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sengan posted more than 15 years ago | from the who's-been-a-naughty-boy? dept.

Microsoft 183

shaldannon writes "This morning on National Public Radio there was a story about the ongoing Justice department case against Microsoft. Yesterday Justice Department attorney David Boies challenged Microsoft's Windows licensing policies, particulary the "verbal contracts" not to include Netscape on the desktop. He questioned a Mr. Rose of Compaq on this subject. Mr. Rose tried to distance himself from Microsoft by claiming that he'd never had close dealings with the company or Mr. Gates. Attorney Boies produced an email in which Bill Gates specifically thanks Mr. Rose for his assistance to Microsoft on the DoJ case. Boies then dropped a bombshell announcement: Compaq had been having secret negotiations with BeOS to do some development for them. At the same time, Compaq sent representatives to Microsoft for their blessing on the arrangement. Microsoft killed the deal. Compaq's attorney jumped to his feet, emotionally denying the charge and accusing David Boies of 'cheap courtroom tactics.' Attorney Boies then produced evidence from BeOS substantiating his announcement." ZD-net and PC-Week both also carry the story. Thanks to Rick Irvine (a Furious Be User) and BitMan. In related news,Matthew Tebbens tells us that CNN is reporting that Windows 2000 will need apps to be rebuilt or even rewritten to be compliant (whatever that means). Update: 02/19 06:02 by S : And to top the cake, Microsoft has been charged with monopoly pricing in a California Class Action suit. Thanks Dwight Johnson. Update: 02/20 12:57 by S : More on the Be Story: Alledgedly, Be is making an embedded OS that would have better media capabilities than WinCE for information appliances.

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aren't you sick of this trial??? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2009989)

/. seems has nothing to talk about but chew again and again this MS stuff. No wonder Linus doesn't read it, you'd better go coding or something useful. Or at least discuss something that you won't forget next day.


p.s. Don't tell me about spell&grammar, 'cuz if you do, then you got really no decent comment.

Grammar (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2009990)

p.s. Don't tell me about spell&grammar, 'cuz if you do, then you got really no decent comment.

Isn't it ironic that Linux users think that everybody should become computer experts, but they refuse to even try to become capable with their own language?

aren't you sick of this trial??? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2009991)

ok, your syntax sucks

MS situation worse than ever (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2009992)

Now it can only get better for our beloved Great Satan ;-) Windows 2000 is such a high pile of trash that it's collapsing every other moment, in court they have no luck, only sales-wise they are the big winners. But that doesn't matter. Or does it?

Windows 2000 will need apps to be rebuilt or even (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2009993)

Am I wrong, or is the article simply saying that to take advantage of *new* features in W2000, existing apps would have to be changed or rewritten? What is so surprising about that? It doesn't mean that old apps won't run, just that they won't magically start using new features.

I smell FUD.

What, as if it were solely for my entertainment? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2009994)

OJ, Clinton, Microsoft.
What do these trials have in common?

People who were/are 'sick of' these trials must
believe somehow that they are staged for
entertainment purposes only.

Kids, there are important things happening here.
The news isn't going to stop being newsworthy
just because you're bored with it!

- Chris

Be talking to Comapq about What? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2009995)

Whats interesting is just what were Be & Compaq talking about under this NDA? It seems that they weren't just talking about Compaq shipping boxes with BeOS on them, but about Be developing some sort of derivative OS for... what exactly? It seems unlikely that it would be for a Palm Pilot type device, my guess is that it might some sort of "Web Pad" type device. Such a device running BeOS makes alot of sense to me, and would be IMO VERY cool.


Grammar (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2009996)


1. I like Linux, but I am not Linux user.
2. English is not my native language, and this is only reason why I dismiss any comments about my grammar/spellings (sorry but Netscape doesn't do automatic spell check in forms, I hope MS will do that in IE5, or 6).
3. I am not expert in computers, although it's my hobby since 1989.

No offence to those who speak English natively, I actually generally appreciate any comments about my English, BUT when I got only this type of comments and nothing else, then it does sound for me as other parties have nothing to say ;)


same -AC

Keep applying the pressure (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2009997)

Keep applying the pressure!

Already been proven (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2009998)

If it doesn't fit, you must acquit. To bad Cochrane is not working this case. It would look good on his resume; defended OJ and Microsoft.

This account of Beos/Compaq/MSFT issue is not true (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2009999)

Boies then dropped a bombshell announcement: Compaq had been having secret negotiations with BeOS to do some development for them. At the same time, Compaq sent representatives to Microsoft for their blessing on the arrangement. Microsoft killed the deal. Compaq's attorney jumped to his feet, emotionally denying the charge and accusing David Boies of 'cheap courtroom tactics.' Attorney Boies then produced evidence from BeOS substantiating his announcement."
Having read the entire transcript from yesterday's proceedings, I can say that the above account is not true.

You know, when you see something that muddles the facts so badly, it's hard to even know how to set the record straight, but here's a start.

What Boies introduced was a 'good faith' representation to the court that Compaq had disclosed information that had been given to them by Be under non-disclosure agreement. The disclosure was to Microsoft. No other details

This is clearly a serious issue, but nothing was introduced that came close to indicating in any way that MSFT had 'killed the deal'

If you're interested, you can pick up a copy of the transcript at the MSFT site (*gasp* this guy must be Micro$oft flak for even *reading* the actual primary source materials -- isn't it just more efficient to listen to each other's rumours?)

Language (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2010000)

Which language you use is irrelevant. It's proper usage of your languange (whatever that may be) that matters.

Remember, the readers are the compilers, and we don't like errors any more than gcc does. :-)

Windows 2000 itself needs to be rebuilt (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2010001)

Did anyone read the business week article?

NT is up to 30,000,000 lines of code!!! Any microsoft are happy that they recently had a day where they actually fixed more bugs than they created new ones! Whoopee!

Even if they do manage to ever finish and debug it, it's so bloated that it's bound to be slower than NT 4.0...which Linux is alredy killing due to performance and stability!

You see, it isn't always true if it's in the paper (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2010002)

They also said this:

"Are you aware that Compaq took that information, and, in violation of its
nondisclosure agreement, transmitted it to Microsoft?" Boies asked Rose as he
offered a court-sealed document to support the charge.

But the court transcript says:
6 IN 1998?


