SimChurch 606
Roland Piquepaille writes "It's Sunday and some of you might go to a church. But starting on May 11, and for a duration of three months, you'll be able to go to a virtual church. Only the building, with its altar and pews, will be virtual. The preacher, congregation and prayers will be real, according to this BBC News article, 'Glimpse inside the virtual church.' This experiment is launched by a Christian website, Ship of Fools, and will be named Church of Fools. Even with such a foolish name, the virtual church project has been approved by the church hierarchy. This overview contains other details and references about the Church of Fools project."
WWJD? (Score:5, Interesting)
On one hand, as a coder, sitting in front of the computer for hours on end I can attest to the meditative state the computer puts me in. I'm not a practicing catholic, but was raised one. Church never really had me contemplating as much as the cathode ray bombarding my brain with it's "green soothing light does". Of course i was a child.
On the other, if this virtual church has "pop up ads" and a whole other pile of garbage, what would jesus do? I mean in the bible he got angry [ubcaustin.org] because the holy place was being disrespected, because the spiritual was being commercialized, because the Temple was being desecrated by those who kill the holy and sell it...
Is this a joke?
Re:WWJD? (Score:5, Informative)
So no, it's not being "desecrated."
I find the idea rather interesting. It's a decent step above those televised churches. You can actually ask people questions online. So, if it works for some people, more power to them, IMHO.
Re:WWJD? (Score:5, Funny)
WJWD (Score:5, Interesting)
That's What Jesus Would Do.
Of all the non threatening social situations, I can't imagine a less threatening atmosphere than a church.
But who knows, maybe this will find it's niche.
As long as they don't junk it up with ads and demand membership fees or whatnot the only problem I see with it is that the internet is a wire monkey. It's bad to depend on the internet for your social fix. Real life person to person interaction is necessary. And of all the places to avoid it, church isn't it.
I also have to wonder how they're going to deal with trolls.
Ben
Re:WJWD (Score:5, Insightful)
I used to be a regular churchgoer however nowadays I find it difficult to go to my church - mainly due to my lifestyle and not actually being awake when a church service is on, and also lack of motivation. However, this is something I definitely intend to try - on a personal level, I'd much rather be a true Christian rather than not and going to church, with the social atmosphere, is part of that - I believe this is something that would help people, both like myself, and also those who would never try a church.
Re:WJWD (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:WJWD (Score:3, Insightful)
Disclaimer: I am an atheist. I really don't get this thing at all.
Re:WJWD (Score:5, Insightful)
But there's a deeper problem. If your church is solely online, you will be missing out on a lot. Jesus never intended for Christians to be isolated apart from each other. Sure, you can get your Bible study and preaching over the Net or TV, and you can worship in your house to a Sonicflood or Third Day or Petra CD, but you don't have people to check up on you when you're sick, invite over for dinner, keep you accountable, pray for you, discuss the Bible with, etc.
You NEED other flesh-and-blood believers near you. Note that that doesn't necessarily need to be a formal church. A group of people simply committing to follow Christ where they are and keep each other accountable is good enough.
*boggle* (Score:5, Insightful)
Churches can be downright mean, especially if you manage to violate the mores of a particular congregation in some heinous fashion such as wearing a short-sleeved shirt or singing off key. Where else do you go where, when you come in, you're asked to stand up in front of a couple of hundred people so they can all get a good look at you?
Note - I love the church. In fact, I'm an itinerant preacher and may be a pastor pretty soon (i.e. as soon as God forces me to give up my rather nice salary in tech in order to serve his people full-time.) But let's not try to pretend that churches are non-threatening.
Last Sunday (Score:5, Insightful)
"But let's not try to pretend that churches are non-threatening."
Churches are as non threatening as Pastors allow them to be. I havn't dressed up for church in a very long time. Years. In fact every monday there's a very rugged looking guy who comes in who knows pretty much everybody.
"Where else do you go where, when you come in, you're asked to stand up in front of a couple of hundred people so they can all get a good look at you?"
At church, the only one you should be paying attention to is God and His Word. If all you're interested in is the fashion show and vocals of the people around you, you might as well just stay home.
Sounds like you're working for and attend a very hyporitical church that's more worried about looks than spirituality.
So yes, Church is the most non-threatening social environment there is. If a church isn't, then it isn't a church you should be going to.
"as soon as God forces me to give up my rather nice salary in tech in order to serve his people full-time"
So, as soon as he forces you to stop being greedy?
