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Lip Sync Problems with New Digital Displays?

simoniker posted about 10 years ago | from the kung-fu-movie-syndrome dept.

Movies 311

An anonymous reader writes "With all of the new digital TV displays flying out the door, its easy to to think that life is good on the road to high definition. But, as Audioholics reports today, cheaper displays are using inexpensive processors that result in video delays of up to 60 milliseconds (that's about 2 frames of video). This means that the video processing (deinterlacing, video scaling, etc) delays the picture so that the audio is out of sync. Add to this inherent delays in some LCD and plasma units and the problem can be more than a little noticeable. As of right now only a few manufacturers are building audio lip-sync delay into their products to compensate."

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311 comments

Ah, that explains it. (5, Funny)

grub (11606) | about 10 years ago | (#8952532)


I was wondering why Ron Jeremy's tongue was trailing behind the licking sound.

Re:Ah, that explains it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8952628)

Ready on the set! Cue humorless/uncultured person to ask what this joke is about in 3 ... 2... 1...

Ready... and cue overly helpful dipshit to explain the hell out of the joke, thus rendering it at least TWICE as funny in 3 ... 2 ... 1...

Re:Ah, that explains it. (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8952680)

Ron Jeremy is a personallity on FoodTV. He specializes in ice cream, thus the licking joke. I don't really see why anyone would want to watch such a fat man lick things but hey, to each his own.

Mod Moderation Funny (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8952777)

Ron Jeremy... FoodTV... "Informative"... LMAO!

Re:Ah, that explains it. (5, Funny)

The Ultimate Fartkno (756456) | about 10 years ago | (#8952832)



Previous poster is full of it! Ron Jeremy is a California-based businessman who's known for his length of service and enormous gifts in his industry.

He's known to be a bit underhanded though. He's given the shaft to *hundreds* of co-workers.

Re:Ah, that explains it. (4, Funny)

conner_bw (120497) | about 10 years ago | (#8952688)

Ready on the set! Cue humorless/uncultured person to ask what this joke is about in 3 ... 2... 1...

*sigh* Ron Jeremy, the mecca of american culture. Welcome to the cesspool we call the new millennium.

Re:Ah, that explains it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8952773)

Welcome to the cesspool we call the new millennium.

It's called the free market, baby!

Re:Ah, that explains it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8952757)

Quit replying to yourself, grub :P

Re:Ah, that explains it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8952776)

not me, mang. :)

Suck it (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8952553)

j00 4ll 4r3 t3h sux0rz.

1 g0t t3h FP 4nd j00 0t#3r5 4ll f41l l1k3 cry1ng 5ch00l g1rl.

w00t

Aaah... (4, Funny)

Doomrat (615771) | about 10 years ago | (#8952557)

Really? Damn. I was beginning to wonder why everything on T.V. was a badly dubbed German show.

All right! (5, Funny)

SCSi (17797) | about 10 years ago | (#8952561)

Now the lips in my old gozilla movies will be in sync! Deaf people everywhere are rejoycing!

Re:All right! (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8952632)

Yeah, those movies featuring rogue spyware programs smashing Tokyo buildings are pretty cool.

LOL (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8952837)

I wish, I wish, I wish I had mod points.

why do companies do this? (4, Insightful)

trmj (579410) | about 10 years ago | (#8952565)

"As of right now only a few manufacturers are building audio lip-sync delay into their products to compensate."

So once again, another company is working around the problem instead of fixing it. This seems to be a bad trend in technology these days.

Re:why do companies do this? (4, Informative)

cexshun (770970) | about 10 years ago | (#8952595)

Actually, that's the only way to fix this is a work around. As not only the article states, but common sense states that to fix this, you have to make video processing faster. We cannot do this with our current technology. So we have to use a work around until the technology catches up.

Re:why do companies do this? (3, Interesting)

grub (11606) | about 10 years ago | (#8952604)


Back ~1990 I bought a device from Barkus Berry Electronics which delayed higher frequencies a few ms to let the "slower" bass and low-mid frequencies play catch-up. The idea was that the woofer and midrange had a longer stroke than the tweeter which was required to make the sound. This let the bass and mid leave the speaker at the same time as the high end stuff.