.... 14 lines cut for brevity, but the original is at ts/feb99/0218b.doc






So, what's in USA Today is incorrect. Boies was not producing a document to support
his statement. It's still a very serious charge (and quite likely true), but USA Today
(and others) have simply horked the fundamental fact of the matter.

Microsoft Microsoft Microsoft (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2010003)

Anybody else tired of abusing MS engineers?

I don't like MS's business or marketing tactics at all. And if the courts find that they broke the rules - they should be punished (or the rules should be changed).

Sure some of their apps have bugs and interfaces aren't always consistant but their products are under severe pressure (probably from all that marketing :).

I always feel like the coders don't get a fair shake here. I'm sure those guys are overworked zombies. And they're work tends to catch the all of the anger which the MS execs produce. Sure there are bugs and even some bad ones. I'd guess this is more a product of their development model rather than their potential.

This account of Beos/Compaq/MSFT issue is not true (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2010004)

Jesus H. Christ.

Get over your paranoid delusions already. Sure, Microsoft might own a monopoly, but to suggest that MS has the audacity to doctor the court transcripts from their DoJ procedings is simply out-of-line; regardless of the fact that they might be available on their own web server.

This kind of misrepresentation is SlashDot at its worst.

This account of Beos/Compaq/MSFT issue is not true (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2010005)


This is the AC who posted the comment to which you are responding.

I don't trust it in the same way that I am a critical consumer of any information (hence my previous comment).

However, I do give it the weight that it deserves: that is, to me, the likelihood that MSFT would forge a transcript and post it on their web site seems highly remote.

Add to that the fact that reading these transcripts is often a far more damaging display of the evasiveness of MSFT witnesses than any bungled newspaper account could be ... well, I think I am content to take the transcripts at face value (i.e., bona fide).

Grammar (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2010006)

Assuming we all speak english...

I invented my own speaking language. At times it may resemble english, but truth be told, I am speaking 100% Anonycowian. Any differences which may appear to be spelling errors to you are in fact the correct spelling in Anonycowian.

Please stop bashing my language.

Trolls, Lamers, and Flamers please ignore! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2010007)

I agree also. And Microsoft isn't the only party that made the computer industry what it is today, although it IS the principal party. I mean, I was working with WordPerfect 5.1 for the longest time. But when MSWord 5 came out around the same time WP6.0 came out, well there's just no comparison.

WordPerfect killed itself with 6.0 IMO.

For me, MS products are also "good enough". There are still many MANY annoyances. Times where I'd be surfing a site, and IE would crash, causing Explorer to crash, causing me to reboot. Other times where running FFVII with some documents open in the back ground cause game instability.

but if you are willing to sit through the annoyances and just reboot, HOME USE is "good enough". Obviously the same thing can't happen in an IT workplace, so I've never defended MS THAT much.

The thing about having to recomplie/rewrite apps just sucks though. I was able to install and run win3.x programs just fine on Win95. Same with Win95 -> Win98, although there's less distinction there. But now they are saying entire apps cannot RUN in Win2000, which basically is forcing consumers to go out and buy a completely new software library, well that just sucks.

Good thing the class action suit came along.

Notice the Zdnet article slighly mentioned the futility of returning the OS? They did everything except saying the word "Microsoft tax" or "Refund Day". But the party representing the "class" definitely sounded like a pioneer in trying to return MS products.

wonder if this was the end product of the MS refund day. . . ?

typical /. jumping to (anti-MS) conclusions... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2010008)

did anyone read any of the articles linked?

- sure you have to rewrite you app to take advantage of new features... it's been like that since the dawn of computing time! old apps still work

- where the fsck does it say that MSFT killed a compaq/Be deal in that article?

it's fine to hate MS but pls don't enter a reality-distortion field when you do it.

Microsoft Microsoft Microsoft (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2010009)

I don't know. I don't question the intelligence and/or skill of those working at Microsoft (despite shoddy products, I don't attribute it to the development team, but to marketing and sales), but I do question the morals. How could somebody consistently work for a company like Microsoft? Writing huge hacks, workarounds, and unnecessary crap just because their superiors say that it's necessary for the product to sell. I've done that before (although not for long), and I really really don't understand people who can put up with it, and furthermore, while working for a drain on the industry like Microsoft.


Michael Chisari

reason not to use windows - your privacy (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2010010)

do you think m$ is only out to harm its competitors? od you think they have any moral or ethical limits?

Im sure there tons of burried hooks in this stupid OS that reports back to the mothership on my wearbouts and activities

at least with linux, i can feel somewhat confident that NO m$ code is in it to spy on me

call me paranoid - but we are closely approaching the age where we are all monitor by the applications we interact with

Microsoft Microsoft Microsoft (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2010011)

I don't think many (I didn't say ALL) of the posts are actually going after "the engineers" at MS..

We're bashing the company here, because of shoddy business practices, because they are on trial with the DoJ, etc..

I doubt that the engineers are held there under gunpoint, it's probably an alright place to work. HOWEVER, it comes with the job.. if you don't like the company you work for, or the fact that some of us just *do* *not* *like* MS, then you can go find another job where you will be more comfortable. Simple as that.

Trolls, Lamers, and Flamers please ignore! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2010012)

2 counterpoints...

1. For every M$ app or OS I've used, no matter how useful or 'good enough', I have always found something which works better (there is a lot of good shareware out there). I have never been completely (or even mostly) satisfied with an M$ product.

2. For me, computers are my work and often my recreation. I don't want to be frustrated with my computer. I want to enjoy using it and usually I do, if I'm not running a M$ product. Sometimes they come out with something new with lots of improvements (on paper) and I'll give it a whirl (after all, I have to use windows at work anyway). Sometimes I like things that they have done better than anyone else, but ever single time to date, there have been enough annoying 'features' that I switch to something else. Thus, I currently use no M$ products, except what I am required to do at work (it sucks, but I have to pay bills).


What's the big deal ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2010013)

One problem with your argument is that both Microsoft and Compaq (and, if this allegation is true, I consider BOTH accountable) are themselves proponents of the intellectual property paradigm. That is, they would both be extremely upset if someone did this to them; upset to the point of legal action. Sure, I think it's a good idea in general for source code to be freely available. But I think that I'm justified in criticizing Microsoft and Compaq if they illegally shared Be's code, not because I'm against the sharing of code, but because THEY are.

This is, IMHO, where the hypocrisy lies in this situation.

- posting anonymously because I forgot who I am

Nope. I hope (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2010014)

MS gets its hard 'cause they dicked me over wrt to java development, and because vc++ doesn't work as advertised. And because I gotta buy all minds of their crappy products.