God's not in the habit of forcing people not to do things. Sounds like your church has a lot of serious issues that need to be dealt with and you're more interested in a good pay check and denying serious problems exist playing it off like they're normal, than dealing with them.
Your church is not normal. It's broken. I can't believe you're a pastor even part time if you can't see this and see what's wrong with it.
Maybe everyone would be better off if you weren't the pastor so that someone else with better bearings on what a church should be can run the place and fix it.
Ben
Re:Last Sunday (Score:3, Insightful)
It happens...in every single church, bible study, and prayer group on the planet and people get damaged in the process. You may think that your chu
Every church is threatening (Score:5, Insightful)
Example1: Jesus didn't say anything about homosexuality, but he did mention that remarriage after divorce was a sin, and that the resulting relationship was adulterous. However, most churches today are OK with divorced couples marrying, having sex, and having a family, but they are not ok with gay sex or marriage. The difference is the cultural norms in their surrounding community have accepted one, but not the other. As soon as gay marriage becomes overwhelmingly accepted, it will be treated in the same way as divorce and bans on interest bearing loans.
Example2: The Southern Baptists split with the Northern Baptists over slavery. You can guess which baptist congregation thought it was a sin, and which one thought it wasn't. Both had scriptural arguments.
Example3: The U.S. is a society which focuses on individual success resulting from individual action (e.g. hard work, clean living.) Other cultures are more focused on collective success and collective responsibility (e.g. good schools, effective legal system, social welfare.) Therefore the U.S. churches "spiritualize" this bias by focusing on individual sin/repentance (being personally saved), as opposed to group sin/repentance (social justice), although one must look for relatively rare discussion of the former in the scriptures, since almost all exhortations in the old and new testaments, revolve around the latter. Indeed, most American Christians would consider it discrimination to be punished for something which they didn't individually do, but did* as a group, whereas the Bible is filled with examples or promises of group punishments (punishment of a race, of a generation, of a city.)
Now, getting back to the original point, if you find yourself not sharing the mores of your church (i.e. you think interest bearing loans are cruel exploitation, or you are gay) then your positions will be opposed in the church, as they would in the larger community. However, the *difference* is that opposition in the church is often interpreted as "God disagrees with you" which, to a sincere believer, is much worse than the community disagreeing with him. Indeed each church believes, although there is a long history of previous churches in other cultures gettings things wrong, that *now* the truth is revealed, and *they* have the correct word of God.
And, adding to this ostracism phenomenon, is that we have a very fragmented culture, broken up into many little pockets, each of which have different mores, and so the odds are good that the church you randomly pick will not share your views. Finally, people move a lot, and so can easily find themselves in a place where there is no church that they feel they can go to, and still remain a sincere believer, without a lot of inner tension.
In this way, *every* church is threatening.
And there is no real solution, but it's certainly a step backwards to classify a church as "bad" if someone says it's threatening, since this just perpetuates the assumption that some church subcultures (e.g. adultery ok, homosexuality not ok) are better than others ("committed" homosexuality ok, adultery not ok.) The reason why this can't be the case, is that all of the subcultures are formed out of confused, fallen people, and then each church inherits the mores of it's ambient group. For instance, Jesus, when discussing adultery, made the point "This is wrong, but you were too weak, so Moses let you grant a certificate of divorce. Nevertheless, it's adultery. In fact, even wishing to have sex with a married woman is adultery." So basically each church makes allowances for accepting "sinful" behavior that is predominant in the community, and does not accept "sinful" behavior that is on the margins.
The only recommendation I have is to do some work and find a church that you can live with. In a major urban area, this should b
Re:*boggle* (Score:3, Interesting)
I've already been through the experience of receiving a calling from a cushy academic computing job to go to seminary. Now that I've been in seminary for 3 years, I don't think I can ever see myself working full-time in computing again, even if I do love these infernal machines. I'm working part-time in tech now to support my family while I study. Hopefully, my current pasto
Re:*boggle* (Score:3, Insightful)
It is a leader's responsibility to maintain a healthy environment. At our church our pastor had to put his foot down. Yes, we lost some long-time parishoners. They liked the status quo. They were the beneficiaries of the exclusive club. At the rate they were going they were going to be the only ones there, but they didn't care.
After the smoke cleared, the church became a place that welcomed
Re:*boggle* (Score:3, Funny)
Re:WJWD (Score:3, Funny)
if Jesus came back,
Man, jesus did come back, didn't you hear? He showed up and realized he would never be able to pwn mankind, threw his arms up in frustration, and left. Last I heard, he was arguing with his dad over whether or not to pull judgement day so they could start over and not make the same mistake again. I seem to recall his argument centered around "trying the same thing and expecting different results" or something like that.