I still have that unit, it really seems to "open up" the music more.

Re:why do companies do this? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8952647)

yeah -- right.

if you like how it sounds, I guess you can trash your fidelity anyway you like.

Re:why do companies do this? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8952666)

Bass in the studio is made at the same time as the high end. Your speakers can't do the same.

Re:why do companies do this? (1)

John Miles (108215) | about 10 years ago | (#8952784)

Bass in the studio is made at the same time as the high end. Your speakers can't do the same.

Sounds like it's time to add some elementary signal-processing theory to high-school physics curriculums.

Re:why do companies do this? (5, Insightful)

brokenwndw (471112) | about 10 years ago | (#8952617)

How exactly is this a work-around? Will you really notice if the entire feed is delayed by a fraction of a second? It seems to me like the right thing to do-- impose an external constraint that the audio and video feeds should be synchronized rather than count on the processors to be fast enough to make the difference unnoticeable. It should help in the future if people want more sophisticated transformations to be applied to either component of the stream.

Try playing Nintendo on such a TV (5, Insightful)

tepples (727027) | about 10 years ago | (#8952659)

Will you really notice if the entire feed is delayed by a fraction of a second?

If the feed is coming from a video game console that's responding to live user input, I'll certainly notice llaagg. A delay of 60ms can spell the difference between a hit and a miss, adversely affecting game scores.

Re:why do companies do this? (4, Insightful)

Tiroth (95112) | about 10 years ago | (#8952695)

What if the audio is coming through your stereo, not the TV? The the delay does nothing for you.

Re:why do companies do this? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8952741)

The display should have a audio line out. My TV does. I use it too switch both the video and the audio. The video delays are almost required, so delaying the audio is really the only fix.

Re:why do companies do this? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8952622)

no, this is not a bad trend in this case. The more expensive tuners that don't have delay issues cost way more money so by building in the delay you get a less expensive product that works for the task you want it to. The trend in technology isn't to work around issues instead of fixing them, it's to do things in the least expensive way possible, which is a good thing.

Re:why do companies do this? (2, Interesting)

... James ... (33917) | about 10 years ago | (#8952624)

The Onkyo TX-DS989 I bought in umm... 99 has an audio delay feature. Digital displays (and digital content) were hardly as common then as they are now. Doesn't sound to me like they were working around this problem.

Re:why do companies do this? (4, Insightful)

rsmith-mac (639075) | about 10 years ago | (#8952677)

I really wouldn't call this a work-around; at the very least, there's a physical limit you have to deal with when it comes to pixel response of LCD panels, and you can only minimize the time needed to digitially process an image, you can't remove it. The fact of the matter is that audio has to be delayed in order to compensate for the greater complexity of video, there's nothing else you can do.

Audio vs Video processing (3, Informative)

xswl0931 (562013) | about 10 years ago | (#8952684)

Audio and Video processing happens asynchronously, so I don't know how you can avoid this. You can set a time limit, but then you will limit the amount of processing that can occur which sacrifices audio or video quality. I have a Panasonic 42" Plasma that does internal scaling. This is slower than doing Dolby Digital decoding. My Anthem AVM20 processor has an audio delay feature where now my audio and video are back in sync. Receivers are getting this feature so eventually it'll be commonplace.

Re:why do companies do this? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8952692)

trmj to his wife:

"No honey, we won't buy this TV. You know I watch the morning news and then I go to work right after. With this display I will be 60 milliseconds late."

Re:why do companies do this? (4, Insightful)

nacturation (646836) | about 10 years ago | (#8952697)

So once again, another company is working around the problem instead of fixing it.

One man's workaround is another man's fix. Here, the problem is that video lags the audio by a fraction of a second. So there's two solutions to this problem: play the video with less delay or play the audio with more delay. Adding delay to the audio costs close to $0 because it just needs to be buffered for the 60ms it takes for the video to be shown. Speeding up the video might double the cost of the display as you might need parallel video processors which break up the incoming signal by physical region. Or you might need to find a faster display technology which hasn't been invented yet.