Network effect is what makes me hate Windows (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2010015)

Y'see, if people could just choose an operating system, and use it, with absolutely no effect on me or my workplace, I really wouldn't give a damn about the whole issue. But it doesn't work that way.

Just in the last 2 hours, I encountered the following problems:

* We use Word 6 at work. A customer sent us a bunch of critical documents written in a later version of Word. In order to read those documents, we will have to upgrade.

* The secretary is using Frontpage to modify
our web site. FrontPage likes to gratuitously
scramble the case of filenames. This works fine
IF you are using an NT web server, but under Unix, everything on her web pages broke. I had to write a script to fix the cases of everything.

In summary: buying Microsoft products has an effect on the world around you; it forces other people to use Windows. So yes, it does matter to me if you choose Windows to generate business documents. 'Cause at some point I will have to deal with you, and I will probably be forced to upgrade to the latest M$ bloatware to view your stuff.

Grammar (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2010016)


Not good enough (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2010017)

I was satisfied before I knew I could get more.

Once I had a real script language, several interpreted languages, many compiled languages, actual multi-tasking, high-reliability and great flexibility for free at home I am dissatisfied with my work PC.

Trolls, Lamers, and Flamers please ignore! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2010018)

MS solutions work, they've made Bill a fortune.

0. You'd have been better suited by a MAC. Fruity academics seem to love them.

1. Thats nice.

2. IIS is a piss poor webserver, and Dell has their head entirely up the MS-Rectum.

You are a tool, and MS is 80% fad. Have a nice day.


Bill Gates' one good accomplishment (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2010019)


If it weren't for the lemmings of the world, computer geeks would get the economy-of-scale price breaks, and computers wouldn't be as fast or cheap.


Trolls, Lamers, and Flamers please ignore! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2010020)

#1>Your dissertation is on NT? NTFS or FAT? If NTFS then I hope to God it never takes a dive or you're F*%!ed...

#2> I work for Dell's Largest Lease Customer (Nortel). I'm accessing things on their site all the time. sure it's relatively stabe, but have you ever bothered to notice how FREAKING SLOW their website is? I am in a position to notice...

--MCP and coincadently a M$ hate-a...

Good Enough (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2010021)

Plunk down your own $200 for a 300a, bx'pro' mb, 64mb pc100 mem for your work pc & bypass the stress/annoyance. I suppose when one get's to that point, you know it's NOT "good enough":)

MS gets its innovations from Compaq (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2010022)

Why should Microsoft bother developing anything, just look at all the solid DEC technologies that Compaq has given to Microsoft. Compaq doesn't even bother to advertise it's vastly superiour products and instead tries to push Windows NT down the throats of customers that want to remain with OpenVMS. Compaq sold its soul to Microsoft a long time ago, they might as well be considered MS's hardware branch.

Dead horse... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2010023)

I found the joke told by Judge Jackson to be
pretty funny. I wonder if it was a message
to the Microsoft legal team...

"The code of tribal wisdom says that when you
discover you are riding a dead horse, the best
strategy is to dismount. In law firms, we
often try other strategies with dead horses,
including the following: buying a stronger whip;
changing riders; saying things like 'this is the
way we have always ridden this horse'; appointing
a committee to study the horse; arranging to
visit other firms to see how they ride dead
horses; increasing the standards to ride dead
horses; declaring that the horse is better,
faster and cheaper dead; and finally,
harnessing several dead horses together for
increased speed."


Oh for crying out loud! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#2010024)

I am not the AC that you replied too. I just wanted to point out the silliness of spelling and grammar thread wars. Seriously, if people carefully checked every single little thing they typed, they'd be spending way too much time posting. Since many of us are already probably spending too much time posting anyway...
The worst thing about these threads is that almost everyone who posts to nit-pick about someone else's spelling and grammar has a spelling or grammar error in their post. Usually, it's spelling 'grammar' as 'grammer'. Then, of course, someone points out the error, and makes an error of their own. These sort of things always seem to suggest to me that the posters think that when they make mistakes, it's a random accident, but when others make them, it's a deep flaw. Obviously, the argument can go on for a long time.
I'm sure I've made a few mistakes in typing this. I do care about not letting my language skills degrade, but I also feel that I have a fairly good idea of just how important this conversation is. So, I haven't really bothered to check. In any case, since I am obligated by tradition to do so, I have to tell you that you left out the period at the end of your post.

wide brush there. (1)

DunbarTheInept (764) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010063)

Isn't it annoying that people like you try to paint all linux users with one broad brush? Since when are the opinions of this one antigrammarian representative of the whole. He's already shown that his opinions on "The Trial" are different, so why should the differences stop there?

Pretending that all people in a group are identical is the cornerstone of predjudice.

English has stupid rules. (1)

DunbarTheInept (764) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010064)

Oh one small point - don't forget that some people who eschew proper English rules do it quite on purpose, not out of ignorance. For example, the English rules for quoting things are illogical. It tells you to put punctuation inside the quotes when it's not a part of what the person being quoted said, as in this sentence:
Did bob really say, "hello?"
IMO, that's plain wrong, since the question mark is an artifact of the sentence surrounding the quote, not a part of what was quoted itself, but it is the right way according to the rules.

Because of this some programmer types deliberately break English rules when they don't make sense.

Another example is the silly notion that some combinations of prefixes and bases are "real" words, and others are not. For example, why is "ingratitude" a word, but "ungratitude" is not? It's totally arbitrary.

I feel sorry for those people who have to try to write software to parse English. It must be quite painful.

"Good Enough" is colored by your experiences. (1)

DunbarTheInept (764) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010065)

The problem with judging whether or not something is "good enough" is that everything you are used to always seems "good enough". People once thought typewriters were "good enough". People once thought 640Kb was "good enough". If you've never tried anything better, then you never know what's missing.

(Yes, Windows is plenty good enough in most people's opinions, but since those opinions have been shaped by years of using Windows, it's hardly a meaningful observation.)

TGIF (1)

mackga (990) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010067)

I bet a whole bunch of ms folks are glad the weekend is upon us. What a way to end the week, eh?

I know it's impolite to laugh at the misfortunes of others, but in this case, I could care.)

CA Class action a result of Windows refund day? (1)

RobotSlave (1780) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010074)

It isn't stated explicitly, but it looks to me as though the California class action suit was filed after Microsoft/Dell/Compaq/etc. failed to provide refunds on the 15th.

