't GPL""

That's _NOT_ the reason they give. The reason they gave is that too many commercial companies used the GPL version of the library in their commercial software instead of using the pricy commercial version of the library, and they said it's impossible to go and sue all of them.

Re:Definitely needs a non-commercial Windows licen (1)

XbainX (464073) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840466)

So does that mean if a large number of commercial applications are made for Linux they'll stop releasing a GPL'd version for that platform for fear of developers violating the license agreement?

From the article, discussing the MS Windows licensing decision, "Another point is the fact that Windows is a closed source Operating System. There is no community for Free Software development under Windows. The situation is very different from Linux, as you know. On Windows development usually happens as shareware or commercial software and we don't see that community evolving into producing Free Software."

Can you point me to a document where Trolltech states that they don't have a Free MS Windows version due to an umanageable amount of license policing?

Re:Definitely needs a non-commercial Windows licen (1)

beforewisdom (729725) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840216)

Or.......to paraphrase:

< Ronald Regan Cold War Era Voice >
Mr. Eng,....tear...down.. this... wall!
< /Ronald Regan Cold War Era Voice >

Re:Definitely needs a non-commercial Windows licen (2, Informative)

OglinTatas (710589) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840220)

Qt has a non-commercial windows license. It is basically the GPL with the added restriction that you cannot use it at your place of employment. That sounds reasonable. Hack stuff together as a hobby if you want, but if you need Qt at work, your employer should buy a license for it.
I got a copy of Qt with the book "C++ Programming with Qt3" [slashdot.org]
It looks pretty slick. I won't use it at work but everything else is fair game.

Re:Definitely needs a non-commercial Windows licen (1)

kallisti (20737) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840436)

The non-commercial version also puts a big "[Non-commercial]" in the title of every window. What's worse, you have to use Borland (on the book CD) or Microsoft's C compiler, either meaning I need to pay for VC.net or use a compiler which doesn't handle C++ templates correctly and breaks STL/Boost/Loki-type stuff. For just goofing around, it is ok, but it looks like I'll have to move to Linux to get anything decent written.

The non-commercial license is very different from the GPL.

OS X/Darwin (2, Insightful)

simpl3x (238301) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840236)

Isn't the idea of Qt to avaid the proprietary aspects of OS X, which would be the interface. If it runs similarly on the "free" version, isn't it free from the proprietary aspects? Similar to the comments on Java earlier today, if the code is tied to non-free parts of the OS, then the tools cannot be free, and the potential forr costs being incured by TrollTech are a possibility.

Re:Definitely needs a non-commercial Windows licen (1)

FuzzyFurB (148573) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840330)

Aqua isn't open source software, but Apple does contribute back to the free software world with it's patches to khtml and kjs through it's collobration with the KDE project for the development of their safari web browser. that's more than microsoft can claim.

Linux (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8839992)

As one of the primary graphic toolsets for Linux, and the choice of many distributions, QT being commercial/GPL is a hinderance to commercial software for Linux. It provides a "toll booth" by forcing all non-free applications to pay a fee to distribute these applications. This forces non-free developers to charge more to pay for these fees, as well as stopping closed-source "freeware." Since KDE is used so widely and known to many as the linux desktop, it makes sense to have a LGPL QT implementation. The GPL should keep applications free, but drastically hinders adoptation as a standard for use in all applications.

Chicken and egg . . . (4, Informative)

AshtangiMan (684031) | more than 10 years ago | (#8839999)

As some people mentioned on the dot, it has partly to do with finances, sales and Trolltech's business model. Another point is the fact that Windows is a closed source Operating System. There is no community for Free Software development under Windows. The situation is very different from Linux, as you know. On Windows development usually happens as shareware or commercial software and we don't see that community evolving into producing Free Software.
This is a bit backwards. Right now if you use Visual Studio (and any windows library) you are suposudly prevented by the EULA from creating GPL'd code. So, in the windows world, if there were a good alternative that allowed for GPL code creation/distribution I think it would be used.

Re:Chicken and egg . . . (5, Informative)

negacao (522115) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840074)

Perhaps we should correct this blatant, failed attempt at trolling.

The code you write is YOURS. The EULA of the compiler and provided libraries doesn't even TRY to control your licensing scheme.

In fact, the GPL isn't even mentioned in the EULA for MS Visual Studio 6.

The only thing you're prevented from doing is giving away the provided libraries, header files, or source code that come with the compiler and tools.

Don't get me wrong, MSFT sucks big floppy donkey dick, but FUD in either direction helps none of us.

Re:Chicken and egg . . . (1)

IntlHarvester (11985) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840187)

Here's what I think he's talking about (from the VisualStudio.NET EULA [clendons.co.nz] ):


(b) If you use the Redistributables, or the "Sample Code" or "Redistributable Code" portions of the SDK Software (as described in Section 4.2(b) (all of the foregoing referred to in this paragraph as the "Licensed Software"), then in addition to your compliance with the applicable distribution requirements described for the Licensed Software, the following also applies. Your license rights to the Licensed Software are conditioned upon your (i) not incorporating Identified Software into or combining Identified Software with the Licensed Software or a derivative work thereof; (ii) not distributing Identified Software in conjunction with the Licensed Software or a derivative work thereof; and (iii) not using Identified Software in the development of a derivative work of the Licensed Software. "Identified Software" means software which is licensed pursuant to terms that directly or indirectly (A) create, or purport to create, obligations for Microsoft with respect to the Licensed Software or derivative work thereof or (B) grant, or purport to grant, to any third party any rights or immunities under Microsoft's intellectual property or proprietary rights in the Licensed Software or derivative work thereof.

Identified Software includes, without limitation, any software that requires as a condition of use, modification and/or distribution of such software that other software incorporated into, derived from or distributed with such software be (1) disclosed or distributed in source code form; (2) be licensed for the purpose of making derivative works; or (3) be redistributable at no charge.