Re:why do companies do this? (3, Interesting)

haystor (102186) | about 10 years ago | (#8952789)

We frequently watch hockey with the radio on going. The video comes in a second or so behind. This makes the radio play by play seem psychic at times.

"He shoots he scores!"
Then we see the shot and the goal.

"What is that you say?" (5, Funny)

Neil Blender (555885) | about 10 years ago | (#8952569)

"Let's Fight!"

<mouth keeps moving for several seconds>

Oh, wait. Those kung foo movies were always like that.

Big deal... (3, Funny)

tinrobot (314936) | about 10 years ago | (#8952573)

I only watch 1960's Italian westerns and old Godzilla movies. Who knows, it might actually help.

Re:Big deal... (4, Funny)

prescot6 (731593) | about 10 years ago | (#8952609)

I only watch 1960's Italian westerns...

Italian westerns? Ohh, you mean easterns...

Re:Big deal... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8952725)

Not if you're in Japan. :P

Re:Big deal... (4, Informative)

pegr (46683) | about 10 years ago | (#8952788)

Italian westerns? Ohh, you mean easterns...

No, Spaghetti Westerns [wikipedia.org] . Typically made from the mid 60s and early 70s, they made Clint Eastwood into the star he is today. Fast cuts, trippy music, lots of gunplay, and they were heavily (and poorly) dubbed, as most supporting roles were cast with italian actors.

They are considered classics now, as are the likes of "Fistful of Dollars" [imdb.com] and "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly" [imdb.com] Wonderfully loony and fun to watch.

audio/video out of sync? (0, Flamebait)

smitty werbenjuegerm (758411) | about 10 years ago | (#8952584)

Their video source wouldn't happen to be a linux machine playing macromedia flash movies would it?

Re:audio/video out of sync? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8952653)

No, but if it was a Windows machine, then it would ... um ... hmmm ... [insert Blue Screen of Death joke here]

+5, Funny

maybe... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8952599)

the lag is because the video is being viewed on a Mac.

Audio Delay (4, Insightful)

455 (718431) | about 10 years ago | (#8952603)

What good is building an audio delay if your sound goes through other components (ie. Big amp)? Wouldn't the sound then still be off? These people should be working to increase the processing technology, not slowing down the audio tech.

booo I say

Re:Audio Delay (1)

Compholio (770966) | about 10 years ago | (#8952650)

It's much cheaper to just build in a little menu that allows people to shift the timing of the audio. Most computer DVD players have features like this built-in, but for a live feed you would have to buffer things in order to do that kind of syncronization.

Re:Audio Delay (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8952706)

Sucks for video games though.

Re:Audio Delay (1)

Merlinium (678576) | about 10 years ago | (#8952819)

thats the point of a configurable Audio Delay, if you run your audio through a Alternate device (Say a Stereo Receiver) then setting the delay for audio forward or backwards to adjust for the alternate routing of your audio. I for one do not see a problem with my setup, but then again I am using a PC as a Multimedia device with Satellite input, that shoots the audio out to a Digital Surround Receiver using Fiber optic output (via SB Audigy2), and my video is fed to a Sanyo Digital Projector via DVI connectors from a ATI 8500DV AIW (for a 107" screen). So my problem is mostly solved because my Video rendering is done onboard the Video card unlike other devices using less intensive Graphics rendering devices.

I want this display (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8952608)

Maybe the seismic charge explosions in the Star Wars EP2 asteroid chase will be in sync with this.

This could be fun. (3, Funny)

dawg ball (773621) | about 10 years ago | (#8952611)

The audio delay should be user configurable. We could turn boring stuff into something that's really funny. Almost as good as playing the old VHS backwards!

ah yeah...that is why I like DLP (1, Flamebait)

the_2nd_coming (444906) | about 10 years ago | (#8952618)

no problem with syncing there.