This would make for a better story, but is there any basis in fact?

"Microsoft's Refusal to Provide Refunds Backfires" sure is a nice headline...

Chase the Dream (1)

Fastjack (2009) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010075)

As Cringley pointed out, we really need to forget Microsoft and chase the dream. When it comes right down to it, the dream is all that separates the hackers from the coders...

Linux and OSS started growing because the hackers did what they wanted, when they wanted, and with an excellence born of love. Watch out that you don't trade in who you are for something as shallow as "winning" against some "great evil", or one day you'll wake up and find that you're really no better than what you replaced.

Keep on hacking.

Sooner or later, apps always have to be rebuilt (1)

sphealey (2855) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010076)

Not defending M$ or Win2000 here, but if systems undergo significant change sooner or later applications have to be rebuilt. It isn't reasonable to condemn an OS for lack of progress (e.g. Win95 built on a DOS foundation), then also condemn the new system (Win2000, assuming it ever sees the light of day) for making changes which break compatibility with the old system. Upward compatibility is nice, but if the price of significant progress is recompiling/recoding, soorner or later that's the way it will have to be.


Oxymoron (1)

dattaway (3088) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010077)

>Anybody else tired of abusing MS engineers?

Please do not use MS and engineering in the same sentence. Unless you are describing business tactics.

They don't innovate. They assimilate!

40% of Windows applications do NOT RUN under W2k (1)

edgy (5399) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010089)

Eh, fudsters, 40% of windows applications still don't run under W2k...

At least as far as I know...

Please identify yourself (1)

jsm (5728) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010090)

OK, people, we all know that PR workers from Microsoft do in fact read Slashdot, and try to put a pro-MS spin on things (and anti-ESR sour grapes) while looking like just-your-average-Joe. MS has a long history of pseudo-grassroots media tactics like this.

Now, you (the poster) may or may not be one of those "M$ flaks", but there's little way to know if you don't identify yourself. Don't blame us for being justifiably suspicious.

And I'd prefer a transcript source other than Microsoft-- I hardly consider them an unbiased source. Or honest-- they have a history of altering court evidence and other documents.

(signing my name in case login doesn't work through this experimental proxy)

Hi. My name's Leo, and I like Word. ("Hi, Leo.") (1)

ewhac (5844) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010096)

I regret to admit that I like Microsoft Word (after you turn off all the idiot "wizards" and "helpers" and that fscking paperclip!). The last version of Word I really liked was Word 5.1a for the Mac.

Word is, of course, shoddy, but it's damn useful.

I have not tried any of the available office software for Linux. I tried LyX about two years ago, but found it a bit too primitive. So I do most of my writing in (brace yourself) 'vi'. If Word were to become available for Linux, I would probably buy it.

Disclaimer: I am an employee of Be, Inc.


Death to the Moderates! (1)

Building (6295) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010097)

We tend not to bother reading the comments, actually...

A-Ha!! (1)

MrDarkguy (6594) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010098)

(Doing the happy dance)

Yipee! Time to start shorting Microsoft stock. Ok...maybe not, but it's a happy thought. =)

Good Enough (1)

Bilbo (7015) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010100)

My son plays games on an old Win95 box I have at home. He'd like a faster processor (AMD5x86 133 == P75), but he doesn't care if it crashes. Windows is "good enough" for him.

My wife runs Juno, writes letters with MS Word 6 and makes greeting cards with some other package. She gets upset if it crashes and she loses work. In general, Win95 is "good enough" for her, but I think she'd appreciate something that didn't lock up so often. (It's a good thing she has a couple of computer experts in the house to bail her out every time Windows barfs.)

I'm stuck at work with a P166 with 64Meg RAM, running NT. I can't find UML modeling apps that run under Linux, so I have to use NT. IT'S A PIECE OF CRAP. I'm constantly waiting for it to respond, or rebooting, or screaming at it, or tearing out my hair.

It all depends on what you're doing, and how hard you push the OS. NT probably runs "good enough" on a 200MHz with 96Meg, but I could probably build a real kick-ass server running Linux on a box like that.

Contributing? (1)

Bilbo (7015) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010101)

There's more to contributing to Linux than writing kernel code. I just passed out 50 copies of the RH5.2 CD the other day where I work, along with boot floppies and a one page "Getting Started" sheet. (We were having an employee "Trade Show" at one of our quarterly meetings.) I don't know if that makes me a "lead Linux type", but it helps make more people aware of the alternatives to MS.

Like they say, if you don't like the articles, then don't whine about having to read them.

(BTW, how does flaming MS help MS???)

I don't get it ... (1)

Bilbo (7015) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010102)

I think the previous poster was referring to Mr. Rose's testimony, or that of the various Microsoft representatives - i.e., lieing through their teeth again and again. The botched/faked videotape is another example.

Seems like the judge just keeps handing out more rope for MS to hang itself with...

sloppy again (1)

Urban Dragon (8053) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010106)

What it says in the articles is that Compaq showed some proprietary information that was under NDA to microsoft. Not that microsoft squashed it.

Read. Comprehend. Then Report.

I got really no decent comment (1)

zosima (8652) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010109)

Look, I had too. . . Some people are actually interested in the case. If you aren't interested in the story, don't follow the link. Why would you spend the time to complain about something you feel is a waste of time? Let those of us who want to read the news read the news, and do so without someone who can't articulate his/her thoughts attempt insulting us.

Catch-22 (1)

dgenr8 (9462) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010114)

Follow the chain of events, and you will see that the Be information released in court today is a direct result of Microsoft recently claiming in the same court that Be is a viable competitor to Windows. That claim pissed off Be to the extent that they announced a few days ago that they might "join" the case. Now it's obvious why.

The gall... using your monopoly power to shut a competitor out of the market, then holding them up as an example of "competition"... is utterly unbelievable. And ultimately unsustainable. Bullshit and duplicity just don't work the same under cross-examination.

Abusing MS engineers (1)

Duke of URL (10219) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010115)

I never tire of abusing engineers, let alone MSoft engineers.

Abusing MS engineers! (1)

Duke of URL (10219) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010116)

I never tire of abusing engineers, let alone MSoft engineers!

I don't get it ... (1)

deeny (10239) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010117)

Wow, you newgrouped one of my fave newsgroups. We're not worthy!