This seems to be a pre-emptive strike against Stallman's unconventional view of "derived works" -- that GPL obligations can extend across library boundries.

I don't think this is a real problem for GPL developers however -- either the GPL does not impose these requirements on Microsoft libraries (due to "fair use" and the right to run software under copyright law), or it's also illegal to distribute these programs under the GPL.

Re:Chicken and egg . . . (3, Informative)

cjellibebi (645568) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840119)

>Right now if you use Visual Studio (and any windows library) you are suposudly prevented by the EULA from creating GPL'd code. So, in the windows world, if there were a good alternative that allowed for GPL code creation/distribution I think it would be used.

GCC has been ported to Windows. If you just want a minimalistic setup, try MinGW (Minimalist GNU For Windows) [mingw.org] . This just installs things like GCC and 'make' and a few GCC-related tools. If you want GCC with an entire unix-like environment running under Windows where you can do builds that rely a lot on unix-tools, and build programs that assume a unix-environment, I suggest you install Cygwin [cygwin.com] .

As for the Windows libraries, I'm not sure if the EULA that applies to Visual studio that prevents you from writing GPL'd code also applies to using the Windows librasries with GCC-based compilers as well.

Re:Chicken and egg . . . (1)

Trepalium (109107) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840166)

or DevC++ [bloodshed.net] if you need an IDE like VS.

All of my questions have been answer and my (4, Informative)

pair-a-noyd (594371) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840006)

worries lain to rest.


PF: Somebody mentioned that the Canopy Group & SCO owns some parts of Trolltech.

ME: Sorry, we don't have any influence on them.

PF: Do they have any influence on you?

ME: Not really. They have a 5.7% stake in Trolltech. Historically Canopy became an investor because we cooperated with Caldera. As you might know we made and delivered the graphic install, which was the first graphical install for Linux, for Caldera Linux. The Canopy Group as the main investor in Caldera was so impressed by the work we had done that they wanted to invest in Trolltech, to make sure that Trolltech could become a solid company that could continue to deliver software to the Linux community. It's pretty ironic to see what has happened historically after that of course. But they don't have any influence on Trolltech. Trolltech is employee-owned, 65% of the shares are owned by the employees and we control the business so they have a small stake in us and that is it.

PF: You haven't talk about this complicated with SCO on Linux

EE: The patent issue or the corporate issue?

PF: The thing that SCO is asking and preparing to sue everybody about some code they pretend they own in Linux.

EE: I can tell you that we do not support these actions from SCO. Trolltech in many ways is dependent on the success of Linux. We think Linux is a Good Thing. We support Linux in many ways. On the other hand everybody has the right to bring his case to court. In this case it is very strange that they have not pinpointed exactly where in the code there is a problem and we feel that if they really had a problem with this, they could have acted very differently in presenting this to the community. So again we do not support these actions.

PF: You have any position on software patents? Especially since in the EU there is going to be a law to be passed soon.

EE: Trolltech is against software patenting. We think it is a bad thing and we see with horror what is happening to the US software market because of the patent policy over there. From my limited understanding of the subject, US patent law isn't that bad, it's the actual application of that law by the US patent office which is the problem. We sincerely hope that we will not get a parallel situation in Europe and we think that would be a catastrophe to the software industry in Europe. We think that we are well protected by copyright laws and other laws. we think that software is a very different product from other types of commercial production products. And we think that it is very important for innovation that people can continue to share ideas and that companies are not allowed to patent things which are very obvious.


I feel much relieved now...

Not Really? (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8840114)

I feel Trolltech dodged the issue. Again.

Having SCO/Canopy representatives on the Board of Directors means the don't have influence on Trolltech? Why didn't he mention this in his answer? What is he trying to hide? I think we need a better explanation.

Again, Trolltech has blown another opportunity to spell out exactly what their realtionship to SCO/Canopy. Warrants? Debt? Contractual obligations? Spell it out! "Not Really" is NOT GOOD ENOUGH !!!

I don't feel releived. I'm still quite unsettled by their dodging the issue.

hey, jackass (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8840357)

Canopy is not on the Trolltech board of directors and you know it. All they have is a 5.7% investment in Trolltech.

Now sod off with your GNOME fud.

Accessibility in KDE (4, Insightful)

frodo from middle ea (602941) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840064)

I find the accessibility features of KDE far more superior and useful. e.g. the KmouseTool which enables auto clicking.

If I am not wrong you need to buy seperate s/w for that kind of thing in windows . ( windows users correct me if I am wrong).

Besides adding accessibility features makes KDE very much a candidate for use in Govt. work and any other place where accessibility features are a must.

Re:Accessibility in KDE (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8840368)

The version of Windows I bought in the UK has a similar feature to the KmouseTool. I don't know about the Middle Eastern version but I assume it's the same.

GNOME: Views and thoughts from an apps developer (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8840093)

That's quite an facile editorial but you can't expect better from normal users. My screenshot looks better than yours. Evolution is better than KMail, GNOME looks more polished than KDE and so on. I do use XChat, Abiword, Rhythmbox.... ...usually you get stuff like these from normal users. And this is ok since you can't blame them for stuff they simply don't know about or don't have a slighest knowledge about.

Such editorials are hard to take serious since they are build up on basicly NO deeper knowledge of the matter. Most people I met so far are full of prejudices and seek for excuses or explaination why they prefer the one over the other while in reality they have no slightest clue on what parameters they compare the things.

If people do like the gance ICONS over the functionality then it's quite ok but that's absolutely NO framework to do such comparisons.

I do come from the GNOME architecture and spent the last 5 years on it. I also spent a lot of time (nearly 1 year now if I sum everything up) on KDE 3.x architecture including the latest KDE 3.2 (please note I still do use GNOME and I am up to CVS 2.6 release myself).