Re:ah yeah...that is why I like DLP (1)

... James ... (33917) | about 10 years ago | (#8952740)

care to explain?

Intro to DLP (1)

tepples (727027) | about 10 years ago | (#8952830)

Digital Light Processing is based on a micromirror array that turns each colored pixel on and off a few thousand times per second. Such pulse-width modulation responds more quickly to pixel value changes than LCD ever could.

Re:ah yeah...that is why I like DLP (2, Informative)

justinstreufert (459931) | about 10 years ago | (#8952840)

I don't know what kind of DLP you mean, but owners of the Samsung rear projection DLPs are whining daily on AVS Forums about their sync problems. I personally never saw it with mine (I returned it for other reasons).

Justin

but ont he other hand (0, Redundant)

BlueBoxSW.com (745855) | about 10 years ago | (#8952620)

Perhaps if they could get the display lag to equal the audio lag, the problems would cancel each other out!

Something for Sony to try (1)

tepples (727027) | about 10 years ago | (#8952703)

If the TV delays both the picture and the audio, then how would one compensate for the lag if a picture is being generated in real time on the same premises as the set, such as from a PlayStation family game console? Watch Sony introduce NoLagTV(tm) technology, in which video enhancement processing follows the raster, in order to sell more TVs to PS family console owners.

Re:but ont he other hand (1)

niko9 (315647) | about 10 years ago | (#8952746)

+5 Captain obvious! ;)

Just kidding, I'm Rick James bitch, enjoy yourself!

This will hurt video games (5, Insightful)

tepples (727027) | about 10 years ago | (#8952629)

Video games depend on low latency between input (at the gamepad) and output (at the CRT and speakers). Video game systems manufactured for sale in the United States after 2006 will include some sort of digital TV output. These digital TV sets introduce a significant latency into the chain. So what will happen?

Re:This will hurt video games (1)

Naffer (720686) | about 10 years ago | (#8952678)

What will happen? No one will be able to beat Square's "Legend of Dragoon" .... oh wait

Re:This will hurt video games (4, Funny)

zulux (112259) | about 10 years ago | (#8952815)

So what will happen?

It's not a problem! It'll just make Halo play like Myst.

Re:This will hurt video games (3, Interesting)

Jotaigna (749859) | about 10 years ago | (#8952829)

first you introduce audio delay with buffering technology and then you intruduce user input delay using psychotropic technology.

Seriously, the post makes reference to the use of cheap proccessors hence the video delay. By 2006 the expensive processors of today will be cheaper, and eventually cheap enough.

HDTV formats (1, Interesting)

Genjurosan (601032) | about 10 years ago | (#8952634)

So what happens when the input format changes? i.e. Will the equipment freak out when 1080p is sent to it, and then the unit is forced to convert to 720p? Basically, I hope they compensate for the variety of signals out there if they can't fix the problem at the source.

There is an upside (1, Redundant)

flinxmeister (601654) | about 10 years ago | (#8952635)

I watched an old Kung Fu movie on one of these, and the words matched the lips!

Re:There is an upside (2, Funny)

WwWonka (545303) | about 10 years ago | (#8952664)

I watched an old Kung Fu movie on one of these, and the words matched the lips!

...if that wasn't impressive enough, I just watched a "live" Britney Spears concert where the words matched HER lips!

Then again who is really watching her lips while she sings. ;-)

Re:There is an upside (1)

WormholeFiend (674934) | about 10 years ago | (#8952765)

there are those people (not me, some "friends" i know) who use photo and video enhancing software to see if they can catch a glimpse of the other set of lips.

So much for live tv (2, Funny)

BMonger (68213) | about 10 years ago | (#8952639)

So that means that a plasma TV is going to be 60 ms behind my neighbors old CRT TV? No thanks. I need my reality TV as it comes, not later than my friends...

I have one of these lip-sync delay products... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8952640)

...and it did nothing to fix What's up, Tiger Lily? Guess I'll have to wait for version 2.

noticeable delay? (1)

Fortun L'Escrot (750434) | about 10 years ago | (#8952649)

how is it possible for a manufacturer to make a product and sell it when it is such a fundamental problem? what kind of quality standards are these manufacturers catering to? is it cheaper to produce and sell buggy hardware than it is to develop quality hardware and produce and sell it?