_Deirdre (also a BeOS user)

Hi. My name's Leo, and I like Word. ("Hi, Leo.") (1)

deeny (10239) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010118)

You're right. Word 5.1 for Mac was the last, best version. But what the fsck did Word 4 (also Mac) need with a fscking screen saver?

As for office software, I use WordPerfect. I actually think I prefer 7 to 8 but I'm using 8.

I will never again *buy* a MS product of any flavor, but I will cheerfully continue to use my ancient copies of Word and Excel on the Mac until I find something I want to convert all those files to (and until I have enough accrued vacation time to do so).

_Deirdre (Linux, BeOS, MacOS and MacOS X Server user)

Class action suit (1)

Knight (10458) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010120)

Does anyone know if it was the SVLUG that filed that Class action suit in CA?

Recompile FUD (1)

Jello (11089) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010121)

Have you ever ran a old window 3.1 app on win95, It's the same concept. With the win 3.1 apps you can't use long file names, fancy dialog boxes and stuff like that. There's not much point in upgrading all your severs and such to Win2k if your not going to use apps that take advantage of all the new bloat.

Be talking to Comapq about What? (1)

shacker (11455) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010122)

I spoke at length last night to Be's VP of Business Development, and untrenched a lot of answers to this and other questions. A full analysis/editorial can be found at []

Did Compaq Convey Be's Code to the Gates of Hell? (1)

Jon Palmer (12614) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010125)

It gets worse. I think it was on the CNN business news last night that I saw a spokesman for Be say that he was concerned that Compaq might have violated their NDA and shown some of Be's code to Microshaft. (I know; the people who disagree with the idea of intellectual property will think this is OK).

The problem with Microsoft (1)

Kismet (13199) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010126)

I'm a Linux fan, but I use Windows, too. I don't think that there is anything fundamentally wrong with Windows as an operating system. I think that most OSes like Be and Linux have an intrinsic advantage in that they do not build on a hoarde of old code and complexity. This makes them world class Operating Systems.

Microsoft does have an advantage in consumer product availability and overall convenience and ease of use for the average computer user. Ten years ago, your average computer user was far more technical than the computer users of today. A "geek" can't be as happy with Microsoft's OS because he or she doesn't have as much freedom anymore to tweek and program. Windows is targeted to the computer illiterate, and this offends a lot of technically oriented people.

My problem with Microsoft is their marketing. I am comfortable that they have a good product, but I don't like the way they have to own everything. This is the fundamental difference between Windows and Linux; Linux is free, Windows is not. Both are fine operating systems.

I don't get it ... (1)

raistlinne (13725) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010127)

I think that the previous poster wasn't reffering to Br. Boies, but rather to Microsoft. The fact that Microsoft can get away with all of their blatant lying (or at least what appears to be blatant lying) is really quite amazing.

Trolls, Lamers, and Flamers please ignore! (1)

raistlinne (13725) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010128)

> Of course, MS solutions have worked, and better
> than just 'good enough'.
Yes, and miracles happen, too. Pointing out the exception doesn't do much more than prove that Microsoft products haven't been magically cursed.

> 0. My dissertation research is done entirely on
> NT. I tried Linux, but found myseld spending way
> too much time doing system administration tasks
> and not enough time doing actually research.
What system administration were you doing? What was your dissertation? Once you get a linux box set up, it runs (assuming that you have a large enough disk to hold your system logs and user quotas, etc.). I'm in charge of the web server for the entire college of liberal arts and sciences here at alfred (which houses the search engine for the whole scool). It's been up for 59 days (power went down 59 days ago), and I've had to do precisely 1 administrative exercise that wasn't adding a user account or resetting a password. I had to restart apache because we're using an ancient version of apache due to a miniscule hard drive and not enough space to compile and install the new apache. This box is doing dynamic content, ftp, and mail. Practically 0 administration that isn't human necessary (setting up and modifying accounts, etc.). I've never had a Linux box that I had to administer in the sense of keep it up, only fine tune to what I want. I've never really had to do that with NT because, whenever I did anything with NT, there was no fine tuning to be done. You can occasionally change a thing or two, but otherwise it's fairly strict bondage on that beast. If something doesn't work, you're @#$@#'d. You want to do something non-standard, you have to start writing programs with expensive tools. Don't forget my question: what administration did you constantly have to do?

> 1. I work for an R&D govt contractor doing
> simulation and modeling, software development,
> and other scientific endeavors. All of our
> deliverables, from programs to reports, are done
> on NT. Our customers are very happy.
Who are you customers? The gov't is fairly vague. Which government? What are you simulating? What are you modeling? What software are you developing? What other scientific endevors? What boxes that NT ran on were capable of doing intense calculations? The only high end hardware that NT runs on are Alpha boxes. That isn't that significant a fraction of high end hardware.

> 2. Dell runs there WWW site on NT.
Wow. Microsoft runs Hotmail on Solaris and BSD. What hardware does Dell run its website on? If the answer is 200-500% more hardware than would reasonably be required like, that isn't saying much about NT past the fact that it isn't completely unworkable.

> I think the current antiMS sentiment is 80% fad.
> Remember, computers are not sentient. They are a
> tool. Use whatever helps you get the job done.
Maybe the current antiMS sentiment is 80% fad. Maybe not. It's almost impossible to actually determine do to the vagueness of what you mean. If you're talking about the total population, then 80% of every populational sentiment is fad. I've yet to hear one person able to defend microsoft other than based on hardware support that someone else wrote (i.e. drivers provided by the manufacturer) or applications that run on windows. Neither of which is actually attributable to Windows being anything but dominant.
Actually, that's not quite true. Superior integration often touted. I haven't really dealt with this, so I'm not qualified to say anything about it other than this: I haven't heard about any integrated capabilities that aren't either marginal improvements.
Question: if my program invokes sendmail to send files, does that mean that I have "integrated email capabilities"? What about running wget to fetch a web page, do I have "integrated email and web functionality?" What if I use some of the database libraries to access a database, do I have "totally integrated email, web, and database capabilities"? If the answer is yes, then how is integration anything more than a word for what UNIX has been doing for the last 20 years?

Bill Gates' one good accomplishment (1)

raistlinne (13725) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010129)

What on earth are you talking about? Microsoft was behind everyone on the web developing. It didn't have a TCP/IP stack in win 3.1, that had to be written by trumpet. The web nearly passed them by, they had to play catchup with netscape once they realized that the web mattered. The only concievable thing that Microsoft has done to benefit humanity is making better intel hardware more in deman, just to run the next version of windows at the same level as the last one.