Although calling myself a GNOME vetaran I am also not shy to criticise GNOME and I do this in the public as well. Ok I got told from a couple of people if I don't like GNOME that I simply should switch and so on. But these are usually people who have a tunnelview and do not want to see or understand the problems around GNOME.

Speaking as a developer with nearly 23years of programming skills on my back I can tell you that GNOME may look polished on the first view but on the second view it isn't.

Technically GNOME is quite a messy architecture with a lot of unfinished, half polished and half working stuff inside. Given here are examples like broken gnome-vfs, half implementations of things (GStreamer still half implemented into GNOME (if you can call it an implementation at all)) rapid changes of things that make it hard for developers to catch up and a never ending bughunting. While it is questionable if some stuff can simply be fixed with patches while it's more required to publicly talk about the Framework itself.

Sure GNOME will become better but the time developers spent fixing all the stuff is the time that speaks for KDE to really improve it with needed features. We here on GNOME are only walking in the circle but don't have a real progress in true usability (not that farce people talk to one person and then to the next). Real usability here is using the features provided by the architecture that is when I as scientists want to do UML stuff that I seriously find an application written for that framework that can do it. When I eye over to the KDE architecture then as strange it sounds I do find more of these needed tools than I can find on GNOME. This can be continued in many areas where I find more scientific Software to do my work and Software that works reliable and not crash or misbehave or behave unexpected.

Comparing Nautilus with Konqueror is pure nonsense, comparing GNOME with KDE is even bigger nonsense. If we get a team of developers on a Table and discuss all the crap we find between KDE and GNOME then I can tell from own experience that the answer is clearly that GNOME will fail horrible here.

We still have many issues on GNOME which are Framework related. We now got the new Fileselector but yet they still act differently in each app. Some still have the old Fileselector, some the new Fileselector, some appearance of new Fileselectors are differently than in other apps that use the new Fileselector code and so on. When people talk about polish and consistency, then I like to ask what kind of consistency and polish is this ? We still have a couple of different ways to open Window in GNOME.

- GTK-Application-Window,
- BonoboUI Window,
- GnomeUI Window,

Then a lot of stuff inside GNOME are hardcoded UI's, some are using *.glade files (not to mention that GLADE the interface builder is still not aware of the new Widgets in GTK and even not aware of the deprecated ones), then we have *.xml files for BonoboUI windows etc. As you can see it's a pain to maintain all this junk. These are just a little spot on the entire Mountain. I can countless bring up more stuff. Sure these things are being worked on. No doubt but as I said they WORK on it this means that there is NO real progress for the future since people write new apps for GNOME and probably use old API and then they need to change huge parts of their code only to adopt the new API rather than working on the application itself to bring it forward with better features the user needs.

Why do I say these things in public and still use GNOME. Well when I started, I was developing stuff using the Motif widgetset and during that time around 1999 KDE and GNOME were looking quite similar from features and stuff. So I decided to work on and for GNOME although I am not quite happy with many so called 'solutions' inside GNOME and I think that we need to discuss them (on whatever place it is) to make people who like to contribute to GNOME know where the problems are and how we can solve them (if possible).

From my person experience KDE is far far superior of the inferior GNOME when it comes to technical aspects. Even if there are a few Menu entries to much or the Toolbar is overblown in Konqueror these are all cosmetical things that can be changed if needed (and if the developers think it's a good thing) but looking at the amount of KDE users and applications that got stomped out of nothing I do believe that there are a lot of people simply happy how KDE is as it is now.

If they change the Fileselector in KDE then it's inherited by other applications. So the author doesn't need to change huge leaps of code since they simply inherit it. If someone changes the Addressbook object then it's being inherit in other applications, same for Clock, Bookmarks etc. The Fileselector looks similar in all apps, the Toolbars and Menu look similar in all apps etc. They have quite nifty features that I am missing in GNOME. Even nowadays I ask myself if the developers working on GNOME are still on track of what the user really wants or if they are not caught in a tunnelview here by doing something no-one can really use.

When I hear people talking about all these cool usability studies SUN made then I need to smile here since this thing is laying back a few years now. And SUN already started working on their GLASS Desktop based on JAVA (no it's not GNOME based). The reason why SUN still works on GNOME is as far as I was told is that they had a 5 years contract with GNOME to do so. Anyways you can't depend on old usability tests. To warranty true usability these tests needs to be re-done every now and then so you can guarantee some sort of quality assurance that the stuff is still on track and truly usable for people.

Usable not as in which button to press, usable as in 'can I find the apps I need to do my business work'. or 'can I copy files and subdirs from FTP and have the stuff arrive correctly on my Desktop' (gnome-vfs still horrbly fails here).

Well I think people should really do an article based on these things since they are elementary for a Desktop. Neverthless I do believe that both sides KDE and GNOME do work hard on their Desktop but truly I believe that KDE makes better steps forward and imo in the right direction too. Even alternative stuff such as MorphOS or XFCE are far more useroriented and friendlier to use than what GNOME offers today.

> Perhaps GNOME is a bloody mess inside and KDE is a
> masterpiece, but does that really matter to the user?