Re:WWJD? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:WWJD? (Score:5, Informative)
-Troy
Re:WWJD? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:WWJD? (Score:3, Funny)
Priest: Oh God, we long for your light.
Congregation: In the darkness of our lives, you are a candle.
Priest: You call out to us, but we turn away to the bleakness of our daily lives.
All: Boy, we stink!
Priest: Show us your will, that we may blindly obey!
Congregation: We are dumb.
;-)
Have to wonder (Score:5, Insightful)
I mean, i thought that meeting up in church wasn't just about the worship
but was about the social interaction with others - the feeling of unity with
your peers. How can an "SimChurch" emulate that side of it?
Watching a webcast or something like it just isn't the same. Anyone who's watched the BBC program "songs of praise" will back me up on that one.
Simon.
Re:Have to wonder (Score:5, Insightful)
your peers. How can an "SimChurch" emulate that side of it?
Depending on the person, it won't.
However there's a whole world of intensely physically limited people, those with agorophobic disorders, panic/anxiety/social phobias, people who're unwell and incapacitated, the people who just CAN'T get out for some period of time in their life. I'm no churchgoer myself, but it keeps many people comforted. I see those groups benefitting.
Re:Have to wonder (Score:3, Insightful)
This cannot replace a physical church, but I don't see anything flawed with establishing a community online. I think most of us want to be a part of something. As long as there is a way for people to become involved, it's a community.
Re:Have to wonder (Score:3, Funny)
We'd start the service by singing "Descramble", take a reading from the book of Linus, a preacher would then preach about the evils of using Windows and how all those who used it would be thrown into the pit of Blue Screens at the day of reconing. The preacher will then bless the holy chips and sacred Jolt cola (for those are the substances the Linus lived off of during the 40 days and nights that he wrote the kernel), and we'd have a kind of communion. The p
Re:Have to wonder (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Have to wonder (Score:2, Insightful)
People online communicate best the way people unable to see or speak to one another always have -- via written language. Limiting written interaction to "speech bubbles" in a cartoon church seems a pretty foolish way to crea
Re:Have to wonder (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Have to wonder (Score:2, Insightful)
Sounds exactly what happens here at slashtot.
All together now: All hail the mighty Penguin...
Re:Have to wonder (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, but many times the social interaction can be an absolute detriment to the practice of actually worshipping. As strongly as I believe in Christianity, I've found that some within that religion have managed to take over many of the sanctuaries with petty politics, and general thought control, and it's either under the nose or with the consent of the minister.
Sadly, the message of Christianity gets twisted, misunderstood, or just plain lost under the din of the congregation.
The virtual Church is novel, and certainly not for everyone, but then such is every flavor of religion in general. Faith is a very personal decision.
My favorite response to those who claim to be a Christian because they go to church comes from Joyce Meyer: "I can sit in my garage; it doesn't make me a car."
I've added Ship of Fools to my bookmarks. ;-)
--
General disclaimer: I'm not pushing my faith on you. Thank you for not pushing yours on me.
Re:Have to wonder (Score:3, Interesting)
Jesus said plenty about the thoughts being as significant as the deed. Look at a woman lustfully = committing adultery with her in your heart. Be angry with your brother = subject to judgement.
See: Matthew Chapter 5 [gospelcom.net]
In fact what Jesus talks about has become even more applicable as time goes on - technology exists to allow people to have virtual sex with each other with
talk about heresy (Score:5, Funny)
Re:talk about heresy (Score:2)
Re:talk about heresy (Score:4, Funny)
Re:talk about heresy (Score:5, Interesting)
Will immortals no longer be able to kill the Highlander whilst one of his mozilla tabs has the simchurch open?
Re:talk about heresy (Score:3, Interesting)
Now, I don't know your gender, but lets make some suppositions:
If you are male, then you are asking females to either be rather petite (or anorexic), or pretty smart (IQ 145? That's pretty high.). Despite what some mags make you think, 100 lbs isn't the average weight a white female. Try 140 lbs for a 30 yr. old woman Halls Md [halls.md]. (this is the 50th percentile). This means that if you are male, then you are looking for a woman with an IQ of at least 140. 145 would put her at THREE sta
Prior Art: LOL (Score:2)
Re:Prior Art: LOL (Score:3, Funny)
"You know, son, you can take communinion online now, using a methodist modem"
Internet Church might be the thing of the future, but its current state is awful.