Re:noticeable delay? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8952786)

is it cheaper to produce and sell buggy hardware than it is to develop quality hardware and produce and sell it?

Duh.

Blah blah I don't have a TV blah blah blah (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8952652)

Tv, or the boob tube or electric baby sitter, is a waste of time. You should get rid of it like I did. Me, Mr Cool Hip Dude. Yep, the one without the TV. Did I mention I don't own a TV? Well, let me tell you all about the superiority of my ways and the inferiority of everyone else. Here goes....

DLP TVs (1)

musikit (716987) | about 10 years ago | (#8952655)

sorry for not being up on my TV technologies but i was planning on gettitng a DLP TV soon and was wondering if they were effected?

is there a way i can test in the store?

Bush and Press Conferences (-1, Troll)

The Ape With No Name (213531) | about 10 years ago | (#8952660)

Shit, that explains why he looked like such an idiot the other night during his press conference. Now that I know about this liberal plot to use their foreign contributors (and godless union labor) to build TVs in order to corrupt his holy message, I'm going to vote for him! I can't imagine I could be duped like that! I always knew he was telling the truth about everything. I mean, him and Mel Gibson on the planet at the same time? It must be a sign from God. I'm going to sell this TV and get an American-made one -- uh wait -- can I do that?

just put your speakers 60 feet away (4, Funny)

coult (200316) | about 10 years ago | (#8952663)

But, there is the delay from the sound traveling from the speaker to your ear (roughly 1 millisecond per foot of distance traveled). So one solution is simply to put the speakers about 60 feet away.

Re:just put your speakers 60 feet away (-1, Troll)

KingOfBLASH (620432) | about 10 years ago | (#8952694)

That sort of solution is very impracticle to say the least. And, your post isn't funny, so I assume you're either serious, or that was a failed attempt at humour.

Re:just put your speakers 60 feet away (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8952766)

I thought it was funny.

Re:just put your speakers 60 feet away (1)

DaHat (247651) | about 10 years ago | (#8952700)

My living room isn't that big! Not that it matters much as my TV almost 25 years old.

Analog Signal Buffering (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8952689)

Is it even possible to do analog signal buffering, or will the signal be converted to digital to buffer it for a few milliseconds and then back to analog?

I suppose it is possible to do analog signal buffering now that I think about it. Some guitar AMPs have a delay feture, which I'm sure is all analog.

Workaround exists! (5, Funny)

3Suns (250606) | about 10 years ago | (#8952699)

There's no reason to build expensive circuitry to correct the problem. You can use the laws of nature to resynch your video!

For a video lag of 60 milliseconds, you only need to step back 20.4174 meters from your TV before the speed of sound will correct the synchronization problem.

The Neurochemical Fix (5, Funny)

Scott Baio (549373) | about 10 years ago | (#8952702)

I find that if I get ever so slightly drunk, the delay in my mental processing of the auditory information compensates nicely.

Buffering...... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8952715)


Buffering....

Buffering....

Buffering....

First Post!

Re:Buffering...... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8952791)

Buffering....

Buffering....

Buffering....

YOU FAIL IT!

Thanks! I was about to return those movies (1)

AtariAmarok (451306) | about 10 years ago | (#8952720)

Thanks for the news! I was about to return all those old Toho Studio "Godzilla" movies I bought for my new TV because none of the words matched the lip-movements. Now I know why!

Lip sync? (1)

Earlybird (56426) | about 10 years ago | (#8952728)

Of course, to talk about lip sync -- which is about matching audio to the movement of human lips, or matching the movement of lips to audio -- is misleading. This article is about video that is already lip-synced, but which suffers from a delay inherent in the viewing mechanism.