Yes it does matter. We today place the stones for the road tomorrow. And we should decide wisely which stones we lay on that road. Should be go for an inferior Desktop which stagnates because developers are messing around in the Framework or should we go for a technical supperior Desktop ? Yes USERS do care a lot and it matters a lot of them as well. Since these users want to use polished applications, applications that are tightly integrated, that share one database for their Addressbooks, one database for their Bookmarks, they simply want to put all their Addresses in one database and be sure they can use these things in their Word like application (serial letters) in their Cellphone syncing app, in their Palm or PowerPC syncing app, in their Email client and so on. It matters a lot for the user if he can reliable use a FTP client or Filemanager to copy a bunch of files from A to B without worrying whether the stuff appeared correctly or not. And yes it matters a lot for the user whether he can be sure that new applications can rapidely be developed (even by himself) in a short time due to taking objects. And yes it also matters for us all whether a nice Desktop is being used which works reliable in all areas and guarantees new applications since we wanted to demonstrate outside world (non Linux people) how far Linux and the Desktop really are. How can we demonstrate the world outside that KDE is in many areas even far supperior over WindowsXP (in Desktop functionality) if we show people how nice icons GNOME has and as soon they start using it figure out that it's a mess ?

And yes, there is nothing wrong for KDE being similar to Windows. I want Windows for Linux. At least it offers me a cool Desktop with similar functionality and cool stuff. Hell I don't even come from Windows I used to be an AmigaOS person before that.

Better a Windows look and behave like rather than a Desktop that fit's nowhere where people and industry needs to spend hours and probably millions of Dollars into teaching their people how to do simpliest things. Now tell your customers who pay for your service how to use gconftool-2 for example. They will chop your testi**es off and put them in a glass with alcoholics.

> the difference is that Gconfig it is aimed for advanced
> users and Kpanel for general use.

And here is the problem. GNOME these days aims for the unexperienced users. Quite a contradictorily to the aims of GNOME don't you think. Most important settings are simply hidden behind GConf (and not Gconfig better you get off and learn some basics before teaching knowledged people what the differences are).

> I don't want I windows on Linux, the reason I use Linux is
> to get off MS, and what about Mac users who don't like
> Windows and want something else?.

Honestly, KDE is closer to both of them than GNOME. KDE offers the MacOSX way of Menu system (Top Menu), KDE has a cool Liquid Theme, KDE can look quite close to anything you like. It can even look like MorphOS.

But back to a normal conversation. You should look back in the mid 80's and compare the things today. Most Desktop solutions are all the same.

- Window
- Window can be moved,
- Icon on Desktop,
- Icon on Desktop can be moved,
- Filemanager,
- Filemanager can do things,
- Panel, Toolbar, Top Menu

So saying that Mac Users won't like KDE is plain stupid, the same stupid way saying Windows users don't like KDE etc. There can also be people who do like GNOME, there is no problem. But we should clearly look for the superior Desktop solution and it should be even clear to you that KDE is technically FAR superior. It's so much superior that comparing KDE and GNOME is plain wrong. It's like comparing a Ferrari with an Austin Mini.

> I do feel that Gnome is more likely to be successful on
> the corporate workstation than KDE

I don't believe so. Even corporate people have eyes in their head and a brain they can use. When they spent some time into Linux and know more about the technical stuff and probably the two desktops they then will decide wisely. I recently had a conversation with someone who wanted to change his entire company (1200 Desktops) to GNOME but then they decided to use KDE after they figured out how messy GNOME really is.

> because there are less option to fiddle around with and it
> seems simplier to get things done

What things do you think they get done that simple ? I would know a couple of examples of the things you can do simplier on GNOME than e.g. KDE ? But ok be it like that, this still doesn't change the broken Framework issue which is basicly the all and everything for a Desktop. No matter how less options you have, no matter how clean you assume the desktop to be, no matter how polished or nice you find it yourself. It still won't change the broken junk inside it. As many people already explained (since they elaborated correctly) GNOME will take years (IF EVER) to reach quality of KDE.

Forget the ugly icons, forget the bazillion of Menu entries and forget all the tons of Options. These are all things you can change easily and quickly. Unfortunately you can't easily change the broken stuff in GNOME that quickly. I wish it would be possible but as sad and realistic it sounds, it won't happen.

> sure stock Gnome isn't as polished as KDE, but Ximian
> Gnome is. Gnome 2.6 looks like it might just Gnome that
> extra bit of polish that it needs as well.

Yeah but thre rest remains GNOME, the same incomplete and unfinished Framework. Ximian GNOME may be a name in the public, but new apps need to be developed as well and that's still the same problematic issue than using stock GNOME. You still deal with the problems I have described above.

We need a stable desktop, a desktop with good framework, nice applications and where we can be sure that rapid application development is possible. A Ximian GNOME won't change anything here.

> Computer users usually don't know much about computers, I
> can't imagine a customer trying to find and specific option
> here.

Excuse me, but why do these people want to use Linux then ? If they have no clue what they are doing they better head off using Windows. Every farmer can give help with Windows, every neighbour can and even every WalMart store can help these people in Windows related questions. Why do they want to bother with Linux then ?

New people unfamilar to computers make their first touch with Windows. They learn to use it, they using it fine and they strangely get their stuff done the way they like and Windows is overblown with configuration options.

Even my sister is far better in Microsoft Word than I ever was or ever will be (not to mention that I am not interested either). But you see that people as unexperienced they are are usually willing to learn and do it. They learn by mistakes and don't make them again the next time.

Every now and then my sister comes up to me and tells me that her printer doesn't work. Hell it's even easier for me as Administrator and even as long years of Linux user to fix her 1 second problem with the printer on Windows rather than on Linux. Windows is dead simple but yet full of configuration stuff. People not interested in config stuff won't fiddle with the things either.

Even cars, videorecorders, cellphones, pda's, dvd burners, mp3 players are getting more features and things. And when I see people talking about technical stuff they usually go for the things with many options because they think it's correct with their price.

Anyways you should clearly read my comments. All the options, icons and much menu entries you can IGNORE since these are things you can easily CHANGE. Changing all the stuff in KDE is far easier than fixing the broken Framework in GNOME.

> Yes people are willing to learn, but they are more worried
> aboyt getting their work done as fast as posible, less
> clicks, less options, just do what they need.