Think about what a friend said to me (heavily paraphrased): "I figure that M$ has set computing back ten years. Here's why. W2k is supposed to be more posix compliant, have more UNIX utilities, and support user quotas. UNIX did all that 10 years ago."

What's the big deal ... (1)

raistlinne (13725) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010130)

People generally advocate abiding by their agreements. Especially when they aren't being broken for a good cause. It's one thing to break an agreement for the greater good, even if it probably shouldn't be done in most cases. It's quite another to do it out of self interest. Anyhow, people aren't really bashing compaq for sharing, they're bashing microsoft for allegedly killing off the deal that they had no right to know about.

most of this is non-news (1)

Frey (14600) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010133)

I read the bit on apps being rewritten for Windows2000 and could only say "duh!" When has any OS ever come out and apps didn't need to be rewritten to take advantage of the new features.

The BeOS bit did not surprise me at all this is very typical of MS.

Here's one (1)

John Zachary (14636) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010134)

I'd describe myself as a moderate. Actually, I'd describe myself as someone who sees computers as a tool and not something to get too emotional over. That doesn't mean they are not my passion, but I've seen so many things come and go (RIP Nextstep) that I'm kinda tired of advocacy.

I do ok with NT and BeOS.

FUD in the wake of antiMS sentiment (1)

John Zachary (14636) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010135)

I think it is a typical bandwagon reaction to all of the antiMS sentiment in the industry. Clearly *every* application will not need to be rewritten or changed.

Personally, I hope that MS has a team of hotshot OS programmers working on the real Windows 2000 version while the official hacked version is being beta'ed as a trial ploy.

Trolls, Lamers, and Flamers please ignore! (1)

John Zachary (14636) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010136)

Of course, MS solutions have worked, and better than just 'good enough'.

0. My dissertation research is done entirely on NT. I tried Linux, but found myseld spending way too much time doing system administration tasks and not enough time doing actually research.

1. I work for an R&D govt contractor doing simulation and modeling, software development, and other scientific endeavors. All of our deliverables, from programs to reports, are done on NT. Our customers are very happy.

2. Dell runs there WWW site on NT.

I think the current antiMS sentiment is 80% fad. Remember, computers are not sentient. They are a tool. Use whatever helps you get the job done.

What's the big deal ... (1)

John Zachary (14636) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010137)

... because it's better to share source code, right? I am being a bit sarcastic because the people who generally advocacte that anything that is not OSS is crap are

1. singularly condeming MS and not giving Compaq their share of the responsibility (supposedly, Compaq entered the deal and then went to MS to get their blessing -- maybe they came bringing gifts?)

2. upset that the code was shared. Isn't this what you people want?

Personally, I believe in intellectual property and the right to keep things you develop secret, if that is your choice. But in a forum which frequently calls on any commercial interest (Sun's Java, BeOS, Windows, Photoshop, etc.) to release their source code at the expense of being trashmouthed, I find some of your reactions pretty hypocritical.

You people need to be on Prozac (1)

John Zachary (14636) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010138)


I wonder when MS magically disappears at some point in the near future (hmm, maybe by an alien ship kept at Roswell to be used by the DoJ) and any memory of MS is wiped from the member's of society by satellites orbiting the Earth, what company are you paranoids going to go after next?

Hi. My name's Leo, and I like Word. ("Hi, Leo.") (1)

John Zachary (14636) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010139)

I like Word, too, but it took a bit to make the transition from LaTeX. Once I figured it out, though, Word makes many things alot easier (except references -- if anyone can recommend a way to handle references in Word like BibTex does, I'll drink a beer to you and your family).

Now, if someone would develop an office assistant with Elizabeth Hurley in a teddy, I might use it.

Trolls, Lamers, and Flamers please ignore! (1)

John Zachary (14636) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010140)

It tells me you are a troll since you ignored the original question.

Here's one (1)

John Zachary (14636) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010141)

Good point.

Jerry Falwell?
Newt Gingrich?
(I've never met them, though)

Trolls, Lamers, and Flamers please ignore! (1)

John Zachary (14636) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010142)

Let's see.

The original question was, paraphrase, have MS products been used such that they were 'good enough'.

I answered affirmatively by providing three examples.

What questions did he answer?

Recompile FUD (1)

kaisyain (15013) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010144)

There was a similar article in ComputerWorld this week claiming that apps would have to be "rebuilt or even rewritten" to run on Win2000. On closer inspection the article says you only need to do that if you want to use new features like ActiveDirectory or COM+.

Well, duh.

First off, I am a little confused why you would have to recompile. Dynamic linking should take care of this. I mean, if you don't change a line of code and recompile then isn't this just relinking?

Secondly, last time I checked I usually had to rewrite code if I wanted to take advantage of the lastest gee whiz stuff. You had to recode mainframe apps if you wanted a spiffy HTML front end didn't you? So why weren't there articles about how AS/400 forced you to recompile or rewrite apps if you wanted to take advantage of the Internet?

Trolls, Lamers, and Flamers please ignore! (1)

yAm (15181) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010145)

I'm pretty much a M$ toady, but, hey, a guy's gotta eat, you know. My company is M$ Solution Provider and we are totally M$. NT4 from stem to stern.

Except for the Linux box under my desk. I couldn't the network management I need to do with four times the machine and twenty times the budget. It's running on a discarded P5/90 w/40M RAM a 1.5G HD. What's it doing? Nocol, mrtg, tools for mapping traffic, and I use it to telnet to all my routers and to hold all of their configs and software images.

And I'm just a newbie. When I grow up, I haven't any idea how far this can go, but I like what I see.

I'm not real crazy about using Linux as a workstation, but then again, I'm still a newbie and I use it at home just to get used to it. I run NT, NW 3.12 and 4.11 Small Business, and Linux. Linux plays with the others really well.

Grow and learn, it certainly is worth the effort.