Defeating some of the purpose? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Defeating some of the purpose? (Score:5, Insightful)
-Troy
Re:Defeating some of the purpose? (Score:5, Insightful)
I for one (Score:2, Funny)
Brilliant Idea (Score:4, Funny)
Never been done before... (Score:5, Funny)
"...no one has built an interactive 3D church environment before - complete with gothic arches and hard wooden pews."
HAVE YOU NEVER PLAYED DEUS EX???
The Ark (Score:5, Informative)
-Troy
Proud Shipmate
Confession? (Score:5, Funny)
Sorry, I'm getting a bit carried away.
Hmmm... (Score:3, Funny)
Huxley
Re:Hmmm... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Hmmm... (Score:4, Funny)
Hopefully.. (Score:2, Funny)
Use your Online Ordination (Score:2, Funny)
I don't even need to buy candles!
Re:Use your Online Ordination (Score:2)
This is not just for laughs (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This is not just for laughs (Score:2)
Re:This is not just for laughs (Score:5, Insightful)
I'll grant that it might help the sick, I can't say it would do much for the handicapped since I'd think most churches have a few people dedicated to bringing them in.
Re:This is not just for laughs (Score:5, Funny)
Uh, what rural areas are you talking about? I used to live in an unincorporated town in Mississippi. It was seven miles to the nearest gas station, and there were no fast food restaurants or video rental stores. But we had three churches. Believe me, the places that are too rural to support churches are probably too rural to support internet access. Or electricity.
Re:This is not just for laughs (Score:4, Insightful)
Sim Donations? (Score:2, Insightful)
Just another scam in hiding, as is most organized religion. ( not the concept of religious belief, just that when you organize it, its ready-made scam material for the gullible. )
Might be a good alternative for some. (Score:5, Interesting)
that (or something very similar) was what my pastor said when i asked him about marring me at my parents house instead of the church building itself. I dont see what that same concept couldnt apply to an online church.
Im actually quite tempted to "show up" may 11th. I was raised a christian, still consider myself one, however for various reasons I rarely attend services anymore.... (mainly lack of motivation on my part to actully get up, get ready & drive over to the church) I fully realize thats no excuse at all.. but visiting a virtual service or two might be just what the doctor ordered.
Re:Might be a good alternative for some. (Score:4, Informative)
"For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."
ObLink... (Score:4, Funny)
...to the best Church site on the net: Landover Baptist Church [landoverbaptist.org]. Praise the Lord!
In There... (Score:3, Interesting)
There are all kinds of people in games like Second Life, There, and The Sims Online that take the game way too seriously. It's only a matter of time before someone starts religious services, if they haven't already.
I've seen groups of people all wearing shirts with Crosses and quotes like "Got Jesus?" for a while. An official meeting place on Sundays is only one step away.
Not gonna work (Score:5, Insightful)
They're going to need a lot of fast fingured moderators to keep that place "holy."
Ben
I couldn't help it... (Score:3, Informative)
And... free, with a visit to the "house of fools" site, the companion guide:
Religion For Dummies [amazon.com]
-- :P
and yes, I *am* an atheist
Hax0rs? (Score:2, Insightful)
Not the same as going to church... (Score:2)
Do Anglicans believe in transubstantiation? (Score:2, Insightful)
Hoc est enim cookie meum.
Are the Christian priests and pastors Avatars? (Score:2, Interesting)
Confessional (Score:5, Funny)
The Future of Religion (Score:3, Funny)
I guess the only downside is that people would probably expect the ceremony to be consumated by cybersex.
Just like virtual sex? (Score:5, Insightful)
Think of all the benefits. Just think of all the sacraments:
Virtual communion - zero calories, and won't put you over the limit for when you drive
Virtual marriage - When it goes sour you can always claim it wasn't you on the other end of the computer and keep half your stuff.
Virtual baptism - Only your avatar will get wet.
Virtual last rites - Not as depressing when its an avatar not a real person.
Some things will always be better in person no matter how emmersive the virtual reality. This is totally wasted on me completely. I'm not religious. Religion has in some ways been the bane of my existence. I'd just love it if those that are would just leave me alone and I don't look forward to the prospect of increased net evangelism though I know its bound to happen.