Ok and what WORK do these people get done with GNOME they can not get done with KDE ?

For my knowledge they can get the same work done with KDE as they would get done with GNOME. So far we hopefully agree.

Now let's get a look beyond the tunnel (having a tunnelview is kinda pointless here).

Say that person wants to get REAL work done. Say he or she want's to do some astrological stuff. Where will he get the software to get the work done ? GNOME doesn't offer such a software so he or she can't even start to work.

Say people come in #gnome every day complaining there is no CD burning application like K3b now how can they get their work done if the application is missing ?

Say people want to do presentation stuff like PowerPoint, where is the application on GNOME so these people can get the work done ?.

Say people want to do 3D stuff for their mechanical course, where do they get the application for GNOME ?

Say people want to do UML for their university course, where do they get that program for GNOME ? DIA ? Hell I am a practical example here that DIA is unusable to do a shite.

Now where is the software on GNOME to get exactly that work done ?. Looking over to KDE the software is existing already.

Ok I am not blaming GNOME for not having all this. NO. But I wanted to make you understand that a good Framework is required to guarantee rapid application development. Rapid application development means that the users do not need to wait 2 years until they get the work done, since they already have the software today to get the work done. And this software is in a way to be improved. They have no problems changing huge parts of their Code to fit the fixed Framework since the Framework on KDE is already in a very good condition. The developers concentrate on the fun stuff improving and echancing their applications rather than fixing stuff or get their app understanding the new changed API.

You know, a good Framework means that you can quickly develop programs. Programs that people can use to get serious work done.

I always wished GNOME would have such a great development Framework like KDE has but it sadly hasn't and this is what I like people to understand. There is no point blaming one desktop and favoriting another one just for the Icons of for the Themes (as this editorial shows) it matters more that we have a good framework for the future and guarantee that apps are being written in masses.

This is all I wanted to say, nothing more, nothing less. If you are not willing to understand this (or not able to understand either due to limited knowledge) then this is your problem not mine. I took quite a lot of time to explain these things to you. By now everyone else reading this should have understood the points.

Let me give you a view examples of what I think of being a broken framework:

a) When I implment new features but do it just half. Adding GStreamer to GNOME for example which is indeed a nice thing but adding it only to half of the apps and skipping the others is a bug.

b) Fixing half of the stuff in apps. Say you committ a patch that fixes 2 dialogs in Nautilus but leaves the others as they were 2 years before is imo a bug. Makes using the app become, well ugly.

c) Offering multiple ways to open a Window in GNOME is a bug. GTK+, GnomeUI, BonoboUI. This leads to inconsistency and total clutter.

d) Writing a new Fileselector but have the default apps use a mixture of old and New Fileselectors is imo a bug. By the way why should a developer waste time fixing all old and new Filedialogs ? If the stuff is properly written then you simply inherit the new Fileselector without noticing it. It's simply there. Here is a proof that not everything in GNOME 2.0 is re-written. Much of the stuff is simply ported from 1.x.

e) When copying files via Nautilus (say ftp.gnome.org) and you copy a subdir which includes MORE directories and files from that FTP to your Desktop and you get stuff like

(copying file 98 of 23)

Or get 0byte files copied from that FTP to your Desktop then this is a bug.

f) Gnomifying OpenOffice is an even bigger bug. The entire OpenOffice framework is based on the Staroffice Foundation Class (Their own Widgetset). Gnomifying all this is simply an idiotic task and leads to fragmentation in the code. Again they will do this work only hal. Only what you see will be changed not the rest. So the result is a mixture of old code and new changed User Experience.

g) Hardcoded UI is a bug (at least under GNOME), it leads no space for UI designers to fix all the stuff without code skills. Where should they start ? In the Hardcoded stuff ? In the *.glade stuff ? In the .xml stuff ?

h) Having all apps do their own bookmarks system is a bug, There is no central bookmarks solution. Same for Addressbooks etc.

i) When I call out for a bounty and have people called up to 'tweak and fiddle' Evolution support into the Panel Callendar then this is a bug and not a feature. A feature would be if I changed the Callendar Object so when I inherit it into other applications that all these apps will benefit from the Evolution support and not just one.

----
And yes what you write is indeed also a big problem (at least your text is partially right). A lot of undocumented API changes. A lot of undocumented changes itself.

E.g. I wrote a little Application which uses a GtkCombo I was in the assumption to use a good API from GTK and then one day they changed the Widget and marked this one DEPRECATED and this in a new App that I wrote.

The changes are quite huge and I feel quite frustrated having this one changed to adopt the new Widgets. It's not just trivial changes these changes I have to do are quite huge and will take me a couple of days. The days I usually have to stay motivated to do the work. Now instead of improving my application I need to fiddle around to remove the old stuff, go through 10 source files and remove the stuff. Not to mention that I also need to re-write huge chunks of code only to fix the stuff.

While the old GtkCombo allowed me to simply attach a GList to it (my 'History' function is based on a GList which contains 5 Listentries which have Data applied) I now need to create an entire TreeModell again and populate that Tree with these values.

What I do here is changing a well thought interface (which I spent hours to figure out before) into a new interface and what I do is tweak and fiddle the stuff in a way to make it fit there. Which then leaves other parts of my code get slightly unoptimal as I used to have in mind before.

Why so frustrated and why attacking my person ? Do you fear that I could be right and you not ? Your reply is far to ridiculous and only a try to publicly destroy my creditibility rather than a sign of willing to accept the critics as I write them (since they are right) and start discussion with the community and have these problems solved. People like you are more up to attack those who bring up constructive criticism and feedback rather than true willing to change the true things.

> What are you actually trying to say. Does every
> application need to add GStreamer? Why don't you specify
> precisely what features are not implemented and state
> where GNOME has stated officially or unofficially not to
> implement it.