Good to see Be play their hand (1)

earlytime (15364) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010146)

I found MS's attempts to bring BeOS into the limelight quite predictable. At this point, it server two purposes, first it allows them to claim that there is strong competition isn the OS market, and secondly it puts BeOS out for mainstream review before it's really ready. BeOS is still more of a development OS than a production OS, althought at this point it clearly outshines windows as far as reliablilty and performance are concerned.
App availibility is Be's biggest problem, and if you're looking for alternatives to windows, Linux is probably the best choice right now. Be is workiong furiously to attract developers,and they're still massaging the API's to make them easier to develop for and to maintain. MS really has a great opportunity to slam Be because they don't have a strong application base, and Be knows this. Gassee say that he had an equally good opportinity to stick it to MS for anti-competitive behavior. Since MS tried to fsck them, Be fsked them back, but MUCH harder.
I can't wait to see what justice does to punish MS when the trial is over. I think the 3 companies split is the best approach cuz it forces MS to compete across the board. If you divide their product lines properly, they can't "integrate" any apps into the OS without fscking one of the other baby-bills and begging for a shareholder lawsuit. Splitting them logically, financially, and physically is the only way I see to end the abuse of power that they've been practicing for over a decaade.


I don't get it ... (1)

Todd Knarr (15451) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010147)

It might be argued that Mr. Boies should have turned over a copy of his evidence before Mr. Rose took the stand, but playing games with the discovery process is nothing new.

Depends. During discovery you're obliged to turn over things your opponent asks for or about, but you're not obliged to volunteer information he hasn't asked for. If MS didn't ask if Boies had evidence Compaq had leaked confidential information to them, AFAIK Boies is entirely within his rights not to volunteer the information. Yes, Boies ambushed Compaq and MS with this. Part of his job is to pull suprises like this if they let him set them up.

The embarrassing part is that MS's attorneys keep letting these things happen. MS has done more for the government's case than any of the government's witnesses. That's sad.

This account of Beos/Compaq/MSFT issue is not true (1)

Todd Knarr (15451) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010148)

I think the point was to provide evidence that MS has enough power and influence that a company like Compaq would feel that, if violating a non-disclosure agreement with another company would annoy MS and endanger their relationship with them, then keeping MS happy is worth the legal consequences of violating an NDA. That goes to the question of whether MS has enough power to be considered a monopoly ( albeit a bit obliquely ).

OTOH, it would be more impressive if DoJ could come up with more than a single such instance. A single instance is easily just an accident or oversight, multiple instances make a much better case.

As far as primary source material, I don't consider anything from either MS or DoJ a primary source, no matter what they claim. A copy of the transcript from some source not affiliated with any of the parties involved, that would be a good primary source.

This account of Beos/Compaq/MSFT issue is not true (1)

Todd Knarr (15451) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010149)

The characterization is misleading, yes. But, Be hasn't been involved heavily in this case ( as compared to, say, Netscape ). Boies is relying on their statements about what Compaq said to them, and I don't think Be would stick their nose in like this if they couldn't back that up, not considering the risk of annoying the judge by making claims in court you can't produce evidence to back up. So far, Boies has a pretty good track record of producing the evidence ( and MS is not happy about that at all ).

As for trusting or not trusting the validity, both MS and the DoJ have overt reasons to spin anything they present in their favor. MS, moreover, has already shown that they're willing to, under oath before a judge, misrepresent and edit evidence. If they've done that under those circumstances, I simply can't trust them not to do it again.

Hi. My name's Leo, and I like Word. ("Hi, Leo.") (1)

SoftwareJanitor (15983) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010152)

I regret to admit that I like Microsoft Word (after you turn off all the idiot "wizards" and "helpers" and that fscking paperclip!).
The last version of Word I really liked was Word 5.1a for the Mac.

I find it particularly distressing that for most purposes, I find MS Word to have gotten worse rather than better in the past two major versions. Word 97 seems slower and less useable than Word 95 which was worse than Word 6.x.

Word is, of course, shoddy, but it's damn useful.

Urk. Well, it is better than nothing I suppose.
I have not tried any of the available office software for Linux.

You probably should. Either StarOffice or ApplixOffice's word processors are quite adequate substitutes for MS Word for most purposes. Both of them even bear more than a passing cosmetic resemblance to MS-Word. I also like the Word Perfect that is available for Linux.

I tried LyX about two years ago, but found it a bit too primitive.

You might also check out other free stuff like Maxwell. The KDE (KOffice) and Gnome projects also both look like they will eventually produce usable office suites.

So I do most of my writing in (brace yourself) 'vi'.

Well, I still use 'vi' for a lot of things. But for general writing I tend to use a word processor.

If Word were to become available for Linux, I would probably buy it.

Yuck. I wouldn't. If for no other reason than Bill doesn't deserve my money. But seriously though, I wouldn't use it even if it was free. As I said before, Applix Office and StarOffice are really quite decent, especially for the money.

Bill Gates' one good accomplishment (1)

Cordova (16031) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010153)

If it weren't for Bill using mass marketing and shoving new and better, bug filled apps and OS's down the public's throat. The WWW, E-Commerce, URL's on Billboards and the public actually cozying (is that a word?) up to technology would have taken another 25 to 30 years to get to the point we are now. It may suck having to beat MS with a stick to fight this monopoly thing; but it has done one thing which benefits society. Just think what all us /.ers will be able to accomplish in our lifetimes due to Bill's abuse of the everyday lemming.


- Can't lurk all the time. -

ps. "lemming" not used in reference to anyone, and I mean anyone who would actually frequent /.

I don't get it ... (1)

bunyip (17018) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010154)

... if you or I behaved like this in front of a judge, we'd be in prison by now. Think about it! The only thing that this case will prove is that might makes right, money buys justice.

Of course not! (1)

Anonymous Shepherd (17338) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010155)

I may be bored of it sometimes, and not read the news/posts/rumors on it, but this trial is actually pretty important, even if it got started by something as inconsequential as a web browser. But then again, Al Capone got busted for tax evasion, right?

Gee, all we ever seem to get are posts from trolls(MS4ever) and idiots(Linux Rulez! M$ sux!). Hmm, a new RPG, T&I? Anyhow, I was wondering if there existed any moderates, or are they all scared off by the T&I, as well as flamers and such. Are there absolutely no sucess stories at all? Maybe this is the wrong place to ask...


Trolls, Lamers, and Flamers please ignore! (1)

Anonymous Shepherd (17338) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010156)

Of course that will probably attract all three of the above!

Oh well. Still, here's the warning; there is no need for M$4ever posts, or rulez/sux!, or general flames, bashing, or trash. Serious question...

Has any one used and been satsified by M$? Are they really just 'good enough'? Or are they not? While I generally don't approve of their tactics or their OS, they are 'good enough' for me; I use WinNT on a 200MHz PPro with 96mb of memory. I surf, email, telnet, word process, excel, photoshop, and DES/RC5, as well as use Winamp and the odd game of Civ2.