I'm not a troll either though.
gimmicks have a point (Score:4, Interesting)
Semi-serious question (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Semi-serious question (Score:3)
come one people (Score:3, Interesting)
I'll bite the troll (Score:3, Insightful)
most of the religious discussion I've witnessed on this site is neither thoughtful nor productive,
those who "comment" upon religion, either pro- or con-, usually begin by assuming that theirs is the only rational pos
Re:Proving my point (Score:3, Insightful)
I think the confusion is yours, not mine. There is a world of difference between agreeing with someone's opinion and respecting their right to be wrong. I'm suggesting that until you demonstrate the latter, you aren't going to get much in the way of useful discussion. You are much more likely to get the m
Txt Gspl (Score:2, Funny)
please keep it on a separate network (Score:4, Funny)
HA! (Score:2, Funny)
"Except whatever that man with the priest icon says."
For those using linx... (Score:5, Funny)
Donate O$5 O$10 @$50 via PayPal
Deftly pass it along while hanging your head in virtual shame
-Adam
This is BRILLIANT! +5 Flame (Score:5, Funny)
Oh flame away...
Cultural problems? (Score:5, Insightful)
No such thing as a "virtual church" (Score:3, Insightful)
They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
Acts 2:42-47
These two passages, while not giving the complete picture, give a window into what a church is supposed to look like. In America, churches act like vendors of religious goods and services -- just a worldly business like any other. The early church lived more like a commune than a McJesus'. But today, a virtual church is only the logical extension of the modern church business model.
The fact that anyone would be willing to call this a church shows how corrupted the definition of church has become. A church is a group of people who are willing to sacrifice their lives for God, for one another, and for the good of the world. A church is a group of people who choose to live their lives in true community, not hiding behind suburbia. A group of people who choose to live with values completely different from those of a greedy, callous, militaristic, mechanized society. The hospital is an invention of the church when it was the church, when people and communities freely opened up their homes to the sick, poor, and homeless. Today we have conferences, retreats, and other pseudo-religous claptrap (not to mention junk and pulp theology like Prayer of Jabez or Purpose Driven Life).
So this web site is not a church. That's not the real surprise. But guess what? That stone building down the street where people go on Sunday to munch bagels and gossip? That's not a church either. It's a fraud. It's a country club disguised as a religious institution. It exists only for itself and is more about excluding people than including them.
April Ship of Fools? (Score:3, Funny)
Browsing the Ship of Fools site I came across the contest to pick an 11th commandment. [shipoffools.com] The first winner was "Thou shalt not worship false pop idols". The top five choices won digital cameras. :-)
note to moderators (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Religion is for the week-minded (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Religion is for the week-minded (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Religion is for the week-minded (Score:3, Insightful)
Lets apply your logic. I believe 2+2=4, and I believe you're an idiot, so I must be right on both counts.
Re:Religion is for the week-minded (Score:2, Informative)
Irrelevant [nizkor.org]: the number of people that believe something has nothing to do with its truth.
Re:The Return. (Score:3, Funny)
Re:What!!? (Score:2)
Re:Will the priests be able to... (Score:3, Informative)
Will the priests be able to virtually molest the alter boys?
That should read '...be able virtually to molest the altar boys?'. You shouldn't split an inifinitive, it's just bad grammar.
Re:Virtually real (Score:3, Funny)
You're a bot, aren't you?
Re:Athiests (Score:5, Insightful)
If you would like, I could bring up numerous factual examples of those who practice Christianity reacting in "frightful outrage" towards those who have different beliefs. To my understanding, many atheists have become atheist due to religious institutions giving moral backing to very dreadful and brutal acts.
I could go on, but that's not fair to those who do not fit into this generalization. I suspect this is why you are moderated "0, Insightful".
Sophistry (Score:5, Insightful)
That's sophistry. The burden of proof clearly lies with the theists to prove the existence of god or gods, just as it does for me to prove the existence of my invisible rabbit. And despite thousands of years of trying, the best the theists have managed is logically broken proofs similar to Descartes'. Meanwhile, I'm still working on proving my bunny...
Re:Sophistry (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Sophistry (Score:3, Interesting)
I can tell you a story of a friend who was raised from the dead, of a Chinese preacher who lived for 74 days in prison wi
Re:Sophistry (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Monotheism (Score:3, Interesting)
This isn't about "keeping the truth from everyone". That's silly. Ask a Jew about his religion, he'll tell you everything you want to know (to the limit of their own knowledge). It's funny, but Judaism the religion has no "secrets only clergy may know". Even kaballah was not really secret so much as reserved for people who had a deep under
Re:Monotheism (Score:3, Interesting)
A final addendum: Christians don't believe you go to heaven for keeping a set of laws. An interesting contrast to Judaism, I think.