Not every application needs to embedd GStreamer that's pure rubbish. But the audio stuff should and should do that correctly. Right now in GNOME we deal with direct Xine calls and GStreamer calls. Developer have been chosing Xine in many tools (Totem and Rhythmbox) due to stability reasons because GStreamer still is unfinished, no stable API and no general stability. They do still offer the posibility to include the GStreamer stuff but what benefits does it give when it locks up during playback or simply doesn't play back at all. Go and get a look in the code yourself id you don't trust my words. Let's continue with the new GMixer, it was hyped that it now supports the GStreamer stuff but yet it doesn't. When I select 'alsasink' in GConf-Editor then I would like to be able to Mix the alsa stuff and not get a dialog that the sound devices an not be found. The reason why it can not be found is it still expects the OSS emulation in Alsa to be active so it just mixes the OSS part of alsa but not the native part. I thought it uses GStreamer here, so I do assume it to use the right sinks and right devices to Mix. Just one example.

> Still short on specifics. If you are such a great software
> developer and you claim to have been working for GNOME but
> yet you have not been able to solve even one of the
> problems you whine about years on end.

The problem here is you can't simply sent in bugfixes or patches when your innerst tells you that this is plain wrong and needs to be re-done correctly. See it like a house where you continue glueing stuff into it. A bit here, a bit there a bit in another place and you see how the stuff you are doing makes no sense but yet you continue because you can't convince the other owners that it would be better to trash the entire house and start from scratch.

> Where are all the bug reports you have filed? Where are
> all the patches you are submitted that the GNOME 'people'
> have refused to commit. Please give us more facts, and
> soon.

They are either on bugzilla.gnome.org or made their way in the Applications in case they got accepted. I know you are trying to pick here but you won't be successful. For further information you can look into ChangeLogs. But this isn't your point at all, you will reply and tell me that you wasn't able to find a shit (many others have tried this before). I think you should get out of your tunnelview and your evangelism here and start looking into the real problems. Guess why there aren't any changes in GNOME because people and developers fear to do these changes or raise constructive criticism because it ends in things like this. Ignorance, Elitism, Tunnelview and even worse Namecalling.

> How about you give an example of the clutter that this
> causes. Are you complaining that GTK+ has only one way to
> open a window, or that GnomeUI has only one way to open a
> window or that GTK, GnomeUI and BonoboUI altogether have
> three ways to open a window?

The problem here is interoperability with the rest of GNOME. Try opening a couple of applications on your GNOME desktop. Say one program written using GnomeUI, one written in GTK+ one written in BonoboUI. Now go to:

Desktop-Preferences -> Menus&Toolbars

And fiddle around with the values there. You will see that some programs imidiately change the Toolbar and Menu behaviour, some not, some change their appearance after they got opened and closed and some even do not react on these settings at all. Just one example only to satisfy your questions here.

Technically they are a pain to maintain too. Specially for UI people, those who go from app to app fixing all the paddings, Layout of buttons and widgets etc. There is a big difference if you use one GUI designer or one system to change all this or need to learn 3-4 different but common used ways to change all this.

It is problematic having hardcoded UI in the code (which requires that an UI expert needs to learn to programm to solve these things) or if you use GLADE (which can create *.glade files or simply embeddable code) or if you use BonoboUI with it's *.xml files. They are all totally differently, different attributes, different behaviour etc. And yet I do see people using all these things in their own apps over and over again. Sure core developers may use the correct way for their upcoming products but not the new developers who start working on their apps. They use GLADE to build the interface but forget or don't know that GLADE isn't aware of all the new DEPRECATED widgets or new widgets that have been introduced lately. Go and look yourself.

> just tells me that you don't know or understand sh*t about
> things in GNOME as you claim all the time. It also brings
> doubt your claimed knowledge about software development
> because I don't need to remind you of what happens during
> API changes such as the one going on in the FileSelector.

No I was more demonstrating how good the KDE framework for these kind of things are. They change the Object Fileselector one time (regardless what changes they do) and it's automatically inherit into other apps. While in GNOME they now offer 2 Fileselectors the old and the new one. Different API is a problem here but this is a sign that the stuff is simply an artifact from GTK 1 and GNOME 1 times. If it was a total rewrite as you want to make me believe then this would have been introduced far earlier.

What I also speak about is the consistent look of these Fileselectors. The new Fileselector now offers this stupid 'expander' widget where you first get a locationbar (at least some apps show this) and then need to press the expander to get the rest of the files shown. To much magic and to much 'usability experts' have made a huge mess once again for a simply shitty fileselector. Jesus we use Fileselectors of 20 years and longer they do what the name says showing files and directories where we can simply dive in and do the task. No magic techno stuff that yet requires 3 mouseclicks to actually do what I want.

> This one and all the rest of your 'examples' are just too
> funny. You have just gone to 'bugzilla' and copied things
> over.

No I didn't copied them but it's ok for me that you confirm these problems to exist. Now we have GNOME 2.6 in a couple of days and these problems are still there since GNOME 2.0 or even earlier who actually knows. You seriously want to go enterprise with these problems ? And when will they get fixed ? Is it even possible to fix these issues ?

> Unless you can show an official or unofficial policy
> from GNOME not to fix these issues, they are moot. Just
> because they are not fixed when you want does not make the
> framework broken.

As long these things are not fixed and even unknown whether they can be fixed at all - yes I do have the tendency to say that these things are broken. People who write a FTP client for GNOME use an alternative library to do these things since they can not reliably use the ones offered in the GNOME framework due to these errors. People writing a Webbrowser for example can't use the HTTP backend of gnome-vfs due it not to work reliable not doing redirections for URL's etc. Sure there are always bugs in such projects. I am the last person admitting that there aren't bugs. Every bigger project has a lot of them and this is natural and just the way it is.