I do plan to build myself a Linux box in the future, for educational purposes and such... But for each niche their respective strengths and weaknesses. M$ just happens to be convenient, easy to learn/use, and powerful enough with a decent system. Perhaps it isn't suited for desktop publishing, or as a server of files/html/mail/etc, or as a serious multi-media processing station. But for playing around with pictures, and doing the odd html/email/ftp, or the usage of decent 3d graphics, or the programming of the small program, or the playing of games, it seems okay. That may be the biggest thing Linux has to conquer; Heck, as far as consumer growth, Apple and MacOSX has a better potential, if only because it has all the important user features as well as the future OS support...


I agree; FUD! (1)

Anonymous Shepherd (17338) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010157)

Great, not only will corporations and such have to worry about Y2k issues and bugs, they have to also deal with W2k issues and bugs; I wonder if this is just an opportunity for small startups and no names to write/port to W2k first, before bigger houses, and have access to the newer features?

Change of OS provides many new opportunites, as well as inconveniences. Of course, the new opportunites aren't really for the end users, even if that is how it is advertised... But since when have big companies cared about us end users? =)


Language (1)

dillon_rinker (17944) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010160)

And which language would that be?

That would be the language where they say "don't tell me about my spelling and grammar errors."
Someone who specifically asks that their mistakes not be pointed out fits into this category pretty well. Having said that, though, I must agree with the original sentiment; if all you can do is correct spelling or grammar, you don't have much to add to the group.

sloppy again (1)

dillon_rinker (17944) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010161)

Umm...follow your own advice :) The bit about the deal being squashed was on NPR, not online.

Sex with Linus (1)

dillon_rinker (17944) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010162)

/. seems has nothing to talk about but chew again and again this MS stuff. No wonder Linus doesn't read it, you'd better go coding or something useful.

Linus doesn't have sex with me either, but that doesn't mean I should give that up. :-D

I read /. because it's fun. I get to read things that interest me, and see the opinions of other people on those subjects. Despite some opinions to the contrary, we can't all code all the time.

I don't get it ... (1)

dillon_rinker (17944) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010163)

It might also be argued that Microsoft already knew what Microsoft had done. It's stupid to argue that the evidence is illegal because Microsoft didn't know that the govt had found out what Microsoft did. Unfortunately, that's the kind of thing that happens when you have a legal system instead of a justice system.

Trolls, Lamers, and Flamers please ignore! (1)

dillon_rinker (17944) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010164)

I did tech support for Win 95 for three years. I spoke with over 20,000 Windows users in this time. Most people who find it "good enough" don't use it often, don't push it very hard, and don't upgrade. It is acceptable if it crashes once a week or so. It needs to be rebooted daily. If it bombs in a big way, you need to reinstall the operating system; often, you need to format as well. All of this is accepted as a fact of life.

I feel that the biggest problem for Windows is that Microsoft encourages independent software vendors to replace system files willy-nilly, and to put application files in the operating system's directory. This makes any form of quality control impossible, even in theory.

Oh, and I use Win 95 for most things at home. It mostly works, I can show my wife how to use it, I can show my two and four year old how to use it. Ease-of-use is Linux's only real hurdle to OS dominance.

Its About TIME! (1)

Llewyn (17984) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010165)

microslut NEEDS this stuff......keep the Linux faith. :)

You really have to hand it to Boies... (1)

mvpel (18165) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010166)

I read an article that described his courtroom talents as inspiring to watch, and this seems to be another example.

It must have been almost poetic to watch him deftly lay the trap for Mr. Rose, and in springing it, simultaneously catching Rose in a lie and bringing the BeOS situation into evidence.

Trolls, Lamers, and Flamers please ignore! (1)

mmoore (18491) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010167)

(Please let me know when I finish what category I fall under.)

I can definatley see your point of being a "moderate"-enjoying the advantages of MS as well as Linux. You are right about one thing-Linux is struggling right now with decent 3D support, although that is something that will be conquered soon-without a service pack, or special driver that will make you re-install a pre-existing service pack (but that's a different story right?)

By reading your great success story with dealing with MS-I can only come to a few conclusions.

1. You purchased the OS for the full price from a certified MS vendor or other reseller.

2. You have never violated ANY MS licensing agreements-such as installing an MS product on someone elses machine without purchasing a valid MS license, or making copies of the software with the intent of personal use.

3. You have followed all guidelines of shareware policies, and either purchased the products or deleted them after the evaluation period was up.

If all of the above is true-then you truly are an advocate of MS-someone that Bill would be truly proud of. My OS of choice (Linux) has only one golden rule: Give credit where credit is due. Not too hard of a rule to follow.

It truly is a good thing that we always have people such as yourself to remind us that we are all trolls or lamers if we voice our opinions.

Hey! (1)

mmoore (18491) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010168)

Been a long day-Rants are good, I just did a nice little one myself. I noticed one reply to your posting about the MS/sucks comments being 80% Fad-which is true. But to reply to your posting (without sarcasm)-MS could be a usable OS, and it is "good enough" for some people-My main meaning for the three points was that it is all about money with them. All three points have nothing to do with durability-being "good enough"-or being useful in any way whatsoever-they are all about money. Microsoft has made it easy for us to become criminals (and I am sure we have all violated at least one of the mentioned). Hopefully the larger companies like Redhat and Caldera won't fall to the same fate as MS. If you remember it wasn't all that bad in the beginning-has anyone ever had a crash in DOS? I have maybe only once. It starts to get into the factor of quantity instead of quality. Linux is the better OS-you have to admit, even though most programming is running on a budget of $0. It blows my mind that they make so much money-yet apparently cannot find decent programmers to spend it on (must have promoted them from upper management). I had an NT4 machine at my home once also-for learning purposes. It actually did run OK for a while (with a one user load). But after I installed SP3-things were never the same after that-after having to reinstall in a couple of times, class was out-and so was NT4. People are probably always going to follow the FAD-you are right however-maybe we should try to focus more on how good Linux is-rather than how bad MS sucks-definately couldn't hurt.

So now BeOS sues Compaq? (1)

El (94934) | more than 15 years ago | (#2010170)

It seems to me that if Compaq signed an NDA for it's discussions with Be, than ANY mention of it's talks with Be to Micro$oft would be a violation of that NDA, regardless of whether or not M$ killed the deal. So are we now going to see Be suing Compaq?
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