The problem applies equally well to any other kind of video/audio synchronization that when out of whack will appear unnerving to the viewer; for example, gunshots; car explosions; doors slamming; the little high-tech bleeps made whenever something appears on a computer screen; the wet slapping sounds of pelvic trusts against sweaty, naked female hind parts; etc.

Sucks for PCs, and on input too (2, Interesting)

dbrower (114953) | about 10 years ago | (#8952730)

None of the packages I've seen for capture have anything to calibrate and shift the input chain for variable delay between sound and video encoding. It's a problem things like MythTV might profitably spend some time thinking about. Think about why there are clapboards when shooting film.

-dB

Acculumating delays. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8952739)

I already get annoyed by lipsync problems from broadcasts on digital cable tv, from delays introduced by the production studios employing special effects on the video, coding and decoding delays on the settop box and now tv. Nice.

pr0n! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8952745)

What this means to most slashdot users:

The sexual moans will be a half-second or so off.

I ran into that... (4, Interesting)

JediTrainer (314273) | about 10 years ago | (#8952751)

...or at least my future father-in-law did. My fiancee's parents recently bought a very nice Samsung HDTV system which had this problem. The audio was way out of synch with the video, and it was quite noticeable at times.

Samsung ended up sending someone to the house, and replacing a board in the TV with a newer model, and that seemed to fix the problem.

I don't understand why they couldn't have anticipated this problem before they shipped the TVs, though. Isn't that what QA is for?

I dropped out b4 I got the EE degree but (1)

robin147 (708285) | about 10 years ago | (#8952768)

It would seem to me that its not compensation, but good design to build a tv set where the video and audio are in synch.
Seems more like the somebody's out to lunch if they build a box that can't get it right.
The solution might be for the managers at BestBuy, CircuitCity and so on to send them back when the set up a demo unit and see/hear that it's all f''ked up

This happens on my TV Tuner card as well... (1)

puppetman (131489) | about 10 years ago | (#8952769)

A cheap ATI TV Wonder VE (Value Edition) - mono sound, and the tv gets out of sync.

I only use it for watching hockey [www.cbc.ca] , so it doesn't really matter.

The weird thing is that the tv card just passes the audio through to the sound card (a built-in on the MB).

I thought my TV was bad too.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#8952770)

when I turned on the TV and saw Britney Spears in concert. But then I realized it wasn't my TV, she's just really bad at lip syncing.

Dial in delay to the receivers (2, Informative)

flyingace (162593) | about 10 years ago | (#8952782)

Some receivers like the Denon 3802 and upwards, are aware of these issues. They allow you to dial in delay so that you can sync with TV.

Just my 2 cents ...

Well, you see, these displays are SO BIG... (4, Funny)

dpbsmith (263124) | about 10 years ago | (#8952792)

...you can just view them from sixty feet away and the video delay will exactly compensate for the speed-of-sound delay. No problem.

And if you can afford one, you probably have a living room that big.

Sure it's the display device? (3, Interesting)

... James ... (33917) | about 10 years ago | (#8952799)

I frequently see audio delays on HDTV feeds being displayed on my DLP projector. Change the channel (to another station broadcasting at the same resolution), and the problem goes away.

It's either my crappy Scientific Atlanta HDTV receiver or the feed itself.

I really have doubts about this article.

Excuses, excuses (3, Funny)

JediTrainer (314273) | about 10 years ago | (#8952802)

Any bets that they're just trying to build in delays to prevent more 'wardrobe malfunction' fiascos?

My hunch is that they delayed the video on purpose, but forgot to touch the audio.

:)

Doesn't effect external audio.. (1)

-tji (139690) | about 10 years ago | (#8952816)

Beyond the great video resolution of HDTV, it also supports Dolby Digital 5.1 surround sound. So, most people use their stereo receiver for the audio from HDTV broadcasts.

I have a macro set up on my remote, so when I turn the TV on, it automatically turns my receiver on & switches to the right input. I haven't used the speakers in my TV in 3 years, so I'm not sure if it has a lip sync problem or not (probably not, because it supports all the ATSC formats natively.. it doesn't need to do the extra processing which apparently causes the problem).
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