But here are the fundamental problems I do see in GNOME. They spent to much time rewriting stuff over and over again and want to do everything the right way (excuse me, there isn't something as the right way, there is just one way and another way but the right way doesn't exist). You need to finish a project and then head over to the other one and make sure that with increasing version of GNOME that the stuff you offer to the people is less painful and usable.

Nautilus used to show signals of becoming a well not as crappy Filemanager as it used to be and now it has been changed into a Spatial Filemanager. This is a drastical change for the Users. While they have done such drastical changes in the behavior of Nautilus they forget to fix the other things due to lack of resources. Imo it would have been better fixing gnome-vfs and all the other tiny bits and bytes rather than re-writing stuff that has been written before and has shown signal that they work. This is going over and over in GNOME and still no sign or signal where we as users can see (look here the evolution of the software is finished, we can have it stay that way and lets continue working on other bits). No they are busy throwing over concepts and re-write them over and over again. And all the developers outside who work on their own software need to play catchup to have their app following the new changes. Instead doing the funstuff to continue improving their app they stick into all these messy changes.

And hey, this is just my very own opinion. That's why I do fullheartly welcome the Quality and Assurance team in KDE. They will clearly signal the developers 'hey what are you doing now ?'.

> I'm sure I'm not the only one tired of seeing all these
> verbose spillage of fud from you every time a GNOME
> article shows up.

Whatever you think. There are people outside who agree with me there are people outside who agree with you. That's life but I do see a reason here to make people understand these things before writing editorials like these. A good solid framework and nice applications are important.

If people come over and over again with their counted Applications they like to use and others come over with the same old junk over and over. The same way I come over with the same stuff to make people understand the problems here.

GNOME has copied a lot of stuff from MacOSX and Windows in the past months and years. Sadly the wrong bits were copied.

A last thing to add from my side that people do not think about. KDE already offers all these things already. Two years ago when I used KDE 3.x I already noticed a lot of stuff in KDE that were missing and still are missing in GNOME.

I do know that one day someone will fix the broken gnome-vfs. But when ? As long as these things are not working properly people use other libraries to solve the solutions they need to solve. GNOME may (or may not) get all these things one day. Say in 2 years by now. But KDE had exactly all these things 2 years ago already. There is a development difference of 4 years between both Desktop solutions. While GNOME is catching up to what KDE offered 2 years ago KDE continues to quickly expand in all areas and the applications it offers are growing as well and new applications can easily be developed in a short timeframe.

These things you should take into account to when doing such editorials. Not just looking at fancy icons and compare two screenshots. I would say the same things about GNOME if GNOME were in the position to be much enchanced over KDE. Although even KDE is lacking a bunch of things that I would see more improved.

- Split out applications in own Modules like in GNOME rather than having all put into kdelibs, kdebase, kdeutils etc.
- More clean layout of includes in the includes directory like GNOME does (by default and not per distro excuse during install).
- Make sure the .po files come with the module rather than a separate huge translated tarball.

I here again do like the way GNOME does it. As you see neither of both are perfect.

Well said, well said (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8840450)

point.

Rob (-1, Offtopic)

James A. M. Joyce (764379) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840105)

Slashdot's gone cold I'm wondering why I got out of bed at all
The morning rain clouds up my window and I can't see at all
And even if I could it'll all be gray but your picture on my wall
It reminds me, that it's not so bad -- it's not so bad

Dear Rob, I wrote but you still ain't callin
I left my email, my ICQ, and my yahoo chat at the bottom
I sent two emails back in autumn, you must not-a got 'em
There probably was a problem with your sendmail or somethin
Sometimes I scribble email addees too sloppy when I jot 'em
but anyways; fsck it, what's been up? Man how's your boxes?
My boxes is linux too, I'm bout to be a compiler
once I learn gcc,
I'ma go on and compile for hours
I read about your Palm Pilot too I'm sorry
I had a friend lose his Palm over at the airport in Maradonna
I know you probably hear this everyday, but I'm your biggest fan
I even read all your bullshit Linux news and Microsoft's man
I got a room full of your posters and your pictures man
I like the way you sold your ass out too, that shit was fat
Anyways, I hope you get this man, hit me back,
just to chat, truly yours, your biggest fan
This is Stan

Dear Rob, you still ain't called or wrote, I hope you have a chance
I ain't mad - I just think it's FSCKED UP you don't answer fans
If you didn't wanna talk to me outside your Linux World
you didn't have to, but you coulda signed an autograph for Matthew
That's my Senior sys admin he's only 26 years old
We waited on a 9600 baud for you,
four hours and you just said, "No."
That's pretty shitty man - you're like his fsckin idol
He wants to be just like you man, he likes you more than I do
I ain't that mad though, I just don't like bein lied to
Remember when we met in Boston - you said if I'd write you
you would write back - see I'm just like you in a way
I never had a clue about shit either
I gcc'd shit with my wife then beat her
I can relate to what you're saying in your page
so when I feel like rmusering I read Slashdot to begin the rage
cause I don't really got shit else so that shit helps when I'm depressed
I even got a tattoo of slashdot across the chest
Sometimes I even packet myself to see how much it floods
It's like adrenaline, the DDoS is such a sudden rush of blood
See everything you say is real, and I respect you cause you tell it
My girlfriend's jealous cause I talk about you 24/7
But she don't know you like I know you Rob, no one does
She don't know what it was like for people like us growin up
You gotta call me man, I'll be the biggest fan you'll ever lose
Sincerely yours, Stan -- P.S.
We should be together too

Dear Mister-I'm-Too-Good-To-Waste-A-Packet-On-My-Fans,
this'll be the last packet I ever send your ass
It's been six months and still no word - I don't deserve it?
I know you got my last two emails
I wrote the @ signs on 'em perfect
So this is my payload I'm sending you, I hope you hear it
I'm on my modem now, I'm doing 9600 baud so fear it
Hey Rob, I drank a fifth of vodka, you dare me to code?
You know the song by Deep Purple or Slayer
its irrelevant by playing on my linux player
while I write some php scripts and play some Dragonslayer
That's kinda how shit is, you coulda rescued me from drowning
Now it's too late - I'm on a 1000 downloads now, I'm drowsy
and all I wanted was a lousy letter or a call
I hope you know I ripped +ALL+ of your pictures off the wall
I love you Rob, we coulda been together, think about it
You ruined it now, I hope you can't sleep and you dream about it
And when you dream I hope you can't sleep and you SCREAM about it
I hope your conscience EATS AT YOU and you can't BREATHE without me
See Rob {*screaming*} Shut up bitch! I'm tryin to code
Hey Rob, that's my senior admin screamin from the comode
but I didn't cut the power off, I just rebooted, see I ain't like you
cause if rm -rf'd we'd suffer more, and then the boxes die too
Well, gotta go, I'm almost BGP bridged now
Oh shit, I forgot, how'm I supposed to send this packet out?

Dear Stan, I meant to write you sooner but I just been busy
You said your box is running now, how'd you like your gcc?
Look, I'm really flattered you would install 7.0 Redhat
and here's an autograph for your senior sys admin
I wrote it on the Starter cap
I'm sorry I didn't see you at the show, I musta missed you
Don't think I did that shit intentionally just to diss you
But what's this shit you said about you like to DDoS lamers too?
I say that shit just clownin dog,
c'mon - how fucked up is you?
You got some issues Stan, I think you need some counseling
so heres some more Linux stories to keep your ass busy when you get down some
And what's this shit about us meant to be together?
I sold Slashdot for thousands so now I'm a single jetsetter
I really think you and your boxes need each other
or maybe you just need to treat them better
I hope you get to read this letter, I just hope it reaches you in time
before you hurt yourself, I think that you'll be doin just fine
if you relax a little, I'm glad I inspire you but Stan why are you so mad? Try to understand, that Linux and MS is just grand
I just don't want you to do some crazy shit
I seen this one shit on the news a couple weeks ago that made me sick
Some dude was drunk and switched his router for a bridge
and his packets were blackholed, and his DNS couldn't get digged
and in the colo they found a tape, but they didn't say who it was to
Come to think about, his name was.. it was you
Damn!

wxWidgets (1)

OGmofo (189475) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840110)


Enough said.

Windows Developers (5, Insightful)

brolewis (712511) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840148)

I am a developer who believes in cross-platform development. However, I do most of my development in a Windows environment. I write code in Windows, test in Windows, and release it from Windows, and everything I've worked on is OSS. However, according to Trolltech, I don't exist. Why do they assume that because the OS I happen to develop on isn't open source there isn't an open source community in that niche? They comment that most Windows users perfer shareware, however, that is not the case. I find that there are a number of Windows users who are wanting to use open source programs for their own work and yet here Qt is preventing us from using their tools because they feel the users aren't there. I find this an unfortunate development.

Re:Windows Developers (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8840209)

> Qt is preventing us from using their tools

QT is not preventing you or others from using their tools. You only need to pay for the license.

Re:Windows Developers (0)

brolewis (712511) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840269)

You are correct. I guess the better statement would have been: Qt is preventing us from using an OSS solution of their tools that do not require a pay license. I develop OSS as a hobby and release my software for free. I do not want to have to pay for the license when I will (most likely) never recoup that investment.

Re:Windows Developers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8840385)

Well you can develop OSS under Linux using QT without paying a license. On Windows basicly not many people will use QT because they keep using MFC or the stuff they offer native.

Haha (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8840175)

Once again the open sores people show their professionalism by naming their company "Trolltech"!

Re:Haha (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8840205)

Better than having something that's "micro" and "soft".

Scandinavian deathmatch! (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8840195)

Let the world vote - which scandiavian country is best on open source? Norway (Qt), Sweden (Mysql) or perhaps Finland (you know who...). What is Denmark doing, btw...?

Re:Scandinavian deathmatch! (-1)

ircbuddy (732046) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840251)

Denmark is doing your mother, cockwhore.

What???? (5, Interesting)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840271)

"EE (laughing): As some people mentioned on the dot, it has partly to do with finances, sales and Trolltech's business model. Another point is the fact that Windows is a closed source Operating System. There is no community for Free Software development under Windows."

Well it sure as hell will not evolve using QT! This is just a load of monkey muffins. I use
Eclipse
Netbeans
FireFox
Thunderbird
Open Office
Perl
Python
DevCpp
GCC
and MySql on my windows box. No free software comunity by butt.

Re:What???? (0)

brolewis (712511) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840310)

And thats only to name the major projects! I develop a number of programs in the windows environment. I guess that all of these developers, both major and minor, are irrelevant (or rich enough to pay the license).

Also worth mentioning.... (1)

MAXOMENOS (9802) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840408)

...ICSharpCode.Net [icsharpcode.net] , which has the GPL's Sharpdevelop [icsharpcode.net] IDE for .NET

Don't pick surprising pronunciations (1)

ChaosDiscord (4913) | more than 10 years ago | (#8840293)

Feel free to call it whatever you like, but don't expect your end-users to use a potentially suprising pronunciation. If someone reading your name in print is going to come to a different conclusion, you've probably got a problem. I certainly hear lots of 'Ess-Queue-Ell' instead of Sequel for SQL. There's the ever popular Tex and Latex with the surprising Tech and La-Tech. (And for some reason people get really touchy over that one.) And so Cute is, well, cute, but expect lots of Queue-Tee (or more likely, Cutie).

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